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As an aside, do you dispute anything outside the Marxist theory section? If so, what? -- ] 18:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC) As an aside, do you dispute anything outside the Marxist theory section? If so, what? -- ] 18:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
:Certainly, but lets do one thing at a time. ] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


== Criticisms of capitalism == == Criticisms of capitalism ==

Revision as of 18:22, 25 January 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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Rewrite

I still intent to follow the goal stated under the heading "New Year goal." I am sorry for the hold up. I look forward to incorporating much of Ultramarine's text shortly. 172 18:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I've been working on that on my own, offline. I should in fact be finished with my rewrite by tomorrow or the day after. So as to avoid creating parallel versions again, might I ask you to hold off any major edits until you see my rewrite? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 15:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Economic Development

Why is there not one mention of the fact that Communist States routinely suffer lower standards of living then their "counterparts" in almost any given region? Reading the article now we would be led to believe that the Communist nations have made the same economic progress as capitalist nations (helped along with misleading charts). CJK 15:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

First of all, there are plenty of mentions of this criticism. For example:
  • Critics typically condemn Communist states by the same criteria, claiming that all lag far behind the industrialized West in terms of economic development and living standards.
  • However, the Soviet Union did not achieve the same kind of development in agriculture (forcing the Soviet Union to become a net importer of cereals after the Second World War). Other Communist states, such as Laos, Vietnam or Maoist China, continued in poverty; China has only achieved high rates of growth after introducing free market economic reforms — a sign, claim the critics, of the superiority of capitalism. Another example is Czechoslovakia, which was a developed industrial country approaching Western standards prior to World War II, but fell behind the West in the post-war era.
  • In general, critics of Communist states argue that they remained behind the industrialized West in terms of economic development for most of their existence...
Second, there are many capitalist nations - far more than Communist states. Whether the standards of living in Communist states were high or low depends on what capitalist nations you compare them with, and what criteria you use for comparison. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 16:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid Nikodemos is ignorantly unaware of the differences in capitalist forms. There are statist capitalists, protectionist capitalist, free market capitalist. I'm sure that Nikodemos would like to include many african, asian, and south american countries as capitalist despite their heavy anti-capitalist controls and then blame capitalism for all the problems caused by socialists policies. Its not that communism just wont work and capitalism does it better, its the fact that the more you reduce economic freedom the worse off you get. Capitalist or otherwise. (Gibby 16:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

That is your POV. An argument could be made that African, Asian and South American countries cannot possibly be any less capitalist than European social democratic welfare states. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 16:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

One thing that can be noted is that the wealth disparity between rich and poor between the Soviet Union and United States was negligible. Meaning that there was the same wealth disparity between each countries rich and poor. But, the United States had far more rich, and far richer rich. Drawing from this information and given the fact that the disparity was the same you can also conlclude that America's average poor also had more wealth than the Soviet poor. (Gibby 16:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

I think this is a pivotal issue. Marx assumed that a socialist society would produce material abundance. Perhaps it would if workers had the freedom to innovate, but under Lenin a centralized bureaucracy was built and most odd arrangements in Russia were merged into standard patterns. Anyone who was attempting to innovate was mired in red tape. To successfully engage in any major project, a sponsor had to be found at the highest level of the government. Once found, such a sponsor, could lose favor and a major industrial project could be forced to languish. One example of this phenomenon can be found in Engineering Communism: How Two Americans Spied for Stalin and Founded the Soviet Silicon Valley, ISBN 0300108745 This is the story of Joel Barr and Alfred Sarant, American Communists who having spied for the Soviet Union, managed to successfully flee during the time of the Rosenberg trials to the Soviet Union. Despite having backing from the KGB and from Khrushchev they were eventually drug down and sidelined. Breshnev personally played a significant role in suppressing their work. Fred Bauder 16:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

My point is that while economic growth is mentioned, it does not mention standards of living which were significantly different in the divided regions such as East Asia and Europe. We are only using the Soviet Union as a comparison, Communist nations elsewhere go unmentioned with regards to their growth. CJK 16:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

That's because I was unable to find statistics for them... My source book is called Economic Growth in the Soviet Union, after all. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe that's not the way to phrase it. After World War II, both Western and Eastern Europe had an economic boom, which slowed down in the East in the 1970s and 80s. Yet Western Europe provided the higher living standards. Same with Korea and China. Why is that not noted? CJK 20:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I think marx believed that capitalism created the material abundance and socialism just spread it around. Marx never denied that capitalism was great at building wealth. (Gibby 16:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

Then you clearly don't know much about Marx. He said capitalism was great at creating wealth, but socialism would be better. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Show me where he said that (Gibby 17:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

And Nikodemos you are wrong. There is a huge difference in outcomes between statist, protectionist, and free market policies within a country. You seem to think that capitalism just means it has a monetary system and stock market. Under a strict definition statism and protectionism are not included in capitalism thus capitalism cannot be included with colonialism. I make the distinctions for the unaware populist minded people who are likely to disagree on grounds they dont even understand themselves.

Your real problem with "capitalism" is the anti free market policies you actually like...those create the problems you dislike. (Gibby 16:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

Gibby, be civil

And stop throwing around accusations. For the sake of a coherent article, the total estimates have to come right after the paragraphs dealing with Stalin and Mao. It makes no sense to first talk about Stalin and Mao, then explain the reasons for discrepancies in the estimates, and then give total estimates. If you don't want them all in one paragraph, we can always split it up. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

it does however make sense to hide them in the body of the article where you can delete them altogether...as you have already tried to delete them about a dozen times to date. Despite having sources.

Your goal based on all your actions, has been to get rid of the total estimates while sarcastically remarking on criticisms of communism and the deaths communist countries have caused. (Gibby 18:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

I have no intention of deleting them, and, in any case, you would easily be able to tell if I did, just by looking at the diffs. I cannot "hide" anything. What I want is for this article to present all viewpoints, and that includes all the many differing estimates. Now that we have a good collection of death toll estimates by various historians, everything is fine. Honestly, Gibby, you should try being friendly for a change. You'll be amazed how much easier you will settle disputes that way. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea)

If you read above you'll remember I asked you to stop deleting these numbers which you thought were unfair to communism and "too high". I told you to get other sources and add them in. Yet you deleted a few more times before giving up. I'm allowing other sources because thats the right thing to do, but I"m not going to let you bs your way through denying your deletion of the 3 original loss of life figures. You did that multiple times (Gibby 21:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

Of course I did, because, at the time, they were the only figures that the article provided, and don't you think it's just a little unfair to provide only the highest estimates? My reasoning, as I explained at the time, was that we should either provide a wide selection of high and low estimates, or none at all. Initially I wanted to go with none at all, but, after you insisted otherwise, I went and found a wide selection of estimates and put them in. It's POV to give only the highest estimates, or only the lowest. NPOV is to give all the estimates (or none, but you are right that doing that would detract from the quality of information that the reader receives). -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 08:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Factual inaccuracies and NPOV

Again, this has turned into an article for POV-pushers who are not interested in factual inaccuracy or NPOV. Most the criticisms against Marxist theory has been deleted and the text contains numerous factual inaccuracies. See the section "List of proposed changes above". Added template. Ultramarine 09:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

A correct, very well-referenced version can be found here .Ultramarine 20:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Your game is up, Ultramarine. The text is now entirely well-sourced, with no less than 59 references. Furthermore, the "List of proposed changes", above, no longer applies, since the article has been substantially overhauled since you wrote it. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 04:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox! For example, no explanation has been given for the extreme deletions of well-sourced crticisms of Marxist theory! Ultramarine 04:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Your old version had a bunch of smaller sections on criticisms of Marxist theory, whereas the new version has two larger sections covering much the same information. If you wish to add back something that you think was important yet has been removed, please do so. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 04:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Simply and grossly false. See the previous crticisms of Marxist theory here . If I do the slightest edit of the material of any kind, I will be accused of edit-warring. Therefore, I will add templates and seek a consensus on the talk page. Ultramarine 05:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
No, you will not be accused of edit-warring. You are cordially invited to edit, or, at the very least, state exactly what arguments you would wish to see re-added (a short description will suffice). -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 05:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
My well-sourced arguments are already presented in the link given. Ultramarine 05:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Then you are cordially invited to put them back in alongside the other well-sourced arguments. You are not invited to move your original POV text elsewhere, as you are now attempting to do. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 05:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Does this mean that you will not the delete the well-sourced material? Ultramarine 05:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I will not delete any of your references. I might rephrase the way in which you present the material, I might move paragraphs around and try to re-organize sections, I might add information from my own research, but I will not remove your points. Now, please, stop trying to move your material to other articles and bring it here where we can work on it. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 05:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I will preliminary move back the entire Marxist section. I will place it after the current similar section for the moment. Objections? Ultramarine 05:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
None. This will result in some redundancy, so I suggest placing some sort of "work in progress" template at the head of the Marxism section. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 05:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I assume you have no objections to my removing the material you re-added here from the Marxism article? Once we reach consensus here, we can write a summary of it there. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 06:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Not as long as the sourced material here is not deleted. Ultramarine 06:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Now our first task here is to remove redundancies. Please note that all material from your sections "Historical materialism", "Marx's predictions" and "Pseudoscience" has been included in my section "Historical materialism". With your consent, I would like to remove the redundant sections. If you object, please point out the material that I have not included (if any exists; I can't remember), so that we may discuss it. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 06:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Looking at predictions first:
1. Ricardo did not make any similar predictions
2. It should be mentioned that still another stage had to be invented after Lenin's "highest stage".
3. The weasel statement "Many have argued that Marx's original predictions did come true, but on a global level rather than a national one (e.g. that it is the global poor who are getting poorer, rather than the poor in any given country)." should be removed since it is both unsourced and simply false. Read the globalization article. Ultramarine 06:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Ricardo did predict that workers' living standards would tend towards the subsistence level. See Iron law of wages. As far as I know, no Marxist has postulated the existence of any stage above Lenin's "highest stage". If any have done so, their views have certainly not drawn wide acceptance among Marxists. For the most part, however, Marxists argue that "neocolonialism" is simply another kind of imperialism, rather than a new stage of capitalism above imperialism. As for the last statement, I will remove it, though I will also look for references on the view that Marx's predictions did indeed come true. Anything else? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 06:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Ricardo made none of the predictions Marx made. The iron law does not necessarily mean that workers must get continually poorer as Marx predicted. Yhe other points I can agree on.Ultramarine 07:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Both Marx and Ricardo argued that workers' wages would naturally be driven down to the subsistence level. Do you deny this? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 08:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Marx stated that the workers would get continually poorer, Ricardo did not. In addition, Ricardo thought that factprs like technological development could at least temporarily avoid the iron law. Marx instead thought that the new technology would make the workers poorer. Ultramarine 08:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Surely you see that there are at least similarities between Ricardo's and Marx's predictions? Marx did not pull his economic theory out of thin air, after all. He based it on the works of Smith and Ricardo. Perhaps we should mention that instead of trying to draw analogies between predictions? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
How about this? Marx's predictions regarding poverty had some similarity with predictions made by other economists at the time, like Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages. Ultramarine 06:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Ricardo published before Marx was born; so this proposed phrasing is somewhat misleading. Septentrionalis 22:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
This goes as well: Marx's predictions regarding poverty had some similarity with predictions made by other economists before him, like Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages. Ultramarine 14:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Anything else? (note: I might not be online every day, so please don't wait for my reply before opening a new point; I don't know about you, but I think we should aim to reach consensus as soon as possible so that we can lie this six-month-old dispute to rest) -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
An additional point, I would like a source or removal of this "Marx himself never placed a particularly strong importance on these predictions, as he believed them to be a form of educated guesswork." There is certainly no doubt from Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto regarding these predictions. Ultramarine 07:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed, pending verification with sources. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine, you have re-added the TotallyDisputed tag at the head of the article, despite the fact that our dispute seems to be restricted to the Marxist theory section. Notice that the Communist states section contains all of the arguments and sources you originally brought up. As such, please state your objections to the Communist states section or remove the tag. Allegations of factual inaccuracy seem particularly far-fetched to me. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't some of the disputes relate to the emmigration section also? See the discussion on this page.--Silverback 18:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
They are not disputes of factual accuracy or NPOV; in fact, I'm not exactly sure on what grounds is the emigration section disputed. It appears that some users consider Albert Szymanski's views to be plainly wrong. That, however, does not constitute grounds for dispute. If we were all allowed to remove arguments we consider wrong, there would be very little left of this article. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 21:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Today's work report: I did some merging of information from the redundant sections, I merged three small sections (general critique, tabula rasa and Marx's view of human rights) into one bigger section with no change of content for now, and I've attempted to start a rewrite of the relevance section, which was inadequate and partially redundant. I'm not entirely sure if we should keep it at all, but that's something to discuss. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 07:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Emigration

This section seems to out of its way to make excuses for the communists, as in going back to 18th and 19th Century Europe's emigration policy to justify the communist state's. Does anyone think that should be removed? CJK 20:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Another good example of the attempt of trying to turn Misplaced Pages into a soapbox. Ultramarine 20:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove sourced information. Ultramarine, you should hardly be the one to talk about turning wikipedia into a soapbox. CJK, the source of the information in that section specifically draws a parallel between the emigration policy of 19th century Western Europe and Eastern Europe during the Cold War. It may be seen as a pro-Communist state argument, but the whole point of NPOV policy is to present arguments from all sides, isn't it? What would be your grounds for removing that section? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 04:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Why have you deleted so much well-sourced crtical material then? And replaced it with you own views like the above. This a gross attempt to turn Wikpedia into a soapbox. Ultramarine 05:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe I have deleted any material critical of Communist states; rather, I have reorganized and added a lot. In the Marxism section I have attempted to do the same, though I admit I have removed critiques of individual Marxists and their behaviour, which do not strike me as objections to Marxist theory. Please add things back in if you believe they were unjustly removed, but do not take out relevant well-sourced material. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 05:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the attempt to justify emmigration restrictions based on past practices, the relevant comparisons are contemporary. The text was wrong anyway, calling in referring to pre 19th century nations as capitalist when they were feudal or at best mercantilist.--Silverback 09:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Do not remove sourced information. The fact that you disagree with the arguments put forward by a historian does not justify you censoring that historian. He explains that he is comparing emigration standards in Communist states to those present in capitalist states at similar stages of development. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 09:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Uhh... I don't think 19th Century Austria-Hungary was at the same development as 20th Century Eastern Europe, no. In fact, last time I checked Austria-Hungary had many areas which in the future would be communists. Those that were had restrictions. Those that weren't did not. This seems like a cheap attempt to pass off communist restrictions based on tradition rather than the obvious fact that millions of people wanted to get out of there. CJK 18:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you want me to scan the relevant pages of the book and upload them somewhere for you to read? Seriously... Cheap attempt or not, it is sourced. I think the Black Book of Communism is a cheap attempt to smear Communism by selectively presenting exaggerated accounts of its dark side while ignoring its achievements as well as the equally dark side of capitalism, but you don't see me trying to remove all mention of it on those grounds, do you? The whole point of NPOV is to present all views on a subject, even those you consider stupid or misguided. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 21:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
If the Black Book makes some wild and unrelated accusation, then it can be removed as well. CJK 23:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way: For the record, I wish to state that, as far as my own POV is concerned, I do not support Communist states. I do, however, support the right of their advocates to have their views and opinions presented on an equal footing with those of anti-Communists. My attitude towards supporters of Communist states is "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". In any culture during any historical age, there is a dominant cultural bias that often taints discussions of recent history. I am sure a Roman would insist that Carthage was the embodiment of Evil just as vigurously as most present-day Westerners condemn Communist states. We cannot allow our own biases and views on what is "obvious" to interfere with NPOV. I guarantee you, CJK, that in 500 years the question of the goodness or evil of Communist states will be as moot as the question of the goodness or evil of the Byzantine empire is today. I advise you to write as if you lived 500 years in the future. That's what I try to do. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 21:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Or maybe 500 years from now communist states will be remembered like the Mongol Empire. You never know. But I'll stick with the present. I don't think there was anything called democracy and mass communication or freedom of speech back then. I know some of you leftists want to believe that every government is equally evil in its own way, but the fact of matter is, proven by history over and over again, is that communism has been a massive failure compared to other nations. 23:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
History proves nothing. History only gives you raw data, and different people interpret this data in different ways to "prove" different things. Consider, for example, the term "failure". What does it mean to fail? It means that you had a goal, you tried to achieve it, and you did not succeed in doing so. Whether X is a failure depends entirely on what its intended goals were. In some ways, the Communist states did fail - they failed to reach communism, for example. But in other ways they didn't. Did Stalin fail? No, I think he managed to achieve all his intended goals. From a purely Machiavellian standpoint, he was a smashing success. Sure, he killed millions of people, but so did Alexander the Great. All empire-builders are mass murderers, yet, more often than not, history ends up viewing them with admiration. Thus, I think it is a safe bet to say that Hitler and Stalin will one day be seen the same way we see Alexander or Hannibal or Caesar or Charlemagne today. Or Genghis Khan, now that you mention it. Read his article. Apparently he's a national hero in Mongolia. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
And, finally: Albert Szymanski does not try to justify emigration restrictions based on tradition. He does not deny that many people wanted to leave the Communist states; what he does say is that Communist states were by no means alone in recent history in having large numbers of would-be emigrants, and that other countries enforced similar measures when faced with similar population pressures. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 21:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
19th Century Austria-Hungary is not "recent history". If we want to be fair, we would have to compare the emigration with other nations at the same time. CJK 23:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
If we want to be fair, we cannot ignore history. In any case, you still haven't given any valid reason for the removal or sourced information. I'm still not sure what it is that you are disputing... Surely it can't be factual accuracy. Relevance? Well, you think past emigration policies are irrelevant, but Szymanski thinks that they are. Unlike some (*cough* Ultramarine *cough*), I am not a citation Nazi. I will allow you to add unsourced arguments as long as they are reasonably intuitive, and as long as all sides are presented in a NPOV manner. There is certainly nothing wrong with noting that the Communist states had emigration policies comparable to those of 19th century western capitalist countries, but much more strict than those of late 20th century western capitalist countries. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Factual accuracy and neutrality

Unfortunately Nikodemos has again massively deleted well-sourced material and even removed disputing templates! See earlier discussions and the prior superior version.

I have not deleted, I have merged. Please discuss my changes and improvements and my attempts to achieve consensus on a well-referenced and NPOV version. By the way, I have not deleted any of your references; I have in fact used many of them in my rewrite. I have removed disputing templates from the head of the article because only a section of it (the Marxist theory section) is under dispute. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Grossly false, for example the important section "Relevance of the Communist states for Marxist theory" has lost all references and specific examples.Ultramarine 17:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
If you tried to edit the article, you would notice that all content is still there, except as a <!-- comment -->. I did that because it was partly redundant and partly failed to address all sides of the debate. If you find my decision objectionable, wouldn't it have been far easier to simply remove the comment brackets? I'll do that myself if you wish. Can we please go back to working towards consensus now? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 17:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, please remove the brackets. Obviously, hiding the contents is as objectionable as deleting.Ultramarine 18:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Done. The contents need some work, but we can take care of that later. Let's discuss changes one by one. I wish to direct your attention towards my merger of our sections on Historical materialism and the LTV. Please read them and comment. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 18:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, do you dispute anything outside the Marxist theory section? If so, what? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 18:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, but lets do one thing at a time. Ultramarine 18:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms of capitalism

Since this article exists, maybe someone should start a criticisms of capitalism article? (An actual article, not a redirect to anti-capitalism) I know lots of people would like to piss Ultramarine off, here is your perfect opportunity! Off the top of my head, I can think of:

  • colonialisation - enslaved whole foreign populations - and even occuring today.
  • bogus trade wars - killing people for profit - again, occuring today.
  • wage slavery - poor worker conditions - again, occuring today
  • SLAVE TRIANGLE!! Yippe!!!

Wow. So capitalists kill people for profit, the communists killed people because they thought it was the right thing to do. Which is worse? Blind stupidity or lustful greed? Infinity0 17:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds very interesting. Cite sources. Note that pro-capitalits deny that colonisation was capitalism.Ultramarine 17:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
After the fact, of course. Pro-capitalists in the age of colonization were quite proud of it. But this is off-topic. Ultramarine doesn't need to get "pissed off", he needs to learn to play well with others and stop POV-pushing. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 18:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

And most people deny genocide was communism, but that still doesn't stop it being used as a counter-argument... Infinity0 17:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

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