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Revision as of 05:15, 20 January 2006

Blather

It seems that certain people are hell-bent on censoring any kind of comment on these talk pages.

While I agree that the main pages should be kept clean and that damage caused by vandals should be repaired, these pages should not be censored and any opinions expressed here should not be oppressed in the way in which they are being. Otherwise, what is the point of having talk pages?

All I did was ask a simple question. Clearly, some people did not like the question and think of themselves as superior. Clearly they have an ego problem. Clearly, anyone who points out that they have an ego problem is automatically in the wrong because we don't want to admit to themselves how conceited they really are now do we!

No doubt that this comment will also be removed because it offends one of those conceited people. I truly pity them. They are small people.

If you want a home page, you know where to find Geocities. Meanwhile, what was removed was removed because it was very rude and had no apparent bearing on Ken Ham.

If you don't like that, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. -- Salsa Shark 09:04 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

Talk Pages are not for general chit-chat, and certainly not offensive comments about other users. These pages are to discuss the article & ways to improve it. -- Tarquin 09:12 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

I originally made a comment about someone else's comment. It got removed because someone didn't like it. I've got webspace, thanks. This page is not even close to a homepage and I wouldn't even consider having a homepage on Wiki, I'm not that sad. If you think that I should sod off because my comment is not realated to the page about Ken Ham then perhaps the same people who originally made comments which were directed at me should also sod off because they are the conceited ones. I merely defended myself.

I initially removed Intelligent Design as a "see more" link because Ken Ham and AiG generally do not support ID from my understanding of them (ID is not the same as Young Earth Creationism). But I'm not going to get into an edit war over it. --Fastfission 00:27, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

FastFission, while I agree with you that ID is not the same thing as YEC, it is however related to the creation/evolution controversy, and thus probably should be included. But I agree, it's not worth an edit-war. :-|

Unrelated sections

Removed 'see also' as it pertains to Answers in Genesis, not Ken Ham agapetos_angel 09:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC) Ditto for the 'creation museum' section; it was already present (and better written) on the AiG article, the more appropriate place agapetos_angel 01:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Contradictions in the Bible

In response to the recent edits on contradictions in the Bible.

1) If you spend as much time as I have looking through the Answers in Genesis website then you'll see that AiG has addressed at least some of the apparent contradictions in Genesis. Sorry I don't have the references at the moment- if you're really desperate I can look for them.

2) I'm not certain whether it's NPOV to claim that there exist 'contradictions' as opposed to 'apparent contradictions'. In a literary text such as the Bible- context is everything and it is usually possible to argue that black is white given context and interpretation. I'm not saying that's a good thing.

3) To be scrupulously fair- there are many apparently contradictory phenomena in science- that doesn't mean that they're wrong- it sometimes means that we just aren't smart enough to understand the situation. For instance quantum mechanics and general relativity are almost universally acknowledged to be contradictory in some situations. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the worth of either.

4) Biblical literalists don't always claim that they have all the answers and will sometimes openly admit that they aren't smart enough to explain a contradiction. I think credit is due to them for that. There's a big difference between that position and the one of actively ignoring the problem and misdirecting people.

I think we're almost there. It's appropriate to cite skeptical sources which point out (apparent or not) contradictions in Genesis. Be a little bit careful about accusing Ham or AiG of ignoring these contradictions (whatever you think of Ham, I'm sure he knows Genesis inside-out).

Thanks for your input Christianjb 15:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Right you are, CJB. AiG has links to alleged contradictions Bible ‘contradictions’ and ‘errors’: What Biblical errors do skeptics claim to have found? How can these claims be answered? The issue is covered on biblical inerrancy.58.162.252.67 15:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Response

1. Some contradictions are, as you say, addressed on the AiG website (go there and search for 'contradictions'). However, Ham insists upon literal interpretations when they suit his point of view, and disputes the text when it doesn't suit. Apart from the contradictions in the text, his approach to the reading of it is contradictory too.

2. The contradictions are quite straightforward, there's not much to be apparent about!

So your refutation of, say, Answering a List of Biblical Contradictions is, what, exactly?58.162.252.67 15:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to add some reference material to his assertions about belief in evolution 'causing' the evils in society, specifically, to back up my claim that these 'evils' are more common in states where a belief in creationism is more common. See and elsewhere.

You're completely underestimating the ingenuity of Biblical literalists to explain any part of the Bible as fact. I suspect I'd need a doctorate in divinity to out-argue Ham and his ilk when it comes to their interpretation of the Bible. In any case- I tend to take the view that people should have an entitlement to their own theology, no matter how self-contradictory. It's only when they make pronouncements on the physical real world that I start asking for proof and evidence.

No, it means understanding the Bible according to its historical and grammatical context, and not reading it like a 21st-century newspaper.58.162.252.67 15:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

As to your second point. It's very tempting to try and draw conclusions like this. I've been sent various emails linking voting patterns to average state IQ's. As far as I know, most of these are pretty much urban myths- but people want to believe in them so much. Maybe it's worth mentioning- but I think the philosophy is misguided. Are you going to stick to Ham's definition of evil, or are you going to use another definition? What about the obvious get-out clause that anyone who is evil doesn't sufficiently believe in the Bible? It's hopeless! Linking divorce rates with religious belief is tenuous at best. What if Ham doesn't believe in divorce?

Maybe your planned edits would be better suited for some other page. I'd like to hear others' comments on this.Christianjb 19:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, a biography page should not be filled with debate about issues covered elsewhere.58.162.252.67 15:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent edit by anon 61.88.7.202

Firstly I strongly disapprove of anon edits and the news today shows that Misplaced Pages feels the same way. This especially holds true for controversial pages.

Secondly, you can't win here (in my opinion). You're arguing against Ham's theology, which is his interpretation and subjective view- not yours. Yes it may be entirely inconsistent- but isn't every theology (at least to others)? Christianjb 04:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Finally, most of your information is (or should be) already available on the Alleged inconsistencies in the Bible and other more appropriate pages. Let's just link there. Christianjb 12:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Removal of "Contradictions" section, etc.

I made a number of edits today -- most of them superficial, style, etc., such as moving & resizing an image, clearing up the external links section, removing lonely subsections (to clarify reading of the table of contents), and so forth. I made a number of edits that seem to be reflecting the consensus of talk page commenters, but may not be entirely -- I had a little trouble following the discussion through some of the juxtaposed comments. I do not intend to start an edit war. So, concerning the more major edits:

A. I renamed the "Criticisms" section "Criticisms of Ham", so that it is more clear that that space is not for general criticisms of creationism, Young-Earth creationism, or Answers in Genesis.

B. I removed this block of text:

"The text of Genesis contains apparent contradictions (e.g. and ) and critics claim that a literalist interpretation of the text cannot therefore be possible, as it requires some of the text's assertions to be discarded in favour of other ones. This is sometimes countered by the philosophy that in an inerrant text it must be the interpretations which are wrong, and it is usally possible to find interpretations which resolve the contradictions. In particular, Answers in Genesis has addressed this issue , but skeptics generally view such explanations as post-hoc rationalization."

"Critics of Ham also express concern that the Book of Genesis can be used to promote a 'pro-family' agenda. Genesis firstly contains the story of Cain who killed his own brother Abel in a fit of envy. In the story of the Ark, Noah fails to plead for the lives of any of his relatives and family members when told by God of the flood that is to envelop the earth. This is in marked contrast to Abraham who asks God to reconsider the punishment against the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah should ten good men be found. One of Noah's sons then discovers his father naked while drunk and calls for assistance from his brothers to bring some dignity to the old man, for this he is cursed by Noah. Later on we find Abraham taking a concubine in Hagar when his own wife cannot have children. When Sarah does conceive, Abraham sends Hagar and his young son Ismael into the desert and almost certain death (had God not saved them). In the story of Joseph, Dinah is raped but her father Jacob shows almost no concern. There are many more instances in Genesis that suggest the promotion of traditions against modern day 'family values'."

for the following reasons:

1. Block A discusses Genesis contradictions and issues of biblical inerrancy, but does not even mention Ham. This would be better on the Answers in Genesis page or on the articles about Genesis or Biblical Inerrancy. It is my understanding that other users agree that this section does not fit with a biographical article, hence, why I'm proceeding with the removal.

2. Block B mentions Ham only in passing -- "critics of Ham also express concern" while focusing on stories in Genesis. Not only would this be more approriate on another page, but it also cites no external references that contain this critique. This text would be better on the Answers in Genesis page, for example, Answers_in_Genesis#Criticism.

C. There were some duplicate statements made in the text on Ham's writings that were both out-of-place and already listed in the Criticisms section (for example, "None of Ham's scientific analyses have been accepted into mainstream peer-reviewed scientific journals and they lie completely outside of mainstream science", in the Writings section, was removed because "Ham's stance on scientific matters have not been subjected to peer-reviewed analysis in mainstream scientific journals" is the opening sentence in the Criticisms section.

There might be a tendency to post criticisms of Young-Earth creationism, biblical inerrancy, or Answers in Genesis on this page when they should be focused on the aforementioned pages. As a biographical page, criticisms should focus on statements specifically made by Ham (including citations), actions undertaken by Ham, etc., rather than focusing on criticisms of more "widespread" beliefs Ken Ham holds ("widespread" in the sense that he is not the sole person holding those beliefs, and that those beliefs, therefore, have a separate page listing allegations about their own merits).

This edit was in good faith -- please revert/revise if I've acted too rashly. AnDrew McKenzie 17:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the very detailed reasoning. As someone who disagrees with Ham on most things (I guess), I support your argument that this is not the place to hash out 1001 creationist/evolution arguments. Christianjb 20:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

President of USA AIG?

Is Ken Ham the President of just the USA AIG. I know he is its founder but if he is not incharge of the Australia AIG and British AIG then who is? Falphin 01:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm ... says "President of Answers in Genesis-US" and "Joint CEO, Answers in Genesis International"; I edited the page to reflect both those titles. AnDrew McKenzie 19:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

It seems to me that the part where it is stated that Mr. Ham's arguments are hotly debated in the skeptic community is not only inaccurate, but a flatout lie. His arguments are the standard young earth creationist arguments (be they more carefully stated than the arguments by fellow YEC Kent Hovind) and do NOT form a hot topic.

Secondly it seems to me that the addition of the word atheist (nearly as a form of slander) is of very limited value and gives the entire criticism section an inflammatory and slanted feel.

--Jerom 16:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree about the 'atheist' bit. The fact that the current version has John Stear's atheism mentioned twice in the one sentence indicates that the anonymous editor is not exactly neutral on the topic. I forsee an editwar in getting it brought to any sort of better style though. Ashmoo 06:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

This is typical of the double standards of anti-Christians. They dismiss AiG's arguments, even those that appeal purely to scientific data, on the grounds that AiG is evangelical Christian. But they also claim that the rabid atheism of Stear and Dawkins has nothing to do with their anticreationist and pro-evolution arguments. 220.245.180.134 05:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Humanism

This sentence is baffling: "Ham believes that evolutionary theory has contributed to the rise of humanism, racism, eugenics, euthanasia, pornography, homosexuality, family breakup, abortion, and more".

What's wrong with humanism? Was it supposed to be the bad "secular humanism"? Or was it to say "evolution sparks good and bad things"?

Oh, that is right. Creationists, along with most conservative Christians see relative morality (in particular humanist style morality) as dangerous. They hold that only absolute, Christian morality has any place, and should be above all human or relative concerns. Pal sch 13:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Radio Program

I just added the section about Ken Ham's daily radio broadcast. This is my first wiki contribution and I am open to criticisms of how I could have done this better. Dennis Fuller 15:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Removing the "Cash Cow" section

This is an encyclopedia entry not a blog for personal views. Encyclopedia entries don't make judgments on the appropriateness of someone's salary or discourage it's readers from making donations.

Beside the blatant POV pushing, this section is poorly sourced. The NPTimes is a survey of 209 non-profits who voluntarily responded to the survey. CharityNavigator has a study from 4,000 charities that are required to make their financial information publicly available. If you look at CharityNavigator's CEO compensation study, you will see that Ken Ham's pay falls right in line with the averages compared to other charities with similar revenue.

Also, the salaries that were posted for other staff members are not sourced. Even if they can be sourced, there is nothing extraordinary about what they are being paid.

See talk at AiG. Thanks for the charitynavigator link, which supports this criticism. 58.162.255.242 23:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm trying to salvage the information and remove the POV, since the information has been posted again. Drew 21:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

After working with it for a bit, I don't think there's any relevant & salvagable NPOV info -- see comments on Talk:Answers in Genesis#Removing the "Cash Cow" section. I'm removing the section from this page as well. Drew 21:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

As explained in AiG talk, please do not vandalize the articles. 58.162.255.242 00:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)