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Revision as of 01:10, 22 January 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

It is suggested that new readers of this "talk page" read the archived discussion below. It is likely that an issue of concern has already been discussed. As a result, a would-be poster can save the Wikipedian community time and effort spent on otherwise rehashing an issue if this responsbility is undertaken. Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falungong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content. We don't want a puff piece for Falungong or Li Hongzhi, neither do we want to demonise them. If we have an objectively neutral, factual article one hopes the truth will speak for itself, however we may subjectively perceive it. Archived discussion:

• /archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
• /Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
• /Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006

Money and Government

I realize this is a controversial topic, so before anything I would like to suggest that I don't get dismissed as a staunch CPC propagandist, or anything of that sort. I am somewhat surprised at how much the article covers, but think certain sections definitely need improvement. I lived in China during the time of the crackdown, I've read the article and I've found a few things not being mentioned. For one, it is mentioned in Falun Dafa, the book, that society has a "Falun", just like the body, and increasing instability (and things to the like) contribute to the abnormal function of such a societal Falun, and thus needs "purification". Thus we need to answer the question of whether this is enough to support that Li Hongzhi himself had certain political ambitions, not taking in account what the average Falun Gong practictioner thinks about politics.

Second, I thought it was interesting that Falun Gong's spread in China was described in a few sentences, and somehow Falun Gong ended up with 70 million practitioners by 1999. While not dismissing Falun Gong as any kind of evil cult, my personal experience suggested to me that it was not as pure as it claimed, either. In China, I was approached in 1998, while taking a morning jog, by several people in a park, who led me to a Falun Gong stand nearby with a big banner and a bunch of printed material. The guy asked me to buy the book Falun Dafa, and after politely declining he said he'd "lend" it to me at no cost, as long as I came and returned it to them later. I took the book home, and lost interest after reading about Li's numerous Buddha-related abilities, and a few of his principles. When I decided to return the book, the people in the park dissapeared, and to my knowledge never came back.

Many of my friends had similar experiences, and some were forced into purchasing some kind of a practicing carpet (I'm not an expert on Falun Gong, so I don't know what this thing is, it'd help if someone could explain) that's apparently crucial to the spinning of the Falun. Some of these friends then began advertising other Falun Gong related products to me, to all of which, I declined. I later found out that this was basically a money-making scheme for a larger organization, as these people worked for higher authorities. In the Falun Gong video tape that was circulating at the time, I watched a part where Li claimed he was the re-incarnation of the Buddha, following which was a lengthy 60-minute presentation when he droned on in monotone about various moral principles, and correct methods of practicing movements.

I guess my personal stories aside, what I'm trying to get at is that the spread of Falun Gong on Mainland China was done in a fairly forced and unconventional manner, especially after 1997, and much focus was shifted from the original spiritual content to economic oppurtunity (similar to Chuanxiao). Furthermore, although CPC propaganda vilifies Falun Gong as an evil cult in black and white, it would not be unfair to say that Falun Gong had political intentions. Li Hongzhi, the leader, shifting positions to fit whatever situation suited him best, cannot be fairly seen as a legitimate religious (or even spiritual) leader, but rather unfairly used the combination of China's poor human rights record, and the sympathy of the west at the time to continue spreading his word. I wish to make some changes into the article, but to my ability right now I cannot decide on which ones will be the most appropriate. Please reply,

Colipon+(T) 20:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

While not having much personal experience with Falun Gong, I know it was one of several "Gong" (i.e. spiritual exercises) which were all the rage in China in the early 90's. Each of them had this "master" who usually claimed to have some kind of special abilities - Li Hongzhi's miracle healing etc. Another one that was quite influential in some parts was Xiang Gong, literrally fragrant exercise, which claimed to make you smell very nice after doing their exercises, and cure cancer etc.

The government started disapproving of these things only after they realised the demonstrated organisational abilities of these groups, most famously (or notoriously) Falun Gong's protest surrounding the Zhongnan Hai compound in Beijing.

The way I see it, it's one man's opportunistic money making scheme hijacked by people with political motives.

--Sumple

I might write a longer comment when I have time, but first of all, I'd like to correct some misunderstandings.

There is nothing about a "societal Falun" anywhere in Falun Dafa's books. Period. You can read through all of the lectures (excluding the politically motivated fabrications that are also passed around), and I'll mail you a banana if you really find anything like that.

Second, I've never seen people who are more reluctant to accept money or donations than Falun Gong practitioners. True, some may sell videos or books for a few bucks. So? All the material is free anyway, and anybody can download it from their webpages.

Third, it doesn't matter what the practitioners believe. Maybe they're wrong, maybe they're right. It's not really up to them or any government to decide. What we're talking about here is a brutal persecution that violates international treaties and China's constitution. Be it allegations of political instability, anti-communism, or whatever - nothing can justify what's happening in China's labor camps. The practitioners have a fundamental right to believe in what they want, and the fact is, many of them indeed have good experiences of Falun Gong's effect on themselves, so why shouldn't they investigate the practice further, especially when they don't have to pay anybody for doing that?

Fourth, I'm not saying that conspiracies don't exist in the world. But it's also a tendency of the human mind to see them where there aren't any. In addition, the Falun Gong issue is a question of epistemological power. Who has the right to define what is true and what is false or "superstitious"? For instance, I'm not asking you to believe that Buddhas and Daos actually exist, or that man can cultivate into a higher being through xiulian, and so on, but is it up to a government to stop people from exploring whatever they deem worthy, be it "superstitions" or "pseudo-science" or whatever? Is there a transcendent world or not? Who can deny that the man is fundamentally a homo religiosus, and everybody assumes a metaphysical relation to the world, regardless of whether they are aware of its axioms or not? ---Olaf Stephanos 01:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

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