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Inauguration of the talk page

I wanted to inaugurate this talk page with a question: Is there a list of priorities in the TF that we can address? I am particularly referring to Kedadi, because he has done an excellent job with the maintenance of the TF project in the last 3 months when I have been extremely active. --sulmues (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi sulmues, how is it going? I guess we should see ways how to upgrade the status of TF to a real WikiProject. Then, we have to tag as much articles as possible with {{WikiProject Albania}} and add them to the public watchlist to track recent changes easily. For now, these to things popped in my mind. Thank you. kedadial 22:42, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

It'll be organically needed because adding articles to the list won't suffice.--sulmues (talk) 05:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Kedadi, in the meantime, how can we reorganize better this page? I think that the "To do list" should be placed as much on top as possible. What are your thoughts? --sulmues (talk) 13:50, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Malësori

Unreferenced BLP - wondered in anyone could find sources in Albanian for this muscian and add them to the article. Thanks. Power.corrupts (talk) 14:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for checking this page. Gave reference to his personal website. --sulmues (talk) 14:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Topics and sources

We need to focus on topics and sources. I will bring many sources in this talk page then it's up to you guys to use them. Aigest (talk) 10:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Archaeology

• New publications regarding Archaeology in Albania after 2000. We should find the books or magazines mentioned by the author which can be used later in various articles.Link here Ancient West & East, Volume 4, Issue 1 Volume 4 of Ancient West & East, No 1 Gocha Tsetskhladze Publisher BRILL, 2005 ISBN 9004141766, 9789004141766 Length 256 pages Aigest (talk) 10:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
• A summary of Myzafer Korkuti work can be found here
• Gjerak Karaiskaj here Aigest (talk) 10:40, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Litterature

• As brought here by Aigest: is an excellent source where books out of copyright have been brought in for free. I can't thank you enough Aigest! --sulmues (talk) 13:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Albanian language

• A summary by Shaban Demiraj link The Indo-European languages Routledge language family descriptions Authors Anna Giacalone Ramat, Paolo Ramat Editors Anna Giacalone Ramat, Paolo Ramat Edition illustrated

Publisher Taylor & Francis, 1998 ISBN 041506449X, 9780415064491 Length 526 pages Aigest (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

• Cimochowski, W. "Prejardhja e gjuhës shqipe," BUShT 1958:2.37-53. Supports Illyrian kinship of Albanian. (see Hamp 1963)
• Cimochowski, Waclaw. Des recherches sur la toponomastique de l'Albanie. LP VIII, 1960.(short version at Hamp 1963)
• Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams Edition: illustrated Published by Taylor & Francis, 1997 ISBN 1884964982, 9781884964985 link here
• Eric P. Hamp The position of Albanian in Ancient Indo-European Dialects Publisher University of California Press link here
• Shaban Demiraj Gjuhesi ballkanike here the link
• Victor A. Friedman (vfriedm@midway.uchicago.edu) Albanian Grammar Victor A. Friedman A version of this grammar was published in

Studies on Albanian and Other Balkan Language by Victor A. Friedman Peja: Dukagjini. 2004.the link here Aigest (talk) 15:15, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Origin of Albanians

As for historians :

• The book of Ducellier is quite on the topic (including author opinion) in detailed manner L'Albanie entre Byzance et Venice, Xe-XVe siecles (Albania between Byzantium and Venice, X-XV centuries), a summary of the book here .
• The book of Hammond deals in detailed manner with the topic (including author opinion) a whole chapter Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas By Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond Edition: illustrated Published by Noyes Press, 1976 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Jun 24, 2008ISBN 0815550472, 9780815550471 link for the book here and an extract here
• The book of Malcolm is quite on the topic (including author opinion) in detailed manner (Chapter 2 Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs p 22-40) Kosovo: A Short History by Noel Malcolm 492 pages Publisher: Harper Perennial (June 10, 1999) Language: English ISBN-10: 0060977752 ISBN-13: 978-006097775 a link to the book here and an extract here
• The book of Fines is on the general topic of Byzant and deals with Albanian genesis and the period they appear (including author opinion) The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century By John Van Antwerp Fine Edition: reissue, illustrated Published by University of Michigan Press, 1991 ISBN 0472081497, 9780472081493 (Traditionally scholars have seen the Dacians as ancestors of the modern Rumanians and Vlachs and the Illyrians as the proto-Albanians. Perhaps (keeping in mind the frequent ethnic mixing as well as cultural and linguistic evolution) we should retain this view. However, from time to time these views have been challenged, very frequently for modern nationalistic reasons (page 10))
• The book of Sedlar is on the general topic of Byzant and deals with Albanian genesis and the period they appear East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500 By Jean W. Sedlar Edition: illustrated Published by University of Washington Press, 1994 ISBN 0295972904, 9780295972909 (

Slavic settlement thus greatly reduced the territory alvaiable to the partially Romanized Illyrians and Thracians, who formerly had occupied a wide area in the Balkans. Apparently most of this indigenous population became absorbed into the Slavic flood leaving only a remnant in the mountainous and largely inaccessible terrain of Albania... Presumably the Albanians of the 11th century and afterward, were descendants of the ancient Illyrians, pushed into the mountains by the invading Slavs and forced to adopt a pastoral life-style. The continuity between some ancient Illyrian sites and those later occupied by Albanians suggest that this was the case. (page 7-8))

• The book of Treadgold is on the general topic of Byzant and deals with Albanian genesis and the period they appear (including author opinion)A history of the Byzantine state and society By Warren T. Treadgold Edition: illustrated Published by Stanford University Press, 1997 ISBN 0804726302, 9780804726306 (the apparent survival of (Indo-European) Illyrian as modern Albanian seems to be partly to the Albanians' isolation in rugged terrain, partly to their living in a borderland between Greek and Latin where the two languages diluted each other's influence. (page 921))
• The book of Schevill is on the general topic of Balkan and deals with Albanian genesis and the period they appear (including author opinion) The history of the Balkan Peninsula By Ferdinand Schevill Edition: reprint Published by Ayer Publishing, 1971 ISBN 0405027745, 9780405027741 (but Illyrian, though its area contracted more and more, manifested a certain vitality and continued to maintain itself. Loang after the Roman period, throughout the middle Age, it held sway in the inaccesible valleys of the west, which came to be designated as Albania; and in Albania, under the name Albanian, the old Illyrian dialect actually holds its place today. True it is a modest place since at most something like two million people, and these perhaps the most backward in th epeninsula and in Europe, speak Albanian, but they have the distinction-such as it is- of being the last remnants of the old Illyrians. (page 34))

As for the Linguists:

• Fortson favors Illyrian albanian (makes sense historically and geographically, while direct link Albanian to Illyrian or Dacian or Thracian is likewise unstable since there are not enough data from these old languages) interestingly he uses the term contradicted by Athenean "The widespread assertion that it is the modern-day descendant of Illyrian, spoken in much the same region during classical times, makes geographic and historical sense, but it is linguistically unstable since we know so little about Illyrian....the thracian and dacian hypothesis are likewise unstable. page 390 Indo-European language and culture: an introduction By Benjamin W. Fortson Edition: 5, illustrated Published by Wiley-Blackwell, 2004 ISBN 1405103167, 9781405103169

• Woodard favoring Illyrian-Albanian (doesn't even mention thracian or dacian) The modern Albanian language it has been conjectured, is descended directly from ancient Illyrian. Its possible affiliation with the scantily attested Illyrian, though not unreasonable on historical and linguistic grounds, can be considered little more than conjecture barring the discovery of additional Illyrian evidence. (page 8) The Ancient Languages of Europe By Roger D. Woodard Edition: illustrated Published by Cambridge University Press, 2008 ISBN 0521684951, 9780521684958

• J. P. Mallory and Douglas Q. Adams. supporting Illyrian-Albanian the major IE scholars dealing with the origins of the Albanians in a detailed manner in a chapter of their book The origin of Albanians The origins of the Albanians cannot be separated from the problem of assigning their linguistic ancestors to one of the three main groups of the Balkans:Dacians, Thracians, or Illyrians. Although there are some lexicla items that appear to be shared between Romanian (and by extension Dacian) and Albanian, by far the strongest connections can be argued between Albanian and Illyrian. The latter was attested in what is historically regarded as Albanian territory since our records of Illyrian occupation. The loanwords from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of Albanian must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbours. As the Illyrians occupied Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans. Finally as Shaban Demiraj argues the ancient Illyrian placenames of teh region have achieved their current form through the natural application of the phonetic rules governing Albanian eg Durrachion>Alb Durrës(with Albanian initial accent) or Illyrian Aulona> Alb Vlonë`Vlorë (with Albanian rhotacism in Tosk) (page 11) Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams Edition: illustrated Published by Taylor & Francis, 1997 ISBN 1884964982, 9781884964985

Less detailed just an opinion of others

• Albanians is said to be the surviving descendant of the ancient Illyrian language, although its lexicon is largely derived from languages belonging to other groups. (page 223) Language and nationalism in Europe By Stephen Barbour, Cathie Carmichael Edition: illustrated Published by Oxford University Press, 2000 ISBN 0198236719, 9780198236719

• Traditionally, Albanian is identified as the descendant of Illyrian (page 1874) Sociolinguistics: an international handbook of the science of language and society By Ulrich Ammon, Norbert Dittmar, Klaus J. Mattheier, Peter Trudgill Edition: 2 Published by Walter de Gruyter, 2006 ISBN 3110184184, 9783110184181

Archaeologists

• Evans opinionAlbanian are the true modern representatives of the Illyrians. Ancient Illyria By Arthur Evans, Bejtullah D. Destani, J. J. Wilkes # Hardcover: 256 pages Publisher: I. B. Tauris (April 3, 2007) ISBN-10: 1845111672 ISBN-13: 978-1845111670
• Stipčević opinion (the same as Evans) in his book, Iliri (2nd edition). Zagreb, 1989 (also published in Italian as Gli Illiri).

Other tertiary sources

• It is believed that modern Albanians are descended from the Illyrians. (page 19) Concise Encyclopaedia Of World History By Carlos Ramirez-Faria Published by Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 2007 ISBN 8126907754, 9788126907755
• Encyclopedia Britannica
• Encarta

As again for scholars specialized in social statistics (History, Data, Analyses) which show the majority opinion among scholars:

• Piotr Eberhardt, Jan Owsinski "Albanian are direct descendants of Illyrians" page 356 chapter Ethnic stucture of Albanians in the book Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth-Century Central-Eastern Europe: History, Data, Analysis By Piotr Eberhardt, Jan Owsinski Hardcover: 559 pages Publisher: M.E. Sharpe (March 2003) Language:

English ISBN-10: 0765606658 ISBN-13: 978-0765606655

Albanoi, Albanopolis, Albanians

The references

• William Martin Leake Contributor John Booth, Abraham John Valpy Researches in Greece, Published by Adamant Media Corporation, (2004) ISBN 1402156774, 9781402156779 (page 252) link
• Alexander A. Vasiliev History of the Byzantine Empire, 324-1453 Edition: 2, illustrated Published by Univ of Wisconsin Press, (1958) ISBN 0299809269, 9780299809263 (page 613) link
• Barbara Jelavich History of the Balkans: Eighteenth and nineteenth centuries Edition: reprint, illustrated Published by Cambridge University Press, (1983) ISBN 0521274583, 9780521274586 (page 25) link
• Anna Giacalone Ramat, Paolo Ramat The Indo-European languages Edition illustrated Published by Taylor & Francis, 1998 ISBN 041506449X, 9780415064491 (page 481) link
• Piotr Eberhardt, Jan Owsinski Ethnic groups and population changes in twentieth-century Central-Eastern Europe: history, data, analysis Edition: illustrated Translated by Jan Owsinski Published by M.E. Sharpe, (2003) ISBN 0765606658, 9780765606655 (page 356) link
• Benjamin W. Fortson Indo-European language and culture: an introduction: 5, Edition illustrated Published by Wiley-Blackwell, (2004) ISBN 1405103167, 9781405103169 (page 405) link
• Robert Elsie Albanian literature: a short history Centre for Albanian Studies (London, England) Published by I.B.Tauris, 2005 ISBN 1845110315, 9781845110314 (page 3-4) link
• Compiled by Icon Group International, Inc. Referring: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases Published by ICON Group International, Inc., 2008 ISBN 0546661645, 9780546661644 (page 451) link Aigest (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

19th and 20th century's articles

I understand that we have excellent contributors for the antiquity period and also for the middle ages. However I wanted to emphasize the importance of starting to improve 19th and 20th century's articles. The following articles are the most relevant according to me:

• Rilindja Kombetare

Sources

1. The history of the Balkan Peninsula By Ferdinand Schevill, link
2. The Diplomacy of the Great War Author Arthur Bullard Publisher BiblioBazaar, LLC, 2009 ISBN 1110005296, 9781110005291 Length 360 pages link
3. The Balkans since 1453 Authors Leften Stavros Stavrianos, Traian Stoianovich Edition 2, illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000

ISBN 1850655510, 9781850655510 Length 970 pages link From this article we should have a list of the Rilindas figures. Dating back we should have articles on Dhaskal Todri and Naum Veqilharxhi. In addition we should have Jani Vreto and all the participants of the Central Committee for Defending Albanian Rights.

• Prizren League
• Communist Albania
• National Personalities, recepients of important titles such as
• People's Hero of Albania

And of course arts:

• People's Artist of Albania
• Merited Artist of Albania--sulmues (talk) 18:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I will check tomorrow for sources on these topics. Aigest (talk) 20:50, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Renaissance

• Some Rilindas and Albanian Orthodox schools Albanianism and other topic covered in this book Late Ottoman society: the intellectual legacy Volume 3 of SOAS/RoutledgeCurzon studies on the Middle East Author Elisabeth Özdalga Editor Elisabeth Özdalga Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 2005 ISBN 0415341647, 9780415341646 Length 348 pages
• The role of Albanians in Jeuneturk revolution is covered in this book (some other Rilindas figures and actions there) link the book Preparation for a revolution: the Young Turks, 1902-1908 Studies in Middle Eastern history Author M. Şükrü Hanioğlu Publisher Oxford University Press US, 2001 ISBN 019513463X, 9780195134636 Length 538 pages
• Full work of Pashko Vasa here explained link also other Albanian figures as well in this book The crescent and the eagle: Ottoman rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913 Volume 10 of Library of Ottoman studies Author George Walter Gawrych Edition illustrated Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845112873, 9781845112875 Length 260 pages Aigest (talk) 16:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Article names with no titles

One thing that has alwawys concerned me is that some articles that relate to Albanian personalities have nobiliary or military titles in them and I have removed some. For instance it should be Pashko Vasa and not Vaso Pasha.

In general I tend to move the articles's names away from the nobiliary or military titles such as bey or pasha such as in Iliaz Vrioni, because most of them were somehow relinquished with the end of the Ottoman Empire, in addition, they are not indicative of the personality. Furthermore, in wikipedia I have seen that they are not usually written (see Byron for instance). Moreover they have a nice Albanian sound and are not confused with some Turkish personalities.

However in the case of the Qyprilliu vizirs, or Egyptian rulers such as Muhammed Ali, who share an Albanian origin, there will be an exception, because they don't come out as Albanian personalities, but as Turkish or Egyptian personalities with an Albanian origin, which will be explained in a second paragraph as per MOS. Hence their titles can be kept and no edit warring should be done with the Turkish or Egyptian editors on that, as it seems that that is the consensus for those projects.

As a result, in our Albania TF, I propose that we reach an agreement in removing the titles by taking a vote and counting them. Please help me with your thoughts when you vote. I think we don't need to see Ismail bey Qemali, or Turhan Pashe Permeti, or Esad Pashe Toptani, but simply Ismail Qemali, Turhan Përmeti, Esad Toptani, and Pashko Vasa, with as much Albanian sound as possible. Thank you! --sulmues (talk) 14:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Pro removing titles

1. Pro: Per above.--sulmues (talk) 14:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
2. Pro: Names without grades (with the exception of Skanderbeg I suppose:). Aigest (talk) 16:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment That goes without saying.--sulmues (talk) 07:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

1. Pro: + my support. kedadial 16:50, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
2. Pro: Support.--— ZjarriRrethues —  14:51, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Against removing titles

Priorities of the Outline of Albania article

In the Outline of Albania, I think that the two most important areas that require coverage are

1. Judicial System of Albania
2. Environment of Albania.--sulmues (talk) 14:47, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Lahuta e Malcís

Lahuta e Malcís is a very important part of Albanian culture, literature and mythology and I think that with the appropriate effort a really great article can be written. At first I think sources should be listed here so they can be easily accessible to anyone.--— ZjarriRrethues —  14:44, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of having the article in the original title in gheg Albanian, inclusive of the accentuated "í" . Of course, we'll make all the redirects from the tosk or official language to the "Lahuta e Malcís" article.

I know that Robert Elsie employed three years to translate it into English "see interview". He had translated it by 2003 and published it in 2005. You can review his introduction "here". I have come accross some Misplaced Pages articles that have been copied from his website (by obtaining permission). ZjarriRrethues, you could do the same thing and send him an email (it's in his website), asking permission to use parts of the introduction to write a Misplaced Pages article. --sulmues (talk) 01:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I think we should have that title for the article because it was originally published under that title.--— ZjarriRrethues —  16:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles to write

I started a list with Albanian related article needed to be written. Feel free to add more.--— ZjarriRrethues —  21:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I made some changes, hopefully you'll agree. --sulmues (talk) 07:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Great!--— ZjarriRrethues —  16:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Greek Minority in Albania

Results of PBDNJ (Unity Party for Human Rights) during elections in Albania from 1992 to 2001, here (I noticed that the results are always less than 3% every time) link this book is great also about Albanian politics Political parties of Eastern Europe: a guide to politics in the post-Communist era Author Janusz Bugajski Edition illustrated Publisher M.E. Sharpe, 2002 ISBN 1563246767, 9781563246760 Length 1055 pages Aigest (talk) 16:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

WW II References

Great Books

• Albania at war, 1939-1945 Author Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999 ISBN 1850655316, 9781850655312 Length338 pages Here the link
• Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945 Author Owen Pearson Edition illustrated, annotated Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845111044, 9781845111045 Length 512 pages here the link Aigest (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Albania article

We can use this book for references

• World and Its Peoples Volume 12 of World and Its Peoples: Europe, Marshall Cavendish Corporation, ISBN 0761478833, 9780761478836 Publisher Marshall Cavendish, 2009 ISBN 0761479031, 9780761479031 link . I believe its number are correct and can be used in Albania article. Aigest (talk) 11:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Albanian costumes

Albanian costumes through the centuries: origin, types, evolution nga Andromaqi Gjergji published by the University of Indiana.--— ZjarriRrethues —  14:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources on new article that I intend to write:

League of Albanian writers. Help please! --sulmues (talk) 18:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Article that should be written

Gjon Nikolle Kazazi, 18th century Albanian archbishop of Skopje. He discovered the Meshari of Gjon Buzuku. Article is warranted. --sulmues (talk) 19:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

National Autocephalous Albanian Church

See reference () and . --sulmues (talk) 21:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I know this subject in great detail, there are some articles in newspapers also.--— ZjarriRrethues —  12:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

An article about Nikollë Marku would be also interesting Nikollë Marku--— ZjarriRrethues —  12:38, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Especially the second link that I brought substantiates the claim that they are the true inheritants of the Fan Noli church. --sulmues (talk) 13:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Peqin and Abdurrahman Pasha

In Peqin, I am intrigued by what the article says on Abdurrahman Pasha. Could we write an article about him? I want to start improving the articles about the cities in Central Albania (Peqin, Shijak, Kavaje, Elbasan, Librazhd, Kruje, and, of course, Durres), and I found Peqin article extremely poor. To me Peqin is way bigger and more important than say Himara, but the latter has been written by a whole team of well experienced editors, whereas Peqin hasn't. --sulmues (talk) 13:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles to keep under our watchlist

• Ancient Epirus: Molossians, Thesprotians, Chaonians, Dodona, Pyrrhus of Epirus
• Despotate of Epirus
• Despotate of Arta

These articles have been worked by heavy POV and the Albanian archaeology has not been used at all. We'll get lots of POV reverting saying that the Albanian theories are fringe, but we have to present the findings of the Albanian archaeology in the English Misplaced Pages. --sulmues (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2010 (UTC)