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Brief Chronicles

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New journal, only 1 issue published as yet. Does not even have an ISSN. Article creation premature: this cannot yet be notable. The article mentions that the journal is indexed in the World Shakespeare Bibliography and by the Modern Language Association. It is not clear to me how discerning these databases are and I feel that this confers at best a marginal notability. In short: this does not meet WP:Notability (academic journals) or WP:N. Hence delete. Crusio (talk) 17:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. -- Crusio (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. -- Crusio (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. -- Crusio (talk) 17:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Weak keep. First things first: inclusion in the MLA database pretty much means notability in the field of language, literature, and humanities. They are in fact pretty discerning (more so than the World Sh. Bibl., I believe). I have to take the journal's word for this inclusion--apparently the MLA did not get my check for renewing my membership yet, so I couldn't check the MLA Directory of Periodicals. The "weak" part in my keep is that (and Crusio is right here) the journal is very new, and (no disrespect intended) I am not that impressed by the membership of the board: I don't really see any of the Shakespeare bigwigs that I am familiar with. But, the bottomline, as far as I am concerned, is their MLA inclusion. Someone will come along with other data, perhaps, that bolster this case, but for me this is enough. Drmies (talk) 19:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. I finally made it to work and was able to verify that the journal is indeed indexed by the MLA. Drmies (talk) 18:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy to supply direct documentation to the fact of inclusion in both MLA and World Shakespeare Bibliography data bases. The journal has applied for ISSN but not yet received one. I would add that Crusio, although nominating the page for deletion, apparently did not know what MLA means, a striking indication that his recommendation is based on less than complete knowledge of the relevant facts. I wonder if Drmies would be so kind as to be more specific when he says that "I am not that impressed by the membership of the board." If that is based on his reasoning that "I don't really see any Shakespeare bigwigs," then I would submit that this is hardly a reasoned position. Many members of the editorial board are distinguished academicians, and perhaps it would behoove wikipedians to adopt a somewhat more inclusive definition of "notability" than to imply that only journals started or staffed by "bigwigs" in a particular field should qualify for this designation. Thank you for your consideration. Drmies, I appreciate your support, even if it seems overqualified to me, for inclusion of the journal. --BenJonson (talk) 20:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• For what it is worth, members of editorial boards don't put much weight in the balance either way. If no "bigwigs" are included that can be a warning sign, but if many bigwigs are included, that doesn't necessarily mean much either. That's why we don't list board members in journal articles... (see discussion here). --Crusio (talk) 21:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• I would just note that there is a difference between "distinguished academicians" and "Shakespeare bigwigs." The first do not, in my opinion, add to the notability of a Shakespeare journal. Ben, perhaps my statements seem overqualified to you, but keep in mind that we are on a continuum here, and if that continuum is one of notability we're at the lesser end since the journal is so young and cannot, therefore, have proved itself by being discusses in other sources. Crusio, I beg to differ--if Stanley Wells or Gary Taylor edit a certain new Shakespeare journal, then that journal should be considered notable in an almost hereditary fashion (and we do list editors in journal articles). But that's a discussion for a different place. Drmies (talk) 21:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Drmies, yes I understand that distinction very well, believe me. And I agree with your assessment that this is a continuum and that it is fair to remark that BC may be currently at the "lesser end," which is part of why I stated to Crusius that he might want to take a breather and wait and see what happens over the next year or even six months. He naturally replied that Misplaced Pages can't really make decisions based on unsourced statements from academic proles (:) like BenJonson. But I have followed the Shakespearean question as a topic in intellectual history for nearly twenty years now, and the shifts and realignments which are currently taking place behind the scenes are momentous indeed. Some of today's experts will be tomorrow's discredited cheaters, and some of today's nobodies will be tomorrow's experts. Take, for instance, the credentials of Dr. Carole Chaski, one of the editorial board members of Brief Chronicles. She is probably *the* world authority, certainly one of handful who might be regarded as such, on the subject of linguistic identification of authorship. She currently consults with the secret service, among other high profile clients. There is an awful lot of chicanery in this field, much of it by academicians, and some of it by distinguished "bigwigs" in the Shakespeare industry such as Donald Foster, who no longer works in academia after he was successfully sued by Stephen Hatfill for misidentifying him as the anthrax terrorist. Only five years ago, Foster was a "bigwig" in Shakespeare studies. My point is that when you consider what expertise really consists of, Chaski is the expert -- Foster was a wannabee who violated the protocols of scholarship in the course of pursuing his "bigwigdom." He got caught. (If you have the interest, see the introductory essay of BC, here: http://www.briefchronicles.com. Again, thank you for your thoughtful moderation on this point and your consideration of my remarks. I am unfortunately overfamiliarized with wikipedia participants who cannot seem to hold a discussion without larding it with insults. --BenJonson (talk) 00:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I was not referring to Crusio in the above negative remark about some other wikipedia editors. I have found him always to be courteous, even when he and I don't agree on a particular point.--BenJonson (talk) 12:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Keep --as I expressed on the article talk page both the MLA and the WSB seem to satisfy Criteria 1 ("The most typical way of satisfying Criterion 1 is to show that the journal is included in the major indexing services in its field") - although I now understand that this is a linked essay and not a formal guideline. Especially the MLA, as noted by Drmies, above. Also, the editor, Gary Goldstein, is the previous editor of The Elizabethan Review , ISSN 1066-7059, a semi-annual peer reviewed journal published from 1993 to 1999 on the English Renaissance. Cheers! 75.144.246.14 (talk) 00:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not really sure that having been EIC of a journal that existed for only 6 years adds much to the discussion here. In any case, WP:NOTINHERITED obviously applies. --Crusio (talk) 15:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Delete - This is a journal set up to promote a fringe theory (viz Oxfordian theory). It was recently discussed on the reliable studies board, at which several uninvolved editors expressed the view that it is an unreliable fringe source portraying itself as a normal academic journal: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Brief_Chronicles. The author of this article is the founder of the journal and assiduous promoter of the theory on Misplaced Pages. The journal is not truly notable. Paul B (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I read that discussion; thank you for the link. I wish someone had brought that up earlier. However, my one argument for keeping still stands--MLA indexing, which is a big enough deal, in my opinion. I have faith that in the near future some RSes will turn up that will allow editors to insert the appropriate caveats in the article, and some can already be made based on the table of contents of the first volume--I will leave that to the experts (Sh. is a bit too modern for me). Note: I have no desire to ever say that this journal would count as a reliable source for any kind of factual, objective statement. Drmies (talk) 16:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• I have not voted yet, and will not until all the remarks of others have been posted. I wonder if Paul Barlowe could clarify a point of confusion. How does one distinguish between a "fringe theory" and an idea that is merely out of favor in the court? This term is repeatedly used regarding the Oxfordian perspective, but has never been justified in an credible manner. Significant numbers of informed scholars and leading Shakespearean actors believe the theory is credible. Given that that is already the case, at what point in the history of the debate would Paul acknowledge that the idea is no longer "fringe." It is incumbent on those who use such terms to clearly define what they mean, and not to assume that they can be meaningfully used without proper definition. In such an instance, proper definition includes specifying what the term does *not* cover. Suppose, for example, that a leading Shakespearean scholar such as Marjorie Garber or Graham Holderness were to announce tomorrow that he or she either 1) fully supported the theory or 2) felt the theory was credible and that wikipedia editors such as Paul Barlowe should stop referring to it as a "fringe theory." Would that constitute sufficient grounds to agree that the term is inappropriate? Or would it require an even more thorough demonstration of its stupidity? -- and if so, what would that look like. I want to know the answer to this question NOW, because even if the majority of editors vote to remove the page NOW, I want to know under what circumstances such a decision would be reversible. Is it too much to ask that wikipedia be held accountable to such a standard of discourse? I hope not.--BenJonson (talk) 17:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Delete this particular new journal. It's very hard to judge a new journal. I'm a little more open to possible notability of such a journal than Crusio. When from a truly major scientific society, like the ACS, any new journal of theirs is certain to be notable, since all their other journals are --and are generally more than notable, generally the standard top level journal in their subject specialties. And if from a major publisher, like one of the best university presses, a publisher where essentially all of its journals are notable, the new one is very likely to be notable also. The same goes for a journal edited by a person extremely notable in the subject. But the question here is whether the "managing Editor" role by Gary Goldstein is sufficient for notability . I do not think so. His previous journal was borderline notable at the very best, being in only 33 WorldCat libraries, which is extremely low for a popular subject like this; it certainly does not make anything else he does notable . He has no published books in WorldCat. The book listed in his cv on the journal page is from a very minor publisher, and does not yet seem to be in any worldCat library. A Google Scholar search for him shows very little. I notice he does not in the cv claim to have a faculty appointment anywhere; I do not think he would himself be notable under WP:PROF. The General Editor, Roger A. Stritmatter, is assistant professor at a minor university. The positions of people on the editorial board matter very little. Chaski may be an expert, but not in English literature. Looking at the authors of articles, very few hold university positions. I notice, interestingly, that many of the people involved in this publication seem to be interested in the fringe position that the Earl of Oxford wrote Shakespeare. That would not necessarily rule out this journal, but it does affect the way one might look at the advocacy for the inclusion of the article. The argument above that the people involved are not currently recognized as important in the subject, but soon will be, is typical of a a subject where the correct answer is "not yet notable". BC is far below the lesser end of notability. DGG ( talk ) 16:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear DGG:

Thank you for clarifying that I work a "minor" University, whatever that particular code word means. Actually, all of the members of the BC editorial board are experts, of one form or another, in their particular areas of specialization. And sir, as a matter of fact, under any reasonable application of the notability rules, I do happen to qualify, even though there is no wikipedia page about me. My dissertation was widely covered in the intellectual news media, including (favorably in both instances) in the Chronicle of Higher Education and the New York Times, as well as being mentioned in articles in the Washington Post (for which I have written) and Harpers. I have published over sixteen academic articles in peer reviewed journals in my areas of specialization. Now that you have some facts, would you still hold to your old opinion?

You baldly state that "the positions of people on the editorial board matter very little." This statement conveys most tellingly in its absolute lack of any real content. What do you mean by "positions"? If you mean the academic affiliations, then your contradiction is blatant to the point of hypocrisy. You just got through saying that because I'm an assistant professor at a "minor" university, I'm not notable. You can't have it both ways. "Matter very little" -- to who or in what do they not matter? You imply that you are referring to the wikipedia standards of notability, but you make no reference to any relevant language which would justify your inference. Instead, it appears that you are mistaking your own uninformed opinion that, because you disagree with the position advocated, you want (sometimes) to ignore the credentials of those who hold the contrary opinion, with reality. In other instances, you want to use their alleged lack of credentials to argue that credentials are all that matters. I realize that you probably don't see this as a contradiction, but it is. You're trying your best to rationalize the "cognitive disequilibrium" that results from the fact that normally you would respect the academic affiliations of the board members, but in this case you'll make an exception because you don't like what they seem to be saying.

It is also interesting to me in reviewing your remarks to what extent you have selectively developed your case. You refer to a google search on Gary Goldstein, but apparently either did not make a google search on Coppin State University *Associate* Professor Stritmatter, which would have produced dozens of hits, including to some of the sources mentioned above. You state that Dr.Carole Chaski is not an expert in Shakespearean studies. This is correct. Please review her qualifications in light of the declared editorial purpose of the journal in question. The subtitle is "An Interdisciplinary Journal of Authorship Studies." The editorial board is designed to maximize professional expertise in those areas which are relevant to the journal's subject of inquiry, which are by no means limited to those narrowly construed as experts in Shakespeare.

I asked Paul Barlowe to justify his use of the standard cant phrase, "fringe" position or topic. I ask you to do the same. Let me tell you what I think you are really saying, and I'll listen politely to any reasoned response that avoids calling me a holocaust denier or similar glib epithets which have besmirched the history of this topic: "because a majority of people in a given field don't agree with something, we will ignore the objective standards which wikipedia has established for determining notability (in this instance, that the primary and most important criterion of notability is that the journal in question be indexed by the relevant academic indexing services, which it is) and side with the majority. We like what the majority says. We don't know anything about the debate, but we feel that wikipedia should not offend powerful majorities. We haven't read the journal in question, know next to nothing about the arguments it makes or the larger intellectual context in which those arguments are made, but we will vote to determine that the article's subject is not notable so that we can uphold wikipedia 'standards.'" Forgive me for remarking (and please don't take it personally) that this strikes me as the blind leading the deaf, dumb, and ignorant.-- (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that disclaimer "please don't take it personally". Otherwise we might all think you're referring to the participants here.

It is telling that 55 percent of the comments so far are from the editor of the journal, which is about par in any discussion in which he participates. This is just the latest example of how Misplaced Pages is being used to promote the fringe theory of anti-Stratfordism and Oxfordism. Lest one doubts that it is a fringe theory and that the proponents don't think so, take a look at Talk: Shakespeare authorship question, at which the main anti-Stratfordian editor there, Smatprt, regularly quotes WP:FRINGE as justification for his edits. See here (read the bullet points) and the very last comment here. And in fact, he added it as a notable example at the Fringe theory article, because the first rule of PR is any exposure is good exposure as long as they spell the name right (or in this case, get the link right).

My vote? I don't care. After a long and contentious argument over whether journal this could be considered a reliable source, in which I argued that WP:PARITY applies, it seems apparent to me that a lot of Wikipedian editors who don't really have the background to make judgments about topics they know little about judge only by the arguments made during the process. It also appears that the Misplaced Pages community apparently doesn't care that its encyclopedia is being used to promote a fringe theory that is dismissed by almost every Shakespeare academic. So go ahead and let him have the article, but I think it only fair that it should be limited to the same word count as the article for the Review of English Studies.

Oh, and to set the record straight: Donald Foster is still very much employed in academia as a Professor of English on the Jean Webster Chair at Vassar College, definitely not a minor university. BenJonson's malicious comments appear to be motivated by professional jealousy and border on slander and should be removed forthwith. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

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