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Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. The reliability of sourcing is heavily dependent upon context, so please include not only the source in question, but the article in which it is being cited, as well as links to any relevant talk page discussions or article diffs. This is a good place to get an outside perspective or a second opinion on an issue, but please use common sense; individual answers are not official policies, though an overall consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon. Do not rely on the first answer that is posted, as that answer may not reflect consensus. Please post new topics in a new section.

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Identifying reliable sources. The policies that most directly relate are: Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to the Verifiability talk page.

This noticeboard is not a place for general discussion of issues or for disputes about content.

If your question is about whether material constitutes original research, please use the No original research notice board.

If your question is about undue weight, or other neutral point of view issues please use the NPOV noticeboard.

This noticeboard deals specifically with sources, not articles. General questions about articles, including "which sources in Article X are reliable?" may be beyond the scope of this noticeboard and may be better handled on the article talk page or the talk page of an interested WikiProject.

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mako.org.au

Is the website mako.org.au ever a reliable source? It is a kind of public list of convicted (or not) criminals (" 98+% of offenders listed in the MAKO/Files Online and MAKO/Files Online- (WTC) have been convicted by a court of law."), without any kind of official backing, reputation for fact-checking, ... As this is used for extremely sensitive information (identifying paedophiles, murderers, ...), I don't believe that this source is good enough. It is currently used on 36 pages. Any ideas?

Shakespeare authorship question source

Can Terry Ross and David Kathman’s Website, The Shakespeare Authorship Page at http://shakespeareauthorship.com/ be used as a reliable source for the orthodox opinion at the Shakespeare authorship question page? Kathman is profusely published in Shakespeare studies for the past 15 years, and his article “The Question of Authorship”, concerning the Shakespeare authorship question, appears in Shakespeare: An Oxford Guide (2003), edited by well-known Shakespearean scholar Stanley Wells, and published by the Oxford University Press. In addition, according to his CV at http://shakespeareauthorship.com/kathman.html, in April 2001 he was the co-leader (with Jonathan Hope) of a seminar on “Theory and Methodology in Authorship and Attribution Studies” at the World Shakespeare Congress in Valencia, Spain. He has also discussed Shakespeare and the authorship question in newspapers and on radio, including the BBC and National Public Radio. The Web site is recommended by academics to those seeking information about the authorship question, and is referenced in several books as a reliable site for information on the topic. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, I'll note that I'm not an uninvolved commentator here, since I edit the relevant page and support Tom's view that the website should be used as a crucial resource on this issue. I think it's important to point out that Kathman is a widely published expert on Shakespeare and the Elizabethan theatre and so his website falls under the specific exception to the use of personal websites: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". Tom is correct that academics themselves reference the site, as for example in Zachary Lesser's article Mystic Ciphers in which he states that "the 'authorship debate' is for academic Shakespeareans what creationism or intelligent design is for evolutionary scientists", and notes that he always refers students to the website, which is "the best introduction to the 'debate' for the intelligent nonspecialist" (p355) The principal opponent of the use of the webpage user:Smatprt will argue that Kathman is not an established expert on the "authorship debate", because he has relatively few peer reviewed publications on that specific topic. IMO, this is an absurd argument since "authorship debate" does not exist in academia and is not part of mainstream scholarship at all. It's like arguing that Richard Dawkins' views on creationism can't be quoted, because he has not actually contributed to "creation science". In the real world of Shakespeare studies Kathman is an undoubted expert. Paul B (talk) 22:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Seems like an acceptable WP:SPS to me... like any self published source, it should be used with attribution. Dlabtot (talk) 01:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I find it distressing that Paul would first, speak for an opposing editor, then label an argument "absurd" that hasn't even been made yet. This kind of attempt to poison the well, as they say, is unfortunate. I hope that any commentators will take those comments with a grain of salt.

I also wonder why Tom and Paul feel that because some academics recommend this blog, that would make it reliable. The website is clearly a favorite of the most strident and abusive Stratfordians, the kind that ridicule and insult authorship researchers, and label them as insane nutjobs and "heretics". Kathman does the same in print and on his website - repeatedly. Any editor of this page that glances through the site, or pages 620-627 of the Wells book, can easily form their own opinion on this. In the meantime, I would like to offer the following information for consideration:

• The issue is covered extensively by the leading scholars of the day - Matus, Schoenbaum, Bates, and especially, the foremost Shakespeare scholar of our day - Stanley Wells, who has (most recently) issued a point by point rebuttal of the main arguments. In his own words " I have taken part in debates on the authorship, broadcast about it on radio and on television, and written about it in newspapers and in my own books. In general I have tried to be rational, courteous, and tolerant." With acknowledged scholars addressing the issue in every major medium, the need to rely on a self-published website/blog - especially one that has such serious problems - is simply unnecessary.

• The authorship question involves many, many disciplines - including English literature and punctuation, graphology, Palaeography , greek and latin translation, law, medicine, astronomy, etc. Kathman's website delves into all these areas as if he were an expert in everything. Quoting from it would be entirely inappropriate. If there is anything in his book on apprentices that is appropriate for these pages, I have no objection, but nothing I have found (and I have looked) establishes Kathman as an expert on Shakespeare or the multiple issues involved in authorship studies.

• The two references provided by Paul above are not convincing as to establishing expert status. The lone book does indeed establish Kathman as an expert on the Apprentice system during the 1500's. In fact, the Kathman CV mentioned above states "I've done extensive archival research focused on livery companies, apprenticeship, and places other than playhouses (such as inns and taverns) where plays were performed in sixteenth-century London". This hardly establishes Kathman as a RS on Shakespeare or the more refined subject of Authorship studies.

• The CV also mentions Kathman have written "two chapters (on "Players, Livery Companies, and Apprentices" and "Innyard Playhouses") forthcoming in the Oxford Handbook on Theatre History. Again, I think it is clear where his expert status applies. In fact, on Project Muse, the list of Kathman's publications ] total 3 book reviews and the book on Apprentices. Hardly extensive and certainly does not establish him as an expert on Shakespeare or the authorship.

• Kathman's "chapter" in Wells' Shakespeare: An Oxford Guide, consists of 7 pages devoted to the authorship question being debated here - 7 pages, that's it. In it he offers no new research, compares the issue to UFO's, and throws around labels such s "heretics" "debasing", "elitism" and attacks such as "Oxfordians typically twist". He also makes numerous unsupported statements that, from a scholarly standpoint, are impossible to prove (and would never be made by a real scholar). Yet he states them as fact (page 626 for example, states beyond doubt when both Lear and Tempest were written (impossible to prove and orthodox scholars are still arguing about them). On page 627 he advocates the theory that Shakespeare was not well educated - an old theory that has clearly been disproved. Also on page 627 he states that there is no evidence that Oxford and the Earl of Southampton knew each other - an interesting assertion since Oxford's daughter was engaged to the man. And the list of inaccuracies goes on and on. If this represents what Wells would approve, can you imagine the kinds of statements he makes on his blog - with no peer review, no editor, and no need to cite sources?

I think I have laid out my objections fairly clearly. I look forward to hearing the thoughts of the uninvolved editors on this page and will certainly clarify any of the information I have brought forward. Thanks for your consideration. Smatprt (talk) 02:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The argument I labelled absurd has been made repeatedly by you, so don't be disingenous. And there is nothing wrong in supporting another's editor's POV. As for the notion that Kathman's views are on the 'lunatic fringe' to use Crum's characterisation of your claims, that is absurd indeed. Only someone who truly is on the lunatic fringe would think that. As I and Tom have pointed out with evidence, the site is recommended by experts. I challenge any uninvolved editor here to read the website and to assess Kathmen's method of argment. I am convinced that that they will find nothing whatever to justify Smatprt's bizarre portrayal of it as an extremist "blog" that accuses opponents of being "insane nutjobs and 'heretics'". Paul B (talk) 09:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to admit, I'm a bit confused by this entire discussion. Perhaps that is because editors Barlow and Reedy are so much more well versed in the wikipedia canons of sourcing than I, but it had been my impression that the standard for inclusion was peer review or some similar certification of authority. David Kathman and David Ross's website is just that -- a website started by two individuals. As for citing the fact that in other, more academic, contexts David Kathman has been published, well the same certainly goes for myself, and for quite a number of other Oxfordians, for instance WSU's Michael Delahoyde, who in fact is an editor of the Rocky Mountain Review of Languages and Literature (published by the NW MLA), as well as operating a nice website featuring Oxfordian perspectives. If we are matching academic qualifications, Delahoyde's leave Kathman and Ross in the dust. So, if this wikipedia page is going to include Kathman and Ross's site as a source of authority, simple logic dictates the following sites must also be included as authoritative with respect to their contents:

http://www.shakespearefellowship.org

http://www.shake-speares-bible.com

http://www.shakespearestempest.com

http://wsu.edu/~delahoyd/shakespeare/

And, certainly, http://www.briefchronicles.com, the content of which are, of course, entirely peer reviewed.

There are, I'm sure, more that meet the same test.

Paul, here is a friendly suggestion: when you post comments which are full of basic spelling errors, you greatly diminish your authority as an editor of this page. I'm spelling-challenged myself, but the wiki gurus have supplied you with a spellchecker for this composing space. Why don't you use it? When you don't use it, you look like someone who doesn't care about correct usage, or about the wikipedia community standards. Is that how you want to come across. --131.118.144.253 (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC) (Ben Jonson)

These remarks exemplify the resons why we have WP:RS. Even leaving aside the infantile comments about spelling, always a sign of desperation, we have in both user:Smatprt and 131.118.144.253 (user:Ben Jonson) examples of the claim "I know better than experts, so experts must be overridden". That's why WP:RS and WP:V were introduced in the first place: some editors thought that they could "disprove" experts by force of argument, putting forth their own pet, usually fringe, theories on main pages. Both these editors epitomise this POV, declaring that they can show that Kathman is stupid and that professor Stanley Wells is incompetent. Screeds of WP:OR are introduced to support this. But this board is not for evaluating such claims (rebuttals would take too long). Indeed, we have RS policy precisely to ensure we do not get into such arguments. Ultimately, it does not matter whether Kathman, Wells, or Uncle Tom Cobbley are right or wrong; what matters is whether or not we can properly say what they argue. There is not justification whatever for suppressing the views of a respected and published scholar in the relevant field. Paul B (talk) 20:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, it seems to me that the source meets the SPS "expert" exclusion as RS, since we accept "expert in the field" fairly broadly. But the issue may boil down to WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, not RS. If, as User:Smatprt seems to argue, his opinions are on the remote lunatic fringe, they should not be mentioned at all. If he is just a small but visible minority, then his views should be presented as such, with the appropriate weighting. In all cases, if his views are mentioned, they should be directly attributed to him (in-text attribution). Crum375 (talk) 03:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Smatprt’s first two points—that he is being treated unfairly and that Kathman is abusive (in Smatprt’s opinion) to anti-Stratfordians—have no bearing on whether the Web site is a reliable source. (In fact, Smatprt tries to make the very argument that Paul said he would: that Kathman is not an expert on the Shakespeare authorship question.)

• I find it a strange argument that seeks to limit sources because other academics have also written on the topic. As I have argued at the talk page, there are literally thousands of anti-Stratfordian books and articles—all of which, by the way, promoting a fringe theory that Shakespeare didn’t write his works—but very few works refuting them, because, as Paul points out, it’s not really considered an academic subject by orthodox scholars. David Kathman is a well-known and often-quoted independent scholar (one only has to search his name on Google Scholar to find out) whom academics trust for information on the Shakespeare authorship issue. I don’t know how long Smatprt has been interested in the topic, but Kathman has been writing on the issue for 15 years or better.

• Also, whether Kathman does original research on the authorship question is beside the point. He doesn’t have to be an expert on English literature and punctuation, graphology, paleography, Greek and Latin translation, law, medicine and astronomy. He is a tertiary source, that is, he researches the academic Shakespeare literature to put together arguments that refute anti-Stratfordian claims. My understanding is that those types of sources are preferred for encyclopedia articles, and in any case none of the sources used by Smatprt can be considered experts on anything. His most oft-quoted source, Charlton Ogburn, was a military man, not a literary scholar or historian, and is considered by most academics to be a crackpot.

• Smatprt’s summation of Kathman’s scholarly work is deceptive. Kathman has numerous publications about Shakespeare and Early Modern theater to his credit, as both Google and Google Scholar searches attest. He is also the author of the Biographical Index of English Drama Before 1660, an on-line resource that is cited in such scholarly publications as The Cambridge Introduction to Early English Theatre.

• And how exactly would Smatprt know what arguments “would never be made by a real scholar”? Most of the sources he uses at the Shakespeare authorship question page are only allowed because the topic is a fringe theory, which allows all sorts of otherwise unreliable sources to be used simply because there are no other.

• Finally, I believe Crum375 is confused by Smatprt’s representation. Kathman represents the scholarly consensus, not the lunatic fringe. It is the anti-Stratfordian theory that is a fringe theory, not the orthodox view. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Reedy, anyone who compares Kathman's arguments about, for example, The Tempest, as made , with those of Stritmatter and Kositsky, , cannot fail to see that the length of time that David Kathman has been opining on the authorship question is irrelevant to the question of his reliability. His mistakes in his online Tempest article are in retrospect both obvious and gratuitous, the the sort of errors that only a poorly advised undergraduate or a someone who knows better but believes that the ends justify the means, would commit. Kathman's errors are only underscored by the fact that, although Stritmatter and Kositky's rebuttal has been posted online for FIVE YEARS now, he has not responded to it. Really, who the heck does David Kathman think he is? He posts material on his internet site which has been if not entirely discredited, at least called into serious doubt by any reasonable standard of scholarship, and he leave his original article unmodified, without even providing his readers to a post to the critical response. And yet, at the same time, given the opportunity he attacks one of the two others of the critique as someone with "pretensions to scholarship." This is not scholarship. This is not even "pretense." Its self-serving ideological obstinance of the most pathetic sort.--131.118.144.253 (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC) (Ben Jonson)

Now that you've vented your spleen, counted coup on your hated enemy, and touted your own expertise, I suggest you read the guidelines at the top of the page about what is relevant to this discussion. 19:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

• • I was not confused by it, I simply used Smatprt's view as an example. I said that the SPS appears to be a RS, and it is up to the editors of the page to decide how to classify and handle it, per WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Crum375 (talk) 15:36, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Apologies for my mistake. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Writing seven pages on this drivel and correctly comparing it to other crackpot theories seems to qualify as extensive writing on this topic. The source seems to meet WP:RS as a WP:SPS. I'd also note that WP:BLP applies here, and WP:NPA, so no more personal attacks such as those by 131.118.144.253 please. Verbal chat 21:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I assume you are also condemning the personal attacks made here today by both Tom and Paul? And the attempted outing by Tom (a severe non, no)! If so, I heartily agree! Smatprt (talk) 23:05, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, I too think the website qualifies as a reliable source for the authorship article because:

1. Kathman is a published expert in Shakespeare studies (see last sentence of WP:PARITY for why restricting scholarship to "Shakespeare authorship studies" is not warranted),
2. We have other scholars attesting to the value of the website,

Of course, whenever possible peer reviewed and reputable publications should be preferred in the article, and the content should be adequately attributed, but using the website as a source is consistent with WP:RS requirements. Abecedare (talk) 23:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

There are literally thousands of reliable, extremely high quality sources on everything related to Shakespeare. Therefore there is no reason whatsoever to rely on a WP:SPS in this case. It should not be used. Jayjg 02:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayig, this is a fringe theory. Academics don't publish articles rebutting specific arguments in these texts. Yes, there is a huge amount written on Shakespeare in standard scholarship, but not on this. Really. If you can provide evidence for your claim, fine. But if Tom, who specialises in this, can't find these "thousands" of books and articles, I doubt you can. Paul B (talk) 18:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

There are literally thousands of reliable, extremely high quality sources on everything related to Shakespeare, except for the authorship theory, because the overwhelming majority of professional and amateur Shakespeareans alike consider it a fringe theory with no convincing evidence. Academics don't write about things they don't accept as valid scholastic topics.

FTFY. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, this is incorrect. The top Shakespearean scholars of the day have written about the Shakespeare authorship issue. Matus has, Hope has, Schoenbaum has and, most importantly, the great Stanley Wells has. In Wells' own words: "I have taken part in debates on the authorship, broadcast about it on radio and on television, and written about it in newspapers and in my own books. In general I have tried to be rational, courteous, and tolerant." I will add that it's not about quantity - it's about quality, and these four top scholars, among others, certainly represent the top quality sources one could ever hope to find. In addition, mainstream scholars McMichael and Glenn published "Shakespeare and his Rivals - A Casebook on the Authorship Controversy" in which they document the issue with verifiable historical data, rebut at length the top contenders Oxford, Bacon and Marlowe, and make the case for why Shakespeare of Stratford is the mainstream choice. To say there are no high quality reliable sources on the authorship issue is simply inaccurate. Jayjg is correct. Smatprt (talk) 19:41, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Tom is having such trouble finding reliable sources. I took me 30 seconds to find this lengthy article ].Smatprt (talk) 20:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

No-one disputes that sources exist. What is in dispute is that they exist in sufficient numbers, and that all specific anti-Statfordian claims are addressed by them in sufficient detail. Paul B (talk) 11:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

And I'm not sure why you seem to think this issue is about how many reliable sources there are or aren't out there or why you misrepresent my motivation. I want to get it settled whether we can use the Web site. I haven't challenged any of the Web sites you use because I don't care what you use to support anti-Stratfordism--in fact, the nuttier the better is the way I feel about it. Why you fear Kathman's Web site so much, when it is routinely recommended by academics and even in published academic books, I have no idea. And I daresay you could count all the pages of the academic response to anti-Stratfordism and they'd still be less than the two Ogburn door stops. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The Kathman-Ross website should not be considered a reliable source because the so-called "expert opinions" expressed there are not kept current. The field of authorship studies is dynamic, with new articles on research, arguments and perspectives published all the time. Yet the Kathman-Ross website takes no notice of any of this. Kathman has said repeatedly that his mind is made up, and he has moved on to other topics. As a result, to take one example, the section of their website on The Tempest is very out of date. They ignore the work of Stritmatter and Kositsky (metioned above). They ignore Nina Green's refutation of their claim that The Tempest is based on the Strachey letter. Her refutation, titled "David Kathman’s false parallels between the Strachey letter, the Jourdain account, the anonymous True Declaration and Shakespeare’s The Tempest" is at the bottom of the documents page on her site at: http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/documents.html. This refutation was brought to Kathman's attention, yet he has ignored it, as if it did not exist. Books are immutable, but there's a presumption that a website regarded as a "reliable source" will be kept reasonably up to date. This is not true in the case of the Kathman-Ross website. They have made it clear that they are closed-minded ideologues who no longer pay attention to others' views, and do not take them into account on their website. That being the case, their website should not be regarded as a reliable source for purposes of determining the current state of orthodox views. Schoenbaum (talk) 05:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:SPS is the policy to be applied here, and nothing you've written seems at all relevant. Dlabtot (talk) 00:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Summarizing policy/guidelines here:

1. Everything notable about Shakespeare, including who wrote the plays, has been covered by many, many, high quality, reliable, non-self-published sources.
2. Misplaced Pages does not include fringe theories in its articles, per WP:FRINGE, WP:REDFLAG, WP:UNDUE. If a fringe theory is inserted into an article whose topic is covered by many high-quality reliable sources, one does not rely on a WP:SPS to refute it. Instead, one removes the fringe theory.

Is anything unclear about that? Jayjg 01:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's very unclear to me how you can say "Misplaced Pages does not include fringe theories in its articles". Here's the very first sentence from WP:FRINGE: "This guideline advises which fringe theories and opinions may be included in Misplaced Pages, and to a certain extent how those articles should approach their subjects."

In fact, the entire Shakespeare authorship question article is about a fringe theory, and I doubt it's going to be removed anytime soon. It's an authentic phenomenon and probably the grand-daddy of all conspiracy theories. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

If a fringe theory is discussed in reliable sources, such as Holocaust denial or Moon landing conspiracy theories, then of course Misplaced Pages can describe them, in the articles on the fringe theories. However, even there, Misplaced Pages must rely or reliable sources for any claims and rebuttals. Not just any proponent or advocate of a fringe theory can be documented in a Misplaced Pages article, even one on a fringe theory. WP:V and WP:RS still apply. In the case of Shakespeare, and even of fringe theories regarding him, the Reliable Sources are so abundant that we need not and should not rely on WP:SPS. Jayjg 22:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm still a bit confused by your syntax, but never mind; it's enough to know that you oppose the site as a reliable source. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we are talking about two different subjects here. Jayjg's example would apply to an article like William Shakespeare, where the authorship issue is mentioned very very briefly. If it were given abundant space there, WP:Undue would apply. Whereas significant notable fringe theories (which by Wiki's very broad standards include theories that "depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study" as well as "hypotheses, conjectures, or speculations") are covered in their own articles. What we are talking about in this section is what is whether Kathman's website is RS for the authorship article. Thanks. Smatprt (talk) 14:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly so, Smarprt, that is what I was referring to. Jayjg 22:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Well I suppose I was confused about why you would give the example for an article such as William Shakespeare when we're discussing the article Shakespeare authorship question. Regardless, Paul's point is still relevant. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we know what we are talking about, but Jayig's evident confusion about the relevant policy renders his judgement questionable. He dogmatically asserts that "Everything notable about Shakespeare, including who wrote the plays, has been covered by many, many, high quality, reliable, non-self-published sources" And yet he provides no evidence that this is the case. In any case this is irrelevant to the question of whether or not Kathman's site meets the exception. Even if other sources existed it would have no bearing on that specific issue. If other published sources existed for the relevant points we would, of course, use them in preference, but what is at issue is the legitimacy of using Kathamn where necessary. 16:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no"confusion about the relevant policy"; mind your manners. Now, are you actually claiming that the issue of "authorship" has not been discussed by many reliable sources? Including the ones already mentioned above? Jayjg 22:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Since you made a clearly false statement ("Misplaced Pages does not include fringe theories in its articles"), I beg to differ about the confusion. So far you have failed to justify your claim that there is extensive discussion of authorship issue in RS. Even if there were, it would be irrelevant to the specific question of the usability of the Kathman site. This kind of issue crops up a lot on this board. Say Richard Dawkins makes a comment on his website which an editor wishes to use. The specific point may not have been made elsewhere, despite the seeming mountains of creation/evolution literature. It is up to the editors to decide whether it is worth using. This board is for determining whether it can be, not for saying "there must be other sources". Paul B (talk) 04:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

An incomplete statement is not "clearly false". In general Misplaced Pages does not include fringe theories in its articles. Yes, as with every rule, there are exceptions; in this case, that Misplaced Pages allows discussion of fringe theories in articles about those theories, as long as reliable sources discuss those theories, and the article is sourced to those reliable sources. Also, I'd like to see you state here that the authorship issue is not extensively discussed in reliable sources. Please refer to Smarprt's comment above of 19:41, 4 February 2010 before responding. If you're looking for other sources refuting the "Shakespeare wasn't the author of the plays" theories, would you argue that this WP:SPS website complies more closely with Misplaced Pages's WP:RS guideline than, say, Scott McCrea's The case for Shakespeare: the end of the authorship question? Jayjg 02:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I note that you are not answering the question, merely stating what has never been disputed by anyone - that there are some reliable sources from mainstream authors on this issue. This is a truth universally acknowledged, and not pertinent to the issue under dispute. Paul B (talk) 23:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

In what way are these reliable sources inadequate, such that we must loosen the WP:RS guidelines and rely on a WP:SPS? Please give an explicit example. Jayjg 00:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

We don't have to "loosen" anything. We have a specific exception that is part of the rules by which we operate. If you don't agree with the existence of WP:SPS then lobby to change the policy. That exception exists for a reason. There are practical reasons for using the website - everyone can read it and affirm its contents. Other literature is much less accessible. Sometimes it might be desirable to footnote both the site and a "dead tree" text. There are specific arguments that are made on the site that are not readily to be found elsewhere - such as the discussion of the Queen Elizabeth portrait. Paul B (talk) 12:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you have an inflated view of the number of reliable sources there are rebutting anti-Stratfordism, but it is far from "many." Yes, several notable scholars have done so (although I have no idea what Smatprt is talking about when he says Stanley Wells has made a point-by-point rebuttal; if he has, I don't know of it), but books devoted to refuting the anti-Shakespeare claim such as McCrea's are rare. In fact, I can think of only two others: Irv Matus's Shakespeare, In Fact (1997) and the soon-to-be-published Contested Will, by James Shapiro. Yes, other notable Shakespeareans have written about it: S. Schoenbaum wrote a 65-page survey of the phenomenon (without refuting the claims) in his 600+ page Shakespeare's Lives (1970, 1991); Jonathan Bate gave it 35 pages in his The Genius of Shakespeare (1998); Harold Love uses it as an example of how not to do it in his primer, Attributing Authorship (2002); and Stanley Wells gives it a scant 18 pages in his Is It True What they Say About Shakespeare? (2007). Total up all the pages and I doubt they'll amount to 1 percent of the amount of anti-Stratfordian literature that has been published in the past 150 years, all of which is still cherry-picked by anti-Stratfordians to give their movement a gloss of scholarship. Nor do most of them directly address particular anti-Stratfordian or Oxfordian claims in detail the way Kathman does on his Web site, Matus being the exception.

I think that these three topics from the WP:FRINGE page might be appropriate, especially the sentence, "If independent sources only comment on the major points of a fringe theory, an article that devotes the majority of its space to minor points that independent sources do not cover in detail may be unbalanced."

It appears to me that we have a consensus that Kathman's Web site is a reliable source, but I thought that these points would help in assuring the independent editors that the decision stretches none of Misplaced Pages's policies. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, there's no consensus on that. Now, are you saying that there are reliably sourced theories of alternate Shakespeare authorship that are not responded in Matus's Shakespeare, In Fact or McCrea's The case for Shakespeare: the end of the authorship question? Keep in mind, we're not talking about an authorship theory on some website somewhere, but rather a theory that's attested to by multiple reliable sources. Jayjg 23:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom wrote nothing whatever about "reliably sourced theories of alternate Shakespeare authorship". He was describing reliably sourced rebuttals of theories of alternate Shakespeare authorship. And no one has ever disupted that these exist. What matters is that they do not address some specific issues that Kathman addresses. Their existence is not pertient to the question at issue here. Paul B (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Apparently your idea of what a consensus is and mine are different; it is not a synonym for unanimity.

As to your question, there are no reliably sourced theories of alternate Shakespeare authorship and I have never said there were; they are all creatures of fantasy. I think you're confused about the topic, based on your question, or perhaps misread my statement.

The issue at hand is the reliability of David Kathman's Web site based on his expertise and scholastic reputation. His site does not espouse any alternate authorship theory. Four uninvolved editors have said it is a reliable source used in accordance with Misplaced Pages guidelines. You've said it shouldn't be used, but not for reasons based on the content of the site nor an assessment of his expertise. And I was also under the impression that this is not a place for general discussion of issues or for disputes about content. Tom Reedy (talk) 00:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

To begin with, this is not a "general discussion of issues or for disputes about content". I don't see how it could be, in fact, since we have discussed no specific content. However, Reliable Source assessment has to be taken in context of the topic itself, which is what we are doing. The general quality and availability of reliable sources related to, say, World War II is vastly higher than those related to, say, Pokémon. Thus an opinion piece in the Los Angeles Times that mentions World War II might not be considered reliable for that article, but might be one of the most reliable sources available for the Pokémon article. Second, you say I reject Kathman's website "not for reasons based on the content of the site nor an assessment of his expertise". The issue here is not whether he qualifies as an expert WP:SPS, but whether we should be using WP:SPS in articles related to Shakespeare. Finally, regarding your statement that "there are no reliably sourced theories of alternate Shakespeare authorship", please refer back to my comments of 01:30, 5 February 2010 and 22:14, 5 February 2010. If reliable sources don't discuss a fringe theory, then it has no place on Misplaced Pages. Not in a general article, nor in an article on fringe theories. When Misplaced Pages discusses Holocaust denial, it does so based on reliable secondary sources, not based on the contents of Holocaust denial websites or publications. Now, what I think you're trying to say is that there are certain fringe theories that are not discussed in reliable secondary sources, but are discussed on Kathman's website. Is that correct? Jayjg 01:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but for the life of me I don't have a clue about what you're getting at, and I have a post-graduate degree in English. Would some other editor please tell me what Jayjg is asking for? The only fringe theory discussed on Kathman's Web site is anti-Stratfordism, which is what the Misplaced Pages article we are discussing is about.

As for your contention that Misplaced Pages only uses reliable secondary sources to discuss a fringe theory, I beg to differ. The only support for the anti-Stratfordian side at the Shakespeare authorship question page is anti-Stratfordian websites and publications, which are intrinsically polemic publications promoting their fringe theories. The only reliable sources that discuss the theory for alternate Shakespeare authorship are those debunking it, such as Kathman's Web site and the books I listed above. If you go to the page in question, you will see that it is not an encyclopedia article at all, but more a debate about the relative merits of each side. Before I began editing there in mid-December, it was largely a propaganda piece for anti-Stratfordians. If I had my way, it would be cut down at least in half, with none of the point-counter point style of debate that is there now. The Oxfordian theory and Baconian theory Misplaced Pages entries are also nothing more than promotional screeds for their fringe beliefs that are largely ignored by regular editors. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom, looking through your edit history, I now realize that you've really only edited a tiny number of articles, almost all related to Shakespeare. In fact, of your 617 Mainspace edits, 262 (42.5%) have been to William Shakespeare, and 239 (38.7%) to Shakespeare authorship question, or over 80% of your edits to just two articles. So perhaps it would be helpful if I went over some of the basics here.

O.K., Tom, to begin with, Misplaced Pages has a verifiability policy, which says that, as regards Misplaced Pages articles, "Any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." Another important point in the policy is that "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." The latter is quite significant, and often trips up inexperienced editors. It doesn't matter what any editor believes to be the truth, since opinions on that will vary wildly; instead, what matters is that we can verify that material was taken from reliable sources.

In addition, Misplaced Pages has a related reliable sources guideline, which gives editors guidelines as to which sources Misplaced Pages considers to be reliable. As you review the guideline, it is important to note that it does not claim any specific source or type of source is 100% reliable; rather, it gives a general description of types of sources, explaining which are more reliable, and which are less reliable. Note also in the Overview the statement "Proper sourcing always depends on context". One of the implications of that statement is (as I explained in my previous comment) that a source that might be considered very reliable in one context might be considered less reliable in another. And finally, please note that the definition of how reliable a source is doesn't depend on the specific views held by a source, or on whether or not we agree with them, but on a number of other factors typically relating to editorial oversight of one kind or another. Self published sources are typically denigrated in this context, as it is obvious that when one self-publishes, one need not answer to any editorial process, whether peer review, or merely the typical editorial oversight provided by a reputable publishing house. This can also be confusing for inexperienced editors.

Now, in relation to your question about reliable sourcing, as I explained in my previous comment, "If reliable sources don't discuss a fringe theory, then it has no place on Misplaced Pages. Not in a general article, nor in an article on fringe theories." Keep in mind, here we are talking about reliable sources according to Misplaced Pages's definition, not what you may personally consider to be reliable. For example, the Holocaust denial article does not explain what Holocaust denial is by pointing to a series of Holocaust denying websites or books and describing their contents. That is because such sources are not reliable (by Misplaced Pages's definition). Instead, the article relies on reliable secondary sources that discuss Holocaust denial. This is also the editorial policy Wikipedians must follow when editing the Shakespeare authorship question article; one cannot use unreliable sources to describe the topic, but must stick to reliable ones.

Next, regarding your statement that "As for your contention that Misplaced Pages only uses reliable secondary sources to discuss a fringe theory, I beg to differ." You are no doubt correct in a narrow technical sense, in that many Misplaced Pages articles (unfortunately) do not yet conform with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. That is not, however, an indication that they need not do so! Rather, it merely indicates that they have not yet been brought into conformance with guideline and policy. Bringing sources here for discussion is one part of that process.

Next, I feel confident that there are fairly reliable sources that discuss the Shakespeare authorship question; indeed, we have already mentioned several. What you appear to be saying is that many "Shakespeare authorship"-related articles currently rely on unreliable sources to discuss their topics. Is that correct? If so, those sources should be removed, and the material based on them either sourced to reliable sources, or also removed, if no reliable sources can be found. Please remember, however, that when we say "reliable sources" we mean "sources that comply with WP:RS", not merely sources we agree with or believe to be telling the truth.

Finally, regarding the self-published website you wish to use, you have not presented any compelling evidence that Misplaced Pages need relax its sourcing requirements specifically to rebut "Shakespeare authorship" theories. Perhaps you can provide an example of a specific claim made in the Shakespeare authorship question article that you think you need Kathman's website to rebut. Jayjg 00:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate you taking the time to explain, because you are right, I describe myself more as a Shakespearean than a Wikipedian, and I'm unfamiliar with many Misplaced Pages policies, although by the reading I have been doing it seems to me that common sense is pretty much followed in those policies.

My statement about Misplaced Pages allowing unreliable sources to discuss fringe theories was confined to the articles discussing anti-Stratfordism, such as the Shakespeare authorship question, the Oxfordian theory article, and the Baconian theory article. All of them most certainly do explain their topics by pointing to a series of polemical anti-Stratfordian books or websites and describing their contents, as is evident to anyone who peruses the sites, so I assume these are the types of articles you are talking about that do not yet conform with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Am I correct in that assumption? Or do I still misunderstand Misplaced Pages's policies on reliable sources?

Since it has been established that David Kathman is an expert on the subject, having been published on the subject by leading university presses (you can't get much better than Oxford UP), led seminars on the topic at world conferences, and whose opinion on the topic is sought out by the media, I really don't understand why I would need to provide an example of a specific claim where I would need to use his website, since he is obviously "an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", as per WP:SPS policy. Currently I don't have any edits that rely solely on Kathman's site. However, I happen to have one that is discussed here, which is the discussion that beget this opinion request. But once the rebuttal was fully understood, the relevant material in the section was deleted by the opposition (for lack of a better word) editors, rather than face such effective refutation. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom's view on why the small section in question was deleted is certainly... interesting, but more on point - I think he is still mistaken as to what is considered a reliable source here on Wiki. In relation to the authorship question (which, while debatable, can also be classified as a significant minority viewpoint), there have been numerous third-party publications that, do in fact represent both sides of the debate. The mainstream opinion has been held up by the examples we have already mentioned. The minority viewpoint has been researched and published in several RS books including those by Ogburn, Michell, Price, Sobran and Anderson, for example. As Jayjg so wisely noted, "Please remember, however, that when we say "reliable sources" we mean "sources that comply with WP:RS", not merely sources we agree with or believe to be telling the truth". We know that Tom does not agree with the authors I just mentioned, but they are RS according to wiki policy, as are academic and peer-reviewed journals (even if Tom does not agree with them), finished PhD dissertation which are publicly available (such as that by Dr. Stritmatter on Oxford's Geneva Bible), as well as major news organizations and third-party documentary producers (the type that do fact-checks). We should also note this section of the policy - "Primary Sources are not OR but "source-based research" and is essential to writing an encyclopedia". One has to be careful in applying this, but it does have applications here. I hope that helps to clarify the situation.Smatprt (talk) 22:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Whether third-party publications or no, all but one of the sources you list are promotional texts for the anti-Stratfordian theory, not research on the "minority viewpoint." It would be interesting to how they would fare on this board as reliable sources, especially Ogburn, who is the second most important prophet of Oxfordism, right behind Looney. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow - you just don't get it. That would be like saying Wells, Matus & Schoenbaum are merely promotional texts for the Stratfordian theory. Will you ever understand that it's not about whether you agree with what they say or not? Smatprt (talk) 04:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are the clueless one. Read Jayjg's comment directly above mine. Note the sentence, "For example, the Holocaust denial article does not explain what Holocaust denial is by pointing to a series of Holocaust denying websites or books and describing their contents." Both Holocaust denial and anti-Stratfordism are fringe theories, as even you admit. Now substitute "Shakespeare authorship question" for "Holocaust denial" in the statement: "For example, the Shakespeare authorship question article does not explain what the Shakespeare authorship question is by pointing to a series of Shakespeare authorship questioning websites or books and describing their contents." As anybody who peruses the references at the article can see, it most certainly does that. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, the next step we would take would be to examine one or two of the sources used to describe the "anti-Stratford" theories. Presumably Smatprt considers them to conform with WP:RS, which Tom Reedy does not. Smatprt, could you bring one or two examples of "alternative authorship" sources you consider to conform to WP:RS? Jayjg 20:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure - in keeping with this (from policy on Fringe Theories) "fringe theory proponents are excellent sources for describing what they believe", the two main sources that describe anti-strat theories would be:

• J. Thomas Looney Shakespeare Identified in Edward de Vere, Seventeenth Earl of Oxford. (London: Cecil Palmer, 1920). 1446 pages "'Shakespeare' Identified". ISBN 0-804-61877-1 (The first book to promote the Oxford theory.)
• Charlton Ogburn The Mysterious William Shakespeare: The Man Behind the Mask. (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1984). ISBN 0-939-00967-6 (Influential book that criticises orthodox scholarship and promotes the Oxford theory).

Please note that in keeping with the above mentioned policy ("the best sources to use when determining the notability and prominence of fringe theories are independent sources"), the sources abore are not used to discuss the prominence or notability of the theories, only to describe the theories themselves.Smatprt (talk) 17:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

O.K. Looney's a pretty old work, and he was a school-teacher. While he might have some notoriety, it's not clear that the source is particularly reliable. Ogburn appears to be a freelance writer of popular (not scholarly) works. It would be hard to classify either of them as an expert, or particularly reliable source, when it comes to the topic of Shakespeare. Jayjg 23:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

We've already established on the William Shakespeare page that on the general topic neither are R.S., and I was not saying that they would be RS in any such way. The article is Shakespeare Authorship Question and they are used to describe their appropriate theories of authorship , nothing more. Sorry - was I not clear about that? Smatprt (talk) 00:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

To the contrary of what you are now claiming, you were clear that these were RS. Read your post above: "The minority viewpoint has been researched and published in several RS books including those by Ogburn, Michell, Price, Sobran and Anderson, for example." Tom Reedy (talk) 01:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The question you were asked was "Smatprt, could you bring one or two examples of "alternative authorship" sources you consider to conform to WP:RS?" You provided sources that do not conform to WP:RS, but to specific exceptions under WP:FRINGE. In other words you did not answer the question. Paul B (talk) 01:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Smarprt, the point I have been trying to make for some time now is that there are no exceptions to the WP:RS rules, even in articles that discuss WP:FRINGE topics. A Misplaced Pages article that discusses alternative theories of Shakespeare authorship must still cite only reliable sources. Just because the topic of a fringe theory may be encyclopedic, it doesn't therefore allow the article to cite any fringe source that happens to discuss that theory. Jayjg 02:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for being clear. However, what you are saying is in opposition to the stated policies that say what fringe writers are the best source for what they "believe". Now this still requires third-party publishers and not self-published material. Your position is also in opposition to the judgement of mainstream senior wiki editors who repeatedly advised, during the William Shakespeare FA process, that Ogburn was not RS on thw Shakespeare page, but only on the Authorship related pages, as he is clearly and expert in the area of Authorship studies, as well as one of the more recent researchers who have been published by major printing houses (those with reputations for quality and fact checking). I'm not sure what else to say on this. The related policies seem pretty clear and have been stated so for the several years that I have been editing.Smatprt (talk) 04:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Smatprt, I'm not sure which stated policies you think this is in opposition to, but you cannot get around WP:V and WP:RS. You must still use reliable sources to describe what fringe writers believe, and that generally excludes directly quoting or citing the fringe writers themselves. Jayjg 06:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, there is this one from wp:fringe "fringe theory proponents are excellent sources for describing what they believe" (which is qualified to note that independent sources are required to discuss the "notability" of the theory. And then there is this one from WP:PARITY - "In an article on a fringe topic, if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by amateurs and self-published texts, verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer reviewed journal or other reliable sources." Now I'm not suggesting using amateurs or self-published texts but this policy obviously allows for that particular instance. This makes your comments even harder to understand as this seems to be saying that amateur and self-published texts can also be used, but if it is, then criticism of the theory can also come from sources that are not considered reliable.

Weird. Well, policies take precedence over guidelines, and a guideline can't create a special loophole for itself that contradicts WP:V. I understand that there is a great desire among some Wikipedians to debunk fringe theories, to the extent that they have, at times, demanded special exemptions from the WP:NOR policy, or, as was apparently done here, a special exemption from the WP:V policy. These exemptions, however, are neither permitted nor required. If reliable sources don't discuss any aspect of fringe theory, then that aspect of the theory simply does not belong on Misplaced Pages. One needs no special exemption to rebut something that does not belong on Misplaced Pages to begin with. Jayjg 22:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Summary of discussion so far

So far, the opinion request on whether Terry Ross and David Kathman’s Shakespeare Authorship Page can be used as a reliable source has resulted in comments by five uninvolved editors. Four of them, Dlabtot, Crum375, Verbal, and Abecedare, say it is an acceptable source within WP:SPS guidelines. One of them, Jayjg, says it is not.

It appears to me the consensus is to use it. Is that about it? Tom Reedy (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. I have neither stated nor implied that the article should be deleted. Please review this policy, particularly item 2d. Please also modify your post accordingly, and don't attribute to me desires I have neither stated nor implied. Jayjg 22:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. I misunderstood your position. There's no reason to be snippy; it was an honest mistake, as evidenced by another editor's misapprehension also. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:53, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Consensus is not about vote counting. It's about (if at all possible) building a consensus from all interested parties. It implies give and take. And sometimes, it relies on compromise. You really need a major course on wiki terminology and definitions. For starters see WP:DEFINECONSENSUS. Smatprt (talk) 04:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

You're correct, I am not near as expert in Misplaced Pages guidelines as almost anybody here. At that site it also says consensus is not unanimity. For the record, what would you say the consensus is among the five uninvolved editors right now? Tom Reedy (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Could anybody explain to me why this source, http://wsu.edu/~delahoyd/shakespeare/vere.html, is reliable, while Kathman's is not? Very little on this page is referenced, and he offers suppositions as fact throughout. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The site with the .edu prefix? That would be a university website and as such, is presumed to have be under academic oversight or review.

Not so. Most universities give professors space on their web sites for their personal use. This is one of those, as can be seen by exploring the linked pages. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Add me to the list of uninvolved editors who think David Kathman's website conforms to RS. Kathman has authored over 108 articles on Elizabethan biographies for, respectively, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, and for the Encyclopedia of Shakespeare, shortly to be published by Greenwood under the general editorship of Yale Phd. and Stanford academic, Patricia Parker, who is editing three Shakespeare plays, for Norton and Arden. Kathman, unlike Nina Green (I've corresponded with both long ago), is reputed by Elizabethan scholars like Sir Brian Vickers and Stanley Wells as a colleague whose views are worth citing. I'm sorry to say this Jayjg but your remark that 'Everything notable about Shakespeare, including who wrote the plays, has been covered by many, many, high quality, reliable, non-self-published sources,' is wrong on many counts, not least because research is on-going, discoveries or novel hypotheses are made or advanced every year, and, crucially, ignores the fact that the whole tradition, revived by Looney and Ogburn, both completely erratic unprofessional kibitzers on a sphere of scholarship they were wholly untrained in, tends to be systematically ignored or not taken seriously, except as an example of popular mythmaking, by ranking Shakespearean scholars. Kathman, the quality of whose work is recognized by those scholars, specialized precisely in doing the bleak drudgery of exposing the methodological incoherencies and fatuously circular reasoning of the cultish amateurs who thrive on lunatic fringe theories about Shakespeare, work that most major scholars think below contempt or notice. Indeed, with few exceptions, their work is unreadable. To annotate the errors they make often exceeds the space provided by the page margins. Kathman is one of those experts who are troubled by the unintended consequences of scholarly hauteur, the tendency to ignore fringe ideas that, if unopposed by authoritative scholarship, capture the public imagination and lead to the establishment of popular myths, usually grounded in theories of conspiracies, cover-ups and occult mysteries. His site is therefore an indispensable guide for those who wish a vademecum to thread their way through the bewildering labyrinths of mental confusion, slipshod methodology, and counter-intuitive cloud-gathering that characterize the de Verean-Ogburnian lobbyists. Nishidani (talk) 17:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Nishidani, you're hardly "uninvolved" when it comes to anything I do or say, which you almost invariably oppose. In fact, I strongly object to your appearance here, per WP:STALK. I thought I was finally rid of your harassment when I stopped editing I-P related articles, and subsequently also stopped editing the unrelated Islam and Antisemitism article, after you followed me there to oppose me. I did not expect you to follow me here, to oppose me on RS/N threads related to Shakespeare authorship! What next? Will you start opposing my AfD closures? My edits to synagogue articles? Will G-Dett show up to oppose me as well? Jayjg 20:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

So intense is my stalking of you, that I only noticed this remark a minute ago, while checking a detail. For the record, to assuage your paranoia, Tom Reedy posted a note of exasperation on a page I had bookmarked, which lead to either this, or the Shakespeare Authorship Question. I can't remember where exactly, since I don't look at wikipedia much these days, but Tom Reedy, if he's watching, could probably produce the link. I saw two people who know a subject thoroughly, being wikilawyered by a fringe theorist hyperactivist, and responded to Tom's call by stepping into that page. I don't even know, though you will not believe me, how to bookmark an editor's contribution page, and often wonder how it is done. The things you name (Islam and Antisemitism) as evidence of 'harassment' came to my attention by chance, not by checking you. You're far too hyperactive, and have an editorial omnivoracity of Falstaffian capacities that would exhaust me in minutes were I even vaguely interested in tracking you. Since we were both given the I/P boot, we have encountered each other, I think, twice, both on topics which have interested me for decades. I named you here, because your judgement was, in my view, haywire, like that of the editor your call supported contextually. Tutto qua, so rest easy. I'm sure they'll have you back with full honours if you keep working at it, and my casual 'harassment', two disagreements over a year, will not compromise your reputation or aspirations. Nishidani (talk) 15:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well after that diatribe filled with ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagrees with Kathman, I would hardly call you uninvolved. Your personal bias simply overwhelms everything you have to say. Smatprt (talk) 22:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll probably go to my grave without once seeing an anti-Stratfordian use the term ad hominem correctly. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom, as other editors have noted, and as you admit, you are not really up on how wikipedia uses certain words and phrases. This is from wp:NPA, a policy you continue to demonstrate complete ignorance of: Sample Wiki definition of what constitutes a personal attack: "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream." Smatprt (talk) 07:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I doubt other editors have noted any such thing, however you are the one who is confused. WP:NPA applies to attacks on other contributors to Misplaced Pages, and even then does not include attacking their arguments, which is legitimate. It does not apply to "attacks" on the academic value and scholarship of authors. WP:BLP might apply to those who are living, but that does not include Looney or Ogburn. Paul B (talk) 14:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

One can cite the wiki rulebook ad infinitum, and get away with (the) murder of commonsense. One can ignore the precise meaning of words, and make argument wearisome. You called my remark a diatribe, which it is only in the classical Greek sense of 'wasting (one's) time'. There is no ad hominem attack, since I did not attack any individual in here, and, as Tom understood, to characterise a negative judgement of a fringe tradition of pseudo-scholarship in strong terms is not to violate WP:NPA, for the simple reason that I wrote of the general nature of a cultish vein of mystery-mongering. Ad hominem is a singular in Latin. One might reach for WP:BLP to indict 'completely erratic unprofessional kibitzers' with regard to Looney and Ogburn, but they are dead, and the charge falls, in the sense of abusing wiki rules, since that is a singular in Latin, and I made no personal attack on anyividuals writing from the de Verean-Ogburnian fringe. Elizabethan scholarship is, above all, about using and understanding words correctly. Once you master this, the taste for bizarre historical hypotheses, based on the snobbish theory that people of poor or non-university backgrounds cannot write artistic masterpieces (Homer, Aeschylus, Euripides, Sophocles, Dickens, Ferdowsi, Li Po, Cervantes, Murasaki Shikibu, Rumi etc.etc.etc.) generally vanishes.

I spoke of the effects of mythmaking on the 'public imagination', and I had in mind the effect on the credulous public, unforearmed with any knowledge of the rigours of historical scholarship and Elizabethan textual analysis, of this trash. If you wish to see yourself as the intended victim of this generic description, you are at liberty to do so, but do not call the process of identification with my broadbrush description, a personal attack. Unfortunately for wiki, there is no penalty for consistently misreading what plain words in English mean, and then taking supererogatory offence at an imagined slight.

There is a technical problem here for wiki. In summary terms, the Shakespeare authorship question is a fringe, extreme minority hypothesis. It is generally disregarded by Shakespeareans. Even those who do look at it in glancing, like Alan Nelson in his biography of de Vere, do so en passant. Most treat it en pissant. Therefore, to get quality RS on it, is like asking for quality RS on flatearthers, Velikovsky's planetary theories or chronological reconstructions, or Gurdjieff's invisible moon theory. So Tom Reedy's complaint is legitimate. Kathman is one formally trained, and recognized Shakespearean academic, who has devoted years to untangling the mess caused by the endemic misprisions of those amateur textual sleuths who create these fictions. To document the hypootheses using the otherwise academically unreliable texts by Ogburn, Looney, Price and co., and then challenge one of the authorities on this freakish cult on the pure technical grounds that he published his findings on the web, and not in a book issued by a university press, is to attempt to out perhaps the major source for the academic demystification of this fringe tradition. Ogburn, Looney and co., are only sources for their own beliefs, not for any question regarding Shakespearean scholarship. Kathman, by contrast, is a source for Shakespearean scholarship, since the doyens of the field cite him, and his publishing record on the era is substantial. To source a wiki text freely from the disiecta membra of a ragged fringe school of pseudo-scholarship, while using the rules to deny full critical reference to perhaps the major academic who took the time to do what no serious scholars think worth the trouble, exposing the methodological incoherencies of the movement, looks like a shabby attempt to game the system, to the advantage of what is a fringe, slightly lunatic, omnium gatherum of conspiracy theories. Nishidani (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you asked what I felt the consensus at this point is. Let me answer as best I can.

• While its true that no true "consensus" has been achieved it certainly appears that the majority feeling is that the Kathman site is useable, but with some caveats attached:

• Most editors (here and in general) would always prefer, whenever possible, to see sources that are of higher quality (what ever that means) and have greater accountability than a self-published website.

• Several editors (Dlabot, Crum375) also noted that clear attribution (in-text) should be used. For me, a key to this consensus it the use of in-text attribution as it will assure readers that certain statements are the opinion of Kathman and not a statement of undisputed fact, or that one researcher is speaking for the "academic consensus" - a claim that would be classified as extraordinary, and would require RS of the highest quality (not just the fact that certain Stratfordians recommend him).

• One (Crum375) also mentioned that in any case, "how" to use the site should be discussed by the article editors.

Now that we have a pretty good picture on how these editors feel, I think we can continue working on the article and decide how and when to use the website back on the article talk page. I acknowledge the feeling of the majority here and will provide greater leeway for the Kathman site as we move forward. Though I would have preferred a different outcome, I want to thank the editors here for providing input. I will copy this post to the article talk page so we can resume work there and on the article itself. Smatprt (talk) 22:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Smatprt, I've made a request above. Jayjg 20:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Answered above. Thanks. Smatprt (talk) 17:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Venezuelanalysis Reboot

The issue of the reliability of the website Venezuelanalysis, which has long passed too long, didn't read status above, merits a reboot in an attempt to actually resolve the issue. The site now has its own entry - Venezuelanalysis.com. It is argued that Venezuelanalysis is widely considered reliable, and that it "offers useful detail and analysis on pivotal issues that is unavailable from other media sources," and as such is a necessary complement to other media sources. Any present overuse of VA should be fixed by adding more sources, not removing VA sources.

• Widely referred to in Google Books (200+ hits) and Google Scholar (300+ hits)
• Specific academic views: Analyzing Venezuelan media, Darrell Moen calls it "A major source of non-corporate controlled information regarding the process of social transformation that is occurring in Venezuela ... This website offers critical analyses by dissident scholars and grassroots-based accounts by social activists involved in the various social movements in Venezuela as well as links to a number of alternative media sites and access to documentary videos that depict recent events in Venezuela.". Writing in New Political Science, Walt Vanderbush calls it "a valuable resource for Venezuelan news and analysis."
• Endorsed by 4 academics on Venezuelanalysis' "donate" page: . Links to their homepages: Anderson, Grandin, Hellinger. (Ellner's page I can't find; Venezuelan university websites are generally not great.) Ellner and Hellinger are Venezuela specialists (political science); Grandin and Anderson have broader Latin America interests. A book Hellinger and Ellner co-edited (Venezuelan Politics in the Chávez Era: Class, Polarization and Conflict, 2003) was described by Foreign Affairs as "An extremely valuable and balanced overview of Venezuela"..
• Ellner's endorsement ("In short, Venezuelanalysis offers useful detail and analysis on pivotal issues that is unavailable from other media sources.") is particularly significant, being a (if not the) leading English-language academic on Venezuelan left politics. Ellner's 1988 book was described by Foreign Affairs as "A well-researched analysis of Venezuela's small but innovative third party...". In the foreword to that book, Michael Conniff described Ellner as "a leading analyst of Venezuela's left politics" That was in 1988; "Steve Ellner"+Venezuela gets 150+ hits on Google News , many from the New York Times and Christian Science Monitor asking Ellner for his opinion on events of the day. He is described in neutral terms such as "a political analyst at Venezuela's Oriente University" Even Fox News described him neutrally as "a political science professor at Venezuela's University of the East."
• Used by Human Rights Watch as a source in its 2008 report , and multiple times by UNHCR Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, eg here.
• Lonely Planet: Venezuela deems it "the best English language news site" to "keep track of the country's political and economic affairs."

In the face of this evidence that Venezuelanalysis is widely considered a reliable source, some Misplaced Pages editors wish to substitute their personal opinion that it is unreliable, because links they allege between the website (the alleged links are weak and the sourcing generally unreliable) and the Venezuelan government allegedly render it unreliable. They also argue that in their opinion the website editors' political views, which differ dramatically from their own, render it unreliable. In addition they argue that those wishing to use VA as a source must prove the site's 8 editors have "journalistic credentials" (whatever that means). (It was generally ignored that I had noted - to suggest that "journalistic credentials" are not everything - that Venezuelan media, formerly one of the most respected presses in Latin America, had after the election of Hugo Chavez become part of the opposition: "media owners and their editors used the news - print and broadcast - to spearhead an opposition movement against Chavez... Editors began routinely winking at copy containing unfounded speculation, rumor, and unchecked facts." Dinges, John. Columbia Journalism Review (July 2005). "Soul Search", Vol. 44 Issue 2, July-August 2005, pp52-8. US media reporting on Venezuela has also been critiqued )

In discussing this issue in the RSN thread above, the editors opposing use of VA have introduced irrelevant sources; complained about Misplaced Pages's Venezuela articles not matching their POV; and made many accusations of bad faith. Since the old thread remains open for any more accusations of bad faith that may be required, as well as any more detours into complaints not relevant to the issue, hopefully this thread can focus on resolving the question: can VA be considered a reliable source? Rd232 14:17, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for the additional data. I stick with what I said earlier: the site easily meets the minimum threshold of RS, it had best be used for attributed opinion, and where it is used for contentious facts, these facts should also be attributed. (That last point, of course, also applies to other sources.) --JN466 21:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

• I will also stick with what I said earlier. Venezuelanalysis meets the minimum threshold of RS, but it is a highly partisan source and opinion site. Since pro-Chavez opinion is a significant viewpoint in Venezuelan politics, we should include the pro-Chavez opinion with attribution. This source must attributed if used, and should not be used for contentious information in BLPs. --Defender of torch (talk) 13:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. I dislike things that begin to seem like WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT issues after a while. It's a reliable source, my comments from the last thread on this (a week ago) have not changed. I have better things to do than debate this ad-nauseum. Simonm223 (talk) 15:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This looks like "ask the other parent" to an issue that was already well debated; I suggest that anyone weighing in here not take Rd232's summary at face value, rather re-read the entire previous thread. Venezuelanalysis is funded by Chavez, media in Venezuela is state-controlled, the writers for Venezuelanalysis are highly partisan and affiliated with the Chavez regime, have no journalist credentials, and VenAnalysis is largely cited by the extreme radical left. It has been used on Wiki to source an egregious BLP violation, and its reporting is rarely comprehensive or neutral; the people responsible for it are funded by Chavez and associated with him. VA has a very limited place on Wiki, if any, and people willing to use it as a source often do so to the exclusion of more reliable sources. It rarely covers info that is not available in non-biased mainstream reliable sources, and because it is affiliated with Chavez, should never be used to the exclusion of more reliable sources. I also notice Rd232's several distortions and one-sided presentation of the issues in his new thread here, and am concerned about his tendentious editing in Chavez/Venezuela articles. He states that media owners spearheaded opposition to Chavez, but fails to mention the serious press freedom issues in Venezuela and that the media is state-controlled, by Chavez, and you can be jailed or shut down if you criticize Chavez; if Wiki allows VenAnalysis a larger role here as a source, we become one more arm of Chavez's very successful Venezuela Information Office. We already see Rd232 writing entire articles sourced to the highly partisan VA website, and excluding mainstream views (that alone speaks to the bias of VA as a source). We also now have an unbalanced article venezuelanalysis.com that uses a tour guide to prop up this partisan website. And I strongly object to this "ask the other parent" reboot, since most people are probably tired of this discussion and considered it settled. WP:V is a pillar of Wiki; overreliance on VA turns Wiki into another arm of the Chavez PR and propaganda machine. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Sandy, I understand your concern. But at this point, we are helpless because we are yet to find reliable sources which document the Chavista connection of this site, even though we know the persons associated with this site are lackeys of Chavez. This is why I said this site should be used with attribution as an opinion site, and should not be used for sensitive information in BLPs. I agree the article Venezuelanalysis.com is horribly biased and will try to add some information to make it NPOV. --Defender of torch (talk) 16:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This is yet another example of Sandy attempting to derail or shut down dispute resolution (she virtually accuses me of forum shopping on the same forum). She repeats the unsourced and/or irrelevant claims made ad nauseam in the TL:DR thread, which had driven away external input and made an actual resolution of the issue this dispute resolution board is actually for impossible. This summary of the issue is an opportunity to actually settle the question asked. Rd232 17:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Also it appears that the above comment, insofar as it has any actual relevance to the question, boils down to the argument that Misplaced Pages should counter the alleged press freedom issues in Venezuela by excluding a source widely considered reliable - as some sort of political counter-balance. This has the merit at least of being the closest Sandy has come to expressing her motivation on this issue. Rd232 17:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I have seen no evidence that Venezuelanalysis has a reputation of poor fact checking so it can be used to source uncontroversial facts; uncontroversial understood as not being in conflict with the facts reported by other reliable sources, any conflict with WP editors' opinions is irrelevant. JRSP (talk) 16:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I have edited the article venezuelanalysis.com to make it clear that the site is left wing and pro-Chavez. However I am not sure if my edit will stay. --Defender of torch (talk) 16:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like its reliable and biased. Use attribution, and don't use it for super controversial stuff related to Chavez. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 17:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. We need to put enough restrictions on the use of this partisan website, with ties to Chavez, to stop Rd232 from writing entire articles sourced to it to the exclusion of mainstream non-partisan sources, and it should never be used in BLPs or to source contentious claims. It should only be used to support non-contentious information that is not available in other sources (and that means, rarely, since most of anything they report on is available in other sources or highly contentious and dubious). Rd232's editing in Venezuela articles has evidenced extreme tendentiousness, and he has written entire articles sourced largely to VenAnalysis, excluding mainstream sources and a preponderance of reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. I was asked to comment here. I don't think venezuelanalysis.com can be regarded as a reliable source within the sourcing policy, WP:V. It's what the policy calls a "questionable source": "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves." See WP:V#Questionable sources.

  It is also a self-published source within the meaning of the policy, in the sense that it seems to have no employees, no bosses, no office, and no formal editorial oversight. It describes itself as "an independent website produced by individuals ... its contributors are all working on the site from their homes in various places in Venezuela, the U.S., and elsewhere in the world."

  The reliability of individual articles on the site therefore boils down to whether the person who wrote the article is a reliable source within the meaning of the policy. The policy says: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." See WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper). So each article on the website that's being proposed as a source will have to be examined individually to decide whether the author has previously been published in that field by an independent publication. Then that article could be used with a link to the site as a source. But I would caution against using self-published material for anything contentious, and it can never be used as a source of information about a living person, per V and BLP. SlimVirgin 19:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

In view of the range of sources noted at the top of this thread citing it or endorsing it, I do not think it should be considered "self-published"; and I would say that the fact that other sources rely on it matters more than a debatable interpretation of "self-published". It has editorial oversight at least insofar as the 8 individuals listed here are just some of its many contributors. Rd232 19:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

You've added "widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions." from policy, in support of it being a "questionable source". Citing policy is not enough, it needs to be shown that it applies. The fact that it is relied upon by others (as noted at the top of the thread) suggests that it is not "widely acknowledged as extremist"; and claims that any other part of the policy applies need to be evidenced. Rd232 19:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter who relies on it, Rd. What matters is our sourcing policy. The eight people who have may editorial responsibility are unpaid individuals working from home. They're not providing professional editorial and legal oversight, or any kind of fact-checking process. They make this almost a point of pride: we are not professionals, we are just volunteers working from home. Are any of them known experts, do you know? SlimVirgin 19:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Wilpert is a professor of political science. It is endorsed by Steve Ellner, whose credentials are noted above, as well as VA being widely cited in academic sources. And what matters is not just the nature of sourcing policy, but arguments on how it applies here. Rd232 19:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

If Gregory Wilpert has previously been published in this field by an independent publication, then self-published articles by him on this website would be allowable within reason, but not for use about living persons. It doesn't matter who endorsed it or who else cites it. We care only about our policies. The point of the sourcing policy is this: if push comes to shove, and we publish some terrible, false and libellous thing, and a court comes to us and says, "Misplaced Pages, show us your due diligence. Why did you publish this dreadful lie?", we have to be able to point to The New York Times or to Cambridge University Press or to Routledge. We don't want to be pointing to a website that's suddenly disappeared, published from home by eight volunteers, now untraceable. That's not due diligence. SlimVirgin 19:36, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Wot? Legal liability has nothing to do with this (only comes into play for failure to remove specific information). And given the falsehoods published by the NYT (as acknowledged by themselves), as well as by Venezuelan media which despite the Columbia Journalism Review information we're still happy to use, the value of "editorial oversight" and "journalistic credentials" is a lot less than it appears (as evidenced by the external citation of VA). Rd232 19:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"a website that's suddenly disappeared" applies to a vast proportion of WP sources, actually or potentially. It's mitigated by archive.org and use of WebCite. Rd232 19:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Legal liability is only part of the story. I am talking about due diligence—morally, legally, intellectually, editorially. And when I talked about the website disappearing, I didn't mean where we couldn't find the article. I meant in a "ships that pass in the night" sense, not a source that has a history, a reputation, that we could rely upon. The bottom line is that you're trying to reinvent the wheel to some extent, because the policy is pretty clear about sources like this. I'm sorry. SlimVirgin 20:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I think Rd232 will also find that if he begins to use more enduring, high-quality reliable sources, he won't have to keep chunking up citation templates with that obnoxious WebCite info, or resorting to archive.org. We don't have to archive The New York Times (Disembrangler=Rd232); I tend to use high-quality enduring sources rather than websites operated out of people's homes that will disappear in a few years, under regime change. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"We don't have to archive NYT" - I told you in relation to the linked edit that NYT unlimited free access is disappearing in a year, as a result of which some efforts are underway to WebCite key uses of NYT. Do you have a problem with this? And by the by, talking about citation templates as something I "chunk up" suggests you're really not paying attention to my edits: I hate citation templates with a fiery passion and avoid them wherever possible. Rd232 02:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

On-line links are not required for a printed source like The New York Times. Jayjg 23:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have been asked to comment about this. You got to love the moral ambiguity and circularity of argumentation of Rd232. Venezuelanalysis is reliable, among other things, because HRW mentioned it in a report the very spinmeister of the site, a.k.a. Gregory Wilpert, protested for allegedly not having followed academic standards. But Rd232, as far as it remains known, lacking any credentials on Venezuelan studies or indeed international law, called the report he now uses as proof as "biased and manipulative". Worth of note also, the fact that said HRW report also quoted me, to which Wilpert et al reacted by saying, without providing a shred of academic evidence, that I was a mentally unstable opposition blogger. My exchange with Chomsky demonstratetd that none of them had any evidence to support such spurious arguments. Rd232 calls tenuous the Gaceta Oficial de Venezuela, for those ignorant on the topic the official gazette where all legislation, appointments, etc, need be published BEFORE reaching legal and official status. This debate is a joke. Rd232, his alter ego and JRSP, have a notorious track record of utterly biased and tendentious editing in pages relates to Chavez and Venezuela. They give far too much weight to the radical left, to obscure academics that lack peer reviewed publications related to Venezuela, while ignoring reputed left sources, such as NYT, BBC, etc., or indeed, HRW, when these report on the horrendous crisis Venezuela is undergoing. I declare myself out of this, there is no good faith here. Venezuela/Chavez related entries are nothing but a crude exercise in propaganda, and I will go as far as stating my belief that there is a connection between the editors in question and chavista propaganda efforts. Otherwise, how else can their attitude be explained?--Alekboyd (talk) 20:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
  • • Also, obviously and unsurprisingly misleading. For example the criticism of HRW's report involved 118 academics. And I did not specifically call the Gaceta tenuous, I called the whole argument which relies on Gaceta as source for part of it tenuous. And if Alek thinks it is not significant that HRW cited VenezuelanRd232 20:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
      • I did actually say in the opening post of this thread that "the old thread remains open for any more accusations of bad faith that may be required". Obviously, anyone who disagrees with you must be a paid propagandist! Only possible explanation! For the record, I joined WP in October 2004, becoming an admin in October 2005. I made a few edits to Hugo Chavez (the centre of the Venezuela disputes, so I've checked the history for that article) for the first time in summer 2005; 3 in 2006 (including a vandalism rollback), zero in 2007 and 2008 (OK, I was mostly absent from mid-2006 to early 2009 - but it's a hell of a way to collect a paycheck, doncha think??). In any case, as Soxred's tool and some careful thumbing through my history shows (especially pre-2009, when I seemed to get a lot more involved with Venezuela), Venezuela is just one of many topics I've edited, and only a relatively small proportion of my edits (especially on the edit side rather than the talking - reams of talking here). Rd232 20:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• It's a deep plot :) But the circular reasoning employed by Rd232 is utterly astounding, but not apparent to other editors who might not be as familiar with Venezuela and its issues with lack of press freedom and control of the judiciary. He's virtually begging us to let him use VenAnalysis (why the urgency, I wonder?), while decrying other mainstream reliable sources as "corporate" or "US" or "UK" biased, and making claims about the Venezuelan press-- which has been severely muzzled by Chavez. From what I've seen of his editing-- creating quite a few POV articles-- Rd232 seems to think VA is the only reliable source on Venezuela. Considering its connections to Chavez, that is very interesting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 7 Februay 2010 (UTC)

• One last comment: It is not true that UNHCR has used Venezuelanalysis as a source in multiple ocassions, as RD232 misleading and deceitfully argues. Rather it has posted reports from the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, which has cited Venezuelanalysis in some of its writings. This is a quintessential example of the quality of editing, objectivity and fact checking that Rd232 brings to Misplaced Pages. In said report the Venezuela Information Office, and the International Journal of Socialist Renewal (in reference to comments from the Australian-Venezuela Solidarity Network) can also be seen. Does that mean that VIO and clueless Australian activists from the 'solidarity network' meet WP:RS standards? I think not. Same goes for Rd232 statement about Ellner being the leading English-language leftist academic of Venezuela, because some obscure and totally unrelated to Venezuela academic had said so once.--Alekboyd (talk) 20:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• , My bad. It so much weakens the case for it as a source that the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, "Canada's largest independent administrative tribunal", used it as a source. As for your comments about Ellner - you clearly read my post enough to dismiss Michael Conniff's view of him, so why do you ignore 150+ cites in Google News, many from sources like NYT quoting him? Rd232 20:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
• Cheap shot to mention the VIO citation when it is relied on purely for the number of people elected in the 2008 elections. Even you can't find something objectionable about that. Rd232 21:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• 99.9999% of the comments on this topic here have absolutely no relationship the question of whether this source meets our reliable source guideline. Please stop cluttering up this page with this off-topic ideological dispute. Dlabtot (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
  • This is exactly why I started a new section (and complained at ANI when the same thing happened as before). Rd232 21:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Um, but that didn't prevent you from starting this very thread with your ideological distortion, did it ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Case in point. Don't address the content issue with relevant sources or arguments, just attack other contributors with vague accusations. It's a surefire way to make sure nobody else will want to comment on the content issue. Rd232 02:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Where is the quid pro quo here? If we agree that a Chavez-biased source can be used, why can't the Washington Post or NY Times, normally recognized as left-wing biased publications, be used? Only because they publish what is accurate about Venezuela?

BTW, WP:AGF also says, "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of contrary evidence." We have seen a lot of "contrary evidence IMO." Student7 (talk) 01:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Where does the claim come from that these sources cannot be used? The issue is treating these (indeed, any) sources as Gospel. Different sources should be used - the issue here is the attempt to suppress VA - the repeated and unfounded claims that criticisms of other sources imply a blanket unwillingness to ever use them are ludicrous. Rd232 02:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Post/NYT "normally recognized as left-wing biased publications"? Even by US standards, that just isn't true. Of course rightwingers would, and do claim this (and they point mostly to op-eds, which is irrelevant - it's the news reporting that's the issue). Rd232 02:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

SlimVirgin's analysis is correct, and I appreciate her more thorough review. The website is essentially a WP:SPS, and has to be treated as such. Its political views, and whether or not various professors write a laudatory paragraph for the website, are both irrelevant. Jayjg 23:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to disagree with SlimVirgin's analysis. I see little basis for classifying it as a questionable source. The website could be considered a WP:SPS, though this is not perfectly clear, but that does not preclude it from being considered a reliable source, even if it is not published by well-known experts. Frequently enough sites even more clearly self published, by obscurer individuals, have been judged to be RS's here at WP:RS/N based mainly on their citation by and reputation described in definitely reliable sources. This is more important and has more to do with interpretation of the WP:V policy and the WP:RS guideline than with this particular source. Some of the issues were just inconclusively debated here; I didn't have the time to contribute before that was archived, I think the subject should be reopened at WT:V.John Z (talk) 08:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Which parts of WP:V and WP:RS are you using to make that assessment? Jayjg 01:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree it is WP:SPS – although a number of the people involved are previously published experts, and they are exercising informal editorial control over contributions from others. --JN466 22:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Replying to Jayjg: Misplaced Pages:Identifying_reliable_sources#Usage_by_other_sources and WP:SPS. This usage by other sources section was written precisely to cover the situation of often self-published sources widely quoted, cited, reviewed or used by clearly reliable sources, but which may be difficult to analyze in other ways. It was (re)inserted in the guideline after the case of boxofficeindia.com at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_13#Boxofficeindia.com which was such a source on the Indian film industry. Since then, other such websites have had a clear consensus on their reliability here based (mainly) on such evidence, most frequently in the case of military history sites often run by amateurs - if such sites are so good that dozens of academic or reputably published books cite them, it can be arbitrary and artificial for Misplaced Pages to exclude them.John Z (talk) 06:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem with WP:RS is that it is a guideline, and people have a bad habit of editing it so that it no longer conforms with WP:V (a policy), specifically for the purpose of allowing them to use non-reliable sources. And because it is watched less closely, these changes often stick for a while. That's why the RS guideline has a bold statement in the first paragraph: In the event of a contradiction between this page and the policy, the policy takes priority, and this page should be updated to reflect it. Jayjg 16:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Reboot the reboot: Exhibit I

Exhibit I, since people have been asking for examples, which I just happened across while looking into the curiously orphaned article, Corruption in Venezuela, whose original content seems to have gone desaparecido and orphaned. This VenAnalysis report is used to source a completely biased accounting there of the cases of Manuel Rosales and Raul Baduel (and others). Since I have cleaned up Rosales, and done a wee bit of work on Baduel, I invite those participating in this discussion to compare this VA article with the reliable sources listed at Rosales and Baduel, see if they think VenAnalysis has presented both sides of the story. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I went and checked the original article and copied two paragraphs not moved when Corruption in Venezuela was spun off. One mentions corruption in a general context of crime; the other based solely on ...er... Venezuelanalysis. Well anyway there it is. I can still userfy if you want to check anything else. And do you not agree that it's more useful to the reader to have the content in Corruption in Venezuela than hidden away in a subsection of Criticism of Hugo Chavez? Rd232 15:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

How typical of Sandy to insinuate instead of clearly stating the supposed problem. The only substantive difference I can see between the current version and the old version, in terms of the paragraph where Venezuelanalysis is used as a source is that Sandy has added "He is in prison, for an investigation ordered by Chavez, awaiting trial" sourced to a newspaper source which relies heavily on opposition journalist Roberto Giusti's opinion (find-in-page here about his take on journalistic ethics). Despite that, the source doesn't obviously support the specific claim that "Chavez ordered the investigation", which is ironic in view of Sandy's crusade to strengthen policy requirements to provide foreign language quotes in articles to back up their use. Elsewhere Sandy for some reason is deleting content sourced to Venezuelanalysis with nothing more than a claim of "bias". Rd232 08:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

There are two camps in Venezuela. Similar to what we see in the States. As Misplaced Pages is more liberal it is not surprising that it has a liberal bent as apposed to a conservative one. I think Venezuela analysis is a sufficiently reliable source to use of Misplaced Pages. The fact that it is released under a creative commons license is a plus. If there are other sources that disagree add them to provide balance. On Misplaced Pages we are not attempting to match this paper but create something better. Hopefully no page will be based on a single source / single opinion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

There are two, and more, camps everywhere. At stake in this discussion, is not whether to turn Misplaced Pages into National Review Online, but rather to stop using a source that beyond reference by some radicals, has been given far too much weight by Rd232, his alter ego Disembrangler and JRSP over the years. Take for instance the entry Human Rights Venezuela, and how the opinion of Gregory Wilpert, editor in chief of Venezuelanalysis, sociologist, married to Hugo Chavez's Consul in NY, funded by Venezuelan taxpayer money, is provided as balance to a 230 page odd report produced by one of the world's most respected, and liberal BTW, human rights NGOs: Human Rights Watch. Now to some around here that seems perfectly kosher, to those of us who know who Wilpert is, it is crystal clear that his opinion, as much as he's entitled to publish it in his propaganda rag, carries no weight whatsoever in the debate about whether or not human rights are systematically violated in Venezuela. Wilpert has no credentials to participate in such debate, and has been described by HRW, rightly so, as "unhelpful critics who opt instead to disseminate baseless allegations" link. The Inter American Court of Human Rights has ruled against the Chavez regime in a number of occasions, Amnesty International keeps warning the regime about the dangers of disrespecting supra constitutional and inalienable rights, yet Misplaced Pages visitors of the entry are meant to take the opinion of an utterly discredited propagandist on an equal footing as that of HRW. So I'll go with SlimVirgin, Jayjg, SandyGeorgia, Defender of Torch, Student7 opinions and stress that Venezuelanalysis should only be used for stuff that can't be found anywhere else, and has to be properly identified as a propaganda rag of Hugo Chavez's ever growing media empire.--Alekboyd (talk) 20:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Just so one does not get to carried away one can say the exact same thing about Fox News / Rupert Murdock. His media empire is even a little bit larger :-) I remember seeing this clip were Fox had on someone who called for Chavez to be murdered. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Comparing a military putschist cum president of a nation to a businessman, however much hated, does your position no good whatsoever. This debate is not about whether Murdoch has a bigger media empire, but about using as trustworthy a source riddled with conflicts of interest, and with far too many connections to a military regime.--Alekboyd (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Stepping over the red herring of Murdoch, I'd have to say I agree with Alekboyd. VA is a reliable, but biased, source. It can be used as a source for simple questions of positive fact if no other source is available, but should be avoided entirely if other sources (such as HRW) address a question. It is also not reliable for negative facts (did not, never, etc.) Note that even in cases where laying out a he-said-she-said debate is appropriate, the pro-Chavez position should be sourced to something more official. Homunq (talk) 17:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Use as required reading in university courses

I've noticed that the site is included in required reading lists and bibliographies for courses at a number of universities. The following list (by no means exhaustive) provides some examples:

• Harvard University: Required reading.
• University of California, Santa Barbara. Listed in course bibliography. Quote: "http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/. This website is dedicated to critical news coverage and analyses of events in Venezuela and in particular regarding the Bolivarian revolution."
• University of Pittsburgh: Reading list (twice)
• University of Colorado, Boulder: Reading list
• De Paul University: Reading list
• Cornell University: Reading list
• Evergreen State College: listed 18 times in course reading list

I would think that tends to affirm RS status. At any rate, it clearly has some considerable academic standing. --JN466 22:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

It depends what we want to use it for. Are we agreed that it's a self-published source? If yes, it can't be used as a source about living people. As for using it elsewhere, the dichotomy is this: if we want to use it to support material that's published somewhere else too, why not use that other source? But if we use it for something that doesn't appear elsewhere, then we have to ask ourselves why that website is the sole source. So either way, I can't think of a situation where I'd feel happy using it, unless the issue was so uncontentious that it barely needed a source at all. SlimVirgin 10:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I am doubtful. Your argument could be made to exclude any source: "If it's only in this book, then why should we use it?" If it is a book that is widely cited by scholars (as venezuelanalysis is), and it has enough standing to be used as a means of instruction in universities, then excluding it from Misplaced Pages seems to me to result in a different standard for inclusion than the one the most reputable actors in the real world are applying. Cf. Misplaced Pages:Rs#Usage_by_other_sources. --JN466 11:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

My argument is indeed often used to exclude self-published sources. If something appears only in an SPS, and it's a contentious point, what does that tell us? We have no way of knowing how to proceed. Do you agree that it's an SPS, or are you also challenging that? SlimVirgin 12:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Just as a general point, there is no way that the use of something as required reading automatically makes it a reliable source. For instance, there are courses on cult archaeology that have some dreadful stuff as required reading -- there must be lots of courses in other fields that ask students to read what we would call unreliable sources to demonstrate the way such sources mislead/misrepresent etc. Dougweller (talk) 12:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

As a general point, you are of course quite right. You can find university courses asking students to read all kinds of unreliable sources for illustrative purposes. But I looked at the course outlines in that light. I've read the papers included in the Harvard reading list; their messages broadly match each other (and the official analysis of the referendum by the Carter Center). So it's not like one paper is set off against the other. In the Evergreen State College case, a full third of the entire reading list is articles on venezuelanalysis.com. The University of California course outline simply includes the site in its supplemental bibliography; no qualifier. --JN466 13:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:Rs#Usage_by_other_sources and WP:SPS we accept even self-published sources as reliable sources if they are routinely cited for fact by reliable sources, or if they are published by previously published experts. Both of these apply here.

Jay, sorry to interrupt your post, but the first part of your sentence is a misreading of both those sections. Bear in mind too that V is the policy, so even if RS did say that about self-published sources, it should be removed, but it doesn't. We accept self-published sources if they are acknowledged experts on the topic of the article, who have been previously published in that field by independent reliable sources. None of that applies to the people who run that website, as I recall. And we never accept them, expert or not, as sources about living people. SlimVirgin 14:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

As for whether the site is a SPS in the first place, I was swayed earlier by your argument about it being SPS. Looking into it more closely, I confess I now tend to lean the other way. It is clearly not a private website or blog. The site itself says "Venezuelanalysis.com is a project of Venezuela Analysis, Inc., which is registered as a non-profit organization in New York State and of the Fundación para la Justicia Económica Global, which is a foundation that is registered in Caracas, Venezuela." It is the joint website of these research foundations, and employs an editorial team of internationally published scholars. That, combined with its scholarly reception, makes me think it's okay. --JN466 14:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

When I last looked at it, it said it was run by a group of people from their homes. They were named, and they weren't scholars that I recall. And it has no employees. SlimVirgin 14:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The editorial team work for these foundations. I'll research all the editors and put up what I find here.

• Gregory Wilpert is "a former US Fulbright scholar in Venezuela, and is currently doing independent research on the sociology of development". Books by Gregory Wilpert, google scholar. As "Greg Wilpert: , , .
• Eva Golinger is a widely published Venezuelan-American writer and attorney and the author of several books on Chavez: google news, google scholar, google books, books by her. --JN466 14:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• According to this book which he co-wrote, Michael Fox is not a scholar, but "a journalist, a reporter, and a documentary filmmaker based in South America." Here it says he is a "former staff-writer for Venezuelanalysis.com". --JN466 15:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Federico Fuentes is described as an "author, journalist and political activist". The article also says he "is actively involved in the Australia-Venezuela Solidarity Network, of which he was a national co-convenor (2008-9), and has organized several solidarity delegations to Venezuela. He is also a member of the Socialist Alliance (Australia)." Elsewhere it is said he is "a frequent writer for the Australian socialist newspaper, Green Left Weekly, and maintains the blog Bolivia Rising". Google News: , Google Scholar: --JN466 16:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Jan Kühn appears to be a German student of history and sociology, studying in Berlin and Caracas, as well as working as a translator and in "independent media". Not anyone with any academic track record. --JN466 15:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Same for Tamara Pearson: "Tamara Pearson is an Australian activist and writer as well as a member of the Australian-Venezuela Solidarity Network. She currently lives in Venezuela." --JN466 15:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• No evidence that James Suggett is significantly published outside VA.com: . --JN466 15:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Kiraz Janicke is described as "a member of the Green Left Weekly Caracas bureau", "a Resistance member who has been based in Venezuela for the last 12 months", "a participant in the first Australia-Venezuela Solidarity Brigade" etc. --JN466 15:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

So the editorial team looks like 2 or 3 people with a notable track record (albeit decidedly left-leaning/alternative, judging by their publishers), and some minor players. Golinger's two main books are held by 419 and 221 libraries respectively; which is sort of respectable, but there are definitely more widely held bios on Chavez. --JN466 15:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Even just looking at the Harvard page I get the impression that the site is being presented not as a reliable source from which students are expected to derive facts, but as one of a number of competing analyses that students are going to be comparing. Also, note that the very next reading on the list is a Misplaced Pages article. Clearly, being on a course syllabus like this does not imply that a source is reliable in the Misplaced Pages sense. —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Addressed above. Note that the paper's conclusions about the 2004 referendum match those of the Carter Center and the US government. --JN466 14:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why this one website has been getting so much attention. Can someone point to an example of an edit that relies on it that couldn't otherwise be made? SlimVirgin

It's been getting so much attention because it is apparently broadly pro-Chavez. The people on it are seen by conservative commentators as propagandists for Chavez. There have been several attempts here on WP to link people on the site to the Venezuelan state-funded Venezuela Information Office (for example, there was an edit war in our article on the site about inserting the – tenuous – info that VIO once wrote to Golinger asking her for help). Clearly, some or all of the people writing on Venezuelanalysis.com are socialists or at least liberals. At the same time, some of the editors arguing forcefully against any use of Venezuelanalysis.com have proposed the inclusion of material sourced to sources like discoverthenetworks.org. I am concerned about throwing out sources that have scholarly credibility because the authors may have socialist or liberal leanings. --JN466 14:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you there, but it's not clear there are scholars involved. The volunteers who run the site are Federico Fuentes, Michael Fox, Eva Golinger, Kiraz Janicke, Jan Kühn, Tamara Pearson, James Suggett, Gregory Wilpert. Are any of them academics? And can you give an example of the kind of edits it has been used to support? SlimVirgin 14:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I've posted what details I found on the editorial team above. Of course the site hosts articles by other writers as well. In the Evergreen State College course, which makes most use of the site (and describes it as "Good writing about contemporary Venezuelan developments, links to other good sources. Extensive archive. Co-founded by Greg Wilpert."), about half the articles are by members of the editorial team, and the other half by outside authors. The one that they include at Harvard is co-authored by Mark Weisbrot, who is a notable economist and columnist for The Guardian. I'll have a look how and where the site has been used. --JN466 16:22, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking over the list, it doesn't appear that they are generally what Misplaced Pages would consider to be experts in the subject; that is, they're lawyers, activists, filmmakers, etc. A university may have many reasons why it would want its students to read the views of these people, but university courses aren't encyclopedia articles, nor do their curricula have our sourcing requirements. Jayjg 16:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Having researched the team's credentials, I was less impressed than I thought I was going to be. ;) The site is currently cited on 200+ WP pages: . About 115 of those are articles in mainspace. --JN466 16:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Having gone through this exercise, I can't fault SlimVirgin's analysis above, posted at 19:11, 7 February 2010. In particular, it seems more than likely from the affiliations of the people involved that the site does have a promotional agenda. That does not mean everything on it is bad or invalid; as SlimVirgin said earlier, we should look at the credentials of each individual author whose writings are hosted there, and base our decision on that. Thanks for your input. --JN466 17:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I would say that self-published articles by the two published authors, Wilpert and Golinger, can be used, though according to V and BLP, they can't be used as sources on living people, and that includes Chavez, even though he's one of the issues it seems they specialize in. But for general political issues in that country, articles with their byline on that website could be used as sources. Fox, I'm not so sure of—his contributions to that book probably don't amount to an acknowledged expertise. SlimVirgin 17:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. :) Where their guest authors are reputable, like Weisbrot etc., those articles could be used as well. And Wilpert and Golinger have written books on Chavez; these would obviously fine to use (in moderation, given that they are somewhat left of mainstream) if someone wanted to use them as sources on him. --JN466 20:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Having expended more than enough energy on this issue, I'm staying out of it. However I will correct the error introduced above by relying on the Harvard reading list: the source given for the Mark Weisbrot contribution is "Black swans..." , which is a straight re-publication of the CEPR paper here: . Weisbrot hasn't written for VA, as far as I know; but seemingly is quite liberal in allowing republication by anyone that wants. Rd232 22:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Was busy and did not see this continued discussion. I disagree very strongly with some statements above on the principles of reliability, something much more important than their particular application here. WP:SPS does not clearly restrict usage of self-published sources only to those written by previously published experts. This is reading an "only when" in WP:SPS where there is only a "when". It would be the natural idiomatic reading if there were no other general means of establishing reliability, but there are - usage by and statements in clearly reliable sources. Here is a recent discussion at WT:V. The policy has varied on this point, sometimes making it clear that "previously published expert" is only one example, sometimes as discussed last month, explicitly including a "usage by other sources" section. Citation and reputation has often enough been considered decisive evidence for reliability here at WP:RSN.

Of course we must define reliability here, as best we can. But we should try to keep our definition of "reliable source" as close as possible to the ordinary meaning in the relevant intellectual community. I wrote the "usage by other sources" section in WP:RS, with the support of and following the lead of User:Relata refero, and with Jayen466's and others' constructive criticism. The clear intent and consensus at the time was indeed to recognize sources, including self-published ones, as reliable sources, if that is what the relevant intellectual community considers them, and no real conflict with WP:SPS was perceived.

As I said, the impetus behind this section in WP:RS was the case of boxofficeindia.com. After a long debate at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_13#Boxofficeindia.com there was a consensus it was a reliable SPS. One redoubtable editor put it back then as "if it's being used as a source by the mainstream media, it should be okay for us" and felt that the meaning of WP:SPS "could be stretched in this case to include being used as a source for other publications, because the material isn't contentious."John Z (talk) 23:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Software Top 100: a reliable source on large software companies

The Software Top 100 is verifiable, as it quotes material from annual reports, and clearly displays its methodology and calculations on its website. The Software Top 100 is online since 2003, and it is used by large software companies to review their competitive position and inform the public of their size. The point of view is neutral and objective: companies are only included on the basis of sufficient software revenues. Companies can not pay to be on the list, or something like that. The Top 100 Research Foundation makes the Software Top 100 on best effort, using its database with currently 10,000+ software companies. In doing the ranking, they do not differ from the makers of other rankings such as the Forbes 400 or the Fortune rankings, which do not claim to be complete, but do have a stated research methodology and a verifiable way of working.

Some time ago, it was decided by user Esoteric Rogue that the Software Top 100 is not a reliable source, and he proceeded to delete all links on Misplaced Pages to that source. His post on this noticeboard can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_38#softwaretop100.org . I do not agree with him. At the moment there is really no better source online for software company size than the Software Top 100. Try and compare with other sources and their methods: http://en.wikipedia.org/World%27s_largest_software_companies (Software Top 100 references were deleted from this page by Esoteric Rogue).

In general, it looks reliable because most of the data comes straight from SEC filings with no calculation involved. For comparison, we report Alexa Internet rankings for web sites, and that's also not completely reliable, and arguably less so than financial data; in fact, there's no completely reliable Internet ranking, and the same is probably true for software revenue. Where softwaretop100 is not so reliable is for entries where the actual software revenue had to be estimated (by them). That was the case of Sony, which only declares their "game" revenue; softwaretop100.org estimated that 10% of that is software revenue for instance. The same is true for Cisco; the estimate there was 30% of "service revenue". So, when citing individual entries, care should be taken to see how each was determined. That also makes the overall ranking less than absolute, but still informative. I'm concerned however that the site is mostly cited in press releases of companies that want to boost their standing. I did not find direct citations in WSJ, Forbes, or CNN Money articles (only in press releases reproduced on those sites). So, it's probably preferable to cite just the figures, and the method used to derive them, rather than rely on the rankings much. You could also try to find other tops of this kind. For Europe at least, IDC made one in 2006 Template:Nl icon . Pcap ping 11:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

http://www.thekingshighway.ca

Before we begin, yes I know it is a self-published website, and that nothing on the website itself establishes notability. Cameron Bevers, the writer, is a regional planner for the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario. However, he is certainly considered an expert on the topic, as the city of Toronto archives uses this website as the source for its description of the Highway 401 archive category. I can't link directly to the archives but if someone wants to see it before commenting.

I'm fairly certain I could find a recent newspaper article from a major newspaper that discusses him as well if the archives is not enough. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 18:17, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide examples of other sources using this website as a source? Where does the city of Toronto archives use this, for example? Jayjg 20:56, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

On the online toronto archives, many pictures have been digitized. Amongst these are pictures along the highway, and construction pics. When you go into a picture, they are organized by categories, such as "Highway 401" or "Road construction". When you click the 401 category, it brings up a synopsis of the history available from thekingshighway.ca (I'd provide a link to this, but it expires quickly. If you want a screenshot or step by step directions to get to it, I can do that).

He is also practically the subject of a Toronto Star article on cottage country highway traffic, (The article essentially "stars" him) as well as a brief mention in an article in the Hamilton Spectator. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 05:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Where are the online Toronto archives? Jayjg 02:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll give you step-by-step instructions to get to the description of Highway 401:

First, go to this page, and click on "Search the Archives' Database". This will open up a new window. In this new window, search for Highway 401. The first result should be "File 1 - Oblique aerial photograph showing Labatt's Brewery at Highway 401 and Islington Ave. - October 19, 1970". Click on it, and it opens in the right frame. Click on Subseries 5; Etobicoke Clerk's Dept. aerial photographs, and another new window will open. In this window, you should see Highway 401. Click it, and a new window will open with the description from Cameron Bevers website. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 03:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Does the City of Toronto website use Bevers' site for other material? Jayjg 01:22, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Not that I can find, unfortunately, but they don't have a Highway 404 or Highway 400 (the other two highways within Toronto) category as they do a Highway 401. Just the one instance that I can find, as well as those two newspaper articles. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 02:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

What do you want to use the website as a source for? --Insider201283 (talk) 02:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Mostly as a secondary source to back up primary statistics (items which can be verified by going to the subject yourself and measuring, for example, or items which are verifiable through Google satellite/street maps), and to fill in the occasional missing piece of history. I just don't want to be hassled when one of my 45 references is to a self-published source at WP:FAC... Though it would be nice to use it as a source in general for histories and routing, as the Ontario Ministry of Transportation kind of gave away its archives to its employees 10 years ago, and keeps sparse current records. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 18:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The mentions in a couple of newspapers aren't a strong indication of reliability, and the single use on a specific municipal website isn't strong either. I wish I could say it was reliable, but so far it's pretty weak. Jayjg 01:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget though that that municipal reference is from the 4th largest city in North America, through which the highway that his website is used as a reference for travels. I believe it qualifies as an established professional (both articles mention him being a highway historian) who is covered in third party publications. There certainly isn't anything out there that hampers the reliability of the site. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 15:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that a city that large would have many websites, though, maintained by many different individuals, departments, etc. This isn't a ringing endorsement by "the 4th largest city in North America", this is a single use on a specific website. And regarding the newspaper articles, one is from a relatively small newspaper that briefly mentions him, while the other is from a short article in an admittedly high circulation newspaper. I think that if you tried to create an article on Cameron Bevers it would quickly be deleted by AfD. I wish it were otherwise, as he seems to have an interesting website that he obviously does his best to maintain accurately, but he's still effectively a WP:SPS, and there's no real indication he's an "expert" in the Misplaced Pages sense (an academic who has published on the subject in various reliable sources). Jayjg 16:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I think being a planner for the province where the highway is, is enough expertise for basic facts. This isn't an academic topic, and we shouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot with academic standards. Squidfryerchef (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

You can think whatever you like, but the source fails WP:RS. Jayjg 00:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

A government highway planner writing about a highway certainly meets SPS. Squidfryerchef (talk) 03:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

A "a regional planner for the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario" does not qualify as "an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." And, no, being cited once on a municipal website does not count as "being published". Jayjg 01:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, yea... Thats what this board is for, sources that don't meet the generalized criteria of WP:RS to be discussed to see if consensus overrides the criteria. Also, the Hamilton Spectator is on par with the Toronto Star (it's the leading paper in Hamilton, which at 850000 people isn't just a dot on the map). Also keep in mind its being mentioned by the Toronto Archives, which is a government run ministry that deals with historical facts (as Cameron Bevers site does), not the personal blog of the mayors assistant. He is a regional planner for Central Ontario (established expert) who has been published in multiple reputable sources with regards to his expertise. It's not just a mention in an editorial in the Scarborough mirror, its an article devoted to him in the most published newspaper in the country. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 03:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The Hamilton Spectator has a circulation of 105,000. If it were an American newspaper, that would put it 78th on the List of newspapers in the United States by circulation - just behind the The Providence Journal, and just ahead of The Toledo Blade. Being cited once on one of a number of municipal website does not qualify as "being published", and being a regional planner for the Ministry of Transportation does not qualify one as "an established expert". Being a medical doctor does not make someone an "established expert" on, for example, various diseases, drugs, etc. Working in a government transportation office doesn't make someone an expert on the history of highways. Jayjg 01:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The Hamilton Spectator is published by the same media company as the Toronto Star, and both say he is a highway historian. Also, to compare to America with Canada doesn't make sense, as America has 10 times the population of Canada. Likewise comparing medicine, which is a rigorous and strict science with above average sourcing requirements, to history, which is the opposite. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 03:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree the Hamilton Spectator is undoubtedly a reliable source, but its article doesn't identify Bevers himself as an expert - and as his own Website acknowledges he only graduated in a field of transportation studies last year. Having said that, to echo Squidfryerchef, if the facts are basic and non-contentious, he'll probably do. Where he wouldn't suffice as a RS is, for example, in providing interpretation of the history of highway development in Ontario. Barnabypage (talk) 16:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Would it be acceptable as a secondary source summarizing the history when I use reliable primary sources to cover all the detailed facts that someone would actually challenge? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 23:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the ideal way for you to proceed would be to - by all means - use Bevers as a basis for research, but then find more authoritative sources for each assertion. If they are useful points and not controversial, but you can't find a source, it does (IMHO) no harm to put them in the article with a "citation needed" tag - another editor may come along who does have access to/knowledge of a good source. Barnabypage (talk) 12:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The bottom line is this; he is a WP:SPS. Even if The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal described him as a "highway historian", it still wouldn't satisfy the requirements of WP:SPS, specifically that he is "an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." The wording is explicit for a reason. Jayjg 04:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Schoolbook map(s)

These maps, File:Serbia_ethnic_6_8_century.png , File:Romania ethnic 6 8 century.png, File:Albania kosovo macedonia 6 8 century.png are based on "historical atlas for schools, published in Belgrade in 1970, representing a view of Yugoslav historians from that time". They claim that ethnic(Albanians the 1 and the 3) groups that were not present in the location shown some 500 years before they are considered to have made their appearance (See Origin of the Albanians). This has been pointed out, they have been discussed (Talk:Albanians#RfC:_RS_use_.28encyclopedia_of_6th_century_and_map_from_school_atlas.29) and the maps have been removed many times. But the creator (that does not deny that the source is a schoolbook from 1970's Yugoslavia) has readded them repeatedly and may have even used Sockpuppets to do so. diff, diff sock, diff, diff, sock diff. Despite being a prolific map maker in general he still seems to ignore WP:RS. Here he uses a random googled site(Remember Sarajevo) to compare his map with talk diff.Megistias (talk) 15:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

As you are an opponent of the inclusion of these maps, it strikes me that it is only fair to hear from a proponent before opining. Megistias, would you mind notifying the person who offers these maps of this discussion?--Wehwalt (talk) 15:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I have , i was actually looking for a tag to put there but i did not find it.Megistias (talk) 15:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Here he random googles websites again diff Megistias (talk) 15:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Take note that 1970's Yugoslavia was a Totalitarian state,in which the only legal political party was the League of Communists of SerbiaMegistias (talk)

General view among most World historians is that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians and that they always lived in Albania and maps that I made reflect exactly that. User:Megistias is an Greek nationalist who have very negative ethnic attitude towards Albanians and he push here his POV that Albanians came from somewhere else and that they did not lived in Albania in 6th century. It is a minority view among historians and one that is not generally accepted and he attacking my work and want to discredit my maps simply because I made them in accordance with generally accepted historical view. Also, I do not see why an official historical atlas for schools should not be reliable source, especially when it only reflect generally accepted view, not minority one that user:Megistias trying to push. As for maps, I made them few days ago, and it was user:Megistias who was removing them because of his claim that they are wrong. I made many maps for Misplaced Pages related to various countries and recently when I made few maps related to Albanian history (note that I am not Albanian, but Serb from Novi Sad), user:Megistias started to attack my work, first in Wikimedia Commons, and now here, simply because my maps are not in accordance with his nationalistic anti-Albanian views. PANONIAN 16:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

As for Yugoslavia, it was not Soviet-type totalitarian state, but a country with its own more liberal form of socialism. I, however, fail to see how form of the state government of Yugoslavia would affect opinion of historians from that country, especially about subject (ethnic Albanians) that is unrelated to politics of Yugoslavia. Finally, does user:Megistias want to claim that all sources that come from China are unreliable because of the Chinese form of government? PANONIAN 16:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

All 3 maps are based on schoolbooks by a Totalitarian state.(No need to comment the rest as they are irrelevant and Panonian's personal viewpoint)Megistias (talk) 16:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Are all school books from China unreliable source then? PANONIAN 16:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, I do not see that user:Megistias presented here any reliable (or even unreliable)source that would support his claim that Albanians migrated to Albania in year 1300. As I see it, we have only his word for it. PANONIAN 16:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

This is not a forum for chit-chat so stay on topic ,Reliable Sources. Since you completely ignore the Albanian origin issue (only Albanian ultranationalists claim that they were always there and old theorists).

• Basic fact from a secondary source,Imagining frontiers, contesting identities by Steven G. Ellis,Lud'a Klusáková, "The Albanians arrived in Epirus from the north, but also from Thessaly where some clan had settled in the first decade of the 14th century,..."Megistias (talk) 16:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  • You obviously do not understand this source - term "Epirus" in this case means modern Epirus in Greece, not medieval despotate of Epirus, your source clearly say that "in 1337, the Albanians of Epirus Nova" "apperared for the first time in Epirus" (clearly, not in modern-day Albania, but in modern-day Epirus in Greece). PANONIAN 16:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Albanians arrived in the region in 14th century AD.Epirus Nova is the term used for the Roman province that was most of Albania, Epirus Vetus was the Old Epirus, the one in Greece. I perfectly understand my source.Megistias (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I know what "Epirus Nova" means, but your source does not mention that Albanians settled in Epirus Nova - it mention that "Albanians from Epirus Nova (Albania) settled in Epirus (Greece) in the 14th century". It does not mention that they settled in Epirus Nova - in fact it confirming sources from my atlas that they already were there. PANONIAN 16:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

American journal of philology, Tomes 98-99‎ -page 263,Basil Lanneau Gildersleeve, Tenney Frank, Harold Fredrik Cherniss, JSTOR (Organization), Project Muse - 1977,"It seems that the original home of the Albanians was in Northern Albania (Illyricum) rather than in the partly Hellenic and partly Hellenized Epirus Nova."Megistias (talk)

Original home from which century? There is difference between Albanian presence in different regions in different centuries. This source also does not contradict to my sources. PANONIAN 17:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You have no sources, you have a book from a Totalitarian state. All secondary sources contradict you.Megistias (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

That is just empty rhetorical claim - it is obvious that you do not have sources and that two sources that you presented here are not contradicting to my original source. Can you present to us something else or not? PANONIAN 17:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

As always you ignore what Reliable sources are which is the issue at hand. You "source" is a schoolbook by a Totalitarian state, that even makes an unreal claim, thus no WP:RS.Megistias (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I cannot ignore something that you never presented: you first have to present a source here and then I can say my opinion about that source. Also, how many times you will repeat words "totalitarian state" without answering my question are all sources from China then unreliable according to you? (and Yugoslavia was certainly more liberal country than China). Finally, you only objected here to presence of Albanians in south Albania, but why you removing from the articles my maps of Romania or Serbia? PANONIAN 17:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, if you avoid to give an answer to my question are all sources from China unreliable, you will show that you in fact do not have an opinion about sources from "totalitarian states", but that you simply trying to find all possible ways to discredit my sources (and my sources only) only because info presented in such sources do not confirm your personal POV. PANONIAN 17:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

China? Take it to a forum.Stay on topic, your source is unreliable, Schoolbooks are for children.Since the beginning it has been noted that all 3 maps are rejectable as their source is unreliable.Megistias (talk) 18:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Schoolbooks are for children, but were not written by children. Schoolbooks are written by their school professors and if you claim that school professors are not reliable source then, according to your idea, all children would leave schools as ignorants and idiots (and then you will come to enlight them, I presume?). You can act like a parrot, repeating over and over that my sources are not reliable, but I fail to see any proof for that. PANONIAN 19:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Collected Studies: Studies in Greek literature and history, excluding Epirus ... by Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond,page 499,"The Byzantine theme or province of Epirus Nova had in the extreme north Albanians, but the rest of the are had probably a mixed, mainly Greek-speaking people in the 11th and twelfth centuries. The first movement of the Albanians comes after the fall of Constantinople to the Latins in 1204."

• You are 600 years offMegistias (talk) 19:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

"Had probably"? Obviously, what you presenting here is just an theory whose author use word probably since he himself is not sure that it is correct. Also, as far as I know, Epirus Nova was not an administrative unit of Byzantine Empire in the 11th century, so your source obviously contains errors regarding historical timeline. Even if we forget these errors and fact that it is only assumption of that author, claims about Albanians from that source are only one theory about their origin and my map show another theory. I clearly noted on map page that it is a view of Yugoslav historians and I did not claimed that it is a "divine truth". If there are different theories about one subject, then I do not see why we cannot have several files illustrating each theory. Misplaced Pages is created as a project that is open for various ideas and points of view and it is not a church-type dogmatic project where only certain ideas and theories are forced and other are forbidden. PANONIAN 20:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Photobucket? Hammond is world-class scholar and you waste my time with answers like this? Read what Reliable sources areMegistias (talk) 20:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Then you perhaps quoted him in wrong way - how else could Epirus Nova province appear in the 11th century? PANONIAN 22:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Pannonian, names of themes,provinces the such are used in convention by scholars to define relevant regions.It is just like using familiar vs non-familiar toponyms for the sake of necessity.Megistias (talk) 22:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Even if he used name of Epirus Nova for wrong time period, he still refer to 11th century, not to 6th century (i.e. to the time after Slavic conquest of the Balkans). 11th century Greeks from that area could be settled there after Byzantine empire reconquered that area from Slavic/Bulgarian states in that century. Your source does not say anything about origin of these Greeks and it is hard to assume that they lived in Albania during Slavic rule. PANONIAN 22:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Read the source. What it states.Megistias (talk) 23:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Maps in 1970s Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia schoolbooks are not reliable sources. They're old and unscholarly, and come from a source not noted for factual accuracy or editorial oversight. Well, actually, yes for editorial oversight, but of a particular political kind. Jayjg 20:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What is a base for such conclusion, Jayjg? Do you have any background on which you would claim that schoolbook sources published in Yugoslavia in 1970 are not reliable? And where is proof that such source is "not noted for factual accuracy"? Finally, what political motive Yugoslav authors would have to falsify data about presence of Albanians in Albania or Romanians in Romania? These questions should be answered before final conclusion about accuracy of this source. PANONIAN 22:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, what is a point of a claim that source is old? See this category full of old ethnic maps: http://commons.wikimedia.org/Category:Historical_maps_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_Balkans - the map from 1970 is no different from these maps, but since it is not old enough to be used as a file free for usage in Misplaced Pages, I made new maps based on it and included them with a description that it is "according to Yugoslav historians from 1970". In similar way this Megali Idea article have a map made by the pro-Greek cartographer E. Stanford from 1878, illustrating his point of view (and this map is proved to be unreliable and contradict to other sources, while such contradictions were not proved when 1970 Yugoslav atlas is in question). PANONIAN 22:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Very old maps are like primary sources. That category in the commons is for actual old maps. From 100 years ago and more.Megistias (talk) 22:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Why cant you simply accept the simple fact, that a schoolbook is not RS and a schoolbook from Communist Yugoslavia is even more not RS?Megistias (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I will accept any opinion that come from reliable person with good faith and good knowledge about the subject. You do not have good faith in this question and you are known nationalist and POV pusher, and therefore your opinion means nothing to me. However, this issue is to be discussed further with other users. PANONIAN 22:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You have insulted me many times and you used Sockpuppets as indicated in the beggining of the section. Megistias (talk) 23:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

And now you remove my map based on Hammond with no reason at all...., Megistias (talk) 23:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

First, I do not have sockpuppets - I am not much active in English Misplaced Pages in recent times, so I do not logg in every time I edit some article. IP number of user who is not logged in is not an sockpuppet. Second, you are the one who harrasing me in various Wiki projects and you are one who disrupting my good-faith work, so how you excpect that I react to that? You expect that I love you or something? As for your map, info presented in it is different from what Hammond claims according to you, so I suspect that you did not based that map on Hammond, but on your own POV. PANONIAN 23:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

STOP NOW - this is not the location for the two of you to continue an endless argument. My suggestion... place two maps side by side, so that both POVs are visually represented. Blueboar (talk) 23:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me - placing two maps side by side is a good solution and I agree with it 100% PANONIAN 23:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hammond is not POV, the 70's schoollbook is. This is a simple issue and Pannonian has made it big for no reason.Megistias (talk) 23:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

It was Pannonians old browser. diffMegistias (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Your maps are based on unreliable sources thus they cannot be used. Its that simple.Megistias (talk) 23:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I see that according to Origin of the Albanians the claim of Albanians as autochthonus is highly disputed, not to mention that before 11th century they were never recorded. Moreover the Albanian-Ilyrian link is also something historically questionable. As far I see the map isn't historically correct even with the presence of Vlachs, not to mention other minor issues.

The main point is that the map avoids the entire western bibliography and can't be explained by any academic historical means. Alexikoua (talk) 23:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is western bibliography for you: http://books.google.com/books?id=ORSMBFwjAKcC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA5&vq=maps&output=html - I do not see why I cannot made maps based on this source. PANONIAN 18:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with placing highly pov material. Placing to pov is even worst, but Hammond is an expert in this field and I hardly believe its pov. @Megistias: You need to provide the specific pages with the relevant texts&maps, I remember that somewhere on the net I found a similar map directly scanned from Hammond's work.Alexikoua (talk) 23:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hammond's map is here ], it's identical to the one Megistias proposes. So it seems that is is quite reliable. On the other hand the 6th-8th century map is still of questionable value.Alexikoua (talk) 00:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

As was proposed on this page, both maps can be used, mine based on this and one made by Megistias, so that readers can see both points of view about the subject. PANONIAN 18:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Another source confirming data from my map

Here is an Internet source with similar map showing Albanian presence in the 8th century: http://books.google.com/books?id=ORSMBFwjAKcC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA5&vq=maps&output=html - I do not think that even Megistias can claim that this source is unreliable and not good enough to be used in Misplaced Pages. PANONIAN 18:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

As far I see this book, which is completely contradicting the entire western bibliography in this part, does not explain why the ancestors of today's Albanians, should been placed there. No descriptions, no explanations, no prove, no nothing. Moreover this book is focused on modern post 1800 history. If the authors believe this it's not our problem. Typical wp:fringe.

For example this: ], is not enough to claim that Columbus was Greek. Alexikoua (talk) 20:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

That is false analogy. I provided links to other sources here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Origin_of_the_Romanians#Schoolbook_map - you may claim that my souce is wrong because of two reasons: 1. if there are no other sources that confirming data presented there (and I presented several other sources with similar data), and 2. if it contradict to most other sources (but, contrary to your rhaethorical claim that my source "contradicting the entire western bibliography", you failed to provide any quotation from that bibliography that would really contradict to my sources. In fact those quotations provided by user:Megistias are not contradicting to my sources). PANONIAN 21:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry you didn't presented a single reliable work that confirms this. You still need to show this, and please do not post again questionable school atlases of past decades. Existing articles like Origin of Albanians, which are sourced, are in favor of Hammond's version.Alexikoua (talk) 06:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I presented two reliable sources, if you think that these sources are not reliable, it is your problem and your problem only. I have no time for your childish games. Get life, man... PANONIAN 02:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

What you presented here: ] doesn't meet wp:rs. Moreover I see that in this discussion you are not convincing the rest of the editors.Alexikoua (talk) 21:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I am convinced about the validity of the maps made by PANONIAN and so are a lot of other editors that the maps are wp:rs, but the Greek editors (Athenean, Megistias, Alexikoua) work to prove that the Albanians have no connections with the Illyrians. Their theory can be summarized as follows: Illyrians have disappeared. Thracians have disappeared. Albanians? We don't know where they came from: they are mentioned only in the 11th century. Probably moesians? Probably Thracians? Probably this or that? No theory is plausible because they are strange and no one knows who they really are. We just don't know and no one can. Casting a shadow of mystery seems like a very good plan to make today's Albanians seem as if they are foreigners in their own land, not autochtonous, which in the Balkans would be only the Greek population. No other population in the Balkans can enjoy the autochtonous status but the Greeks, according to these three editors. This is the standard that these three editors are following in all the history articles especially in the Illyrian Albanian articles that have been usurpated by them and that no Albanian editor dares to edit anymore because they will be provoked to edit-warring and then reported by any of the above three editors (most likely athenean) who work full time to assert the above ideas, and then an admin who will see the reaction of who took the bait will inevitably block the daring editor. Take a look at the cemetery of editors that this war has produced (Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Log_of_blocks_and_bans). It's full of Albanians and it's the biggest graveyard of truth you'll find in Misplaced Pages concerning the Balkan topics. The Greek editors above by working in tandem will make every edit possible to "forget" their own sources (read Ptolemy, Polibus and Stephanus of Bysantium - all Greeks), that the Albanoi Illyrian tribe has been mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century BC as Arbon, in the 2nd century AD by Polibus as Albanoi, and in the 6th century as Albonios by Stephanus of Bysantium as, see Origin_of_the_Albanians. That is proof of the continuity of the Illyrian-Albanian population and the world's historiography has already accepted it. It's the way it's studied in Albania, Russia, Germany, France, USA. In Greece there are other orders, I am affraid, but this is not the Greek Misplaced Pages. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 22:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not read all the above stuff, but here is what makes those maps unreliable: the source is an old schoolbook published during the Serbian communist period — a regime known for it's propaganda — while there are a lot of modern sources to follow. Another strange thing is that PANONIAN inserted those maps across all Wikipedias, making me sceptically.—Sebitalk 11:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I expanded my reference list on map pages and provided new sources in which similar maps can be found. There are some slight differences compared to the map from 1970 history atlas, but basic info about presence of ethnic groups is same in all these references. One of these references is The Times Atlas of World History published in 1984 (or more precisely its Yugoslav translation from 1986). I hope there is no objections to reliability of that source. Also, I do not see what propaganda Yugoslav regime might have regarding origin of Romanians or Albanians? Historical propaganda of Yugoslav regime from that time was mainly based on World War II liberation struggle and criticism of pre-war Yugoslav regime. 6th century ethnic relations in the Balkans were simply too unrelated subject to the political ideology of Yugoslavia. As for observation that I "inserted those maps across all Wikipedias", I always insert all my maps across all Wikipedias, so what is a problem with that? PANONIAN 17:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

To repeat what should not need repeating, maps in 1970s Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia schoolbooks are not reliable sources. They're old and unscholarly, and come from a source not noted for factual accuracy or editorial oversight. They cannot be used in Misplaced Pages articles, or as sources in Misplaced Pages articles. Jayjg 01:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I expanded reference lists on map pages and added some "newer" sources that are confirming data from 1970 history atlas, so maps are not based on that atlas only. I also did not asked that you repeat your claim but to provide an explanation why you consider 1970 atlas to be "unscholarly" and "not noted for factual accuracy or editorial oversight". PANONIAN 10:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The sources you initially used as well as those you later used did not change the fact that what you claimed, is not substantiated. Hxseek has at the lower part of this discussion Talk:Origin_of_the_Romanians#Proposal elaborated to you, again these facts. You have been told this by admin(the admin told you the same thing i did) & user level editors. Please just comply with the consensus of the community and stop blindly denying.Megistias (talk) 10:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Megistias, please do not interrupt my discussion with another user. Your stance about this is well known and you have no reason to repeat yourself over and over. I asked User:Jayjg for explanation of his view and he is the one who should answer to that question, not you, Megistias. And what "consensus of the community" you speak about? You and user:Hxseek are both politically motived and you are not valid persons to judge my work or my sources. Of course, I hope I can have constructive discussion about this with user:Jayjg. PANONIAN 09:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Adding reliable sources (if you have indeed found reliable sources) does not magically make unreliable sources reliable. The issue is not content, but editorial oversight and a reputation for fact checking. Maps in 1970s Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia schoolbooks do not qualify. They're old and unscholarly, and come from a source not noted for factual accuracy or editorial oversight. They cannot be used in Misplaced Pages articles, or as sources in Misplaced Pages articles. I won't be repeating that a fourth time. Jayjg 04:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, can we have a resonable constructive discussion here or not? No matter if you are an admin or not, you still have to elaborate why you think that sources from Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia are unreliable. Who exactly said (and where) that these sources are unreliable? As for "editorial oversight and a reputation for fact checking", source could be checked in the National Library in Belgrade in any time and it is a source from official educational system of Yugoslavia, so how exactly it can lack an "editorial oversight"? PANONIAN 10:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

If your map is reliable, please find it in a book that wasn't published at gunpoint. Any historian will tell you that socialists more often than not rewrote history in their favour, and to make themselves into martyrs. Would I trust a map made by the communist party of China that shows the history of China? No, I wouldn't. I would trust one made by an independent map maker, however. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 16:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I did found that map in other sources (for example in The Times Atlas of World History, Times Books Limited, London, 1984, see reference list on map page: http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Albania_kosovo_macedonia_6_8_century.png ). Maps in both books are almost same. There are some minnor differences in them but basic info regarding presence of Albanians (which was a disputed subject here) is same in both sources, Yugoslav atlas from 1970 and in The Times Atlas of World History from 1984. Also, I agree that Yugoslav socialist historians did to certain point wrote history in their favour, but, as I already pointed out, this was related to WW2 occupation of Yugoslavia and pre-war Yugoslav regime, but these historians did not had interest or motive to write medieval history in their favor, especially if we speak about map that show autochtonic origin of the Albanians in the Balkans (an historical opinion which certainly would not be in favor of any Yugoslav state since Yugoslavia ruled parts of Albanian-inhabited territories and Yugoslav historians did not had any interest to write history in favor of Albanians). The only problem here is that some Wiki users are trying to use all possible ways in attempt to discredit my map which show historical opinion about autochtonic origin of Albanians in the Balkans. User:Megistias already tried to use similar tactics in Wikimedia Commons trying to discredit and delete some of my maps. He first claimed that maps are not accurate, then claimed that my sources are not reliable and then he even claimed that I forged sources, so I had to upload scaned pages from two books to show that same map is published in these books. That is an dirty POV campain against my good-faith work. PANONIAN 20:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

EInsiders.com

Is EInsiders.com a reliable source? The website has been around since before 1996, it has several very well known and well respected editors with editorial oversight to their content. EInsiders is on the internet, on several TV stations and has a radio show. Information is 3rd party verified. The editors are all long-term members of the Film Critics association and are high level professionals in the field of their expertise, the film industry. Other large publications use them for a source and often cite them as a source for information. They are on the list of approved film critics with Rotten Tomatoes and show up in the Rotten Tomato movie reviews as an official film critic. (I use Rotten Tomatoes as an example because they are used as a reliable source on Wiki and EInsiders.com is the source for some of that info) They attend film festivals and press-only movie screening by invitation from film PR firms and do live interviews with cast and report directly from the events. I can't find anything that would make EInsiders not a credible source. Please let me know if that is enough for reliability. Pharaway (talk) 05:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Please see the background of this dispute here. The issue at first was not that the site was not "reliable", it was that in every one of your edits, you were adding that site. That was back in December and then in January and it was explained to you and you were warned. Now you are not only doing the same thing, you are removing existing reliable sources and adding that site claiming "the Einsiders report was posted 24 hours before the Daily Mail". However, I am glad you finally brought this issue up here. —Mike Allen 05:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

And here is the source of the conflict - Mike Allen, who for some reason is making false allegations and harassing my edits and mytalk page. My "claim" as you call it after you posted lies on mytalk page, was that I cited EInsiders originally. EInsiders was removed and replaced with yours. I simply reverted it back to the original as I believe it is valid and reliable. So stop making stuff up Mike. Pharaway (talk) 06:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

This is absolute nonsense! "False allegations and harassing"? That was your fist time adding the EI source on that article (link above) and I reverted your edit (clicked one button), which in turn reverted back to the original source, Daily Mail. I didn't manually go in .. never mind it's late and I can't believe this. I'll let the edit summaries speak for themselves, as all of this is documented. Also, your talk page is there for issues like this, which I exercised AGF (at first) and then BRD and if this keeps escalating, I will take this to WP:ANI or WP:DISPUTE (which ever is the correct party to go to). —Mike Allen 07:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Mike, why don't you just take a second to calm down. EInsiders was the original source. I am the original author on the article and I put Einsiders as the source. It was changed to the Daily Mail. I reverted it to EInsiders. A simple viewing of the history will show you that. The purpose here is to have others weigh in on if EInsiders meets Wiki's guidelines as a reputable source. It is my position that it does and, since other authors have also used it, I believe the general consensus will be in agreement with me. You need to stop the accusations and your shrill behavior. Pharaway (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Since you forgot to sign in with your user name and post here, your IP is now in the page History. Now that I look at the page, it was the IP (yours) that first added the site of that page. You didn't bother to tell anyone that. I'm done speaking with you, I would like someone else to speak about this mess. —Mike Allen 20:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

What "mess"? Are you really this upset because you don't like a cite that I use? None of the information has been proven inaccurate and thank goodness you now realize that your accusation that I replaced a cite with an EInsiders cite is wrong. You don't seem to have a problem with the information that I post. You aren't disputing the validity of any of my edits. You are just this upset because you want a different reference used as the cite for the same information?? Don't you think you are over-reacting?Pharaway (talk) 03:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I am going to bypass the above for now, and look at the original question posed by Pharaway. EInsiders does not have an "about us" link on its site. I can see nothing about who creates it. Its creators appear to be good at media marketing / linking - they've got facebook links, twitter etc, but at its core it is an unverifiable site for which a google search, and a google news search, fails to turn up other obvious commentary that might attest to its reliability. Sorry, Pharaway, but my examination suggests it fails the test. Assuming the source happens to get those death dates correct, your best bet is to use that as a heads-up, go to the newspapers online in following days and find a reliable source. If other editors replace an EI ref with a reliable source, i recommend those revisions be allowed to stand. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to bypass these last few days also, and comment if you will. ;-) The site has no "About us" and that is frowned upon. There's no way to find out who the website belongs too, who runs it and how do we know these editors are part of the Film Critics Association? The "editors" seem to be just regular people that review films. , . Who is Jonathan W. Hickman? His profile doesn't say anything about being part of the FCA. What makes this obituary significant over other obituaries, such as this one? Who is Kathy Stover, where did she get her sources? The site just looks like a big community site, where anyone can review films, add people as friends, etc I just can't see it being used as a reliable source for BL(and dead)P or well.. any article. I'm sorry. —Mike Allen 05:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of whether einsiders.com is a reliable source, the discussion at WP:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User Pharaway shows a consensus that there has been an undue promotion of the site. Above, Pharaway states that the site is well known, with well respected editors and editorial oversight. However, I do not see anyway to verify these claims and I see no reason to regard einsiders as a reliable source. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

On the EInsiders site itself, there are video interviews with Jonathan Hickman and Scott Mantz, among others. Most recently, there are videos of the two of them as official press at the 2010 Sundance Film Festival. If yous listen to the videos, as I have, a good bit of these questions are answered. . On it is a movie review that he also licensed to EInsiders - not as an aggregator, but as an owner and official writer. How do I know this? Because Scott Mantz is on the video saying it on the Einsider's website. Also, he told me that in person - I had the opportunity to meet him. To prove my statement that EInsiders is well respected, here is a

(moved from a talk page) Off the very top of my head, Kim Walker and Ashleigh Aston Moore would be examples that illustrate my point. Both actors are obviously notable but their deaths were merely blips on the radar in the media. I spend quite a bit of time working on fairly obscure dead actors' articles which means I know where to look for even the smallest mention of a obit. In those cases, none can be found except for Einsiders. While I'm fully aware that any unsourced content can be removed or challenged by anyone, I do not believe a notable person's death should fall into that category. In both cases, the deaths were covered by an outside source. For whatever reason, this source is being called into question. If possible, I'd like to be pointed to the discussion regarding the reliability of this link. Aside from it being spammed by some person for whatever reason, I've never found any problem with the actual site itself. Again, if there's something I'm missing please about this situation, feel free to clue me in. Pinkadelica 05:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

See here for the RSN discussion. The site doesn't cite where they get their information, there is no About Us, no one knows who those authors are. For example this is not a professional obituary:

"DANNY DUKES Died Dec. 3, 2007

Adult film actor Danny Dukes (real name Danny Salas Jr.) died of a drug overdose at age 33. Mr. Dukes acted in several adult films between 2002 and 2004. He was also a sometime agent. He leaves behind a young son. Prayers of comfort for his family and friends. Some say that the adult film industry leads to drug abuse. Of course there are enough examples of legit film industry insiders getting hooked on drugs to make one wonder about such blanket condemnations. However, the bottom line is this, drugs will kill you. First they will kill your soul, then your body. All that remains is the pain you leave behind because you didn't care enough to fight the addiction" There are more examples, but their site is down, again for me. —Mike Allen 06:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Is Danny Dukes on Wiki cited by EInsiders? Aren't there other deaths noted on EInsiders that are more formal obituaries? - YES. Pinkadelica is absolutely correct and is one of the reasons I use EInsiders regularly. The answer to who the authors are has been answered repeatedly with links to outside websites covering awards that some of the authors have been given within the industry. So Mike Allen's claim that he doesn't know who they are just doesn't hold up. Mike Allen in on a vendetta, it looks like there is a cOI with him affiliated with a competing entity. Why else this vehement stance? He has literally taken down almost TEN YEARS worth OF CITES from EInsiders and replaced the EInsider's cite with cites from his "pet" references but he has NOT changed the text/content that is EInsider's content including photos pulled from EInsiders website! No one has that much of an issue unless they are competing. A COI should be opened against him. EInsiders has met the Wiki guidelines for a reliable source - 1. longevity: EInsiders has been on the web since 1996. 2. Editorial oversight: the editors have been pointed out and shown to be high-ranking, respectable professionals in the industry with industry awards to their names. Pharaway (talk) 22:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I think consensus has been established here. Thank you. —Mike Allen 01:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What the best way is to offer further 'proof that Einsiders.com is not a bona fide source; information on ownership, persons involved, etc. — that is, without violating terms here, etc.842U (talk) 03:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are asking. You have asked me previously to "vet" EInsiders as a source. Then when I went out and vetted them, finding as much information as I could about their editors, etc, you claim I "know too much" about them and use it to try and prove that there is a Conflict of Interest, and attempt to get me banned. Seems like foul play to me and a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. Bottom line is that you don't intend to allow EInsiders as a reliable source no matter what. You could find out that they are owned by the New York Times and overseen by their editors and you still wouldn't allow them as a reliable source. EInsiders meets all of Wiki's guidelines to be a reliable source. Pharaway (talk) 15:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Because of your behavior, others have vetted your sources and discovered that EIinsiders.com is operated by an advertising company, the same advertising company that you posted from, when you inadvertently posted your ISP. Several of your edits into Misplaced Pages articles inserted the very name of a key person at both the advertising company and the EInsiders.com site. So in a short period of time it became clear that EIinsiders.com, being owned and operated by a company whose job is to among other things promote and create demand where there is none... and rather pertantly, optimize search engine results... isn't a reliable source; they are a highly biased source. It became very clear as well, that someone from that very same company, you, was doing the ref-spamming. This is a conflict of interest, and highly discouraged. The other issues, the photo issue (which is self-resolving) and your aggressive suggestions that Mike Allen or others in the discussion are sinister representatives of other media outlets (are, in other words, your competition) are ruses, meant to divert attention from your behavior. So, essentially, game over. There may be some formalization of these findings, blockages, etc. In the meantime, take care.842U (talk) 16:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What edits have the name of an advertising company? I put in mostly death notices? The rest were film edits. This is becoming ridiculous.Pharaway (talk) 16:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

You made edits including quotations from a "film critic" who happens also to be ] self-described as "president" of EInsiders.com, whose web site was created by a certain advertising company... for whom said "film critic" is also listed under that same advertising company's website "who we are" section, which lists... three people. Here the "film critic" and "president" is listed as "producer." 842U (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The "film critic" Jonathan Hickman. Which is the editor-in-chief of einsiders.com. Funny that you didn't bother to post the company that owns einsider.com, about us. BrightNight Media, which is an advertising company. Source —Mike Allen 19:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I brought the issue up about Scott Mantz on Pharaway's talk page, Scott Mantz is a critic for Access Hollywood, but his profile on einsiders says nothing, on RottenTomatoes the same search for Scott Mantz gives you his full bio and links to his original reviews, einsiders passes him off as one of their reviewers. Scott Mantz et al. are legit reviewers, einsiders is not. Darrenhusted (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

And so EInsiders, which stands for Entertainment Insiders, appears more comprised of... outsiders.842U (talk) 19:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Pakistani and Iranian media, and Cageprisoners

Hi. I would appreciate peoples' views on whether the below news sources (primarily Pakistani and Iranian) are RSs for controversial reports concerning Aafia Siddiqui, a Pakistani accused of being an al-Qaeda member (who was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon and attempting to kill U.S. soldiers and FBI agents).

There has been a deep divide over many Pakistani reports (which the Boston Globe, for example, has described as "sketchy") and many RS reports in this area.

1. Daily Times (Pakistan) (Discussion here suggests no). whoops -- as pointed out below, prior conversation (which mentioned DT in passing) is about different paper.
2. Press TV (Iran) (Discussion here suggests it is questionable for a range of topics).
3. Tehran Times (Iran) (also mentioned in the above Press TV discussion)
4. Cageprisoners (an organization, not a newspaper)
5. DAWN (Pakistan)
6. The News International (Pakistan)
7. Associated Press of Pakistan
8. The Nation (Pakistan) (Discussion here suggests possibly)

Thanks. --Epeefleche (talk) 23:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Globe article doesn't say which reports from Pakistan it thinks are sketchy; they could be refering to anything. If we're writing about events in Pakistan, we're going to be citing some Pakistani newspapers. One jumps out at me; the Daily Times of Pakistan is not the same as the Pakistan Daily which is what the linked debate is about. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Quick notes: The Dawn is arguably the most influential/reputable newspaper in Pakistan. The News is published Jang Group (which IIRC is the largest newspaper publisher in the country) and is also a well-established mainstream source. Daily Times (Pakistan) is relatively new but a legitimate and mainstream newspaper. Associated Press of Pakistan is also a genuine and well-established newswire service. FWIW, Nexis archives, Daily Times and The Nation among these Pakistani sources. Though I am sure that all these sources can be faulted with a pro-Pakistan bias (not same as pro-Pakistan government bias, except that APP is partially govt. controlled), I'd regard these newspapers as reliable sources, as defined on wikipedia. Of course, we need to take the usual precautions i.e., consider due weight, use attribution when warranted, and beware of redflag claims, or claims contradicted by other sources etc. Abecedare (talk) 00:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Note: Boston Globe saying that "With her whereabouts unknown, sketchy reports in Pakistani papers suggested ..." simply means that the newspaper reports are not detailed/confirmed, which reflects the difficulty in obtaining verifiable information, and is not a comment on the Pakistan newspapers reliability. Abecedare (talk) 01:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess my first question would be, is there freedom of the press in Pakistan? Any people here particularly knowledgeable in that arena? IronDuke 02:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Well it gets complicated. The newspapers are not state controlled and are often known to take confrontational position with respect to the government of the day. There is no widespread press censorship per se, or administrative review of articles before publication. On the other hand, the government can restrict reporters (esp. foreign media) from geographical areas citing security, and there are many tools (licensing, advertising support, paper prices, political pressure, general harassment) that it can and does use to pressure journalists and newspapers. There is no equivalent of the first amendment right, and finally the journalistic standards are themselves not as high as the most highly regarded media in US and Europe. So it's not as bad as North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia or communist era USSR etc, but not really comparable to Western countries either. Don't know if this helps much. Abecedare (talk) 03:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, this might give a rough idea: Press Freedom Index. Note that the conditions can change considerably depending on the prevailing political situation. Abecedare (talk) 03:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Some background on freedom of the media in Pakistan (or lack of it) can be found here: "Press not free in Pakistan, says Freedom House" and here: "Map of Press Freedom", and info on pressures on the media in Pakistan can be found here: "Attacks on the Press 2009: Pakistan" and here: "5 journalists killed, 17 arrested, 61 injured, 27 harassed; 11 attacks on media property, 16 cases of gag orders; Annual State of Pakistan Media Report 2006-07". Information on Iran's freedom of the press can be found here: "Map of Press Freedom; 2009".--Epeefleche (talk) 04:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Dawn (newspaper) it seems clearly reliable and important to use for neutrality, for such edits as the one removed here. Despite the recent conviction, the fact that the people and government of Pakistan strongly and formally contend that she is innocent should be represented better. Such Pakistani sources are surely reliable when used with attribution in text, and the US government version should not be presented as fact, but as a (majority) view where there is a discrepancy. Abecedare's statements seem sensible to me.John Z (talk) 11:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think Abecedare has got it right. --JN466 12:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Subcontinental newspapers sometimes just make stuff up to sell more papers sometimes and get a bit of attention as well, and are far more sensationalist than western media, generally YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• In addition to the markedly negative Press Freedom Index rating for Pakistan, and the non-specific hazy criticism of The Boston Globe, and the above information on unusual pressure on the media (through killings and the like), we have this recent interesting summary of the long history and current state of questionable reporting by the Pakistani media (in general) here by TIME.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Glantz/House Kursk

i have big doubts regarding this book. i explained on the discussion page of battle of kursk. first of all the book is convicted with using rotmistrovs steelguard as source, the book is claiming that the myth of prokhorvka is true. furthermore the claims of the strenghts are rediculous. i explained on the dischussionpage. while i think glantz is a reliable historian his book kursk seems to be punked by russian sources ( rotmistrov for example ). without checking german archival sources this book printed claims created by soviet propaganda. glantz is supporting the opinion that the red army was superior in many cases ( which is maybe possible but this is not the point) , he supports this claims with taking wrong strenght numbers and comparing them. his "ratios" are cited in the "battle of kursk" articles. for example he gives and overexxagrated number of german tanks and "forgots" the steppe front. so his ratios are simply ridicolous... . newer research is discrediting many statements of him. zetterling/frankson , have written an book about the statistical analyse of kursk and we see that glantz simply faked the numbers. "Das deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Vol.8 " (2007) has an entire chapter regarding the prokhorovka myth. i explained this problem on the discussion page but nobody responed glantz is still even cited for the prokhorvka battle which is very sad... Blablaaa (talk) 16:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you give a more complete description of the source please? Jayjg 03:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Glantz, David M. & House, Jonathon (1995). When Titans Clashed; How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. University of Kansas Press. iam not sure if the user who makes the dubios statements is citing this book because he seems to own Glantz/ House ... Kursk too. but most of the dubios statements are from when titan clashed. i can present more dubios statements of the book about kursk. again i have to say that i dont think glantz is not reliable, but his statements about kursk are more than wrongBlablaaa (talk) 11:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This user has misquoted from sources and trying to elbow this author out because his figures don't fit with his distorted view of events. Please ingore this. David Glantz is one of the most formidable academics in the field of Soviet military art. It is a disgrace that some anon of the internet questions that he 'ain't releiable'. Dapi89 (talk) 11:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

ok than explain to me why he is forgeting entire fronts for his strenght ratios. explain to me? u cant... explain to me why he is using rotmistrov. u cant.... . Rebut my points and dont say "ignore the user"....

so i ordered the newer book Kursk 1943, i will check what this book says then we can go on. Blablaaa (talk) 21:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

to make my point clear, iam not disputing the reliability of glantz in general but his book when titans clashed. and here particulary his numbers . now the examples. operation zitadelle is the name for the german pincer attack for kursk. glantz(i can only say what the user is citing ) lists 3,xxx russian tanks. when i check the latest sources i see this number are correct but only the numbers for two of three fronts. the first defensiv lines were manned by 2 fronts and behind them the steppe front as reserve (reserves are always listed in strenght because they are important for the outcome used or not doesnt madder), this steppe front was used very ofthen with more than 1000 tanks in action and fighting. even if this front would not participated it should be mentioned but it was used. so if glantz really gives this numbers for zitadelle he simply faked the numbers. after this he takes his numbers to create tank ratios, he explaining 1:1,5 tanks , because russian only had this 3000 tanks.... than the user is arguing glantz uses this ratio to explain their was no numerical superiority . this totally absurd because this tanks were fighting . and i not even mention that the brijansk front with its 1xxx tanks started to attack the 2nd Panzerarmy. iam not sure what glantz really says but this dubios. the user who cites glantz own both books "when titans clashed(1995)" and "kursk 1943(2070)" but he is always citing the older one so i think glantz himself uses other numbers in his newer book. if the user only owns the old book than forget what i wrote. there are more examples if u want i can explain. dont hesitat to ask meBlablaaa (talk) 20:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I am an interested editor from the Kursk article. David Glantz is a well known and respected WWII historian. I believe that to consider his book, or just some specific numbers from it, as unreliable, it will take more than having differences with another reliable source. Grigoriy Krivosheyev's recent study is considered seminal for Russian figures, but I don't think it's enough to prove Glantz unreliable in the wikipedia sense; that would require exceptionally good sources who specifically opine that Glantz's research was flawed. My understanding is that when reliable sources differ, editors don't get to play favourites unless there is consensus to prefer particular sources (and so, Krivoshe(y)ev's figures should also be considered reliable.)

I'd suggest that trying to play one source against another to decide that another must be "wrong" is Original research/Synthesis, unless the evidence is so overwhelming as to prove one is a fringe opinion. I note there is no bulk of reliable sources to criticise Glantz.

Also, I would ask fellow editors to be civil, and focus on the question, not other editors. Hohum 21:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

lets stick to the point. i dont say he is unreliable but i think his numbers for zitadelle are. thats why iam really interested in his book Kursk, we talk here about "when titans clashed" this book is 12 years older. and please hohum tell me your opinion about "forgeting" the steppe front? i know our opinion is irrelevant....

he only lists central and voronezh front. why? and again i have to repeat myself iam not sure if glantz says this or the user who cites him. glantz doesnt count the reserves, while he is counting the germans reservers which took not part. hes counting german passiv reserves but not russian activ ones. who can we use his numbers then ? we have zetterling 200x and frieser 2007. even if we say glantz is reliable than his numbers should be not used for this article. Blablaaa (talk) 21:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

If two experts disagree, we generally write the disagreement. "The Soviet forces included 5000 tanks (according to Glantz) or 10000 tanks (according to Krivosheyev)". Experts do sometimes disagree. But we do need to be able to cite the disagreeing experts on each side, we can't just write "Glantz writes 5000 tanks, which we're sure is wrong." --GRuban (talk) 21:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

they both have the same number but one of them is missing a front/armygroup/Heeresgruppe. i think we can give both numbers but than the infobox becomes very huge. is there a possibility that somebody decides which source is better for the box. zetterling frankson wrote a book only about the numbers of kursk.... .the other numbers can be explained in the text, in the text its easy to explain the numbers and the reader will see fast that glantz simply missed a front which took part and his numbers are nonsense.... . another issue: glantz is quoting the myth of prokhorovka , what now? Blablaaa (talk) 22:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of wikipedia is to reflect the information provided by reliable sources, not compare a bunch of reliable sources and then only use our favourites, even if the others seem wrong to us (whether it be authors, their books, or a specific number). It's not up to us to critique why one author came up with one number, and another author a different one. As long as they are both/all reliable, and Glantz, Krivosheev, Zetterling, and several others are, then we repeat what they say. If the quality of particular sources is obviously higher - as decided by knowledgeable book reviewers, then it's suitable to prefer one, but I don't much difference in praise for Glantz, Krivosheev, Zetterling, etc.

If the numbers quoted are for different groups of troops, then we ought to point out those differences, not just keep the ones a particular editor likes. Hohum 22:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

• " not just keep the ones a particular editor likes."

argh, this has nothing to do with "like" or POV or bias, here its : correct or wrong. its simply wrong. and we have more then one historian saying this. most historian include all participating troops and one does not! and what is with prokhorovka, what is neccessary that wikipedia dont uses historians which are punked by the myth? Blablaaa (talk) 22:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

No, we have you saying you think one author is wrong, because you think another author is right, while another editor does the opposite.

Read WP:V:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source (see below), not whether editors think it is true."

"Most" historians disagree? You've given one, and he isn't disagreeing with Glantz, he's just presented different numbers, since he is using different sources. Hohum 22:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

no he is not using other sources -.- frieser and zetterling and frankson are counting all participating tanks and glantz not. i explained it so well i think, glantz is giving the number for central and voronez and the other historians give central voronez and steppe, which is the "truth" because steppe fought in the south. but when your green sentence is correct than the discussion is over because glantz is glantz. but its a bit sobering, isnt it ? i only hope that glantz dont decide to say germany won WWII because than wiki will start publishing this . iam sure there is a wikirule against being funny. so sorry for this.... Blablaaa (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

If Glantz ever says that, there will be no shortage of reliable sources specifically criticizing his reliability on that point. Hohum 01:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I have, however, heard people say that Japan won WWII. They were mostly from Detroit... --GRuban (talk) 14:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

David Glantz is a respected historian, with many published works to his credit. The book was published by a university press. As such, it would generally be considered to be a very reliable source. Jayjg 02:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Nice guys and HBI

My question is whether Heartless Bitches International, http://www.heartless-bitches.com, can be considered a reliable source for the article Nice guy. I don't think it can be, as they call their essays "rants", which suggest they fall under WP:RS#Statements of opinion, even if not questionable. I have pointed the participants there to this discussion. As I seem to be alone among the editors there, I thought I'd bring the matter to the relevant noticeboard. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Statements of opinion are reliable sources that such an opinion exists. (Notability is a separate question, which I'm not going to address - I have no idea whether HBI is enough to establish notability of an opinion.) However, it appears that the article in question is proferring the "not-really-nice-guy" idea as a possibly-correct explanation for a phenomenon, not just as an unsubstantiated opinion on that phenomenon. This goes somewhat beyond what can be established from this source. Homunq (talk) 19:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

ps. As always, you should seek consensus when addressing this issue. Homunq (talk) 22:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

If a source isn't reliable, then it isn't reliable, and can't be used, even to indicate "that such an opinion exists". There are millions of websites out there, and there's no indication that this one has significant editorial oversight or a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Looks like a fun site to read, but it can't be used as a source. Jayjg 03:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree wtih Jay. Context is important in reliability... In the context of verifying that an opinion exists, any source that contains the opinion is a "reliable source". However... we need to remember that "reliability" is not the be-all and end-all of Misplaced Pages... there are other policies and guidelines that need to be considered, and there are other questions that need to be asked. The most important being: Should the article be discussing the existance of the opinion in the first place? If the best source you can find for the existance of an opinion is some nut job's website... then the answer to this question is probably "No, we should not include discussion of the opinion, because doing so whould give the opinion undue weight." The issue of whether the nut job's website is reliable in the context of the statment becomes purely accademic, because you should not be making the statement in the first place. Blueboar (talk) 03:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I see no evidence of having earned a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. No, it's not a WP:RS. Without third-party reliable sources addressing HBI's opinions, it also fails on WP:UNDUE. Unfortunately, we have editors who think that just because something is one a website, that means we can use it to source an article. Completely untrue. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Blueboar, context is indeed important, but you are completely incorrect when you say "In the context of verifying that an opinion exists, any source that contains the opinion is a "reliable source"." Remember, Misplaced Pages is simply not interested in the opinions of unreliable sources, not what they are, nor even if they exist, except if reliable sources comment on them. If reliable sources discuss the opinions of www.heartless-bitches.com, then Misplaced Pages may also do so. Otherwise, their opinions are not relevant to Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is an encylopedia, not a summary of the internet. Jayjg 02:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

As to whether reliable sources are commenting on the content of the HBI website, some mentions of HBI in US, Canadian, Irish, Danish, UK, Australian and New Zealand media can be found at the following url, including several interviews/articles specifically devoted to the 'Nice Guy' issue: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/press/sitings.shtml

If there are doubts about the prevalence of the opinion expressed on the HBI site within popular culture, then logically there are at least two remedies: 1. remove the source, or 2. provide additional sources of the same opinion appearing in art and popular culture. One such source is the XKCD web comic which treated the subject along the same lines as the HBI site (http://xkcd.com/513/). --Distinguisher (talk) 16:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

One can cite reliable sources that discuss the opinions of www.heartless-bitches.com, not the website itself. I'm not sure why you think a web comic would qualify as a reliable source. And citing "additional sources of the same opinion appearing in art and popular culture" is quite blatant original research based on a Misplaced Pages editor's analysis of primary sources. Jayjg 03:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

There is also a long list of links to media sources discussing the HBI site among the references on the Misplaced Pages entry for Heartless Bitches International. Yes, it has its own entry. When there are differing opinions on a subject, citing sources of those opinions is perfectly legitimate. If the nice guy article were using the HBI to support claims of fact about nice guys, then we could question whether it is a reliable source for that purpose, but to support the claim that such a view exists, it is unquestionably reliable. A web comic can also function in the same way, so long as the article also refers to it as an example of the way the concept has been treated in internet culture.--Distinguisher (talk) 09:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you reviewed WP:V and WP:NOR? We only cite reliable sources, and we don't draw our own conclusions from them. That means we don't scour the web looking for primary sources to support our view that "such a view exists". Instead, we scour reliable secondary sources, to see what they say about such a view. www.heartless-bitches.com cannot be cited in any article except the Heartless Bitches International article, and even then with caution. Nor can a web comic be used in that way, unless a reliable secondary source brings it as an example of such views. This is very basic, elementary policy. Jayjg 22:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I encourage you to review the text of the section in question to see why WP:V is not an issue (Note that a misleading edit was made at around the time this issue was posted to this notice board which I have now reverted). Summarising content of a source does not constitute WP:NOR, and it would only be the case that "www.heartless-bitches.com cannot be cited in any article except the Heartless Bitches International article" if HBI did not meet notability criteria WP:WEB, but I think you have reached a conclusion about notability prematurely. The site "has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself" (you can review these among the references to the HBI article as already mentioned) and has also been nominated for a Webby Award (http://www.webbyawards.com/webbys/current.php?season=6).--Distinguisher (talk) 12:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Notability and reliability are unrelated concepts. A website does not become reliable simply because it is notable; we still, for example, cannot cite Misplaced Pages as a source, and it is far more notable than www.heartless-bitches.com. Please review WP:SPS, which is what www.heartless-bitches.com is. The website can only be used in an article about itself. Please also review WP:SYNTH. Drawing conclusions based on primary sources is not "summarizing content of a source". Drawing conclusions about "Nice guys" based on interpretations of the contents of web comics falls under WP:SYNTH at best, and in any event, it's unlikely any of those sources can be cited to begin with, as they do not qualify as WP:RS on the topic. Again, this is very basic, elementary policy; one cannot draw conclusions based on one's interpretation of a series of unreliable websites, as doing so is a fundamental violation of both WP:V and WP:NOR. Jayjg 01:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

"Drawing conclusions about 'Nice guys'" is simply not what is being done in the article with respect to the HBI sources. HBI is sourced in support of the claim that HBI published a number of essays about the subject (verifiable), a claim about what these essays say (verifiable), and the claim that they received many emails in response (they have 36 pages of these emails published on their site, so this appears to be the case, but a rewording along the lines of "HBI claims to have received many emails..." would be unambiguously verifiable since they do claim this). Hence, I strongly disagree with your assessment. The web comic is not referenced in the article. I mentioned this comic here as evidence of the prevalence of the opinion, an issue raised by Homunq. Your responses indicate that you haven't read the section in question, and I again encourage you to do so. --Distinguisher (talk) 11:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

You have, unfortunately, again misunderstood policy. Since www.heartless-bitches.com is not a reliable source, we don't care whether or not they published issues on the subject of "Nice guys". And since we don't care whether or not they published issues on the subject of "Nice guys", we certainly don't care what the content of those essays are either. And since we don't care that they published essays on the subject, nor what the contents of those essays are, we absolutely don't care about any emails they received on the subject. The only place www.heartless-bitches.com can be used in a Misplaced Pages article is in the Heartless Bitches International article itself, and even then with caution. There's no need to read the sections of the article in question, because policy is so obvious and clear on this point, that www.heartless-bitches.com cannot be used in any article except Heartless Bitches International. Furthermore, I already explained this to you in my post of 22:20, 19 February 2010; please review it and my other posts. Again, the website can only be used Heartless Bitches International article itself, and even then with caution. Rather than arguing against policy, please recognize it, and start abiding by it. Jayjg 15:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, we disagree about whether it violates policy. No source is reliable for all purposes. Reliability depends on the purpose a source is being used for, and even a source known to be unreliable about any subject one cares to mention is still a reliable source about things like its own existence and its own content. If you were writing an article about the lead up to a political riot and one of the factors that sparked it was a rumour circulated by an unreliable source, the content of that source would still be relevant to the article because of its role in events and, although not a reliable source in general, would still constitute a reliable source for establishing its own existence and the nature of its own content. The situation here is similar. The Nice Guy article speaks about an event in internet culture that was sparked by postings made on HBI without speaking to the truth of the content HBI published. Please respond to these points rather than merely repeating the assertions you have already made.--Distinguisher (talk) 17:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Distinguisher, you have made 218 total edits, including 165 mainspace edits, 84% to just 4 articles. You have edited 10 articles in total. You are wrong. Accept it, stop arguing, and move on. Jayjg 20:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

From WP:UNDUE: "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public." HBI is not a reliable source from this perspective. A blog on The Atlantic, for example, would be. But unless other sources are profferred, it's still just a throwaway line in just one source and does not merit a whole section in the article. Homunq (talk) 16:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

No. I'd suggest cutting the HBI section to a stub and moving it to our article on HBI. The "Nice Guy" issue is apparently a major thing with the HBI site, plus it's better-sourced in the Nice Guy article. Just move the sourced content to the HBI article, and either leave just a one-sentence mention of HBI or a "See Also" wikilink at the bottom. While in the past I've stood up for blog-like sources that are at some level really published by an organization, this is a case where pseudonymous bloggers are publishing anonymous contributions, so there's no way for HBI to be considered as a secondary source nor an expert SPS, and a little attention on Fark.com is not a strong indication of notablity on the topic. HBI can be a primary source in the article about HBI. Squidfryerchef (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree, except that there should be no "one-sentence" mention of HBI in the "Nice guys" article. Jayjg 20:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com (AKA "Cambridge Encyclopedia")

An editor wanted to use this as a source with this edit (and back through redacts) and seemed pretty adamant it was a valid source . But AFAIKS the site states that "Portions of the summary below have been contributed by Misplaced Pages.". I have added it to . This entry is added should the other editor want to question this addition. If there is no questions then I'll zap whatever link we have in other articles. Ttiotsw (talk) 04:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

One hint that a web site is a reliable source is contact information, including names of the editor-in-chief or equivalent, and a snail mail address to write to. Since this site has nothing like that, I would dismiss it as a reliable source. Jc3s5h (talk) 05:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

How about this...

The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Russia and the Former Soviet Union (Cambridge World Encyclopedias) ~ Archie Brown (Editor), Michael Kaser (Editor) # Hardcover: 622 pages

1. Publisher: Cambridge University Press; 2 edition (November 25, 1994) # Language: English # ISBN-10: 0521355931 # ISBN-13: 978-0521355933
   

Is this a reliable source? LoveMonkey (talk) 16:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

That book has nothing to do with the web site that you quoted from and linked to. Please check that the source you link to is the actual source you mean. We are not clairvoyant. Ttiotsw (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how stateuniversity.com gets away with calling something Cambridge Encyclopedia, but it has nothing to do with Cambridge University or CUP, and it definitely can't be used, see Misplaced Pages:Mirrors_and_forks/Stu. It isn't globally blacklisted anymore though. Dougweller (talk) 19:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

???? So if the article I quoted and linked to is in the Cambridge book I posted and that article is then also mirrored on the State University Website you are saying I have to use the book to source the article rather then the website. Even if I have the book on my book shelf and confirm that it contains the article mirrored on the website? As the wiki article here on the Russian Orthodox Church seems to have "lifted" allot of it content from the book I posted here which is then only mirrored or reposted or copied to the website in question.LoveMonkey (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Also what is blacklisted? Where can I check that to confirm my sources here on Wiki?LoveMonkey (talk) 13:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

In answer to your question about the book, yes, you have to reference the book directly, not stateuniversity.com. Among other things, the book is stable, the website is not. Dougweller (talk) 06:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Last.fm

Is Last.fm considered a reliable source? I always felt it wasn't, it depends on user-submitted content. For example, the band genres are based on users "tagging" the band with their own opinions on what the band is. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 05:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It might depend on what the source was being used for (eg. info about last.fm itself might be OK), but in general would say not. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Last.fm is just allmusic reviews paired with user-submitted content. There's nothing reliable on it for biographies on musicians/bands. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 19:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Gale Group or Gale Research or Gale (publisher)

Previously:

• Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_27#Gale_Group_Source.3B_Reliable_or_not.3F
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_51#Google_Books.2FGale_Research

I acknowledge that Gale Group has previously been thought of as reliable, and they certainly have the trappings of reliability. However, I am very concerned that they are not actually reliable: editors have used Gale Group works to insert two (and arguably three) factually questionable items into the Bill Moyers article relating to his 1967-70 tenure at Newsday.

The editor claims (I cannot verify, as my library does not hold, and the source is gated) that the Gale bio says:

Moyers was hired by Newsday, a Long Island-based publication, as its publisher in 1970. Before Moyers, the paper had a conservative bent and was somewhat unsuccessful

-- "Bill Moyers." Contemporary Heroes and Heroines, Book IV. Gale Group, 2000. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2010

But this contradicts contemporaneous sources.

• conservative

The newspaper endorsed Lyndon Johnson in 1964, John Kennedy in 1960, and Adlai Stevenson in 1956, all before Moyers got there. I don't see how it can possibly be considered "conservative" in any meaningful sense. (I acknowledge that newspaper owner Harry Guggenheim was conservative, but he gave the paper independence--demonstrated very much by the fact that Moyers had free rein while Guggenheim owned the paper.)

• somewhat unsuccessful

This claim contradicts contemporaneous views of the success of Newsday. Contemporaneous and other encyclopedic sources say that Newsday was successful, or even "one of the most successful new newspapers of the postwar era". Also saying Newsday was succesful: New York Times, Time Magazine ("highly successful" "the most profitable big daily paper started in the U.S. in the last 20 years"), Time Magazine again ("highly successful").

Separately, another editor points out that Gale Group used the anachronism "progressive" to describe Moyers's role on the paper.

All in all, when a reference work makes so many basic errors, I find it hard to treat as "reliable." What say others at RSN? THF (talk) 11:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

As for political differences, they seem to be a big deal, and backed by most sources. Here's Texas Monthly saying that Moyers moved the paper noticeably to the political left, enough so that Guggenheim viewed him as a traitor, and sold the paper because of it. Here is an entire article about their political differences, contemporary: "The Captain and the Kid", New York Magazine, 1970 So I'd support Gale Group on that, unless you find some specific sources saying Newsday was considered liberal. The successful point is different, your first link isn't a great source, being a hagiography of Patterson, and it's not clear who wrote it, but your Time Magazine article statements are quite strong; I'd bring those two to the other editors, and see if they could re-read what their source says. If they don't change their minds, I'd at least cite them as a strong counterpoint to the Gale group statement that Newsday was not successful before Moyers. --GRuban (talk) 14:53, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Gale is a reliable reference publisher. that does not mean a perfect one: all reference sources have inaccuracies and outright errors. They are mostly prepared by summarizing other sources; some of Gale's publications do that quite explicitly, and are used for that very purpose. "liberal" and "conservative" are not words capable of exact definition, and neither is the political bias of most newspapers and other news sources. DGG ( talk ) 16:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Gay Erotic Video Index (relist)

I'm relisting this because previous post had been commented on by users involved with WP:PORN and I was hoping to get a fresh perspective. If you're involved in the porn project and wish to comment please use previous post.

• I would like an opinion on the Gay Erotic Video Index. It seems to have editor control, but it lacks an "About Us" page.

• Warning: contains pornographic images.

I'm embarrassed I hadn't seen that and I've been looking for sourcing and leads. The general rule is that exceptional claims require more exceptional sourcing and the intro is upfront that it's just an index but pulled from primary and secondary sources to compile information. This is exactly the kind of index a museum or archive specializing in sex or sexuality looks to guide their work. So there is some editorial control and they look to reliable sources to make changes which is a good sign. As long as you are clear in the cite and clarify any exceptional claims with "Gay Erotic Video Index lists ___ as ____ " it keep the line clear that the fact asserted rests on that source rather than Misplaced Pages making the statement. Similarly if we state "Gay Porn Blog notes ___ as one of the top ten male porn actors over the last decade" we clarify what source is asserting something so the reader can decide what weight to afford it. -- Banjeboi 15:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The site's intro notes the lack of accuracy "This INDEX was compiled from many sources, the videos themselves, the internet and printed matter. If all the videos had been viewed by this author, he would have no skin, time or money left, so the veracity of each detail is only as good as the resources. The porn industry is known for supplying erections, not accurate data and with this much data, even this author has trouble keeping things 100% accurate. If you have a proven source and would like to correct or add to the INDEX please let the creator of this web site know via the contact page." Although it may be useful for finding information that leads to reliable sources, this should not be considered a reliable source in itself. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Note Both users above are involved in a debate concerning the notability of gay adult movie stars. Still looking for neutral opinions. -Stillwaterising (talk) 01:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Disagree, the site notes it's a repository of primary sources. Likely one of the few exist and only the second online I've ever seen. If someone independently catalogs 100 movies and it's actors and asks for sourcing to dispute alleged inaccuracies that does suggest they have a degree of fact-checking. How we use the source is a different matter but the comprehensive index showing actor X is listed doing Y number of films would seem helpful to our readers. As always care should be taken but I don't expect someone's personal website in a niche porn industry to have the same standards as every other porn website which tend to be for profit where as this mostly does not. They also seem independent but there may be formatting and US-centric bias which should be considered. -- Banjeboi 03:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment The results of this RSN have been split 50/50. If I could cast a tie-breaking vote I would have to say that Benjiboi offered the most useful opinions and it would seem that using it as an attributed source to be an acceptable compromise, providing both useful information and verifiability. Note: Wtule.net is down right now, a cache of main page can be found here. - Stillwaterising (talk) 00:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

KavkazCenter

Is this a reliable source? In my eyes of-course not if you look at the header of this website you will see some of the most cruel terrorist of the world who committed a lot of terroristic acts around the world. http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/ But a lot of wikipedia articles rely on this source.
A short quote of an article:
"At least 3 US invaders were killed and another 3 injured during gun battles in which the enemy coalition forces were forced to retreat, said the report, adding a bomb tore apart a US invaders tank while trying to flee from the certain areas, killing the US invaders who were on board."
And Headlines such: "Clarification of the invaders propaganda in Afghanistan" http://www.kavkaz.org.uk/eng/content/2010/01/31/11329.shtml

well, from an Afghani POV, the US forces are "invaders"... and to the Taliban they are definitely the "enemy". Just as a US source might call the taliban the "enemy". The question is... rhetoric asside, does the source have a reputation for accuracy on the underlying facts? If not, then it should probably be limited to statements as to what the Taliban POV is. Blueboar (talk) 20:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

We have a page about this site, Kavkaz Center. It published numerous statements by Chechen rebels during Chechen wars and still publishes interview with people like Doku Umarov. It is reliable in the sense that interviews with Doku Umarov (or earlier with people like Aslan Maskhadov or Basayev) are indeed their interviews. It can be used as a WP:RS in this regard. During wars, they also reported losses on the Chechen side, and such reports can be regarded as official reports of losses by the Chechen side (which does not mean that their numbers are the "truth", just as numbers by any other combatants). However, any claims by the Kavkaz Center about their "sworn enemies" like Russians are hardy reliable and should be used with care.Biophys (talk) 20:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Apart from Islamist press releases and as a gauge of ISlamist thinking, no YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no indication of significant editorial oversight or a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Regarding the content, here's a story I picked off their front page just now:

2 apostate policemen eliminated in Caucasus Emirate's Dagestan Province
Publication time: 20 February 2010, 12:54

Puppet officials say two apostate police officers were fatally shot in attacks in Dagestan Province, Caucasus Emirate.

Regional "Interior Ministry" gang's spokesman Mark Tolchinsky said Saturday that "a group of unidentified assailants fatally wounded the two officers at a roadside police station in the Gergebil district of Dagestan province late Friday".

Kavkaz Center

I think that pretty much sums it up. Jayjg 20:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

But the people have indeed been killed, and it does not matter if one calls them "puppets", "munafiqs" or how.Biophys (talk) 04:04, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Well and an other article of this page

Mujahideen released a summary of military operations against Anglo-American invaders and Karzai puppets in Helmand for Saturday, February 13. According to these data, more than 50 US invaders have been killed or injured and 16 US have been tanks destroyed on Saturday in separate incidents in Marjah, Garmsir, Nad Ali and Now Zad districts of the Helmand province. Kavkaz Center

Sure ... --Saiga 14:46, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Kavkazcenter is a mouthpiece for extremists in the North Caucasus. As far as facts and figures go, there is no editorial oversight or fact checking whatsoever, and for good reason since their intention is not to report an accurate and unbiased depiction of events, but to promote a cause. LokiiT (talk) 02:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

They certainly have an editorial oversight, but it matters who was the editor. The site was popular and much better in 1999-2002, but it is in the state of decline right now. To summarize, this is site of Chechen rebels, and it can be used as RS only about Chechen rebels.Biophys (talk) 04:04, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

John Birch Society

Are the following reliable sources for the statement in the John Birch Society (JBS) article that it "has been described as far right":

Danielson, Chris (Feb 2009). ""Lily White and Hard Right": The Mississippi Republican Party and Black Voting, 1965-1980". The Journal of Southern History (Athens) 75 (1): 83.

Lee, Martha F (Fall 2005). "NESTA WEBSTER: The Voice of Conspiracy". Journal of Women's History (Baltimore) 17 (3): 81.

My objections to these sources are that 1) they are being used as primary sources for the conclusion that the JBS has been described as far right and 2) the articles are not about the JBS or the far right and therefore not relevant to the topic. It is not as if there is a lack of relevant sources for this article.

The Four Deuces (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This is being discussed at great length in talk:John Birch Society. The Four Deuces omitted the third source being used:

• Oshinsky, David (January 27, 2008). "In the Heart of the Heart of Conspiracy". New York Times Book Review: p. 23.

And those are just three of 44 sources that call the group "far right". See ]]. We're already bending considerably by not simply saying that the JBS is far right and by simply saying that it has been described that way instead.   Will Beback  talk  23:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that an editor is using a laundry list of adjectives for the JBS, each of which is "sourced" but which concatenated would be the equivalent of having a sentence "Hitler is claimed to have been 'insane,' a 'nut case' an 'extremist', a 'killer'" and so on ... Once you establish that critics frequently call it "far right" that is sufficient. Adding more stuff does not improve the article, and actually harms any image of articles as being written for reference. The tendency for citation overkill (Ossa on Pelion) is quite regrettable indeed. Collect (talk) 23:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

With 44 sources perhaps we should alter the article. With that much unanimity between sources from all over the political spectrum we can flatly declare the JBS to be "far right" rather than just saying it's described that way.   Will Beback  talk  23:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Let us leave all that discussion to the talk page and let other editors reply to the question posted. The Four Deuces (talk) 02:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Given the preponderance of reliable sources describing the John Birch Society as "far right", there is no issue with Misplaced Pages describing it that way too. Jayjg 02:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The issue goes beyond one adjectival phrase - the issue is one of a laundry list of such phrases in the article, concatenated in a single sentence. Collect (talk) 11:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not really a reliable sources issue. Do you have any comments about the sources, either the two listed here or the 44 listed on the talk page?   Will Beback  talk  11:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

There's a strong potential for cherry-picking here. There's tens of thousands of writings about the JBS out there, and whether a few op-ed pieces use a certain label doesn't mean a whole lot. Far-right isn't the most accurate label we could use; some authors use the term "hard right" to avoid lumping political groups that might be slightly to the right of Reagan with radical groups. Other adjectives that come to mind would be "anticommunist" or "ultraconservative".

The part of the article in question is basically an attempt to put the criticism section in the lead paragraph. For the lead paragraph, we should be using only the most general and top tier of sources, such as a book about conservative politics in the US that comes from an academic press. I could also go for tertiary sources such as dictionaries or political science textbooks.

Some of the other adjectives used in that part of the lead are distortions, such as "radical right" and "extremist". This group certainly doesn't advocate radical change or political extremism, and the sources are cherry-picked from old newspaper articles that don't discuss the JBS in depth. Squidfryerchef (talk) 19:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

There's a potential for cherry-picking, but that hasn't been demonstrated. The newspaper sources are mostly quite recent and include very few op-ed pieces. Most are straight reporting. Also included are articles from scholarly journals, regarded as among the best sources for topics like this. I don't see a signifcant diffrence between "far right" and "ultraconservative", but both terms have been used commonly for th JBS and both are included in the article. If someone has a good source for the difference between them we could include that. OTOH, if there are sources saying they are the same thing then we can probably drop the less -used term. But basically, if we have over three dozen reliable sources saying "X is Y" then our article should probably say "X is Y", unless there are equally good sources that dispute it. Otherwise we're replacing the mainstream views of reliable sources with our own judgements, which we all know is a form of orignal research.   Will Beback  talk  23:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This conversation is getting off topic and fails to discuss whether the two sources, which are from articles in academic journals, are reliable sources for the an article about the John Birch Society (JBS). They are in fact the only academic sources presented that describe the JBS as far right. My objection is that the articles are not about the JBS or the far right and the JBS is not described as far right in academic articles about the JBS or about the far right. The Four Deuces (talk) 23:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Journal of Genetic Genealogy

JOGG seems to be a zine for genealogy hobbyists, albeit with upmarket "academic" aspirations. As has been pointed out (JOGG was mentioned once before on this board, but not discussed), JOGG is an outlet for non-geneticists, and even non-scientists, to publish research that may not be acceptable to established scientific journals. (quote: "The main emphasis of this journal will be to present a forum for articles that may not be appropriate for other established genetics journals since they may be based on datasets in which a statistically random sample cannot be guaranteed (i.e. surname studies).") Further, only one person in their entire staff (Editor, Associate Editors and Editorial Board) has credentials in genetics. So, even though there is a "peer-review" system, JOGG is clearly a journal for hobbyists.

The quesion therefore is to what extent, and for what kind of material, could JOGG be considered a reliable source in subjects pertaining to genetics? What is acceptable to cite, or to quote, or to incorporate?

In particular, is the content of a research paper -- a primary source -- suitable for inclusion in a WP article when it is clearly original, i.e. not treated in any of the usual reliable academic sources, such as articles in high-impact journals by established experts? This goes beyond cases of WP:REDFLAG to apparently "reasonable" ideas which may not have been covered yet in the regular outlets, i.e. are in the nature of WP:OR with respect to the established literature. rudra (talk) 22:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It is in no way a reliable source. The current editor is "a student at the Syracuse University College of Law where he is studying intellectual property law", with no background in genetics. The past editor was "a retired physicist" with the F.D.A.

The editorial board consists of

• "a retired engineering manager who earned his MBA in mid-career",
• "an attorney in private practice specializing in family law",
• "a Professor of Chemistry at the University of Illinois"
• a "Coordinator of Reference Services at the University of Houston M.D. Anderson Library" with a degree in law, and
• and someone who "received her undergraduate degree in biology in 1964 and her M.D. from Stanford University in 1970".

The associate editors are

• an economist with the World Health Organization with "a Ph.D and M.A. in economics from Clark University, MA, and a License-Doctorandus degree in economics from the Catholic University in Leuven (KUL, Belgium)."
• an "Associate Professor of Mathematics and Computer Science at Memorial University of Newfoundland", and
• a retired "research geneticist", the only person with a genetics education or profession.

It is a hobby journal, for non-geneticists who like to play geneticist on the internet. Jayjg 02:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

So, citing (an article in) JOGG cannot save material from being WP:OR, because the requirements of proper attribution are not being met. That's basically what I wanted to confirm. Thanks. rudra (talk) 17:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I depends on the JOGG article. Some are really quite poor, while a few have been noted by geneticists. In all likelihood the current complaint somehow involves the recent pair of articles by Klyosov, which though of some value are overreaching and unreliable. It's fine to cite most JOGG articles for their samples and basic results, and ignore their conclusions. We do the same thing with many properly 'academic' conclusions/speculations in multi-authored peer-reviewed studies. Professional geneticists themselves tend to make uninformed conclusions on language spread, archaeological cultures, and peoples. DinDraithou (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

That's right, and people put those uninformed conclusions in our articles and then argue that the journal article is a reliable source - which is true only to the extent the author is working within their area of expertise. I was waiting for someone to say that it depends on the article, that's what I've been told when I asked. User:Dougweller (talk)

Just to make sure it is not ignored, I have asked Doug below for examples of the JOGG being involved in such cases.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

It isn't just bad, it's worse. They do it for the attention (and possibly for the funding that attention might garner). This is an open secret. The effects have been singularly disastrous for the noxious mess posing as research on what R-M17 might have to do with Indo-European languages and/or "peoples". It has seriously compromised the integrity of academic research in India (where the barely concealed agenda now of all ostensible "research" is actually the seriously political business of "proving" that all Indians have been in India since time out of mind.) In fact, this entire "deep ancestry" field is a crock, a cottage industry founded on and sustained by geneticists pronouncing on subjects outside their competence (linguistics, archaeology, anthropology, sociology, ancient history, whatever.) None of this has been critiqued, because no secondary, evaluative literature exists. It's all primary source, and it's all blather. All the more reason to apply WP policies strictly and disallow marginal sources. rudra (talk) 20:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

JOGG really can't be cited for anything, not even "their samples and basic results". I suppose, if pushed, one could treat articles on it as self-published sources; that is to say, if a real geneticist published an article there, one could treat it as if he or she had published it on his or her blog. Jayjg 01:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that's an extreme position. Personally I trust what they publish at JOGG more than I trust anyone associated with Oxford, e.g. Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, also Spencer Wells. Their sort are the real problem. DinDraithou (talk) 01:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

In a scientific context, a reliable source would have to show its contributors are established experts in that area, with appropriate academic publications and credentials, and/or citations by other scientific publications. They could also be journalists reviewing published scientific work. But in general, a source which consists of amateurs could not be used to present scientific information. Crum375 (talk) 02:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

While you may personally trust JOGG, that doesn't make it qualify in any way as a reliable source. That's not "extreme", it's just the way the WP:V policy works. Jayjg 03:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the WP:SPS exception, but it needs to be used sensibly. Klyosov has already been mentioned; that's a good case. He is a biochemist/molecular biologist, so depending on his specializations he could know plenty about genetics, but still he is not an established geneticist (i.e., it is not what he is known and noted for in the academic literature). Therefore, in JOGG he is jut another hobbyist, and to cite or use his material (on time depths of haplotype diversity) is some combination of WP:OR, WP:UNDUE and perhaps WP:REDFLAG. rudra (talk) 04:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not say I trust 'it', just not Oxford at the moment. Of course what you say about policy is right but you also need to need to have read an article or two from the journal to make sure 'they' are actually contradicting whatever it happens to be. I'm not getting that sense regularly. In fact many of the articles they publish are in unexplored areas, and can derive from the results of legitimate haplogroup projects under FTDNA and other companies, of which the authors are sometimes the managers and leaders. This is why we can generally trust their results but are safest ignoring any speculative conclusions, which again can be found anywhere. DinDraithou (talk) 04:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

No, actually, you don't need to read any articles on the site, in order to ensure they are "contradicting" something. It is a hobby website produced by non-geneticists. Therefore we cannot "generally trust their results" regarding genetics; not their samples, results, conclusions, or anything else found on their website. WP:V and WP:RS are very clear about this. Jayjg 22:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The reason you do in fact need to look at and understand the specifics of cases like this is contained in your use of the words "non geneticists" and "genetics" as if these are clearly defined as the subject here. They aren't. The subject was nominally whether JOGG could be used in some specific passage rudra deleted. Are all aspects of all Misplaced Pages articles citing JOGG "genetics" and are the JOGG citations being made about "genetics", and is "genetics" a clearly defined term with a clearly defined way of saying who is an expert? As Rudra knows, most of the controversial aspects of the Misplaced Pages articles involved are controversial because they involve multi-disciplinary overlap with geneticists and other published folk making comments about linguistics, archaeology and yes, even genealogy. No one is claiming to be arguing for breaking Misplaced Pages policy. The details of the case ARE important. WP:RS states that "Proper sourcing always depends on context". Saying you can not use a source with a reputation for accuracy and an editorial process for anything at all seems to have no basis in any Misplaced Pages policy?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

JOGG clearly fails our RS requirements and should be essentially treated as a self-published source. Further, the fact that it publishes papers not "appropriate for other established genetics journals" and in unexplored areas, raises WP:DUE concerns (if the relevant academic community hasn't made note of the research why should wikipedia give them any weight ?), and is another reason not to use it as a source. The only scenario in which I can imagine citing JOGG articles is if other reliable have cited them positively; in such a case the JOGG paper can be cited simply for convenience of the reader, in addition to the reliable source. Abecedare (talk) 04:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that JOGG should be considered for wikipedia purposes a self-published source. It is not a journal of geneticists, and is essentially a hobbyist's rag, no matter how well-meaning. MarmadukePercy (talk) 06:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not sure why I've gotten into this discussion, and am defending what I more often criticize. I've cited a JOGG article only once in Misplaced Pages and was wishing at the time that I had a better source. See Talk:Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA)#Uí Néill if you can stand it when the occasional Wikipedian starts a discussion and rambles while unfortunately drunk. That said I defend my right to cite that paper because all I needed it for is M222 among the Connachta. DinDraithou (talk) 06:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This motion is based on a mixture of misunderstanding and very deliberate ill will by rudra, apparently with some support from other people interested in India-related articles. It is not justified. The JOGG is not an academic journal and does not claim to be, but academic journals are not the only type of reliable source. Marmaduke Percy is wrong to say that it is self-published. There is a board and an editorial process. If you look through the Misplaced Pages rules on these things, that is what is important. Is it respected? Yes. The JOGG has been referred to in more traditional academic journals, and the authors in JOGG correspond with and meet the academics and are respected by them. The role of non-academics in the field of understanding haplogroups is acknowledged in print by the academics, and indeed there is no way of denying that the "hobbyists" are leading the way in many aspects of the work being done. Population genetics as discussed in JOGG requires a few things: data, and understanding of statistics and certain other mathematical concepts. Some of the authors in JOGG such as Nordtvedt and Klyosov have superior mathematical skills than those normally found amongst geneticists. I note that none of the people in this discussion are generally people involved in working on articles in this field. The motion was moved by the latest of a myriad of Balkans versus India nationalist edit warriors with an axe to grind on R1a. A big part of the brand new strategy is to try to call the article my personal article, which it is not, and then to attack me personally, with Rudra creepily pretending that he is familiar with me off-wiki, which he is not, and referring to me as "just a genealogist" etc in a pseudo knowing way. (Who on earth is just a genealogist and why on earth would this need to be used as an argument?) See this. Attacking JOGG, where I have published, is clearly just one part of this. Rudra also uses his anonymity to carefully pretend he is qualified in this field which his edits and remarks on R1a show he is not. This whole discussion makes no sense if it is being led and managed by a group of edit warriors. I would not have heard about it if Doug Weller had not told me and I presume all other active editors in this area are also not aware of it. Any agreement reached here semi-secretly can and will be ignored. Is the JOGG important for Misplaced Pages? Yes. For anyone who cares about the quality of Misplaced Pages I think it is important to understand that one of the biggest challenges in getting good genetics haplogroup articles is the lack of any academic secondary literature. If we were to restrict all citations to articles already mentioned in secondary literature we would have to get rid of this whole field from Misplaced Pages because it would mean making articles based on information 10 years out of date. All people who know something of the field understand this. The JOGG does at least partly fill this role. It is also in many ways more neutral than the papers by the professionals with all their old articles to defend, BECAUSE it is written by educated and experienced non professionals. OTOH Rudra's accusations above concerning the "open secret" should be explained by him please. He is throwing nasty accusations all over the place without ever justifying them. What on earth is he talking about?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

(Apropos "See this": the thread is now archived here. Full text search for "genealogist" recommended.) rudra (talk) 02:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, it's a hobby website, written by non-experts in the field, whose "main emphasis... will be to present a forum for articles that may not be appropriate for other established genetics journals". A website on astrophysics could also have a very rigorous editorial process, but if those reviewing the submissions happened to be chiropractors and accountants, then it would also not qualify as a reliable source. What you describe as "the lack of any academic secondary literature" on the topics in question is what Misplaced Pages would view as a red flag. And while you may view non-professionals as "more neutral than... professionals with all their old articles to defend", Misplaced Pages generally views them as fringe. Jayjg 20:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayg, with all due respect, you are answering based on theory, not knowledge of the journal or the field nor the editing disputes which are behind this proposal. Even normal newspapers can be cited in some scientific articles, for certain types of information and they often are. For this reason alone, making broad theoretical generalizations is useless. And of course this is exactly why people post their complaints about sources here sometimes BEFORE trying to discuss it on article talkpages - they hope to create enough confusion to make it look like there is an official command to favor their edits. But the normal approach is to first try to work with fellow editors to resolve concerns. Rudra should do that instead of wikilawyering.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Lancaster is correct that some of us participating in this discussion don't contribute to literature in the field. He is also correct, in my judgment, that some of the edit warring has descended into personal attacks, to which I have objected on the appropriate talk pages. But just because some editors don't contribute to journals in the field doesn't preclude us from taking part in this conversation. I have no credentials as a geneticist, but I do have some idea of assessing reliable sources. In the case of Klyosov, for instance, some of the more pseudo-nationalist claims in his work bother me. As do some of the same sorts of biases in other work that appears in JOGG. I am sure that there are good reasons both for and against considering JOGG a reliable source, and I am glad that the discussion has been opened here. And once again, I would ask editors to refrain from making personal attacks on other editors, which are unhelpful in trying to reach a concensus. MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Which "personal attacks on other editors" are you referring to? Also, consensus has already been reached on this source. Jayjg 22:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I meant reaching a consensus in the various genetics-related pieces, not this discussion. As far as personal attacks, I was referring to some of the edit warring in the R1a1 piece. MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Umm. Wouldn't the fact that nearly everything Rudra has written on any talk page about this subject is obsessively written about me personally, including insinuations that the JOGG is written by people who are part of a plot or out to make money, not raise any warning signals about this being a slightly suspect proposal? I'd say if people write like that they should be ignored unless they make their insinuated accusations very clear. As far as I can see this whole proposal is only part of an attempt to do a character assassination based on the incredibly stupid argument that someone who does genealogy has no credibility. Rudra knows everything he knows about R1a due to Misplaced Pages, and what he has learnt very recently due to his interest in Indian related matters.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(Clarification: This is the third time I'm linking to something that explains what for the second time I'm calling an "open secret". Up-thread here, the context was DinDraithou's remark that "Professional geneticists themselves tend to make uninformed conclusions on language spread, archaeological cultures, and peoples." on which I commented that "It isn't just bad, it's worse. They do it for the attention (and possibly for the funding that attention might garner)." The link, which explains this, is to a post on the IER mailing list. Another link would be to this search in that list, which finds more posts on that theme - viz. some geneticists are playing very fast and loose with ideas and issues of which they may know little beyond the sound-bite value.) rudra (talk) 04:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

What is the relevance of these internet discussions to this discussion about JOGG please? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

(Some amount of topic drift and tangential commentary is normal in threaded discussion. It only gets out of hand when lazy readers fail to heed context or to follow any links provided, and instead launch immediately into dramatic escalation with words like "insinuate" and nasty accusations in bold, and demand explanations. But, let no one answer, lest relevance be the next complaint!) rudra (talk) 15:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

So you posted something other than insinuations and vague accusations? Anyway, as they dominate the whole discussion they already are relevant, because you made it so from your opening lines about people who desire to be "upmarket" and academics. Or is that something relevant to Misplaced Pages policies? It seems to me that you choose the words of opening lines in a formal complaint with care. And if you continually repeat and even defend this style as your main "argument" then saying it is an accidental aside seems very unconvincing?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

JOGG is only the tip of an iceberg. There is a serious degree of WP:PRIMARY policy non-compliance in the "haplogroup" articles such as the one on R1a. Some idea of the impedance mismatch at work can be had from trying to reconcile the ease with which consensus was achieved on this board about JOGG with the fact that using a source like JOGG is routine in these articles, nary a second thought, i.e. that clearly a very different consensus is operant among the active editors of those articles. While this is a subject better suited to the WP:NORN board, Andrew Lancaster's diatribe can be put in context by simply comparing the article as I found it a few days ago and the result of my partial cleanup. That enormous bibliography of WP:PRIMARY material is a smoking gun I've left alone. rudra (talk) 02:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

While I happen to agree with you about JOGG, I disagree with you about editor Andrew Lancaster. He is a hardworking wikipedia editor, and I believe his edits are made in good faith. Both he and you are, in my opinion, doing your best to make the R1a article an exemplary piece. Ben Bradlee of The Washington Post used to routinely send out two reporters to cover a story – in the belief that two competitors would come up with a better article. That's how I view the two of you. If you could stop the personal attacks and work with each other, you'd go far to making this a better piece. You may disagree on sourcing. That can be worked out. But you're both smart and making valuable contributions. I hope you can see that at some point. MarmadukePercy (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you have it wrong. I'm a generalist, I have no specific abiding interest in haplogroups, and it isn't a specific concern of mine that the R1a article in particular become exemplary. I simply ran across some problems and tried to fix them. (Anyone who thinks I'm actually a troll can undo this diff and revert to the status quo ante, though merging this diff in the process would be a courtesy.) The problem in "working out" things, like sourcing, with Andrew Lancaster is that the choices necessarily are either to accept the deeply irrational or to escalate. What could be rationally worked out with someone who insists that 21-2/3 West Bengal Brahmins testing positive for R1a1a is a "formatting error" that needs to be treated with a "neutral point of view"? What could be rationally worked out with someone who insists that a journal with an impact factor ranked 74th out of 138 in its field is "major"? This sort of thing just goes on and on. Working on the R1a article has uncovered the deeper problem of WP:PRIMARY policy noncompliance. Maybe I should be escalating this to the WP:NORN board (as the R1a article isn't the only case), or maybe I should be letting this all go and leaving the Andrew Lancasters alone to play in their sandlots of choice. I don't know. rudra (talk) 05:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Uncovered? Again this obsessive need to talk in terms of plots and me personally! I am kind of flattered. Look, you have come to this whole subject from debates to do with Indian nationalism and frankly it is tainting your judgment. Your aggression is uncalled for and your efforts to avoid things that might impact Indian related discussions are twisting the R1a article so that no longer reflects what people who know this field would consider balanced. The problem of relying on primary sources in this field is just reality and something you have read me pointing out over and over as part of the problem which we Wikipedians should be working on constructively together. Your new insinuation that it is impossible to talk to me is not borne out by any facts. You entered the R1a talk page with personal attacks and personal attacks only, after clearly having spent some time researching me personally in order to do this. Only on Dbachmann's talkpage (an admin you respect) have you bothered to give meaningful discussion. I challenge Rudra to try WP:AGF discussion with fellow editors and consensus seeking and see if it works. Quite honestly, I would welcome it, and my discussions with good faith editors tend to be fast. I have long ago proposed removing the exact figures from Sharma but you never replied in good faith. I have also not intervened yet in your editing, in order to give you a chance to make your proposals in terms of real edits. (They are better than I expected, but I do evnetually to propose some changes.) Concerning the R1a data article you admitted to Dbachmann that removing all Sharma reference raises fine points of Misplaced Pages policy. BTW, thank you for calling yourself a generalist. How about calling me one too and quitting with the "just a genealogist" smokescreen?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(Implosions are painful to watch.) rudra (talk) 04:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

As Andrew says, any consensus reached here can and will be ignored by editors familiar with the material. I plan to. And I have respect for everyone here, but I think this discussion will prove of no consequence. Clearly it is not supposed to be about JOGG, which has not been the source of the problems. I do not think it is a proper soft target as it is better defended than may appear at first glance. DinDraithou (talk) 06:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

'Better defended,' in what sense? MarmadukePercy (talk) 06:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

DinDraithou, ignoring the consensus here is disruptive, with all that implies. Jayjg 04:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Because this discussion is effectively an attempt to avoid using the R1a article's talkpage (because Rudra is scared of being slowed down by disagreements) people interested in this case should consider for example this older discussion on that article's talkpage, in which a larger cross section of active wikipedians who work in this area made comment. This was not about JOGG as such but about perhaps the most controversial JOGG source being used in the current article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I invite people participating in this discussion to try a Google "Scholar" search for better known JOGG articles. I just tried an obvious example using keywords "Athey", "Haplogroup", "prediction". To see the JOGG itself discussed in an academic peer reviewed article, indeed a rare case of a secondary style article, see King; Jobling (2009), "What's in a name? Y chromosomes, surnames and the genetic genealogy revolution", Trends in Genetics, 25 (8): 351–360, doi:10.1016/j.tig.2009.06.003 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help). Also here. The article specifically states that the JOGG and genetic hobbyists are now cite-able amongst academics and are knowledgeable and respected. Comments please.

By the way, I understand that amateur astronomers are often making cite-able discoveries too, although I am not an expert in this. If the only argument left is some sort of "qualifications" argument, I am sure this will be ignored. Misplaced Pages is not a technocratic elite or club with membership rules.

One last point in order not to allow the screwy context of this whole discussion to create infinite misunderstandings: I personally use JOGG as a reference very sparingly, when I know that avoiding it would mean making Misplaced Pages very out-of-date or very imbalanced compared to what is understood by people who know the field as a whole (which does include JOGG, and authors like Anatole Klyosov, whose letter regarding a paper by a group of well known academics was published and replied to in a major journal). I believe other responsible editors in this area do the same and we all see as a something to do carefully. Rudra has a right to question the "fine points" of such judgements, but such discussions should be on article talkpages. The current proposal is an attempt to avoid normal consensus building discussions, nothing more.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(The correct form of the suggested search in Google Scholar is not this. It is this, or perhaps this. Also of interest may be this and this.) rudra (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

(JOGG is mentioned twice in the King-Jobling article, both times on p.8. First, in the text:

Genetic genealogy enthusiasts often display an impressive level of knowledge about aspects of molecular evolution, population genetics and statistics; some of this is evinced in the quarterly online Journal of Genetic Genealogy (www.jogg.info). Although it lacks the standard scientific peer-review system of traditional journals, it is nonetheless attracting academic geneticists among its authors and is an interesting model for public involvement in scientific publication. Other resources for genetic genealogy are listed in Box 3. Thanks to the advances in DNA technology and the power of the internet, genetics is now joining astronomy as a science in which amateurs can make useful discoveries."

and then in Box 3:

The Journal of Genetic Genealogy (www.jogg.info; also see main text) publishes articles on individual surname studies, new methods of analysis, insights into mutation rates, geographic patterns in genetic data and information that helps to characterize haplogroups.

Box 3 also has this:

Misplaced Pages’s pages on Y haplogroups (en.wikipedia.org/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups) provide up-to-date information on specific Y lineages

which may explain a "need" for an agenda.) rudra (talk) 05:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Rudra, is there meant to be an accusation amongst the cherry-picking in that last bit? Why do your postings always seem to be filled vague unclear accusations? Be brave. Make your accusations clear and loud please. State your claim, make your case or else do not make irrelevant side remarks. When asking User:Dbachmann to block me for disagreeing with you for example, you boldly pointed out that I have a genealogy webpage as the main part of your case. What other great arguments have you got? The facts of the matter are obviously that JOGG (and ISOGG also) has a reputation for fact checking, an editorial review process, and is widely cited in the academic peer-reviewed press on a number of subjects. The term "hobbyist" is being used in an undefined way for rhetorical effect in this discussion, as if it has a clearly defined Misplaced Pages policy implication, which it does not.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages policy is meant to be guiding us then the words framing discussion so far such as "hobbyist" have no relevant meaning, but this quote which was not included by Rudra does seem important:-

Thanks to the advances in DNA technology and the power of the internet, genetics is now joining astronomy as a science in which amateurs can make useful discoveries.

So we have academics citing JOGG articles often, calling the work "hobbyists" do well-informed and useful, referring to them making discoveries which they keep track of and cite, using their "hobbyist" databases and citing them, citing their society website (www.isogg.org) as their best reference point for SNP phylogeny... We also see that the JOGG is respected for fact checking and has an editorial process. Aren't these the kinds of things Misplaced Pages policy asks us to check for? All boxes are ticked and simply ignoring such Misplaced Pages relevant facts and being sucked in by policy-irrelevant, vague insinuations such as "genealogy hobbyists, albeit with upmarket "academic" aspirations" (opening line of this whole proposal) would make a mockery of this board.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Something I forgot to mention. Currently nearly all academic articles and also most Wikipedians including Rudra use the ISOGG website as their references for up to date Y haplogroup phylogenies. ISOGG is the International Society for Genetic Genealogy - "hobbyists" in the mainstream again.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the extreme abstract generalizing tendency in the new sub-section below, I see another point which might need covering. All RS discussions on this board should consider not only whether a source is reliable in a simple sense, but what in particular it is reliable or unreliable for. Nearly any source can be reliable for something. All too often people post here ignoring this. There are several problems in this case:-

1. Rudra recently spent a lot of time cutting out material he did not like from R1a. Specifically, he changed the opening lines quite a lot. This shows that he agrees with what it says concerning R1a being a subject in both "human population genetics and genetic genealogy", two different inter-related fields. The Journal of Genetic Genealogy is surely a good source for the latter, and just to remind, I have given academic geneticist sources which acknowledge its importance.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

2. Rudra seemed to state his case in a correct way in the sense of specifically asking what the JOGG might be good for or not good for, not just asking for blanket dismissal. However, with respect to this his description of what he thinks the JOGG might not be good for citing (something which the deleted material apparently did contain) is extremely vague.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

So much for consensus

To demonstrate that the regular editors of the haplogroup articles mean what they say - that consensus on this board regarding JOGG counts for squat: an edit reintroducing deleted material based on not one but two JOGG articles (Klyosov has already been mentioned; Gwozdz is a retired professor of engineering.) rudra (talk) 00:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This board is where decisions are made regarding which sources are reliable, and involved editors cannot ignore the consensus here. If disruptive behavior continues, the next step is to take the offending parties to AN/I. Jayjg 04:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Any admin here who ignores Andrew's last few posts in this discussion and decides to harass him or me or any other editors for citing a JOGG paper appropriately will find himself or herself in trouble. But before that, a problem is that you're the only one really saying there is a consensus here, Jayjg, and you're only one admin. There may be others who agree with you but you hardly have a consensus. Just posting yourself again and again does not produce one. DinDraithou (talk) 05:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

In trouble? How do you plan to carry out this threat? Polices such as this cannot be overruled by a consensus on a talk page, that should be obvious. Dougweller (talk) 06:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

What policy? Did you read what Andrew found and posted? We won but you missed it.

Is a response to a threat a threat? Jayjg has gone power tripping because Andrew and I don't recognize his 'consensus', which he has clearly has some pride in. If he tries to follow through he'll end up looking small, and if he continues without background, worse than small: aberrant and bad for WP. You don't just get to beat up specialist contributors. DinDraithou (talk) 07:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Background? The only background he needs is an understanding of our policies and guidelines. No matter how expert someone is, that doesn't make them an authority as to what meets with our policies and guidelines. I'm not sure what you mean by beating up specialist contributors but specialists have no particularly privileges and get blocked and banned when necessary. And saying that a paper or a journal is not a reliable source is clearly not harassment. I'm not speaking as an Admin here, by the way, just as an experienced editor (well, I guess being an Admin has given me experience also). Dougweller (talk) 09:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

We seem to be loosing sight of the basics of this case.

• There was and is no consensus in this discussion. In other words this whole new track of discussion, taking us away from the real subject, is based on something which does not exist.
• The title of this sub-section implies that my new insertion of JOGG sourced material is simply a revert. It is not. I think this counts for something unless JOGG is simply being called unreliable for all possible sourcing? (But then again, as discussed above, there has been no serious attempt here to argue in detail what the JOGG can and can't be reliable for, presumably in the hope that this discussion can be cited as a kind of blanket ban.)
• Quoting policies and guidelines is easy. Applying them is more complicated. When people deny that an obviously complex case is complex this should be a warning signal.
• Consensus is not Rudra's priority and his posting here is cynically hypocritical! Note his behavior on R1a's talk page. Rudra started this new section to claim that edits were being made on the R1a article without taking note of what is agreed here. Putting aside the lack of clear agreement in this discussion, rudra consistently and openly ignores consensus, because he sees it as below him, and did not wait for any discussion in this case either. WP:BRD. This selective puritanism is a recurring theme in his wikilawyering. Why does there need to be a special section heading to discuss it? Looks like a deliberate diversion to me.
• In response to Doug's comment that this discussion can not be accused of being related to harassment, wikilawyering can be part of a bigger pattern of edits and talk pages postings which could qualify as tendentious editing. You'd need to look at the background in order to judge it. You can't pass judgment by looking at one fact in isolation in something like that.
• Because Rudra called this discussion without warning other involved editors and posted deliberately misleading explanations, anyone citing its conclusions in the future will not convince anyone. That's the reality of how Misplaced Pages works, not a threat. There'd need to be a better discussion.
• Most importantly, as Din points out some pretty strong arguments have been posted (just above where a new section was started, I wonder why?) and not replied to. All boxes are ticked (all concerns posted at first are answered) given the postings I made once I had time.

At the very least the case remains open. I tend to agree with Din though that the case is looking closed. In any case I would strongly suggest that discussion, if it is to be meaningful, should continue in the main section above and should not ignore the points made.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you've widened my comments beyond what I was talking about. The Haplogroup articles are a mess though and it is hard to wade through that mess. A big part of the mess is the use of sources. Dougweller (talk) 11:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Doug, JOGG is however not the problem, and R1a is not the best example of what you are referring to (any more). Many haplogroup articles cite discussion forums and personal webpages. If we clean that up, then your impression might be different. What's the biggest thing stopping us? The biggest thing stopping us is that for every article which is brought up to a less bad level, there are dozens of these types of single issue attacks which soak up enormous time and energy, for very little gain. Picking on the JOGG is misplaced. Discussions about JOGG sourcing should be about due weighting for specific areas, and not about trying to get it on some black list. Din's reaction might have been harsh but like me he is reading this discussion as an attempt to "win" a little battle by effectively black listing a source which is being used sparingly and reasonably in most real cases - and discussion should be about real cases and specifics in my opinion.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No, Andrew, it's not enough for you and DinDraithou to agree to get a consensus. Your problem is that nobody (or hardly anybody) else is areeing with you. Hans Adler 11:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hans, I agree. I did not declare a consensus. I said there is none.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hans and Doug do either of you have any clear case where JOGG is to blame for the quality of any haplogroup (or similar) article being poor? What I can say with a high level of confidence is that Rudra himself knows that the need to use primary sources of ANY kind is the more general problem in many scientific areas. JOGG is just one example of many sources in this field, and it is not especially filled with primary research, so it is actually helpful in many cases. The only concrete example which Rudra has argued against in any detail, as part of the same session of activity he is having on R1a, was from an academic peer reviewed journal, not JOGG. Frankly it looks like he is going for a consolation prize. As far as I can see the appropriate behavior in all such cases is concrete and constructive discussion about due weight, and not trying to get around this by trying to get whole sources black listed. It is obvious to everyone who knows this stuff surely, that the big difference between this scientific field and, say, subatomic physics, is only one thing: the number of interested parties who drop by and get passionate. On User:Dbachmann's talk page Rudra has called my approach to this in haplogroup articles "naive inclusionist". That is not entirely wrong, except that it is not naive but very much something considered and tried out. He knows that many people working in this area think my approach has worked on a couple of articles so far, not necessarily to polish articles up to perfection, but to make them a workable and stable base for better editing. (Would Rudra have even touched the R1a article 6 months ago?) That's the real subject behind this discussion here as far as I can see. Ignoring that we are all really thinking about these things is leading to confusion. The JOGG is not the problem.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not JOGG is a reliable source depends on what point / wording you are trying to use it to support. It is not a black and white issue. If its conclusions are contradicted by more reliable sources than of course the more reliable sources are preferred.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Please review the discussion in the main section. A JOGG article prima facie is not WP:RS. If it can't be excepted by WP:SPS, then it is, at best, WP:OR. Your statement thus amounts to: we should allow WP:OR until and unless some WP:RS contradicts it. Is that what you really meant to say? rudra (talk) 20:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It is certainly not a self published source. That is nonsense, and seems to indicate that you've read nothing posted in reply to you above. Is this your new accusation now? Originally the argument was apparently that the editorial board were not specialized in the right academic field for something. Having an editorial board kind of doesn't fit with being self-published does it?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The WP:SPS exception pertains to articles in JOGG by established experts on topics within their field of expertise. Recognized geneticists are not precluded from publishing articles on genetics in JOGG, and if they do, such articles may qualify as WP:RS. That is the meaning of the WP:SPS "exception". rudra (talk) 21:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No exception is required. JOGG meets the requirements of a reliable source. It has a "reputation for checking the facts" and it has "editorial oversight". In the above main body of this discussion I have given citation from outside JOGG which mention JOGG to this effect.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe this is correctly put, and pretty much describes the position being argued against by Rudra.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's be clear here; all the editors who are uninvolved in this dispute, namely User:Dougweller, User:Crum375,User:Abecedare, User:MarmadukePercy, and I, agree that JOGG is not a WP:RS. The reasons why are obvious, as have been outlined above. User:Andrew Lancaster, you are correct: "JOGG is not the problem". JOGG is merely a hobby journal, and obviously not useable as a source on Misplaced Pages. The problem is with editors who insist on ignoring both policy, and that clear and obvious consensus. And User:Andrew Lancaster, if you make any future comments, restrict them solely to discussions of JOGG and exactly how it does or doesn't comply with the WP:V policy and WP:RS guideline. Do not discuss other editors, or even the state of various articles. Jayjg 01:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, no one is arguing the case for "ignoring policy". The application of policy is a subject of disagreement here. I also did not start a sub-section for diversionary discussion about other editors, and indeed this is a bad thing. But I responded to those diversionary accusations in this sub-section created by rudra. I am moreover concerned that he is presenting incorrect information and people are not checking it at all, and I think I may mention such concerns because they are relevant? Anyway: In the main section above I have laid out answers to all concerns and no one has commented or responded. If these explanations are simply ignored then how seriously can this discussion be taken? I also think it is relevant to point out that User:Abecedare is clearly someone who collaborates a lot with rudra and has come along to support him, User:Dougweller has been involved in JOGG discussions with DinDraithou before, and User:MarmadukePercy is also an involved editor whose position is also not as clear as you say (see above). Whether he realized the terms he was quoting back to rudra have specific Misplaced Pages definitions is unclear, and also whether he thinks the JOGG should be used is unclear. One of his major points was about the use of personal attack distorting discussion. You also ignored the posting of User:Jmh649 which was more in agreement with my position. My summary then, would be that there is no clear consensus and not even any real clear discussion. The discussion has been made deliberately confused and rushed in order to try to use this board as a kind of rubber stamp for edits rudra wants. Very few of the people here are really neutral, and those who are really must read beyond the inflammatory opening assault of rudra, who is making false claims pure and simple. Here is the background to Rudra opening a case here. As far as I can see, Rudra is basically a troll in this matter, and ignorant of the material and individuals he is making false accusations about.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Lancaster, your remarks were mostly about other editors. Please re-factor them, removing all references to other editors, and try again. Jayjg 00:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, this SUB-thread is based on accusations by editors about editors, starting with its title, and I was responding to postings by others. I think that was justified given that the accusations obviously ARE having a major impact on how this whole case is being read, and indeed form the main body of the case against this source. Anyway the MAIN thread is above (or I have proposed a cleaner start below if anyone wants to respond there) and contains answers to concerns raised which can be discussed further if there are still doubts. Surely this thread does not need to be doubled and tripled by re-posting the same material over and over. In summary though, the JOGG has a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, and is widely cited as a reliable source within expert literature relevant to the citations under discussion - including peer-reviewed academic literature. Above I had shown this some time ago, with a google scholar search and a reference from a review article. These two things seemed enough to get more realistic discussion, but none has been forthcoming so far, and above I am waiting to answer any questions. Secondly I have stated that the JOGG is not being used to trump superior sources or make controversial citations, and I have asked for discussion about any examples if this is a concern. Again, I wait for any replies on that. Please do browse through the discussions above.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

BTW I see that above you asked Marmaduke Percy why he felt it necessary to refer to personal attacks in this discussion. You should read the talk page reference I have just given, which MP knows to be the background to this whole discussion. It is pure troll, and troll has a clear Misplaced Pages meaning. I checked before using the term.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

In terms of Misplaced Pages policy please?

There is a lot of confusion here because from the opening shots emotive words and cynical insinuations were being made, without any relevant reference to Misplaced Pages policy. (On the article talk page, Rudra himself has used only indecent personal attack to make it absolutely clear that his basic guiding policy concerning these genetics articles he hates is his personal common sense and screw everyone else. I would presume the people here who think they agree with him are not condoning that.) I believe it is actually not really clear what Rudra's argument is in terms of Misplaced Pages policies, and whether anyone who thinks they agree with him really does. So:-

Are we therefore agreed that the following are the basic policies relevant here are as follows?

• Does the source have a reputation for accuracy amongst experts in fields where it is being used as a source?
• Does the source have some sort of editorial fact-checking process in contrast to being self-published?
• Is the source being given undue weight in order to make claims in conflict with the highest regarded and most mainstream views in the areas involved?

Comments please on whether these are the relevant policies and what the answers to the three questions are. I say yes-yes-no. Strangely no one amongst those claiming to have considered the case and agreed with Rudra has addressed any of these three questions (neither, of course, has Rudra) which are based simply on Misplaced Pages policies. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Please review WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Jayjg 00:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Someone here is reminding me of Zahi Hawass (the Magnificent One), that great defender of Egypt against the evil forces of Set. DinDraithou (talk) 02:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Arguing until interlocutors give up appears to be a familiar technique. rudra (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, if you are saying that the discussion is waiting for me to reply to points, then with all due respect I think there is a misunderstanding. The very first discussion started before I knew about it and rushed ahead based entirely on the basis of the claims being made by one Wikipedian, which I have argued to be problematic; BUT since I found the time to post a reasonably detailed response to what I think are all relevant concerns, there has been virtually no further discussion about the subject (the source, the policies). Please see the first section above. As far as I can tell right now, nobody except the original creator of this thread has even read my more substantial replies due to the opening of an off-topic sub-section (by the same person) right underneath those key postings soon after they were made. I remain open to discussion if my initial postings have in any way failed to cover all points relevant to the subject. But I can not mind read. Can I ask you to please read what I posted above in the first section and let me know what you think? If you want me to report a nicer formatted version (rather than the several sequential postings I made above), for example, I can do it if that is what you really want.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Re-factoring of responses to initial posting

User:Jayjg has requested a re-factoring and with big reservations I shall do so. I believe all of the following repeats points already made. I hope I will not receive a WP:TLDNR response! :)

1. The terms of the initial "question". Actually the "question" was posted in a way which defined conclusions already in its terms. But these premises (which, as he explained to DinDraithou, were accepted by Jayjg without further checking of any examples) were quite questionable, and this needs to be discussed if this message board is to fulfill its function properly. There should be two things considered in any RS discussion: the nature of the source, and what it is being cited for. Reference will be made in a few places to a useful journal article:-

• King; Jobling (2009), "What's in a name? Y chromosomes, surnames and the genetic genealogy revolution", Trends in Genetics, 25 (8): 351–360, doi:10.1016/j.tig.2009.06.003 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help). Also here.

1a. The nature of the JOGG. In effect, the key concern raised was the expertise and recognition of the authors who write in the JOGG. It was claimed in the first sentence that JOGG is for "genealogy hobbyists", and specifically for ones with "upmarket "academic" aspirations". It was implied that the journal was deliberately set up to allow people publish things in a field they have no knowledge in. This is incorrect for several reasons:

• The accusation that the authors and editors of the journal aspire to be something other than what they are is not justified by anything cited and appears to be personal speculation by a Wikipedian.
• The accusation that the JOGG is a way to get published in a field where an author is not qualified also appears to be personal speculation by a Wikipedian. In order to make this accusation a passage was cited which simply stated that the JOGG aims to fill a gap not currently being filled, quite a normal aim for any journal. Any fair reading of the facts shows that the JOGG aims to have its own specializations and strengths.
• The knock-on implication that the authors are not knowledgeable or recognized in the subjects they write about, or more importantly for which they are being cited on Misplaced Pages, is also apparently personal speculation by a Wikipedian. Here is the google search I suggested for showing a JOGG article being widely cited, and not only by fellow JOGG authors: .
• (Note the central importance of the term "hobbyist" in all discussion here so far. The term is part of the first sentence and is then repeated by Jayjg as apparently the key part of his understanding of what is supposed to be relevant to the discussion (i.e. hobbyists contrasted to geneticists). The term is correct only if it means "not a tenured academic in genetics". But the key point for Misplaced Pages is concerning whether a person is verifiably a respected and knowledgeable source, and Jayjg clearly seems to think based on the wording of the opening that this is how the word can be understood in this case. It is unfortunate that this term is being used in such a central way instead of clear ones.)
• The journal's obvious association is with genetic genealogy and genetic genealogy really is distinct from genealogy. Nevertheless the word genealogy and genealogist have been used and dwelt upon as if it were an argument in itself in both this forum and in other places on Misplaced Pages, by the proposing party. In reality, one person can be expert in both, or only one of the two, and they can also be expert in other fields. Indeed, of course genealogists are rarely only genealogists. This raises a few issues for the claim being made:-

• In the peer-reviewed journal I brought into discussion, two top population geneticists note that the JOGG is "attracting academic geneticists among its authors".
• The second question is whether being an expert "genetic genealogist" is not on its own something that can potentially make one cite-able for. This has not even been considered, and I have struggled to try to get it considered, simply because of the way the question was framed here in the first place by wrongly stating that this is all about people deliberately finding a way to get published outside an area they know about. It isn't.
• That genetic genealogy is cite-able within population genetics is clear not only in the cases cited above, but also in the use of the ISOGG website as the standard citation for SNP phylogeny updates. (In fact, SNP phylogeny discoveries are now mainly coming from genetic genealogy, and being passed to population genetics, not the other way around. I know of no official source keeping score but I think my judgment is not particularly controversial and I mention as something that might be of interest. This balance has swung this way only within the last year or so.)

1b. What is being cited, what may be cited, what may not. While the initial posting used specific words to describe the suspected aspirations of JOGG contributors and editors, it was not so clear about what was being cited in Misplaced Pages from the JOGG, and this is essential to any meaningful discussion. While stating that he had not checked any examples, Jayjg however clearly understands that what is being cited from JOGG is "genetics" and he refers to the unreliability of the "samples" and "results" he presumes are being cited in Misplaced Pages.

• The subjects where JOGG is being cited in Misplaced Pages are normally described as "population genetics" and "genetic genealogy".
• Both these quite new fields obviously feed from genetics as a source technology, but neither are simply "genetics". We are not talking about lab testing, interpretation of lab results, interpretation of mutations themselves, etc.
• A specific characteristic of both these fields is how multi-disciplinary they are.
• Major population genetics articles for example have always had a strong tradition of included non-geneticists amongst their most important authors, and of being published in books and journals which are not about genetics.
• The JOGG is not being used to cite anything concerning "genetics" as such, but rather in the multi-disciplinary and specific genetic genealogy areas where it is strongest.
• The basic know-how needed in both fields is quite generalist (the ability to draw upon linguistics, archeology, medieval records etc) with the most technical aspect clearly being an understanding of the statistical analysis of dynamic systems, which is precisely what many of the JOGG editors and contributors have. This explains why physicists, chemists and engineers are making such an impact.
• The quality of some academic peer-reviewed population genetics articles have often rightfully been criticized on Misplaced Pages and in other forums, a problem coming from this need for multi-disciplinary thinking. But surprisingly perhaps, the JOGG is actually not the source of much controversy when it comes to controversial claims.

2. Excessive discussion of other subjects. Examination will show that a large part of the discussion both leading up to this proposal, and once it was made, are not about the JOGG at all, but about population genetics articles, which the proposing party has strong feelings about. In response to having this pointed out the proposing party has claimed that "Some amount of topic drift and tangential commentary is normal in threaded discussion". One hopes that it is recognized as tangential, because it dominates all discussion.

3. The Misplaced Pages policies on reliable sourcing are clear. They ask us to check whether a source has an reputation for being knowledgeable, for fact checking, and some sort of editorial process that goes beyond self-publication. All these conditions are met, and although I have asked for any questions on this there seems to be no disagreement about that.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

You've made some good points, Andrew. I suppose here is where I draw the line (and I'm no geneticist). If, for instance, a contributor to JOGG were writing about a particular family, for instance, and the reference supported an assertion in a piece about the family of President John Adams, for instance (just a made-up example), then I would be inclined to say that a journal of genetic genealogy study of the Adams family Y-Dna markers would be relevant and appropriate. In such an instance, the JOGG cite would be a crossover of genealogy and genetics. On the other hand, given what I've seen of some JOGG entries relating to the field of genetics as a whole, I think the quality of the work ranges from very good to dismal. I've been troubled by some of the more pseudo-nationalistic assumptions in some of the pieces. So I do agree with you that in certain instances, like, for instance, the Adams family case I raised, JOGG might be an appropriate resource. But for the general genetics field, I have been less than impressed by the consistency of the journal's entries. Just my two cents, but thanks for your thoughtful post. MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the positive, directly verifiable evidence provided:

• On the King-Jobling article, Trends in Genetics 25(8), 351-360

• Claim (here): "The article specifically states that the JOGG and genetic hobbyists are now cite-able amongst academics and are knowledgeable and respected."

• The article does not specifically state cite-ability. It acknowledges that amateurs can be knowledgeable and contribute discoveries (the "astronomy model"). (The full text is available in a quote-box up-thread.)
• User:Abecedare had already anticipated this: "The only scenario in which I can imagine citing JOGG articles is if other reliable have cited them positively; in such a case the JOGG paper can be cited simply for convenience of the reader, in addition to the reliable source."
• Misplaced Pages cannot be the one to identify the knowledgeable amateurs, and there is no implication, let alone guarantee, that amateurs publishing in JOGG are ipso facto knowledgeable. (Besides, it is not Misplaced Pages's brief to identify the amateurs' discoveries either. They could just as easily be WP:REDFLAG items. This again raises the wider issue of the proper treatment of primary sources.)
• Note also that King-Jobling discount JOGG's peer-review system ("lacks the standard scientific peer-review system of traditional journals"). This is not favorable to a reputation for fact checking.
• The "WP:SPS exception" has also been already noted: that articles in JOGG by established academics in their own field may be acceptable as reliable, but do not thereby make JOGG a reliable source.

• Claim (here): the article is by "two top population geneticists".

• Two? Professor Mark Jobling is well known. Dr Turi King is a Research Associate. (U of Leicester, Dept of Genetics, Faculty listing). Was the puffery necessary? (Or was it a demonstration of familiarity with the field?)

• Comment: The article has good things to say about JOGG, but one swallow does not a summer make.

• On searching Google Scholar with the terms "Athey", "prediction" and "haplogroup".

• Claim (here): "an obvious example" of "better known JOGG articles".
• Claim (here): this is the search to perform for "a JOGG article being widely cited, and not only by fellow JOGG authors".

• The search specification in the link provided is incorrect. It fails to account for Google's relevance ranking algorithms in the presentation of results ("one page of hits does not a conclusion make") and, quite fundamentally, for false positives, stemming from the fact that the default combination of multiple search terms is a logical OR, not a logical AND.
• The correct search is this. And, for the sake of argument, this might actually be more favorable.
• Among the hits for Athey's predictor is this peer-reviewed article. IOW, caveat emptor.

• Comment. How does JOGG itself fare on Google scholar?

• This and this give some indication. Note that quite a few "Cited by" links lead to effective self-citations.

• Summary. The positive evidentiary claims are overblown. JOGG is not unknown, is clearly well-meaning and serious about being academic (or professional) in approach, but falls short of the requirements of WP:RS. rudra (talk) 06:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

It is hard to find anything relevant to Misplaced Pages policy above, and so I will not lengthen the discussion by going through all the evidence being offered which effectively comes down to the term "overblown" which is itself a relative word. The basic claim that JOGG is cited by experts, respected, has a reputation for accuracy, fact checking and editorial oversight, are not being addressed and appear to be accepted "with reservations". In summary the reservations made in reply to my re-factored posting are now the same as made by me, DinDraithou, Dougweller, and Doc James, that whether use of the JOGG is within Misplaced Pages RS policy depends on the context of what it is being used for etc etc. In other words such discussion should be handled as content discussion on article talk pages, (and as I mentioned, JOGG is not being used in any particularly controversial on Misplaced Pages, certainly Rudra's original claim made no special claim about particular examples). No blanket ban appears to be appropriate or is anyone claiming otherwise? I note that User:Rudra's larger concerns (which fill his posts about this concern) concern all speculation in the whole academic field of population genetics and he is increasingly needing to rely upon claiming "redflag" special cases where "common sense" about the truth trumps normal policy when it tells him that a well-referenced claim is exceptional (as he refers to it on other talk pages "RS bullshit"), and needs to be given special treatment. How justified is it to treat a whole field as made up of special cases?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Mere words. No claim has been substantiated satisfactorily. rudra (talk) 07:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I humbly disagree. Your own "mere words" which I read, come down to saying my remarks were in your opinion correct but somehow over blown. I find your points vague, tendentious, wrong, in various ways, but I also do no think this is the venue for arguing about irrelevant fine points of personal opinion, such as just how well known Turi King is and just how many academic articles have cited JOGG. The exact answers are not the point. What you have NOT denied is that JOGG is cited by experts, has a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, and an editorial process widely understood to be neutral. Given that you have not denied that, what is there to discuss on this forum here? The criteria for being RS were what again? I think JOGG can be used in certain contexts. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous testimony in journalist piece

Do anonymous testimonies in a RS journalist piece count as RS? The source in question is this, specifically in this passage:

Neighbors recalled there was something both strange and sad about Liu Chunling, that she sometimes hit her child, that she drove her elderly mother away, that she worked in a nightclub and took money to keep men company.

It is a piece originally by the Washington Post, and is disputed primarily in here. Specifically whether it's acceptable to describe that woman as "night club worker" and "took money to keep men company" without the neighbour caveat. Although I am not here to dispute whether the Washington Post is a reliable source or not, I do strongly dispute whether that also covers anonymous testimonies from unreliable sources. This is nothing more than neighbour hearsay, the tabloid type material that would be instantly rejected if that woman was alive (WP:BLP). The article gave its reader a caveat ("Neighbours recalled") on the unreliability of the source, and it can not be treated as something that Washington Post itself endorses. --antilived 00:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If the information is potentially important to the article, the simple solution is to phrase it that The Washington Post reported that X said Y. Barnabypage (talk) 01:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and the caveat is "if it is potentially important". I would argue it's not. Some of the information in the piece is already used in the article. Admittedly, it's a bit selective, but if we cite the more outlandish claims, the risk is that this type of anonymous testimony may give even greater prominence to a fringe or unsupported position than is already given or warranted. Ohconfucius 06:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the information is important to the article. I fail to understand the eagerness to exclude this small piece of information. It's relevant, yah? Readers can make up their own mind. To say that something like a few dozen words in a several thousand word long article is pushing undue, is pushing it! (imho)--Asdfg12345 13:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Sites providing birth info for Alexandra Daddario

Is ListOwn a reliable source for the birth info of entertainers? Nightscream (talk) 18:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• I can't imagine it being accepted. They are a classified ad site. That is their function. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

What about this site for Alexandra Daddario's birth info? It looks like a fan site, but I wanted to be sure. Nightscream (talk) 01:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Again, I don't think you'll find many people that would consider that a RS. If it were the movie studios site, yes. But that is a fan site. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Try this link: . Niteshift36 (talk) 03:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 08:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

When an editor says a reliable source is wrong

There has been a dispute on Union City, New Jersey regarding a local high-rise building called the Thread. A The New York Times article by Antoinette Martin that I cited as one of the sources says that that building is a former embroidery factory. But User:Djflem has asserted that this is not true, that the building is an original building, and that The New York Times is wrong. An anonymous IP editor whose IP is traced to Amsterdam (I don't know if this was also Djflem editing outside of his account) called the source "unreliable". I don't dispute that otherwise reliable sources can make mistakes, but for an editor to remove such info based solely on their assertion seems like OR, just as including such info on personal knowledge would be. What should we do? Nightscream (talk) 21:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

See if you can find more sources to either support or deny the challenged source you have. Try and discuss the issue on the talk page of the article to get a consensus. Removal of information is not OR. SunCreator (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

There are lots of old maps of the area on the web, maybe you can find one that settles the question. Zero 00:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This would seem to be a question of policy rather than consensus; I wouldn't want people in a consensus discussion to decide based on their persona feelings about the assertion. As for maps, I don't see how this would help. I actually have a number of old maps of the area, but none are going to indicate if a building on a given block was a factory. I've sent emails to the writer of the article and to the building itself to ask them. Hopefully that will do it. Nightscream (talk) 01:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Newspapers are often wrong, including The New York Times. However, we consider newspapers such as The New York Times to be reliable sources, and go by what they say, absent any other reliable sources stating something different. And an editor's personal knowledge carries little weight in such a discussion, and there's no need to e-mail the articles' author etc. Feel free to use the article to support the claim that the building is a former embroidery factory. Jayjg 01:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I have found another New York Times article which describes construction of the building as beginning in 2007. There are also numerous less reliable sources (such as ads for apartments in the building) describing it as new, and nothing else describing it as a former embroidery factory. I think it's fair to conclude that the originally-cited NYT article was in error. See Talk:Union_City,_New_Jersey. Barnabypage (talk) 14:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

It may have been in error. It may have meant that the building was constructed where an embroidery factory once stood. Jayjg 01:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

That's quite plausible, I think. Barnabypage (talk) 12:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking along the same lines. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 08:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Digital Spy

Is Digital Spy considered reliable? I've doubted its reliability for quite awhile, but I would like to get the opinions of other editors. –Chase (talk) 22:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_47#digitalspy.co.uk Do you have a particular aspect in mind? SunCreator (talk) 22:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I seem to have missed that when I searched the archives. It still seems pretty tabloidy and gossip blog-y to me. I don't think consensus was ever gained on the issue, so perhaps now would be a good time to? –Chase (talk) 00:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I think unless you have something specific then like previous comments I'd say it is a WP:RS but bear in mind the point that it tends to report much gossip and celeb type information careful reading of it's articles are required. For example this, if you read it carefully it does not confirm the headline, but rather says it has been 'claimed' and 'is allegedly'. SunCreator (talk) 22:38, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The factual accuracy of some content (e.g. news stories, in-depth features, profiles etc) is implicitly guaranteed by mainstream publishers and sloppy errors will attract heavier libel damages than they would in other contexts, even in the same publication. I doubt that Digital Spy intends to publish news stories this rigorously. Nevertheless, parts of Digital Spy are deliberately presented as officially-sanctioned reviews signed by regular real-life-named contributors, and IMO these should be considered reliable sources for those reviewers' opinions, in the same way that a regular critic's reviews published on a newspaper's website would be reliable. However, any statements about facts (e.g. "245,000 people watched the final broadcast of Spooks: Code 9") wouldn't be reliable and would need to be verified elsewhere. Blog pages written by regular contributors and published by mainstream publishers are probably the same. But if there's any doubt about the contributor's identity (e.g. because the publisher doesn't verify it or can't be trusted to verify it) then all bets are off: the source is useless. - Pointillist (talk) 00:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Common situation (song articles)

This link is widely misinterpreted by editors. It's a page updated periodically(weekly?) of planned future song releases, meaning, firstly, it's not a good reference to link as the contents change and secondly because it's future releases then it is subject to WP:CRYSTAL. Another common mistake of editors is to imply it is a physical release, but it does not say that. SunCreator (talk) 13:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Ian William op-ed

Question about the use of op-ed in articles, specifically in the UN Watch article, and the following excerpt which some users have advocated:

Journalist and former anti-apartheid activist Ian Williams, writing in an opinion piece in The Guardian in 2007, wrote that the main objective of UN Watch "is to attack the United Nations in general, and its human rights council in particular, for alleged bias against Israel". Williams supported UN Watch's condemnation of the UN Human Rights Council as a hypocritical organization, but also condemned UN Watch itself of hypocrisy for failing to denounce what he called manifest Israeli transgressions against the human rights of Palestinians.

Ian Williams was twice president and twice vice president of the United Nations Correspondents Association, originated the UNCA award for best UN coverage in 1995 years ago, and is a judge in the New York Overseas Press Club Awards. He has appeared on ABC, BBC, ITN, CNN and contributed to Newsday, LA Weekly, Village Voice, New York Observer, Penthouse. He is also the author of Rum: A Social and Sociable History of the Real Spirit of 1776, The Deserter: Bush's War on Military Families, Veterans and His Past, The Alms Trade and The UN For Beginners

It has also been noted that Misplaced Pages doesn't have any article on Williams, Williams may not have ever been a staff writer for a "major" publication.

Thanks,--70.225.142.161 (talk) 20:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Op-ed articles, especially those by guest writers, often are subject to less editorial scrutiny than news reports. So it is safer to say that Journalist Ian Williams described UN Watch as X, Y and Z, thus making it clear that this is Williams's take on matters, not necessarily a universally-accepted fact.

A couple of more general points here, just for your interest. Note that I don't bring out the common fallacy about op-eds, in contrast to news stories, not being fact-checked - it is (in the vast majority of cases) a myth that news stories are fact-checked anyway, other than by their author. Also note that in British newspapers the line between op-ed and news reporting is much more blurred than it is in North American newspapers. News stories in British papers, particularly those written by subject specialists (the political editor, the religion correspondent, etc.) frequently contain some subjective analysis as well as objective statements of fact.

Neither of these points is specifically relevant to Williams but I thought I'd mention them anyway, as this issue of op-eds as reliable sources comes up so often! Barnabypage (talk) 20:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

So your suggestion is that the material is acceptable as long as the material is clearly attributed and qualified as the opinion of Ian Williams? Thanks for your feedback,--70.225.142.161 (talk) 22:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I had a quick look at the most recent version of the article and I would consider it absolutely fine. It's a straightforward statement of what Williams, prima facie a responsible journalist and writing for a source that is generally regarded as reliable, said. What is the problem here? (I'm not familiar with the subject.) Is it a controversial point of view? Barnabypage (talk) 01:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Phrasing it as being the opinion of Ian Williams would make it acceptable in terms of reliability ... However, note that there may be other reasons not to accept it. Not all opinions are worth including. Stephen Hawking's opinion on partical physics is note worthy... his opinion on the Crimean War is not. Context is important. See WP:UNDUE for more on that. So it comes down to this... is Ian Williams's opinion on the UN Watch worthy of metntion in the specific article under discussion? I will leave it to others to argue that out. Blueboar (talk) 23:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

He was, per the original question, "twice president and twice vice president of the United Nations Correspondents Association". I certainly haven't checked it out in detail, but this would tend to suggest that his opinions on the UN are more noteworthy than those of Hawking's on the Crimean War! Barnabypage (talk) 01:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Would WP:NPOV/N be the place to collect input then? Thanks, --70.225.142.161 (talk) 01:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

www.americanboardofsportpsychology.org

Hi, User:BruceGrubb is wanting to use Terry Sandbek, Ph.D. "Brain Typing: The Pseudoscience of Cold Reading" Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology as a source on Multi-level Marketing. The site is ostensibly a peer-reviewed journal however the "journal" appears to consist of a sum total of 8 articles appearing only on the rather unprofessional looking website and the document in question doesn't even appear to be one of those. The "journal" itself seems to have racked up a sum total of one citation, in an obscure Pakistani journal . Given the article in question is (a) not by an expert in, or about, the topic in question (multilevel marketing) (b) probably not peer-reviewed and (c) not in a journal of any standing even if it was, it would appear to me to clearly fail WP:RS. Comments appreciated. --Insider201283 (talk) 23:38, 19 February 2010 (UTC) ETA: I found the article in question listed here on the website. It's a "position paper" and listed with other opinion-type pieces. As noted, it's not listed in the "journal" articles section --Insider201283 (talk) 23:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

contrary to what Insider201283 thinks a badly designed web site does not translate into unscholarly. The actual Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology site clearly states: "The Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology is a peer reviewed journal devoted to disseminating scientific and popular research-based articles in an efficient and timely manner. The Journal also publishes technical reports, editorials, opinions, special features, and letters to the editors, as well as classified and other advertising. Peer-reviewed articles are posted in PDF format, requiring that you have ADOBE Reader. If not you can download it for free at www.adobe.com."

Worse for Insider201283 a link to the American Board of Sport Psych. is provided by Adams State College http://www.adams.edu/academics/sportpsych/ who has the following accreditations: North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (NCA-HLC) Accreditation, Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE); Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs (CACREP); and National Association of Schools of Music (NASM), Commission on Accreditation.

Carlstedt PhD, Roland A. (Editor) (2009) Handbook of Integrative Clinical Psychology, Psychiatry, and Behavioral Medicine: Perspectives, Practices, and Research Springer Publishing Company ("Springer Publishing Company is extremely proud of our history -- publishing academic and professional works for more than 50 years.") on page 3 clearly states that Carlstedt has published articles in The Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology and Biofeedback, Cortex, Brain and Cognition.

So an accredited college recommends it and a publisher who had been publishing academic and professional works for more than 50 years uses it as why an author of its Handbook of Integrative Clinical Psychology, Psychiatry, and Behavioral Medicine: Perspectives, Practices, and Research is trustworthy. Oh just in case Insider201283 regales us with some other nonsense Springer Publishing Company also puts out A Guide to the Standard EMDR Protocols for Clinicians, Supervisors, and Consultants, Chemistry and Physics for Nurse Anesthesia: A Student Centered Approach, Handbook of Forensic Neuropsychology, Second Edition, and EMDR and the Art of Psychotherapy With Children: Treatment Manual and Text just to mention a few.

Talk about major egg on the face. Sheesh Insider201283 do you even know how to do actual research before posting this nonsense?!?--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

egg on the face indeed ... your own quote above says "The Journal also publishes technical reports, editorials, opinions, special features, and letters to the editors,.... Peer-reviewed articles are posted in PDF format". All other matters of reliability aside, what format is the Sandbek article in Bruce? --Insider201283 (talk) 00:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, it is in word but thes Journal also states--

RATINGS:

(*) for the researcher and practitioner (more technical/scientific)PEER-REVIEWED

(**) for coaches and athletes (research-based but less technical/more applied)

(***) research based popular article (written with the lay person in mind)

It is clear that not all PEER-REVIEWED papers were in PDF format as the

American Psychological Association Divisions 47 and 6 (Behavioral Neuroscience) 2004 Convention Symposium: Integrative Sport Psychology (*,**) Presented Papers section only one of the six papers is in the PDF format. All the rest are in powerpoint format even though the one star (*) denotes all as "for the researcher and practitioner (more technical/scientific)PEER-REVIEWED" and then you have three star (***) articles in PDF format even though the ratings only expressly states that one star articles are PEER-REVIEWED. I am inclined to trust the star ratings rather than the format especially as PEER-REVIEWED is in all caps and bolded.--BruceGrubb (talk) 01:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, I note again, even if one accepted it was a prestigious well known peer-reviewed journal, and clearly relevant to MLM (neither of which are true) the article in question is not even listed on the journal page. The front page of the site says "Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology Inaugural Issue now Available", and following that link gives a page that does NOT include the Sandbek article . The Sandbek article is instead listed at the bottom of the home page under "articles". Having an asterisk beside an article saying "peer-reviewed" on a clearly amateur website does not make something a reliable source. --Insider201283 (talk) 02:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Not listed on the journal page?!? Are you blind?!? "BE SURE TO SCROLL DOWN TO SEE ALL CONTENT" The entire page is the journal!

You have 'Sport Psychology in the News' followed by a book review followed by "ARTICLES ETC. (see Library below for Download)" and the very first thing you hit is

POSITION PAPER #1 on BRAIN TYPING

1. Pseudoscience of Brain Typing by Terry Sandbek, Ph.D.HIGHLY RECOMMENDED article on Critical Thinking in Sport Psychology

IT IS THE VERY FIRST ARTICLE YOU COME TO!!! It is ranked as PEER REVIEWED in bold caps due to the one star (*) and then it is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED also in bold caps in the text right next to it. How on earth do you miss that?!?

In the download section that says "SPORT PSYCHOLOGY ARTICLES" Sandbek article is the last one on page one (assuming 10 pages).--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Can you be specific as to what statements the paper in question needs to support? Different statements get held to different standards, there isn't such a thing as an expert on every subject (well, possibly Da Vinci or Asimov; but they're dead). Having a Journal and a PhD is nice in general, but what does sports medicine have to do with Multi-level marketing? --GRuban (talk) 00:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The claim made in the WP article, based on Sandbek, is Another charge is "By its very nature, MLM is completely devoid of any scientific foundations."--Insider201283 (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Straight from the paper: "In the following article our author Dr. Terry Sandbek addresses Brain Typing and pseudoscience in Sport Psychology." The just of the article regarding MLM begins in the section "Brain Typing as a Product" subsection "Multilevel Marketing (MLM)" which has this lead in right before it: "None of them have any direct link to applied science or scientific research. Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking, his two previous ventures, have no connection to findings within the scientific community."

Sandbek then sites one MLM critical website after the other for about two pages. Not only are Taylor, FitzPatrick, and Vanduff here but so are Lanford and Barrett. Sandbek then goes into "Pop Psychology of Positive Thinking" which tangentally touches on the methods MLMs use. Then you hit "The pseudoscientist uses testimonials as evidence." and the whole pseudoscience dynamic which is not just part of Brain typing but also Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking.--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yup, he cites multiple non-RS websites as his sources. You're not helping your case Bruce. Let's just wait for some more 3rd party opinions hey? --Insider201283 (talk) 02:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Insider201283 claimed this before but the fact is one of these sources are referenced in a Juta Academic publication and Taylor is referenced four times in Cruz's peer reviewed 2008 "A System Dynamics Model for Studying the Structure of Network Marketing Organizations". In short Sandbek is not a one trick pony and there are other reliable sources that use these people or their sites as references.--BruceGrubb (talk) 03:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

This RS/N request is with regard Sandbek as an RS. If you want to query others, post them for discussion. --Insider201283 (talk) 14:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Insider, but it was YOU who brought up the "non-RS websites" claim and so made it relevant the issue of Sandbek being an RS. The main page is referenced by an accredited college on their web page and is used a expertise qualifier on another book published by Springer Publishing Company.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, this page is to get others opinions on the source in question, not for back and forth bickering. Let's wait for more 3rd party opinions. --Insider201283 (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Aha. Now it makes sense. From reading the paper, Sandbek is criticizing one specific person, Jon Niednagel, who is apparently is trying to do something called Brain Typing which has something to do with Sport Psychology (hence the sports medicine connection). As one of his criticisms, Sandbek mentions that Niednagel was involved with MLM. The sentence in context is:

Such is the case with Brain Typing. Mr. Niednagel is quick to claim a scientific basis for his product but is unable to offer any solid evidence that it is based on any scientific principles. This is not surprising when we look at the types of businesses that he has promoted in the last few decades. None of them have any direct link to applied science or scientific research. Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking, his two previous ventures, have no connection to findings within the scientific community.

The article, including the quoted sentence, is primarily a criticism of Niednagel specifically, not of MLM in general, and I suspect Sandbek would reject any claims of being an expert on MLM in general. Not appropriate for the MLM article. If we have an article on Brain Typing or Niednagel, it would be a good source there, but MLM is much bigger than Niednagel.

That said, however, surely there is no lack of better sources to criticise MLM. Consumer advocates, attorneys general, economists, all those would be much better critics than sports medicine experts. --GRuban (talk) 21:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

While the article is mainly critical of Niednagel the section of the article in question is critical of MLMs in general. In fact the lead in right before the relevant section expressly states "None of them have any direct link to applied science or scientific research. Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking, his two previous ventures, have no connection to findings within the scientific community." then we have some two page worth of material on MLMs in general finishing up with the conclusion "By its very nature, MLM is completely devoid of any scientific foundations." (the quoted piece). This section is focused on how reliable the MLM model itself is. This along with the rest of the paper when through the peer review process and it if wasn't usable it would have never been allowed.

This is akin to saying because Higgs, Philip (2007) Rethinking Our World Juta Academic ("Juta is respected as South Africa's pre-eminent academic and law publisher") is mainly on philosophy that all its comments about MLMs are useless. MLMs have been called cults as far back as 1985 (related in a Western Journal of Communication 2003 article and so itself based on RS) and cults are something that is in the realm of both philosophy and psychology and Sandbek is an expert in psychology.

As for better sources that are critical of MLMs Insider201283 has tried to keep those out too. He claimed Cruz (2008) was not peer reviewed even though I had clearly stated it was (and later proving it was). He said an article by no less than The Times was not a reliable source (see the end of Talk:Multi-level_marketing/Archive_2#Multitude_of_self-published_source for that insanity). He tried to imply a Religion Dispatches piece date February 11, 2009 some how predated an ISP article dated Jan 28, 2009 to keep it out. The claim of ""basic mathematics shows" is code for "I'm talking about pyramid schemes, not MLM"" regarding the "The False Lure of Multi-Level Marketing" By David John Marotta Aug 3, 2009 article which appeared in various papers including the Central New York Business Journal is typical of the nonsense we have seen on the talk page.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Amazingly, on this very page Bruce is telling another editor that an author should be an expert in the main area of the article. With regards other sources, there are actually very few quality sources "critical" of MLM, it's the internet gossip columnists that primarily drive that aspect of the conversation. Actual business experts understand the difference between MLMs and Pyramids and don't accuse MLMs of having the failings of pyramids. That's *why* Misplaced Pages requires quality sources - so that myths based on poor knowledge or understanding are not spread. I will challenge poor sources no matter what their POV, and as already noted I've also challenged the use of some pro-MLM sources that do not pass muster as RS/V. There *are* plenty of RS sources available, there's no reason not to stick to them.--Insider201283 (talk) 14:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Bruce, I don't buy it. Note the word "his" in your quote there. Note the article title: "Brain Typing: The Pseudoscience of Cold Reading". Note the Editor's Note at the top of the article, "In the following article our author Dr. Terry Sandbek addresses Brain Typing and pseudoscience in Sport Psychology." All of those point to the author not focusing on MLM in general, but this one practitioner of it, merely tarring that practitioner by association with MLM. Sandbek has lots of other references there as to why MLM is bad, so you can try and use those directly, but they're not Sandbek. Sandbek himself has one sentence in there of his own that could, out of context, be read as critical of MLM in general without mentioning his real target, but that's not the point of the piece, so shouldn't be used for a fairly strong attack on MLM in general. --GRuban (talk) 15:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Use Talyor, Fiztpatric, and Vandruff directly? But Insider201283 is fighting those references too! He is even fighting references that appear in Wiley and Sage with "stating something is "a legal pyramid scheme" is a clear oxymoron and clear evidence the author is NOT a reliable source on the topic." garbage. He defends Wiley with Rubino but when anti-MLM stuff by Carroll (2003) and Coenen (2009) in the exact same publication appear we get this "clear evidence the author is NOT a reliable source on the topic" garbage.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Anti-Defamation League

Can I use the website of Anti-Defamation League (www.adl.org) as a reliable source for the claims made in Current Communist antisemitism? I have attributed the claims to ADL, i.e. "according to the Anti-Defamation League ..." --Defender of torch (talk) 13:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Websites of known organizations can certainly be used as cites for official positions and opinions of the organizations. Collect (talk) 13:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. --Defender of torch (talk) 13:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

This is beyond the scope of this particular noticeboard but you probably also want to cite a third-party reliable source which mentions the ADL's view on this particular topic. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The ADL is an expert source on antisemitism; there is no need for additional third-party sources. Jayjg 01:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I wish you were around when I tried to make the same argument! A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Devin Sper

A book by this author entitled the Future of Israel is being used as a source in the article on the Battle of Yad Mordechai. The book uses flaming emotional language and is blatantly biased, including verses of poetry throughout. He keeps reiterating mention of Israeli struggle, sacrifice and heroism, talks about 26 martyrs in the battle who not merely sacrificed themselves but their enemies for Kiddush Hashem, and writes of how God seeks the blood of His enemies and that Israeli victories magnify and sanctify God in the eyes of the world. See page 196 and what follows in the book here. Can this really be used as a source in Misplaced Pages? --Sherif9282 (talk) 14:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Obviously this isn't a reliable source in general, but we need to look at what it's being used to source here. It is being used as a source for one of the estimates for the size of the Egyptian force. Repeat: one of the estimates. I therefore do not see it as harmful to the article. Other claims should not be attributed to this source though, or if notable enough, should be qualified. —Ynhockey 00:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Fan page article on James Wesley Rawles

I am curious about third opinion of the sourcing of the James Wesley Rawles article. I see that the key editor User:Trasel is an active participant on the blog of this self published survivalist author raising questions of independence. Looking at most of the 75 references to the article I see that they are nearly all self referential, pointing either to his self published book or blog. I didn't check all 75 references, and no doubt there are a few that do barely mention this author in third party sources, but I see none that feature this author amounting to notability. Multiple links that point to independent sources come up as dead links. I notice the earlier article for AFD debate in April 2008 was likely influenced by editor canvasing, and can guess that the 75 references now are in response to criticism then. SaltyBoatr (talk) 17:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

There are certainly a lot of issues with that article. First, while the article does establish that Rawles is notable within the survivalist movement, I think it needs to establish that he is notable beyond that fringe group. As Salty points out, the article is mostly supported by blog and forum postings. What is needed is some reference to Rawles by reliable secondary sources (mainstream Media coverage etc.) Even disparaging references that say the guy is a nut case would qualify.

Second, we need to look into the sources that are cited. Some of this qualifies as Primary SPS citations (ie SPS by the subject, not SPS about the subject) used to support the fact that Rawles holds certain views. As such, they might be reliable (assuming we can verify that the person posting is in fact Rawles). The other postings should probably be removed as being not reliable.

Finally, If this guy has a fan base who will overwhelm an AfD with WP:ILIKEIT arguments, then it is important to demonstrate that an serious attempt to properly establish notability was made (and failed) before the article is renominated for deletion. Blueboar (talk) 18:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at Google News Archive I see very little about this author in the mainstream press with one interesting article in Library Journal describing how libraries were caught off guard when this author's book was a hot seller at Amazon, but was a niche title not reviewed in any of the usual professional sources and was purchased by almost no libraries, with the conclusion that "It appeals to a small but vociferous group of people concerned with survivalism". That too seems the case with this article, being written by an ardent survivalist fan base. Considering the low threshold for notablity for fan base articles in Misplaced Pages, this author could win an AfD ILIKEIT vote. And, the problem still remains, I think, with the WP:RS standard for the 75 footnotes of the article. SaltyBoatr (talk) 22:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

OK... I will take a look at the citations and do some cleaning out. Blueboar (talk) 22:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Having looked at this further, I actually think this guy is marginally notable. But the article makes a LOT more of him than he deserves. The key is to trim down the stuff cited to his own writings and re-focus the article on what is important to an average reader... he is a survivalist author who has occasionally been quoted or mentioned in news articles about survivalism (usually in passing), and his blog has garnered some interest since the economy started sucking. Blueboar (talk) 04:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Reliable Sources?: Doug Saunders and Linda McQuaig

The below discussion was started on Talk:Tobin_tax

It was originally entitled, "Unreliable source: Linda McQuaig" and was started by "Cosmic Cube" (not myself)

I, Boyd Reimer, am seeking other editors to join this discussion for the following reason: If two heads are better than one, then I propose that three heads are better than two.

Boyd Reimer (talk) 18:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion begins here

I would suggest that Linda McQuaig is an unreliable source. For example, in one article she claims that Paul Volcker is a transaction tax supporter (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/762427--mcquaig-tory-chill-freezes-out-tobin-tax). She provides no support for this assertion. However, a Reuters article shows that Volcker opposes this idea (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BC0MH20091213) and they are able to quote him directly as evidence.

There are two possibilities regarding what could have happened here with respect to McQuaig (not necessarily mutually exclusive):

1. McQuaig is a mediocre journalist: I was able to find a direct source on Volcker's views in a few minutes. If I am able to do this and McQuaig cannot then it casts serious doubt on her journalistic ability.

2. McQuaig is biased (and, thus, willing to be loose with the facts when it comes to her bias): Here is a quote from McQuaig's article:

"What a tragedy that, as this rare opportunity approaches, we are saddled with the small-minded, Bay Street-beholden Harper government. Will we be doomed again to watch the Harperites stage photo-ops of themselves, this time hugging the CN Tower and straddling cannons at Old Fort York, while the rest of the G20 struggles to rein in reckless financial markets?"

A cursory review of articles by McQuaig suggests she is incapable of writing anything without directly attacking people she doesn't like (typically people in right-of-center governments). She is clearly spinning this against a political party she disagrees with (I don't think "staging photo-ops" is a characteristic exclusive to any particular part of the political spectrum). Would she still be saying the same thing if it were left-of-center party members engaging in the same behavior?

I don't know which of these cases is true, but at least one of them must be. In either event, this suggests that McQuaig is unreliable and I would propose to other editors that she not be used as a primary source in the future.

(The other possibility here, not having anything to do with McQuaig, is that Volcker changed his mind between December 13, 2009 (Reuters article) and February 9, 2010 (McQuaig's article). This seems unlikely given the short amount of time between these articles and the fact that he has had President Obama's ear during this period when the Volcker proposals were taking shape.)

Cosmic Cube (talk) 00:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

See below discussion Boyd Reimer (talk) 20:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

"Opposers" can "soften their doubts" as time passes

• On December 11, 2009, the Financial Times reported the following: "Since the Nov 7 summit of the G20 Finance Ministers , the head of the International Monetary Fund, Mr Strauss-Kahn seems to have softened his doubts, telling the CBI employers' conference: "We have been asked by the G20 to look into financial sector taxes . . This is an interesting issue . . We will look at it from various angles and consider all proposals."" see source

Notice that Strauss-Kahn took only one month to "soften his doubts."

It is possible that this can happen to others as well.

Therefore we must allow for this possibility in others also. For example Paul Volcker may have changed his mind between December, 2009 and February 2010.

Compare this edit and this edit

Also we must address the question of what is a reliable source: Is the Globe and Mail an unreliable source?

Boyd Reimer (talk) 01:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I noted that it was possible for Volcker to have changed his mind. I don’t think that he has since then he could have chosen to make a FTT part of his proposal to the President. However, that is just my opinion and that does not count for anything. The only things that do count are reliably sourced statements that are directly attributable to Volcker. The December article provides this. The February article does not.

As for the Globe and Mail, I believe you are referring to: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/a-tobin-tax-the-outr-is-back-in/article1458027. This is an acceptable source on Christine Lagarde’s views since the author directly interviews her. It is not an acceptable source on Volcker’s views. For all we know, the author is simply referencing something he read in McQuaig’s earlier article.

As editors, it is not our job to allow for the possibility of individuals to change their minds. Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball (WP:NOTCRYSTAL). If Volcker wishes to change his mind, he is free to do so at any time. It is not our place to speculate if or when he might do so. If he updates his views and makes them known to the general public through reliable sources, then we will make note of that in the appropriate spot in the article. That’s our job. Nothing more.

Cosmic Cube (talk) 02:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings Cosmic Cube: Thank you for doing the extra research in finding a quote directly from Volcker himself.

I agree with your approach of using such quotes as the ultimate authority in cases when there are conflicting reports. But if you hadn’t found that direct quote, then I would have, in good faith, trusted the prominent journalist Doug Saunders. Why? Because Saunders was covering a new event: the meeting in Canada. Therefore, in good faith, I assumed that he had new information coming from that new event.

Thank you again for your clarifying research.

As an aside, I titled this discussion "as time passes," because in the future it could be a place to discuss people other than Volcker. (I purposely prefaced my discussion of Volcker with the words, "for example.")

Thanks again for your research.

Boyd Reimer (talk) 20:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, I checked this Misplaced Pages policy about on the reliability of sources and found this quote: "The most reliable sources are usually peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria. Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources .... Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation."

The particular McQuaig article you are referred to in the above (previous) discussion is published by the Toronto Star, Canada's largest daily newspaper.

Instead of discounting it outright, Misplaced Pages policy suggests that "Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation."

A provocative style of writing is common among columnists from all sides of the political spectrum. (That is probably done to stir readers to write in, start a discussion, create a buzz, thereby causing more papers to be sold.) I am accustomed to seeing this from all sides of the political spectrum. Yet, despite that common culture of writing styles, it is still important not to tell an untruth. (Of course, an encyclopedic style of writing is very different from the columnist style of writing.)

Boyd Reimer (talk) 20:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, telling an untruth is precisely what McQuaig has done. This is not a case of "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y"; it is a case of "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that John Smith argues Y". That's a crucial distinction. There are only two possibilities for her behavior:

1. She did this unknowingly: If this is the case, then McQuaig is a sloppy journalist (and by extension so are the Toronto Star editors).

2. She did this knowingly: If this is the case, then McQuaig is a biased journalist. It need not be something as clear as outright lying. Maybe she really believed what she was writing. However, it then becomes an issue of her not bothering to check facts when the facts she believes support her position.

One of these cases must be true. In either case, McQuaig is unreliable. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and it needs better sources than this.

Cosmic Cube (talk) 05:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings Cosmic Cube:

You said of Linda McQuaig that "I would propose to other editors that she not be used as a primary source in the future."

This is a proposal that is of a very serious nature, and it requires careful analysis before we ban all editors from using her again.

First point: The only way that McQuaig is proven false is if it is not possible for Volcker to have changed his views between December and February. But you have already admitted that it is possible that Volcker may have changed his views in that time.

Second point: You also said, "The only things that do count are reliably sourced statements that are directly attributable to Volcker." With all due respect I should point out that Misplaced Pages policy allows for a broader range of sources than that. See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Reliable_sources

Third: I should also draw your attention to the article on Linda McQuaig. She is a veteran journalist in the particular field of economics and business. She has written nine books which have been peer-reviewed (this is valued by Misplaced Pages policy). One of those reviewers was Noam Chomsky.

I admit that it is possible some of her statements may be proven false in the future. But until such time, we have no conclusive proof to ban references to her articles. I consider it a very serious step to deem a source as "unreliable."

Instead of banning a source outright, it may be better to attach a note to the edit. For example when a Misplaced Pages editor insisted on including a blatant untruth from an author named Cliff Kincaid, I simply responded by attaching a note to that blatant falsehood: Here is the note: .......According to Cliff Kincaid, Castro advocated the Tobin tax "specifically in order to generate U.S. financial reparations to the rest of the world," however a closer reading of Castro's speech shows that he never did mention "the rest of the world" as being recipients of revenue.

Boyd Reimer (talk) 23:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I reiterate. It is not our place to speculate on whether or not Volcker has changed his views (WP:NOTCRYSTAL). The best evidence we have for his views is in the article I provided. To claim otherwise either on your own speculation or McQuaig's vague assertion is unacceptable. If you reread McQuaig's article you will find that she provides no context to allow us to evaluate her claim. This alone makes it suspect given what is known about Volcker's views. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources (WP:REDFLAG). Some points from this policy:

Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim: 1) surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources; 2) reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended...Exceptional claims in Misplaced Pages require high-quality sources. If such sources are not available, the material should not be included.

I do not understand why this is a controversial issue for you. I have made reasonable points regarding problems with a source and made a simple request of other editors to use better sources in the future. Why is this such a difficult thing?

As for the issue of peer review, you seem to have a mistaken view of what this entails. Peer reviews are not sympathetic persons writing kind blurbs to be printed on the backs of books. I suggest you read up on the process of how peer review works in scientific journals. By that standard, nothing McQuaig has written has ever come close to peer review.

Cosmic Cube (talk) 05:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings Cosmic Cube:

Thank you for your comments. After reading my last comment I can understand how you may have been confused by it. Therefore, I should clarify: Here is the sequence in which things happened:

• December 3, 2009 - 22 supporters of domestic financial transaction tax (within the US only) - 22 representatives in the United States House of Representatives supported the US DeFazio financial transaction tax source

• December 7, 2009 - Supporter of international financial transaction tax in the "G20": Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the United States House of Representatives source

• On December 13, 2009 Michael Sheilds wrote the selected quotes in this paragraph: - Paul Volcker, chairman of the US Economic Recovery Advisory Board under President Barack Obama, said he "instinctively opposed" any tax on financial transactions. "But it may be worthwhile to look into the current proposals as long as the result is not predetermined. That would at least end all this renewed talk about the idea, but overall I am skeptical about these ideas." source

• On Feb 4 and 5, there was a meeting in Canada which was new. The reporters covering it were not simply repeating what had happened almost two months earlier (McQuiag writes: "last weekend as he hosted the G7 finance ministers in Iqaluit." source)

• On Feb 5, 2010 Doug Saunders wrote this (published by Globe and Mail): "Paul Volcker, the influential mind behind President Barack Obama's dramatic banking-reform proposals, spoke in its favour." source

• On Feb 9, 2010, Linda McQuaig wrote this (published by Toronto Star): "Even the U.S., which had been resisting, now seems willing to at least consider it, after former central banker Paul Volcker recently emerged as Barack Obama's key adviser on financial reform, pushing aside Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner. Geithner is hostile to the tax; Volcker sees some merit in it." source

With all due respect, I do not see a dramatic "red flag" here. McQuaig's comment is corroborated by Saunders comment, and Saunders comment is corroborated by McQuaig's comment. Both are published in "mainstream" sources: the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star. Two months earlier Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the United States House of Representatives indicated support for a "G20 ... financial transaction tax."

Your use of WP:NOTCRYSTAL does not apply in this case. That Misplaced Pages policy applies only in case when a prediction is made. Neither Saunders nor McQuaig Saunders were making predictions. Doug Saunders wrote in the past tense when he used the word "spoke." Linda McQuaig wrote the word "sees" which is present tense. There is no prediction here. Therefore the use of WP:NOTCRYSTAL does not apply in this case. On Feb 4 and 5, there was a meeting in Canada which was new. The reporters covering it were not simply repeating what had happened almost two months earlier (McQuiag writes: "last weekend as he hosted the G7 finance ministers in Iqaluit." source)

Why am I going through all of this so carefully? I am not going through this explanation so that I can keep the Saunders (Feb 5) quote nor the McQuaig (Feb 9) quote in the "Tobin tax" article. In the above conversation I already thanked you for your discovery of the direct quote from Volcker.

The only reason I am carefully going through this is because you made the statement: "I would propose to other editors that she () not be used as a primary source in the future." I would like to draw your attention to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Misplaced Pages, being the helpful community that it is, has provided this noticeboard so that we can get other editors opinions on this issue. With all due respect, I suggest that we bring this issue to the noticeboard before we delete every reference to Linda McQuaig or Doug Saunders in the "Tobin tax" article. I suggest that this action should be taken before any further deletions occur.

I am willing to live with the deletion of the Feb 5 and 9 writings. But it is a completely different situation to say "I would propose to other editors that she not be used as a primary source in the future."

Boyd Reimer (talk) 13:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the lengthy response. However, please note that what you have written is unrelated to the issues I raised.

1. The WP:REDFLAG policy does apply here and the chronology you have listed is completely unrelated to this. Some points from this policy:

Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim: 1) surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources; 2) reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended...Exceptional claims in Misplaced Pages require high-quality sources. If such sources are not available, the material should not be included.

Volcker's views were known prior to the McQuaig article. McQuaig was making an opposite claim to these views. This is a red flag and qualifies as an exceptional claim, thus requiring exceptional evidence. McQuaig provided no evidence.

2. My reference to the WP:NOTCRYSTAL policy is related to your attempts to inject speculation about Volcker's views into the discussion. McQuaig has already failed the test of providing exceptional evidence. Your point that we would have to prove that Volcker could not have changed his mind in between December and February is an example of idle speculation and is inappropriate.

3. As for the Doug Sanders article, I have already stated that it can be used as a source for Christine Lagarde's views. It may not be used as a source for Volcker's views.

4. The only thing I am confused about here is why you expend so much effort in defending McQuaig. Perhaps you would care to explain this. What makes her so indispensable to you?

Cosmic Cube (talk) 15:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings Cosmic Cube:

Thank you for your scrutiny of this very important issue. Scrutiny is healthy for pruning ideas. Two heads are always better than one.

I would like to focus attention on one of your statements: You stated, "Your point that we would have to prove that Volcker could not have changed his mind in between December and February is an example of idle speculation and is inappropriate."

I respectfully disagree with that particular statement of yours:

I have already given the example of Strauss-Kahn who took only one month to "soften his doubts." This example shows that my proposition is not "idle speculation."

Our job as Misplaced Pages editors is to draw upon sources, not to provide our own interpretation. Regardless of whether you or I think that the statements by Linda McQuaig and Doug Saunders are implausible, our opinions do not matter. Our job is simply to bring sources into Misplaced Pages.

If we would do that task without injecting our own interpretation, then all sourced evidence points to the justifiable belief that Volcker did change his mind between December and February. There are no sources yet which contradict the sources of Linda McQuaig nor Doug Saunders. If you can find such a source, I would be happy to rest my case. But so far, I haven't seen such a source. Therefore, all presently available sources support the justifiable belief that Volcker did change his mind.

See Theory of justification .

I will conclude with two logistical notes: First, I am combining this discussion with the above discussion entitled, "Unreliable source: Linda McQuaig." My reason for doing so is because this discussion quotes the earlier discussion. This might be confusing for readers who are following.

Here is my second logistical note: Like I said above, two heads are always better than one. By extension, this means that three heads are better than two, etc, etc. If there is a broader the range of input, then there is a better chance of coming to a compromise on this issue. So far my attempts at compromise appear to have failed. Please don't take this as an insult, but I feel that in order to come to agreement on this important issue, I feel that we need more input from more voices than just two. That is why I am posting this discussion on the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. The title will be: Reliable Sources?: Doug Saunders and Linda McQuaig.

Boyd Reimer (talk) 18:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

At this point I brought the discussion here to the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Boyd Reimer (talk) 18:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Rather than ask if an individual is a reliable source, we should ask whether what they wrote is a reliable source. News articles are reliable sources for facts but editorials are only reliable sources for their writers views. The Four Deuces (talk) 18:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for this. Boyd Reimer (talk) 19:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining in a succinct manner what I have failed to up to this point. We have a news article from December 2009 that interviews the subject (Paul Volcker) on his opinion on a certain economic issue (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BC0MH20091213). We then have an editorial/opinion piece by Linda McQuaig from February 2010 stating that Volcker holds the opposite view to what he has publicly (and recently) stated (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/762427--mcquaig-tory-chill-freezes-out-tobin-tax). This activates WP:REDFLAG. McQuaig's claim is an exceptional claim that requires exceptional sources. Her article provides no evidence whatsoever. Moreover, her article is clearly an opinion piece. An excerpt from McQuaig's article:

"What a tragedy that, as this rare opportunity approaches, we are saddled with the small-minded, Bay Street-beholden Harper government. Will we be doomed again to watch the Harperites stage photo-ops of themselves, this time hugging the CN Tower and straddling cannons at Old Fort York, while the rest of the G20 struggles to rein in reckless financial markets?"

An article like this, where McQuaig openly ridicules people she does not like, is not an objective news piece (and a review of McQuaig's other articles reveal a similar tone). It is an opinion piece and is not an acceptable source to override what is known from reputable sources about Volcker's views in light of the WP:REDFLAG policy.

Despite this, the other editor (Boyd Reimer) insists on engaging in speculation that Volcker may have changed his views, something which I believe is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article (and that contravenes WP:NOTCRYSTAL).

Cosmic Cube (talk) 19:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

• The article by Linda McQuaig is an opinion piece and not a news article. Therefore, it reflects her opinion rather than a journalistic setting forth of facts. —mattisse (Talk) 20:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Aldricharchive.com

There's been an ongoing debate at Talk:Michael Aldrich about information sourced to AldrichArchive.com, which is a number of documents Aldrich donated to the University of Brighton. The website is being used to source a number of big claims added to a number of articles, including home shopping, online shopping, electronic commerce, among others. Most of the edits have been reverted( (except for those at Michael Aldrich), and the discussion now seems to be stalled due to a couple of issues, including the use of aldricharchive.com as a reliable source. Assistance in verifying this source or finding others that can be used for sourcing would be helpful -- the latest discussion is Talk:Michael Aldrich#AldrichArchive.com. Flowanda | Talk 03:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Grancafe

Please provide assistance in verifying sources, finding editors who can and/or communicating with the editor who's adding them. Since December 26, this SPA has made over 1,600 edits, adding an average of 33 edits to 48 articles using sources that have been questioned by multiple editors as to their verifiability and WP:RS. The editor continues to edit articles at an alarming pace and ignores any editor input that doesn't support his edits. I was able to check and add sourcing to a couple of articles, but I simply cannot keep up with the quantity of edits and I don't have the ability to verify the references, most of which are to non-English pages or to offline sources unavailable and unaccessible to me. I know I should provide diffs, but honestly, I just don't know where to begin, other than to provide links to his contribution page, a complaint and related discussions on my talk page. Flowanda | Talk 05:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

TV schedule

Hi,

I need input on whatever the TV schedules posted in this forum thread can be counted as Reliable to assert the X series broadcast on Y network/TV channel. Note that this thread is hosted in the official TV network forum and there is to my knowledge no other place to find broadcast information in the whole official website.

Thanks --KrebMarkt 08:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Bulletin/Message boards are not reliable sources. Jayjg 16:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I wanted a refined assessment not a mantra recitation. Cordially. --KrebMarkt 17:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you prove who posted the schedule? Is it by a spokesperson of the station? It's very strange that a TV network's website wouldn't contain a printed schedule. Squidfryerchef (talk) 18:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, taken at face value, the posting appears to be from the Executive Producer and Production Assistant. If true, this would qualify as WP:SPS, correct? As for it being strange, if this is a Japanese program broadcasting in a Spanish-language nation, this might be the only source in English (of course, that's pure speculation on my part.) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm in conflict with editors from Philippine wanting adamantly to add broadcast information. Because i'm clearly not neutral, i was dropping here the less crappy reference i was provided for evaluation. You can read the Ip tantrum here.

My personal opinion on this one: It cannot constitute a RS because it's most likely TV schedules posted by a benevolent user with the tacit approval of the TV Network forum moderators. The information is certainly trustworthy and accurate but a step short to our standard for a Reliable Source. Checking this "Production Assistant" forum post history reveals a behavior closer to an user with privileged information access rather than a real TV network staff member.

Now if someone more neutral than me can give another opinion based on arguments that would be better than what i say versus what they say in such dispute. Thanks --KrebMarkt 19:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a refined assessment: WP:SPS. Jayjg 20:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

KrebMarkt seats on the dusty roadside and laughs out of bitterness until its hurts. Thanks nevertheless. --KrebMarkt 07:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You are most welcome. Jayjg 01:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It would help if you linked to the specific article where this is an issue. A lot depends on context. Blueboar (talk) 19:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

See Aria (manga) just the infobox information on network broadcast. Thanks you much for you time. --KrebMarkt 20:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Phillip Matier and Andrew Ross of the San Francisco Chronicle

Would Phillip Matier and Andrew Ross be considered reliable Sources? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/matierandross/index Both are columnists for the San Francisco Chronicle, which in and of itself is certainly a reliable mainstream American newspaper. Both are certainly subject to editorial review by the editors at the San Francisco Chronicle. This being the case, can we disregard them as "gossip bloggers" and treat them as unreliable sources, or since they are subject to editorial review and published by a mainstream newspaper, would they be reliable sources? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 19:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Would anything change regarding their reliability if the entire editorial board of the San Francisco Chronicle published an opinion piece verifying the original story a couple of days later? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 20:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Meets RS. Whether it's the best source for a particular article is up for discussion. Squidfryerchef (talk) 20:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

They would generally be considered to be reliable. Jayjg 21:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Current Psychology

I want to confirm whether Current Psychology a peer-reviewed journal or not. Sources say Current Psychology is a peer-reviewed academic journal. Founded and originally published by the Transaction Publishers, the journal is now published by the Springer Science+Business Media. According to SpringerLink, "from volume 1 (1981) to Volume 2 (1982), this journal was published as Current Psychological Research; as of Volume 3 (1984), the journal merged with Current Psychological Reviews; and from Volume 3 (1984) to Volume 6 (1987), this journal was published as Current Psychological Research & Reviews." The journal is subscribed by university libraries like the library of the University of South Alabama. But a discussion at Talk:Hugo_Chávez#Antisemitism discredit it. Requesting third party opinion. --Defender of torch (talk) 02:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

It certainly qualifies as an "academic journal". A reliable source per WP:RS. The exact reviewing policy by editorial board is not important. The citation index is low (0.2), but this is common for social sciences.Biophys (talk) 02:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

So one thing we can conclude, whether peer reviewed or not, it is certainly a RS. --Defender of torch (talk) 03:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

No, not whether peer reviewed or not. People raised sensible points on the talk page about whether the journal currently claims to be peer reviewed. Another point to bear in mind is that peer reviewed journals sometimes include categories of articles that aren't peer reviewed. Letters to the editor, for example, and there can be other exceptions. The status of this particular article can be, and should be, checked out. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Brief Chronicles

Is the Oxfordian journal Brief Chronicles considered to be a reliable source for the Misplaced Pages Shakespeare authorship question article? It focuses on a fringe theory, the Shakespeare authorship question, from an Oxfordian perspective (i.e. the assumption that Edward deVere, the 17th Earl of Oxford, was the true author of the Shakespeare canon). See the focus and scope statement.

Reading the “about” page, it is apparent that the journal was planned and carefully constructed to give the impression of a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal. However, the publication is controlled by general editor Dr. Roger Stritmatter, an Oxfordian whose commitment to spreading the gospel is well known to Misplaced Pages Shakespeare editors, and the 12-member board includes at least 10 identified Oxfordians, such as Dr. Michael Delahoyde of Washington State University and Dr. Richard Waugaman of the Georgetown University of Medicine and Washington Psychoanalytic Institute. While the accomplishments of these people should not be disparaged, they believe in a fringe theory (which is not all that unusual among certain percentage of academics) and participate on the board of a publication devoted to promoting a theory well outside the accepted scholarly consensus.

In its inaugural number, Brief Chronicles published 10 articles, ostensibly chosen by a double-blind peer review. Coincidentally, three of the 10 were authored by members of the editorial board. They included such articles as “The Psychology of the Authorship Question,” which according to the abstract, “Employs a historical/psychoanalytical model to understand why so many academicians are resistant to rationale discourse on the authorship question”; “Francis Meres and the Earl of Oxford”, which supposedly “Analyzes the numerical structure of Francis Meres' 1598 Palladis Tamia to show that Meres not only knew that Oxford and Shakespeare were one and the same, but that he constructed his publication to carefully alert the reader to this fact” (and incidentally marks the Oxfordian descent into cryptic number puzzles that formerly were the sole province of Baconism); and “Edward de Vere's Hand in Titus Andronicus”.

I believe that WP:PARITY applies to this publication, especially the sentence, "Note that fringe journals exist, some of which claim peer review. Only a very few of these actually have any meaningful peer review outside of promoters of the fringe theories, and should generally be considered unreliable. Examples: The Creation Science Quarterly, Homeopathy, Journal of Frontier Science . . . and many others." Tom Reedy (talk) 03:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

As I see from their editorial board ] Brief Chronicles is obviously a peer reviewed journal with high standards. The editor in chief is Gary Goldstein, former editor and publisher of The Elizabethan Review, a semi-annual peer reviewed journal published from 1993 to 1999 on the English Renaissance. The rest of the editorial team has similar credentials. If that were not enough, the journal will be indexed by the Modern Language Association International Bibliography and the World Shakespeare Bibliography. Definitely RS. Smatprt (talk) 04:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The Elizabethan Review was no more WP:RS than this publication. Its board was made up of much the same type of partisans as the one under discussion here. I don't understand why Oxfordians believe that any publication in a true peer-reviewed journal at any time confers the magic wand of credibility to all subsequent activities, but it appears they do. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Smatprt that Brief Chronicles is a peer reviewed journal with high standards. The editorial board is made up entirely of people with credible academic credentials. Both the editor in chief and executive editor have impressive track records. Those bringing this challenge ignore the fact that the journal will be indexed by the Modern Language Association International Bibliography and the World Shakespeare Bibliography. The journal clearly meets RS requirements. Schoenbaum (talk) 06:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, Schoenbaum, you seem to be a new WP:SPA with few edits, all but one to the talk page of the authorship article.

Smatprt will recall a related discussion here from last year. Dougweller (talk) 10:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I do remember that discussion. At the time, this board looked at the credentials of the editorial team, asking relevant questions about their expertise. I would hope that a similar exercise is involved here.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Both Smatprt and Schoenbaum are SPA editors whose sole activity on Misplaced Pages is to promote Oxfordianism. They are not in any way independent commentators. I am not independent either, since I am an active contributor to the page with a bias against Oxfordianism. However I consider that to be no different from my "bias" against fringe theories in general, as this "bias" is the bias of Misplaced Pages itself. It seems clear to me that this is a journal dedicated to a fringe theory set up and staffed by proponents of a fringe theory. It is no different from Creationist journals that can boast PhDs on their boards. The important thing is that this journal does not accept articles purely on the basis of their academic worth, to be reviewed by those scholars who are best qualified to assess them, irrespective of whether or not they agree with the article's ideological position. Paul B (talk) 10:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I would ask that Paul (and others) actually look at my editing history. I am hardly a SPA editor, having made over 6000 edits to close to 100 articles, ranging from Shakespeare to West Side Story. I would ask Paul to rescind his statement.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I would agree. Look at his editing history. The last time he edited an article not obviously related to Shakespeare authorship was on the 7th feb, when he added this to Historical revisionism. Paul B (talk) 22:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't look like a mainstream academic journal since it doesn't have a publisher like Sage, Taylor & Francis, Oxford etc. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The page is deeply troubled, and probably cannot be edited to wikipedian standards, because there is an editorial block by a group which is actively promoting by its edits the fringe theory. Most of the text is sourced to articles and books that, in academic terms, are not RS, but are RS for the fringe theories, being examples of them. Attempts to introduce proper RS on crucial questions in the lead leads to endless blather. There are 57 candidates for an alternative Shakespeare, each with a coterie of passionate fans, but here the de Vere school, and Diana Price are showcased, in a way that smacks of promotion.

The WP:SPA editors who have entered the fray don't appear to show any interest in the wider work on wikipedia. On an article dealing with borderline, fringe ideas, one needs several experienced hands who have a thorough understanding of the rules to prevent gaming. This won't occur.

WP:PARITY, as Tom notes, affirms that 'fringe journals exist, some of which claim peer review. Only a very few of these actually have any meaningful peer review outside of promoters of the fringe theories, and should generally be considered unreliable.' That reallyshould clinch it. The operation looks fraudulent.

The article is ranked of high importance. Why a fringe theory with 'virtually no' academic support should merit a 'high importance' tag is unclear.

In lieu of concrete measures, the best solution would be to leave it to the SPA block, but impose of them a requirement that their present hyperactivism be focused to bringing the page up to GA level review within a month or two, and then get experienced GA reviewers who know both wikipedia policies and the Elizabethan period, or Shakespeare, to examine the quality of their work. As it is, this looks like a page that will have a huge volume of talk page edits and chats reflecting stalemate between proponents of mainstream scholarship and representatives of the fringe theory, with no significant measures of improvement towards the minimal requirements stipulated by the policies adumbrated in WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:FRINGE etc.Nishidani (talk) 11:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, I am hardly an SPA editor. The rest of this post is troublesome as well. Accusations such as "fraudulent" really have no place here. Nishidani also knows full well that the article has been going through a major clean-up, line-by-line in some cases, which he is a participating in, though he has spent much time arguing endlessly with his own team over using "a" instead of "the". I also question why he would attack such researchers such as Diana Price when his own team-member, Tom Reedy, was the editor who suggested using Ms. Price's work in the article.(Ms. Price, by the way, is not an Oxfordian, but is anti-Stratfordian). All this is, of course, off topic. Can we get back to looking at the qualifications of the editorial board and such requirements as the double-blind review process which the journal employs?.

Is there any editor of this journal who is not an Oxfordian or, *gasp*, a Stratfordian? Inquiring minds want to know. ScienceApologist (talk) 12:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

If there's anything Oxfordians hate more than a Stratfordian, it's a Baconian. You might find tentative tolerance of Derbyites. Paul B (talk) 13:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The only "hate" involved, as evidenced on the talk page, is that exhibited by Stratfordians. Mainstream stratfordians, such as Alan Nelson, even appear at various authorship conferences where they are welcomed openly. Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

All but two of the 12 members are open, admitted Oxfordians. Explicit information about the authorship sympathies of the other two, Carole Chaski and Donald Otrowski, is harder to come by, but Chaski has worked with Stritmatter on another project concerning Herman Melville, and Otrowski appears in an anti-Stratfordian documentary that I have not seen and his Harvard English class has been cited by some as the beginning of their interest in Oxfordism. I'm sure Dr. Stritmatter, who is a very active editor on the page in question, could enlighten us. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

"Chaski has worked with Stritmatter on another project concerning Herman Melville". Isn't this simply guilt by association?Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a suggestion: you might want to limit comments by involved editors to one or two at the most. If you don't, a look at his editing and discussion history shows that Smatprt will deluge the discussion with irrelevant and tendentious posts that will effectively obfuscate any honest discussion or consensus on the issue by uninvolved editors. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom - you've already posted, what, six or seven edits? This is my second edit, caused mostly by the false accusations being made about my being an SPA (way off base) and other off-topic comments made by your team.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to answer this from a different point of view; I'm going to agree with both sides. :-). Side "A", above, seems to be saying that the journal, publishers and review board, is full of people from one side of a fourfive-way argument, so it's biased. Side "B" seems to be saying that the journal is full of people with Doctorates from respected schools, so it's reliable. I'm going to say you're all right. A source can be both reliable and biased. The article Shakespeare authorship question is specifically about the controversy, so it is a perfectly appropriate place where a journal published and reviewed by highly titled Oxfordians should be cited to explain Oxfordian views; it seems a perfectly reliable source for that branch of scholarship. That said, these views should be appropriately tagged with the caveat that these are the views of Oxfordians, not of all or most Shakespearian scholars in general, since Stratfordians, Baconians, Lettucians and Tomatovians may well differ. --GRuban (talk) 15:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

So IOW, the journals WP:PARITY use as examples, The Creation Science Quarterly, Homeopathy, Journal of Frontier Science, can all be used as reliable sources for the Misplaced Pages articles on creation science, homeopathy, and flying saucers because they have Phds supporting them? Is that what you're saying? Because that sure sounds like what you're saying. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as long as the statements therein are not presented as facts, but as the views of the people making the statements as reasonable representatives of the side in question. You will notice that that is exactly what is done in the specific articles you bring up:

• Creation Science#Notes includes The Vanishing Case for Evolution, Henry M. Morris, Institute for Creation Research; Howe, G. F.; Froede, C. R. .J.r. (1999). "The Haymond Formation Boulder Beds, Marathon Basin, West Texas: Theories On Origins And Catastrophism". Creation Research Society Quarterly Journal 36 (1).; Froede, Carl R. Jr (1995). "Stone Mountain Georgia: A Creation Geologist's Perspective". Creation Research Society Quarterly 31 (4).; Howe, George F.; Froede, Carl R. Jr (1999). "The Haymond Formation Boulder Beds, Marathon Basin, West Texas: Theories On Origins And Catastrophism". Creation Research Society Quarterly 36 (1).; Phillip Johnson. "The Wedge", Touchstone: A Journal of Mere Christianity. July/August 1999.; the Evolution Debate Can Be Won. Phillip Johnson. Truths that Transform; Get Answers: Created Kinds (Baraminology), Answers in Genesis; and so forth.
• Homeopathy#Notes and references includes Hahnemann S (1833/1921), The Organon of the Healing Art; Mathie RT (2003), "The research evidence base for homeopathy: a fresh assessment of the literature", Homeopathy 92 (2): 84–91, PMID 12725250; Caulfield T, Debow S (2005), "A systematic review of how homeopathy is represented in conventional and CAM peer reviewed journals", BMC Complement Altern Med 5: 12, doi:10.1186/1472-6882-5-12, PMID 15955254; King S, "Miasms in homeopathy", Classical homeopathy; and so forth.

I'll stop there before checking the article on flying saucers, but I'll be shocked if it doesn't have any references from people who claim to have been abducted by aliens; it would be a fairly useless article without them, no? No offense, but the same applies here. It wouldn't be a very useful article about Shakespeare authorship question if it couldn't cite the reasoning of the questioners. --GRuban (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Umm, the question was whether it was a reliable source, not whether it is a source that can be used per WP:FRINGE. Paul B (talk) 11:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

And the answer was, yes, it is a reliable source to explain Oxfordian views, which is the point in question. There is no such thing as "a reliable source" without context. This entire noticeboard all about whether a source can be used to back a specific point in a specific article. Surely you would not expect to take the most definitive "yes" answer about the journal here, and use it as justification to use the journal as a reference for an article on nuclear physics, or Indonesian politics, or global warming? ---GRuban (talk) 18:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. There is no such thing as "a reliable source to explain Oxfordian views". That's not what "reliable source" means. Why don’t you read what it says at the top of the page? "Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable". That is the sole purpose of this board, and that was the question that was asked by Tom at the top of this section. Your remark about nuclear physics is both ridiculous and utterly irrelevant. Even the most reliable source on any topic is not reliable for a wholly different one. That's blindingly obvious. We are talking about what's reliable for Shakespeare studies. You don't seem to understand the concept of "reliable source". The fact that an unreliable source can be used in some articles is quite different from saying that it's a reliable source for that or any other article. There are different rules concerning the use of unreliable and reliable sources within articles. Paul B (talk) 22:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable and I am confidant (and would work to insure) that any edits would be appropriately tagged.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This is the kind of response that makes an Oxfordian's heart sing. It's based on the assumption that there is serious scholarly debate, of which this journal is one POV (out of "four" apparently. Where does that number come from?). That is to treat a fringe view as if it were mainstream. If there were genuine academic debate Oxfordians (and presumably proponents of the other "three" positions) would be able to get their theories published within mainstream academic journals. That's what happens when there is a real academic debate between different points of view. It's like saying that there are several views about the origin of the grand Canyon: it was created by Divine Wrath in the Great Flood, by Alien mining engineers, or by erosion, so it's a "three way argument". But the first two theories are not published in independent RS journals. Also, though many of these editors have PhDs, they are not generally for Shakespeare scholarship, or even English literature in several cases. Paul B (talk) 16:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

If a litmus test to decide whether a subject is "genuine" is the ability for researchers to "get their theories published within mainstream academic journals", then that threshold has been met. Not only have "The Review of English Studies"] and "Critical Survey" ] both published articles by anti-Stratfordians, but the Shakespeare authorship studies is now being taught at at least one noted university ]. Paul knows all this, so I wonder why he would post such erroneous information. Smatprt (talk) 17:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

out of "four" apparently. Where does that number come from? Top of your article, the one in question. "Supporters of any one of the four main theories are commonly called Oxfordians, Baconians, Marlovians or Derbyites respectively." Of course, my uncle Al claims to have written Hamlet after he's had a few pints, but as I keep telling him we can't find enough reliable sources to back him. --GRuban (talk) 17:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well that would be five then, including the mainstream view. As for Smatprt's claim that the threshold has been met, your evidence is very weak. Two articles in journals which are not even devoted to Shakespeare or the English Renaissance is negligable. In any case, the first article is not about Oxfordianism. It's about a source for The Tempest. As for the "authorship issue" being taught, that is in the context of debate about the history and interpretation of Shakespeare. Creationmism is also "taught" in universities in that kind of context. As a matter of fact I used to teach the authorship issue myself when I ran a course called "Envisaging Shakespeare" some years ago. Paul B (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

So true. Corrected to five. --GRuban (talk) 18:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Please check your facts. The last time I checked "English Studies" includes Shakespeare! And... "Critical Survey addresses central issues of critical practice and literary theory in a language that is clear, concise, and accessible, with a primary focus on Renaissance and Modern writing and culture. The journal combines criticism with reviews and poetry, providing an essential resource for everyone involved in the field of literary studies. "…an essential journal for anyone interested in the critical debates of our time. Always up to the minute, yet free from jargon, it is also a great place for students to get a sense of what is going on in the subject." —Jonathan Bate, University of Liverpool" Smatprt (talk) 18:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You merely confirm exactly what I said. Neither periodical specialises in Shakespeare or the English Renaissance and the publications (at least the first one) are not even about the "authorship controversy". Paul B (talk) 18:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Paul, but you are just splitting hairs. "The Review of English Studies" and "Critical Survey" not to mention "Notes and Queries" and several others I havn't even mentioned are all peer reviewed academic journals with articles that are applicable to the subject at hand. Heck, "Critical Survey" even has Stanley Wells and Jonathan Bate on its editorial team.Smatprt (talk) 18:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

They may be "applicable", but that's not the issue. They are not about it. There are not articles in mainstream journals engaging in debate about whether Shakespeare or Oxford wrote Hamlet (or any other canonical play). The central point is that this is not a subject of mainstream debate about which there are a range of views. Isolated articles related to the topic are not evidence of mainstream debate about it.

Is there any reason why this debate can't stop while uninvolved editors look at the evidence and make a decision? If they need any further information they'll ask for it. Lobbying in the hope of affecting the outcome is not an honest use of the noticeboard. So please just STFU. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom, using internet slang for vulgar language really isn't helpful. Of course, if you meant "Southern Tenant Farmers Union", then please disregard! In any case, when two of your team make dishonest statements about by editing history in an attempt to sway uninvolved editors, it needs to be answered - especially when they refuse to retract them. Or when Paul makes a blanket (and incorrect) statement that authorship researchers can't get published in mainstream journals, and I can show otherwise, then it is incumbent upon me to do so.Smatprt (talk) 21:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I knew you couldn't do it. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You misrepresent what I said. I didn't say "authorship researchers" could not publish in mainstream journals. any individual can publish if what they write is relevant and legitimate. I said that authorship debate is not part of normal academic discussion in mainstream journals. For comparison, there are articles in mainstream journals discussing whether or not Leonardo da Vinci painted the second version of the Virgin of the Rocks. There are not articles discussing whether or not it expresses secret anti-Catholic symbolism, as claimed by Dan Brown. Paul B (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller wrote above: "With all due respect, Schoenbaum, you seem to be a new WP:SPA with few edits, all but one to the talk page of the authorship article. I will recall a related discussion here from last year." Smatprt replied: "I do remember that discussion. At the time, this board looked at the credentials of the editorial team, asking relevant questions about their expertise. I would hope that a similar exercise is involved here." Paul B. responded: "Both Smatprt and Schoenbaum are SPA editors whose sole activity on Misplaced Pages is to promote Oxfordianism."

It's true that I'm new to Misplaced Pages. Everyone starts somewhere. I make no apology for it, and am willing to respond to questions from the board about my qualifications. Paul B's claim is false, not only as it relates to Smatprt, but also as it relates to me. None of my comments on the talk pages promotes the candidacy of the Earl of Oxford, and none will. That is not my purpose, and he has no basis for saying otherwise. He admitted above that he is biased against Oxfordians. The fact that I've had disagreements with him on the talk pages doesn't make me one. He's just stereotyping me. My comments have been anti-Stratfordian, not Oxfordian. 96.251.82.13 (talk) 00:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You are being transparently disingenuous. Only Oxfordians argue for evidence that "Shakespeare" was dead before 1604, as you have done. Paul B (talk) 21:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm previously uninvolved in this topic, and this thread is not making me eager to get involved.

Brief Chronicles does a pretty good job of looking like an academic journal, but it's clearly a publication founded to advance a specific agenda: giving a veneer of scholarly legitimacy to unorthdox views of Shakespearian authorship. I found this sentence from the editors' introduction to the first issue telling: "Four contributors to our first issue hold PhDs in literary studies; two are MDs with records of publication on literary and historical topics, and six are independent scholars." This is a red flag that the journal advances fringy claims. Certainly independent scholars make valuable contributions to many academic fields, but they also contribute loads of nonsense to poorly refereed venues. Also, the phrasing of the sentence suggests that some of the contributors who hold PhDs or MDs do not currently hold scholarly positions. So a substantial portion of the contributors in the very first issue do not currently hold teaching or research positions. Frankly, this looks like a fanzine dressed up as an academic journal. Still, it may be that this periodical can be cited in Misplaced Pages articles, but it should not be used to suggest that Oxfordianism or any other non-standard theory of Shakespearian authorship has academic legitimacy. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The editor who inserts most of the material referenced by it happens also to be the editor of the journal, and such use smacks of WP:COI to me. There also was a reference to the journal's establishment in the main text, as if it were some actual historical event that related to the topic, which I have deleted as unnecessary newsletter detail. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Another off-point accusation? And wasn't it you, Tom, that argued for the inclusion of the Kathman website of which YOU are a contributor? In spite of the apparent hypocrisy, this seems to be an attempt to sway uninvolved editors. Shame on you.Smatprt (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You know how dishonest we Stratfordians are, Smatprt. We just can't help it, since we've been doing it for four centuries to protect our cushy academic jobs.

The truth is I just now thought of that objection, and I think it's valid. There's nothing off-point about it, just as there's nothing off-topic about bringing up that you promote Oxfordism at the expense of Misplaced Pages's reputation at every opportunity, as anyone who bothers to check your posting and block history knows. And I've never referenced the one article on Dave's website that I wrote, in contrast to Stritmatter, who never loses an opportunity to insert a reference into any article that mentions Shakespeare. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Akhilleus, and for stepping into this ugly fray. In response to your final sentence "Still, it may be that this periodical can be cited in Misplaced Pages articles, but it should not be used to suggest that Oxfordianism or any other non-standard theory of Shakespearian authorship has academic legitimacy", I think it should be noted that the issue here is whether the journal can be cited to explain Oxfordian views, which as Gruban noted above, should be allowed. As was noted "A source can be both reliable and biased. The article Shakespeare authorship question is specifically about the controversy, so it is a perfectly appropriate place where a journal published and reviewed by highly titled Oxfordians should be cited to explain Oxfordian views; it seems a perfectly reliable source for that branch of scholarship." Smatprt (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The issue here was WP:PARITY and both your and Schoenbaum's zany idea that Brief Chronciles fell under 'peer reviewed journals with high standards'. It is nothing of the sort. It is as if Butlerites or Robert Graves fans produced a fanzine-journal to push the view that a woman, or Homer's daughter 'wrote' the Odyssey, and, holding the Martin Wests, Geoffrey Kirks and Erbses' of this world in contempt, reviewed each others contributions and made out this was a 'peer review' as that word is understood in serious scholarship. Such stuff could be harvested to document their dotty views, certainly, but not as the results of 'peer-reviewed' quality scholarship. Oxfordian stuff has nothing to do with scholarship, since it's fundamental premise, that the biographical fallacy is itself a fallacy (sheer blithering madness of method, in short), makes it wholly subjective and beyond the care and keep of anything by a subjective hermeneutics of suspicion that will always trump the known documentary record, and what can reasonable be inferred from it. Nishidani (talk) 12:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Youtube links used as reference

The subject of the appropriateness of using youtube videos comes up often, however there seems to be no bright line as to whether they shold be used or not. In the case of Patrick Wolff three youtube links depicting a chess match have been repeatedly (three times) added to the article despite the request to discuss why they are necessary and if they meet the narrow instances where youtube links can or should be used as a reliable source. Is this a case where the links should be used? Jezebel'sPonyo 14:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I thought they are really not to be inserted as inline links, personally I remove them on sight. If the only support there is for a comment is a video link that anyone can upload, perhaps the comment is not worth inserting. If it is from the subjects official site or a closely related issue then I sometimes move them to the external link section. Off2riorob (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Wait, Off2riorob, of course they can be reliable sources. There are official YouTube channels for some major news networks, and their items are reliable sources. Then there are some cases where an original movie can be an appropriate source, but indeed, the rest should go at first sight.

Ponyo, you might want to be a bit more specific. Are these video's reliably showing what is asserted, or not? I see there is a 'first' reference there, could the other three be supporting the first one? (I must say, it seems excessive, 4 references .. and if it is just showing the match, then one might want to check if the video is not in violation of copyright before considering if we should be here). --Dirk Beetstra 15:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

<edit conflict>The videos are not linked to an official youtube news channel and have no known copyright status. The reference for the chess game results was added by an uninvolved editor after I removed the youtube links. The youtube links were subsequesntly added back in to the article. As there is an alternative source for the info, and the copyright status for the videos is unknown, I see no reason why they should be included - especially if the editor repeatedly inserting the links will not discuss it on the article talk page. --Jezebel'sPonyo 15:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

In this specific case, however, the video of the chess mach was not posted to an official media channel. It is annonomously posted to the public channels by someone posting as "duckgeezer". We have no way to know if the video has been edited or manipulated, and so can not rely on it. We also need to consider WP:COPYRIGHT... in the case of an official media channel, the poster owns the copyright to the video, and so can legally release it on YouTube... that is not always the case on the public channels. To use "duckgeezer"'s video, we would need to establish that he holds the copyright to this video. If he does not, then he violates the law by posting it to YouTube, and we violate the law by linking to it. Blueboar (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

First, we need to establish if the video is even relevant to the article. What are the videos supposed to be showing that adds to the article? Second, we have to establish that the uploader is the copyright holder, because we don't link to copyright violations. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree but relevancy is not really the issue here as in this case the referenced material was totally relevant. In the case of copyright holder this reference did a major fail and cannot be a allowed. At least when I provided a youtube link in the Land of Confusion article I made sure within all reason that it was provided by the copyright holder before ever using it (see the Talk:Land_of_Confusion on this). We really need a better youtube policy as based on shown in User talk:TheEditor22 another editor got banned for using sock puppetry to keep what was a RS that a another editor who if it is the same Insider I am dealing with has a long history of COI issues regarding certain articles kept removing (which if I am understanding WP:IGNORE and WP:IAR? correctly was in a gray area).--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Should you delete any article which does not have reliable sources?

I wrote an article on a little known Scottish band called Iron horse. To my surprise, the article is marked with Notability.

I read about the Notability guidelines and I am puzzled. I don't have anytihng to do with the Iron Horse Group. I just love their music. It may be that the music lovers highly appreciate this band. But there is no way to tell. They are next to unknown over the Internet. The band retired in 2001.

What can I do to meet the Notability requirements in this case? Can you really decide that the article is not worth being there based on the lack of sources? What if the quality of their art justifies the article by itself? Or who can be the judge of that

thanks Alfred

Yup. Without reliable sources, we don't know if anything stated in the article is even true. Plus, we don't have articles on anything people do. Notability guidelines were established to avoid every garage band, game made up at school one day, and self-published novel doesn't have an article on Misplaced Pages. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Who can Judge? ... not you or me (or any other editor on wikipedia)... this is why we require reference reliable secondary sources. They are the only reliable judge.

What can you do to meet the Notablility requirements? Find reliable secondary sources that mention the band. Blueboar (talk) 15:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's one. "Living Tradition CD review of The Iron Horse - Five Hands High", Alex Monaghan, Living Tradition magazine, issue 7. I'm not a music expert, but Living Tradition claims to be "a full colour, bi-monthly Folk & Traditional music magazine that has been in publication for over 15 years" which would tend to meet our standards. You want a few more like this. --GRuban (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

As side note just to spare you any other issues make sure the article is in the main area of expertise (in this case music) as article outside that area may not quality even though it is publisher itself is reliable. Also note that journal articles on one main topic may have related sub topics that it talks about to prove its main topic point and these can have issues.

I would also like to add that the notability requirement is being misused by some editors in reference to articles in otherwise WP:RS publications ie the dreaded 'other articles don't mention this article so even though it is in a reliable publication (or even a peer reviewed journal) it is not notable' sillyness. I would like see a formal change to stop that nonsense.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok. I have enough info to try to make the article better. But I do need to mention one think, which is not "yes, but..." thing. I appreciate the answers you've given me. I only want to point out that in the case of a band like Iron Horse, it is not the numbers of articles about the band that makes the band notable. It is the intrinsic value of their art, their music is what makes Iron Horse a notable band in the history of music. So, if you agree with that, I would like to argue that an article on Misplaced Pages about a notable band, is meets automatically the notability criteria. Question remaining, how do you know the band is notable? That was the direction of my original question. I would like to have your opinion on that too but in the meantim I will go back to the article and try to improve on it. Thanks

The way we decide the encyclopedic "value" of a subject (the dividing line, whether the subject should have an article devoted to it) is described in Misplaced Pages:Notability. The basic rule is whether independent reliable sources have significantly covered it. In other words, we anonymous volunteer editors don't directly decide for ourselves whether a subject is worthy of coverage, we look to see if others have decided so, and we go with that decision. Otherwise we would have arguments over "the intrinsic value of their art" between someone who likes Celtic music, and others who think media containing it should carry a warning label. --GRuban (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Encyclopedia.com/High Beam research

Please see George E. Terwilleger. Is that link to encyclopedia.com a reliable source? Woogee (talk) 05:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• It provides the archived article from the Dayton Daily News. I'd say yes. I formatted the ref properly. I don't like these kind of articles. Someone just puts it up there because the guy technically passes WP:POLITICIAN, but really doesn't know crap about them. So it's a stub that never gets expanded because the guy is basically not that notable. Niteshift36 (talk) 06:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Habrahabr.ru

It this a reliable source for IT articles? As far as I can tell it's a blog hosting service with some digg-like and slashdot-like elements, i.e. the ability to vote on stories and accumulate karma. It's a bit different than slashdot, because blogs are individual, e.g. . As far as I can tell, the individual blogs all are WP:SPS, and the editorial oversight is rather hard to ascertain because it comes from anonymized votes. So, the blogs hosted there need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis: if the author a blog hosted there is a well-known authority that has published in that field elsewhere, then it's a reliable source, otherwise I think not. (FYI: AfDs where it was invoked: Evilwm, Kohana (web framework)Wmii, but for the latter two there are other sources.) Thoughts? Pcap ping 06:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I would say no as there is no way to really check on most blogs if a person is who they say they are. At least with self-published authors you have a clear reference and if they are favorably cited in enough WP:RS material you can build a case for them being considered experts in a topic but that is hard enough.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It's simple. HH.ru have personal and themed blogs. Created article belongs to personal blog. After it get some karma points(summ of all plus and minus votes), author can move article to themed blog(such as i_am_clever or kohanaphp). It means what article is reliable. Also, for old articles, you can see a summ of all votes. In ] - +24, which means what it is undoubtedly reliable. My personal meaning: 5<x<15 - normal article, 16<x<30 - reliable article, 31<x<50 - very very good aticle, 51<x - awesome article. 80.70.236.61 (talk)

I think you may be confusing "reliability" with "popularity". It seems the voting system you describe is for determining the latter, not the former. —Psychonaut (talk) 13:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems the reliability criterion are not correct for open source software, If you were IT-specialist you understand that in opensource world notability equals popularity in blogs, forums, howtos and distros, see discussion about Dwm. Are you programmer? If no, it is quite sad that incompetent people judge opensourse enthusiast and, e.g., scienologists, in the same manner. Why there is no special rules for FOSS, based on the same idea that Misplaced Pages based on? And I see that you do not understand it. Do you prefer read commerce articles in magazines feeding from Microsoft? What else do you need to understand notability=popularity? Did you follow presented link? Habrahabr and linux.org are the great tool to measure popularity=notability of FOSS project. I would like to know what are the possible way to write special notability criterion for FOSS, cause now it is not right at all, and the last deletion "discussions" shows it. Mclaudt (talk) 21:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Linux.org.ru

Another Russian IT site invoked in AfDs (e.g. Dwm). If the unsourced Misplaced Pages article about it is to be believed, it operates just like slashdot, i.e. accepts user submitted stories with some moderation. Reliable source? Pcap ping 06:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• From my point of view linux.org.ru is russian variant of slashdot. So we should treat its reliability on the same basis as we do with slashdot. 77.35.27.153 (talk) 15:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Article name changes post-publication

I do not know why The Economist changes (apparently all of) their article names, renaming them from the original hard-print publication title to an online version. Does anyone know, and how should these articles be cited? Example:

• Venezuela's curious coup, The Economist, 2009-06-11 "ON APRIL 11th 2002 nearly a million people marched on the presidential palace in Caracas, the capital of Venezuela, to demand the ousting of Hugo Chávez, the elected president whom they accused of undermining democracy and causing the creeping “Cubanisation” of the country. As they neared the palace, violence broke out, 19 people were killed and over 150 wounded.…"
  • "Venezuela's curious coup" was renamed to "Riddle wrapped in a mystery"; how would that article be correctly cited, to reflect differences in the hard-print and online versions, and what is going on here? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

On a related matter, how should we cite a source when the publisher changes its name over time? Should we cite the original publisher name, under which the source was first published, or the new publisher name, if the name changed after the source was published ? Sample, Naval Historical Center changed to Naval History & Heritage Command, effective 1 December 2008 (see bottom of this page). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

We should WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT... if you got the information from the dead tree version (with the dead tree title) that is what you should cite, and if you got it from the on-line version (with the on-line title) that is what you should cite. This is especially important if there are differences... as it enables other editors know which version verifies the information stated in the article. Of course, if the differences are significant, this might be grounds for questioning the reliability of the information (we would need to look into why there is a difference... is one a correction of the other? etc.).

As for publisher's changing their names, I would add a parenthesis: <ref> Author Name, Source Title, Source Publisher Name (now: New Publisher Name), date, page. etc.</ref> Same thing when we source to reprints of old books... we should cite the reprint info, and note the original publication info in a parenthesis: <ref> Author, Title, Reprint publisher, date of reprint (originally published by Orignial Publisher, original date), page, etc. </ref> Blueboar (talk) 17:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Blueboar. So, at the bottom of this edit, since I got it from an online version title "Riddle wrapped in a mystery",

• RIDDLE WRAPPED IN A MYSTERY
• Jun 11th 2009
• ON APRIL 11th 2002 nearly a million people marched on the presidential palace in Caracas, the capital of Venezuela, to demand the ousting of Hugo Chavez, ...

I should change that title ... but ... the online link still goes to "Venezuela's curious coup". I don't know how to resolve this? Should I somehow indicate both titles? I'm most curious about why The Economist consistently does this-- on every article, as far as I can tell, so it's not a matter of corrections. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

My guess would be that the editing process for the article at some point splits into two parallel processes, one for print and one for online. This would further imply that there might be changes in the text itself, strengthening the already strong case for rigorous adherence to WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Incidentally, I can't in all honesty think of another plausible reason - Riddle wrapped in a mystery is a worse headline from a SEO point of view and probably less intelligible to non-native-English-speakers, and there is no great difference in the length of the two headlines. (Length and the desire for attractive line breaks are significant factors in print headline writing that don't apply to such an extent online.) Barnabypage (talk) 20:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, now you have confused me... when I click on the link, I get the title "Venezuela's currious coup"... which you say is also the print edition title (unless I am misreading you). Where does the "Riddle" title come from? Blueboar (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I was afraid that would happen :) I'm trying to find another example, that shows it more clearly. When you click on the link, you get one title, when you access the full online text, you get the other at the top of the article, and on some older articles (need to access one of them as an example for you), you get both, as if one of them was added as a byline. We may not get to the bottom of this without me taking a trip to the library. In the older case (which I can't locate right now, it mattered because you had the search on the new title ... very confusing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll ping DGG to see if he can shed light here (isn't he a librarian? unsure). But for example, when I cited this article years ago, it was listed as "Venezuela: Mission Impossible", but now it comes up under "Poverty in Venezuela" ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

OK... I think I get it. I would say all of this can be clarified by using a parenthetical mentioning the various titles. If there is a significant difference between the versions, it does not really matter which is used as the "main" citation. If there is a significant difference, then apply SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT as best you can. Blueboar (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

On a related note: When an online document lists a publisher, and the publisher thereafter changes its name (but not the name on the document), what should be listed: the old name, the new name, or both? In HMS Calliope (1884) I cited to two online documents, last revised in 2002, on the website of the “Naval Historical Center” of the US Department of the Navy. That center has since changed its name to the “Naval History and Heritage Command”, and has expressed a preference that it now be referred to by that name. See bottom of this page. (That refers to images, but there does not seem to be any reason why it would not apply to texts from that source.) The articles I used were first published under the old name, bear the old name, and have not been modified since. They however are continuously published by their presence on the website of the renamed entity. I have listed both names now—is there a right or wrong answer here? Kablammo (talk) 18:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

My call... list either the original or both. The key is ensure that someone can find the same version of the source that you saw. Blueboar (talk) 19:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

In most news sources, the person who write the article does not write the headline. This can be the result of deliberate emphasis: recent issues of the Wall Street Journal seem to have headlines giving a more conservative view that the actual news reports. In many publications there can sometimes even be two titles: a headline written by the executive editors, and a title written by the reporter; sometimes this is presented as a title and subtitle--the title is meant to catch attention, the subtitle to describe the contents. (This is a common practice with book titles as well). Sometimes I've seen a title from Associated Press or other news service, and above it a title from the reprinting newspaper. And this occurs in unexpected places also. Nature has had the practice of supplementing the actual title of an article with a headline, over which the authors have no say. Sometimes the table of contents of a publication to bear a different title than the actual article.

In academic fields, we usually go with the title that the indexing services use, but I've sometimes seen Scopus and Web of Science have different titles for an article.

In librarianship, we have a simple rule: we transcribe whatever happens to be on the title page in the position where a title is usually found. If, say, the cover of the book has a different title, which is not rare, we optionally transcribe it also.

For Misplaced Pages I would modify Blueboar's rule, and include whatever titles I conveniently could find. If I knew there were two, I'd use both. If I had just seen the print, I wouldn't search to see if the online was different. If I had just seen the online, and it indicated the print had a different title, I'd add it--if not indicated, I wouldn't go looking to see if it is the case. DGG ( talk ) 19:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. This is one reason why I prefer the <ref>...</ref> format for citations over templates. It allows you to be flexible when dealing with complex citations and adapt the standard formats to meet the requirements of the situation. A good rule of thumb... when it comes to citations, it is better to give too much info than not enough. Blueboar (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

So, is the correct summary to both of my questions here that we should indicate both in both cases? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I would say so. Blueboar (talk) 21:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

There's also the problem that headlines (and entire articles) are sometimes tweaked across "early" and "late" editions. I presume online versions tend to match the latest edition (sometimes incorporating errata from days or months later).--Father Goose (talk) 21:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

DGG, is the "both names" rule common in your profession? Do you update the 'card catalog' every time an author's name changes, e.g., due to marriage or divorce? Or is it still Mary Smith, because that's what the book says, rather than Mary Jones, which is what her friends call her? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a librarian, but the book is still by Mary Smith, until Mary Jones (if she cares to call herself that in print) chooses to have a new edition come out as the product of Mary Jones. And if that does happen then the older copies are still by Smith; only the redesigned ones are by Jones. It seems to me that most women who publish under their maiden names continue to use those names after marriage. Transsexuals (etc) are more interesting; books that were by James Morris are republished (if they're republished at all) as by Jan Morris, but my copy of a book by James Morris is by James and not Jan Morris. And if it was published by Harcourt Brace Jovanovich then this is how I cite it, regardless of Harcourt (and Brace?)'s later divorce from Mr Jovanovich and marriages with Messrs World, Reed, Elsevier, Houghton and Mifflin. Morenoodles (talk) 09:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Is the International Amateur Radio Union a reliable source for information about member societies?

The International Amateur Radio Union is an international society of long existence, with member societies which must be recognized national organizations, and they only recognize one organization per nation. Member societies typically existed prior to membership in the IARU, and some member societies have existed for more than eighty years. The member societies are legally independent. The IARU is managed by the American Radio Relay League, probably because the ARRL is the largest member society.

Some years ago, a decision at AfD resulted in the creation of stubs for member societies of the IARU, based solely on such membership (which demonstrates that a particular society is national in scope), and listing by the IARU, with pointers to the member society, as well as reference in publications of the IARU, is arguably an "independent reliable source" (the IARU being legally and in fact independent from the member society, except arguably the ARRL).

Two factors, national scope and independent source for verification may create sufficient notability for a stub, that is already the guideline at WP:CLUB, and stubs appear to me to be the best solution for organization of information about the member societies in this case (there are other alternatives, of course, including lists in the article on the international organization, but that was not consensus, and the large bulk of member societies have stubs). However, a process of AfDing these stubs has begun, on the basis of lack of notability. The lack of notability claim hinges on a position that the IARU description of the members is not a "independent source."

It appears that !voting in the AfDs generally favors keeping the articles, but the very same arguments are repeated over and over and over. It would be better to have some global clarification, so that editors don't waste time pursuing alternatives with a pile of individual decisions that go one way or the other depending on who notices the AfD.

National scope is considered an important factor in the notability of nonprofit organizations, see WP:CLUB, and recognition by a notable international organization would seem to meet the minimal additional requirement for a stub: independent notice.

Hence the question (and a similar question could be asked about national member societies in any international and legally independent organization):

Is the IARU an "independent source" for the purposes of determining notability of national member societies? There is no controversy over the use of information from the IARU in articles, other than this. Some member societies have sufficient "outside" mention that has been found to qualify them for individual articles on that basis, but there is a problem that such notice in publications outside the field of amateur radio, which can be expected to exist somewhere for all these member societies, is typically in local languages, would mostly be very old, and is difficult to find, particularly under the gun of an AfD. (For example, the Hong Kong Amateur Radio Transmitting Society is about eighty years old.) If the combination of national scope and the minimum notability represented by IARU recognition and listing is adequate for a stub with fully verifiable and trustworthy information, there would be no need to defend each and every member society based on claims on individual non-notability, reducing unproductive disruption at AfD. The decision whether or not to collect information in the article on the international society or to use stubs would then properly be made by editors at the international society article, the article on the umbrella organization.

This does not apply to simple "members" or especially "chapters" of international organizations. It only applies to member societies which are national in scope; these national members are legally independent and they are not established by the international society; rather, they apply for membership after they have been established. Recognition, I suggest, is "notice." And this only applies, as well, to notable international organizations, fully qualified on the basis of independent sources for their own articles.

There exist stubs on individual amateur radio clubs that would not be protected from AfD by this clearer understanding, such as clubs affiliated with the national member societies. These clubs are not national in scope, generally. --Abd (talk) 18:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Disclosure: I proposed a change to WP:ORG at , and this is being contested there based apparently on a claim that such international organizations would not be a reliable source for information about member national societies. Some of this may be based on a misunderstanding about legal independence, but because there is a sourcing issue, I've brought this here, and I'll notify participants there of this discussion. --Abd (talk) 18:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• I would say that the IARU is a reliable source for the fact that its member organizations exist and are members of the IARU. However, I don't think it can be used to establish that those member organizations are notable under WP:ORG, which states: "An organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." I would not consider IARU to be sufficiently "independent" of its 162 member organizations as to give it the authority to determine that its members are all notable. I would also disagree in part with the comment above that states: "Some member societies have sufficient "outside" mention that has been found to qualify them for individual articles on that basis, but there is a problem that such notice in publications outside the field of amateur radio, which can be expected to exist somewhere for all these member societies, is typically in local languages, would mostly be very old, and is difficult to find, particularly under the gun of an AfD. (For example, the Hong Kong Amateur Radio Transmitting Society is about eighty years old.)" I would allow discussion of the member societies published in magazines devoted to amateur radio to be used as sources to establish notability for the society, as long as the magazine was not itself published by the particular society or by the IARU. Also, there is no reason to think that such coverage (regardless of what kind of publication it was in) would be very old. After all, if the HKARTS is about 80 years old, that means that such coverage could have taken place any time between the 1930s and the present day. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. From what I've seen, whenever the IARU recognizes a society, which is by vote of existing members of the society, in which the applying society is, of course, not represented, it is an independent recognition, independently published. Currently, it seems, these decisions are covered, at least, in QST, which is published by the ARRL, not the IARU. HARTS has almost certainly been covered, as an example, in other independent sources, over the eighty years, but, contrary to what's been asserted in these AfDs, it is far from easy to find those. Someone local could do it, though, someone with access to local archives and libraries. While there is some benefit to the articles from the threat of deletion, most of those who would have access to resources don't even see the AfD; I've now spent some hours on research and have found only a little on-line, and I'll say that, as well, I've never been much motivated to improve articles under AfD, too many times I've succeeded, found sources, and then the AfD closed as Delete anyway, my time was wasted. What's my one !vote? Basically, the combination of national scope and IARU recognition practically guarantees that some other sources exist. That recognition is about as close to "inherent notability" as I can imagine. I can't fathom a local or national newspaper that would not report it, if they became aware of it.

The issue here is whether or not the IARU is a reliable source for information about its members. On the fact of membership, I'd claim, it is thoroughly and completely reliable. It is relatively reliable in about everything else. I thank Metropolitan90 for the opinion about "publications devoted to amateur radio," because, with time, this will resolve the issue, especially through QST, and there are other such publications around the world. Where I disagree is in the apparent opinion that the IARU is not independent. The IARU is managed by the ARRL, which is an independent organization itself. Admission to the IARU takes a supermajority vote of the national members, I just looked at two 2009 decisions (reported in the IARU newsletter); the vote for those two new members was 72 and 73 votes out of 73 voting, with one abstention on one new member. This is independent recognition ("notice"), independently published, of a national organization, and it would be so even if the member could vote. --Abd (talk) 20:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• No, and I also don't think that Apple, Inc.'s recognition of the legally separate Apple Canada, Inc., counts as an "independent" source for Apple Canada, or that the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies is an "independent" source for information about its national members (often highly reliable, but not actually idependent). I'd say the same thing about husbands and wives, or parents and their children.
  But Abd already knows that I don't think that IARU's recognition of its members is 'independent', and that's why the question has been brought here: we would benefit from as many responses as possible. Please consider replying, even if you might normally skip this one on the grounds that the 'right' answer seems to have appeared.
  I also want to say that I wish these IARU members hadn't been nom'd for deletion in the first place, because even though IARU isn't (IMO) an independent source, I suspect that at least the majority do meet the independent sourcing requirements at WP:ORG -- just not, unfortunately, with sources that can be quickly found with your favorite web search engine. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment with agreement. Thanks, WhatamIdoing. Agreement first. Yes, other comment here will be extremely valuable. Please comment. My view is that, if there isn't a clear consensus here or at WP:CLUB, the matter will be decided at Talk:International Amateur Radio Union, possibly with an RfC. --Abd (talk) 02:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment with partial agreement. These societies are almost certainly notable based on unarguably independent reliable source, that is due to the nature of recognition of a single national society by a highly notable international body that you can't just join by sending in your dues. The problem is finding the sources, and since it is so highly likely that sources exist, and since all that is being suggested is a consideration that international recognition, combined with national scope, establishes sufficient notability to allow a stub, and since this does not open the door to content any wider than is already open, it would seem, at worst, harmless. There has been no claim that the IARU can't be cited for information about its members. There has, in fact, been no claim that official web sites of member societies cannot be cited. Obviously, the latter cannot be used to establish notability, it is only the former that is in question. --Abd (talk) 02:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment with disagreement. Apple has nothing to do with this. The guideline under discussion refers to "noncommercial organizations." The IFRCRCS, however, is relevant. When that international organization recognizes a member, it is, at that point, independent, both organizations exist separately, and have separate control of their own activities. But the general case is a red herring here (though not at WP:CLUB). The question is specific, about the IARU and national member societies (which not uncommonly predate the IARU itself). There can be and have been competing national societies. The IARU will only recognize one per nation, and such competing societies have apparently merged on occasion in order to become fully national-scope and eligible for membership. Or in other cases, it seems -- I'm still researching all this -- one society was considered so predominant that it was recognized. --Abd (talk) 02:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• It depends what you mean by reliable source. It is reliable for facts about the organisations, but it lacks independence and is usually not a secondary source so there is no way that being recognised by this organisation would confer any kind of notability on a member society. The general notability guideline applies: the individual society articles would require multiple non-trivial independent (secondary) sources, of which this would not be one. Most of them will have been, I'm sure. Guy (Help!) 23:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Can consensus reached here be ignored by experts in a subject

There is a discussion above -- Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Journal of Genetic Genealogy where an editor has said "As Andrew says, any consensus reached here can and will be ignored by editors familiar with the material". I have always understood that talk page consensus cannot trump policy, and I assume that means that talk page consensus can't overrule consensus here. Note I'm not saying there is a consensus here, this is just a question of principal for me at the moment, although I think the point at issue is also an important point of princple. Dougweller (talk) 09:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I've read the discussion above. It sounds like a terminal case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. A topic ban on WP:AN seems in order. 85.204.164.26 (talk) 13:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Doug, you should know that consensus here is not something that can be enforced. This is not an arbitration pannel. Yes, you are likely to get well informed opinions on how the RS guideline and other polices should be interpreted and applied to a partiular source in a particular article, but that is it. This notice board does not "Trump" anything. What "trumps" local consenus is the guideline itself. Blueboar (talk) 18:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

One would hope that all editors take what is said here into consideration. Of course with strongly held beliefs regarding a single issue often a WP:RFC is a helpful next step.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll need to reword the question. If there is a clear consensus here, yet on the talk page of an article the editors there decide to ignore it, surely the next thing to do (in a hypothetical case, not the one above) is indeed to go elsewhere, possibly ANI? I know this is not an arbitration panel, but ArbCom doesn't normally deal with issues like this. How often are RfCs used to enforce policy/guidelines as opposed to simple content issues? If discussions here can simply be ignored we're just talking to ourselves. Dougweller (talk) 20:32, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Doug, I realize that this is probably just a theoretical discussion but I do think it reflects upon the real case at hand, or may be seen to (as shown by the IP reaction above!). The quote you cite by Din is being taken out of context. There was in fact no real consensus.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I've never said there was. I don't see one either. I'm interested here in the hypothetical, because it's a problem that exists elsewhere. Dougweller (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This RfC did manage to settle a many year dispute and avoided going to ARB. I will say that simple issues can hopefully be dealt with here but that for more intractable cases we are just talking to ourselves and going through the motions, proving that all measures have been attempted, before parties move to ANI / RFC / ARB.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

When editors ignore a clear consensus at RS/N, the next step is typically AN/I. Jayjg 01:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I would think that what happens more typically in cases like the one under discussion is that because the discussion itself has been so ill-informed, deliberately confused by an interested party, filled with personal attacks, vague accusations and emotive language; and consensus was so "called" quickly in an artificial way, that if anyone ever tried to use the ruling in the dozens of involved articles, there is the option of simply having a better discussion. The above case is part of one long personal attack in sheep's clothing. On his talk page User:Dbachmann explained to me, sympathetically with rudra, that rudra is worried about the use that people with "Aryan" theories about India use genetics articles, and that is on a mission to do something about that. I have asked him to explain how this fits with Misplaced Pages policy, and indeed which theories he thinks are dangerous, but I got no answer. As can be seen by looking at the discussion spread deliberately all over Misplaced Pages, Rudra does not want clear discussion with other editors he wants to over-rule and go in with "emergency powers". That's why he is here, and that is why he asked Dbachmann to block me for disagreeing with him and that is why his talkpage contributions on R1a are pure trolling and personal attack.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

FitzPatrick & Reynolds, False Profits

An editor is using the book False Profits as a source for several claims in the article on multi-level marketing. The book appears to be a "vanity publishing" book, with the publisher, "Herald Press" having the same address (1235-E East Blvd. #101, Charlotte NC 28203) as the authors "consumer advocate" organisation and website www.pyramidschemealert.org No other books appear to have been published by this publisher and the authors have no other RS publications in the field, his website has been previously rejected as an RS for the article. Comments appreciated. --Insider201283 (talk) 11:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you outline what is being asserted using this book as a source? Skeptics dictionary did a review BTW Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, Skeptic's Dictionary on this topic is another issue altogether. Carroll's articles on MLM and MLM companies like Amway are full of quite juvenile errors and misunderstandings of the industry (like claiming that generating wholesale sales through recruiting other distributors is dumb because it's "recruiting competitors" - yeah, so Coke should get rid of all those wholesale distribution channels and deal only with consumers!). Carroll refuses to even accept emails on the topics. Anyway, the claims the "False Profits" reference is to support (amongst other poorly supported POV claims, but one at a time) are that "Another criticism of MLMs are that MLMs ... are pyramid schemes ... and use..." the exploitation of personal relationships for financial gain". These are clearly controversial POV opinions and from an otherwise unnotable and non RS source have no place in wikipedia. --Insider201283 (talk) 20:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

One could change this too "Carroll criticizes MLMs for being pyramid schemes that exploitation personal relationships for financial gain" Lots of people criticize MLMs and these criticisms are notable.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

My apologies I was a little unclear in my response. The claims were from the False Profit book, not Carroll. I've not looked into the use of Carroll as a source for the article yet (it's there) but I'm not sure if it's notable in this area, given it's clearly an opinion piece and to the best of my knowledge he has no expertise in the area of business. In any case, for now I'm just concerned with the False Profit's book. Carroll's book has at least been published by a reputable publishing company, though I'm not sure if the Amway/MLM articles are in the published version. --Insider201283 (talk) 20:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes I agree that the source is poor. However we have better sources that also say that MLM is a pyramid scheme and that it exploits relationships for financial gain such as . Thus we have an easy solution. Replace this poor reference with a good reference. I have the complete copy to this article if needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Doc James, governments around the world all state that "pyramid schemes are illegal", yet they also state that multilevel marketing is legal. Any source that says MLMs are pyramid schemes are either (a) saying they are illegal, which is not true, or (b) saying pyramid schemes can be legal, which is also not true. Clearly any such source is, virtually by definition, not reliable. With regards the metapress.com link, it unfortunately doesn't work without the login. Which article are you referring to? There's two I found through a search for "multilevel marketing", one on "internal consumption" and one on "socialization" . I have both papers and neither of them support the claims, indeed both explicitly note that MLMs are NOT pyramid schemes. --Insider201283 (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

My apologies, I see now you mean the "internal consumption" paper as a source for the fact that some critics of MLM believe them to be pyramid schemes? It's certainly usable for that. --Insider201283 (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

CRITICISMS OF MULTILEVEL MARKETING MLM is without question controversial. Millions of people are positively disposed toward MLM as judged by the number of MLM distributors and MLM sales. Simultaneously, count- less individuals, through publications, blogs, and Web sites, vehemently criticize MLM. MLM practitioners in particular have been criticized for alleged unethical behavior that includes misrepresenting earning potentials, pressuring friendsand relatives to become distributors or purchase unneeded or unwanted products and services, and using deceptive recruit-ing tactics (e.g., Bloch 1996; Koehn 2001).

As will be discussed, the existence of internal consumption in the context of MLM is viewed by critics of MLM as primafacie evidence of an unethical and perhaps illegal pyramid scheme.

Title:On the Ethicality of Internal Consumption in Multilevel Marketing Source:The Journal of Personal Selling & Sales Management Peterson yr:2007 vol:27 iss:4 pg:317

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

<-That's a pretty decent summary of the issues, shame we can't just cut and paste it :) It obviously needs rewording and additional sources. I think I have the two sources he cites, as well as many other academic articles, however I haven't read them all yet. At present I'm just trying to clear out the POV and poor sources currently being pushed. --Insider201283 (talk) 00:17, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

As long as we provide a reference and it seem to be a reasonable size quote way can't we directly quote it? I use Carl (2004)'s direct quote from the Western Journal of Communication complete with inline citation after all. Or is it because you have issues with Carter 1999 being part of the direct quote?--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:SPS specifically deals with material published by vanity presses, which appears to be the case here. Is either author "an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."? Jayjg 01:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

(remove indent) Something similar to this was this was kicked around in Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_1#When_does_an_person_become_enough_of_an_expert_that_we_can_used_his_self-published_material.3F. The list provided in that thread regarding Taylor and Fitzpatrick was as follows:

Carl, Walter J. (2002) "Organizational Legitimacy As Discursive Accomplishment in Multilevel Marketing Discourse" Organizational Communication Division of the National Communications Association conference Nov 21-24, 2002. (uses FitzPatrick's book False Profits as a reference)

Carl, Walter J. (2004) "The Interactional Business of Doing Business: Managing Legitimacy and Co-constructing Entrepreneurial Identities in E-Commerce Multilevel Marketing Discourse" Western Journal of Communication, Vol. 68.

Cruz, Joan Paola; Camilo Olaya (2008) "A System Dynamics Model for Studying the Structure of Network Marketing Organizations" Requirements of System Dynamics conference papers for the 2007 conference papers were as follows: "Papers may be submitted from January 2, 2007 to March 26, 2007 and must be in sufficient detail for the referees to judge their meaning and value. Submissions must be in English and should be 5 - 30 pages in length (there is also a maximum 2 MB electronic file size). Abstracts will not be accepted. Submission of models and other supporting materials to enable replication and aid the review process is encouraged in all cases (maximum file size 2 MB in addition to the paper). All works submitted will be assigned for double blind peer review. The results, with the oversight of the program chairs, will determine whether a work will be accepted, and the presentation format for the work."

Higgs, Philip and Jane Smith (2007) Rethinking Our World Juta Academic uses MLM Watch website as well as Fitzpatrick as references. "Juta is respected as South Africa's pre-eminent academic and law publisher".

Koehn, Daryl (2001) "Ethical Issues Connected with Multi-Level Marketing Schemes" Journal of Business Ethics 29:153-160.

Pareja, Sergio, (2008) "Sales Gone Wild: Will the FTC's Business Opportunity Rule Put an End to Pyramid Marketing Schemes?" McGeorge Law Review, Vol. 39, No. 83. ("student-run, scholarly journal published on a quarterly basis" by University of the Pacific)

Terry Sandbek, Ph.D. Brain Typing: The Pseudoscience of Cold Reading Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology uses both Taylor and FitzPatrick

Woker, TA (2003) "If It Sounds Too Good to Be True It Probably Is: Pyramid Schemes and Other Related Frauds" South African Mercantile Law Journal 15: 237

Wong, Michelle. A. (2002) "China's Direct Marketing Ban: A Case Study of China's Response to Capital-Based Social Networks" Pacific Rim Law & Policy Journal

The issue of how much and often someone has to be sited in reliable sources to be considered an expert was never really addressed.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I should mention that the "MLM organizations have been described by some as cults (Butterfield, 1985), pyramid schemes (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997), or organizations rife with misleading, deceptive, and unethical behavior (Carter, 1999), such as the questionable use of evangelical discourse to promote the business (Hopfl & Maddrell, 1996), and the exploitation of personal relationships for financial gain (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997)." part is an exact quote of Carl's Western Journal of Communication article and is repeated verbatim (without the inline references) in Phillip G. Clampitt's Communicating for managerial effectiveness 3rd edition (2004) Sage Publications on pg 667. I used the Carl reference as it is clearly more informative--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:30, 27 February 2010 (UTC).

College newspapers

What are peoples thoughts on the reliability of The Daily Collegian and Collegiate Times, used in Michael Peter Woroniecki. I haven't read every article yet, but I'm thinking that they are possibly acceptable for reporting events that occurred on campus, but not external events. I'm trying to clean up a major NPOV issue, and this guidance would be useful before I start. Kevin (talk) 23:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

College newspapers do have editorial oversight, though the amount and quality of such oversight will vary wildly depending on the paper. I'd say they're fine for non-controversial claims. Jayjg 01:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much what I thought. I don't think there is a single non-controversial aspect to Woroniecki, so I'm going to have to find better ones. Kevin (talk) 10:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

In this working paper and later a book (The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy), Walt and Mearsheimer are critical of what they see as the extension of the "Israel lobby" dominating public discourse. In regards to the Washington Institute for Near East Policy they claim "Although WINEP plays down its links to Israel and claims that it provides a 'balanced and realistic' perspective on Middle East issues, this is not the case... Its board of advisers...includes no one who might be thought of as favoring the perspective of any country or group in the 'Near East.' Many of its personnel are genuine scholars or experienced former officials, but they are hardly neutral observers on most Middle East issues and there is little diversity of views within WINEP’s ranks."

I believe that the authors' critical opinion can be cited as just that--and for a long time this has been in the criticism section of the WINEP article. In searching around other articles that cite it it is always cited as the authors' viewpoints (Max Boot, Saban Center) and placed in the criticism or dispute section. An editor now seems to believe it is okay to include the authors' viewpoint as a part of the article's neutral text, even though the article has a criticism section. --Shamir1 (talk) 06:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Walt and Mearsheimer's report should only be cited for Walt and Mearsheimer's opinion; it's a notable minority view, but definitely not reliable for neutral factual sourcing due to the controversies over its accuracy. THF (talk) 06:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I suspected. --Shamir1 (talk) 06:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the book is currently being cited in the body of the article as Walt & Mearsheimer's opinion, just as THF suggests. The full excerpt from the current article is:

However, John Mearsheimer, a University of Chicago political science professor, and Stephen Walt, academic dean at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government, describe it as "part of the core" of the Israel lobby in the United States. Discussing the group in their book, The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, Mearsheimer and Walt write: "Although WINEP plays down its links to Israel and claims that it provides a 'balanced and realistic' perspective on Middle East issues, this is not the case. In fact, WINEP is funded and run by individuals who are deeply committed to advancing Israel’s agenda... Many of its personnel are genuine scholars or experienced former officials, but they are hardly neutral observers on most Middle East issues and there is little diversity of views within WINEP’s ranks."

It is in no way being described as a neutral fact - only their opinion.← George 06:51, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Sourcing RFC at RAF Rudloe Manor

I'd be grateful if we could get some opinions on the RFC at Talk:RAF_Rudloe_Manor#Notability_and_suitability_of_sources, which relates to another users desire to use two primary sources, documents from The National Archives, in support of his assertions. These are File:PROVOST.gif and File:GOVTDO3.gif There is also a notability issue, is the section within a larger Headquarters worthy of being singled out for discussion in the article.

Thanks

ALR (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Bedford School

I have a question about a source of some information on a article about a school. The question revolves around a claim of a case of arson at the school (for the record I am not connected to the school in any way).

Some Background :

The article as I cam across it refereed to a "arson" in 1979 without any ref - there were (and are) photos showing a fire so I first taged then after 2 weeks changed to to fire. An editor Toddy1 came up with two refs 25th Anniversary of Bedford School’s Great Fire, March 2004 and An interview with Mr Simms, who celebrated 50 years with Bedford School this week, November 2009. one which says fire and one that says arson and reverted the article back to arson.

I reverted the article back to fire with this edit stating that : as the refs provided are WP:PRIMARY and one says "fire" and the one that says "arson" does not elaborate on the reason for claiming it was arson

Now an ip editor 20.133.0.13 is claiming that they are not WP:PRIMARY and I miss understand what a WP:PRIMARY source is (see this post to user page) as the passage of time makes this a secondary source.

So to my question :

1. Is anything a organisation says about it's self ever not WP:PRIMARY ? does the passage of time change it?

2. Is the school website a WP:RS about the fire and calling it arson ? Codf1977 (talk) 13:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

My quick reaction would be to say that the school Website is a RS in saying that there was a fire, but not in terming it arson - distinguishing arson from an accidental fire is not part of the usual expertise of schoolteachers! However, Google throws up lots of other sources for it being arson so I'm sure you can find something better. For example try this one from the local authority, which references a fire service document. Barnabypage (talk) 14:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Think that is the best one - shame it looks like a visit to the record office is needed to find out what is in the clipping and what paper it came from. I do think on balance it was probably arson - will keep looking though for a WP:RS untill then will keep it at just fire Codf1977 (talk) 14:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

You deleted arson, demanding a source. I found a source. But you still edit war over it. I do not see how you can stretch the definition of primary source to cover the source.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• The website of the school is a primary source. There's no "stretching" of the definition needed. If that isn't obvious to you, try reading WP:PRIMARY and see if that clears it up for you. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Uninvolved. is a reliable source for the statement that it was Arson. Hipocrite (talk) 20:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

reliable. Hipocrite (talk) 22:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree the National Archives are reliable - however it only says "man guilty of setting fire to Bedford School" - it does not say arson. Codf1977 (talk) 07:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you aware of what Arson is? Hipocrite (talk) 11:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes intentionally and maliciously setting fire to structures - I don't have any knowledge of this case - but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the crown was unable to prove arson and the person was convicted of a lesser charge. As I have said before I think it probably was arson - but probably does not hack it when it comes to an encyclopaedia. The only thing we know for sure is there was a fire and someone was convicted in relation to that fire, we do not know what he was convicted of. Codf1977 (talk) 12:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

We know for sure. There is no doubt in any reasonable person's mind that it is arson. Hipocrite (talk) 16:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Moot point (see below) but I am at a loss to see how you can be sure with the sources provided. Codf1977 (talk) 17:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you are being unreasonable.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)