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This page is 72 kilobytes long

The article is in clear violation of section 5 of featured artice criteria, which state that the article "should be of appropriate length, staying tightly focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail; it should use summary style to cover sub-topics that are treated in greater detail in any "daughter" articles." The ideal recommended length is around 32 kb which mean the article should be halved and the rest should be transfered to "daughter" article. FWBOarticle

Introduction

I have shorten the introduction of Libetarianism to the bearest minimum while transfering everything else to "overview" section. I'm not suggesting that this should be final. However, I believe we can try to slim down "overview" first so we can figure out the way to make this article more readable (shorter). FWBOarticle

I agree that the introduction (much of which I had written or re-written) was too long and appropriately segregated into an "Overview," but I'm concerned that we are on the verge of another edit war regarding the basic definition when I see the "except in defense of liberty" phrase being dropped, which I see as a dispute between the majority of those who self-identify as libertarians and the anarchist version who don't agree with any exceptions to governmental non-intervention. I think the original formulation about opposing the initiation of force or fraud against persons or their property provided the most comprehensive distinction between libertarianism and all other political philosophies. It was very good and should not have been removed. Mhodak 14:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the second sentence. I don't think anyone would disagree with defnition of libetarianism as the champion of liberty. If the role of state is main point of contention, it should be dealt in separate section. Still, this has nothing to do with the article but I'm quite suprised with strong anarchist flavour of American libetarianism. Me and quite few friends (u.k.) are sort of libetarian by default, liberal on economic and social issue. Call us "the Economist" libetarian. But none of us is hostile to the state. Most classical liberals like Adam Smith or David Hume weren't either. Is this something to do with the fact that Ayn Rand is so popular in US? She is pretty much a no one here in Europe. FWBOarticle

Actually, most American libertarians are hostile to the state with the improbable exception of Randian libertarians, who view the state's defense of individual rights to be a positive good (as opposed to the minarchist attitude of necessary evil). I still think the "non-initiation of force..." terminology is a clearer distinction that unites all libertarians and should be included in the intro. Lot's of people believe in "liberty"--this is not a sufficient distinction. We've been through this debate on this side before. Mhodak 22:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm a minarchist but I agree with the new limited intro. While my libertarianism is not anarchistic, I recognize that there are libertarians who are true anarchists, and do believe that government intervention is never justified, even in the defense of individual liberty. In fact, that's the difference between anarchist libertarians and minarchist libertarians, but we're all libertarians, and the intro should not be defined in terms of one or the other. --Serge 20:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i think anarchist libetarian argument would be that police/army/school should be private or at least community based militia or churchschool. All probably agree about "non-initiation" but theoretically at least, it doesn't require state. "Non-initiation of force" is also implicit in "liberty for all" so the statement is also bit redundant. The reason I prefer bearest minimum intro is that I want to see the whole table of content in top screen. Comparing this with this make it obvious that, at current size of 72kb, this article is heading into the later case. Though it is aethetic opinion, one thing I like about libetarian thinking is that it is simple, clear and efficient while the current state of progressive liberalism is not, which is probably a part of the reason why the current state of liberalism page is impressively comprehensive at the same time being un"wiki"pedian. I want to aim at this, thinking in term of totality of portal rather than particularity of the page. FWBOarticle

By the way, what the difference between anarchist libetarianism and anarchism? It looks like anarchists are appropriating label of libetarianism to avoid negative implication of terrorist. IMO, the whole cause of past edit war (whatever it was) is do with the lack of disambiguation between classical liberalism and anarchism. If one attribute the origin of "denial of state" idea to anarchism, it will make it so easy. Or should I add distniction that the differece between libatarianism and classical liberalism is the hostility to state itself rather than state policy.FWBOarticle

Terminology/History

Terminology section has been changed to History section with majority of terminology content being transfered to "History of Libetarianism". Though the placement of this section is appropriate from chronogical perspective, details about anarchism/libetarianism disambiguation is a minor detail. I also believe that we need more coherent narrative of how the original 18th century idea evolved through 19th and early 20th century. This can be achieved by poaching lots of content from liberalism. :)The current article make it looks like 18th century ideas suddenly jumped to 20 century. The current section doesn't provide "overview" of the history of (classical) liberalism and libetarianism. At least, Popper, Hayek and Keynes should be mentioned. Despite Kynesianism, I actually believe Keynes himself was an exemplary example of libetarians. His lifestyle at least was. :D FWBOarticle

Proposal for Merger

I believe that "Libertarianism in the political spectrum" can be absorbed into "Libertarian politics and philosophy". My rule of thumb is that anything which does't really deserve seprate sister page such as "political spectrum" should be merged into something which does. On the other hand, I think we need a separate section dealing with more through comparative study of classical liberalism and libetarianism. Because this will involve major overhaul of this article, I will wait and see if people are happy with my "History" section edit.FWBOarticle

Principles

I have changed the title of a section, "political spectrum" to "principles. I think, "overview"->"history"->"princiles" is a better sequence of narrative. Plus, "political spectrum" can be considered as a topic within the principle, because it is merely a comparative definition of ideological philosopies. Also, "Political Spectrum" does not deserve sister wiki page while "Principles of Libetarianism" does. I believe, every section should be part of portal given that this page is the platform page of libertarianims. I know this section somewhat duplicate "Libertarian politics and philosophy". But as I said above, I intend to eventually merge two so please bear with me. Plus, "politics and philosophy", in my opinion is better be separated. So philosophy section should deal with principles (where consensus view exist) while politics section should deal with application/implimentation of such principles (where no consensus exist among libetarians). FWBOarticle

Clearer distinction of liberty, rights, and freedom in intro

I have attempted to better define "liberty" in more traditional terms as a right to freedom within an expansive, but clearly defined boundary. The prior definition was stylistically challenged ("advocates individuals should have," "in regard to use of") and confused the term "liberty" for "rights", and "liberties" (presumably as the plural of liberty) for rights or freedoms, among other things. Hopefully this definition will be viewed as more precise without sacrificing the intent or brevity, or the full range of "libertarian" sympathies.--DocGov 06:42, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

What you are saying were all implcit in previous edit. One reason the intro was trimmed so short was to avoid inevitable disambiguation attempt which cause the section to bloat, which in turn restart out edit/revert war. Liberty/freedom/right means different thing to different people especially among conservative, modern liberal, classical liberal and anarchist. By reverting this, I don't intend to imply that your edit is incorrect. I'm merely suggesting that we could avoid all sort of troubles which is better discussed in separte section(s). FWBOarticle

Opps, it appear that the initial edit was done by someone else and, since then, people are keep disambiguating the section. Sorry. FWBOarticle

In my view, two innocent looking terms "right" and "freedom" in fact NPOV minefield in this page so best being avoided in the intro. FWBOarticle

What's essential in a definition of libertarianism is not that it advocates liberty, but the extent of that liberty. Lots of philosophies advocate some liberty. Libertarians thinks liberty should be unlimited up to the point that action infringes on the liberty of someone else. So, FWBOarticle, I think you were wrong to revert back to the previous insufficient definition. RJII 06:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

ahhh, your argument exactly demonstrate why the original edit was superior. "unlimited" is a position adovocated by anarchist wing of libetarianism so it is a NPOV violation. It grossly overlook the fact that classical liberal such as Adam Smith advocated role of state not only in the general case of taxation but also of state funded "compulsary" educations, state enforced trade patent and so on. So some libetarian might wish to add, "except in the defence of liberty" (classical liberal) or "except in case where good utilitarian argument can be made" ("pragmatic" libertarian). Adding these disambiguation slant the presentation to classical/pragmatic libertarianism while ommiting it slant the presentation to anarchist libetarianism. So we are in Catch 22. On the other hand, "state of liberty" or "state of natural liberty" (as used by classical liberals) can mean anything. FWBOarticle

I don't intend to participate in the debate, but I would like to point out that "a political philosophy that advocates individuals' liberties in all aspects including civil, political and economic matters" could mean just about anything, because nearly all political philosophies advocate at least some individual liberties in all aspects of life. Please don't make the definition of libertarianism so vague as to be meaningless. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 08:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Nikodemos, I think you violated three revert rule. You can probably avoid admin sanction if you revert the article back by yourself. Quick! Do it now. (^^) FWBOarticle

Ambiguity is the whole point. Each different type of libertarianism can be explained by defining what their interpretation of "liberty" is. This can be done in the section of "history of libertarianism", "principles of libertarianism" and "libertarian policies/pllitics". This is more consistent to NPOV policy of this site. Some European who call themselves libetarian especially in Nordic countries advocate guranteed health care, minimum living standard and state funded education. In u.s. this is probably be regarded as socialism. But in Europe, anarchist libertarians are so rare that most would be categorised as just anarchist and will not be included in the family of libertalianism. The second edit is slanted toward anarchist libertarianism while adding "except in defence of liberty" or "except in case of good utilitarian justification" would slant the intro to other side of the debate. My Catch22 objection to 2nd edit still stand. If you can find alternative to the original edit which doesn't have NPOV time bomb, let me know. FWBOarticle

Libertarianism is an ideal, like most definitions in political philosophy, or economics. Sure, a doctrine that says a person should be allowed to do whatever he wishes as long as he doesn't forcefully prevent someone else from doing the same is, is anarchism. Was Marquis de La Fayette who drafted the 1789 French Declaration of the Rights of Man which asserted as one of its principles: "Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights" an anarchist? Was Thomas Jefferson who said ""rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others" an anarchist? Some libertarians are truly anarchists, while others are anarchists only in a philosophical sense --anarchism as an ideal that they think probably could not be realized in practice --so they advocate taxation and minimal government to approximate the libertarian ideal. But, as I said, it's essential to a definition of libertarianism that it's said that liberty is limited only by the equal liberty of others --or in other words, that liberty is absolute up to the point where an action infrings on the liberty of someone else. RJII 15:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

No, anarchism is characterised by its hostility to the state itself. Classical liberals such as Adam Smith were definitely not, so it is very wrong to even imply that they were somewhat anarchist. But this debate is pointless. These kind of debate, especially the extent of right and freedom should be discussed elsewhere. If you see the edit history, the original edit was "Libertarianism is a political philosophy that favors both civil and economic liberty. Libertarians oppose government intervention in private affairs except when made in the defense of liberty.". The second sentence was dropped because anarchist libertarian would object to it. This version is just more concise (and better) but it is essentially the same as your edit. What is happening is just repeating the whole process which has been done countless times in this page. As I said, give me a definition of Libertarian aside from the one you reverted which avoid sectarian disambiuation and Catch22 NPOV dillenma. FWBOarticle

• Libertarianism is a political philosophy advocating individual's liberties (the right of individuals to be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property as long as they do not initiate the use of physical force, the threat of it, or fraud against others; or, in other words, as long as they allow others the same liberty) in all espects including civil, political and economic matter (hey see no ethical distinction between civil and economic freedom). Libertarians oppose government intervention in private affairs except when made in the defense of liberty (they believe that the state should not trespass on those liberties)."

I like libertarianims because it is simple, concise and efficient. It certainly not the case here. (T_T) FWBOarticle

It is simple, but not quite as simple as you make it out to be. It does take a modicum of abstract thought to conceive. It's not just the advocacy of liberty, but the advocacy of the extent AND limitation of that liberty. That can't be ignored in the definition --that's what distinguishes it. It's liberty that is limited only by the liberty of others. RJII 19:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

FWBOarticle, I think the current definition is pretty good. One may have some critique about definitions of certain terms, but I definitely don't see a NPOV objection. I don't understand your objection on those grounds. The definition you are pushing is too vague.--DocGov 20:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

At this point, any revert would degenerate into revert war given that disagreement is aesthetic. I believe intro or for that matter, wikipedia articles should be short, concise, efficient. The current intro is a representative of this page which is +70kb, a clear violation of featured article criteria. Second objective I did not mention so far is that use of "right" and "freedom", strictly speaking, is not appropriate substitute of "liberty". This is more obvious if you know bit more about the orign/history of classical liberals. Adam Smith, Ricard, and David Hume, for example, make very little use of "right" and "freedom" in their writing. The current intro is slanted heavily in favour of modern libertarians who just appropriated the bland but don't really care what the classical liberals actually said or wrote. But obviously, Principles and History section need to be expanded. I will come back to this issue when I find the enough material to make this attribution more clear. FWBOarticle

Ops, it was quicker than I thought it would be. Clearest example is the difference between positive/negative right and positive/negative liberty.

• a negative right is a right to not be subject to an action of another human being (usually abuse or coercion). Meanwhile, a positive right is a right to be provided with something through the action of another person or group of people (usually a state). The former proscribe action, while the latter prescribe action.
• "Positive liberty is an idea that was first expressed and analyzed as a separate conception of liberty by John Stuart Mill but most notably described by Isaiah Berlin. It refers to the ability to act to fulfill one's own potential, as opposed to negative liberty, which refers to freedom from the interference of others in one's affairs.

I hope you can see that by sticking to "liberty" you get to make more clear distinction between libertarianism and modern liberalism espeicially when we start explaining why libertarianism endorse right of private establishment (such as Boy Scout) to exercise discrimniation while modern liberal doesn't because modern liberal believe everyone is "entitled" to be free from discrimination. It is also o.k. from libertarian view point for someone to form racist political party which is banned in many European countries. As long as there is no restriction on political participation, the fact that some voters or parties are racist is irrelevant. It also explain why it is o.k. for some libertarians to advocate free state funded education. FWBOarticle

Rearranging the section

Given the negative/positve liberty insertion, I believe that Principle section should be moved up. If negative/positive liberty follow immediately after the intro section, it is much better narrative in my view. I just don't know how to do it without ruining the structure of this page. :( FWBOarticle 11:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I did rearrange the structure of this page. Yes, some subsection isn't a good fit to the new section but I believe this is improvement in term of narrative. Plus, we really need to shrink the article from the current state of +70kb, transfering much of detailed explanations in some section to sister page. I believe, principle, history, policy, movement, criticism is good basis for such transfer. Honestly, I don't really know where "political spectrum" fit. It doesnt deserve separate sister page. Plus, given the principle section, I think the section become bit redundant. May be, it should be absorbed into "criticism" section. Hope you liked my edit. FWBOarticle

I also believe that "politics and movement" section can be split into two. Politics section should deal with different libertarian (ideological) groups while movement section should deal with different libertarian organisation (such as think tank like Cato institute or the magazine such as the Economist). FWBOarticle

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