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Problems with definition in lead

I was surprised, in the discussion at the ArbCom CC PD, to see editors using "skepticism" and "denialism" as if they were identical. When I asked, I was pointed to this article. Now I understand the source of the confusion. I don't believe the definition is correct, and it isn't supported by the source. I'd like to discuss the problem, see if we can reach a consensus that there is a problem, then work toward a solution. At this time, I don't have a specific alternative definition.

The current definition:

Climate change denial is a term used to describe attempts to downplay the extent of global warming, its significance, or its connection to human behavior, especially for financial or other sectional interests.

The definition cites a single source:

Pascal Diethelm, Martin McKee (2009). "Denialism: what is it and how should scientists respond?" (pdf). European Journal of Public Health. 19 (1): 2–4. doi:10.1093/eurpub/ckn139. PMID 19158101.

The source was added by Blocked editor Ratel: Addition of Pascal Diethelm source

(It may or may not be relevant that Ratel was blocked in connection with editing of this article, but I'm not going to assume the definition or source is flawed simply because it was added by a blocked editor - I mention the blocking mainly because I like to notify editors who have added material, as theya re likely to have insight into the decision to add the material, but that cannot occur in this case.)

It is my position that those who are properly called "denialist" are a subset (possibly a small subset) of all those who would be considered skeptics, and the position of denialists is much stronger, and often more strident. Denialists typically either straight out deny that the globe is warming, or at least deny that mankind is contributing. In short, this is why they are denialists—they deny the existence of anthropogenic global warming.

The opening paragraph of the cited source states:

And if climate change is happening, it is nothing to do with man-made CO2 emissions.

I see this as a reasonable summarization of the viewpoint of a denialist. The "speaker" is denying a connection between CO₂ and CC. However, compare this statement to the definition in the article.

There is a substantial difference between "denying" and "downplaying", particularly, when one is defining a term using a form of "deny" in it.

One reasonable possibility is that the author was using the opening statement to be provocative, and the actual definition is contained in the body of the paper.

The paper defines denialism in the article(emphasis added):

The Hoofnagle brothers, a lawyer and a physiologist from the United States, who have done much to develop the concept of denialism, have defined it as the employment of rhetorical arguments to give the appearance of legitimate debate where there is none, an approach that has the ultimate goal of rejecting a proposition on which a scientific consensus exists.

While it is fair to say that denialists are denying the scientific consensus of anthropogenic global warming, it is not accurate to make such a blanket statement about skeptic, who fall on a continuum, some of whom fully accept the science as summarized by the IPCC.

The WP article works as a definition of skepticism (not perfectly, but as a reasonable start) but fails miserably as a definition of climate change denialism.

Given that the single source cited does not support the definition, we need to determine whether the definition is, in fact accurate, and we need better sources, or if the source is accurate, and we need a better definition. My opinions is closer to the latter, but I'd like to have some discussion before making concrete proposals.

As a start, does anyone disagree that the sources opening paragraph is a decent summarization of a denialist POV?--SPhilbrickT 16:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

You said an awful lot but it has confused rather than enlightened me, I'm not sure what you're saying. As to the lead I believe it does not say denialists have a point of view about climate change, it describes the actions they take in pursuit of their own agenda. Dmcq (talk) 19:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Correct, our definition is basically that "climate change denial" is a term for propaganda aimed to undermine the public response to climate change, rather than a term for any particular belief. I think that's basically accurate, but if sources suggest it refers to any specific position, that could probably be included as well. The question would be what sources show this. I added a "see also" at the top, which may clarify that there are other articles on the broader topics. For my part I think it may reflect a weakness of Misplaced Pages that it tends to have articles on phrases rather than articles on topics (in which phrases could be discussed). If it were up to me this term would probably be discussed within Global warming controversy, in which case you would avoid the legitimate confusion over what this article is really about. But, that's unlikely to happen. Mackan79 (talk) 23:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

@Dmcq - Sorry my long post was confusing. In short, the citation following the definition does not support the definition. It talks about denying that CO₂ is related to climate change. I agree that is denialism, but the definition in the article doesn't talk about denying anything, it talks about downplaying. Downplaying is not the same as denying.--SPhilbrickT 01:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

The confusion here reflects the lack of clarity in the real world. There's no well-accepted distinction in the real world between "skepticism" and "denialism" (or "contrarianism", or whatever -ism you like). Mackan79 basically has it right, especially his last three sentences. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

@Mackan79 Correct, our definition is basically that "climate change denial" is a term for propaganda aimed to undermine the public response to climate change, rather than a term for any particular belief. If that's how it is used, then it is a perversion of the English language, However, it won't be the first such example, and our job is descriptive, not prescriptive.

In any event, the opening sentence is not supported by the source, so if we really want to claim that denial is something other than denial, we need a source or two in support. For example, the source does not contain the word "downplay". Perhaps it contains a synonym, but I don't see that the source supports the definition. Can you explain how the definition follows from the Diethelm article?--SPhilbrickT 01:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

@SBHB - I don't doubt that there's some lack of clarity, as it appears some groups are trying to use the term "denialism" when "skepticism" would be more accurate. It ought to be our goal to add to the clarity, not continue the confusion. At the moment, it appears we have simply made up a definition. We either need to find a definition, or reconsider whether this article should exists. Because the phrase does get used, it would be better if we could shed light on the confusion and the misleading uses of the term. Instead, this article perpetuates a flawed definition without even the figleaf of a source to back it up.--SPhilbrickT 02:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

My perception is this: the terms "skeptic" and "denialist" are essentially rhetorical devices. Broadly, people whom some call "deniers" prefer to call themselves "skeptics." I'd bet that applies to almost all the individuals on Monbiot's list here. (Michaels doesn't even consistently regard himself as a "skeptic.") Some people go so far as to use the terms interchangeably. The bottom line is that there really shouldn't be a whole article on a topic that has no accepted meaning. As you note, the term is widely used so we should say something about it. But it would be more logically mentioned as part of the overall controversy where it could be put in context. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Both "skepticism" and "denial" have accepted meanings. And they aren't synonyms. If the terms "climate skepticism" and "climate denial" are made up terms without a relationship to the words in the term, then we owe it to readers to say so. In that case readers will come away informed that the terms are useless. If, on the other hand, the terms are largely used coherently (by that, I mean that climate denial has something to do with denial of scientific climate theories) but a few sources misuse the terms, them we owe it to readers to tell them that. At this point, I don't know which is closer to the truth. What I do know is that we have a definition, apparently made up by some Misplaced Pages editors, and a citation that doesn't support the definition. That cannot stand. (I did review the editing history, but I did not find a clear indication of the source of the definition.)--SPhilbrickT 02:54, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Both "skepticism" and "denial" have accepted meanings, but "climate change skepticism" and "climate change denial" do not. The fact that individual words (or morphemes) have given meanings does not necessarily allow us to construct the meaning of a term. Consider for example "anti-semitism," which does not mean opposition to Semites. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:54, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that "anti-semitism" is a perfect example of a term that does not mean what its constituent parts would seem to suggest. You may be right that "climate change denial" may not have an accepted meaning. If true, we owe it to our readers to tell them the truth what can be verified. At present, we are telling our readers that the term does have a meaning so we need to rectify the situation if it is cannot be verified. I don't know whether it is verifiable or not at this time, but I do know I can't get the existing definition from the cited source. I'm hoping someone can help me, otherwise we need to discuss what changes are needed.--SPhilbrickT 17:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

<-The entire article has a number of problems, but I thought it would make sense to start with one problem. Even with that, I may have erred on the side of excessive verbiage so I'll try one single question:

• What is the source of the definition? (It does not come from the cited source.)--SPhilbrickT 02:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Sphilbrick: Thanks for taking this on. This article has a long history of problems. I tagged this definition as "not in citation given".

Don't thank me too early :). I see that there are many problems with this article, and I thought I was starting with low-hanging fruit - many of the other issues are quite contentious, but I naively hoped it would be easy to get agreement that the definition in the article doesn't come from the source.--SPhilbrickT 02:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Re Ratel: my recollection is, he was one of the advocates for this page. He was a remarkably unpleasant editor to work with, though I haven't been active enough on this page to recall any specifics here. At any rate, this page has been rife with POV-pushing from the start, and apparently still is. Best wishes, Pete Tillman (talk) 02:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can see SPhilbrick is saying:

The first statement talks about downplaying rather than denying and the title says denial.

He thinks the definition covers skeptics better than deniers.

As to the first the term is denial, the meaning does not have to correspond in wording with the term. The whole point of denial is to have it rejected as something to do anything about rather than just to oppose it. If you have a look at the reference you'll see that most of it is devoted to the rhetorical arguments typically used by a denier, these are not primarily intellectual arguments and agreement but at getting gut feel support. The objective is not to provide evidence of falsity.

On the second point skepticism is a commendable quality in a scientist. For the general public I see it as entirely reasonable that they be skeptical about climate change given the amount of denial around by industry, fundamentalist churches, people wanting to make a name for themselves, newspapers wanting to 'balance the discussion', and conspiracy theorists jumping on the bandwagon, all of which far outweighs the number of scientists with genuine misgivings about it. The lead does not by any stretch of the imagination describe climate change skeptics except when denial is used to insult them. Dmcq (talk) 13:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

My point is that the definition does not come from the source. While you've commented on some other issues, you haven't identified where the definition comes form. I think we need a few more commentators for a consensus, but we are close to a consensus that the definition doesn't come from the source. Which means we either have to change the definition or find a better source. Which do you think is a more fruitful approach?--SPhilbrickT 13:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe it does come from the source. Misplaced Pages summarizes sources, it doesn't copy out a few pages of source which is what the source has as its definition. I believe you disagree with what is written and think climate change denial means something else. If you could give some indication what you believe it means please do so. Dmcq (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Please point to the section of the source which supports the definition. For comparison, Holocaust denial defines the term, and links to source. While the WP definition is not a literal quote, the definition in the source has the same meaning as the WP definition. I cited the sources opening example, which I agree is an example of denialism, but it isn't used for the definition. I quoted the Hoofnagle brothers definition of denialism, but the WP definition is not a summarization of that definition. Did I miss another formulation of the definition? (I do see the claim that deniers use rhetorical arguments, but surely no one would argue that the use of rhetorical arguments defines a climate change denier, otherwise almost all Misplaced Pages editors would qualify.)--SPhilbrickT 16:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

As to your thinking the lead described skepticism more than denial, perhaps environmental skepticism is what you were thinking of? That is much further along the line towards denial than straight skepticism about climate change. It is more about the gut reaction people have when they think doing anything about climate change might make it dearer to take a holiday or a religious person might feel about evolution demoting the place of man in the world. Dmcq (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Please give some indication what you believe climate change denial means. You said you thought the lead applied more to skepticism than denial, that is so far turned around from what it says as far as I'm concerned that I find it very difficult to understand what your points are. Your statement implies you came with some belief of your own and are interpreting what you see through that and not being able to understand what you are up to makes communication difficult. Dmcq (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

My personal views aren't relevant here. I'm reading an article which starts by defining a term. That definition seems odd, so I look at the source of the definition, and I don't see how to get from there to here. No one, other than you, has claimed they see how the definition in WP derives from the source. I hope this doesn't come across as heavy-handed, but I'm asking questions, and I'm not seeing clear answers, so I'm trying to make my questions crisp and to the point:

• What text in the source supports the definition?--SPhilbrickT 17:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned the citation supports the definition. What exactly is the problem as far as you can see? Dmcq (talk) 17:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

The citation says:

And if climate change is happening, it is nothing to do with man-made CO2 emissions.

The article says:

Climate change denial is a term used to describe attempts to downplay the extent of global warming, its significance, or its connection to human behavior, especially for financial or other sectional interests.

Those two statements are not remotely the same. I'll give it a few more days, so some people on holiday can weight in.--SPhilbrickT 19:19, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

There is an 'and' in the first statement and it is illustrative rather than prescriptive. Anyway I'll leave it to others since you seem unable or unwilling to discuss what you see as wrong with it, perhaps they can get you to be more forthcoming. Dmcq (talk) 20:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the first sentence is more illustrative than prescriptive. What is wrong is that the definition in the article doesn't bear any relationship to that prescription. Do you disagree?

I disagree with you on that. I believe that "And if climate change is happening, it is nothing to do with man-made CO2 emissions" is a descriptive instance of the first part "Climate change denial is a term used to describe attempts to downplay the extent of global warming, its significance, or its connection to human behavior". There is and 'and' there which covers more plus the "especially for financial or other sectional interests" bit. And since the denial has little to do with the actual science the 'CO2' part is not a specific of the denial. Dmcq (talk) 22:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• The lead is POV. It needs to be stated at the top that "denial" is a pejorative term used by advocates of the scientific consensus position on global warming. Both this article and the parallel Global warming alarmism article need to make it clear that each of these two terms is used by opponents of their point of view. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

An article is not POV just because some people do not like it. POV applies if the sources are not summarized in an unbiased fair and proportionate way. Fairness in presenting views by giving a 50-50 balance to everything like some newspapers and television does is not what wikipedia means by WP:neutral point of view. The lead of the article already says in two different places that people don't apply the term to themselves and that the term has been criticised as deligitimizing views. What is there is quite sufficient. Dmcq (talk) 14:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't saying the entire article was POV, just the lead, by failing to indicate clearly that this is a pejorative term used by opponents. I have the same view of the alarmist article. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I thought the lead did carefully distinguish between skepticism and denial. It says people or companies described as deniers don't normally apply the term to themselves. It also said that the term had been criticized as trying to inject morality into a situation where companies and people are perfectly free to go and try and influence public opinion by any legal means available. Do you feel that if a person applies the term to the situation the article is talking about then that is unreasonable in some way? Dmcq (talk) 14:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I just would like to see in the first sentence a clear statement of who is using that term. What I meant was that the alarmist article has the same issue. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with how the climate change alarmism article treats it either. The lead should describe the topic. As it is as far as I can see both terms can be used in either an insulting or straight descriptive manner. Misplaced Pages isn't in the business of prescribing behaviour and people are quite adept in knowing if they are insulting people or not. It is not like saying someone is a baboon which incidentally doesn't say anythig about it being prejudical. Dmcq (talk) 17:50, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'm not understanding the proper difference between Global warming controversy and Climate change denial, but I have to say that coming to this article as a first time reader, it struck me as bias. I agree that denial is not skepticism and the title of the article instantly places such thought in categories as Holocaust deniers. Perhaps a minor point, but while often used interchangeably, climate change is not the same thing as global warming. The lead then beings with the statement they downplay the extent of global warming, which gives the bias view that the extent of global warming (whatever that extent) is fact. Being an ancillary article, it would seem more neutral to title the article "Global warming skepticism", and start with the more common criticism of people that are skeptical of the extent of global warming caused by human activity. The lead and the first sentence poison the well before you even read anything else. It would be fine to say that critics call them Climate change deniers, but it seems bias to frame the entire article in the critics viewpoint. We don't call the Flat earth article Round earth denial, no matter how crazy they are. Morphh 15:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

No, sorry, the well-poisoning is not happening on the side of this article. As an encyclopedia we are not in the pay of any industry groups, and we have no obligation to misrepresent the state of research just because ExxonMobil managed to confuse the general public in the same way, and largely using the same techniques and organisations, as Philip Morris managed to confuse the public about the health effect of smoking. We go with the state of research, not with petrol companies' spin on it. And particularly so in an article that deals directly with their machinations. Hans Adler 16:26, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Who said anything about misrepresenting the state of research? If anything, the title misrepresents the argument. It is non-negotiable NPOV policy that neutral wording be used in the article, particularly for the title and primary definition. As wrong as ExxonMobil may be, we have to lay out the arguments neutrally. Morphh 19:42, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

This is an article about climate change denial, not about ExxonMobil, global warming or the global warming controversy. As you can see there are separate articles about each of them, and many more besides. As such, this one defines what that well-used term means, how it's used, and gives examples of where the term has been applied in the real world. If you don't want to know about climate change denial, but about some other aspect of climate change, then the other articles cover every base and every option. Suggestions for how better to cover climate change denial in this article are welcome, of course. --Nigelj (talk) 20:03, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable if the article is about that topic point and not the general skepticism. I arrived here because someone was linking skeptics to this article. So there is some confusion on its topic point. If it's alright with everyone, I'd like to put an about tag in the lead, to redirect people that are looking for skepticism on the human impact of global warming. Morphh 20:09, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Added about tag. Please reword as needed to accurately reflect the article. Morphh 20:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd have thought a reasonable path would be to remove the link to here in that other article or change it point somewhere else? That would be far prefereable to trying to change the target to correspond to what you think the link should have pointed to. Dmcq (talk) 20:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

That was done as well, but it still remains that the topic could be confused with the broader topic. About tags are very common in Misplaced Pages to clarify such topic points. Morphh 21:12, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The about note

I'm not happy with the wording of the new about note. Where it says, "for skepticism of global warming theories", there is already an implicit assumption that global warming is merely a theory, or set of theories. The article linked has also been the subject of extensive review and discussion over the years and it introduces its topic more carefully, per WP:NPOV. I suggest we use the opening wording from there and change the about note, if it is necessary here, to read, "This article is about global warming denial. For the disputes regarding the nature, causes, and consequences of global warming, see global warming controversy." --Nigelj (talk) 21:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If we're describing the scientific states of hypothesis, theory, and law. I don't see how it could be assumed be more than a theory at this point (suggesting it could be a law?), but your wording sounds fine to me. It appears neutral. Morphh 1:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Links in quotes in contravention of policy

@DMCQ: I removed the links from inside quotes and cited the policy. While that policy does have some wiggle room "As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes" I do not see policy support for your claim that we "Should do major links even in quotes". Can you cite the source of your exception to policy?--SPhilbrickT 19:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

As much as possible means do it unless you're removing something of great use. It is like Einstein's dictum of simplify as much as possible but no more. Rules should not be followed where to the extent they harm an article especially when they have wriggle room. Dmcq (talk) 14:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping you'd come up with policy wording supporting your revert, or at least some comparable example with a consensus to override the general policy. I did some homework looking up other exceptions; there are some, but nothing that hints that this would qualify. However, before I revert, there's a bigger problem. The quote is there to explain why greenhouses gasses aren't regulated, but that's no longer true, so more significant trimming is required. I'm not up for it at the moment, perhaps others can start thinking about how to fix this. The logical step is to remove the full sentence including the quote. Then we might look to see if there's something relevant and more recent than 2007. --SPhilbrickT 00:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Could you please explain yourself rather than just asserting things. You have not provided a single explanation for any of your assertions so far on this talk page. In this case are you saying that greenhouse gases are regulated and therefore any statements about what happened in the past must be removed? May I point out that this article is principally about a denial rather than the current state of climate change? Dmcq (talk) 10:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I think I am explaining myself; if you have specific questions please ask. As to your assertion that this article is about a denial, my main point is that this article is hopelessly vague and needs to be materially improved. On the present point, the closing sentence of the article is an illustration of the effects of denial, showing that the denialists have managed to prevent the regulation of greenhouse gases. In fact, greenhouse gasses are regulated, so a reader will find it odd to read the concluding sentence. Do you disagree? If you'd like to propose a way to put the incorrect facts into a larger context, I'm happy to work with you on it. I was going to take the simple option and just remove the incorrect statement, but perhaps there's a better way.--SPhilbrickT 12:08, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you referring to the control of noxious gases like sulphur dioxide so they don't cause damage in the area or to the EPA's plans to bring in some regulation of greenhouse gases in 2011 so the US can be on a par with Saudi Arabia in its controls? As to facts I'm keen to have articles factual but I've found the easiest way to counter inaccuracies that have been published in reliable sources is to find a good reliable source that contradicts them and sets the record straight. Just removing them because I think they are wrong is heading towards POV editing. Dmcq (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Nature: Science scorned

: There is a growing anti-science streak on the American right that could have tangible societal and political impacts on many fronts... Denialism over global warming has become a scientific cause célèbre within the movement. William M. Connolley (talk) 07:21, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

What, they're just figuring this out now? :) Franamax (talk) 07:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that article describes more the general skepticism in some quarters about science even though it also describes the denial, still I think it could be a good reference somewhere here. <personal rant, sorry> I've been wondering if this anti-science turn is because the science is so hidden nowadays, people don't service their own car, you don't have steam engines with the pistons moving, people don't solder a computer together, chemistry lessons have been made safe, children play a video game rather than program something in basic or wind a solenoid up and make a simple electric motor, who ever nowadays melts glass to draw out a pipette or even make a decoration, something like technical Lego is the best children have nowadays to give them some idea of science. No wonder they have no feel for it.</end rant> Dmcq (talk) 11:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality

The title of this article is unneutral and should be revised to something like Criticism of Climate Change..--Novus Orator 06:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• C-Class Environment articles
• Unknown-importance Environment articles
• WikiProject Climate change articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
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