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Revision as of 18:35, 11 March 2010 editGatoclass (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators104,145 edits reply mbz← Previous edit Revision as of 18:43, 11 March 2010 edit undoMbz1 (talk | contribs)22,338 edits Drork was right!Next edit →
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:::: Well if he wrote copiously on the topic, you ought to be able to create a more nuanced article than a grab-bag of comments that make him sound like a cheerleader for Zionism. ] (]) 18:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC) :::: Well if he wrote copiously on the topic, you ought to be able to create a more nuanced article than a grab-bag of comments that make him sound like a cheerleader for Zionism. ] (]) 18:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' Mbz1, '''please''' stop using a large font to emphasize your comments. Using a bold font is sufficient. Thank you. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC) **'''Comment''' Mbz1, '''please''' stop using a large font to emphasize your comments. Using a bold font is sufficient. Thank you. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' Shabazz, I used "big" two times here. First I put my comment in big to attract the attention that I'd like to get the help with my prose. So far instead of the help I hear POV, OR, personal essay. So, even me using "big" did not help. The second time I used big was to write Robert Kennedy name. Do you see any problems with writing his name in big letters? I am amazed that some Misplaced Pages administrators and users seem to forget that it is ] they are talking about, that it is his writings that they do not find notable enough to have their own article on Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 18:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

*<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small><small> —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</small> *<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small><small> —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</small>
*<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small><small> —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</small> *<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small><small> —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</small>

Revision as of 18:43, 11 March 2010

Robert Kennedy in Palestine (1948)

Robert Kennedy in Palestine (1948) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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This article fails notability and is highly problematic in terms of WP:POV and WP:RS. When Robert F. Kennedy was only 22 he spent a couple of weeks in Palestine. The main article Robert F. Kennedy devotes a single sentence to this trip. (Or it did before Mbz1 started editing that article, too).

The title of the article is not accurate to the content. Rather than describing Robert F. Kennedy's experiences in Palestine it is mostly about his opinions on the Arab-Israeli conflict. In particular, anti-Arab and pro-Israeli comments that have been cherry picked from Kennedy's dispatches by the articles author.

The sourcing of this article is poor. It relies mainly upon unreliable opinion pieces from sources such as the Jerusalem Post and Jerusalem World News. It also uses the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs as a source, which is a pro-Israeli advocacy organization.

The article is written in a highly non-encyclopedic manner. For example, "The story that ended in tragedy in The Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles had started twenty years earlier in a different part of the world.". This sounds like popular magazine writing, not encyclopedia writing. "In spite of his antisemitism, Joseph P. Kennedy probably was proud of his son Robert." this kind of speculation is not factual or supported by sources. "Robert Kennedy was also correct when he completely dismissed the notion that a Jewish state would ever become a Communist state." Kennedy didn't say that a Jewish state could never become communist, and agreeing with him about such a claim regardless is highly POV. "Young Kennedy had a special gift for getting people to talk to him." is a subjective judgement. "He became expressive while visiting a kibbutz." is just poorly written.

The article assumes and repeatedly states that Robert F. Kennedy's later support for Israel as a politician was due to these several weeks he spent there as a young man not because of later experiences or politics. This is a highly debatable notion, but the article repeatedly presents the notion as if it were fact.

Factsontheground (talk) 08:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

No, just your presentation of them. Gatoclass (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
You are an admin, aren't you. You should know better than call something "rant" with no samples. Please provide an example of mine "presentation of them", which is "rant" in your opinion.--Mbz1 (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The article is poorly sourced, heavily one-sided and reads like a WP:OR personal essay. However, since I have no desire to cause offence, I have struck "rant" and substituted "essay". Gatoclass (talk) 17:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Why do you consider this to be a "poor source"? Why two articles from Jerusalem Post are "poor sources"? Where exactly to you see WP:OR, provide all the instances please?--Mbz1 (talk) 17:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
One or two of the sources look okay but you have also sourced to an Israeli advocacy site, a hard right magazine, and a bunch of op-eds mostly from Jewish publications. These are a long way from optimum sources when it comes to a topic area as contentious as the I-P conflict. OR? Well for one thing, you have attempted to melodramatically link Kennedy's 1948 visit to his assassination. You have also cherry picked Kennedy's quotes. For example, here's one quote from Kennedy's diary you didn't bother to add:
"However, the battle over Palestine was the result of an extraordinary endeavor: an attempt by some European Jewish leaders to implant a large Jewish community in Palestine - which necessarily implied their taking all or part of this land away from the Palestinian Arab people who had been living here for centuries". Gatoclass (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep While some of the phrasing could be improved, the article deals with a notable topic and is well sourced and can easily be more so given some time rather than this quite speedy delete attempt. It is a good start on a larger article. As noted in the article RFK's fate was sealed in Palestine and he was one of the first victims of Palestinian political violence in the United States, ie Sirhan Sirhan. While we already have a main article about RFK, this is an area that deserves expansion, with a reference to the main (RFK) article. Stellarkid (talk) 16:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Kennedy was in the ME for a few days in 1948 as a callow 22-year-old and made some entries in his diary. I'm inclined to agree that this is not substantial enough for an encyclopedic topic. Perhaps an article on Kennedy's views of Israel or the ME conflict as they developed through his life might be worthwhile, but I can't see the point of an article on a topic as narrow as this. Gatoclass (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Haven't you read that all those so-called " entries in his diary" were published in the most popular news paper of Boston Boston Globe? IMO your inputs here so far clearly shows that you have not a slightest idea what you're talking about.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:30, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Well if he wrote copiously on the topic, you ought to be able to create a more nuanced article than a grab-bag of comments that make him sound like a cheerleader for Zionism. Gatoclass (talk) 18:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
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