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Education NA‑class

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Merge proposal

Not really! The section Fellow deal with the broad concept of Fellow (i.e. an equal, someone who belongs to college, an "emeritus lecturer", a professional fellow) Research Fellow is very specific and some parts of the section Fellow should be moved to Research Fellow. Merging the two sections would like merging Teacher and Lecturer. Mootros (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest merging the content of Fellow that deals with all meanings of "research fellow" with this article (Research Fellow) and moving the result to Research fellow (uncapitalized "fellow"), which is currently a redirect to Fellow. --Boson (talk) 23:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Boson your suggestion sounds good! http://www.eths.k12.il.us/manual_of_form_and_style/capitalization.html I've now done the section merger from Fellow#Research Fellow into Research Fellow. Could some please shift Research Fellow to Research fellow, remove the redirect and than delete the wrongly capitalised entry. Cheers Mootros (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• We certainly do not delete Research Fellow - it is used (albeit wrongly) in several places: Special:WhatLinksHere/Research Fellow. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 18:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

References

76.66.180.225: You can make changes, but not remove references and other links unless you explain.Wilson44691 (talk) 18:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Ventuas / Wilson: before applying rules on other, please apply rules on yourself first. Thanks a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kushsinghmd (talk • contribs) 18:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Lead and other section

The lead states that RF differs greatly. So it does not makes sense having a section called "concepts". Contributors should add to each country's section specifc facts and refrain from a gerneric statements in a catch all section. Mootros (talk) 18:30, 9 May 2010 (UTC) Please sign your contributions by placing ~~~~ after your comments. Many thanks!

'comment'

In fact it makes a perfect sense to have a concept section explaining what is RF, and then pointing out variations among countries.

~~~~

What facts are your revering to? Mootros (talk) 08:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

the fact that for you it doesn't make sense, but for others it makes lot of sense Kushsinghmd (talk) 12:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

What fact (what source?) what are you talking about? 10:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

exactly that is that point, you still don't know what we are talking about, and it is good that you asked.

so you said it doesnt make sense, is there any source that your senses are true ?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kushsinghmd (talk • contribs) 19:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Use of abbreviation

What is the point of using an abbreviation (PhD), plus a summary of term (doctoral), plus the fully spelled term (doctor of)? Mootros (talk) 16:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

what is the point of putting an abbreviation without shorty explaining it ?! isn't this an encyclopedia ? Kushsinghmd (talk) 22:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Next why put MD there at all. While most RFs have a PhD, an MD is a professional degreesin many countries and not a research degree. Mootros (talk) 18:29, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

here is your problem, that you dont want to consider Doctor of Medicine as Both a graduate and Doctoral degree, consequently you are editing based on your desire and not based on facts. Dear, MD is both graduate and Doctoral.Kushsinghmd (talk) 22:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

(od) Why not leave it as (PhD or MD)? That way both of you are satisfied. If that doesn't work, I suggest you seek a third opinion. --RegentsPark (talk) 22:56, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

thanks for sharing the discussion. The main reason is that abbreviation are always decievong and confusing. Like MD in some countries doesn't mean a doctor of medicine. Also in some countries , their universities don't offer PhD, they offer degrees equivalent to it. Hence explanation of abbreviation is essential, and I dont think it is a problem to mention what the abbreviation stands for. However, with Motrooos it seems, like a big big problem to explain abbreviations to give space for confusion! thanks again Kushsinghmd (talk) 23:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're not ok with abbreviations, and mootros is not ok with the long form, I suggest seeking a third opinion. This should be fairly straightforward and I can help set it up for the two of you if you like. --RegentsPark (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Again thanks for your positive interventions. I don't think we need a third opinion as much as we need more understanding. Here is a simple question: is MD abbreviation when added next to PhD is clear enough for everyone to understnad that it means "Doctor of Medicine" ?! I don't think so. If you are living in india or middle east for instance, you will know that MD there means PhD !

So the golden rule always, when the context of abbreviation might cause confusion then write the whole term next to it, and further down the article, you can use the abbreviation that was already mentioned. That is the ethics in any peer reviewed Journal by the way. The explain abbreviation even for very common terms in the beginning of the article, to avoid potential confusion.Kushsinghmd (talk) 02:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

If you can convince mootros, then fine. But, if you can't, you'll need to go in for some form of dispute resolution. A WP:3O is the easiest. If you don't do that, the likelihood is that you will get into an edit war and then one or both of you will end up blocked. If you or mootros want to go in for a 3O, and would like help setting it up, let me know. --RegentsPark (talk) 02:47, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I do not agree on two interrelated points. (i) It is superfluous to use abbreviations and fully spelled out terms in addition to the neat summary term "doctoral". Doctoral has a wiki link, leading the those who do not know what it means to a detailed explanation. This get us around (ii) the issues of international variations, such as doctor of medicine. Doctor of medicine in many places is not be a research degree, but a professional qualification. Mootros (talk) 06:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Doctor of Medicine is both a research and professional degree everywhere. It just takes you two minutes to look in the MEDLINE database , to know how doctors everywhere over th planet are leading medical research. User failed to recognize the major difference between clinical and basic science research.Kushsinghmd (talk) 10:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

also expalining commonly used abbreviation in the begining of an article is standrad by many peer reviewed and scholarly Journals. If further infroamtion is required about the concep, then yes go search other arciles, in this case will be the doctoral link

Are we going to include Doctor of Business Administration and Doctor of Music in this "list" then? Mootros (talk) 11:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

what is the degree title that Doctor of Bussiness adminsteration and Doctor of Music are holding ?! isn't it PhD, which is already included. Kushsinghmd (talk) 12:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

No, it is not. Doctorate#Professional_doctorates_in_the_United_States Mootros (talk) 13:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I didnt find among the list you lately provided Doctor of Bussiness Adminsteration or Doctor of Music which you specifically asked about previously , and Accordingly I responded. SO please eplain your situation. You provided two examples, yet we didnt find them in the list you are providing, doesn that mean that you are used to provide false information, and then when face, you try to revert to something else in a trial for correction ?! Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Search for Doctor_of_Business_Administration Mootros (talk) 12:16, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

again there is difficulty understanding. User previously said: Are we going to include Doctor of Business Administration and Doctor of Music in this "list" then?, and then I answered him, so he changed gears, rather than admitting his mistake, diverging to another topic, ], and when asked how is that related to PHD in BA or music, he said Search for Doctor_of_Business_Administration. That's so disturbed way of thinking, to switch from one point to another unrelated point trying to escape faulty thinking and wrong examples. And it is ironic enough that user invites us to search, when he always failed to do so!!. I guess case closed Kushsinghmd (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you moderate your tone; you may read this: Misplaced Pages:Etiquette, to get some better ideas of how to collaborate. Mootros (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You provided two examples, and when asked about the appropriateness of using these exmples you failed to provided solid information, however you used an irrelevant list. when asked how both are related, you talked about wikipedia etiquette!!! WOW !! Honestly, I am not going to comment on such attitude and behaviour. Thanks Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

RfC: Use of summary term, abbreviation of term, and fully spelled out term in same sentence

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The wikified term doctoral degree is sufficient in the lead of this article; it does not need be followed by a random list of abbreviations (e.g. PhD, MD, DBA...) plus another list of fully spelled terms (doctors of..., doctors of..., doctors of...) in one and the same sentence. Mootros (talk)

User failed to respond appropraiately to his own discussion above, and now started a new one. However still same repition and redundancy of the dsame points. Since I already responded to all these points above, while user wasn't able to rebuttle, but instead preferred to repeat himself over and over again, So once again I would refer him to the my same responses (above) to either respond appropraitelly so we can give him some attention, or he can keep repeeating same points, for which we are not going to listen, it is your choice, thanks Kushsinghmd (talk) 13:45, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I think there is nothing wrong with explaining abbreviations, this is common practice in explanatory texts such as encyclopedias. On the other hand we do not need a full list of all possible abbreviations and their meanings in this article, because that's not the topic of "Research fellow" and that's what the doctorate wikilink is about. The mentioning of examples of doctoral in the lead should be left as in this edit. The phrase "i.e MD (Doctor of Medicine) or PhD (Philosophy Doctorate), or equivalent work" clearly is meant to be exemplary for some of the most common doctorates. De728631 (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment Doctor of Medicine is not a common research degree; in many countries it is not a research degree but a professional degree. Doctorate#Professional_doctorates_in_the_United_States So MD is not a good example I would say. Mootros (talk) 12:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I can see a definite problem reading and understanding my comments !!, I have already responded to this point at least 3 times, and user keeps bringing this same point over and over again. Since you are forcing me to do so, here is my response once again, may be you lost track in all these repitionions and redundancy you are commiting to wikipedia:

I have already said to user before and he completely failed to respond:

"Doctor of Medicine is both a research and professional degree everywhere. It just takes you two minutes to look in the MEDLINE database , to know how doctors everywhere over th planet are leading medical research. User failed to recognize the major difference between clinical and basic science research."Kushsinghmd (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2010 (UTC) Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems that the abbreviations would suffice, if they had the internal links to the relevant articles. Robotpandazombie (talk) 20:04, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I dont agree , the value of providing internal link is to learn more about a topic, and not to search for th meaning of an abbreviation. Articles in any respectful peer reviewed journal should elaborate on the abbreviations used first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kushsinghmd (talk • contribs) 19:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

If you insist to use the fully spelled out term, there is no need to use an abbreviation, as it is not repeated in the text. Mootros (talk) 09:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

puting the abbreviation in the begining of the article not only mandated by using the term down the article, but also used for the redears own knowledge.Kushsinghmd (talk) 11:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The Manuel of Style clearly states here abbreviations are used to clarify further usage. In RF there is no further usage; this article is about RF not about MD or PhD. In Misplaced Pages most editors follow the MOS. If you think this need to be changed please start a discussion at the relevant MOS page. Mootros (talk) 13:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

MOS clearly states to use abbreviation on the first occurence, and did not manadate the precense of further usage to justify putting abbreviation in the begining of an artcile. Kushsinghmd (talk) 15:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

To make it clear, I coincide the idea you introduced that doctoral should be explained by one or two fully spelled out terms. I will continue to object to any unnecessary use of an abbreviation in conjunction with a fully spell out term. Mootros (talk) 14:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

what do you mean unnecssary usage of abbreviation?! Kushsinghmd (talk) 15:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Abbreviations are used to make a sentence shorter, you put it in to make it longer. Mootros (talk) 15:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

So I can't understand how this contribution is useful to the discusion. So you want to keep it shhorter or longer on what basis ? Kushsinghmd (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Appropriateness of MD as example of degree of Research Fellow

The phrase "i.e MD (Doctor of Medicine) or PhD (Philosophy Doctorate), or equivalent work" clearly is meant to be exemplary for some of the most common doctorates. De728631 (talk) 18:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment Doctor of Medicine is not a common research degree; in many countries it is not a research degree but a professional degree. Doctorate#Professional_doctorates_in_the_United_States So MD is not a good example I would say. Mootros (talk) 12:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment What Countries exactly are you talking about here sir ?! I hope you don't mean a third world country that's already not participating in research and consequently they don't have positions similar to RF Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:12, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

From Doctor of Medicine: "Following the awarding of the MD, physicians who wish to practice in the United States are required to complete at least one internship year (PGY-1) and pass the USMLE Step 3. In order to receive Board Eligible or Board Accredited status in a specialty of medicine such as general surgery or internal medicine, then undergo additional specialized training in the form of a residency. Those who wish to further specialize in areas such as cardiology or interventional radiology then complete a fellowship." See also Penn State Milton S. Hershey Medical Center's roster of current research fellows for infectious diseases. All of them are M.D.

This makes it look like the qualification of MD is indeed sufficient for entering a research fellowship in the U.S. and that no additional title is required for a fellowship. That aside, there are in fact many other countries where the Doctor of Medicine is a full academic title, so that alone justifies its inclusion in the lead for the Research fellow article. De728631 (talk) 15:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Nobody has said that an MD is not sufficient for becoming a RF; I say it is not a degree that is most commonly held by RFs. You are mistaking a Fellowship_(medicine) as part of a medical training, which is distinct from an appointment as RF, who who does not embark on a higher career as a practitioner of something, but as a researcher of something. These intricate details make it hard to put some specific degree in the intro; that's the whole reason why I say doctoral degree (level) is a sufficient description. Mootros (talk) 15:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: That's inconsistency. Since you already admitted here that MD is totally sufficent degree to become and RF, then how come you are asking to delete as a common example ?!!! Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:12, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I will also add what I have already said to user before and he completely failed to respond:

"Doctor of Medicine is both a research and professional degree everywhere. It just takes you two minutes to look in the MEDLINE database , to know how doctors everywhere over th planet are leading medical research. User failed to recognize the major difference between clinical and basic science research."Kushsinghmd (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Good example here: Medical_school#Thailand MD is a first degree in Thailand (six years duration). So far I know there is know specfic research element to it, but a broad practical element, including emergency surgery. Mootros (talk)

That article doesn't say anything at all about research, only about how to become an MD in Thailand. Anyhow, it doesn't matter at all for this article which specific country allows which title for entering a research fellowship, it is sufficient if examples of common titles in some countries are given in the lead. And this does include the Doctor of Medicine in a lot of countries. I would really advise you to accept this solution, but if you feel that it is needed you may ask the Misplaced Pages:Mediation Committee for assistance. I for one have stated my opinion on the matter and won't comment any further on it. De728631 (talk) 16:14, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: How is thailand as an example ? example for what sir ?! and what brought up the issue f Emergency medicine here ?!! this contribution is totally confusing !! Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:12, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

A good example where people after six years MD training have almost no research methodology training, but instead an extremely broad training, including compulsory training how to perform certain types of surgery, even they qualify as medical practitioners. I'll try to find some sources in English, if you want; hope it's not going to shock you again. Mootros (talk) 20:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply. Are we not trying to give an example of a degree that has a sufficient component of research training, because RF is a research position, not a training. The Thai case is a good (though extreme) example (I'll look for some sources in English). An MD usually does not have the research component to the extent a PhD would have, because it focuses on the solution of practical problems. As you said it should be a common example; it is questionable in my opinion to what extent a Fellow --who is undertaken medical training-- is a research fellow. These are normally refereed to as fellows; see the link you provided. If there really needs to be an example it should only be PhD. Furthermore, there is no need for both an abbreviation and the fully spelled out term, because the abbreviation is not used again in the text. Lets wait until the 30 days are over before moving further. Mootros (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Since you showed some understanding of how the medical system works, then you should have known that during years of residency, Postgraduate training, and also during fellowship years, most training programs, dedicates a period of time ranges from few months to years embarking on a research study. An example is here http://people.ucalgary.ca/~psyctree/resident.htm. And I would like to provide this clear example to you about medical research fellowships: http://med.stanford.edu/anesthesia/education/residentresearch.html . And to end this discussion, here is an announcment about research fellowship it requires either MD or Phd degree or equivalent work: http://www.hhwf.org/HTMLSrc/ResearchFellowships.html

I guess now that case is closed Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Note the way Ph.D. is listed first, before M.D in this US specific example Mootros (talk) 09:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

So what ?! "or" in language does not necessirly mean order, I think that is very basic!

anyways: MDs like PhDs, both are eligible to become research fellows Not like you hav been falsely claiming and have been calling to delete it wrongly from the examples section !Kushsinghmd (talk) 11:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I hope you may understand that we are trying to reach a compromise. You may also have noticed that I have shifted my position about the MD as a possible example, upon the previous conversation. I will not move on the issue to place MD first, because it is misleading. Faculties of medicine are only one of many faculties in most universities; members of all the other faculties have mostly PhDs and not MDs. Even within faculties of medicine there is a good mixture of PhDs and MDs. This article is not about RF in medical sciences. Mootros (talk) 13:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Would you please clearly state what you are asking for now ?! it seems that since your objections failed, so you are trying to be Not clear to avoid clear discussion.

Also are you tryin to exclude medical sciences from this topic ?! then what sciences specifically is this topic dealing with ? please let me know if you heard about a research fellow in Bussiness adminsteration or RF of music; the examples you previously mentioned. thanks Kushsinghmd (talk) 14:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I am suggesting not to put doctor of medicine first, but doctor of philosophy, because most RFs have a PhD -> because medical sciences is only one area within a University. Most people have a PhD in something, but not a PhD in medicine. Hence Phd is more prominent and should be in the order of precedent the first (most prominent) example followed by MD, because in contrast to PhDs across the University there are less MDs. You are right doctor of medicine is useful to list, because of the historical development that there is not PhD in medicine.

1. Please reference you speech, and show some statisitics about number of research fellows and their qulaificaions and degrees.

2. Does order here should be ascending , descending or random ?! why do you consider order as a represent of prominency ?

Kushsinghmd (talk) 16:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Re, PhD in Business Admin. Here is a good example of a (senior) RF post where the candidate would be mostly like to have a PhD in Business Admin or in Management studies. Some applicants might even have a DBA, but it tends to be the exception because they got their doctorate in order to "go out" to be executives or business leaders, and not researchers. The difference between these two degrees is that the later often focuses on the solution of more practical problems. In terms of becoming an RF it does not make a difference, because an RF in this sense (unlike in medicine in the US) is not a training programme, but a job. I hope this makes sense. Mootros (talk) 15:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I hope that you are reading stuff after you google it and before you put it here. Sir, in the example you mentioned the first selection criteria is "Doctorate in the physical, mathematical, engineering, computer, or analytic social sciences from a major research university." and not PhD in business admintsteration. Further more it is a RF position in networking. So wouldyou please justify how is this an appropriate reponse to my question. Kushsinghmd (talk) 16:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Guess what analytic social sciences is. Try to think outside the box of North America. Do you not see the point? It is almost irrelevant in the UK what the PhD is in. Most institutions don't even give a PhD in something, but have PhD attained at a specific faculty. Mootros (talk) 18:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I already know what analytic social sciences . But enough for you to know it is neither related to Doctor of Music or Doctor of Bussiness adminsteration Kushsinghmd (talk) 18:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

If you have specific points relevant to UK, I think you already know that there is a specific section devoted for UK in our RF article that you can add to it specific issues. ThanksKushsinghmd (talk) 18:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it is UK specific, but common to many European countries and commonwealth countries. Business administration, not an analytical social science? What? Where is the Music mentioned in the job ad? Mootros (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

If it is specific to UK and commonwealth, then you can add it to the UK section and write that is is specific to this region.

This http://www.qass.org.uk/ should help you understand analytical social science

Music wasnt mentioned in the job ad. But it was mentioned by you earlier as an example of Doctorate. yet I asked you for an example of RF in music. But it looks that it is hard for you to provide reliable sources for statements you are making

Kushsinghmd (talk) 18:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Commonwealth = UK? European countries = UK? Mootros (talk) 19:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

you are confused again!!. where did I ever that they are the same. i said use the UK section and mention that this system is applied in whatever countries relatd to. Let me know if you are still confused Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Bias -- Conflict of interest

I am arguing to put PhD first in a list of two examples to elaborate on the term doctoral, because most RFs have a PhD. A user called Kushsinghmd --I guess-- wants to put MD first because this user's username ends with MD. I consider this would be a form of bias in form of a conflict of interest. Mootros (talk) 15:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

1. Please reference you speech, and show some statisitics about number of research fellows and their qulaificaions and degrees.

2. Does order here should be ascending , descending or random ?! what do you consider order as a represent of prominency

3. No my name is not representative of anything. Should we consider your name representative of anything?

it is clear that the bias is on your side, since you have been delginetly trying to undermine the MD degree as not doctoral, not graduate, not having reasearch work, and not qualifying to RF. And you have been trying to compare it with Doctor of Music. And also you tried to avoid speeling out the whole speeling in a trial to hide what it really represnts. SO yes I agree there is a bias in this whole dispute, but it is from your side. Thanks

Kushsinghmd (talk) 16:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

1. Do you have any statistics to support the opposite? The very logic that a faculty of medicine is only one of many faculties might give you an indication. Have a quick look here www.jobs.ac.uk and search for Research Fellows almost all of the require a PhD.

You are the one who made the statement. And according to that statement you are making a dispute. So it is your role to provide a reference before making statement like this, then claiming that I am biased !!!!

Also I hope that you understand the difference between take a quick look, and between statistics. Sir, you made a claim, and also convicted me of bias, So Please would you put down your proofs on the table. please show us some sreliable information.

Kushsinghmd (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

2. Yes, in English if you list examples you normally tend to start with the most common example.

May be that is your way of using English. But is their relibale sources ?!

aslo where is the prove that PhD is the most common example ?!

Kushsinghmd (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

3. Please kindly consider my name.

consider your name in what ?!

you took two letter of my name trying to make a case. WOW !! is this how you make a case ?!Kushsinghmd (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The discussion has moved on; nobody is to undermine the MD degree. There is just the fact if you look at www.jobs.ac.uk that MD is not as common as a PhD, because this two year degree (MD) focuses more on the solving practical problems, whereas a PhD (3-4 years) has a strong research methodology component. Mootros (talk) 17:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey , you again repeating yourself over and over!!! So let me quote this again for you "Also I hope that you understand the difference between take a quick look, and between statistics. Sir, you made a claim, and convicted med of bias, then put your proofs on the table. Would you please show us some sreliable information."

And yes discussion moved on, but you have already showed your strong position fighting MD being put in all several ways. hence you requistion now is itself a BIAS. and not me. Hope that this is clear enough.

And you are saying MD is a 2 years degree. Please show me one prgoram over the Planet that offers MD in 2 years.

And again you are repeating this false information that MD lack "research methodology component" in their curriculum. Since I have already answered this repeatedly over and over in this discussion page, and everytime I answer you always fail to repsond but you Just repat yourself, So I am really sorry but You forcing me to say: Please, ENOUGH IGNORANCE . (full stop)

Kushsinghmd (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Check this out: University of Leeds, MD 3 years part-time, University of St-Andrews 2 years full time, University of Nottingham "sometimes shorter then PhD, University of Sheffield 2 years full-time, University of Manchester 2 years full-time. Nobody said lack of "research methodology component" in MD, I said focus on practical problems in MD programme. Mootros (talk) 19:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

in fact I am shcoked by the references you are using. You showed complete lack of understanding of what we are talking about, yet you confirmed the importance of spelling out MD. it is clear from the many exmaples you provided, that you have complete confusion about what MD we are talking about, and how it is used differently in other countries. Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Good! That's the whole reason why we not going to put MD in the intro, because all these six example universities conferee to the successful student after their two year course a Doctor of Medicine. Mootros (talk) 19:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

No dear, in fact the MD degree you mentioned here is equivalent to PhD. But in these universities that you mentioned they don't have a PhD degree in Medicine, it is Just MD. Kushsinghmd (talk) 19:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

How are you going to put into writing which Doctor of Medicine (MD) you mean? The one from a European University, the Thai one, the UK one, a Commonwealth Doctor of Medicine (MD)? The Doctor of Medicine (MD) for real doctors? Mootros (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

So again You missed the point. To become an RF you have to have MD or PhD. if you are in North America then the American MD is enough to make you a RF. If you are in UK, then the UK MD will get you in. it is simple. But you dont have to get a PhD to become an RF if you are having an MD in either cases.

so it to put it the other way, if you just want to keep PhD and exclude MD as a requirment for RF, that is false assertion. 19:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

That's not the point. Most RF have a PhD, because the likelihood to be based in a medical faculty is considerably lower. Those who are not based at a faculty of medicine will normally not have an MD. Mootros (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Where ?! prove it !! why to you usually intend to ignore the whole discussion point to repeat you false assertion ?! Didn I fully respond to all these claims and you failed to repsond appropraitely ?!!!! Please refer to point number 1 in this section , and please stop this kind of vicious cycles , I would urge you to respect he time of others and their discussion as part of the ettiquette you previously mentioned 20:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC) Kushsinghmd (talk) 20:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I have agreed to included MD in the list, because of its historical development, but it should not be on first place: first which in English normally indicated most common. That's all. Mootros (talk) 19:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Didnt I discuss the issue of order above, and you failed to respond. I dont understand where is the problem exactly. is it understandig ? or visual ? or do you get lost in discussion ? Please refer to point number 2, ans please stop getting into vicious cycles. 20:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Here is my proof "the likelihood to be based in a medical faculty is considerably lower, because a university is made up of many faculties (i.e. more than two)." You can read more about this here University#Organization! Ipso facto the likelihood to have an MD is considerably lower. What is your evidence? Mootros (talk) 20:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

So this maeans you failed to provide reliable statistics to back up your claim, So please either take it back or provide a reference. Your approache of counting faculties is a complete failure and totally biased, cause by this you assumed that number of RF positions offered by each faculty is the same. Also you assumed that numbers of graduate student are the same. And your forget to take into counts RF positions offered by labs, Research institutions, and research fellowships offered by profesional organizations and societies. Therefore: your approach is a complete Bias Kushsinghmd (talk) 20:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I provided a reasonable logical proof. Where is you evidence? Mootros (talk) 22:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Lets say the average university has five faculties. In order for a medial faculty to outweigh all other four faculties, it needs to "produce" almost as three times as many MDs as each faculty on average produces PhDs. I'd say that is a dubious claim you are making. As for non-university based research, there are many government agencies, charitable orgs, pharmaceutical companies, IT companies, and what not, where there are no mostly MDs in RF positions. Check out the s give you some idea . 22:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess I already told you that your logical proof is no longer valid cause it is biased unless you controlled the variables I meantioned.

second You provided examples, and they are related in physics, OK so what ?! I know that PhD are eligible for RF. I am not disputing that. But As I already told you previously and it seems that it was difficult for you to undestand, unless you provide solid statisitics, then all your trials providing few examples are invalid. You can't make such claim that there more RF holding PhD than there are RF holding MD with just few examples and googling job.uk !!!, That's absurd. unless you are able to back it up, then I would consider you joking, and nor higher than delusions. Hope you will able to make it this time and provide some reliable statistics.

You gave examples of five faculties, so what ?! still you didnt answer the question how mny RF positions are filled with PhD compared to those RF positions filled with MD ?! if it is difficult for you to answer, then please don't make such assertions as you did.

23:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Didn't you read what I said, four times as many PhDs as MDs. Mootros (talk) 00:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

No I did read what you have said several time that why I have been questioning it. Didnt you read what I have been writing to you all day ?! Please provide reliable references to back up your claim. And i already pointed out the flaws in your way of thinking, but it seem that you always miss what I say. I am wondering why is that ?! Kushsinghmd (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

If you feel we are not getting anywhere you should take this to an abitration commitee or the likes. I thought we have made some progress today. Mootros (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Honestly with your approach repeating alrady addressed poitns over and over, with your several trials to get us into vicious circles, in addition to your major lack of basic knowledge about medical system either in US or even in UK, and just depending on copying information that you google , makes me very desperate. Thanks Kushsinghmd (talk) 20:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Check this out: http://www.durham.hsrd.research.va.gov/fellowmd.asp if needs explanation please let me know, I would be happy explain it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kushsinghmd (talk • contribs) 21:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

This article is about the position Research Fellow not about some form of sponsorship called fellowship as a part of a training programme. Nobody doubts that MDs do research and work as RF. I highly doubt that most RFs across the board have MDs. Mootros (talk) 22:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Does not look like any RFs with MDs are here outside academia Mootros (talk)

Again you missed the point, previously you told me to note the PhD are mentioned first., Did you notice here that MD are mentioned first. So your claim is just absurd!

also, you previously disputed the fact that MDs are engaged in research, so clearly this proves you wrong.

You say you highly doubt, good for you. Unless you provide solid information, then your doubts will stay as such.

one more point is that you clearly seem to have confusion about fellowship and sponsorship, cause they share great similarities, but anyway, doesn't matter, since you showed already much confsuin in the whole rest.

thanks Kushsinghmd (talk) 23:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Explaining common abbreviations

I asked the expansion of abbreviation question on the manual of style talk page. The relevant discussion is here. --RegentsPark (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. That how I made it first. I I didnt spell out PhD, but I spelled out MD. However user Mootros deleted the spelled out version saying it is a bias either all spelled out or all abbreviated. So he forced me to put PhD in a speeled out version. Yet he changed this to keep the abbreviated version claiming that links would be sufficeient. However when faced with guidlines of Peer reviewed Journals in sppeling out abbreviations in the begining of articles, he took back his word. And now he was trying not to put any abbreviations. I am really confused with his positions. He just trying to say no to any change! Kushsinghmd (talk) 17:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Note: "MD maybe..." Doctoral degree might itself be sufficient. Mootros (talk) 18:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

No doctoral is not sufficient. MD in abbreviated form only is not sufficeint as well. Kushsinghmd (talk) 18:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Appeal for more discussion

I've just had to protect this for an hour. The discussions above, that I admit I skimmed through, looked like they where making some progress but that seemed to fall by the way. Can I urge all parties to back away a little, and not edit war, as that will just result in further protection or worse still account blocks. Pedro :  Chat  22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I thought. I added relevant citations accordingly, but this immediately rejected. Mootros (talk) 22:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm off-line shortly but can I please ask that we don't head back to a revert war - if that happens then editors can use WP:RFPP or at worst WP:ANI but let's all try to avoid that ! Pedro :  Chat  22:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

user Motroos has shown total disrespect, and very unethical behaviour. He claimed several times falsely that I am vanadlizing the article, warning me on my profile!!. He also switched positions of the degrees delibretaly after he failed to respond to his own discussion and after being exposed of making Hoxus claims, especially when he was asked about a source and he completley showed a total misunderstanding of the topic (as clearly shown in the discussion). He twistwd facts, showed total incosistency, biased methodology and horribly flaw arguments!! Accordingly his recent edits to the topic (specially switching positions) are COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE, and he should be warned against such disruptive behaviours.Kushsinghmd (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi Kushsinghmd. I'd ask that you comment on content not contributors. It's fairly clear you're not happy with the article but you need to understand that it is simply not about what you think or Motroos thinks. It's about gaining consensus. I declined the report to WP:AIV to block your account, and frankly don't care at all about this article - which ironically makes me an ideal neutral party. We don't want recrimination or soap-boxing - we need honest debate on how to make the article better without reference to warnings, blocks et.al. I'm just keen to see the article progress without disruption if possible. Pedro :  Chat  22:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Dear Pedro: First I have to thank you very much for your prompt and effective intervention. Second , Yes I am dealing with content. I don't know user's real name, however I mentioned his username for identification of the provided content. And I think that my whole comment was directed about the content, and yes the content has been horribly flawed, irrational, off topic sometimes. but anyways: My question Now is clear: Why were the positions of degree switched where it is still under discussion ?!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats absolutely unethical , and compeletly unacceptable. We can't be disccuing an issue, and then because you fail to complete the discussion and fail to provide a solid argument, so you go take the action you liked that you have been trying to do several times. And to cover such unethical actions, he added few citations in a trial to make it look as if it is a constructive edit. However, If intentions were really adding citations, why then switching positions and changing the orders??????????. Yet claiming Vandalism on my side, yea right !! Again Thanks pedro, for you positive actions. Kushsinghmd (talk) 22:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

(copied in from talkpage: Where next? Research Fellow) Hi, Thanks for intervening. I noticed you protected the article. What happens next? What would be the best do with when user persists that no changes (i.e. addition of 9 citations) are possible, during an RfC? Mootros (talk) 22:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Commented on talk, appealing for calm (optimistically!). It's a one hour protection. I don't want to see anyone blocked over this. The RFC may give a good outcome, and I urge you to stick with it if possible. I think the position is clear that now the page has had to be fully locked down, further edit wars will result in account blocks. As an aside I'd ask you not to use WP:AIV for stuff like this as it's simply to complex for that board - use WP:ANI if the edit war re-occurs but hopefully a middle ground can be struck. Pedro :  Chat  22:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the positive approach. We had discussion input from the MOS notice board (on some issues of the disagreement), but unfortunately this has not help to resolve the issue. Neither has the introduction of references. I will stay back for the moment; hope we don't have to take this RfC further. Mootros (talk) 22:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

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