Misplaced Pages

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This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 1 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Amusing

Oh dear, more flame bait, but I could not help a wry smile at this:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=Jimbo+Wales&group=&limit=1
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=Larry+Sanger&group=&limit=1

Did Larry have a previous account or did he "co-found" Misplaced Pages six months after it started? Guy (Help!) 22:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Account creation dates from before (IIRC) 2005 or so are unreliable. Note that his first edit predates the supposed creation of his account by almost a year. --Carnildo (talk) 02:17, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Both Jimmy and Larry's first edits were made using CamelCase usernames, JimboWales (talk · contribs) and LarrySanger (talk · contribs). Jimbo's earliest surviving edit was made on 23 January 2001 while Larry's earliest surviving edit was made on 21 January 2001. Both accounts were abandoned before Misplaced Pages started using a MySQL database in January 2002, so they weren't listed in the new database until vandals created them. After Larry abandoned the "LarrySanger" account, he started using an account named "Larry_Sanger; an example of an edit by him under that username is this edit. Edits made by a user with an underline in their account name cannot be accessed through the user contributions feature per bug 323. Larry didn't use a space in his username until January 2002, hence the account creation date given by Special:Listusers in the above link. The edits in his contributions list that appear before that date are as a result of importing edits from the Nostalgia Misplaced Pages, a copy of the Misplaced Pages database from 20 December 2001. Even though most edits by Larry appear under the username "Larry_Sanger" at that site, the import tool automatically converts underlines to spaces so the edits appear under the name "Larry Sanger" here. Graham87 12:25, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Guarding against astroturfing of Misplaced Pages by Pharmaceuticals

Dear Jimbo,

Do you regard Misplaced Pages as vulnerable to astroturfing by pharmaceutical companies? Perhaps I haven't looked in the right places, but I've seen surprisingly little if any on-wiki discussion about this very real danger, and how to recognize and prevent it. When I saw an Arbitration in progress about pages related to Transcendental Meditation, I voiced this concern publicly for the first time, commenting as an outside editor.

No matter how the TM arbitration is resolved, I hope that you and others who oversee Misplaced Pages consider these dangers very, very, very seriously over the long run, and find ways to protect Misplaced Pages against damage. It would be sad if Misplaced Pages was infiltrated and effectively colonized by this industry, which Marcia Angell, editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, calls an "eight-hundred pound gorilla that… is used to doing pretty much what it wants to do", and that in highly sophisticated ways "uses its immense wealth and power to co-opt nearly every institution that might stand in its way", p3,x.

Here is a link to the arbitration page evidence I provided (and here is a diff). Thank you for all you've done for Misplaced Pages. It is still young, and I do hope it endures in as much of its glory as possible. Precautionary 00:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Contradicting informations between English and Czech Misplaced Pages; Czech Misplaced Pages presents propaganda for a year and nobody care of it there

I have to once again start discussion about User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 53#Contradicting informations between English and Czech Misplaced Pages. Jimbo asked for a discussion here and I asked of Czech editors to come here to join discussion. I want to stress the key point that discussion should dealt only with this content/editorial issues to resolve it, since those are big problem. What can be done when English and Czech Misplaced Pages contains contradicting informations and nobody listens. The English Misplaced Pages states that homosexuality was remeved from the lists of disorders on the ground of recognizing the scientific evidence. This fact supported by the most reliable sources available to the topic. The Czech Misplaced Pages states that homosexuality was removed solely because of the political reasons. This statement is supported by one unfounded opinion of the author of scripts. Yes, you read right! It is absurd, isn't it? I believe this is a serious problem, but nobody has listened for several months and the article is blocked to prevent correct that. Nothing can be done. The Misplaced Pages policies about reliable sources and exceptional claims have been ignored there for many months. Is there any chance to set right propaganda of ultraconservative editors and inactive admins there? I believe CS Misplaced Pages should present facts in similar fashion as the EN Misplaced Pages, since it is not Conservapedia. Moreover, the Czech Misplaced Pages editors violates undue weight and reliable sources policies by presenting fringe sources even if those was explicitly prohibited to use in the English Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages:Help_desk/Archives/2009_August_8#Contradicting_informations_between_en_and_cs_Wikipedia didn't help to solve the issue. All mechanism including Czech Arbitrary Comitee has failed so far. These issues hurt Misplaced Pages project. Who is responsible and who failed here? --Destinero (talk) 07:52, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry to disturb you with that case, which looks crazy to me, but I have to defend myself. Please refer to User_talk:Destinero#YAATRYG_-_Yet_another_attempt_to_reach_your_goals Destinero's talk page YAATRYG case, where I already described all important with links. Destinero was blocked on cz Misplaced Pages 16 times (see the Destinero's CZ blocking record from various admins) for edit wars, personal attacks and trolling/copy-pasting and he was blocked few times here for edit wars as well, details on his talk page. I'm looking forward to see your response. Regards --DeeMusil (talk) 09:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The focal point is why Czech Misplaced Pages lies to users about reasons why homosexuality was removed from the list of mental ilness. I don't know why you are pointing out to irrelevant issues. Here we are discussing something else - why are Czech contributors unable to inform the same way like English wikipedia where *nobody* in last half year haven't had problem with it and why majority of Czech Wikipedians promote unfounded exceptionaly claim of one unimportant individual from not reviewed source promote as a fact? I am here to discuss the key issue not to endorse your effort and strategy to discredit me. Try to underestand why almost all of my edits and behaviour is O.K. on english Misplaced Pages and why it is not O.K. on Czech Misplaced Pages. You simply cannot discredit me without reasoning of why Czech contributors break Misplaced Pages rules and nobody except few editors cares. The reason for that is homophobia. The content of this page is an official policy approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects. The Wikimedia Foundation prohibits discrimination against current or prospective users and employees on the basis of race, color, gender, religion, national origin, age, disability, sexual orientation, or any other legally protected characteristics. The Wikimedia Foundation commits to the principle of equal opportunity, especially in all aspects of employee relations, including employment, salary administration, employee development, promotion, and transfer. http://wikimediafoundation.org/Non_discrimination_policy And this is the reason why Jimbo should act since Czech wikipedia users deserves to be informed the same way about the issue as English wikipedia users are - by most credible sources on this world - not present unfounded opinions of only one individual from not reviewed book which contradicts all professional mainstream sources and most cited peer-reviewed medicine journal JAMA. I cannot imagine the reason which legitimize this propaganda as well as blocking the page for a year. --Destinero (talk) 20:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Seeing that Jimbo's userpage says that he's a native English speaker and is learning German, but says nothing about any other languages, I seriously doubt that he can do anything at the Czech Misplaced Pages. Nyttend (talk) 23:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Lets make long story short: All I want to say is, how much attention is necessary to pay your assumptions and claims by anybody who reads that. 16 blocks on cz and 2 blocks here is very relevant issue and it touches the core, that your editing style is crazy without any limits and rules, including Misplaced Pages rules. On your claims according discrimination: on Czech Misplaced Pages is lot of pro-homosexual or homosexual supportive editors, including admin Faigl.ladislav see his profile and rainbow flag in there, who is by the way on your blocking record as blocking admin, but their edits are fine and are not often reverted as yours. There is not homophoby nor discrimination according your sexual orientation, but there is wide opposition according style of your edits and disrespect you show to other Misplaced Pages users, because your edits are breaking the rules. It is such simple and I think it is not necessary to go deeper into your game. I have to finish my discussion here as I do not want to make headache to Misplaced Pages founder. Destinero if you want to talk with me, I can be found on my or your talk page. --DeeMusil (talk) 01:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Lets make a long story short: You are still unable to justify propaganda. Jimbo surely is able to see that you are still commenting something completely different than the focal point of the issue. The reason is clear: You cannot justify that so you try to discredit me. I dont know how it is relevant to point out to someone who is reputedly supportive editor when the same editor warned you on your discussion board about your homophobic diction (you wrote: "1 fagot + 1 fagot = 2 tombs"): http://cs.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedista_diskuse:DeeMusil&diff=3736432&oldid=3720694 And you were not blocked! This is clearly alarming state of Czech Misplaced Pages full of injustice and homophoby. Yes, you want to finish discussion here because you have nothing relevant to say on the "following scientific fact that same-sex sexual attractions, behavior, and orientations per se are normal and positive variants of human sexuality; in other words, they are not indicators of mental or developmental disorders." (source: http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf) Your religion cannot justify the propaganda you brings to Czech users with other editors when you wrote otherwise only because one individual wrote it before 13 years in his not reviewed work. That's absurd. --Destinero (talk) 22:55, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a short comment from me, as I was an ArbCom member (my term ended at the beginning of this year). The story had two sides for the arbitration committee:

1. The content. Czech ArbCom cannot interfere in the building of the content of Misplaced Pages (as per the rules of Czech Misplaced Pages). It could not decide how the problem must be solved. Within this framework and with restricted capability, the ArbCom decided that no evidence was given that any of the person is vandalising the content (for example by including content that is fully unsourced or based on sources that are without doubts not reliable), and motivated both sides to seek to follow the rules the way that they find a way to provide the sourced information with the weight they have according the sources (not necessarily in the same articles they are in now, but in special ones, dealing the minority views or the discussion of the views). ArbCom cannot do anything more in this.
2. The behavior. Czech ArbCom was urged to stop Destinero making personal attacks, spamming discussions etc. ArbCom was given proves that Destinero infringed several rules that adjust the behavior on Misplaced Pages, and adopted special decisions on this base.

The arbitration case is not closed yet, so the decisions are not valid yet. With this explanation I hope that You, Mr. Wales, will understand that Czech Misplaced Pages ArbCom did not fail in this case. I do not want to argue with any of my colleagues' preceding comments, but You can asume that I do not agree with several of them (eg. for the topic title that "nobody care of it there" - as I really had to care of it a lot in the ArbCom member post). With regards, --Okino (talk) 04:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

A year of blocking http://cs.wikipedia.org/L%C3%A9%C4%8Den%C3%AD_homosexuality with formulation "The reason why homosexuality was not included in ICD was not a medical one, since homosexuality brings a person many difficulties which make homosexuality up a medicine caused handicap, but rather sexualy political effort to remove alleged socially unreasonable discrimination of homosexuals with reffering to their "also normality" cannot be justified in any way, since it rests on only one unreviewed source which provides nothing more than unfounded authors exceptional claim. That is the fact. For exceptional claims contradicting very broad mainstream academic and professional position most reliable and credible sources are needed according to wikipedia policies. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/Homosexuality#Psychology where such sources are used (several mainstream largest and oldest professional neutral bodies and most cited medicine journal in the world JAMA - there is simply none more credible sources in this world for this topic) for more than 6 months without nobody disputed them nowhere (in edits or discussions). Please, stop propaganda on Czech Misplaced Pages immediately and unblock the article. The same reasoning go for promoting American College of Pediatricans, which is fringe group (astroturf) with only one employee (see http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/07/31/beliefs_drive_research_agenda_of_new_think_tanks/) and which was prohibited to use on English Misplaced Pages under its policies http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_36#American_College_of_Pediatricians It's absurd to do undue weight of one activist political group founded only in 2001 with one employee where largest and oldest neutral professional bodies like American Academy of Pediatrics or leading peer-reviewed journal Pediatrics and others garant neutral and fact-based point of view. Compare http://cs.wikipedia.org/Homosexualita#V.C3.BDchova_d.C4.9Bt.C3.AD with http://en.wikipedia.org/Homosexuality#Parenting What a difference! --Destinero (talk) 11:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey Jimbo and other non-Czech speakers like me. You can use google translation: . Here is the problematic part:

That does seem to be a rather fringe viewpoint. Does WP:UNDUE apply? And it conflicts with what American Psychological Association says :

APA has 150,000 members. I think it is a FAR MORE WP:RS than Brzek, Antonín. Phoenix of9 07:34, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You're definitly right. These are not facts presented only by American Psychological Assocition, but also American Psychiatric Association, National Association of Social Workers, peer-reviewed Journal of American Medical Association, Royal College of Psychiatristis, Australian Psychological Society, Chinese psychologists and so on... The majority of Czech wikipadians are unable to meet the conditions of fundamental Misplaced Pages policies and recommendations to use most reliable sources available and don't promote exceptional unfounded claims of relatively unimportant individuals in their not reviewed text "Sexuology for lawyers". Unwillingness and/or inability majority of Czech engaged editors and administrators to explain why Brzek http://s1.imgupload.cz/img/--/199067/M6GRB/brzek.png according to them should be comparable to internationally recognized and distinguished eminent experts like Herek http://s1.imgupload.cz/img/--/199068/6w3Kr/herek.png http://www.glad.org/uploads/docs/cases/2009-11-17-doma-aff-herek.pdf#page=7 presentign verifiable facts is alarming and points to something is definitely wrong on the Czech Misplaced Pages, which lost a lot of good editors like Kyknos (see translation of his personal page providing the same reasons like me http://cs.wikipedia.org/Wikipedista:Kyknos). In that case it is amusing to hold donations to support Misplaced Pages. I don't want to support Czech propagandapedia which rather resembles Conservapedia style of content anymore. And I am definitely not alone. Because this is simply not useful and reliable educational terciary source. --Destinero (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Btw, the page has been under full protection for ALMOST A YEAR. Since "17. 3. 2009". Czech: , English . Thats crazy! Phoenix of9 07:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Looking into this further, arbitration case between Destinero and DeeMusil has been going on for more than 7 months!! Czech: English: . Phoenix of9 08:09, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Phoenix, sorry, but when you say A, you should say B as well to keep other informed right. Crazy seems to be, that Destinero did not searched for consensus to unblock the article (in time when he was not blocked - and Destinero was blocked 190 of last 365 days = (52%) according to his blocking record, what is unbeliveable), that's why the article is still locked. Last month there is some remarkable move, when Destinero proposed text to Brzek source, but finally colapsed by Destineros personal attacks and trolling, when he is blocked again. Until Destinero is blocked, it is possible that author of the Brzek source (what I'm not) will agree with Destinero on proposed formulation and article will be unlocked. Most strange is, that in one discussion Destinero is proposing text to Brzek source to unlock the article, on the other discussion in the same time he is writing, the source should be removed, so I have serious doubts about what Destinero really wants. Consider the size of Czech Misplaced Pages community and consider that very few editors was working on the article. Now, probably, nobody wants to continue until problem is solved, otherwise can easily happen, that they will loose their work, so I personally feel Destineros activity and behavior style as the main obstacle to unlock mentioned article.--DeeMusil (talk) 13:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no way to justify of reference Brzek, because of Misplaced Pages:REDFLAG. Why are you for a year completely unable to understand this central fact? Jimbo Wales put it very clearly: The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research. If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Neutral_point_of_view I am convinced he will stand to his longstanding and well-proven position and urge you to unblock the article and remove the passage which brokes several policies and recommendations ASAP. --Destinero (talk) 13:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I want to stress that practise of you and your colleagues is unacceptable in terms of Misplaced Pages policies and recommendations and if Jimbo doesn't help to settle the issue then my patience is in the end after a year and publicity and Czech media will take care of it to let everybody knows what is the quality and reliability of Czech Misplaced Pages and where and why its systems of collaboration failed. --Destinero (talk) 13:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This is NOT REDFLAG. In arbitrary with Destinero, I did serve with dozens of sources, which says the same. Claim it is about redflag is simply false. Actually, I always said, that such information should be formulated neutrally, A says B about C, so in that case no red flag is even possible. Additionaly, CZ wikipedia rules differs a bit (are not such complex), so there is no red flag at all on CZW. Futhermore, Destinero completely IGNOREs recommendation Misplaced Pages:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which exist on both EN and CZ wikipedia. // Destinero do you want to move this discussion into the article (where some of your claims was already widely discussed, for example EN->CZ rules usage) or you want to bother Jimbo Wales with whole your culture war agenda again? --DeeMusil (talk) 16:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Does this seem reasonable?

Hi. Very sorry to disturb.

There is a Welsh film that I enjoy. In fact, I helped set up the IMDb page for the film back in 1999 when I was a major IMDb researcher, one of their "Top 200". The film is called Hedd Wyn.

Yesterday I noticed 2 errors on the Welsh WP page for the (Welsh language) film. I presumed this to be the result of (Welsh nationalist) vandalism. I corrected the errors, bringing the page into line with both the IMDb and English WP.

The Welsh sys admin has now blocked my editing privileges for 1 year, and restored both errors to the WP page.

Is that a reasonable outcome?

Sincerely, Varlaam (talk) 21:28, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

See cy:Arbennig:Contributions/Varlaam and cy:Sgwrs Defnyddiwr:Varlaam. "Edit summaries such as "Grow up" and comments such as "Are you insane?" are not acceptable here. Any more in a similar vein and you will be blocked" . Your next edit was, without question, more in a similar vein , you were blocked. Asserting that "Wales is not a country" in the Welsh Misplaced Pages is... not smart. The blocking admin, cy:Defnyddiwr:Anatiomaros has been active there since 2006. The problem appears to centre around Hedd Wyn (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and its equivalent cy:Hedd Wyn (ffilm). Hedd Wyn was a Welsh poet and soldier in the Royal Welch Fusiliers, the film is in the Welsh language and distributed by S4C, a Welsh-language media company. To change an article on a Welsh film about a Welsh cultural hero to say it's a UK film because Wales "is not a country" - in the Welsh Misplaced Pages? How about going the whole hog and moving it to Hedd Wyn (ffilm) AR GLUD!!!!!!? You got blocked for trolling, yes, that's a reasonable outcome. Given that you made the same edits here it's not inconceivable the same will happen here as well. Guy (Help!) 22:03, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much for doing what you did.

Hello Mr Wales,
I am writing this to say a little bit of my appreciation to you for founding and setting this wonderful project (perhaps one of the most influentual projects of the 21st century). Misplaced Pages has helped me a lot with my school work and it has also expanded my knowledge of the world around me. I can't really imagine (or has ever imagined), what this world would be like with Misplaced Pages. I am a newbie myself with editing, even though I have using the site for so long. I hope that Misplaced Pages will grow to become the largest website-in term of capacity-in the world (I don't think it's not far off now :)). All in all, I just want to express to you my appreciation of the work you have done, just nearly a decade ago, and I hope that Wikipedians and the website itself, will strive for the better in the near future, and for decades to come.
Thank you very much, Mr Wales. Sp33dyphil 08:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Misuse of Admin power part II and Brews Ohare

MR. Wales A few months ago I spoke with you about the need for reform in our "ruling system" . The last day is a clear example of how corupt our ARBCOM process has become. User:Brews ohare was blocked under the thinnest and flimsy excuse he violated his topic ban]. This was done without a clearcut consesus and was initiated by someone who review for less then ten minutes. Brews then filed a unblock request, this went unreviewed (declined/approved) for 6 days. After this a Admin took the steps to not only explain himself but made the situation right. PLease take a few moments and read this examplary statement behind TruSilver's actions ]. To have any admin take the time to put their reasons down in a respectful way is amazing, it rarely happens. But this honor of character didn't bring him the honor it should, instead he is met with threats and intimidation that if he doesn't reverse his actions he would be desysopped and sent to Arbcom. Why in the world would we punish right and good administrative actions? We should encourage this kind of review on all cases, Brews situation has detoriated from stop of the disruption to full blown wiki corruption of process. Consider one rationale from the arbcom case ], in this one argument is that trusilver didn't have Administrator support only editors, when did wikipedia decisions have to be made by Administrators. This is a great example of the heirachy of the Catholic Church in the medieval ages or the rule of a hostile aristocracy that demeans the common contributor. Please help, we welcome new editors but treat long standing ones like crap, somethign is wrong here. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a rather one-sided view of the situation. The block was certainly discussed and there seems to me to e consensus that Brews was, possibly deliberately, testing the limits. It is certainly not the case that this is an unambiguously abusive admin action, and it's already, I believe, been flagged for ArbCom sanction review. Brews is also able to email ArbCom directly if needed. Guy (Help!) 16:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually if you look when the block was initiated, there was little to no suipport for enforcement]. This was a arbitrary action taken without consensus, this is a block that should never have happened, have you seen the many times Brews has been drug to Arbcom under just as frivolous claims? This has deteriorated to witch hunt nothing more. I've asked time and time again, when will arbcom start assuming good faith and none of the committee can or will answer that? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you understand the fundamental truth about Misplaced Pages administrative actions: virtually all of them are taken without consensus, at least without prior consensus and post-facto consensus is usually in the form of silent assent. It can't be any other way. This is not the venue, anyway. ArbCom enforcement is the venue. You must surely have seen Jimbo's sarcastic essay on demanding he fix stuff you don't like. Guy (Help!) 16:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

That's a issue for him to comment on. When I see lunacy and abuse of process like this I could really care less where we ask. Why in the blue hell would I ask them again to review or explain a situation to have them through argumentum ad hominem attacks at me, sorry but I don't beat my head against a wall too often. I've attempted to raise this question and everyone involved in the decision process seems to become deaf and dumb. If I can't get the stuck up few to answer who else can I go to? The link shows clear community consensus against the block. Had the thread been left open perhaps more cronies would have come to condemn brews but it didn't happen. With Arbcom there should always be a consensus except in clear cases which this was clearly not. No pun intended. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

And you think using words like lunacy will persuade Jimbo to swing into action, override ArbCom, desysop an admin and rescue someone who caused months of disruption pushing his weird theory? You are either eztremely naïve or trolling. Guy (Help!) 17:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok putting your argumentum ad hominem aside, explain to me how the action made sense or the resulting action claiming Trusilver violated community consensus where one was being established or the subsequent one on Brews taqlkage and then on Trusilver, maybe you can help me see the light.....

HiAB, you obviously have no idea about how many silent bystanders probably just simply agree with the block, and refrain from commenting, for the straightforward reason that they don't like, let alone thrive on, the drama / brouha / bombast, so eloquently and abundantly uttered by the "supporters". Has it ever occurred to you that the fact that nobody came to "condemn brews", might have everything to do with the utterly predictable outcome of this case?

Guy, do you happen to have a pointer to that sarcastic essay? I'd love to read it. Cheers - DVdm (talk) 17:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

That is cum hoc ergo propter hoc, meaning you are taking something that didn't happen and using it as proof that it had implicit support and ultimately irrelavant as incorrect. To violate Godwins law I would also point out that this argument could have been used in the as follows. The German People were silent in the holocaust, therefore they should all be executed as war criminals because they supoorted crimes against humanity. Do you see the same underlying thread in that example and your question? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You know, there really was no need to reply - it was a rhetorical question. Oh wait, allow me use the victim's and some of his supporters' typical style here, let me rephrase that. You know, there really was no need to reply - it was a rhetorical question. Cheers - DVdm (talk) 18:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

And some would call that hubris. Another great example of not replying to the issue and attacking the person. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Example of the problems perfectly evidenced above.

Mr Wales, the above discourse is completely perfect as a example of what happens when you question the status quo. Your arguments aren't answered but rather attacks and flawed logic is used to draw attention away from the problem. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You really don't know Jimmy at all do you? Like I said, coming here demanding desysopping and making accusations of ill-faith, lunacy and so on, is pretty much guaranteed to have no good effect whatsoever, see Misplaced Pages:Appeals to Jimbo. From what you say it looks very much as if you have asked at several venues and got no traction with this so you are entirely convinced they are all wrong, mad, arrogant, abusive or part of "teh cabalz". As I said above, if you expect this approach to be effective you are naive to the point at which it gives the appearance of trolling.

Incidentally, accusing others of ad hominem in the same post where you say "everyone involved in the decision process seems to become deaf and dumb" and call people "the stuck up few" and "cronies" is plain hypocrisy.

Your actions here have undoubtedly done more to damage Brews' cause than to help it. If that was your intent then congratulations, your work is done. If it wasn't, you need to go away and think very hard about what you are trying to achieve and how it might be done. And keep your head down. A lot of people watch this page and seeing aggressive posts like yours will very often prompt an in-depth review of your recent comments and contributions. You might not like how that works out. Guy (Help!) 21:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

What a shameful misrepresentation of the concerns expressed in good faith by another editor. The corruption that has been cited above is very damaging to Misplaced Pages and one of the main reasons we are losing so many editors who give up in frustration. The administration and arbitration system have run amok and instead of a collegial community we have absurdist arguments like the one in the other thread citing a lack or support as evidence that there was support. We've seen the same thing in the abuse of civility policies where admins punish good faith editors who are being baited, harassed and trolled for expressing their disgust. Orwell are you listening? It's me ChildofMidnight. If Jimbo chooses to ignore the dysfunction and the disruptive distractions that are used to abuse our editing norms, that's on him. I think it's long overdue that he stepped up to his responsibilities and helped rein in the worst of the abuses. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Guy your petty threats do not scare me. I contribute to this encyclopedia in a meaningful way. If you think there needs to be more scrutiny on me for calling out cronies, falsehoods and inequities go for it. You would be one of many that has, they've all lost though. Until then please omit all references on what may happen Hell In A Bucket (talk) 22:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a Constitutional Crisis

If ever there was a constitutional crisis on wikipedia, this is it, . And it's interesting to note how editor Guy has stepped forward in an attempt to whitewash the situation. Guy has pulled out all the standard bureaucratic stops. One of these is to tell 'Hell in a Bucket' that appealing to Jimbo won't work. Well maybe it won't. But it certainly won't work if he doesn't appeal to Jimbo. Another classic stop was to denigrate Brews ohare by referring to his weird theory. To the best of my knowledge, Brews ohare doesn't have a weird theory, and I have been editing with Brews closely since he started wikipedia. The idea of Brews's weird theory is a plain lie. Then guy pulled that other extraordinary classic about the idea that those who speak up in favour of Brews are the ones who are damaging him. This is arrant nonsense. The ones who are damaging Brews are the ones who are blocking him, banning him, and bearing false witness against him. A typical ARBCOM trial is based on the principle of identifying the villains at the beginning of the trial and putting them on the pillory. Any attempt by the accused to defend themselves will be seen as 'disruptive behaviour', and will be used to justify the final sanctions. That is how ARBCOM works. Often there are 'novi acti interventi' present at the ARBCOM trial, such as editor Ncmvocalist who trot around the courtroom giving back kicks to the accused and provoking reactions which are then used against them.

This latest problem surrounding administrator Trusilver is a classic example of the failure of the entire system. A total constitutional review is necessary and separation of powers is needed. A newly constituted arbitration committee needs to be established as a higher tier for the sole purpose of desysoping admins who abuse their tools. All law an order issues on wikipedia can be adequately dealt with by admins with a maximum three month block power. And I would hope that any new arbitration committee would not be needing a logo with a bunch of bananas on it. David Tombe (talk) 03:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)