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${\displaystyle \star }$  Regarding posting (or reposting) of my personal info at Misplaced Pages  ${\displaystyle \star }$ ${\displaystyle \star }$  DON'T DO IT!! SEVERAL EDITORS HAVE BEEN INDEFINITELY BANNED FROM WIKIPEDIA FOR DOING SO.  ${\displaystyle \star }$ Lately I have become more sensitive to the posting of personal information about myself here at Misplaced Pages. I am the target of cyberstalking and hate mail from some pretty unbalanced people and regularly receive threats (including occasional death threats). While I don't normally have any reason to hide my true identity, any past revealings by myself on or off wiki should not be construed by others as license to do it here at Misplaced Pages, where only my "BullRangifer" tag should be used. My personal identity and activities off wiki should be kept separate from my username and activities on wiki. While such revealings here have often been done innocently, I still reserve the right to delete such personal information posted here at Misplaced Pages by others. My own and my family's security is at stake here, and I would appreciate support in this matter. Thanks. -- Brangifer

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

What's in a name?

Name change.

Alternative medicine critics

Please help develop this. Use the talk page.

Stuff...

SPI filing

Based partly on a tag you placed, I have filed an SPI report here: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Nevetsnairb. Thanks, Verbal chat 08:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

And they're all blocked! Good work. SPAs and socks cause lots of problems here. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2?

Does he have an inexhaustible supply of bone-headedness? As ammusing as his delusions are I wonder if it would be better for all if we found a way to resolve the fake-controvercy he is promoting in talk:Ghosts. Your thoughts? --Salimfadhley (talk) 13:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he does, and other, more serious, measures are in progress. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Since the tagging situation has been resolved for the moment, I suggest ignoring him. If he resumes his edit warring, stonewalling, and disruption, we can take action. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I guess you are right. I naively thought he could be reasoned with - unfortunately he keeps repeating the exact same arguments (ad infinitum). It's so tiresome. I guess enough people are on his case now so if he tries something it will be instantly reverted. The most annoying thing about him... I think it's that he randomly alleges others of violating policies apparantly at random. It's painfully clear that he does not understand the policies he claims to enforce. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes and no. The last sentence isn't true. He knows them well enough to game the system and stonewall. That takes a fairly good understanding of policy. This isn't some innocent game he's playing. If you study when he first came to Misplaced Pages, he immediately made trouble for some time. Then he calmed down and did some good work, stayed out of trouble, etc.. Lately he has returned with a vengeance to his old disruptiveness, and in such a manner that he's acting as a clone of User:Levine2112, who has been rather quiet since his topic ban. Even after it has run out he hasn't returned to his old haunts, but I find it hard to believe he couldn't find it tempting to cause trouble under some other guise. There are some editors whom one learns to know so well that AGF is lost on them. AGF is not a suicide pagt. Stay on your toes. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that's informative. --Ludwigs2 15:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

So Ludwigs2 is no dummy, he's a troll. I understand. --Salimfadhley (talk) 16:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

hmmm... baiting? please...

look, I'm going to make one reasonable suggestion, and then I'll leave the two of you to have your conversation in peace. You can treat me as an enemy, the way you have done to date, and things will go on the way they are going on until they reach whatever unpleasant conclusion they will inevitably reach. or, you can try discussing matters with me sensibly, and we will come to some compromise position that won't be exactly what you desire, but will be an overall better situation. It's up to you. I have nothing particularly invested in this, so I have nothing to lose by continuing to argue for what I think is correct. You'll likely get a whole lot farther with me (a whole lot faster) by being cooperative than by using less savory tactics.

just an FYI. So, unless someone says something specifically directed to me, I'll bow out now. --Ludwigs2 18:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

If you don't mind a suggestion: Either ignore him, or start a RFC to document his behavior in a proper venue. --Ronz (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

An interesting compromise suggestion was added by User:Abecedare to the NPOV talk page - did you see it, it's right at the end. He suggests a minor alteration to the wording of the NSF citation which makes explicit that the words are cited by the NSF rather than originated by the NSF. I think that would dispel any concerns held by the vast majority of editors. I'm pretty sure that all the other purported issues are without merit. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it. Dbachmann has just been disruptive and I have replied to him. Please don't add to that particular thread. He shouldn't have commented there. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed - you never responded to Ludwigs2's preposterous sounding claim that the NSF report was a primary source. That seems to me so self-evidently wrong, since it's so obviously a secondary or tertiary source: The fact that it cites other secondary sources is the dead give-away. This misunderstanding may account for his strange belief that it was something casually written, and his unjustified interpolations of the text which he added to the table on the talk:ghost page. --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought I responded to it when he accused me of a SYNTH violation. I explained that in essence NSF has done what any good writer does, and that is to study various sources and synthesize some content based on those sources. This is perfectly proper. NSF did it, not I. At one time he repeated his false "primary source" claim and instead of once again rebutting it, I just answered (as if it might be true), but explained that he was still wrong. Here was my reply:

• "Whether or not it's a primary source isn't really the primary issue here, it's your continued insistance that this is an improper use of a primary source. Upon which policy are you basing this suppostion, which nobody in the RfC at Talk:Ghost or here is seeing? Somehow you are right, and practically everyone else is wrong? I think not. So far, your interpretation would seem to prevent us from using any source. Please point us to this policy and show how we are violating it."

That's when he explained that he was basing his claim on the SYNTH policy, and I debunked his misapplication of that policy. If he's still making his false claim, then it needs to be dealt with even better. (This type of IDHT and repeating the same claim is exactly the tactic that Levine2112 and QuackGuru use. They can do it for months on end!) I imagine the RS noticeboard would be a good place to get an opinion and then quote them. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

You are obviously having severe communication problems. I think that has to do with the fact the Ludwigs2 is highly intelligent with an excellent sense for nuances, while you even have problems distinguishing Ludwigs2 and Levine2112, two very different users. Ludwigs2 has a good point, but I am not surprised that most editors don't understand it and I am especially not surprised that you don't understand it. The fact that it's hard to understand doesn't make it invalid. Hans Adler 01:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I can take some comfort in the fact that even though I have the excuse of using a second language - Danish - as my daily and only language for 24 years, even the other participants in two RfCs don't understand or agree with him either, and I strongly suspect that many of them have English as their first and daily language, and are smarter than all of us. If he's going to get others to understand him, then the burden is on him to explain himself better. Frankly I find his wikilawyering to be "enkel", "forfejlet", "gennemskuelig" and "genkendelig". (Look that up ;-) It's a deja vu experience. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• English is my first (and only) language. My feeling is that when we cite an external source we must accept the plainest meaning, since Misplaced Pages strives for verifiability and not truth. Ludwigs2 would win a prize if this were an exercise in higher literary criticism, rather than an attempt to build a verifiable encyclopedia. I think there's no need for interpolation of the NSF documents, especially when the plain meaning is so obvious --Salimfadhley (talk) 10:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Being a native speaker of English doesn't automatically give you the ability to understand the principles of scholarly citation. In fact, this issue has nothing to do with any particular language. I guess the best way to understand this is by publishing in a scholarly journal yourself and then seeing people rely on your authority for statements that you didn't formulate carefully because they were not in the centre of your argument.

The particular document in question here is about public belief in pseudoscience, not about demarcation of pseudoscience, which is known to be a hard question in the philosophy of science. To get an idea of how many people believe in pseudoscience one needs to be relatively accurate with what one calls a pseudoscience. When discussing any individual topic one needs to be totally accurate.

The NSF could ignore the dimension of reincarnation as a religious belief, for example, because relatively few people in the US adhere to a religion that involves reincarnation. Immaculate conception is also pseudoscience if you ignore the religious component, and millions of US citizens believe in it. Yet the NSF didn't have it on the questionnaire because in the US the religion aspect dominates for this topic, unlike for reincarnation where it only dominates in Asia. Hans Adler 12:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Hans, your opinion is probably the truth. If this were an exercise in lit-crit or deduction I might reach the same opinion. It would make an interesting social-studies paper, since the nuance is an interesting one which casts doubt on the consistency of this reputable source.

My issue has always been that as wikipedia editors we should simply report what is definitely verifiable rather than any inferred, probable truth. We know for a fact what the document states, what you and Ludwigs2 claim they actually intended to mean is disputable and therefore non-verifiable. --Salimfadhley (talk) 12:56, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

That's an interesting response. Now I am curious: Do you agree with Brangifer's calim that Ludwigs2 is wikilawyering? Presumably Brangifer is referring to items 2–4 of WP:WL. I trust he will clarify in case that's not what he meant. Hans Adler 13:34, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure, it certainly seems that way. Scroll back a bit, you will see me accuse Ludwigs2 of misunderstanding certain WP policies. For example, on a number of occasions he has stated that the doc which Brangifer cited is a primary source despite it being clearly not the case. My original presumption was that Ludwigs2 was a troll simply because he invoked so many WP policies without due cause.

My current opinion is that he is an honest player who has simply come down the wrong side of a truth vs verifiability debate. He's a passionate advocate of the truth, whereas Brangifer appears to strive for WP:V. The fact that I think that Ludwigs2's interpretation is interesting and probably true is utterly immaterial - WP:V is what we strive for. --Salimfadhley (talk) 14:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Hans, thanks for the link to the WL essay. I wasn't aware of it. I think it fails to mention some common aspects of WL, but of the four choices I'm probably most concerned with number 4:

• 4. "Misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions."

He's misusing the SYNTH policy and claiming the NSF statement is a primary source to justify rejecting the clear meaning of a statement attributed to a RS. In the process he's violating OR by claiming that his interpretation of the NSF statement renders it to mean something else than it actually says, and thus it's not a good source. In fact, as I've explained before, it is the NSF that is doing the actual synthezing of several primary sources they quote in the document, and producing a secondary document. That's excellent writing practice. Their statement, which uses the Gallup Poll as an example, even changes the Gallup Poll's wording, thus making it clear they understood what they were doing and that they were equating "paranormal" with "pseudoscience", not as synonyms, but that they consider paranormal beliefs to be pseudoscientific beliefs. Wikilawyering also has an aspect of doggedness to it which we call stonewalling, that is a failure to know when to admit that the consensus is against you and that it is best to just let the consensus decide what to do, and NOT to interfere with it by then attacking the resulting content (by kicking the dead horse and tagging it) that is approved by the consensus. That doesn't mean Ludwigs2 has to change his mind or beliefs about the situation, but it means he has to accept that Misplaced Pages is driven by consensus and is not to be used as a battleground to force one's own OR interpretations on the project. Vowing to not stop repeatedly explaining his opinion to us as long as he considers us to be wrong is simply a declaration to edit war and/or disrupt, whether it's in articles or talk pages. Some of the greatest disruption occurs on talk pages, not in articles. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

agree --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Note that I have some sympathy for the complaints several have expressed about the inclusion of certain ideas in the Gallup Poll (and repeated by the NSF), such as witches, reincarnation, etc. I just believe they are wrong for several reasons. I know that some of those terms have various interpretations and that it is unfair to accuse an innocent and scientifically naive believer in a religious belief of holding a pseudoscientific belief, when they may even be clear that their belief has no scientific support. Sure that's unfair, but that's life. They are being judged by their association with others who push those beliefs in a pseudoscientific manner. Several of those ideas that are mentioned can and should be viewed in different ways, and to make the NSF statement internally consistent, one should choose the meaning that most obviously fits the context, and not a meaning that makes their statement internally inconsistent.

For example, a rigid interpretation of witches (failing to recognize that the NSF is obviously not referring to the individual, but the power they claim) is fallacious and simplistic. Just because the NSF quotes Gallup's use of the single word "witches", when people who claim to be witches obviously exist, and then claiming the NSF is therefore wrong, is a cheap and shallow choice of definitions of "witch", being chosen in a wikilawyering fashion to discredit the NSF in an attempt to justify rejecting it as a RS. The NSF is obviously speaking of the belief in witchcraft as a paranormal power which is claimed by true witches (not your garden variety teenagers who like to see witchcraft movies and wear gothic attire). There are people who really believe they have such powers and who devote their lives to delving into such beliefs and ways of thinking. They are engaging in a religious and pseudoscientific endeavor, and those who believe that such powers exist are holding pseudoscientific beliefs. A simplistic and rigid interpretation of some of the mentioned ideas is getting people off-track. One should choose the meaning that creates internal consistency, and not seek to fault the NSF because one mistakenly/deliberately/wikilawyeringly/simplisticly chooses the most inconsistent meaning to make an invalid point. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:12, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• One approach to understand it is to interpolate meaning from an apparent contradiction. An alternative is to simply cite what they said and allow readers to draw their own conclusion about what was actually meant. L2 seems to favor the former, most others seem to (correctly) favor the latter. The NSF said what they said. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

FYI: the NSF report that uses the phrase "pseudoscience beliefs" cites this paper: "Losh SC, Tavani CM, Njoroge R, Wilke R, Mcauley M. 2003. What does education really do? Skeptical Inquirer 27(5):30-35" (reprinted at here) which provides both origin (CSI) and operating definition of the term: "Here, we define pseudoscience beliefs as cognitions about material phenomena that claim to be "science," yet use nonscientific evidentiary processes." - LuckyLouie (talk) 02:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

To come back to the issue of "wikilawyering": I brought that up because you are either not getting the spirit of the word or assuming things about Ludwigs2's motivations that I simply can't see. The NSF has counted things as "pseudoscience" that cannot possibly be pseudoscience because they lack the "pretends to be science" component. The normal way of dealing with this would have been to simply ignore the source. For some reason we now have two(?) RfCs about it, so that's no longer possible. Now the important thing to understand is this: When people try to resolve the (apparent or real) contradiction between the spirit and the letter of our rules by interpreting the rules in such a way that their spirit is preserved in the application, then that's not wikilawyering but instead the opposite of wikilawyering. Wikilawyering in this case would be the abuse of a straightforward application of the letter of our rules in order to break their spirit. The first can be seen as a valid and somewhat disguised application of WP:IAR; the second is just plain wrong.

It's absurd when people who are trying to resolve such a contradiction creatively by preserving the spirit of our rules accuse each other of wikilawyering just because they disagree about where exactly the creative interpretation needs to be applied. Hans Adler 06:48, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Hans, I appreciate the calm and reasoned way you are approaching this, and I agree in principle with what you say. Where we differ is that I and the majority of editors in both RfCs consider Ludwigs2's arguments to be OR and disruptive. "Creative interpretations" are the essence of OR. A straightforward understanding of the source and a straightforward application of policies avoids this problem.

The standard and simplistic definition of pseudoscience isn't wrong, but the NSF demonstrates that they have a deeper understanding of what is involved in how people end up holding such beliefs, which is the setting of the whole article: a lack of critical thinking and a lack of scientific knowledge. That leads people to believe in certain unscientific concepts. The Gallup Poll listed ten concepts, some of which (but not all) are beliefs, and labelled them "paranormal". The NSF then used that list and deliberately labelled them "pseudoscientific", and that beliefs in those concepts were "pseudoscientific beliefs". The NSF understands this better than we do, because we have traditionally held a rigid and legalistic interpretation attached to key words (the "only" definition just "has to" be open "claims" of "scientificness"). They aren't saying that the traditional definition is wrong, and they even use it, but they go much further. It's a "both" "and" situation, not an "either" "or" one. We can learn from the NSF. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring by Ludwigs2

He is now deleting the reference from the lead. His latest whopper is "nobody really believes in ghosts anyway." Xanthoxyl 09:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you believed in ghosts. I apologize for any insult to your perspective. --Ludwigs2 09:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Very silly... you can do better than that L2 --Salimfadhley (talk) 12:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

This is going to have to go through DR. A RfC/U is probably the best first venue. Both Ludwigs2 and Dbachmann deserve bans for their behavior, and Dbachmann should be desysopped. The one advantage to waiting is that the evidence is piling up. I'm going to move these comments up on this page. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Kokoro (vegetable)

I saw your recent edit to this article, and think it is incorrect. The statement "Wild kokoro yams are used as an ingredient in progesterone cremes for women, which are claimed to eliminate problems associated with menstruation and menopause" is backed up by a plausible source, and there are many similar sources. I assume that Kokoro, LLC is telling the truth when they say they use wild yams to derive progesterone, since this is a common method of manufacture, and they certainly make the claim. Whether their creme actually does any good is a different question. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

My edit was mostly concerned with sourcing. Curezone is a deprecated site that violates WP:ELNO. We need better sources. Please find them. While I didn't touch the next reference, anything sourced to Christiane Northrup is potentially dubious. It should be possible to find a better source. Note that all scientific and medical claims should pass the standards for such sources established at WP:MEDRS. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

You clearly know more about which sources are good and which are not - this is not an area I know anything about. A book search on wild yam progesterone gets many hits, many with limited previews, but I have no idea which are acceptable. The point is not whether or not the cremes are actually useful, or whether progesterone derived from wild yams is better than progesterone from other sources, both of which seem dubious to me, just to point out wild yams can be a source and various companies advertise the fact that their products are derived from wild yams and claim benefits, which is clearly true. Any advice? Aymatth2 (talk) 18:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand. Let me take a look around and see if I can find something. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

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Your note

I made the following comment on Crum375's talk page.

Hi Crum. I notice that you have reverted a revert. You may not have realized that only one minute before your revert, Bifurga had reverted several edits (actual changes of wording) made by QuackGuru, all of which were unsourced and undiscussed. By contrast, mine were pretty much only references to the Psi ArbCom case, from which the content came, with some minor formatting.

If you'll look at my edits you'll see that they should be pretty uncontroversial. This is a policy page where references to other policies, and even to the ArbCom cases which spawned the content, is helpful information. I added the four numbers for convenience because the ArbCom really did create these four groupings and they are often casually referred to by number, but the numbering isn't official. With this numbering it will be much easier to refer to them by number when discussing the four groupings. This will help to avoid misunderstandings because the numbers will actually be there on the NPOV policy page.

I suspect you saw a bunch of undiscussed changes and reverted without realizing that an intervening revert had fixed the addition of potentially controversial content by QG. Your revert then got rid of my uncontroversial and constructive edits. After looking at my edits, if you still think they are problematic, please explain so I can understand and avoid problems in the future. I hope you will restore those references. I know better than to touch the NPOV policy page (and other policy pages) with anything that might be controversial without discussing it first. I've been there and done that ;-) -- Brangifer (talk) 00:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Which led to this thread here.

Hi BullRangifer, I watch that page (as well as most policy pages) pretty closely, and don't make edits blindly. I believe your changes need to gain a broad consensus on talk. I prefer to discuss the matter there, but just to let you know, in principle, we should avoid making links or references from policy pages to ArbCom or their decisions, since they are not the ones who make policy, the community does. Also, they are supposed to base their decisions on our policies, and if we base our policies on their decisions, we risk going into an infinite loop.:) Crum375 (talk) 00:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

I basically agree that our (the community's) decisions are the ultimate source of policy, but it's a fact that this particular piece of policy was based on an ArbCom decision, and that ArbCom decisions do in fact help to form and influence the creation and modification of policy. Their decisions are based on existing policy and then extend them. Those new interpretations and applications then end up in our policies. Whatever the case, this has its origins in a specific ArbCom case.

Before Dec. 3, 2006, when those four groups were created by the ArbCom decision, the word "pseudoscience" was only mentioned here. The four ArbCom groups and links to their origin were first added to the WP:NPOV/FAQ policy page on March 15, 2007, and here's what it looked like.

It took quite awhile before the content was moved from the WP:NPOV/FAQ policy page to the main NPOV page on Feb. 12, 2009. It's interesting to look at the version when it was transferred.

Am I still wrong to add those refs? Do they really hurt anything? -- Brangifer (talk) 02:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

It is fine, and even recommended, to consider previous ArbCom rulings and statements (as well as inputs from other sources) when making policy, but those discussions should remain on the talk page, not become part of the policy. By inserting ArbCom rulings inside the policy page, we create an appearance of policies being driven by ArbCom, where in fact it's the other way around. But again, this should be discussed on the talk page, as should any significant change to the policy. Crum375 (talk) 02:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Fortunately I'm not proposing any change to the policy. It's quite good. Barring use of the refs, would the link to the ArbCom case which I added right under the heading still be okay? There was abundant reference to the ArbCom case in the original. What about the numbering? -- Brangifer (talk) 02:32, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

A link from a policy to ArbCom implies that ArbCom dictate policies, which they don't. In fact, as I noted above, it's the other way around, and ArbCom can and do link to policies all the time. If policies link to ArbCom, it creates a circular reference, which we need to avoid. Crum375 (talk) 02:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I concede your point based on your reasoning. What about the numbering and mention of "four" guidelines, without mention of ArbCom? It would really help when discussing this policy. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:56, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

If you'd like to make changes to a core policy, it makes sense to propose it on the talk page and gain consensus. Crum375 (talk) 03:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Definitely, but I'm not proposing to change policy. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:12, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

If you don't change the policy, i.e. don't edit the policy page, then there is nothing to discuss. Crum375 (talk) 03:24, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

So minor formatting is "changing policy"? Okay, I'll ask on the talk page. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Talk NPOV

with respect to this: I stand by my previous comments on the page, and I think the RfC/U is completely in order. If you'd like to discuss the matter with me, please keep it in user-space where it belongs, or wait until the case is opened and we can discuss it there. --Ludwigs2 18:56, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

You know just as well as I that your proposed RfC/U is just revenge for you losing the RfC cases. You have failed to convince me and likewise numerous other editors. You live in a glass house and are definitely not innocent regarding personal attacks and incivility. If you were perfect you'd have a slightly better case. Starting an RfC/U would only result in a shitfest which would only cause irritation and more disruption, as well as draw the attention of far more editors to your behavior. It might hurt me a bit, but you have much more to lose, and Dbachmann even more. You would at the very least be topic banned or even banned, and Dbachmann desysopped, since I would continue all the way to ArbCom to ensure that Dbachmann stopped setting such a bad example. I'd rather see you just drop the stick and walk away without any types of bans. Let the consensus rule. It never was against you personally. I can understand that you aren't satisfied, but Misplaced Pages works in this manner. The solution to what you perceive to be an "imperfect consensus" (such things do occur) is not to fight the consensus and attack its supporters (myself), but to change policy. You have a right to do that. If policy gets changed, then I'll abide by it. Right now I happen to have it on my side.

Please just drop this and let's all get back to constructive editing. If you'll stop now I won't seek to have you banned, and I'll try to not be so paranoid. I'll even seek to end the discussions with an announcement that we have agreed to settle our differences privately. I'm putting some very good weed from my stash into the peace pipe. Are you willing to light it and smoke it with me? (Actually I dropped pot in 1973, but that's another story. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Brangifer, I will tell you one last time: This is serious. You attacked me with lies and did not withdraw them when challenged; in fact you repeated them. You engaged in character assassination against Unomi and continued after my very clear warning. I believe you did similar things with Stmrlbs, although I don't remember the details. And you are behaving in a similar way against Ludwigs2 and Dbachmann now.

If anybody is going to be banned then it's you. Do you remember Orangemarlin? This was his last edit but one. This is what my talk page looked like at the time.

Perhaps you wonder what happened to him? So do I. But I caught his first sockpuppet, see User talk:SciMedKnowledge. I never got a response to my email, and he never edited after I sent it.

Then there is the case of Ottava Rima. In contrast to you he was a really prolific content producer, and he had (or has?) a lot more wiki friends than you do. Like you he thought he was blameless, and he was simply surrounded by idiots who attacked him for no reason. After a great and long drawn-out theatre performance at Arbcom he was banned for a year. Basically this was for claiming all the time that he was right when he was wrong and attacking people for no good reason. I don't think we need Arbcom in your case. I am confident we will handle it on the level of RfC/U.

You can prevent this by convincing us that it's not necessary. You would have to convince us that you finally understand what is wrong about your behaviour and that it has to stop. You would have to make a clear commitment to changing your behaviour.

I am not sure that you are even able to change your behaviour, so it seems more efficient to me to go straight to RfC/U. But it's up to you. Perhaps you can prove me wrong. Hans Adler 19:47, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Brangifer, please inform me if/when the RfC/U against you is opened. I haven't studied this particular issue, but I'm sure Ludwigs2 should be restricted for non-constructive edits, whether or not against a specific policy. Your edit does seem to be uncivil, but there is certainly provocation. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Arthur. I'll notify you if necessary. I don't claim to be perfect and I have crossed the civility line at times. In that we're all guilty. Hans is laboring with me and he seems to be knocking this through my thick skull. I have apologized to all concerned except Dbachmann, who should know better, and who should contact me on his own as his case is different. I haven't ever implied any socking or meatpuppetry, but have restricted my comments to describing the actual situation, one which is supported by many others. If I've gone too far, then he can approach me with precise quotes and diffs and I'll likely apologize if I've been unnecessarily harsh. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:29, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Hans, I don't know what happened to OrangeMarlin. He just disappeared and we lost another MD as an editor here. I wasn't aware that he had created a sock. That's just wrong if it really happened! Did you start an SPI and get him blocked? You should. I hate socks. As to Otava, I've seen the username but never followed their "career" here, so I don't really know anything much about them.

As to my paranoia about socks and meatpuppetry, it has good historical reasons. What's unfortunate is that, while many times it has led to the unraveling of sock farms, it has at times been wrong, and I have and will continue to apologize for that. I'm going to apologize to all of you for how it has affected you personally. You, Hans, are a good scientist who makes good contributions here. Strmlbs happens to make very good work that will help Misplaced Pages software to work better, IIRC. Ludwigs2 will just have to bear the full responsibility for his actions, rather than being able to partially allow my suspicions to shift some of the blame onto Levine2112. I'm now convinced that Ludwigs2 is acting on his own and I've dropped all mention of Levine2112, and have no intention of reviving them. I'm sorry I brought it up in the first place and apologize to Ludwigs2 for doing so. We need to keep our differences between us, and I shouln't have brought Levine2112 into the picture. As to Dbachmann, no one has been able to provide a motivation for why he's been doing as he's been doing, but he seems to have drawn back and I'm not interested in pursuing the matter. His involvment has been considered odd by those who have emailed me. If he has some legitimate complaint against me, I'd rather deal with it separately from this thread. I accept and understand that you all have been very irritated by my paranoia and will try to curb it in the future. I have been slow to understand this because it's been clouded in debate and controversy, which doesn't make me think clearer about interpersonal relationships. Instead it only makes me focus on the logic of the discussion. Your repetition here has made it more clear. Thanks. Your persistence on this point is paying off! Maybe there's some hope for me after all. When truly convinced of something, I'm capable of changing behavior and even fundamental beliefs. (How do you think I changed from an ultra conservative preacher's kid into a skeptic and atheist? That has taken several very profound emotional crises and severe changes of pretty much all my belief systems. That's a grueling process, but I had to follow my conscience and the scientific evidence.) That doesn't mean we agree on the other matters, but I'll try to stay on topic. Okay? Will you join the circle and smoke the peace pipe with me? You can always point to this conversation if I get careless and thus thoroughly embarrass me. I am forgetful, but not a malicious or bad person. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

So it's all just caused by sock puppet paranoia? I don't believe you. This doesn't explain your very problematic relation to truth. (See my ANI comment.)

Thanks for telling me about your history, by the way. Being a conservative preacher's kid explains a lot: You are treating science as a religion, and that's a problem. Science doesn't deserve to be abused in this way. Hans Adler 20:31, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

So much for AGF. I am telling the truth. I'm sorry you can't put yourself in my shoes like I've been trying to set myself in your shoes (above). It's helped me to understand how what I say can hurt you. I'm sorry about that. I have no idea what you mean be a "problematic relation to truth". You'll have to be more specific. An AGF would attribute any descrepancy to poor communication, misunderstanding, etc.. You know we have a history of near impossibility to understand each other. We may not be able to overcome that, but I think we should try. It can never happen if we assume bad faith. As to science, it is definitely not my religion, but the scientific method is often the best method we currently have to get closer to something that approaches the truth about falsifiable reality. That doesn't deny that there are things that can't be measured, but my relation to such matters is on a different level which I clearly understand to be unverified belief. I'm a bit more complicated than to make science my religion. For example, I don't just believe and accept the latest research at face value. It has to stand the test of time and get reproduced, especially if it contradicts existing knowledge. I am neither the first one to hop on a new trend, nor the last one to give it up. Whatever the case, I still hope we can put this behind us. That takes a will and effort on both sides. I'm open. --Brangifer (talk) 02:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

brangifer - why should I take revenge for an argument I'm winning? If you want to accuse me of an emotional state, well fine, here it is: I am seriously pissed off at you for insulting me, lying about me, misrepresenting me and my position, campaigning to get me blocked, and etc, and etc, in dozens upon dozens (if not actually hundreds) of documentable instances over the past month or two. The only thing more outrageous than your actions is the fact that you continue to think that this behavior will work on me, as evidenced by your comments above. point of information: I never give in to bullying. it's a personal principle that has earned me more bruises and garnered me more respect than just about anything else I can think of.

But whatever... I am going to lay out the very, very long list of diffs of your problematic comments and behaviors towards me, and then I'll give you the opportunity to explain how even 1/10th could be considered justifiable, and leave it up to others to judge you. I'm sure that you and your buds will take the opportunity to turn it all back on me: that's typical behavior, which I've experienced several times before, and will likely experience again. However - and this is the point you all keep missing, incidentally - I don't care. This problem is not going to be resolved by virtue of you bad-mouthing me. --Ludwigs2 22:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this about winning to you? If you're winning, then why are the majority of editors against you? This is about the verifiability of an NSF statement, not about whether it is true or not. That's policy. Now please provide just one single instance where I have lied about you. I doubt you can do it. Upon examination it will likely be some example of poor communication or something taken out of context. Please provide the exact quote and diff, since context is important. If I've been imprecise, which is entirely possible, then I'll refactor and apologize, because I have never knowingly attempted to be deceptive or lie about you. I have told things as I have seen them, just as you have done. This is the first time I can think of where you have actually accused me of lying about you. You haven't mentioned a single instance, so I don't know what you're referring to. I'll excuse the hyperbole about "hundreds", as you admit to being in an emotional state. If my standing firm and unrockable on a solid consensus, and not engaging in OR to weasel myself around accepting a statement which I don't like (I'm describing your behavior) is bullying, I guess you'll just believe whatever you want to believe. I won't give in to your bullying. Why should I when a majority of editors assure me that I'm on the right end of this debate? My comments describing your negative and disruptive actions (what you call "badmouthing") won't convict you. It is those disruptive actions that will, while my adherance to policy and a solid consensus will provide me a certain amount of protection from your attacks. You have come up on the short end in two RfCs and you just can't drop the stick and walk away. It's your decision. The gun is still pointing at your own foot. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:07, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Moved from NPOV talk as a talk page violation and gross personal ad hominem attack

Hans, let's deal with this here. You wrote:

Oh, that is what you are driving at. I see. So you are making the same distinction that you made (under your former user name "Fyslee") in your character assassination campaign against Unomi:

You knew that the fishing expedition against Unomi had ended with the result: "Checkuser evidence shows no IP-relationship nor any geographic relationship nor any other checkusery sort of evidence between the three candidates." You knew that the admin who had blocked Unomi as a sockpuppet had apologised for the error afterwards. Yet here is what you wrote on ANI:

"You were User_talk:Unomi#Indefinitely_blocked_-_apparent_sockpuppet_of_User:Immortale and a CU was indeed performed, which you did slip through. See case again."

Later you defended this behaviour as perfectly OK. Things are beginning to make sense now. Apparently you believe that anything goes so long as what one says can be interpreted as only extremely and intentionally misleading rather than literally false.

Here is news for you: That's not how the world works. When you work actively on making people believe something that is not true, then you are lying. Hans Adler 20:31, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

What the heck does this have to do with the current situation? Nothing at all! It doesn't have anything to do with sourcing policies, pseudoscience, or NSF. Nothing at all. Digging up old things unrelated to this case isn't helpful. You have an awful grudge against me. Above I have extended apologies and promises to do better, and this is your response? That's not honorable, but warlike. Instead of taking the high road you're going about as low as possible. I am truly surprised. I thought higher of you. You are actively seeking to stir up trouble, rather than to lessen disruption and strife. That's very unwikipedian.

Thanks for providing the link to the old Unomi SPI and CU cases. I had totally forgotten them. The only reason I made that comment and linked to the CU case was that Unomi denied ever having a CU run, so I provided the link to the actual CU case to correct the erroneous statement made by Unomi. That was my interpretation of the situation. Sure the block was finally undone, and apparenly properly so. What led up to the block was standard procedure in such cases. Many were very suspicious, and I was only one of them, yet you single me out as if I was somehow a bad person for sharing the same suspicions for the same reasons with many others. George William Herbert shared those suspicions and detailed why they were legitimate and then carried out a block.

Newbies are always at a distinct disadvantage when they suddenly appear with very advanced knowledge of the history behind disputes and how to edit here. Their modus operandi shows they aren't true newbies. If they then engage in certain suspicious behaviors, suspicions are raised. We are constantly attacked by socks, vandals, and other types of dubious editors. There is hardly a day where I don't undo several examples of vandalism and bump into possible socks. My motives in the YouKnowMe/Unomi case were no different than those of many others who were suspicious of Unomi, whose very username automatically seems designed to raise suspicion. It's a flashing red light held in front of our faces every single day that says "YouKnowMe" (that's the English pronunciation of Unomi). Why was this new user (who acted like a very experienced editor) announcing that we "knew them", unless they were a sock of someone who should know who was taunting us? Their behavior then raised even more suspicions. I'm sure that I wasn't the only one left scratching their head after the CU didn't confirm the charge. The whole thing was regretable, but very understandable and forgivable when one assumes good faith, as required by policy and good ethics. The same has been stated by Arthur Rubin above, regarding any incivility by myself. It has been provoked by the behavior and attacks of others. No one is innocent, and only the innocent have a right to accuse others of behavior they have not engaged in themselves. Such is not the case here. Ludwigs2 has done the same to me as he accuses me of doing. It's totally hypocritical to start an RfC/U.

As to your last comment, I'll explain something. In English (I don't know about German), a lie is an untruth deliberately told in an effort to deceive. By contrast, an untruth is something that isn't accurate, but which is told by one who sincerely believes it to be true. Do you see the difference? It's a matter of motives. They may be mistaken, but they aren't lying. The first is morally reprehensible, while the second is a result of human frailty. Accusing me of lying is wrong. Your failure to AGF is a policy violation and you're not even slightly attempting to follow it. Please stop. You can do better. -- Brangifer (talk) 08:03, 14 March 2010 (UTC)