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Inaccuracies

Just because the book is important doesn't mean its inaccuracies can't be listed. Malcolm X was known for exaggerating events to serve his rhetorical needs---a wikipedia article should be balanced enough to acknowledge that the book contains inaccuracies proffered by Malcolm X himself, and not due to any error by Haley. Both of the facts listed--the palming of the bullet and the misstating the historical nature of Atilla the Hun---are valid criticisms of Malcom X's autobiography. The final chapters added by Haley after Malcolm's death detail the "palming the bullet" story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.27.111.123 (talk) 01:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if the criticisms are valid, they can't be added to the article unless there is a source stating who has made them. ... discospinster _talk 02:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You describe the book's "many inaccuracies" as "notabl". If they are significant, it shouldn't be hard to find a verifiable reliable source that makes those criticisms. Without a source, that's just your own personal commentary, which is inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. — ] (] · ]) 02:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not logical. 1st. The story about Malcolm X "palming the bullet" is IN THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY'S POSTHUMUS CHAPTER. In other words, the citing the story would involve citing the article itself. 2nd. THE STORY ABOUT ATILLA THE HUN IS LINKED TO WIKIPEDIA'S ARTICLE ON ATILLA. You're just trying to stifle criticism of X. Note how you don't allow anything bad in the article criticizing him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.27.111.123 (talk) 15:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In the first case, if the claim is made in the book itself, then the citation would be the book. In the second case, unfortunately one Misplaced Pages article cannot use another Misplaced Pages article as its source (or any open-wiki-type site for that matter). If the claim in Atilla the Hun has a citation, then you can use that citation for this article as well. It's not a matter of "allowing" criticism; it's about verifying claims, whether they are positive or negative. If someone added that Malcolm X developed a cure for cancer, that would be removed too, if it wasn't referenced! ... discospinster _talk 15:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

First, Malcolm didn't have a daughter named Attila. Her name is Attallah. Second, nobody would mistake his Autobiography for a book of ancient history (he makes a three word, parenthetical mention of the sack of Rome*), or a work on genetics (he mentions the work of Gregor Mendel), etc. Including a paragraph in the article about Attila and the sack of Rome gives WP:Undue weight to an insignificant point in the book.

* "Attallah, our oldest daughter, was born in November 1958. She's named for Attilah the Hun (he sacked Rome)." — ] (] · ]) 17:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that something has been missed here, especially with the "palming the bullet" story. It seems to be implied above that Malcolm lied about the bullet, and Haley corrected it in the end. Note that the entire book was written by Haley. Malcolm told Haley the story about pulling the trigger three times. Later, once their friendship had been solidified, and Haley had, for the better part, gained Malcolm's trust (an extreme rarity), Malcolm admitted to palming the bullet. In describing the conversation, Haley almost makes it seem like Malcolm admitted this to him in a moment of light comic relief. Haley leaves the story as Malcolm first told it, in keeping with the motif of Malcolm's activities, and mindset at the time. Later in the book, when it is learned that Malcolm palmed the bullet, the reader almost has a sense of relief. This is largely the same sense the reader finds later in the book, upon learning that Malcolm was not a racist-that he felt disillusioned with the NOI's (then) teachings about whites after seeing white Muslims in Mecca, or that he regretted telling the young caucasian girl who asked him what she could do to help, "Nothing". This wasn't Malcolm lying in the book. It was Haley leaving the story as it was told to him, then correcting it, as it was later told to him, to make for better reading.Mk5384 (talk) 06:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Authorship

The Autobiography of Malcom X was written by Alex Haley, with assistance from Malcolm X. The first line of the article stated this exactly backwards. I've noted that this was only changed 2 months ago, after having stood correctly for 6 years. Mk5384 (talk) 05:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The book says "By Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley", and that's what the article should say. In the section "Writing the Autobiography", I made it clear that Haley wrote the book based on his interviews with Malcolm X. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 16:39, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The book says "by Alex Haley with Malcolm X". You changed this 2 months ago, after it stood correctly for 6 years.Mk5384 (talk) 19:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's the book. What does it say on the cover? "With the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Here it is at Google Books. "with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

After I provided two links that show Haley is credited only with "assistance", how can you cite the Autobiography as a source for your claim that Haley is the author? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm holding a copy in front of me. After 6 years, you (I'm an admin & I pretend my name's Malik Shabazz, so I can't be wrong) decide to change something that's correctly stood because it sounds better to you that way? What a goddamn joke this place is.Mk5384 (talk) 19:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

After six years (I'll take your word for it) I changed it because it was wrong. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

No. You are wrong. And you think that your position as an admin, as well as your personal deification of Malcolm X give you the right to change what you feel is an embarassing fact; i.e. the universally known truth that The Autobiography of Malcolm X was written by Alex Haley.Mk5384 (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about. The book says "with the assistance of Alex Haley", and that's what I changed the article to say. Out of curiosity, what edition of the Autobiography do you have? I have several, including the first edition, and they all say "with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:58, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The Autobiography of Malcolm X: As Told to Alex Haley. Not "by Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley". It doesn't get much more clear than that. And the worst part is, that you, yourself, admit in the article, that Alex Haley wrote the book. Yet, for the lede, because it looks better that way to Malik Shabazz, you want to pretend that Malcolm wrote it himself.Mk5384 (talk) 20:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Precisely. Malcolm X's book, written with the assistance of Alex Haley. Can you point me to a Misplaced Pages article about another autobiography in which the ghostwriter is given primary credit? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Semi-independent third opinion -- ghostwritten books should generally be listed under the primary author's name, not the ghostwriter's name. Your mileage may vary.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Independent fourth opinion: list the exact quotes from each edition in the body, citing the exact edition and page of the book. Not in the lede. In the lede write "by Malcolm X and Alex Haley" and let the detailed explanation be in the body. That's what we do when reliable sources disagree, we don't pick one, we list them both, with sufficient explanation that the user has a basic idea of the disagreement and can then research it further if he has a mind to. --GRuban (talk) 21:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

There are no sources that disagree. This is not the Book of Genesis. Saying that sources disagree about who wrote this book is like saying that sources disagree about who won the American Revolution.Mk5384 (talk) 22:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The part of this which I find the most disturbing, is the fact that User:Malik Shabazz himself, says in the article proper, "Haley wrote the book based on more than 50 conversations with Malcolm X, ect. I have never heard anyone, prior to this, assert that it was "by Malcolm X".Mk5384 (talk) 22:50, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm coming here from Misplaced Pages:3O where a third opinion was requested -- this can't be 3O'd because this isn't a dispute solely between two editors. You've had two other editors weigh in on this already. Third-opinion providers provide an opinion solely for the purposes of adding a third opinion to a two-person mix -- and said opinions have no special authority, do not count as tiebreakers, and don't count towards consensus. I'd suggest you move to the next stage of dispute resolution. Look for a relevant WikiProject and set up a RfC there, and/or go to the Mediation Cabal and/or Mediation Committee. WCityMike 22:57, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's a scholarly source: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2711638

Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley... Malcolm X told the story of his life to Alex Haley in a series of interviews that took place over a period of nearly two years. Malcolm read the text of the Autobiography, approving and correcting the chapters as Haley wrote them, although he did not live to see the last revisions made in the manuscript. Evidence both internal and external to the Autobiography suggests that Haley kept to the agreement he made with Malcom -- to include nothing Malcolm had not said and to say everything Malcolm wanted included.

That pretty much settles it, in my opinion. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That settles it in my opinion, as well. Somehow, I get the strange feeling though, that for you, "that settles it" that Malcolm X wrote it.Mk5384 (talk) 23:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

No, it settles it for me that Malcolm X should be credited as the primary author. Are you planning on heading over to The Ashes of Eden next to argue that Shatner didn't write it? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:11, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I know next to nothing about Star Trek, so no, I'm not planning on doing that. I did have a quick look at the article, and it says, "co-written" by William Shatner. I truly have no idea who wrote that book. I do know who wrote The Autobiography of Malcolm X.Mk5384 (talk) 23:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

As I had written in the article, based on what the book says (confirmed by this source), the book is by Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley. I also wrote that "Haley wrote The Autobiography of Malcolm X based on more than 50 in-depth interviews he conducted with Malcolm X" (note the Wikilink for "wrote"), just as the source says. Ghostwriters don't get credit for authorship, although they are often credited "with" or (in this case) "with the assistance of" or "as told to". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:17, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

PS: Thank you Sarek for finding an academic paper about the Autobiography. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:19, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it might help to point out that Hillary Clintons book It Takes a Village was also (partly) written by somebody else, to quote the publisher

The book will actually be written by Barbara Feinman, a journalism professor at Georgetown University in Washington. Ms. Feinman will conduct a series of interviews with Mrs. Clinton, who will help edit the resulting text.

Note that in this case the ghostwriter was not even acknowledged in the book, which caused some controversy. I am sure dozens of additional examples are available and they all have in common that the ghostwriter is not credited as the primary author, so I don't see why this one should be any different. If you believe injustice is done to ghostwriters and a wikipolicy should be set up to change this behaviour throughout wikipedia please say so. I don't mind starting a proposal at WP:MOS for you to change it, although I have my doubts whether it will succeed. Yoenit (talk) 23:53, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I saw nothing at WP:MOS about this. However, I may very well have missed something. The injustice done here is not to ghostwriters, nor is it to the respective legacies of Malcolm X or Alex Haley. It is to our readers. As long as the incorrect facts are permitted to stand in the article (in the lede, no less), those who come here to be educated will likely leave with the false impression that the book is by Malcolm X.Mk5384 (talk) 09:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Break

Support for Haley co-authorship. This source says co-authored --GabeMc (talk) 02:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support for Haley co-authorship. The NY Times source includes the Autobiography as one of his "writings". --GabeMc (talk) 02:57, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Malik, if Amazon is an URS then why is Google a RS? --GabeMc (talk) 02:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

1) Haley is credited simply as "with the assistance of Alex Haley". See the academic source cited above.

2) Who said Google was a RS? I was using Google Books to show your friend Mk5384 the front page of the book, where Alex Haley is credited "with ... assistance", not as co-author. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support for Haley co-authorship. This source refers to the autobiography as "Haley's first major book",

More Support On September 20th 1970 the New York Times called Haley the co-author of the Autobiography. "At a luncheon yesterday afternoon, Alex Haley, co-author of "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," related how he traced This own family lineage from his native..."

Support this source calls Haley the co-author...

I'm not sure what the point of your argument is. The book is an autobiography, and it is attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". Here is its entry at WorldCat. We're not going to change the article to attribute the book to "Malcolm X and Alex Haley" because that's not how authorship is attributed in reliable sources. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:29, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Does WorldCat list one or two authors? --GabeMc (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support The Encyclopædia Britannica calls the book Haley's "first major work"...

The article already says it was Haley's first book. You haven't answered my question: What are you trying to accomplish? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I am trying to establish that the vast majority of sources give Haley a co-authorship credit, Wiki does not, but should.--GabeMc (talk) 03:56, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support The UXL Encyclopedia of World Biography Here says "His first book, The Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965), which he cowrote with Malcolm X..."

What specifically would you like the article to say, and can you produce a reliable source that supports it? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I suggest "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book by human rights activist Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley." replace "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book by human rights activist Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley."

As far as a reliable source that refers to Haley as a co-author...here are some , , --GabeMc (talk) 04:28, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

And do you have a reliable source that describes the book as "by Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley"? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link from Georgetown.edu that states: "Millions continue to read the Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965), co-authored by Alex Haley."

Answers.com says , "The Autobiography of Malcolm X was published after his death in 1965 and became a best-seller; the book was co-written by Alex Haley,..."

The Crisis Sep-Oct 2002 calls is "co-authored with journalist Alex Haley..."

The Concise Focal Encyclopedia of Photography says, "...book such as The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley."

The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English states:"He co-authored The Autobiography of Malcolm X..."

Even after it is sourced, Malik Shabazz continues to revert to the version he prefers.Mk5384 (talk) 05:36, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Here are more than 1100 sources that say the book was written "with the assistance of Alex Haley":

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&q="autobiography+of+malcolm+x"+"assistance+of+alex+haley"

Any more questions. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 05:39, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes. How many of those 1100 google hits are reliable sources?Mk5384 (talk) 05:43, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Like The Concise Focal Encyclopedia of Photography, cited above? LOL — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 05:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Jet Jan 27, 1997 says, "He inked the bestseller Queen, co-authored The Autobiography of Malcolm X. Alex Haley: The Man Who Traced America's Roots states: "It was Haley who co-authored the controversial bestseller The Autobiography of Malcolm X" Black World/Negro Digest Jan 1976 says, "Alex Haley, co-author of The Autobiography..." Spike Lee: interviews By Spike Lee, Cynthia Fuchs refer to Haley as the co-author --GabeMc (talk) 05:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC) Is The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English a RS Malik?GabeMc (talk) 05:52, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know how to search Google Books too. So now The Concise Focal Encyclopedia of Photography and Spike Lee are more reliable than academic papers. Hmm. Maybe you should read WP:V and WP:RS again. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 05:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

No worries Malik. I'm sure the same meat puppets who reverted the Alex Haley article ad infinitum for you will show up here soon, too.Mk5384 (talk) 05:55, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The New York Times is a reliable source, and so is The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English , and both credit Haley as the co-author.GabeMc (talk) 06:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Another reliable source that credits Haley as the co-author GabeMc (talk) 06:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Malik, how many authors does WorldCat list?GabeMc (talk) 06:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Gabe, how does WorldCat attribute authorship of the book? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 06:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

As I purchased the copy that I own back when I was in high school, I browsed through a Borders book store this morning, thinking that there may have been some sort of recent change in the attribution of authorship. They had 4 copies of the book, each of which said: The Autobiography of Malcolm X, As told to Alex Haley (my emphasis).Mk5384 (talk) 16:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

• The New York Times
• The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English
• The oral history reader By Robert Perks, Alistair Thomson
• Civil Rights Movement: People and Perspective… by Michael Ezra, page 173: "written by Alex Haley"
• Voices of Freedom: An Oral History of the Civil Rights Movement by Henry Hampton, Steve Fayer page 668 lists Haley as the author
• DATABASE: Library of Congress Online Catalog considers him an author on the book and the entry seems to make it clear that the phrase "with assistance from" is an object in the original title, not an official publishers credit per se.
• Ballantine Publishing Group, the original 1964 publisher says "Copyright 1964 by Alex Haley and Malcolm X", it's on the first page of the book.

GabeMc (talk) 22:09, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

On crediting Haley as a co-author of the Autobiography of Malcolm X

Support, I say the book should be credited as a co-authored work, specifically "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book by human rights activist Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley.". GabeMc (talk) 05:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The truth is, he's the author, and that's what this article correctly said for 6 years before Malik Shabazz decided for the entire community that Malcolm X wrote the book.Mk5384 (talk) 06:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Oppose because there are abundant reliable sources that show the book attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley", and none that attribute the book to "Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 06:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

None? It seems quite a few have been listed for you above.Mk5384 (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you point out the one that says specifically that the book was written "by Malcolm X co-authored by Alex Haley", as GabeMc would like the article to say. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 06:18, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, it seems that he has already pointed out a few of them. You know my position. The truth is, Malcolm X didn't write one word of this book, which you very well know.Mk5384 (talk) 06:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

He hasn't pointed out any. He's pointed out articles that describe Haley as co-author, but that's not the same thing.

And it doesn't matter what I know or don't know. It matters what reliable sources say. (Read WP:V.) On Thursday I asked you to show me a Misplaced Pages article about an autobiography that credited the ghostwriter as the author instead of the putative author. I'm still waiting. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 06:25, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Why would an admin, of all people, request one Misplaced Pages article as a source for another. That's not permitted. And, per WP:RS, "mainstream news sources are generally considered to be reliable". "That's not the same thing" is an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument, and utter nonsense.Mk5384 (talk) 07:23, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Support, as a compromise, whilst noting that the truth of the matter is that Alex Haley is the sole author.Mk5384 (talk) 06:21, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems the original source for "assisted by" was the books original title, not it's original author attribution/copywrite. The book was originally copywrited to Alex Haley and Malcolm X . The title was later changed to "as told to", a more accurate phrase considering Malcolm did not physically write a single word, phrase, sentence, or paragraph let alone the entire book without a co-author.--GabeMc (talk) 22:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

You're confusing what it says on the cover with its attribution. Until the mid- to late-1970s, the cover didn't mention Alex Haley at all. Then it started mentioning him, because Roots made him famous. First the cover said, per the attribution, "with the assistance of Alex Haley". Later the cover was changed to "as told to Alex Haley". I'll bet you've never seen a copy whose cover—or any page in the book, for that matter—says "co-authored by Alex Haley".

You still haven't explained why the 1110 Google Book hits that attribute the book's authorship to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley" are wrong. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 22:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Look at The Library of Congress , you will see that the original copywrited title said "with the assistance of" the first page of the book says "Copywrite 1964 by Alex Haley and Malcolm X, then Copywrite 1965 by Alex Haley and Betty Shabazz" .

So does that mean Betty Shabazz co-wrote the book as well? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:01, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

To be clear Malik, are you arguing that Haley was a writer with a primary copywrite credit but not a co-author?GabeMc (talk) 23:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

What is a "primary copywrite credit"? His name may have come first because of alphabetical order. The royalties were split evenly between Haley and Betty Shabazz.

In any event, this is a sideshow because you still haven't shown a single source that attributes the book to "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley". Find a single WP:RS that makes reference to the Autobiography and uses that phrase as its attribution (as opposed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley"). — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:15, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

To be clear Malik, are you saying that while Malcolm X himself did not physically write a single word, phrase, sentence, or paragraph with his own hand he did author the entire book without a co-author? GabeMc (talk) 23:14, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying that reliable sources attribute the book to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

"Find a single WP:RS that makes reference to the Autobiography and uses that phrase as its attribution"-User:Malik Shabazz

• The New York Times
• The Oxford companion to twentieth-century literature in English
• The oral history reader By Robert Perks, Alistair Thomson
• Civil Rights Movement: People and Perspective… by Michael Ezra, page 173: "written by Alex Haley"
• Voices of Freedom: An Oral History of the Civil Rights Movement by Henry Hampton, Steve Fayer page 668 lists Haley as the author
• DATABASE: Library of Congress Online Catalog considers him an author on the book and the entry seems to make it clear that the phrase "with assistance from" is an object in the original title, not an official publishers credit per se.

GabeMc (talk) 23:21, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Where is the phrase that the book is by "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley"? Nowhere. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:23, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

By contrast, nearly all 1,110 of these books cite the autobiography's authorship as "Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley":

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&q="autobiography+of+malcolm+x"+"assistance+of+alex+haley"

— Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

• Jet Jan 27, 1997 says, "He inked the bestseller Queen, co-authored The Autobiography of Malcolm X.
• Alex Haley: The Man Who Traced America's Roots states: "It was Haley who co-authored the controversial bestseller The Autobiography of Malcolm X" Black
• World/Negro Digest Jan 1976 says, "Alex Haley, co-author of The Autobiography..."GabeMc (talk) 23:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Still don't see the magic phrase you want to put in the article. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

"By contrast, nearly all 1,110 of these books cite the autobiography's authorship as "Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley."

Those hits are coming up because that is the original title of the book, as evidenced at The library of Congress.GabeMc (talk) 23:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

This is from The Library of Congress: "Main Title: The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." That is the official original title of the book. So yeah, if I Google the title of a book I will get 1,200 hits. GabeMc (talk) 00:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"Still don't see the magic phrase you want to put in the article."

Look here GabeMc (talk) 00:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

On page 444 of The Heath Anthology of American Literature it says this: "...the Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965), co- authored by Alex Haley".GabeMc (talk) 00:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"his autobiography, co-authored by Alex Haley." GabeMc (talk) 00:22, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"The Autobiography of Malcolm X. The book, which was co-authored by Alex Haley"--GabeMc (talk) 00:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

From the Cleveland Institute of Art: "along with books such as The Autobiography of Malcolm X , co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Look on the first page"...Malcolm X wrote in his 1964 autobiography, co-authored by Alex Haley."GabeMc (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

You still haven't produced a single source that rivals this, which cites the book as having been written by "Malcolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley". Or this. Or this. Nice try, though. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 00:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

All three of your examples were texts citing the title of the book, none of them are using that phrase in a sentence as mine are. That phrase is verbatim from the title, and is not someone referring to the book that way.

Hello? They are bibliographic citations, showing author and title. Authorship is attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley".

Look, I admire your persistence, but you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Look at the discussion at WP:RSN. This is a closed issue. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 01:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"the book, which was co-authored by Alex Haley" "...the autobiography co-authored by Alex Haley" "...The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" "The Autobiography of Malcolm X (co-authored by Alex HaleyGabeMc (talk) 01:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"from The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 01:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 01:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC) "The Autobiography of Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 01:14, 27 June 2010 (UTC) --GabeMc (talk) 01:39, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Here are ten MORE sources that refer to Haley as the co-author of The Autobiography of Malcolm X--GabeMc (talk) 03:39, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I can't even fathom the level of arrogance required for Malik Shabazz to declare, "This is a closed issue".Mk5384 (talk) 08:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

It's my understanding that there is no such thing as a "closed issue", Wiki editors ALWAYS have the ability to open issues as they come, and no one admin can decide the final word on an article. --GabeMc (talk) 00:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Your understanding is correct. He's just trying to push us around.Mk5384 (talk) 10:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Scholarly Sources

Here are five scholarly sources who use the phrase "co-authored by Alex Haley":

Here are five scholarly sources who refer to Haley as a co-author of The Autobiography of Malcolm X.

GabeMc (talk) 01:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I also find it extremely troubling that Malik summarily ignores myriad specific examples of WP:RS, in favor of the 1100 google hits he got by typing in a series of words. It is deliberately duplicitous.Mk5384 (talk) 08:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

What you don't seem to understand is (a) Gabe has been doing nothing more than "typing a series of words" into Google and (b) this is a closed issue. If you don't believe me, ask again at WP:RSN. There is no controversy or question concerning how authorship is attributed in scholarly literature, except in your mind and that of your buddy Gabe. Now drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 17:41, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I was just at WP:RSN, and don't see anything that says it's a "closed issue". Please stop attempting to bully other users into accepting your word as law. The big, bad admin is the only one wielding a stick here.Mk5384 (talk) 19:06, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Malik, I am curious, why are your three sources better then my 20? And one more time I will explain why I think you seem so confused, "with the assistance of Alex Haley" is a phrase FROM THE TITLE OF THE BOOK so your sources are good if you want to confirm the title, nothing more. This is beginning to feel like a WP:OWNERSHIP issue. "All Misplaced Pages content is edited collaboratively. Misplaced Pages contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article." --GabeMc (talk) 00:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not three sources, it's 1,110. And no, it's not a quote from the title of the book (and there's no need to shout). It's the way the authorship is attributed in bibliographies and footnotes. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 00:40, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious why is "this is a closed issue" as you stated, and how is the mocking statement "drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass" befitting an admin?--GabeMc (talk) 01:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

It's a closed issue because of the discussion at WP:RSN. One editor said "That pretty much settles it, in my opinion." Another wrote "I gotta agree with him". They were both referring to bibliographic citation of the authorship as "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 01:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

“

No, this is a case where every bibliographic citation of the book attributes authorship to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley" but you and your buddy are making a "controversy" where none exists.— Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:50, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

”

Here are four citations that do not attribute authorship to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley".

“

"And no, it's not a quote from the title of the book"--Mailk Shabazz 00:40, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

”

"The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." is not the only title of the book used since 1964, there are more than one version with more than one title, it is an accepted official title. See the TEN WP:RS below that include the phrase "with the assistance of Alex Haley" as PART OF THE TITLE.

• The Library of Congress says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley."
• The British Library Integrated Catalog says the title is: "The Autobiography of Malcolm X : with the assistance of Alex Haley."
• The National Library of Australia says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley."
• The National Library of Scotland says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; with an introduction by Paul Gilroy." It also list Haley as an author.
• The Harvard Libraries says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." Harvard also says Alex Haley is the author.
• Stanford University list the book as: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; foreword by Attallah Shabazz ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis." Stanford also gives Haley an author credit.
• Yale University says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; foreword by Attallah Shabazz ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis."
• MIT has the title as: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; foreword by Attallah Shabazz ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis." MIT also goves Haley an author credit.
• Oxford University autobiography of malcolm x%22&mode=Basic&scp.scps=scope%3A(%22OX%22) says the title is: "The Autobiography of Macolm X, with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." Oxford also lists Haley as an author.
• The University of Chicago says the title is: "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley ; afterword by Ossie Davis." The University of Chicago also lists Haley as an author. --GabeMc (talk) 03:13, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

UCLA, Cornell, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Oxford University, and The University of Chicago all give Alex Haley an author credit on the Autobiography.

• autobiography of malcolm x%22&mode=Basic&scp.scps=scope%3A(%22OX%22

GabeMc (talk) 03:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

“

It's a closed issue because of the discussion at WP:RSN. One editor said "That pretty much settles it, in my opinion." Another wrote "I gotta agree with him". They were both referring to bibliographic citation of the authorship as "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

”

Yes, but you are leaving out EVERYTHING I have written, and EVERYTHING Mk5384 has said, not to mention one editor said:

“

It's generally accepted that Haley wrote the book. What the original edition said is marketing. We need academic sources. Paul B (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

”

and

“

The title page is irrelevant. I think the debate about relibility does legitimately belong on this page. This is a question of what academic sources say about authorhip. There are many comparable examples, from books said to have been written by Aristotle through to "autobiographies" of air-headed celebrities obviously written by ghost authors. As long as we have clear RS consensus about who the author is we can go with that. Paul B (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

”

Also, your editor who said :"I gotta agree with him"--Yoenit (talk) 23:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC), also said:

“

That being said I do have an opinion on the matter, though I never heard about the book before. Apparently the bookjacket says Malcom X wrote the book, which seems no more than logical it being his autobiography and everything. If he did not write that the book, than a Reliable source stating that very fact should be presented. In that case the discrepancy should be mentioned in the article. Yoenit (talk) 20:53, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

”

So it seems like two editors agree with you, while two agree with me, I have shown 27 WP:RS that agree with me, you have shown three pictures of a bibliography that state the title of the book.

How is this "a closed issue"? Explain how this is settled BY CONSENSUS. --GabeMc (talk) 03:46, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Malik, explain again how "with the assistance of Alex Haley" is NOT A PHRASE from the title of the Autobiography". --GabeMc (talk) 03:50, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't respond to people who feel the need to shout. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see it as shouting, I see it as capitalized words in boldface, but fine, I agree to not shout at you. --GabeMc (talk) 04:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

So, do you disagree with UCLA, Cornell, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Oxford University, and The University of Chicago, or are these sources not as good as your sources? --GabeMc (talk) 04:03, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

"With the assistance of Alex Haley" is no more part of the title than the phrase "introduction by M.S. Handler".

I asked you earlier, and my challenge still stands: Show me bibliographic references to the Autobiography that attribute the authorship to "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley" (which is the phrase you want to use in the article). I've shown you three specific examples, and a link to more than a thousand more.

In case you don't understand, I'm talking about the way the authorship of the Autobiography is cited in scholarly papers and in books. (Note: You can tell the difference between the title and the author by italics and commas.) Not what newspapers say, not sentences that Haley co-wrote the book, and not what libraries' card catalogs say.

I've shown you my sources. It's time for you to put up or shut up. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Malik, but you don't get to say, "not what newspapers say." Make that argument at WP:RS-not here.Mk5384 (talk) 10:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I cited four scholarly sources that refer to him as the co-author. --GabeMc (talk) 04:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Request for Comments: Authorship

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How should the authorship of The Autobiography of Malcolm X be described? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:36, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

• Every bibliographic citation I have seen cites the authorship of the Autobiography as "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". Two other editors disagree. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:39, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Here are 50 examples of bibliographic citations that do not use the phrase "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley" GabeMc (talk) 07:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

UCLA, Cornell, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Oxford University, and The University of Chicago all give Alex Haley an author credit on the Autobiography. GabeMc (talk) 07:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

This has just gotten ridiculous. Despite the overwhelming abundance of WP:RS, Malik continues to shoot each one down, claiming for whatever reason that each one doesn't count. In all honesty, Malik is the one who needs to drop the stick, and back slowly away from the horse carcass. His arrogance on the issue almost defies belief.Mk5384 (talk) 10:10, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

And here are 1,110 examples where the authorship is attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley":

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&q="autobiography+of+malcolm+x"+"assistance+of+alex+haley"

Three bibliographic examples, where the book's authorship is so attributed in footnotes: — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 16:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Gabe has provided specific sources, whilst you continue to talk about how many google hits you got. It is impossible to know which of your purported sources meet WP:RS unless you give specific examples. And what makes your 3 sources better than Gabe's 50 +? Seems to me, his sources include the libraries of several Ivy League schools. You haven't a leg on which to stand. Now drop the stick, and back slowly away from the horse carcass.Mk5384 (talk) 02:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to be attracting much attention. I'm not sure how long the RfC is scheduled to run, and the article still has a few more days of full protection. The article correctly stated for 6 years, that Alex Haley wrote the book. Malik Shabazz has provided WP:RS that attribute authorship to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". GabeMc has provided WP:RS that attribute the book to "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley", as well as WP:RS that attribute authorship to Alex Haley. Of course, my opinion, is since Alex Haley is the author, it is misleading to state anything else. I realise that that's probably not going to happen. It seems the only reasonable thing to do at this point is to state in the article that sources differ as to the book's authorship, whilst giving specific examples.Mk5384 (talk) 08:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I would propose opening the article with something along the lines of, "The Autobiography of Malcolm X is a 1965 book about the life of human rights activist Malcolm X." It could then explain the differing opinions of authorship, and give examples.Mk5384 (talk) 20:23, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

That would seem to be a sensible thing to do, however, the RFC tag lasts 30 days, I suggest we let it run it's course in order to gain the best consensus we can. --GabeMc (talk) 21:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

1. The RfC can stay open as long as we'd like, up to 30 days.
2. With respect to the opening paragraph, I don't have a problem (a) taking the authorship out of the first sentence and (b) adding this second sentence: "Haley wrote the book based on more than 50 in-depth interviews he conducted with Malcolm X between 1963 and the activist's February 1965 assassination." (from the section "Writing the Autobiography"). I'd like to leave the infobox as is ("Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley"). We can word-smith the sentences if we reach general agreement on the structure of the lede. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 21:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled about leaving the info box that way, but in the interest of compromise, I'm OK with that idea.Mk5384 (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

“

In any event, this is a sideshow because you still haven't shown a single source that attributes the book to "Malcolm X, co-authored by Alex Haley". Find a single WP:RS that makes reference to the Autobiography and uses that phrase as its attribution (as opposed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley"). — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:15, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

”

Here are 100 WP:RS that refer to the autobiography as either "co-authored by Alex Haley", "by Alex Haley and Malcolm X", or "by Alex Haley" without using the phrase "with the assistance of".

GabeMc (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

“

No, this is a case where every bibliographic citation of the book attributes authorship to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley" but you and your buddy are making a "controversy" where none exists.— Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:50, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

”

“

Hello? They are bibliographic citations, showing author and title. Authorship is attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley". Look, I admire your persistence, but you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Look at the discussion at WP:RSN. This is a closed issue. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

”

Here are 25 bibliographic citations, all WP:RSs that attribute authorship soley to "by Alex Haley". GabeMc (talk) 01:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Malik, based on all of that, any chance you'd be willing to reconsider your position on the info box?Mk5384 (talk) 05:35, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as the infobox is concerned, I think it should follow the same attribution as the book, which is "with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 17:10, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough.Mk5384 (talk) 18:47, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

If the infobox should follow the same attribution as the book, then wouldn't "The autobiography of Malcolm X / with the assistance of Alex Haley ; introduction by M.S. Handler ; epilogue by Alex Haley." be the most accurate? --GabeMc (talk) 20:15, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

If it were an infobox about the introduction or the epilogue, sure. But since it's an infobox about the Autobiography, it should follow the authorship of the book itself. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

At this point, since the Rfc tag went up, it seems that you Malik are the only editor who is insisting on the "assistance of" phrase. The only two other editors who have devoted any time to this discussion both argued for authorship. --GabeMc (talk) 23:15, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

If case you missed it, above are 100 WP:RS that use the phrases: "co-authored by Alex Haley", "by Alex Haley and Malcolm X", or "by Alex Haley" without using the phrase "with the assistance of". --GabeMc (talk) 23:18, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

In case you missed it, here are 1,110 examples where the authorship is attributed to "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley":

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&q="autobiography+of+malcolm+x"+"assistance+of+alex+haley"

And most importantly, here is how it's attributed in the book itself: "with the assistance of Alex Haley". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:30, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I am totally against the info box using Malik's proposed version, especially in light of the myriad sources that Gabe has presented. Based on those sources, I asked Malik to reconsider. I had already gone on record as saying whilst I didn't approve of that version, I would go along with it as a matter of compromise. When I said, "fair enough", this was only as I feel compelled to honour my word, and in no way because I agree with it.Mk5384 (talk) 00:12, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

And again, I am quite troubled by the fact that Gabe has given over 100 specific examples, whilst Malik continues to refer to 1,100 generic Google hits.Mk5384 (talk) 00:14, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

“

Are you for real? Books that are reliable sources are no less reliable because they are accessed through Google Books. And yes, The New York Times is considered a reliable source. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

”

On September 20th 1970 the New York Times called Haley the co-author of the Autobiography. "At a luncheon yesterday afternoon, Alex Haley, co-author of "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," related how he traced This own family lineage from his native..." GabeMc (talk) 23:04, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Weighing in as an independent, non-involved party but an experienced book editor and writer, with both co-author experience and primary author experience. The above discussions are quite amazing to read; the lengths people will go to to defend a position never fails to surprise. Bottom line, it comes down to the quality of the evidence IMHO. Malik's Google hits do not outweigh Gabe's individual specific citations. Panera3769 (talk) 14:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The secondary sources are clear. Malcolm X and Alex Haley collaborated on the book, and that's how Misplaced Pages, a tertiary source, should describe it. Viriditas (talk) 13:45, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• I suggest the phrases "Alex Haley wrote the book" and "the assistance of Alex Haley" minimize his role, and imply a position lower than that of author, or co-author, and credit him as nothing more than a ghostwriter, which IMHO is not in keeping with the vast majority of the most reliable sources available to an average researcher.

• I propose the Wiki link to Ghostwriter be removed from the lede, and the phrase "the assistance of Alex Haley" be removed from the infobox author attribution leaving, "Malcolm X with Alex Haley".

--GabeMc (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Haley was a ghost-writer. I propose the infobox remain the way it is, as it matches the exact attribution in the book. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 21:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I have 125 WP:RSs that say he was an author. Since the RfC tag went up on June 28th you have failed to gain any support whatsoever. The only one arguing against authorship since June 28th is you.

• Please explain to us why editor consensus and 125 WP:RSs are not enough to attribute co-authorship to Haley. --GabeMc (talk) 23:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Here are 100 WP:RS that refer to the autobiography as either "co-authored by Alex Haley", "by Alex Haley and Malcolm X", or "by Alex Haley" without using the phrase "with the assistance of".

Here are 50 bibliographic citations that do not use the phrase "Malcolm X with the assistance of Alex Haley"

Here are 25 bibliographic citations, all WP:RSs that attribute authorship soley to "by Alex Haley".

GabeMc (talk) 03:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Here are 7 of the finest Universities on EARTH: UCLA, Cornell, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Oxford University, and The University of Chicago, who all give Alex Haley an author credit on the Autobiography.

--GabeMc (talk) 00:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Malik, that's over 150 sources that say Haley was an author on the Autobiography, where are your sources for ghostwriter? --GabeMc (talk) 01:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

This is starting to cross over into tendentious editing on your part Malik:

• You delete the cited additions of others with the complaint that they did not discuss their edits first.

There is no rule on Misplaced Pages that someone has to get permission from you before they put cited information in an article. Such a rule would clearly contradict Misplaced Pages:Be bold. There is guidance from ArbCom that removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption. Instead of removing cited work, you should be questioning uncited information.

• You ignore or refuse to answer good faith questions from other editors.

No editor should ever be expected to do "homework" for another editor, but simple, clarifying questions from others should not be ignored. (e. g. "You say the quote you want to incorporate can be found in this 300 page pdf, but I've looked and I can't find it. Exactly what page is it on?") Failure to cooperate with such simple requests may be interpreted as evidence of a bad faith effort to exasperate or waste the time of other editors.

I have removed the ghostwriter wikilink from the lede and the phrase "with the assistance of" from the info box per talk pge RfC consensus and a multitude of reliable sources. -- GabeMc (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

1. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar#Removal of sourced edits made in a neutral narrative is disruptive

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