| Revision as of 14:20, 6 September 2010 editOclupak (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users983 edits →Conspiracies, non-conspiracies and FAQ 3: Achieving consensus on an alternative stance is virtually impossible← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:37, 6 September 2010 edit undoJojhutton (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers48,486 edits →Conspiracies, non-conspiracies and FAQ 3: cmNext edit → | ||
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| ::::::How does one manage to arrive at a consensus if one is not allowed to expose his proposition on the talk page? What I have been witnessing here is that, one by one, all the editors who could agree with a different stance than the one proposed in the article, and which is utterly biased IMHO, is either discouraged to pursue the discussion, or is enticed to engage in a flame war which will get him blocked and ultimately banned. With such a strategy, obviously, the consensus will remain intact, forever and ever, that the 9/11 attacks were initiated by "19 Arabs who hate our freedoms". ] (]) 14:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC) | ::::::How does one manage to arrive at a consensus if one is not allowed to expose his proposition on the talk page? What I have been witnessing here is that, one by one, all the editors who could agree with a different stance than the one proposed in the article, and which is utterly biased IMHO, is either discouraged to pursue the discussion, or is enticed to engage in a flame war which will get him blocked and ultimately banned. With such a strategy, obviously, the consensus will remain intact, forever and ever, that the 9/11 attacks were initiated by "19 Arabs who hate our freedoms". ] (]) 14:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::You have, on numerous occasions, made the same propositions and accusations. Your proposals have been considered and have been ultimately rejected, by a majority consensus, yet you continue to bring up the same proposals, skimming of the surface of ] and ].--] (]) 14:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
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Good article reassessment
See Misplaced Pages:Good_article_reassessment/September_11_attacks/1
Taking over control of the aircraft
It would be useful for the article to provide more detail in this area ... " ... the hijackers used weapons to stab and kill aircraft pilots ...": what were these weapons: the box-cutters that have often been mentioned? Does "aircraft pilots" refer to the full flight crew (pilot + co-pilot + engineer if applicable) of all the affected flights? How long did the killings take? How long did it take for the dead crew to be removed from their seats so that the hijackers could occupy those seats (if that's what happened) and during this time how were communications from the aircraft to Air Traffic Control affected? Did any of the pilots have time to send emergency signals to ATC before being killed?
- Much of this is covered in as much detail as sources can provide, at each of the 4 flights' articles.--Jojhutton (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Not quite. As far we know, the only mentions of boxcutters being wielded by the "terrorists" were from phone conversations of CNN commentator Barbara Olson to her husband, then Solicitor General of the United States Ted Olson. Mrs. Olson was a passenger on American Airlines Flight 77 which is reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, and Mr. Olson claimed that he had two conversations with his wife after the airplane had been hijacked. It is not clear whether Mr. Olson claimed those conversations were made with Mrs. Olson's cell phone or with an on-board seat-phone because his story changed a few times on that matter.
- At the trial of Zacharias Moussaoui in 2006, the FBI did confirm that not two but a single phone call was made from Mrs. Olson to her husband; they also stated that the duration of that call was 0 (zero) second. The mainstream media (aka Reliable Sources) never picked up on this oddity. At any rate, the only mention of boxcutters on 9/11 was what Ted Olson said he heard from his wife on that fateful day. No other phone call from any other passenger ever mentioned the now world-famous boxcutters.
- As a WP:RS, I offer an image extracted from the official FBI documentation tabled at the Moussaoui trial and which shows that Barbara Olson made a single call at 9:18:58 to someone (presumably her husband) at the Department of Justice and that this call lasted 0 seconds: http://i52.tinypic.com/331zyoz.png).
- I know, I know, YouTube videos are frowned upon by Misplaced Pages for some reason or other but I respectfully submit that anyone interested in this matter should at least take a glance at this interview that the CBC's Fifth Estate public affairs program did with Dr. David Ray Griffin on this very subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjImLL4NnwA. The CBC is a crown corporation of the Government of Canada and should be considered a Reliable Source, I should think. Oclupak (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- An interview would only be a source for Mr. Griffin's opinion on the topic. If the video is usable (e.g. no copyright violations), it is so only in the article on 911 conspiracy theories. 77.10.186.8 (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Like I said, as much detail as sources can provide. Obviously we'll never know everything, but the phone calls and in the case of United 93, the black boxes, provide the details that were reported by Reliable sources.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- An interview would only be a source for Mr. Griffin's opinion on the topic. If the video is usable (e.g. no copyright violations), it is so only in the article on 911 conspiracy theories. 77.10.186.8 (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I know, I know, YouTube videos are frowned upon by Misplaced Pages for some reason or other but I respectfully submit that anyone interested in this matter should at least take a glance at this interview that the CBC's Fifth Estate public affairs program did with Dr. David Ray Griffin on this very subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjImLL4NnwA. The CBC is a crown corporation of the Government of Canada and should be considered a Reliable Source, I should think. Oclupak (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Last warning. Misplaced Pages is not a forum. "Anyone interested in this matter" doesn't belong here. Stop using this talk page as a forum. Next time I'll report you to the admin notice board. --Tarage (talk) 06:48, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- In any case, if this discussion does indeed result in a change to the article, It shouldn't belong here, because, well, the sources aren't reliable enough, and besides, it doesn't really merit being on this page does it. MikeLynch (talk) 06:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I only became awed when User:Oclupak made sure to put the "Dr." in front of the name "David Ray Griffin"...that must mean this Griffin guy is a real expert that we must all listen to.--MONGO 07:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
"Official version"
The article includes "Some question the official version of the bombings". But no reference or source is given for "offical version". So where can one find the official version of the bombings? Is the Misplaced Pages article itself the official version? If so, that should be stated somewhere.
86.179.209.122 (talk) 18:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- What "bombings"? The article is clearly off the mark on this one. No one ever alleged that there were any kind of "bombings" on 9/11. The Official Conspiracy Theory (OTC) states that the attacks were the result of "19 Muslims who hate our freedoms" hijacking 4 aircrafts and slamming three of them into buildings while a fourth crashed in Pennsylvania farmland. No bombing there. The most prevalent alternative conspiracy theories entertain the possibility that the WTC buildings that collapsed had previously been rigged with explosives and that the airplanes were mostly there for show. Even though nano-thermite or thermate might be described as explosive substances, I doubt their ignition would be called a "bombing". The terminology used in this case is "Controlled Demolition", not "bombings". Other theories involving mysterious energy weapons, such as the one proposed by Dr. Judy Wood, do not mention anything about "bombings". As for the Pentagon attack, no one claims any "bombing" was involved either, unless a cruise missile can be categorized as a bomb. Frankly, I can't imagine how the notion of "bombings" ever made it into the article. So thanks for pointing out that inconsistency, 86.179.209.122. It definitely should be remedied but first, we must discuss it among ourselves in order to reach consensus. I hope we'll have resolved the issue in time for the 9th anniversary of those horrible events, which is barely a week away. Oclupak (talk) 00:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Fixed "bombings" issue. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Not entirely :-) The wording is now "Some question the official version of the attacks, the motivations behind them, and the parties involved, and have engaged in independent investigations. Most of the alternative theories see the bombings ...". In any case, that wasn't the main point, which was about where the "official version" of 9/11 can be found. 86.174.168.197 (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I fixed it...not sure why this section has as much in it as it does since the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 are both ludicrous and preposterous.--MONGO 05:26, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Time magazine has used the term "official version". However, "conclusions published by U.S. government agencies" or "account of the U.S. government" would be possible alternatives, in my view. Cs32en Talk to me 06:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- What about the numerous engineering studies that have been done independent of the feds? Or those that understand that the easiest explanation is usually the right one.--MONGO 06:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- If we would refer to them, we would need to take the different conclusions drawn by different authors (i.e. NIST vs. FEMA) into account. What is important here, as opposed to the World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories article, are not the engineering details, but the overall account, i.e. primarily the account given by the 9/11 Commission. Cs32en Talk to me 06:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- NIST superceded FEMA in the investigation...NIST has greater engineering expertise but didn't get assigned the job initially. It might have been martians though...or a gamma ray burst.--MONGO 06:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- If we would refer to them, we would need to take the different conclusions drawn by different authors (i.e. NIST vs. FEMA) into account. What is important here, as opposed to the World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories article, are not the engineering details, but the overall account, i.e. primarily the account given by the 9/11 Commission. Cs32en Talk to me 06:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- What about the numerous engineering studies that have been done independent of the feds? Or those that understand that the easiest explanation is usually the right one.--MONGO 06:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Removal of content sourced to the Washington Post and TIME magazine
MONGO (talk · contribs) has removed content based on articles published by the Washington Post and TIME magazine. The editor argues that these articles are "4 years old" and that they would be op-ed pieces.
Both articles are not opinion pieces, and the Washington Post article is written by a staff member of the newspaper. Also, there are many sources in the article that are more than four years old.
MONGO wants to describe all people who disagree with the account of the events given by the U.S. government as "conspiracy theorists". However, reliable sources have generally used the term "conspiracy theorist" for people who propagate the theories, not for the people who simply believe in them (a larger percentage of the population, according to the opionion polls cited by the Washington Post and TIME magazine. No source for this use of "conspiracy theorists" has been provided.
Maybe the best way to move forward now is to restore the article to the status quo ante, i.e. to the version before MONGO's edits, and to continue the discussion (including on the issues discussed in the section above) in order to reach a consensus on how to improve the article. Cs32en Talk to me 06:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- ^ Powell, Michael (September 8, 2006). "The Disbelievers". The Washington Post. Retrieved May 30, 2009.
the widespread belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11
- Grossman, Lev (September 3, 2006). "Why the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Won't Go Away". Time.
Thirty-six percent adds up to a lot of people. This is not a fringe phenomenon. It is a mainstream political reality.
- I have a question...can you explain this? There is no "status quo ante" on this website...--MONGO 06:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Let me ask you how, in your view, this edit is related to this discussion. The edit maybe was not perfect, as it included, in addition to several reliable sources, a primary source. While there is no overall "status quo ante" of the article, there is a version of the article that existed before the current discussion took place, and I think it's best the restore this version as a first step, and to continue building consensus on the talk page. Cs32en Talk to me 06:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Tracking contributions...do it all the time...I'm good at it. See WP:NOT...Misplaced Pages is NOT a soapbox for propaganda...especially fringe views and those promoting non-science over science. Both pieces are op-eds...they add nothing to the article except the "loud whisper" that not everyone believes in the facts of the case...some simply have to rely on fantasies.--MONGO 07:07, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- If there is a "widespread belief" (Washington Post) that the Bush administration was somehow complicit in the attacks, and multiple reliable sources have reported on that fact, then this information is notable. That does not depend on whether such a belief is right or wrong. As an aside, I would suggest that you spend more time improving Misplaced Pages articles rather than tracking the contributions of other users. Cs32en Talk to me 11:45, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't even think that this paragraph belongs in this article. I very much doubt whether any serious academic work about 9/11 would also include fringe viewpoints. I say remove it entirely. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- If there is a "widespread belief" (Washington Post) that the Bush administration was somehow complicit in the attacks, and multiple reliable sources have reported on that fact, then this information is notable. That does not depend on whether such a belief is right or wrong. As an aside, I would suggest that you spend more time improving Misplaced Pages articles rather than tracking the contributions of other users. Cs32en Talk to me 11:45, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Tracking contributions...do it all the time...I'm good at it. See WP:NOT...Misplaced Pages is NOT a soapbox for propaganda...especially fringe views and those promoting non-science over science. Both pieces are op-eds...they add nothing to the article except the "loud whisper" that not everyone believes in the facts of the case...some simply have to rely on fantasies.--MONGO 07:07, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Let me ask you how, in your view, this edit is related to this discussion. The edit maybe was not perfect, as it included, in addition to several reliable sources, a primary source. While there is no overall "status quo ante" of the article, there is a version of the article that existed before the current discussion took place, and I think it's best the restore this version as a first step, and to continue building consensus on the talk page. Cs32en Talk to me 06:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
This is not the article for the conspiracy theories, Se FAQ #3 above as to why.--Jojhutton (talk) 13:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- FAQ #3 above reads "Should the article provide evidence supporting a conspiracy?" This discussion, however, is not about whether the article should provide any such evidence. It is about whether the information, reported on by multiple reliable sources, that there is "widespread belief" that the official account is inaccurate, should be included in the article. While this is not the article about 9/11 conspiracy theories, neither is it the article about U.S. policy changes after 2001, about the biographies of the hijackers, or about the memorials. However, all these things, including the existence of the conspiracy theories, are closely related to the actual event, and therefore, they are included in the article, usually with a link to the respective sub-article. Cs32en Talk to me 13:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I mentioned in a recent post that this article needs a lot of trimming to get back to the core of the issue, namely the event itself...just haven't yet decided how or what should be reduced or eliminated.--MONGO 15:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Conspiracies, non-conspiracies and FAQ 3
I'm deeply puzzled by the answer to FAQ 3 (Should the article provide evidence supporting a conspiracy?). The tone of A3 strongly suggests (although it doesn't state explicitly) that the attacks of September 11 were not the result of a conspiracy. Yet the article itself begins by saying that the attacks "were a series of coordinated suicide attacks". Does coordination of a series of attacks not amount to a conspiracy?
If 9/11 was not the result of a conspiracy, I can only think of the following alternatives:
1) The attacks were the work of a lone individual.
2) The attacks were the work of 2 or more lone individuals acting independently of each other.
3) The "attacks" were not deliberate attacks at all, but the results of aviation accidents.
To the best of my knowledge, absolutely no one - whether the US Government, the 9/11 Commission, the media (mainstream or otherwise) or independent researchers - has ever proposed 1 - 3 or anything like them. And common sense would suggest that 1 - 3, while theoretically possible, are extremely unlikely to be true explanations for 9/11.
I would be grateful for any comments. Rostro (talk) 20:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Semantics. --Tarage (talk) 03:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Clearly, the official version propagated by the mainstream media IS a conspiracy theory. Let's call it the Official Conspiracy Theory (OCT). It then stands to reason that the OCT should be presented on the 9/11 conspiracy theories page, along with the alternative theories. In a nutshell, all conspiracy theories should be eradicated from the September_11_attacks page, which should be free of any speculation of any kind and should restrict itself to the universally-agreed upon facts. The opening paragraph could be rewritten thus:
- The September 11 attacks (often referred to as September 11th or 9/11) were a series of coordinated attacks upon the United States on September 11, 2001. On that morning, four commercial passenger jet airliners were diverted fom their scheduled itineraries. Two of the airliners were deliberately crashed into the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, killing everyone on board and many others working in the buildings. Both buildings collapsed within two hours, destroying nearby buildings and damaging others. A third airliner crashed into the Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia, just outside Washington, D.C. The fourth plane crashed into a field near Shanksville in rural Pennsylvania after it had been redirected toward Washington, D.C. There were no survivors from any of the flights.
- The goal should be to transform this article into a Good Article, devoid of any bias whatsoever. It should state the facts, only the facts. Oclupak (talk) 12:18, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is no such theory of what you call the Official Conspiracy theory. Giving it its own acronym doesn't help make it official either. There is only what happened that day, based on reliable sources and independent investigations. Continuing to use the talk page as a forum to push your own personal theory in order to place doubt on the correctness of the investigation is contrary to WP:Forum.--Jojhutton (talk) 12:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've modified FAQ question 3 to clarify that it's about conspiracy theories, not real conspiracies. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:31, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- The goal should be to transform this article into a Good Article, devoid of any bias whatsoever. It should state the facts, only the facts. Oclupak (talk) 12:18, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is anyone allowed to go over and change the FAQ without prior consultation with fellow editors? I thought that kind of gesture required a consensus among editors. Was I wrong? Can I go over and change the content of the FAQ myself? Oclupak (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- The FAQ reflects the long-term consensus of the community. AQFK's edit is in line with the consensus. You have been using this talk page as a forum, as you have been advised, and do not have a consensus for the changes you propose. Acroterion (talk) 13:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- How does one manage to arrive at a consensus if one is not allowed to expose his proposition on the talk page? What I have been witnessing here is that, one by one, all the editors who could agree with a different stance than the one proposed in the article, and which is utterly biased IMHO, is either discouraged to pursue the discussion, or is enticed to engage in a flame war which will get him blocked and ultimately banned. With such a strategy, obviously, the consensus will remain intact, forever and ever, that the 9/11 attacks were initiated by "19 Arabs who hate our freedoms". Oclupak (talk) 14:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- You have, on numerous occasions, made the same propositions and accusations. Your proposals have been considered and have been ultimately rejected, by a majority consensus, yet you continue to bring up the same proposals, skimming of the surface of WP:Point and WP:BLP.--Jojhutton (talk) 14:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- How does one manage to arrive at a consensus if one is not allowed to expose his proposition on the talk page? What I have been witnessing here is that, one by one, all the editors who could agree with a different stance than the one proposed in the article, and which is utterly biased IMHO, is either discouraged to pursue the discussion, or is enticed to engage in a flame war which will get him blocked and ultimately banned. With such a strategy, obviously, the consensus will remain intact, forever and ever, that the 9/11 attacks were initiated by "19 Arabs who hate our freedoms". Oclupak (talk) 14:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Conflict of interest
Significant content edits have been performed by an editor who, by their own statement, was a past and possibly present employee of the United States Department of Homeland Security (USDHS).(ref). This is about as severe a conflict of interest as it gets for an editor working on a 9/11 article, as the USDHS owes its existence to the 9/11 incident, and its continued existence may be in part dependent upon the American citizenry continuing to believe in or accept the official story. I respectfully request that this editor (MONGO) recuse him or herself from any further editing on 9/11 articles which exceeds correcting non-controversial typographical errors. I have restored the September 11 attacks article to its condition prior to these controversial edits; editors without a conflict of interest are welcome to make edits as they deem appropriate. Wildbear (talk) 02:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Good luck with that one.--MONGO 02:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- What policy or guideline does Wilbear offer, to back up his/her request?--Jojhutton (talk) 02:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- None...he just wanted to insult me. People have tried for years to get me off the 9/11 pages and they have all failed...in fact, most have been banned...some have returned and been rebanned....some may yet be banned...who knows.--MONGO 02:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- What policy or guideline does Wilbear offer, to back up his/her request?--Jojhutton (talk) 02:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- When did this turn to a forum? Please stick to the topic at hand. If Wildbear thinks there is a conflict of interest, then he is eligible to raise issues. I urge my fellow editors to be civil. MikeLynch (talk) 03:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
If you have a problem with a specific editor, take it up on that editor's talk page. We don't need witch hunts on this talk page. --Tarage (talk) 03:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
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