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Libertarianism received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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Archives:

• Talk:Libertarian, discussion for a page which has been merged with this article.
• Talk:Libertarianism/Alfrem, discussion prior to the ArbCom decision banning User:Alfrem from this article.
• Talk:Libertarianism/Page move, a July 2005 vote on a proposal to make libertarianism a disambiguation page and move this to Libertarianism (capitalist).
• Talk:Libertarianism/Archive
• Talk:Libertarianism/Archive2
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• Talk:Libertarianism/Archive4
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This page is 72 kilobytes long

The article is in clear violation of section 5 of featured artice criteria, which state that the article "should be of appropriate length, staying tightly focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail; it should use summary style to cover sub-topics that are treated in greater detail in any "daughter" articles." The ideal recommended length is around 32 kb which mean the article should be halved and the rest should be transfered to "daughter" article. FWBOarticle

Introduction

I have shorten the introduction of Libetarianism to the bearest minimum while transfering everything else to "overview" section. I'm not suggesting that this should be final. However, I believe we can try to slim down "overview" first so we can figure out the way to make this article more readable (shorter). FWBOarticle

I agree that the introduction (much of which I had written or re-written) was too long and appropriately segregated into an "Overview," but I'm concerned that we are on the verge of another edit war regarding the basic definition when I see the "except in defense of liberty" phrase being dropped, which I see as a dispute between the majority of those who self-identify as libertarians and the anarchist version who don't agree with any exceptions to governmental non-intervention. I think the original formulation about opposing the initiation of force or fraud against persons or their property provided the most comprehensive distinction between libertarianism and all other political philosophies. It was very good and should not have been removed. Mhodak 14:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the second sentence. I don't think anyone would disagree with defnition of libetarianism as the champion of liberty. If the role of state is main point of contention, it should be dealt in separate section. Still, this has nothing to do with the article but I'm quite suprised with strong anarchist flavour of American libetarianism. Me and quite few friends (u.k.) are sort of libetarian by default, liberal on economic and social issue. Call us "the Economist" libetarian. But none of us is hostile to the state. Most classical liberals like Adam Smith or David Hume weren't either. Is this something to do with the fact that Ayn Rand is so popular in US? She is pretty much a no one here in Europe. FWBOarticle

Actually, most American libertarians are hostile to the state with the improbable exception of Randian libertarians, who view the state's defense of individual rights to be a positive good (as opposed to the minarchist attitude of necessary evil). I still think the "non-initiation of force..." terminology is a clearer distinction that unites all libertarians and should be included in the intro. Lot's of people believe in "liberty"--this is not a sufficient distinction. We've been through this debate on this side before. Mhodak 22:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm a minarchist but I agree with the new limited intro. While my libertarianism is not anarchistic, I recognize that there are libertarians who are true anarchists, and do believe that government intervention is never justified, even in the defense of individual liberty. In fact, that's the difference between anarchist libertarians and minarchist libertarians, but we're all libertarians, and the intro should not be defined in terms of one or the other. --Serge 20:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i think anarchist libetarian argument would be that police/army/school should be private or at least community based militia or churchschool. All probably agree about "non-initiation" but theoretically at least, it doesn't require state. "Non-initiation of force" is also implicit in "liberty for all" so the statement is also bit redundant. The reason I prefer bearest minimum intro is that I want to see the whole table of content in top screen. Comparing this with this make it obvious that, at current size of 72kb, this article is heading into the later case. Though it is aethetic opinion, one thing I like about libetarian thinking is that it is simple, clear and efficient while the current state of progressive liberalism is not, which is probably a part of the reason why the current state of liberalism page is impressively comprehensive at the same time being un"wiki"pedian. I want to aim at this, thinking in term of totality of portal rather than particularity of the page. FWBOarticle

By the way, what the difference between anarchist libetarianism and anarchism? It looks like anarchists are appropriating label of libetarianism to avoid negative implication of terrorist. IMO, the whole cause of past edit war (whatever it was) is do with the lack of disambiguation between classical liberalism and anarchism. If one attribute the origin of "denial of state" idea to anarchism, it will make it so easy. Or should I add distniction that the differece between libatarianism and classical liberalism is the hostility to state itself rather than state policy.FWBOarticle

Terminology/History

Terminology section has been changed to History section with majority of terminology content being transfered to "History of Libetarianism". Though the placement of this section is appropriate from chronogical perspective, details about anarchism/libetarianism disambiguation is a minor detail. I also believe that we need more coherent narrative of how the original 18th century idea evolved through 19th and early 20th century. This can be achieved by poaching lots of content from liberalism. :)The current article make it looks like 18th century ideas suddenly jumped to 20 century. The current section doesn't provide "overview" of the history of (classical) liberalism and libetarianism. At least, Popper, Hayek and Keynes should be mentioned. Despite Kynesianism, I actually believe Keynes himself was an exemplary example of libetarians. His lifestyle at least was. :D FWBOarticle

Proposal for Merger

I believe that "Libertarianism in the political spectrum" can be absorbed into "Libertarian politics and philosophy". My rule of thumb is that anything which does't really deserve seprate sister page such as "political spectrum" should be merged into something which does. On the other hand, I think we need a separate section dealing with more through comparative study of classical liberalism and libetarianism. Because this will involve major overhaul of this article, I will wait and see if people are happy with my "History" section edit.FWBOarticle

Principles

I have changed the title of a section, "political spectrum" to "principles. I think, "overview"->"history"->"princiles" is a better sequence of narrative. Plus, "political spectrum" can be considered as a topic within the principle, because it is merely a comparative definition of ideological philosopies. Also, "Political Spectrum" does not deserve sister wiki page while "Principles of Libetarianism" does. I believe, every section should be part of portal given that this page is the platform page of libertarianims. I know this section somewhat duplicate "Libertarian politics and philosophy". But as I said above, I intend to eventually merge two so please bear with me. Plus, "politics and philosophy", in my opinion is better be separated. So philosophy section should deal with principles (where consensus view exist) while politics section should deal with application/implimentation of such principles (where no consensus exist among libetarians). FWBOarticle

Clearer distinction of liberty, rights, and freedom in intro

I have attempted to better define "liberty" in more traditional terms as a right to freedom within an expansive, but clearly defined boundary. The prior definition was stylistically challenged ("advocates individuals should have," "in regard to use of") and confused the term "liberty" for "rights", and "liberties" (presumably as the plural of liberty) for rights or freedoms, among other things. Hopefully this definition will be viewed as more precise without sacrificing the intent or brevity, or the full range of "libertarian" sympathies.--DocGov 06:42, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

What you are saying were all implcit in previous edit. One reason the intro was trimmed so short was to avoid inevitable disambiguation attempt which cause the section to bloat, which in turn restart out edit/revert war. Liberty/freedom/right means different thing to different people especially among conservative, modern liberal, classical liberal and anarchist. By reverting this, I don't intend to imply that your edit is incorrect. I'm merely suggesting that we could avoid all sort of troubles which is better discussed in separte section(s). FWBOarticle

Opps, it appear that the initial edit was done by someone else and, since then, people are keep disambiguating the section. Sorry. FWBOarticle

In my view, two innocent looking terms "right" and "freedom" in fact NPOV minefield in this page so best being avoided in the intro. FWBOarticle

What's essential in a definition of libertarianism is not that it advocates liberty, but the extent of that liberty. Lots of philosophies advocate some liberty. Libertarians thinks liberty should be unlimited up to the point that action infringes on the liberty of someone else. So, FWBOarticle, I think you were wrong to revert back to the previous insufficient definition. RJII 06:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

ahhh, your argument exactly demonstrate why the original edit was superior. "unlimited" is a position adovocated by anarchist wing of libetarianism so it is a NPOV violation. It grossly overlook the fact that classical liberal such as Adam Smith advocated role of state not only in the general case of taxation but also of state funded "compulsary" educations, state enforced trade patent and so on. So some libetarian might wish to add, "except in the defence of liberty" (classical liberal) or "except in case where good utilitarian argument can be made" ("pragmatic" libertarian). Adding these disambiguation slant the presentation to classical/pragmatic libertarianism while ommiting it slant the presentation to anarchist libetarianism. So we are in Catch 22. On the other hand, "state of liberty" or "state of natural liberty" (as used by classical liberals) can mean anything. FWBOarticle

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