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current event

ariel declaring itself a university august 2007, added in + name change. Amoruso 11:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

status has officially not changed, and ramifications of the name change still unclear. --Shuki 19:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

settlement this, settlement that

It's simply poor editing to reuse the same terms endlessly, besides the fact that here they are implied weasel word descriptors. I'm sure there is a better NPOV, linguistic, and professional way to state the fact that the educational institution has always been located in the same area. No one is denying it, please resist the urge to clutter up the article with it. I changed the word community to town, since Ariel was a town at that point, and community is otherwise vague or perhaps otherwise refers to a smaller residential organization of similar-interest people. As for 'country', it is simply misleading and purposeless, other than POV, to insist that 'country' in infobox is stated as Tiamut insists. --Shuki (talk) 22:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

How are they "weasel words"? And country only shows up in the location, not represented as an actual country. It shows up as "city, country" with here it being "Areil, Israeli occupied West Bank". The POV push here is to make it seem like this is in a "town" in Israel. It is not. It is in an Israeli settlement in the occupied West Bank. You could call that a "POV" but it is the "POV" of the overwhelming majority to the point that representing something else in its place is non-NPOV. nableezy - 23:02, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Ariel University

I understand the enthusiasm but it's not yet a university but another important step forward. Please resist the urge to give Nableezy a reason to rack up more edits in his position of enforcer of Israel. --Shuki (talk) 23:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Try to not mention my username. nableezy - 03:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

notable detail: "Two weeks ago, Avigdor Lieberman, the foreign minister and leader of the Yisrael Beiteinu Party, threatened to block all legislative proposals from Labor unless Ariel College’s upgrade was approved." 194.106.43.95 (talk) 15:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

university is in Israeli occupied territory

Therefor the category is correct: Its not pov when its the entire worldview that its occupied. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Palestinian territory cat

Shuki, nobody said this was a Palestinian institution. It is however in the Palestinian territories, specifically the West Bank. Please explain why you removed the cat. nableezy - 22:05, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Claiming it is in the PA territories is wrong (Area C) or otherwise misleading and false. The reader using the cat would assume that it is a PA institution. --Shuki (talk) 23:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

It says "Palestinian territories" which is what the West Bank is a part of. You have a severe misunderstanding of what Area C is, it is a part of the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 23:46, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

outside of Israel

Built by Israel, operated by Israelis, and the Israeli flag flies there. To say it is outside of Israel is a bit misleading and confusing to the reader. --Shuki (talk) 23:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Being built, operated, or having the flag of Israel does not mean it is in Israel. It is not misleading in the slightest, the only person misleading others here is you. nableezy - 23:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Did I edit the article to say it is in Israel? No. (though that is an issue of semantics anyways) But it is certainly not in the Palestinian Authority territories. Please stop the inconsistent random POV. --Shuki (talk) 08:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Please stop pushing your agenda. Ariel is in the West Bank, somewhere internationally recognised as part of the Palestinian Territories.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:43, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Did you notice how Shuki keeps adding "Authority" to "Palestinian territories"? Nobody said the PA controls Ariel, what we have said is that it is within the "Palestinian territories". That is not something that can be disputed. nableezy - 14:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

My agenda and WP is NPOV and I will push it as you should. Per Peter's claim, then we should be moving all cats of 'in Palestinian Territories' to the more NPOV '...in the West Bank'? Nableezy, what is wrong with that? The PA is beyond any doubt the only recognized ruling body of the Palestinians. Can't wait to see what you edit when your 24h are up at 23:45, 4 April 2010 --Shuki (talk) 15:29, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

So it is "NPOV" to pretend these places are not in occupied Palestinian territory? Or that the Golan is part of Israel? Come off it. nableezy - 16:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Nice dumb question. Why are you trying to provoke me? That's going back to your disruptive period. ANyway, NPOV might probably move all '...in Palestinian Territories' cats to '...in West Bank'. On all Israeli and Palestinian articles. Could you handle that? --Shuki (talk) 21:07, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, so long as those "in the West Bank" cats are subcats of "in the Palestinian territories" and not subcats of "in Israel". And it is not a dumb question, it was directly addressing to truly silly assertion that calling these places "in Israel" as you repeatedly have done is NPOV. nableezy - 21:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion located in the West Bank outside of the Green Line that marks the armistice lines between Israel and the Jordanian-held West Bank. is a rather obfuscated and verbose way of stating Israeli-occupied territory / occupied Palestinian territory, which is, imo, the NPOV and RS consensus descriptor we should be using. There is only 1 country which sees it differently, and to use their preferred verbiage runs afoul of WP:GEVAL. It is not pov pushing to advocate clear, accurate and widely accepted terminology. Unomi (talk) 20:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, some clear thinking from Unomi. The WP:LEAD is not the proper location for a political discussion. In fact, it should merely say 'this college is in Ariel' and then expand on all the issues later. I am not deny issues or trying to remove them from article. Whether territory is occupied or Palestinian or Jewish or Israeli is not the scope of this article. --Shuki (talk) 00:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

But you say it is "the largest Israeli public college" and link to Israel, implying it is inside of Israel. That is an extreme minority position that you assert as a fact without giving any space for the super-majority view. If you want to say it is the largest public university accredited by the Israeli Ministry of Education, or whatever, say that. Not what you are saying now. nableezy - 00:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Its not about scope of the article, this isn't a matter of theoretical discussion, it is the world consensus, giving any other impression regarding the status of its location is misleading and fails WP:GEVAL. Unomi (talk) 20:49, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again, the discussion runs in circles. We are not allowed to say College in Israel, and mentioning 'Israeli college' also is accused of being misleading. So instead we say 'college operated by residents of Israel thought the college is not in Israel and outside the armistice lines of 1949 after Israel came to a cease fire with Jordan and Jordan began occupying the West Bank'?

This is the international view, and more simple and direct for the reader. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The other version is much more detailed and accurate and less contentious. It looks like you want it to sound a certain way which will always trigger users to change and edit war about it. Makes no sense. Amoruso (talk) 21:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

• In my opinion located in the West Bank outside of the Green Line that marks the armistice lines between Israel and the Jordanian-held West Bank. is a rather obfuscated and verbose way of stating Israeli-occupied territory / occupied Palestinian territory, which is, imo, the NPOV and RS consensus descriptor we should be using. There is only 1 country which sees it differently, and to use their preferred verbiage runs afoul of WP:GEVAL. It is not pov pushing to advocate clear, accurate and widely accepted terminology. Unomi (talk) 20:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC) <-- Unomi (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

occupied-paletsinian Land is highly POV. there are many legal scholars who see the land as both disputed and under occupation. Nobody says the land must become part of the Paletsinian state. When you decided to add TERRITORIES, OCCUPIED, AND PALESTINIAN, you were pushing your POV. in fact, territories would have sufficed, west bank suffices, and occupied territories even suffices more. green line is the best though for NPOV and accuracy. Amoruso (talk) 22:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I can only refer you to the ICJ:

It absolutely is internationally recognized as occupied territory. Unomi (talk) 23:02, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

No. The ICJ can only make advisory opinions and recommendations. The wall case in particular has been criticized as political. On July 13, 2004, the U.S. House of Representatives passed Resolution HR 713 deploring:

Amoruso (talk) 00:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, people criticized it, I don't think many seriously disagrees with their findings though. If so, explain to me why 150 countries voted that Israel should obey the findings and why it is that the US State Dept, the UK Foreign office and of course the ECJ and UN refer to it as occupied territory? Binding or not doesn't make any difference, they were competent to make an assessment regarding extant laws and Israels compliance with it. Unomi (talk) 00:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The ICJ makes determinations on international law and advises the UN, either the SC or the GA. Hence the term "advisory". The ICJ was unanimous in saying that the territory is occupied. And quoting from a House resolution, something that truly is meaningless, doesnt help advance your position. nableezy - 02:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

It's more meaningful than the ICJ wall decision, i.e. political propaganda not taken seriously by anyone, largely antisemitic as well, that has almost no bearing on international law. The U.S. response explains it very well. Amoruso (talk) 02:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The highest judicial body in the world in dealing with international law says, flatly and unanimously, that the West Bank is occupied Palestinian territory and you say that is "political propaganda". And then you bring the US House of Representatives, an actual political body, passes a resolution that has absolutely no consequence anywhere on the planet, including the United States, and say that means something? Sorry. And yes, some countries felt the ICJ should not have heard the case, but there hasn't been any serious challenge to the basic aspects of the actual decision. But good luck making the argument the ICJ is "political" and the US House of Representatives is not. nableezy - 02:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

No. Both are political and both are regarded that way. Not a judicial body at all - it's a political organ of the UN that gives advisory opinions based on a political format. it's not a supreme court. THE UN, THE ICJ AND THE SEPARATION BARRIER: WAR BY OTHER MEANS. Gerald M. Steinberg is a good article to begin with. The referral itself rejected an earlier draft that asked for a limited legal opinion and it turned into a political one - so the mandate that was given to the ICJ along with its antisemitic Egyptian judge and the others, if you look at the original proposal, was a political one per se. in general though, nobody will take seriously the ICJ decision as having any legal authority or coherence over this issue. Posner found strong evidence that (1) ICJ judges favor the states that appoint them and that (2) judges favor states whose wealth level is close to that of the their own states. I'm not interested in continuing any discussions with you.... just try to calm down your extreme POV bias. The accepted legal position about these territories (Judea and Samaria) is that Israel's rights are more of simply an occupant, because Jordan and Egypt's actions were illegal to begin with. There are many references to this fact. It does not mean, that the relative human rights provisions do not apply (Israeli courts' opinion), but occupation is definitely inaccurate. Amoruso (talk) 03:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I've redacted your BLP vio above. Please dont restore it. And there are many more sources, and better sources, that say flat out the Israeli position, that because there was no soveriegn state who controlled the West Bank or Gaza prior to 67 that it is not occupied, is completely specious and without any founding in international law. In fact the ICJ explicitly rejected that outright. nableezy - 03:50, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The ICJ cannot reject it, because it was a poltiical decision and not a legal decision. Israel did not accept that forum, nor did the U.S. nor did 30 other countries who had objections to its authority. Its decisions are systematically biased, like I explained to you above, and like Posner has proven. Leading international scholars have determined that Israel exerted its right of self defense and it's not the same as an occupying power since its position is better than the former belligerent parties. The best source to this are ones I gave you above. Don't vandalize what I say here - I read the egyptian's judge opinion and in my opinion, he's totally and completely antisemitic. He's also completely legally daft and biased, which further helped to discredit the decision (he was afraid to make an assertion about Israel's legitimacy to pre 1967 borders for example. An utter loon). Amoruso (talk) 03:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

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