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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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A news item involving Murder of Meredith Kercher was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 5 December 2009.

This article was nominated for deletion on 31 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Trial of Knox and Sollecito was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 December 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

The contents of the Meredith Kercher page were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher on 13 November 2007. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

The contents of the Amanda Knox page were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher on 13 November 2007. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Restored omission: Police released Guede days before murder

11-Feb-10: The article has been re-expanded to note that Rudy Guede had been caught with a large stolen knife (16-inch, 40-cm) inside a closed Milan school on 27-Oct-07 (5 days before the murder) with a laptop PC reported stolen 14-Oct-07 from a Perugia law office burgled with a rock breaking an upstairs window. The Perugia police were notified Guede had the laptop, plus a cellphone also stolen from the Perugia office with the broken window. However, Guede was released by the Milan police, and not transferred to the Perugia police, as testified by the two Perugia solicitors (attorneys) at the Knox/Sollecito trial hearing on 26-June-2009 and by the school director 27 June. Hence, the reports of Guede holding a woman's watch, a hammer, a stolen knife and stolen property from a prior upstairs-window burglary could be confirmed by Milan police, Perugia police, and the 2 solicitors (lawyers Palazzoli and Paolo Brocchi) whose PC, printer and mobile phone were stolen on 14-Oct-07. I regret these major events had been omitted from the article, even until late December, while the details had been in major news reports in June 2009. The details are not rumors, but rather, confirmed by Milan police, Perugia police, Judge Micheli, and court testimony of 3 professionals. See source "Knox Trial Witness Points Finger at Guede" by Ann Wise (Rome) 26Jun09, web: ABCNews. -Wikid77 23:49, 11 February 2010

Draft new version

As discussed above, MLauba recommended that we should rewrite the article as a factual account, and there was a consensus to go ahead with this. Also above, at the end of May, The Magnificent Clean-keeper notified people that a draft was ready for discussion. I have now proposed that the draft should be moved here, to replace the current article and there is a straw poll in progress on the draft's talk page. Please take the opportunity (on that page) to say if you agree with this proposal. Bluewave (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Deleting the Defense Side of the Story Will Violate NPOV and BLP

This proposal to substitute a one sided, pro-guilt/pro-prosecution article, drafted in virtual secrecy mostly by one or two people, for the far more balanced article that currently exists--and which dozens of people have contributed hundreds of hours to-- is simply outrageous!!!

I don't agree with the way this is transpiring at all. This new proposed substituted article is highly POV, and was drafted behind closed doors by editors who all agree with one another. Meanwhile, there is unwelcoming, sometimes hostile and bullying treatment of those who do not hold similar views. All editing should be done out in the open, with fair and equal opportunity for everyone to participate. That means, editing should be done on the article page, not some page that people clicking on here don't know about. This is not a procedure that is consistent with the Wiki policy of having articles open for everyone in the world to participate in.

No one group "owns" this article or Misplaced Pages. By removing almost all the info that supports the defense side of the story, the proposed article is clearly unbalanced. The reader will come away with the view that A and R are certainly guilty, although that is disputed by thousands of people and no final determination of guilt or innocence has been made. The substituted article in no way complies with NPOV or BLP. I have contacted the Misplaced Pages Foundation because what is going on is in no way consistent with the rules and polices of Misplaced Pages. I have contributed financially to Misplaced Pages on the basis that all editors can contribute to an article, and that basic policies like NPOV and BLP are to be followed. But it seems that things are just getting worse and worse and worse with these efforts to block out the defense side of the story, or to make the defense side sound ridiculous, and now also trying to block any other information about Amanda Knox from being included in other articles on the website, and trying to get those with other opinions blocked or banned. There needs to be compliance with NPOV, BLP and basic fairness and respect for those with other views. Throwing away hundreds of hours of work of other editors, just because you don't want the defense side of the story included, is beyond unfair. Zlykinskyja (talk) 22:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

There should be no removal of this article, with substitution of a pro-guilt, pro-prosecution article, until someone at the Misplaced Pages Foundation approves of this. Zlykinskyja (talk) 22:44, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not wish to comment on the alleged pro-Knox and anti-Knox factions, because that's a matter of opinion: I believe that no such thing as an anti-Knox cabal exists; you disagree. You're entitled to your opinions. However, I object to your claim that the new article was drafted behind closed doors. Since May 16, there has been, at the beginning of the article a rather visible template, informing all users of the drafting attempt, as can be seen here; and you've been personally notified on your talk page of said attempt, as can be seen here. You chose not to intervene. It's, once again, your prerogative, but you shouldn't claim that TMC-k and the others acted surreptitiously.

And, by the way, even if the draft gets moved to the mainspace, as I hope it will be, for I think it is a much better article than the one we have here, it's not set in stone. All editors can, collegially, edit it. Salvio ( ) 23:08, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I note that people on here just got Wikid77 blocked for three months because he allegedly communicated behind closed doors, called "canvassing." Why isn't re-writing a whole article just with a group of people who all agree with each other, with no clear notice to the public what is going on or where this draft is located, or how they can participate, even worse? This sure looks worse to me, like some sort of Tag Team situation, even if it isn't exactly canvassing. I don't see why it is okay for a group to plan to remove a whole article behind closed doors, while what he did is so egregious you wanted him blocked for three months. In my opinion, this attempted re-write behind closed doors violates Misplaced Pages policy on openness. That is all I am going to say for now at this level. Have a nice day. Zlykinskyja (talk) 23:37, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikid77 is not blocked; he has just been topic banned, you can read why here. Anyway, that's not the point, IMHO. The point is that the existence of the draft has never been hidden. Even as we speak there's a notice on this article, pointing there. If you wish you can edit the draft or wait for it to be moved and the edit it, here. Nobody is trying to approach this in a cloak and dagger fashion. Salvio ( ) 23:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

The notice at the top of the page reads "This article is going through a major rewrite which was outsourced to a subpage. You are welcome to assist by editing it." If you have not accepted the invitation that the Magnificent Clean-keeper left on your talkpage, I hardly think that you have grounds to complain on this page that the rewrite has been "drafted behind closed doors". Could you also attempt to explain the glaring discrepancy of your allegation that the draft is "highly POV" when it includes a section titled "Support for Knox"? Finally, for someone who claims that there is "unwelcoming, sometimes hostile and bullying treatment of those who do not hold similar views", it does not appear sensible to place misrepresentative and aggressive notices such as this on an AfD discussion page. SuperMarioMan 01:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

As a side note, user Zlykinskyja was blocked for a month this morning. Salvio ( ) 12:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Distance to Rome

The distance of Perugia from Rome has been added recently. Firstly this is in a very curious place. Why not with the first mention of Perugia? In the middle of the paragraph about Knox and Solicito's trial. And why is there mention of the location of this trial but not of Guede's which was also in Perugia? Why in the introduction at all since this is trivia and anyone not knowing about Perugia can follow the link.

Anyway this distance is incorrect. Perugia is 135km = 84miles Kwenchin (talk) 02:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Amanda Knox

Who decided that the Amanda Knox page should be redirected here? There certainly did NOT seem to be consensus on the matter during the discussion. Was the discussion real, or was the redirect already decided and the discussion just a cover? These types of actions make people afraid to create articles. Michaelh2001 (talk) 23:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It looks like the admin felt there was a consensus for "redirect" on the basis that the keep !votes did not carry strong policy arguments (in the view of the admin). Personally, I think this was a good call, but if you want to pursue the matter, perhaps commenting on User_talk:MuZemike would be a good first step. --FormerIP (talk) 10:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, it's ok. I don't feel THAT strongly about it. My point of view is that the murder became notable because an American was the suspect. Although I feel that the suspect (and her behavior) generated the international interest (not to disparage the victim here in any way), I'm more than willing to accept the admin decision here. The admins have to make a lot of tough calls, but generally do a great job! Michaelh2001 (talk) 17:12, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed para

I removed this:

In the early stages of the investigation, well before the trials of the defendants, some of the details of the evidence were made known to the media and were commented on freely around the world. The UK media, who, at home, are constrained by the Contempt of Court Act 1981 (which criminalises the publication of information about cases which are sub judice), freely published details of the evidence and opinions about events surrounding the murder.

This seems to me to be an unnecessary amount of detail and I can't see how it helps the reader. --FormerIP (talk) 12:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Despite repeated requests prior to and during the rewrite, the article still is very heavily based on sensational news reports. Is it really necessary to start tagging them all with {{better source}}, or will editors exercise some modicum of academic self-discipline about this? Few if any of the useful points need these sources. If it is absolutely necessary to use news sources, try to find better ones that are not from Italian, US, or UK sources pandering to their national audiences. Try English-language services in other European nations, though there might also be some coverage in Australia, Canada, India, or even China. Google News Archive can help with that. In the rare cases where it might be constructive to discuss national viewpoints (though nothing really comes to mind) it should be from first-tier news publications, not slashervision. The article should also lose the refs to ambulance chaser television programs such as are seen on many Fox News affiliates. Treating these as WP:reliable sources is indefensible. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:24, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I generally agree, but think that what type of source is used ought to relate to the likelihood that a statement will be contentious. So, for example, I've just replaced a few dead links such as one for the amount of damaged awarded to Lumumba. I've used Sky News for this, just because it came close to the top in Google, and I can't see why that type of source isn't suitable for that type of info. Also, I think some of the reports in what people might think of as "quality" publications also appear quite lurid (for example, we have a source from The Times which has "I will drink your blood" in its headline). --FormerIP (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Clearly that's an instance of a headline writer getting carried away. The article puts the line in context as a lame bit of Facebook humour. But still, what statement does that source provide support for that can't be done using a less partisan source? LeadSongDog come howl! 20:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm probably one of the main culprits for referencing The Times. This is for several reasons: one is that it's the only daily paper that I read, so I'm quite familiar with its coverage of the case; second, it still has some credentials as a "quality" paper (though not many!); third, The Times does not seem to have had an editorial policy on the case and its coverage has included a range of views. However, I agree that the article would benefit from some better sources. To make things worse, The Times is now making its archive into a subscription-only site, which will really bugger all our references. Just one caution on using non-UK/US news media: quite a lot of the English-language material is traceable back to the same UK journalists who write for the national papers. For example, Nick Pisa's material crops up in lots of publications internationally, although he writes for the Daily Mail. Bluewave (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Timings

The article quotes Amanda Fox and Raffaele Sollecito phoning people starting at 12:07pm on 2nd November and the police then arriving. This fits in with the quoted time in Seattle being 4:00 a.m. but did this happen 13 hours after the murder at c.11:00 p.m. on the 1st Prestonmag (talk)

Recent additions

These recent additions are, I think, problematic. The quotations are from, among others:

1. John Q. Kelly
2. Paul Ciolino
3. Doug Preston
4. Judy Bachrach
5. Peter Van Sant
6. Timothy Egan
7. Donald Trump

and a lot of them are sourced to youtube.

This raises some questions, including;

Are these commentators themselves reliable sources? Is Donald Trump qualified to opine on a murder case? Who the hell is John Q Kelly? should youtube be a reliable source for programme content?

  pablo_hablo. 15:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I thought the whole newly-added material unbalances the section on media coverage. But I have held off editing it for several reasons: for one thing I was a major contributor to the new version of the article and am now trying to stand back a bit. This is also one area of the article where I have strong personal views (I get quite irate at the arrogance of people who don't appear to have troubled to examine the case in any depth but consider themselves better able to comment on the verdict than the judges, who spent almost a year of their lives studying thousands of pages of evidence, over a hundred witnesses, etc). For instance Judy Bachrach has also claimed that the Italian justice system is based on the "the inquisition" and that, in Italy, you are "guilty until proven innocent". Bluewave (talk) 17:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

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