Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:23, 8 October 2010

• WP:AN
• WP:ANB

• For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
• To request review of an administrator's action or other use of advanced permissions, use Misplaced Pages:Administrative action review
• If you are new, try the Teahouse instead.
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead, follow the instructions on Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight.
• For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent.
• Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here.
• Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• If you want to challenge the closure of a request for comment, use {{RfC closure review}}

When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough.

You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search)

Template:Active editnotice

Time for WP:RFRD?

We're getting more and more requests for rev del at ANI. Do we think there's enough frequency here to split off those requests into a "Requests for revision deletion" board? I don't watchlist ANI, but I could watchlist something more modest like this. Jclemens (talk) 17:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Certain requests for revision deletion (outing, personal information, so forth) ought not be posted at ANI at all, nor any central noticeboard. –xeno 18:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course. But the fact remains that we have at least half a dozen on ANI right now. I would expect that you'd put this list on {{admin dashboard}} for quick action, much like our take on {{db-attack}}, such that we'd reduce the risk vs. just accepting them on ANI by quickly handling them. Jclemens (talk) 18:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if we could "appropriate" something, like the unblock-l mailing list that has lots of admin eyes on it, yet is still private, to direct such requests to? Because posting on ANI is defeating the whole point of RevDel, as would a separate noticeboard. A separate mailing list might be a better idea, actually. Courcelles 18:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, if something really merits oversight, we're pretty clear on that one, but there are plenty of gross insults meriting RD2 but not oversight. This would be targeted for those, again, like G10s. Jclemens (talk) 18:15, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Irony. I was literaly just coming here to pose the same question. WP:BURO and WP:BEANS aside, surely it's better to have REVDEL requests somewhere better than the highly visible (and some may say toxic) atmosphere of ANI. I'm not sure what my opinion is on wether it's better to have a board or a mailing list (gut instinct is that I don't like mailing lists) but it's clear we need something per Jclemens. Pedro :  Chat  19:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I vote for a board. Instructions should make clear that you should not identify anything in the objectionable content when posting diffs. These requests can be handled very quickly. --Selket 20:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• I guess I missed the boat on this. Are the rev-delete criteria that broad that items which merit rev deletion show up dozens of time a day? How many things are we rev deleting which would be better left in the history and reverted? Protonk (talk) 21:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The main things appear to be BLP violations in edit summaries (which can't just be reverted) and extremely offensive BLP violations in the text of an article. Personal information happens but is rarer. -Selket 21:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Well, based on my reading of ANI today, it certainly seems like it. Feel free to peruse it and make up your own mind on whether the number of requests is based on merit (they should have indeed been made and done) or overuse (better simply reverted, as you say). Jclemens (talk) 21:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I was just thinking about this today, considering how many revdel requests are on the ANI board right now. Since I've found myself doing so many of them lately anyway, I'd be happy to sign up for a mailing list or watchlist a noticeboard, whichever way people want to go. I just don't think that ANI is the best place in the long term for these requests. -- Atama頭 21:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we should make this more clear on the WP:REVDEL policy page, just as it is on the requests for oversight page? I do have to agree with Xeno, that we should be discouraging people to post Revision deletion requests on ANI or any noticeboard as that only creates a "Streisand effect", which we don't want. –MuZemike 21:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

At the same time, though, we can be sure that any request getting posted at ANI will get rapidly dealt with; earlier today, I dealt with one report within three minutes of it getting posted. Unless it's oversightable stuff (which should always be emailed anyway), I think overall it's better for these reports to get a minute or two of high-profile attention than to send it off to what is certain to be an under-staffed and under-utilized mailing list, where requests may end up getting left around for hours or missed entirely (which does happen, even on the OTRS lists at times). Hersfold 21:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The ability to stick a {{resolved}} on an entry is one reason I prefer a noticeboard to a mailing list. Jclemens (talk) 21:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes not, though; we had an outing issue on ANI yesterday which ended up with at least three admins having to revdelete about fifty revisions on half a dozen articles. By the time that had been cleared up, any editor who was interested would have known who the editor concerned was in real life. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I hope that situation is the exception, not the rule. That was a situation where personal information was sitting on a talk page for 2 years without being reverted. I doubt that happens a lot (or am I being naive?). -- Atama頭 22:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Outing issues shouldn't go to ANI anyway; those DO belong at the oversight list for that reason. Normal revdelete stuff - grossly offensive attacks, copyright vios, etc., can be handled in due time. Hersfold 02:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anything that needs RevDel also needs public postings. Noticeboards are fast, but visible. Mailing lists are private, but slower. I don't think there's a good solution either way. I would prefer a mailing list over a noticeboard, but both have their drawbacks. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 02:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Consider, though, that a RevDel mailing list OR noticeboard can explicitly exclude anything that meets the criteria for oversighting. RevDel on the way to oversighting is not something appropriate for such a noticeboard; RevDel for inappropriate content that does not rise to that level is. Jclemens (talk) 02:22, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Very true, but people will inevitably ignore things like that and post OSable stuff publicly because either they don't understand the gravity of the situation or they don't bother reading important notices. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 20:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Although a standalone specialised board could really, really whack people in the face with the need not to do that. Also such a board would provide a convenient single place to go for removing info from public view, since in explaining the difference between RevDel and Oversight it would point people to the latter's email address. This would also been opportunity to clarify under what circumstances Oversight is now preferred to RevDel, which I don't think is clear enough. eg at Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight some of the points seem like RevDel. Finally, it would help keep experience with handling these requests in one place, which may be helpful for consistency. Rd232 15:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

What I'm afraid is going to happen is that people are going to start posting stuff that should be oversighted on-wiki to this noticeboard, making it visible in two places instead of just one. –MuZemike 04:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Well if that really happens, even after taking advantage of the specialisation to make the issue much more prominent and clearer than it is now at AN/ANI, then we can delete the board and try something else. Rd232 08:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I think you'll find that those who wish to harass users via outing will game the system to make the personal information known in as many places as possible. Unless there is a bright line against posting personal information, like if in doubt do not do it, if unsure, do not do it, etc, it will continue to happen for a variety of reasons. Until the consequences of doing so are clearly not worth the thrill of harassment, it will continue. Bullies will always justify their tactics until it is clearly and uniformly forbidden. 71.139.5.184 (talk) 10:30, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Just a thought, but as we already have {{Copyvio-histpurge}}/Category:Requested history purges and {{Non-free reduced}}/Category:Rescaled fairuse images, both of which involve revision deletions (AFAIK anyway), why not implement something similar along these lines? In any case, as I commented at the TfD for {{Copyvio-histpurge}}, I don't think it would be appropriate to delete that template without having something to replace it. PC78 (talk) 15:14, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Seems that the discussion has died down a bit, and people have staked out a few definite positions, which I'm going to try to summarize here:

Position 1: Nothing new is needed

The status quo position. Editors can be encouraged to use the oversight mailing list and/or discouraged from posting anything to ANI. The risk of centralizing RevDel requests anywhere per either of the following outweighs the benefits in doing so.

Support

1. 2nd choice to establishing an "WikiEN-admins" mailing list, see discussion below. –MuZemike 15:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
2. First choice per my comments above. Hersfold 16:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
3. Sorry, but I just don't see any good way to deal with this. ANI has its speed benefits, and hopefully no one is stupid enough to post private info there. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 00:58, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
4. No matter how fast ANI or a new board can take care of the problem, material that is subject to revdel should not be posted anywhere in the same way that oversight requests should not be onwiki. I have no objects to a new mailing list, but don't think it's necessary. -Atmoz (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
5. Kevin Baas 17:31, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
6. I agree that we should discourage new posting of the offensive material on site by making a new board that hosts it. Anyone that puts the noticeboard on their watchlist will see the content. This looks like a well intended proposal, but would led to more focus on the content not less. For example, an internet site could easily find the offensive material if it monitors the noticeboard. Also, the content is not always corrected perfectly with revdel on the first try. It is not uncommon for extra diff with offensive material to be left on the page in error. So we are potential taking a page with low page views to one with much higher page views. For these reasons, I recommend against a centralized noticeboard. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 09:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

   I respect your concern but "Anyone that puts the noticeboard on their watchlist will see the content. " is exaggerated. Generally people will be sensible enough not to put sensitive content in an edit summary or on the board itself (and revdel is available for errors here); so it's generally just diffs to the content, which people will need to first go to the board for, and then click on. Diffs which will disappear as soon as the revdel is done. And I'm not quite sure who is supposed to be out there looking on a continuous basis for revdel content on anybody on Misplaced Pages in case something interesting gets rev-deleted (meaning: no source for it). I can't quite see a market for that. Anyway, we can slightly guard against this by keeping even the subject/topic out of the edit summary - eg just "RevDel Request 817". Rd232 10:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

   Everyone that reports a contribution to be revdel will have the page added to there watchlist, right? So overtime the number of people who are alerted about new content will steadily grow. But I'm not primarily concerned about the innocent rubberneckers, but the people who deliberately troll. Our internal discussions are monitored by people who are banned and in dispute with Misplaced Pages editors/admins and WMF, and the also people who are the subject of articles. When I checked my email today before posting this I saw an email on checkuser mailing list about a vandal account who was trolling and mentioning the name of a banned wikpeida editor in their trolling on meta. I'm very concerned that putting the content in a centralized location will expose more low profile content to these vandals and trolls. We know that trolls and banned users are already doing this to some degree. This will make it easier for them to see the newest content that is problematic enough to be remove. IMO, we will be making the situation worse for the sake of efficiency of processing the requests. Also, my concern is that people will get the impression that placing the content on this page is the "right" way to get it removed when it would be by far better to quietly contact an active admin to do it. Also, on this page are there going to be discussions about whether to keep revdel, or whether to escalate to suppression. Will someone be clerking the page to keep out discussions and questions about content? FloNight♥♥♥♥ 08:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

   Well as I said below, it comes down to which you think is more of a problem: A) people seeing Bad content in the article before it's RevDeleted, because they're reading the article (or at least watching it and seeing the Bad edit) or B) vandals and trolls looking to cause problems, and deciding to use Bad content to help them, and getting easier, centralised access to it, albeit in very brief bites before it's RevDeleted. I don't see any easy answers to prevent both - the current solutions offered basically trade off A and B (and to me A feels marginally more of a Real Life problem and B marginally more Misplaced Pages, though both have both qualities). More complete answers might be some completely new approach, like say a Site Notice type thing which is only visible to admins (and can be dismissed immediately once the issue is handled). Or else a board which can only be read by admins (but permitting posts from anyone). In the mean time, the current system defaults to ANI, which has the worst qualities of both A and B. We can emphasise at the new board that if you can catch an admin active right now (eg get an onwiki or IRC confirmation they'll respond quickly to an email you're about to send), then that may be preferable to posting on the board. Again: this explanation is not an option at ANI. Rd232 11:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not in favour of either of the other two options; more consideration needed before we do either. John Vandenberg 07:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• You gotta be kidding. We're supposed to be trying to decrease the impact of these postings, not highlighting them, with a noticeboard whose history will include all of the articles that have been vandalized....or users who have been on the receiving end of harassment....or the ones that actually need to be oversighted. Try this sample post to ANI instead. "HI, I need an admin to do a revdelete, could an admin please email me? Thanks!" Much better to wait fifteen minutes, with three people seeing the problem edit, than wait five minutes with 300, including folks taking screenshots of it just to prove how inept we are. Risker (talk) 08:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • screenshot of what? A specialised board can provide detailed guidance on how to make a request without revealing any more info than necessary, as well as providing guidance on how to try contacting someone directly instead. Rd232 10:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• Per the other functionaries who have explained why we should not do this. oppose any of the other options. A noticeboard is a very bad idea. A new mailing list is a bad idea. ++Lar: t/c 18:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment Not convinced on the issues some have raised here. RevDelete (in this sense) is not the same as oversight/suppression and doesn't need the same degree of off-wiki privacy. It's in effect a cousin of WP:CSD. Attack pages may be emailed to oversighters or asked about off-wiki, but the norm is they are simply tagged on-wiki and dealt with by admins as a routine on-wiki matter. RevDelete (in admin mode, as being discussed here) handles similar kinds of issues. So I see no problem with it being visible on-wiki that RevDelete has been requested. A noticeboard seems the sensible option. FT2  11:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

  We don't have a CSD noticeboard. They are tagged, as you point out, and dealt with sans a public record+discussion of them being left behind. John Vandenberg 07:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Position 2: Add a new noticeboard

A new noticeboard provides a centralized place, much like the monitoring of {{db-attack}} where RevDel'able material can be widely watchlisted and quickly handled by interested admins. We can NOINDEX it, point people to oversight mailing list for serious issues, and not archive it to keep the Streisand effect to a minimum to mitigate the known risks.

Support

1. As proposer. Jclemens (talk) 04:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
2. Sounds good. Access Denied 06:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
3. Makes sense to me. Disagree it will necessarily have slower responses than ANI. Yes, ANI has more watchers, but the relevant watching will be from active admins, which is a pretty small group - and with proper announcements, that shouldn't be an issue. If anything, it might lead to quicker responses, because ANI has so much else going on that (a) requests won't appear on watchlists the same way they will on a specialised board and (b) quite a few admins basically ignore ANI as taking too much time and trouble, and at least some of these may watch the new board. Rd232 19:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
4. Can't hurt to give it a try. I agree with Rd232's points as well. Airplaneman ✈ 23:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
5. Good idea, we already have the category for attack pages. Make it like AIV, dealt-with reports should automatically be removed. Maybe make disposable date-based subpages that are deleted a soon as everything for that day is done? — Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 02:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
6. The lesser of all evils. I think it would likely be well maintained to be honest - AIV is rarely backlogged for example and I'd view it as a similar board. Pedro :  Chat  13:59, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
7. I think it would help get these requests off ANI and would bring faster response than an email list. -- Atama頭 20:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
8. Seems like a sensible proposal, as worded, above. -- Cirt (talk) 20:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
9. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
10. Give it a try. I like the bot idea. MER-C 02:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
11. Yes. MLauba 10:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
12. Sounds like a good idea, but oppose the use of a bot for revision deletion. This task should be made by humans, to avoid bugs in the bot causing problems. Armbrust _Contribs 14:39, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
13. Provided that it bears a prominent warnings, including an editnotice, that requests for the removal of non-public information are NOT to be placed on the noticeboard under any circumstances, but must instead be emailed to the oversight list or otherwise transmitted to oversighters privately. WP:AN/I currently lacks such an editnotice, and the warning in the header is buried. Also, a dedicated noticeboard easily facilitates the revision deletion of the requests themselves, when necessary, while WP:AN/I will probably have too many unrelated intervening edits. Peter Karlsen (talk) 05:18, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
14. As long as the material linked to there isn't oversightable, this is probably the best way. The page's header and editnotice can ensure that users know what not to put there, and it's as visible as Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as attack pages, which I believe is on the same level. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
15. Support per precisely Peter Karlsen's thoughts above. Arbitrarily0  15:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
16. Would result in plenty of people handling the requests, so response times would be similar to AIV or RFPP, and would stop these requests piling up on ANI. Possibly we could delete the page once a day to remove any problematic material in the edit history. Hut 8.5 12:51, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
17. I think it is a good idea. --Alpha Quadrant 01:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
18. Support per my comment in previous section. RevDelete in the sense being discussed is used as a cousin to WP:CSD which are tagged on-wiki and not seen as a problem to do so. The kinds of issue for which RevDelete will be used here, are similar to those which have CSD templates and where on-wiki tagging and eventual admin action have been used for years. No problem with them being listed at a noticeboard. FT2  11:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

• Too high-profile, and likely wouldn't be handled as quickly as they would on ANI. Hersfold 16:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• What if we have a bot that automatically revdels revisions submitted to the board (with limits on number of revisions per user in a time period and perhaps require submitter to be autoconfirmed, etc. to prevent abuse) pending admin review? This way any revisions submitted would be revdel'd immediately and invisible to most people, but we still retain the benefits of a public noticeboard. T. Canens (talk) 00:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
  • What, so we'd then go back and check for abuses, reverse them, and block editors for requests made in bad faith? Hmm... that's a radically different proposal. Not sure I've thought through all the implications yet. Jclemens (talk) 19:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    • In any case an obvious, um, advantage of this noticeboard idea is that it permits automation. E.g. very much in the spirit of a completely open Misplaced Pages something similar to Deletionpedia could be set up. A bot could save all problematic edits on a server outside the Wikimedia Foundation's hands before an admin gets around to dealing with them. This would take inclusionism to a new level and would certainly be useful for all kinds of research about Misplaced Pages. Hans Adler 19:56, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
      • This is such a distant possibility that any further discussion of it is really an unnecessary and possibly even counter-productive distraction. In any case, if volumes ever get high enough for people to seriously consider automation, I doubt the existence of a board would make all that much difference. In other words... come back c. 2015 and see how things are going. :) Rd232 22:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
        • It appears that you've come around (based on what some more recent posts are saying) to realising that this is not "such a distant possibility" as to be discounted, but rather a very real clear and present danger. Did you want to formally retract the above and then apologize to those you cast aspersions on? Might help soften some of the opposition to any change in the status quo among many of those who have actual experience with oversight and other privacy sensitive roles within WMF. Because your latest proposal, that RFO be enhanced to speak to the revdel aspect without any encouragement of posting any private information, is a lot closer to what's needful here if we want to properly respect privacy and not enable those who actively wish the project and its volunteers harm than where you started from. Which is to be applauded. ++Lar: t/c 14:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with Hersfold. We are taking content that often is only on a page with a very low number of view, and moving it to a centralized page where many more people will see it. Seems to me this approach would make it possible for someone to monitor the page and see their offensive comments repeated. Some of our worst vandals look for new people to harass. Copycat vandals are a problem, and could be made worse if the material is centralized. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 09:28, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
  • It's not obvious that many more people will see it than on ANI, which is the status quo. Non-admins wouldn't have much of a reason to monitor the new board (would they?) and the setup (unlike at ANI) can very clearly be limiting info to diffs, which die for non-admins as soon as RevDel is done. "Some of our worst vandals look for new people to harass." I can't comment on that - I'm not aware of anything like that and it doesn't obviously make sense to me (I thought vandals generally targeted editors, unless they had a real-life grudge). And if the material is swiftly RevDeleted, copycat vandals don't have anything to copy. And remains true that if this actually happens, we can pull the plug very easily. There's also the issue of alternatives: the only one which avoids this risk entirely is a new admin mailing list, which creates issues with timeliness of response, as well as perhaps coordination problems. A priori, I'd put not removing things from the page in question with due speed as a higher problem than potential problems from centralisation, but maybe I'm just unfamiliar with that territory. Rd232 10:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Actually, most people have the sense to find an administrator on a one-to-one basis to ask for a revdelete. And the only "timeliness" issue is the number of readers who see the problem edit between its identification and its removal. Fifteen minutes with three people seeing it is a lot better than 5 minutes with 300 people seeing it...copying it...discussing it... Risker (talk) 08:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • The 3 people are more likely the ones who actually care about the subject and perhaps know the person IRL; the 300 (in 5 minutes?!) are likely admins and random passersby. Rd232 10:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
        • And malicious lurkers rubbing their hands in glee that their bot gets to auto archive the content all the links posted... lots of raw material for later mischief in one handy place. We should not be encouraging anyone to post any details of the problems themselves and a notice board is likely to do just that. ++Lar: t/c 18:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
          • It need not, and why would it? As explained, it can be designed as merely a central place for contacting admins about RevDelete, with no-info logging of request handling. This would be better than the status quo, which is ANI + an unknown number of requests never made by people who are unaware of RevDel or how to get a request executed. Rd232 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Note

I have added this straw poll to {{Centralized discussion}}. Access Denied 21:15, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

• Eww, the idea is to revdel something before lots of people notice it. If we create a noticeboard, people will use it rather than dig around a bit further until they find the way to privately request revdel. John Vandenberg 07:43, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • And a big notice at the noticeboard suggesting they contact someone privately wouldn't help them? You could even have a system by which admins log themselves in and out at the board as available right now for private messages. (Ideally with some kind of software backup to check for them forgetting to log out.) Rd232 10:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Position 3: Add a new mailing list

A mailing list loses the {{resolved}} capability of a noticeboard, but it's relatively simple to restrict membership to admins such that we're not putting requests for rev deletion directly onto Misplaced Pages... as long as people follow the instructions.

Support

Discussion

• If we were to go forward with a "WikiEN-admins" mailing list, it would definitely need to be non-public for obvious reasons; non-admins can post to the list, but they will not be able to subscribe to it or view any other emails in it (similar to "unblock-en-l" regarding unblock requests). Something like this would also open the door for other forms of (at times sensitive) discourse exclusively amongst en.wiki admins. I'm leaning towards supporting if at the least to see if this is a viable route to go, but perhaps more discussion is necessary if we wish to go in this direction. –MuZemike 15:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
• Ewww. I get enough emails already from the lists I'm already on. Also has severe risk for these requests to fall through the cracks and never get noticed. Hersfold 16:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
• Can't people just send stuff into WP:RFO's mailing list like they do now? That's what I do. Gets the job done. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Likewise. Also, if there are two mailing lists, some mail will go to one place that should have been sent to the other, and then it will be forwarded to the right place - increasing the net exposure of information that's being removed because it shouldn't be exposed. Better to just make the current Oversight infrastructure a front end for all of this stuff. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:52, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

• a new mailing list for admins could be quite useful, but it should be considered with more than this in mind, by way of a full RFC. John Vandenberg 07:50, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• Neutralhomer is correct, Requests for Oversight is a better alternative than a noticeboard. First off, a goodly number of published requests for revision deletion have actually been serious enough for oversight. Secondly, the oversighters keep a pretty close watch on the mailing list, and most requests are DISCREETLY addressed in a short time. Finally, the more people who are on a mailing list, the higher the likelihood of leaks. Any mailing list with a thousand people on it is going to leak like a sieve. Risker (talk) 08:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm confused: are you suggesting all RevDeletion be handled via RFO (discounting cases of admins being approached directly)? Doesn't that require all the work to be done by oversighters, or else admins to have access to it (which I thought they didn't)? Rd232 10:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • This board has received, what, 5 requests for revision deletion in the last month? There were hundreds of revision deletions during that time. The oversighters can handle the few that aren't already addressed in other ways. But creating a noticeboard whose main effect will be to PUBLICISE EDITS NEEDING REVISION DELETION defeats the purpose of revision deletion. As to whether or not it will be overwork on the part of oversighters, the oversight team had no difficulty keeping up with the volume of requests before admins had revdelete, and it would be even simpler now with better workload management and a wider timezone availability of oversighters. The argument that it would be too hard for a newbie to find an admin doesn't make a lot of sense; the biggest issue that newbies face is that they don't even know that certain edits can be revdeleted, and they're no more likely to go to the "right" noticeboard than to anywhere else. Here's a question for you, though. Why are there so many revision deletions? Has anyone been reviewing them to ensure that policy is being followed? I'd venture to say that at least 30% of the ones I look at aren't covered by policy. Risker (talk) 11:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • "Has anyone been reviewing them to ensure that policy is being followed?" - how? A specialised board would permit some reviewing, as even after swift deletion, other admins could look. Consistency is one of the arguments for having a board: and it's a big argument, because there's quite lot of uncertainty both among admins and among everyone else as to what qualifies. The former figuring out some kind of agreed practice would be a basis for more clarity all round. Rd232 13:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Of course, if oversighters can handle the load that well, then having them do all RevDeletion would be one way to both centralise and ensure consistency. Leave admins the RevDel right but as a matter of practice, point everything to WP:RFO. Rd232 14:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • No matter how vociferously you shout "PUBLICISE EDITS NEEDING REVISION DELETION", that doesn't mean that this board will do much of that. I've made various suggestions as to how the board can make posting at the board a last resort, with alternatives given at the board itself which avoid making any info public. Those alternatives are not publicised anywhere else! There needs to be a central place to handle this, even if the place itself doesn't actually handle the info itself and thus isn't really a board. But it would make sense for it to handle posts on occasion as a last resort. Rd232 14:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
        • it needs to not do any of that. Not one bit. Else I think regardless of consensus it needs to not be done... consensus cannot override WMF privacy policy. I do like the idea about tracking that mail was sent, and that it was handled, without any actual details of what the mail says, but as soon as any details are made public, no. Not acceptable. ++Lar: t/c 18:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Position 4: status quo

Position 1 does not adequately describe the status quo ante, which is unhelpful. Currently we have

1. WP:RFO
2. WP:ANI
3. Contacting admins directly.

1. currently ignores RevDel. 2. is highly visible (most watched page?), has no relevant guidance for RevDel, and if it had any, it would be pretty well lost in the existing noise of instruction. 3. Is haphazard, and especially for newbies problematic. For anyone, creates the problem of knowing whether an admin will actually respond to an email or user talk page request in a timely manner. Now let's review this again: who supports this? Rd232 10:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• I do. (nice straw dog by the way but ok) It is not perfect but it's better than either of alternatives 2 or 3. Especially 2 (a new noticeboard) which is fraught with peril. ++Lar: t/c 18:28, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• Status quo works for me, as apparently it does for the majority of people looking for revision deletion. Please note these statistics here: Misplaced Pages:Revision deletion/Statistics Given this data, it's pretty clear that this is a tool being used by a wide range of administrators, and that it is being used very regularly; the numbers you are seeing here are only from five months. As I noted above, I am concerned to see this many revision deletions being done; in fairness, when administrators got the tool, some went and reviewed long-present data that was not covered under the strict deletion policy but was covered under the revision deletion policy. Risker (talk) 16:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

  As an aside, do we have any idea what a similar slice of oversighting actions was in the preceding period? I'd be interested in knowing if a lot of these revdels are things that previously would have gone and been accepted for oversight, or if it is the wider availability of the tool + perhaps a less firm grasp on what can and cannot be revdel'd. Syrthiss (talk) 17:05, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

By and large, oversight only oversighted things that would get the foundation sued and personal data about people. Statements such as "Foo is a ***ing *** whose ***ing mother ***s ***ing goats" would just have been reverted. Go back prior to revdelete in the history of Jeremy's talkpage and you'll see what I mean. These days they revdelete the 4chan stuff. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Position 5: RevDel Central

A "noticeboard" (really a RevDel equivalent of RFO) designed as a central place for explaining how to make RevDel requests, elaborating some kind of system to make contacting admins by email more transparent (without making any info public) and less haphazard. Exactly how this would work can be hashed out later; the principles of this proposal are i) no info public and ii) a central place to explain and manage requests. This can be done in any number of ways (and would probably evolve over time, like everything else). For example it could be structured as a log with "request number # sent by email to Admin Y at time such and such", and after deletion the admin responds on the board with a link so other admins can review. Or, if we didn't even want that level of publicness (though that's hardly more than the existing log), we could devise some system involving requests going by email to several admins, so that the decision is reviewed entirely offline, and the log merely shows requests and the timeliness of fulfilment (not even who, since that would leave contribs checkable for Clues). The board could, for instance, provide a list of Currently Online Admins (who are willing to deal with RevDel requests). Rd232 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

1. As proposer. Rd232 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Position 6: Oversight

Merge everything into WP:RFO, and have oversighters' mailing list deal with RevDel requests. The RFO page can present the "email admins directly" option, and leave the Oversight mailing list as a fallback. Rd232 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

As mentioned above, this is the only sane option. — Gavia immer (talk) 19:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep. ++Lar: t/c 14:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Sufficient consensus?

I think we have gotten sufficient consensus to create the noticeboard, so someone should go ahead and do it! Meanwhile, I'll be designing a header and editnotice in my userspace. Access Denied  00:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Well it's sufficient consensus for a draft to be helpful at this point; it may help overcome some reservations. Rd232 10:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

It's a little bit "cart before the horse", but those who oppose the board in principle seem to underestimate the range of design options available. Besides what I've already said above, you could design the board so that all that's seen publicly is a log of requests (with no useful information in the log, not even a link, least not whilst it's any use to non-admins). For example the log could be structured as "request number # sent by email to Admin Y at time such and such", and after deletion the admin responds on the board with a link so other admins can review. Or, if we didn't even want that level of publicness (though that's hardly more than the existing log), we could devise some system involving requests going by email to several admins, so that the decision is reviewed entirely offline, and the log merely shows requests and the timeliness of fulfilment. Rd232 14:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for something sufficiently clever to avoid BEANS issues, that actually gets coded, actually works, and actually diverts traffic away from ANI. Jclemens (talk) 22:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Should bots ever have reviewer rights?

I notice that some bots, such as XLinkBot (talk · contribs), have reviewer rights. This is inadvisable under the current configuration of the pending changes software, since it can result in the automatic acceptance of vandalism. Suppose that an article under the highest level of pending changes protection (accept=reviewer), is vandalized by user A. Subsequently, user B adds a prohibited external link, which is reverted by XLinkBot. The resulting revision, still containing the vandalism by user A, will be automatically accepted. (Also see the discussion of other automatic acceptance problems at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Design_flaw_in_pending_changes_protection.) Peter Karlsen (talk) 04:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I would think it would be the same with adminbots - do they need said bit to carry out whatever tasks they are set to do? –MuZemike 05:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any bots approved specifically to review edits. Peter Karlsen (talk) 05:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course, in most cases an unneeded user right won't do any harm in the absence of a malfunction, since the bot simply won't use it. But the reviewer right causes edits to be automatically accepted whether you like it or not; the sysop bit might result in unwanted editing of fully protected pages. Peter Karlsen (talk) 06:38, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

As the second operator of XLinkBot, I'd like to comment here. I have been thinking about that, and actually, I don't really know. In principle, it would not be different than, say, editor A is vandalising the page, but it goes unnoticed, and editor B, with an autoreview bit (but who does not care about it), is adding some info (and ignoring the 'there are pending changes'). Of course, the bot would not care by definition, and therefore the autoreview-right should be removed. Leaving the edit unreviewed would 'enforce' an individual check of both the 'new editor's edit' and the bot edit, to see whether the link might have been of use, or was really 'in violation' of WP:COPYRIGHT/WP:NOT/WP:EL/WP:SPAM/WP:COI.

On the other hand, most of the reverts by XLinkBot would revert back to a reviewed version, and therefore it would be great if the edits were autoreviewed (as otherwise it does give a lot of work). Maybe I should have a look into the data, and see if XLinkBot could actually detect whether the to-revert-to version is reviewed, and review automatically then, leaving it unreviewed if not. (P.S. for me .. I think it is better removed, and have no objection against removal). --Dirk Beetstra 08:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• When editing with the reviewer right, there's no choice to "detect whether the to-revert-to version is reviewed, and review automatically then, leaving it unreviewed if not": any revision produced as a result of the edit will be automatically accepted. Peter Karlsen (talk) 15:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
• I think if a page is reverted back to a previously reviewed version, no matter who reverted it, it is automatically reviewed and accepted. Could be wrong though. NW (Talk) 13:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • As far as I can tell from a quick perusal, XLinkBot doesn't use the rollback tool. It just loads the old revision's wikitext and saves. MediaWiki cannot tell that that is a rollback, and hence doesn't treat it any differently to any other ordinary edit in this regard. Uncle G (talk) 19:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that it works in this way. The revision of user A is not accepted because they, supposedly, do not have the 'autoreviewer' right. The revision of user B is not accepted either because the previous revision (of user A) is unaccepted. The revision of XLinkBot will not be accepted because the previous revision (of user B) is not approved. The undoing is actually not different from an ordinary edit. On the other hand if the edit of user B is rollbacked (to the revision of user A) as opposed to undone, the resulting revision will not be accepted as well, because the revision of user A is not accepted. This is my understanding. Ruslik_Zero 15:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Please see Misplaced Pages:Pending changes: all edits by reviewers are "visible immediately" (automatically accepted.) To prevent the inadvertent acceptance of vandalism, etc, when editing an unapproved version of a page, the edit form will display the following text: "The edit form below includes changes that have not yet been accepted." Bots not specifically designed to notice this language will simply proceed anyway, insensible to the potential problem. Furthermore, "reviewer" rights are very different from "autoreviewer" privileges, despite the similar names. Peter Karlsen (talk) 15:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
  • In the case you describe, don't you have to explicitly check the box to accept the revision? –xeno 15:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
    • You're right. It seems that I'm mistaken as to exactly how the PC protection works; the issue I'm describing won't actually arise. Peter Karlsen (talk) 16:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I've had a little look around. As far as I can see, a 'bot editing via api.php doesn't actually possess any way to check that particular checkbox when making an edit. It's simply not supplied as part of MediaWiki's editing functionality there. Uncle G (talk) 19:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
        • Okay, then it looks like any bot (which uses api.php) can safely be run with the reviewer right (and should be, for bots that edit quite frequently, to avoid creating a backlog of unreviewed revisions that differ from the last accepted revision only by a bot edit.) Peter Karlsen (talk) 00:31, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
        • The bot would have to use action=review if it wanted to mark its edit as reviewed. So yes, it can't check the "Accept the pending changes" checkbox, but it can get the same effect with little extra work if it really needs to. Anomie⚔ 16:29, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
• Ah, I see my confusion. XLinkBot is an autoreviewer .. and will not be anymore in a couple of secs. XLinkBot does not have botrights so that its edits do show up in the recent changes (both to catch real spammers on the fly, as well as keeping an eye on its reverts for various reasons). --Dirk Beetstra 16:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)strike that .. the bot is reviewer .. I am too confused, logging off and coming back tomorrow. --Dirk Beetstra 16:03, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Xeno asked me to comment here about User:DASHBotAV running with autoreviewer:

The bot has one job: To revert vandalism found in the article,file,category, and template space. I thought giving autoreviewership to anti-vandalism bots was standard procedure, but alas I could not find any policy page that verifies my suspission. I am neutral on this issue, and grant full permission for the bot to be de-autoreview-ed (gosh that's a mouthfull). Regards, Tim1357 03:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Based on my revised understanding of the technical aspects of flagged protection, that shouldn't be necessary; bots can safely be run with the reviewer right, since only modifications of previously approved revisions will be automatically reviewed. Peter Karlsen (talk) 13:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no point in giving a flagged bot "autoreviewer" (a.k.a. Autopatrolled), as flagged bots already have the autopatrol right. As noted above, the "autoreviewer" group has nothing to do with the "reviewer" group. Anomie⚔ 16:34, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Reinstatement of topic ban

Abd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was topic-banned from Cold fusion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) due to disruptive and tendentious editing, wall-of-text commentary and proxying for banned users. As soon as the topic ban expired he returned to all three, notably going to the Meta blacklist to request (again, after previous refusals) removal of banned user Jed Rothwell's site lenr-canr.org, which Abd misrepresents in the request as a "by-permission archive" despite it being pointed out in the past that some of the content is copyright Springer Verlag and they absolutely do not give permission for full text copies in third-party websites. The only evidence for the by-permission claim is the site owner, who has, to put it charitably, a vested interest in interpreting this elastically. It's his funeral if he gets a takedown, after all.

Cold fusion is a former FA which was demoted and subject to extended edit-warring by advocates of what is unquestionably regarded by the mainstream as an extreme fringe field. Abd paints himself now as an "expert" but this expertise is courtesy of the now-banned CF advocates Jed Rothwell and Pcarbonn, whose mission is to recast Misplaced Pages to reflect the field as they wish it to be rather than as it is. There is ongoing trivial research by minor parties but the supermajority view in the scientific community is that this is not just fringe but a pariah field due to the very highly publicised issues with the original paper in Nature and subsequent failure to reproduce results.

Having looked at Abd's involvement in this article it is crystal clear to me that the problems which led to his original topic ban have not been resolved, or even acknowledged, It's a question of wait until the timeout finishes and carry on as before. Nobody in the world has enough time to resist this insistent POV-pushing, so I propose that the topic ban be reinstated.

Abd's mission seems to be evangelistic rather than encyclopaedic. He's writing an article putting the pro-CF case at Wikiversity, that's where it should stay. His talk-page commentaries have always argued the primary case rather than the proper Misplaced Pages case per NPOV and UNDUE, and this is only partly IMO because NPOV mitigates against the relentless attempts of the CF lobby to swing the article to their POV; mainly he is a self-declared obsessive personality and has a bee in his bonnet about something he ahs come to believe is an unjustly vilified field. It does not seem to be posisble to get home the fact that it is not Misplaced Pages's job to fix that and using it to do so violates policy.

The debate goes on an on in the same form:

World+Dog: Abd, your endless commentary is impenetrable, takes too much time for anybody to read, and argues the primary case.

Abd: Yes, you're right, thanks, I will do somehting about that

Time passes during which Abd carries on exactly as before

Repeat ad nauseam.

The comments from NawlinWikiNuclearWarfare on Abd's talk page echo almost word for word the findings of the arbitration case. Nothing has changed. Nothing will change. Abd fundamentally does not believe he's doing anything wrong, and never has, despite topic and site bans. Guy (Help!) 21:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Completed after edit conflict and login

Thanks for signing this, JzG, I was thinking of filing an SSP report.... --Abd (talk) 22:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I urge that this report from an anonymous editor be ignored. The above is radically distorted. The charges are familiar, but I'm not going to accuse anyone of socking yet, but to respond to this would take a lot of words. Someone let me know if any registered editor signs up to support this, confirming and taking responsibility for charges, and I'll respond. Thanks. Briefly, however, all the above has been considered in depth and there has already been consensus formed, which I'm acting on. The pages that I linked were all whitelisted, I could not have added those links without it; that took an admin, who considered the arguments. This is beating a dead horse. --Abd (talk) 21:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)struck now-irrelevant text, added relevant text in brackets. --Abd (talk) 22:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Having perused the talk page at Cold Fusion, I see impenetrable walls of text posted by Abd. That, certainly, has not changed. → ROUX ₪ 22:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

To someone not interested in working on the topic, what I wrote, which was very much on point, and about improving the article, is going to seem like walls of text. However, I stopped that. Entirely. Roux, you were seeing what was there before certain users complained. Thanks. --Abd (talk) 22:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Abd, may I try to mediate this between you and Guy? I see that your involvement on Cold fusion is probably going to upset other editors. It would be a wise idea to go take up other interests. We have millions of articles. Why return to the scene of a very unpleasant dispute that went all the way to arbitration. Guy, could you supply diffs for the case you are making? Additionally, why is this here, rather than at requests for arbitration amendments? Jehochman 22:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

No mediation will help. This is not between me and Abd, it is between Abd and absolutely everybody who supports WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE and in doing so, necessarily, opposes his attempts to recast the article in a light more favourable to his banned friends' mission. Proxying for banned editors, returning to the behaviour that led to sanctions as soon as they expire, and dismissing criticism out of hand, are all hallmarks of Abd's long-term behaviour. This is not because Abd is a bad person, albeit that he is an incredibly vexing person to deal with, it's about long term civil POV-pushing, proxying for banned editors and constantly restating the same position regardless of how many times it's rebutted, as with the request for removal of the copyright-violating lenr-canr site at the Blacklist. The request is substantially identical to the previous rejected request and does not address in any way at all the criticism of the previous request, nor does it even acknowledge such criticisms as valid. It's like talking to a deaf person with their fingers in their ears changing "laa laa laa I can't hear you". I am ot active on these articles. There is nothing to mediate between us. Check NawlinWikiNuclearWarfare's comments on Abd's talk page, check previous AN and ANI debates. This is an editor whose problems are only resolved by excluding him from his hot-button topics, or fomr the project altogether. Guy (Help!) 22:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Guy, you appear to be upset. Is it the case that you feel very frustrated that all the time and effort that went into arbitrating the matter has resulted in a return to exactly the same situation that existed before with this article? Jehochman 22:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Point of information - it appears that the User talk:Abd comment Guy states was NawlinWiki was in fact NuclearWarfare... Is that correct? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Guy meant NuclearWarfare's recent request that Abd makes posts of 200 words at most. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:27, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Reviewing - Abd, it appears that (recent contribs) your contributions since the prior Arbcom topic ban expired on Sept 13 2010 have been either entirely or nearly entirely focused on Cold Fusion. All the other articles and editors talk pages related to this appear connected to the Cold Fusion topic. Do you generally agree with that statement? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I'm COI on the topic, am highly involved with it as a researcher and editor, and am following COI guidelines carefully. I'm disgusted with Misplaced Pages, in general, and so I'm not putting in much work, beyond a brief period, ending several days ago, where I did write a lot about problems with Cold fusion text. I do not edit the article anticipating controversy, unless I do so as a suggested edit, in which case I self-revert and discuss in Talk. I see that the links I added today were reverted by another editor who was previously sanctioned and banned from Cold fusion as well, for a time. I certainly won't revert him, but the issues he raised in removing them have been addressed before and I was following what I thought was established WP consensus; removals of these links survived only when not noticed. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Abd and JzG addressed JzG's POV involvement at Cold fusion and the spam blacklist and his abuse of admin tools; some of the damage has not yet been cleaned up. I was doing that today, because I'm aware of the history and the issues and the sources. I might be wasting my time, but I thought I could be helpful. --Abd (talk) 00:17, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Guy hasn't done anything there directly, nor abused admin capabilities in this go-around. He just reported here.

Abd, can you characterize what your recent (last 3 weeks-ish) edits have done, in terms of sources, approach to editing, and content you attempted to add, compared to the editing you were doing last year before the topic ban? Do you believe you are editing in a significantly different or more collaborative manner than you were previously? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Definitely. I now depend entirely on collaboration for anything that might be controversial, and I could point to examples. I also, by the way, know perhaps ten times as much about the topic as I did then, I understand the significance of sources (positive and negative) much better. I've pointed to reliable sources, as I'm supposed to do, as a COI editor. Arbitrators are aware of my activity. JzG did intervene, four times now, in this period, but this isn't about him, so I won't provide links. What occasioned today's report was an action remedying JzG's prior abuse, and he's continued it, only without using admin tools, just pushing the POV, including his POV about lenr-canr.org links, which has been rejected by the community when it's been considered. Jehochman knows some of the history, consider his remarks.... he filed RfAr/Abd and JzG, after it was clear that JzG wasn't going to back down after RfC/JzG 3.

By the way, what is this report doing on AN? If immediate admin action is needed, the boilerplate for this page suggests AN/I, but there is no emergency here, no revert warring, no major activity. I've seen JzG use AN like this before, to get a user banned for his POV -- it was that explicit, and it worked --, when there was no emergency at all. To my mind, this is a violation of ban policy, but, I do know, that's been ignored. The "community" is not "the community of administrators," even though some admins think of themselves as the community. --Abd (talk) 00:52, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Responding only to the venue question - Discretionary sanctions were enabled by Abd-WmC arbcom case and no timeout was set on those; also, AN is the preferred (though slightly less common than ANI) venue for community sanctions discussions. In this case, either an uninvolved administrator under discretionary sanctions could act, or the community could here. Whether it's warranted is up to the discussion etc. I respect JzG but we certainly won't to anything just on his say-so while he's self-admittedly emotionally responding to something. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, GWH, I hadn't thought of it that way. This is a problem: there has been misbehavior by a number of editors at Cold fusion, and it got very much worse just a few days ago, when some former editors with problematic histories returned. Those editors are not COI, AFAIK, but they are quite unrestrained and are clearly pushing a POV, and strongly. Ideally, what I'd like to see is some neutral admins who will watch Cold fusion and Talk:Cold fusion with an eye to arbitration enforcement, and I'd be happy to discuss that, but this isn't a good place for it. Let this be a request for such administrative oversight, it could do a great deal of good. --Abd (talk) 02:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll go out on a limb here. I think it would be less stressful for all concerned if Abd avoided the cold fusion area as long as he's engaged in primary research on the topic. It is challenging to be so involved, and yet maintain the necessary detachment and objectivity required for Misplaced Pages editing. Some editors can do it, but because of the history here, I think it wiser for Abd to avoid the entire area. Would you agree to that, Abd? We have millions of other editing opportunities. I'd really like to see an outcome where all sides agree and part ways, rather than having this matter return to arbitration where I feel the result will be a lot less friendly. Jehochman 00:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, Jehochman, that would be fine for me, but lousy for the project. No, I'm far more interested in cold fusion than I am in Misplaced Pages. It's really up to the community whether it wants experts editing, and COI editors are generally expert or at least more expert than the large majority of users. WP:COI appears to encourage COI editors to participate in Talk. This is a widespread problem, it is by no means confined to me and Cold fusion. Experts tend to get banned even when they follow COI guidelines, because Randy in Boise doesn't like to be corrected.

Suit yourself, folks. I'm just an advisor now, and you are free to ignore my advice. At your own risk of loss. You have an article which is massively deficient in many respects, compared to what is available (on all sides!) in reliable sources. You have many other problems, with many other articles, but I'm not necessarily expert in them, and it's way too much work. Try to figure out how to get experts involved, and protect them, if you want better content in such areas.

From what I've seen of JzG recently, though, the project might be better off if this does, indeed, go back to ArbComm. I didn't provoke him, I just did what I knew to do, and none of it will I repeat. What he's done with me, he's done with others (and that, in fact, is how I became aware of the problem with his work). Someone, please, give him some good advice. I see you trying, Jehochman. You are also trying to give me good advice, but you don't understand my motives (just as you might not understand his, I suspect. Or maybe you do.) --Abd (talk) 01:05, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Abd reports here a clear conflict of interest. Abd is motivated to encourage interest and activity in the subject. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

No. Actually, Misplaced Pages is a distraction from what I need to do. Could be a mistake on my part. I gain nothing by advising the editors here. I have a business, indeed, but that business could actually be hurt by a better Misplaced Pages article. Long story, I won't explain here, but someone can ask me on my Talk if this seems mysterious. In any case, we expect COI editors to "push" a POV, that's why they are restricted, but supposedly we also encourage them to advise in Talk, providing sources, and reviewing content (if you imagine that it's possible to write good encyclopedia science content without understanding the subject, you've been dreaming and it might be time to wake up.) --Abd (talk) 01:05, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

We do need to be clear with you about something:

It's not "all COI editors" or "all expert editors" - Most editors are experts in things we have Misplaced Pages articles on, and conflicts of interest with some topic or topics. Some are particular experts, in the sense of technical or scientific or being a professor or industry recognized person or some sort, for example.

Very few of those people ever come up for ANI review, much less Arbcom review, much less multiple Arbcom cases or multiple Arbcom sanctions. You are in very rare company to have been so focused on in your career here. This is not a good thing.

I don't prejudge whether you are in the right or not on the particulars this time around. However - you should not and can not hide behind the shield of being an expert. If you believe that you are entitled to do so or that you should be able to act in different ways on the article because you are, you are wrong, and acting in a manner to place your editing status in danger.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:00, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

GWH, the fuss arises because there are certain editors who have aligned around certain topics, and some of them have consistently acted to harass and seek the ban of editors with whom they disagree. What have I done that is a violation of policy or guidelines? I'm not generally acting on the article, except tentatively, occasionally, without even 1RR of others. The bulk of my article edits have been accepted, I think. What I've said about "shield" should apply to all those who claim expertise and who follow COI guidelines, not just me. --Abd (talk) 02:10, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I realized that GWH may have a misunderstanding. I had no connection with cold fusion at the beginning of 2009 when I became aware of certain abusive blacklistings, those later covered at RfAr. This was not my "career." However, I started to read the article and look at the sources, and, because I knew some of the history -- I believed Cold fusion had been conclusively rejected -- and I had the physics and chemistry background to understand the issues, I became interested, bought most of the major books on the topic (skeptical and otherwise), and started to work on the article. I came under attack for that, as others had before. Eventually, with about two dozen editors yelling at me, long story, I was topic banned for a year. As I saw this coming, I decided to pursue my interest in cold fusion. I was a Misplaced Pages editor first, and one of my special concerns had been administrative abuse, I took two cases to ArbComm; in one case the admin was "admonished" -- JzG -- and in the other the admin lost his bit. So while I'm currently, in effect, an SPA, I have not always been so. It was cultivated. --Abd (talk) 03:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• It makes no sense that Abd is allowed to continue in essentially the same behavior for which he has been sanctioned repeatedly, simply because the most recent sanction has expired. It should not take another ArbCom case to deal with this. It should be a simple, straightforward administrative action. Problematic behavior is identified repeatedly → sanctions are applied → sanctions expire → problem recurs → ? Of course, Abd also continues to view his ArbCom cases as vindications, so this outcome should surprise no one. We need to make a clean break here - Abd can go off to promote cold fusion through the proper channels, and we can have a break from this constant misuse of Misplaced Pages to promote cold fusion. MastCell  03:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• I haven't been "promoting cold fusion." Period. I've been describing on Talk, the state of the field, as shown in what is supposedly our gold standard for sourcing, peer-reviewed secondary sources. There are sixteen reviews of the field, reliable secondary sources, all positive, over the last five years, in mainstream peer-reviewed publications, and there is no such review that confirms the original reasons for rejection, which have all been answered. You would not see this from our article, because every time such a review has appeared, it's been excluded on arguments of "fringe" and "undue weight." I've proposed changes consistent with COI policy.

• From the article, one would think that there is no evidence for cold fusion, it's all just "pathological science," pursued by "fanatics," no theories have been proposed that are anything more than "ad hoc," and what was clearly a blatant bureaucratic error, easy to verify as such, is what the article still gives as the critical heat/helium finding, not what is actually in peer-reviewed reliable secondary sources. (Cold fusion always produces helium, in the right amount, from measured excess heat, to be fusion. No heat, no helium.) The strongest source to date: Status of cold fusion (2010) published in Naturwissenschaften this month. I know what the pseudoskeptics here are saying about this: biology journal. It's not. It's Springer-Verlag's "flagship multidisciplinary journal," covering all the "natural sciences," including physics and chemistry, and cold fusion is cross-disciplinary. And there is reliable source on that, very explicit..

• Yes, the ArbComm cases were vindications of certain things (what I filed them over!), and not of others. In particular, ArbComm tends to shoot the messenger, and generally to follow a community that does the same. Given what I've seen in the three weeks or so since my topic ban expired, it is useless for me to advise Misplaced Pages, which is what I, as a declared COI editor, was doing, in full respect of the COI policy, and with my knowledge of the WP guidelines and policies on content and sourcing. Those policies are routinely being violated, and admins like MastCell don't care, they allow blatant NPOV violations -- such as the statement filed here by JzG, following his long-term push on cold fusion -- and they don't protect those who point it out. Hence it is useless for me to work here, the help is not wanted, there is no protection for expert advice.

• Because of the damage long done by abusive bans, if I'm banned or blocked, based on what's come down here -- where no violations of policy were alleged, nothing blockworthy or properly bannable -- I will appeal, but it's not a task I look forward to, nor do I have any attachment to outcome.

• MastCell has long been part of the problem, though certainly not the worst. I'm glad I won't have to deal with him any more. I wasn't sanctioned for what JzG accused me of. Nor was Pcarbonn, whose editing on Talk:Cold fusion was also brought here to AN, for ban, by JzG with no disclosure of his own history. JzG, in effect, if not in intention, lied, in both cases, presenting "evidence" that with any caution he'd know was deceptive,. But he knows people will often buy it, and the most he's gotten of sanction is a slap on the wrist, so he's continued. This is what Misplaced Pages built. I want no more part of it. --Abd (talk) 14:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any significant change in behaviour and just a repeat of previous problems. Moreover, while Abd is a COI editor, I don't think we should warp the debate by referring to him as a expert, he's a hobbyist who's read some books (as far as I can determine, someone correct me if I'm wrong) and swops emails with other fringe figures. This is not a debate about expert editors because as far as I can tell he's not a expert - he's just some guy with some books and a lot of time on his hands. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

JzG is constantly flogging the horse (live or dead?) that the blacklisted site is allegedly engaging in copyright violations, where it's his word against the site operator who denies this. If the site is in fact a pirate site, why hasn't it received a takedown notice in the years since it began posting the papers in question? Is it Misplaced Pages's role to aggressively enforce against alleged copyright violations that the copyright owners themselves aren't pursuing? *Dan T.* (talk) 18:35, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Within the collapse above, there is a link to a review paper published by Springer-Verlag, a publisher of many of the papers hosted at lenr-canr.org. You can see in the first-page image they provide for free, a link to lenr-canr.org, very prominent, as a place to read conference papers on the topic of cold fusion. This is often the only place where they may be read, but they are cited in the review paper, which makes them notable, in fact. Does anyone here seriously imagine that Springer-Verlag is not aware of the many journal papers published by them which are hosted in some form on lenr-canr.org? Lenr-canr.org often comes up at the top for specific searches for these papers. If the publishers are not aware of copyvios, they would be extraordinarily inattentive! Here they are publishing a link to the site, prominent, the first article page in their "flagship multidisciplinary journal."

Rather, what's happened is that editors here have assumed copyvio, out of a simple assumption of bad faith, a libel against Jed Rothwell. I.e., a phony legal problem is asserted, creating a possibly real legal problem, if Jed were to be inclined to sue. (He's not.) Last time I noticed, Jed was living, and BLP policy applies to all pages on Misplaced Pages. But these people don't really care about Misplaced Pages, they just use whatever policy suits their purposes at the moment. Imagine this level of attention given to all links on Misplaced Pages! It's happening here only because of POV, and that is visible in who has removed the links when they were used. I'm finished with this. Way too much work, and too little support. But thanks, DTobias, it's appreciated.

The links which were just removed by ScienceApologist from Cold fusion were all approved by an admin as being acceptable. The copyright arguments had been raised and rejected, for these papers, the whitelisting that allowed me to add these papers makes that obvious. Foolish me, I thought that all the prior discussion meant that these would be okay even though I'm COI. But now that someone has objected, even if it is SA, I certainly won't do that again!

And I just noticed this where JzG is fat and happy that the three main advocates of this content, Abd, Jed Rothewell and Pcarbonn, are all indefinitely topic banned, and yet again raises the copyright issue. Jed Rothwell was never actually banned, he abandoned his account, and no community discussion ever banned him. Rather, JzG declared a ban, unilaterally, and blocked some IP. Two of the IPs blocked were definitely not Jed, but ... JzG sees any content that he thinks is pro-cold fusion POV as being Jed Rothwell or a meat puppet. Pcarbonn is under some kind of ban, never properly closed, length not stated, in the report based on an AN report filed by ... JzG. However, the closer, FuturePerfect, notified Pcarbonn of an indef ban. There had been no clear consensus at AN, and FuturePerfect had argued for the ban, so the close wasn't neutral. I was under a topic ban at the time,one year, not "indefinite." When Pcarbonn's topic ban had expired, something like December, and he returned to editing the Talk page, JzG acted to get him banned, and he knows how to stir up the pitchforks and tar and feathers. When I came off the topic ban, the same, and the same report here. It's blatant. Now, who will do something about this? I'm not holding my breath. Jehochman waved his hands a bit, he wants everyone to be nice, which I sympathize with and I was actually hoping for that, but ... it's not what happened! I was promptly attacked. By the same old same old. I'm starting to sense that I may need to do something about this. And, against that, my better judgment, that it's useless, Misplaced Pages has gone too far down the tubes. You know, reading that AN report, JzG lied again and again, and it would be easy to show.... When I preparing RfC/JzG 3, I found the source of his enmity for Pcarbonn, and it is echoed in the AN report. And, reviewing this and the long-term behavior, it is conclusive proof of serious POV-pushing through misrepresenting sources, the kind of stuff that can sometimes get ArbComm's attention.... --Abd (talk) 19:50, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. If we knowlingly link to a website hosting copyright infrigements we are just as guilty as the site that hosts the material, and policy reflects this. It isn't acceptable to break the law just because you haven't been caught. Hut 8.5 19:13, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

That is correct, Hut 8.5. But you've misunderstood the issue. It is not our job to enforce copyright compliance on other sites. Rather, the key word in what you wrote is "knowingly." Prosecution for such would be rare, but it is possible. All prosecution for this has, in fact, been for egregious violations. But we draw the line at positive evidence, if it's known.

What's missed is that we have no obligation at all to verify the copyright status of some other site, and if you think about it, this would place an impossible burden on Misplaced Pages. What would the proof consist of? What is clear about lenr-canr.org is that, if there are any copyvios there, they are relatively few. And the policy does cover this, it is quite clear. Perhaps people should read it! It has been attempted to add a verification of permission requirement to the policy, and it was shot down, for obvious reasons, I'm sure. But it lives on, with POV-pushers who wish to exclude sites that They Don't Like.

We don't have to check every site for copyright problems before we link there, no, but this doesn't mean that if we are aware of such problems we should ignore them. Even if a prosecution over something like this is unlikely or difficult that doesn't mean Misplaced Pages can take part in illegal or immoral behaviour. Hut 8.5 20:45, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

• It does look as if Abd has been repeating the same behaviour that got him topic banned in the first place. This is a bad sign, as topic bans should act as an indication that an editor needs to change their practices, and not as a temporary break. Hut 8.5 19:13, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

And that "behavior" is? Not lying down and playing dead? What? Have you actually read the finding on the topic ban? I'm acting very differently than then. So what's the common factor? Read the report above. The common factor is an allegation of a POV. This, like other bans at Cold fusion is an attempted POV ban, of an editor who was following COI policy, which requires discussion, giving advice on Talk. It's that simple.

By the way, I am not editing Misplaced Pages any more, unless I get some indication from the community that it wants me to, and there has been too little of that to allow me to continue. I'm under personal attack here, which is why I'm responding, and I will continue to do that as long as it's permitted. You don't like these responses, advise those filing personal attacks to stop, don't blame the attempted victim. --Abd (talk) 20:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

So to clarify, you will stop editing Misplaced Pages altogether once this thread is closed and nobody talks about you? Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, that was the plan. However, I also wrote that if banned, I'd appeal, and the reason for that is the protection of future editors from abusive bans. I will remind readers that I took two cases to ArbComm as an originating party, successfully, and that I'm permitted to do that, still, I'm not banned from it. I was thinking it wasn't worth it. I still don't know if it's worth it, but what I've been seeing is certainly adding to my motivation. I was thinking that this might quiet down and stop, and that I'd simply disappear. My conclusion was that Misplaced Pages was hopeless as to getting the attention that Cold fusion might need. I'm COI, I could do nothing without cooperation. So, my conclusion, useless. I'll build resources elsewhere, much easier, the boulder doesn't roll down the hill every day. However, there is another thing to consider. What JzG did to me he did to others, before, and, indeed, that's how I became involved. And it's not just JzG.

Anyway, is there any more dead horse beating to be done here? --Abd (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

You were topic banned for tendentious editing and a problematic style of communication. In my opinion those problems have not gone away, and stating that opinion does not constitute a "personal attack". If it did then it would be impossible to enforce policies concerning disruptive editors. COI has nothing to do with it and it is still possible for an editor to be disruptive even if they only edit talk pages. Hut 8.5 20:45, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll document the "personal attack" claim. Hu, he's not only done this to me, he's done it to others. He lies, and shallow commentators like you just fall for it. That this happens on Misplaced Pages as much as it does is a structural problem, and nothing is being done about it, nor do I see any hope that anything will be done about it, which is why I'm bailing, overall. --Abd (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Reinvoking topic ban as general sanction

Abd, I just re-reviewed the developments here and on the meta.wiki spam blacklist thread.

It is clear to me that between the two pages, you have returned to the behavior you were previously sanctioned for. I AGF - I think you think you're doing a good and reasonable thing here, but in my judgement as an uninvolved administrator you're reverting to the exact same behavior and unrepentant and inappropriately righteous about doing so.

I am reimposing the topic ban as a general sanction, as authorized by Arbcom. I will log to your talk page and the Arbcom case enforcement page. I will link diffs for those here when done. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:25, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Diffs for User talk:Abd and Abd-WmC Arbcom case. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I concur. Without having followed the backstory, Abd's comments above are pretty clear: "I'm far more interested in cold fusion than I am in Misplaced Pages." If so, ABD, you should focus on what you are interested in, and a topic ban will allow you to do so.  Sandstein  21:42, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. So much for caring about Misplaced Pages, Sandstein. That's why I'm not caring myself, people like you stopped caring and fell into running a private club. I'll benefit from the ban, I have no doubt about it. Don't worry about me. Worry about the project, which is sliding, and, when the faction I confronted is active, NPOV goes out the window. Look at the filing here. This Guy is an admin. Is that conduct appropriate for an admin? He lied to you, Sandstein, and to the rest of us. And, yet, I'm the problem? Sure I am. For people like him and far too many of you. --Abd (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I had a chat with Abd earlier on and expressed the hope that he wouldn't repeat old mistakes. Well, those ancient errors have resurfaced in full array. --TS 23:24, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

What happened, Tony, is that the same people who worked very hard to get me banned before -- remember when two-thirds of commentors at RfC/JzG 3 were screaming for me to be banned, when what I'd done was file an RfC with evidence fully accepted by ArbComm later -- simply ran the same numbers, and continued the same very obvious and outrageous POV-pushing. They tolerate "fringe editors" who don't know how to find the sources and to point out policy, but someone like me, even though all I was doing was pointing to sources and to an obvious understanding of the field, obvious to anyone who knows it and who knows the sources, is really a threat. I was warned that I'd be banned as soon as I dared to edit again. Even though I followed COI rules meticulously.

As an uninvolved administrator, I fully support the reinstatement of all prior ARBCOM-sanctions related to this user. Sanctions are meant to alter behavior, the prior sanctions did not, so they need to be reinstated. It is as simple as that. --Jayron32 03:09, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• From this venue, the Community usually considers + enacts its own sanctions or it considers appeals of ones imposed under ArbCom remedies. In this case, the Community is doing a combination of both - it was considering imposing a sanction and it's reviewing one imposed under ArbCom remedies which Abd was going to appeal (which Abd would've been required to appeal here before going to ArbCom). If there is support for this sanction, it would be appropriate for the restrictions to be imposed concurrently as a Community topic ban (logged at WP:RESTRICT). Accordingly, as with all sanction discussions, please state your level of involvement when commenting in this section. Thank you, Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:58, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
• As a somewhat involved admin (noing on Cf, but prior positive and negative interactions with AbD), I think that we should reinstate sanctions. The nature and scope of and,s actions are nearly identical to the actions which drew sanction in the first place. We don't need to re-litigate this in order to come to a decision. Protonk (talk) 20:57, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

A decision has already been made, Protonk. An admin intervened under the discretionary sanctions re Cold fusion. This is better than the older ban because there is a supervising admin, who seems like a fair sort. We'll see if it is necessary to escalate this, it might not be necessary. How about not beating a dead horse? --Abd (talk) 23:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I musta missed the archive box. Protonk (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Metawiki role

As an aside - Abd asked on his talk page what role his participation in the metawiki spam blacklist played in the topic ban, given that that's a separate external wiki and neither en.wikipedia admins nor Arbcom have authority over metawiki per se (which is correct).

As I have responded in more detail on Abd's talk page , though that behavior is out of scope for our administrative activities here, it does form part of a picture of what Abd's current overall behavioral attitude is regarding Cold fusion topics and Misplaced Pages as a whole. It was brought to all of our attention as part of Guy's filing and further discussed by Abd. That discussion formed part of the total picture of Abd's ongoing behavior that in my mind merited the topic ban being reinstated, along with edits he made to the Cold Fusion talk page after this AN discussion began, user talk page edits, and the conversation here.

I do not believe that it's wrong to take note of external issues as they bear directly into english Misplaced Pages ongoing operations and content issues (as the metawiki spam blacklist does) nor as they bear directly into a users' overall behavior and attitude (as Abd's behavior did here). It is somewhat unusual for it to come up, though, so him asking about it and my explaining it is a reasonable question, and I'll answer any additional reasonable questions raised here or his talk page from it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)+

Perhaps JzG needs a sanction too?

Unfortunately, Abd's obsessiveness on the topic of cold fusion provides what might be justification for the topic bans he has received; however, he is not the only obsessive involved in the related debates. JzG, in particular, appears to have an obsession with ensuring Abd is stopped from editing and the sites he likes are blacklisted, which is of a magnitude similar to Captain Ahab's obsession with finding Moby Dick. Perhaps a topic ban for him from any discussions pertaining to Abd or lenr-canr.org is justified? *Dan T.* (talk) 23:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Dan. You made nine edits since June, most of them on articles, then you show up here and make two comments attacking JzG for raising legitimate concerns. That's okay, and nothing wrong with it. Except, well, doesn't that mean JzG is your Moby-Dick, according to your perception of how these things work? --TS 23:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I will document either here or elsewhere the egregious lies that JzG told here and in other fora. I will start with due process on this, I've asked GWH some questions on my Talk page, and I'll determine where to go from there. It's very serious. I took JzG up to ArbComm before, and I've just been provided with a fast track, he will be a party again, and this time, we'll see if ArbComm, which warned him before, is so lenient. I'd suggest looking at RfAr/Abd and JzG. Sure, ArbComm dinged me for my style. However, the biggest complaint was that I didn't take it through dispute resolution quickly enough. If the project continues to tolerate what came down here (and with Pcarbonn before), it's dead, at least as any kind of neutral encyclopedia is concerned. It's neutral only when and where people like JzG don't sink their teeth into it. --Abd (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Regarding JzG - I don't see a problem personally but when I have imposed a sanction on one party in a multiparty dispute of some sort and not the other one, and it's raised back up, I ask for additional uninvolved third-party admin review. I would encourage other admins to review Guy's conduct and comment here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I am not an admin and I have not looked specifically at the recent events. But in an earlier case to which this one looks superficially very similar, JzG went to great lengths, including misrepresenting facts and then refusing to communicate when it was pointed out, in order to keep a convenience link out of the Martin Fleischmann article. Up till then I had thought that JzG really cares about BLP. But in that instance he fought with unfair means just to make it harder for readers to read Fleischmann's own account of his fall into disgrace. If he is trying the same stunt again now (as I said I haven't checked this), then a sanction would be more than appropriate. See Talk:Martin Fleischmann/Archive 1 for the previous incident, which unfortunately was a very chaotic discussion. (In the end JzG lost because he was verifiably wrong, but that's hard to see.) Hans Adler 01:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposal for efficiency

GWH, thanks. (And thanks as well to Hans Adler.) I've made some serious charges about JzG, and I see that Hans has confirmed a piece of them (JzG continued that behavior with lenr-canr.org in other places, including, most recently, at meta in the place cited by GWH). However, this is probably not the best venue to consider them.

If GWH persists with his ban (I can see why he'd think this ban appropriate, and I was banned for so long -- way over a year -- that a bit more time is trivial), then I have a fast track to ArbComm, and I assume that I'd raise the underlying issues, which ArbComm did address before. JzG, among other misrepresentations, hasn't told the true story of my ban and the basis for it, and this is what he also did with Pcarbonn in January. So, GWH, if you see the basis for some kind of restriction for JzG, you can issue it, under the same discretionary sanctions as you applied to me. You could also do that later, after more review of the evidence, or you can do it temporarily, pending review. I'm fine for this to close as-is and we can continue, you and I, discussing the ban to see if ArbComm can be avoided. Let's keep it simple.

I'm not big on banning anyone, but I'm not so happy when editors try to ban others because they disagree with them. --Abd (talk) 18:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Request for a community topic ban of User:Tao2911 from Eido Tai Shimano and related pages

I first came upon this editor as a result of a post to the WP:BLPN in June 2010. Having tried hard, I now believe that this editor is a not net contributor to this article or related ones. User:Tao2911;s edits shown the classic signs disruptive editors. Many editors have noted the repeated problems with NPOV and violations of BLP policy. Since June 2010, the editor has been attempting to insert poorly sourced negative material into the biography of a living person Eido Tai Shimano. His edits have been the subject of multiple postings to the BLPN and reliable sources noticeboard by different editors; July 2010 July 2010 July 2010 July 2010 August 2010 September 2010

The editor's conduct has been discussed on ANI in July 2010 and previously for issues related to other articles. The editor has been warned on their talkpage about personal attacks,"point violations", BLP violations and edit warring.

Of particular concern is their disregard for our BLP and V policies. S/he has used poor sourcing (e.g. blogs) but more worringly has repeatedly inserted material that are not in the citations given.(see ). Their edits are also slanted and breach NPOV standards. e.g.. Editwarring against multiple editors to protect their preferred version has also occurred on multiple occasions (see the article logs for September/October for example ) In addition to the article related problems, Tao2911 attacks other editors, accusing them of vandalism, being "pro-Shimano fascist sexist trolls" bias, whitewashing and censorship, and has made disruptive, point making edits.

Besides the examples given above, the most recent edits are a case in point. Recently returned from an edit warring block, Tao2911 has, without any discussion as requested and commenced on the talkpage to delete sourced information that had been agreed to by editors on the talkpage, and more problematically still, to insert negative false material (in that it is contradicted by the citations given) :ie in this edit s/he adds "some of" to the sentence about Shimano's denials of allegations of sexual misconduct, a limitation not found in the sources given. This has been reverted, quite correctly, by another editor. In July User:EyeSerene explained that this kind of problematic, tendentious editing, especially on a BLP might eventually lead to sanctions.. Several other editors have asked for restrictions on Tao2911 I think we've tried long enough to help this editor learn the kind of standards (editorially and behaviourally) required on WP and especially a BLP article. It appears the editor is able to make useful contributions on other articles, and indeed one they have edited Adi Da was recently made a Good Article. However, the time has come for Tao2911 to be topic banned from this page and from any related pages that deal with Shimano, though perhaps others have other ideas. Slp1 (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Slp1 gives a fair summary of events, and I concur with his request. I first visited the Shimano page after discovering it through WP:BLPN. Not knowing the history, at first I was sympathetic towards Tao's position. However, his disinclination to discuss things reasonably quickly changed that opinion. I am disturbed not only by what seems to me to be a tendency to accuse others of conspiracy when others disagree with him, but also by the pattern of highly tendentious editing. In Tao's absence, reasonable progress was made toward a consensus on this contentious article. That progress has been nullified by his edits and comments. His edits to Shimano are routinely improper per the BLP rules, and his interactions are difficult to perceive as good-faith discussions. It's definitely time for something more than a slap on the wrist, especially given Tao's history, as summarized above by Slp1. In my opinion, Tao's primary contribution to the Shimano page has been to unite opposing editors—through disbelief at his actions. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 18:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

After Slp1 summary and macwhiz statement I do not have much to add. While discussing matters in Shimano talk page, as well as in BLPN or RSN, I was struck by the manners of Tao and they way he responds to me and other editors. By now all of us, involved in editing this page, reached limit and it does not look we can find a way to cooperate with him. There is a consistent pattern in the way Tao is sabotaging efforts of others, who try to make this page balanced and complete. I support the request for banning Tao2911 from editing this and related pages. Spt51 (talk) 02:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I got involved after seeing the issue raised at various noticeboards as detailed by Slp1 above, and have intermittently followed events since July. I have seen numerous examples confirming that Tao2911 will not understand basic procedures regarding a WP:BLP and sources. Reading various news reports makes it obvious what a Buddhist teacher has been doing for many years, but reliable reports use quite mild language, while Tao2911 would prefer something more direct. I endorse Slp1's statement above, and if no better solution can be found, I support a topic ban. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Simple move

Can someone please G6 All the Women I Am so I can move All the Women I Am (album) to it? The qualifier isn't needed; the author doesn't know how to overwrite redirects. If I didn't ask here, it'd probably take about a month before someone got around to doing the G6 deletion. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 02:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Ha. I just went to move it (which effects the G6 automatically) but it seems HJ Mitchell had already G6'd it. Either way, consider it done. I've fixed one double redirect.--Mkativerata (talk) 02:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that we have a wonderful separate noticeboard for this kind of requests at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. Whenever you're in need of page-moving fun, it's better to place a request there than on this general noticeboard. Jafeluv (talk) 20:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism and pending revisions

I have a quick question concerning how to handle vandalism within a "pending revision". Obviously, in a case of vandalism the pending revision should not be accepted. Under those circumstances, is it still correct to issue the standard escalating warning to the user who attempted to vandalize an article (I use Twinkle for doing this), or is some other warning type more appropriate? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes don't modify vandalism warnings. If it's so egregious I would have blocked without a warning, I will continue to do so despite the fact that some Misplaced Pages users were prevented from seeing the vandalism. Jclemens (talk) 17:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism is vandalism, even if it's, shall we say... say... nevermind, I can't come up with a good analogy... Either way, it's non-constructive, it's against policy, and vandalism to PC-protected articles should be reverted and the user warned, just like any other vandal. The Thing // Talk // Contribs 17:42, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you both for the advice. I will continue to apply warnings as I did before the introduction of "pending revisions". -- Scjessey (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Y'all should also probably update this. Steveozone (talk) 03:44, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Backlog at WP:AIV

Hi! There is a backlog of two hours, in some cases, over at WP:AIV. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 06:58, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Unbacklogged. T. Canens (talk) 07:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

AfD / redirect issue

Someone has turned the Revelations redirect page, which used to and should redirect to Revelation (disambiguation), into an Iron Maiden song stub. The Revelations page is now up for AfD, so I don't believe anyone can just change it back to a redirect since that would wipe the AfD notice (right?)

What's the right way to fix this? I apologize if this is not the right place to ask this. 28bytes (talk) 12:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The AfD seems to be heading towards a redirect, so I'd just wait it out. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 13:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• I've split out the new revisions pertaining to the song and merged them with Revelations (Iron Maiden song). The AFD will continue regarding that page. The OP is slightly inaccurate however: prior to the redirect becoming an article it redirected to Revelation; after the history split, it now points there again. I have no opinion on which target is better. –xeno 14:08, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks Xeno. 28bytes (talk) 14:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Defining the use and scope of "Incivility" (Terminology of the British Isles)

Can someone firstly tell where how and where the "best" place is to appeal, and have removed, the terms of a sanction?

Cheers. Secondly, I want to discuss a serious policy matter which related to this.

In the terms of the sanction place on me and Triton rocker is about a disputes over the Terminology of the British Isles. The admin Cailil has used the term "persistent incivility" and "assumptions of bad faith" for both of us. What he really means and is is banning us from is discussiing the national identity or nationalist POV of the other editors involved in this dispute - Not "incivility".

I am concern about this because the word or policy is being use to hide a different meaning.

The disputes about the terminology of the British Isles are definitely being influenced by nationalist interests - it has been going on for a long time. We need "good faith" but we also and to be realistic it. We need to be able to discuss it where it might effect content and editorsæ motivations. These sanctions are just a kind of censorship from doing so. Many of us have point out that the sanctions are completely onesided.

It is true to say that I strongly believe the motivations for the removal of the term British Isles from the Misplaced Pages by HighKing and other Irish editors are not logical or sincere and are nationalistically motivated. We need to be able to discuss this seriously without being blocked all the time. "Britain and Ireland", which is what they want to use, cannot be used to mean "British Isles" because the British Isles also include other islands with their own independent governments and identity.

They want to use Britain and Ireland to make Ireland equal I suppose - I accept that - but they are confusing two different uses of the terminology. It creates problems because it removes the same rights for the Isle of Man and Channel Island which are part of the British Isles and British history. They are not part of Britain and Ireland. We cannot list all 4 nations every time. "British" in British Isles is not the same as the "adjective form" Britain as in Great Britain.

The sanction was rapidly pushed through by Cailil, who is coincidentally also Irish, when both Triton rocker and I could not respond to it in anyway because we had been blocked see, sanction. Practically the only people commenting on it were those same editors we are talking about. It was also prejudiced by what was then an ongoing sockpuppet investigation Sockpuppet investigations LevenBoy which has since cleared me complete.

Because of this, I think the sanctions and the terms are wrong and unfair. --LevenBoy (talk) 23:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

• Well, TR's was completely correct; a complete inability to stay within the grounds of a sanction doubled with incivility to boot. LB, I will have a look at your case, but it's half midnight here now, so it may not be until tomorrow. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

If you look at TR's behaviour he was perfectly "civil" with others. He just had the wrong, perhaps too British, sense of humour.

You are talking about something else entirely which was "your indefinite ban" to stop him adding the term British Isles to any page. I think we should question it too. The sanction being applied is completely different and even more far reaching. It is an identical censorship to me. He was also blocked during Cailil pushing through his sanction and I think he should be allowed to join this discussion. --LevenBoy (talk) 23:52, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Didn't this already undergo review on ANI? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:00, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

(answering self) Yes, on Oct 3rd - Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive642#Inappropriate sanctions imposed on Triton Rocker and LevenB, filed by a SPA, review finding was that the sanctions were appropriate. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:03, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually GWH this went in front of ANi before that again for community approval in the first instance. When that ANi thread closed with only LemonMonday (that same WP:SPA account who already had this reviewed on 3/10/10) objecting I imposed the community's decision. Also the sanction is for persistent incivility and persistent failure to assume good faith as stated and as defined in policy--Cailil 00:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

For ease of reference the block and the civility parole discussion for LevenBoy was precipitated by this edit which was preceded by a warning for this one (warning issued by TFOWR). That warning came days after LB had been blocked for incivility for these edit and this one made after users were asked not to comment on this page (these offending edits were made after 4 earlier instances of disruption with 4 warnings - that particular issue is explained here)--Cailil 01:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• LevenBoy, some of your comments seem to be contributing to a battleground atmosphere (for example, "You are talking total bullshit and I've reverted your vandalism - and that is what it is. If you revert again I'll take it to AN/I." or " At the risk of being snipped, the raft of lame excuses given above for not changing to British Isles is plumbing new depths. It's all quite deplorable. In the past the so-called pro-BI editors have routinely been accused of stonewalling. Well we now know what real stonewalling is.") If you heeded the multiple warnings to avoid making inappropriate comments, and avoided such remarks, there would be no civility sanction imposed on you at this time; this is a collaborative project and your comments need to be in synch with that. When you're trying to make a point about a content issue, you can and should make the point without personalizing it or turning the area into a battlefield.
• In other words, it's not your content position which this sanction is asking you to consider changing; it's your conduct approach to this topic area which you need to consider changing. The restriction does not "muzzle" or "censor" you from contributing to the area; it restricts you to making comments that are within the spirit and letter of Misplaced Pages policies (without letting you take detours). If you are unwilling/unable to conduct yourself in accordance with these, you will find yourself blocked, so an alternative would be to find an area where you will be willing/able: contribute to that area until such a time that you'll avoid making inappropriate remarks. However, if you can already conduct yourself appropriately and in accordance with the site's policies in this topic/area, and you wish to continue contributing to this topic/area, then demonstrate that in your contributions and you won't be in violation of your sanction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

A number of the contributors here seem to be missing the point. That point is in regard to the sanctions, which were unilaterally imposed by the Cailil account without consensus. I have previously remarked on this. The indiscretions of LevenBoy are quite minor and there has been a total over-reaction to this matter. As LevenBoy points out, only those from what we can call the anti-BI camp were in favour of the sanctions. In fact, the sanctions appear to have been designed to silence opposition; what do we make of this from HighKing ? Given that Triton Rocker is blocked with no access to talk page, and LevenBoy has only just resumed editing after a significant break, how could HighKing claim the sanctions were successful if it was not that his consideration of success was the silencing of opposition. Tis whole issue of anti-BI POV goes on and on. Surely admins identifying, however indirectly, from one side of the debate, should not be issuing sanctions on those from the other side. LemonMonday Talk 12:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Fox News Channel controversies

• Fox News Channel controversies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive633#Fox News Channel, Fox News Channel controversies, user:SemDem

It appears this article has received a large amount of off-wiki requests for editing. The article has had to be protected twice, and I'm pessimistic about its future given the tone on the talk page. The recent RFC is something ridiculous like 250KB, and as you can see above, there is clear evidence of off-site canvassing. Is there some sort of sanctions we can draw up concerning this article without involving ArbCom? I'm afraid I stepped into an ugly mess by protecting this article, a mess I'm not prepared to see through to the finish lest it eat up all my time here. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Even ArbCom might not be able to handle such a large case if comments from meatpuppets swamped the case page. I haven't been involved in this, but if it is a very major issue, I'd keep up the fullprot, start a new RfC with clear organization and clear goals, and then hope for consensus some way or another. Then, any editor who breaches the terms of the RfC can be warned, then blocked, without more arguing about. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 00:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• I would suggest that we place the article (and any related ones, as necessary) under community-based General Sanctions similar to Arbcom Discretionary Sanctions immediately, to head off the problem before it becomes unmanageable. It has been done in the past, with mixed results, but I think it is worth trying in cases of off-wiki collaboration or meatpuppeting. We could either use AN/ANI for enforcement request, or establish a separate sanctions noticeboard, or even revive WP:CSN to handle community-enacted probation enforcement. The Wordsmith 00:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC) Actually, we could probably apply this to most of the pages in and its subcats, which are almost universally problem articles. The Wordsmith 00:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I am pessimistic about the need for a separate noticeboard. AN/ANI should work fine (as would simply merging the general sanctions noticeboards and WP:AE). The idea about the use of discretionary sanctions is a good one though. NW (Talk) 00:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support Community Sanctions idea WordSmith makes a good argument and its much needed IMO, it will also centralize allow us to centralize and future discussions and actions The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 00:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support CS Seems reasonable. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
• I'm not convinced that community probation will be helpful here. I'd be happy to endorse the protection in a way that that it doesn't become a centre of controversy, but I don't see the point of us going into this repeated cycle of where we impose this then it eventually needs to go to ArbCom anyway and then ArbCom accepts and then they impose discretionary sanctions which go hand in hand with AE. That's all that I can foresee from the suggestions so far. An alternative is changing this into a Community request that ArbCom impose discretionary sanctions (without, at this time, trying to address specific individual editors, which would be the real time-eater); that seems more suitable for the particular circumstances here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
  • What I'm proposing is not like the failed Climate Change sanctions, rather I want standard discretionary sanctions, but without the months-long hassle of an Arbcom case. The Wordsmith 04:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
    • The issue is that WP:AE is an AC page; if anything gets confusing or goes wrong, AC puts a lid on it (as they know the circumstances of the case for which they put discretionary sanctions - particularly ones which are especially drafted for a particular topic). When CC probation was enacted, they thought they importing something that was standard (they happened to copy every textual bit of Obama probation, as well as every page) - the reason it failed was for that same reason; what I'd specifically drafted for Obama probation with a specific type of operation doesn't to work in all other disputes; it's not quite-so "standard". Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support community sanctions. I assume the concern is that ArbCom discretionary sanctions will take too long to handle the ever-mounting piles of unpleasantness over there. I also like the idea that the community acts of its own accord to define certain topics as so contentious that they need to be editing more slowly, carefully, and civilly. It's bad when individual admins try to start imposing such rules, but if there is enough community support to say "Hey! Calm down already!" it seems like a good thing to me. Of course, we'll need wider input for this....Qwyrxian (talk) 04:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• This section got prematurely archived, i'm putting it back. What is the next step here? The Wordsmith 06:41, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
  • No it didn't; it was archived due to inactivity. A project-wide scheme cannot be put in place on the basis of limited input otherwise the entire project would be free to use discretionary sanctions (in reality, the Community specifically rejected this). The next step is for administrators to demonstrate that they've used all of the tools available to them in this area; that may include making a few proposals in relation to specific editors here with the specific restrictions they have in mind and seeing how the Community respond to these, and in more clear cases, blocks. If it does turn out that all the restrictions that need to be imposed have been via the Community, there's no need for anything else because it's just a handful of editors (some of whom might be treated as a single entity). If it doesn't, that's when your proposal will be ready for enactment. Steps need to be taken before shortcuts can be used. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

A new game with the featured article

Just as a heads up for those admins who don't watch TFA or RfPP, but yesterday (Shield nickel) and today (Convoy GP55) there's been IP vandalism to redirect the TFA to (intentionally not wikilinked), which has resulted in batches of short semi-protection. It would be helpful if other admins could keep an eye out. Ta. GedUK  08:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Criticisms