Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:31, 11 February 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

(For earlier discussions, see Talk:Hamas/Archive 1 or Talk:Hamas/Archive 2)

Hamas Terrorist Activities

Stop removing references to Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Terrorism is not some vague or subjective phenomenon. It has an objective definition and therefore classifying an organisation as terrorist when it fits that definition does not violate NPOV. For the above reason I am changing the second sentence of the article from:

While Hamas is involved in social welfare programs throughout the West Bank and Gaza, it also has a history of targeting Israeli civilians to further its goal of a single Palestinian state.

To: Hamas is involved in terrorist, military, and social welfare activities.

If you have a good reason of changing this version, I suggest you post them in this discussion.

I agree.Loomis51 03:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Hamas's "Philanthropic" Wing

I think we can all agree three basic points:

- Hamas does not recognize the existence of Israel and is committed to its "removal" (to use an NPOV term) from the face of the earth.

- Hamas has committed violient acts, targeted at killing Israeli civilians (whom it regards as potential soldiers).

- Hamas also provides philanthropic services to the Palestinian people, including building Hospitals and Schools.

My suggestion, therefore, is to leave the introductory paragraph alone. However, to be consistent, and to retain a NPOV, the first paragraph of the article on German Nazism should begin with a comment on how it brought Germany out of economic depression, renewed hope among the German people, began a youth movement that inspired its members with discipline and good, honest, hard work, and, just happened also to have advocated the extermination of all Jews.

Sounds pretty NPOV doesn't it? Presenting the good and the bad?Loomis51 20:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Countries that consider Hamas to be a terrorist group

I have added Australia to the list of countries that consider Hamas as a terrorist group. See: http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/agd/www/nationalsecurity.nsf/AllDocs/CADAB9AC4723C526CA256FCD001BA892?OpenDocument for more information.

2006 election result

Some claims continuosly that Hamas won 56,1 %. I have now added reference to the figures (42,9%)(Central Clection Commission - Palesetine). As long as my figures are not refuted with a reliable reference, I suggest that we consider any edit of the election result as vandalism. See also Bertilvidet 20:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Where to put the "Terrorist group" part of description

I suggest replacing "as well as in terrorist activities" for "as well as violent activities", because terrorism is a non-neutral term. Everyone would agree on the violent nature of something, but not on the terrorist nature. If not, I suggest that the article would have to be classified as "not neutral".

Let me start by saying I'm no partisan of Hamas or Islamist political parties in general.

But can the people who keep sticking the "terrorist group" designation in the first sentence please stop it? I certainly don't disagree that lots of what Hamas does is terrorism. But it seems to me that we can leave the discussion of terrorist activity to the third sentence/paragraph of the description. The first two sentences/grafs should just deal with the organization in the most general of terms, and relatively objectively, and to some extent on its own terms.

For all of the zealots out there who care about nothing but the terrorist part...your time will come, in sentence number 3. Okay? Please? jackbrown 13:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

PS- This article betrays the fundamental weakness of the Misplaced Pages system when it comes to strongly contested political issues: partisans of one side or both edit the article into a disconnected, uninformative mass of gibberish instead of letting the wonderful wiki process of information accretion and expertise produce something which actually informs readers.

The best example here:

Hamas built its electoral strength on a lot more than suicide bombings against Israel; like a lot of Islamist movements, it derives its strength from supplying services where the state (ie Fatah and the PLO) fail; education, housing etc. Also, it was operating until last week from the very convenient position of being able to criticize the PLO for its corruption and incompetence from the sidelines. (Now we'll see if they're any better at operating than the PLO was, right?)

But of course our article has none of this (or when it does it's buried somewhere), thanks to the partisans who crash about wrecking everything in their zeal to get their point across. All this article talks about is terrorism. Hamas certainly is more than that, whatever your political views are on Israel/Palestine. jackbrown 13:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate to use the word "terrorist" in the context of the US, European Union, and Israel's official categorization of Hamas; that's a verifiable fact for now. Outside of that context, I stick by the "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist" maxim. OhNoitsJamie 23:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The maxim you are referring to is logically incorrect. "Freedom fighter" as a term pertains to the goal which a person is trying to achieve. Terrorism is a TACTIC used to achieve that or any other goal. I think its easy to agree that Hamas is a terrorist organisation from NPOV because it employs terrorist tactics ( Terrorism - the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear -dictionary.com). Please note that acknowledging the fact that Hamas is inherently a terrorist organisation does not depend on justification of Hamas actions or lack of it and therefore does not violate NPOV. Jackbrown, if you argue against using the word terrorist in the first sentence of the description please provide an clear and logical explanation as to why not, rather than calling people zealots. I think that little comment clearly reveals you are biased. -neolex (neolex@msn.com)

Any group that deliberately targets civilians is a terrorist group, so calling Hamas a terrorist group is correct. But, we must remember that they also have non-terrorist activities, which is already noted in the article to some degree. (Grammaton Cleric, Feb 2, 06)

Israel funded Hamas?

What is the definitive source for Israel's early support of Hamas? Articles referenced seem to go both ways. I think that this should be brought up, but shouldn't be stated as fact. 00:56, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Moreover, the article says Hamas was founded 1987 but funded by Israel 1970. How come? Leandro GFC Dutra 22:19, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to have some more information about Israel's early support for Hamas; something I've heard a lot about but never seen discussed in detail.jackbrown 14:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Leandro - the reason for the confusion in dates is that the article fails to carefully outline the fact that Hamas is an organization which grew out of the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood during the first Intifada--and then basically supplanted the Brotherhood; nowadays there is no distinction between them in Palestine. I guess I should write a paragraph in the article outlining the evolution. But I feel that the article is so broken that it needs to be taken down and rewritten from the bottom up, something you can't do on Wiki.jackbrown 14:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Repeated blocks of text in this Talk

There appear to be large sections of this Talk page that are repeated, as if the entire text of it was appended to itself at one point. Would one of the more established contributors to this page please delete the extra copies of the discussions? Once that is done, feel free to delete this note as well. Thanks. --Lachrym 21:47, 25 August 2005 (UTC) Please could the contributor also consider altering wording which may provoke controversy on what is obviously a contentious article. Eg the present article refers to the assassination of Izz El-Dee Sheikh Khaild whilst describing the killings of Yaron and Erfat Ungar as muder.195.93.21.100 11:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Municipal elections

Hamadamas, I deleted "In 2004, Hamas participated in the Municipal elections in parts of the Gaza Strip and won a considerable percentage of seats there. " I did this because the link after the sentence isn't about the municipal elections, and "considerable percentage" is a POV weasel term. You need to say what percentage and supply a source. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 21:43, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you SlimVirgin for correcting me. How does it look now? Hamadamas 06:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

That's very good. Thank you for finding the source and re-writing it. My only criticism would be that you've quoted the BBC but without quotation marks. I would either paraphrase what the BBC said or use part of it as a quote e.g. "Hamas gained over one third of the municipal councils in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, taking control of them from Fatah, described by the BBC as "the biggest force in Palestinian politics." And then link to the story. But that's just a suggestion. Feel free to ignore. ;-) SlimVirgin 08:40, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Good Suggestion Slim. I'll do something like that. Thanks. Hamadamas 08:56, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Israel conscription rates

While 80% of those who receive summons serve. only 50% of Israelis get a summons. This makes the word universal wrong. Those who are exempt from service include most minority groups (over 20%), those who are not physically or psychologically fit, married women or women with children, religious males who are studying in an accredited Jewish Law institution (most Haredi which are another 10%) and religious females (Haredi and non haredi total 20%) who choose to pursue 'national service' - community work. total only 80% of 50% serve.

In reserve duty the number drop to 10%.

If on the other hand a mother of a child is considered a mother of a soldier to be - then this fit Hamas "logic" of killing every jew. Zeq 21:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Do you have a source on this? And even if the rates are lower like you said, the sentence can still be kept with the lower rates. 50% or so is still significant. So if you can provide a source, we can change the sentence to make it so it shows these percentage. --a.n.o.n.y.m 15:56, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

No you can not "change the sentence to make it so it shows these percentage" because this would show that this is your original research that you are changing to adapt it to the reality (that israeli public is not 100% soldiers). So Please let us remove this "terror justifying" sentence and if you find a source that we should use in order to return it please provide it. Right now it is unsourced and not true. Zeq 17:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Look you said that "Israel's policy of universal conscription implies that a majority of adults serve in either the Israeli military or the reserves at some point in their lives" is not true. So do you have any sources to change this. It is not a terror justifying sentence anyways and if you were telling the truth in giving statistics like only 80% of 50% serve then you would source this. --a.n.o.n.y.m 17:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Are we talking about your own argument or about what Hamas is arguing. If this is what hamas is saying (and you have source for this) please fell free to quote that source and I will add a note (and source it) that hamas is wrong.

If you offer to change the argument based on what i wrote, this mean this is not what Hamas is saying but what you are saying - in such case this is Original Reseach - and should not be on the article. It does look to me as trying to justify killing civilians - this is "justifying terror" which I don't think should be on Misplaced Pages. It may even put it in leagl situation that it want to avoid. In any case the best way to avoid such problems is also the right way we are doing things around here: Quote it and source it.

Zeq 19:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Anonymous editor, please see Israel Defense Forces#Reserve Service and talk:Israel Defense Forces#Omitted sentence about participation in reserve service. It is well-known that the vast majority of Israelis do not participate in reserve service. The sentence that Zeq removed created a false impression that the Israeli society is combatant in some respect. Since Hamas' argument is presented in a NPOV manner further down anyway, I think this sentence is better left.--Doron 08:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay I am fine with it. I just wanted him to provide some source on the matter as I have too heard that most Israelis are required to serve some time in the army. It would have been easier if Zeq just clarified with a source rather than saying that he "will add a note that Hamas is wrong". If later a source can be provided that a large percentage are required to serve I think the sentence can be re-added with some changes. Thanks for the info Doron. --a.n.o.n.y.m 16:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I simply don't understand the purpose of this debate. What exactly makes Israeli conscription rates relevant to anything? Does a high conscription rate mean that terrorist attacks against civilians are more justified? Remember that the United States and pretty much every other country in the world at one time or another had conscription. Even Canada, (where I'm from,) a country admired for its devotion to world peace, had, during hard times (i.e. WWII,) universal adult male conscription. What exactly is the point of this debate anyway?Loomis51 19:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

To be accurate, I believe. --Anonymous Canadian--

Food for thought

In the quest for neutrality, most here seem to want to fight for the position of one group over another. Some bring religious text into account without actually knowing or quoting the actual text. The state of Israel was legally declared in 1948, so claiming it is an illegal state is ridiculous. Murdering people while they enjoy a slice of pizza or cup of coffee or blowing up a bus with kids on it is terrorism, prove me wrong. Quoting the protocols of the elders of zion is both irresponsible and dangerous. They were fictional. I am jewish, and I've never been to the meetings. neither has my father, or his father, or anyone I have ever met. There is no conspiracy amongst jews to dominate or rule or run the world. If there is, it is failing miserably. Hamas is a militant, extremist, islamic terrorist group with the singular goal of destroying the state of israel and replacing it with an illegal state called palestine. If they were truly a group interested in the plight of muslims, they would be charitable, kind and philanthropic. Instead, they line up children in front of a school and then open fire on israeli military personnel, then cry and scream when a child gets shot. the claim that moses was a prophet of Allah is insane. The Torah predates the Koran by almost 3000 years. Mohommed, the greatest prophet of Allah was illiterate, which is how most of the muslim world is kept. An illiterate public is a compliant and obedient public, hence the devotion to the hatred of everyone not muslim. In some places of the Koran, Muslims are called to love ‘people of the book’, Christians, Jews and other theologians, and in other places called to kill them. The reality is, no god has ever espoused murder in their name. Quite the contrary, it is the calling of man to murder is exaltation to god. It should also be noted that so called palestinians are actually refugees from neighboring arab nations that refused to allow their safe return to their homelands. Most of these people were given safe harbor back to their nations of origin, only to be shot at and put in danger by the receiving nations. It is a documented fact that every single 'palestinian' came from an arab, muslim nation that refuses them the right of return.

-- the torah wasn't made a writing until about 1000 years before the quranic revelations.

according to Misplaced Pages, the Torah was handed down to Moses in writen form c.1280 BC. That would make it almost 2000 years older than the Koran, not 1000.Loomis51 23:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

christians and jews who speak arabic say they worship allah, do you discredit them all? surely christians think moses was a prophet of god (allah/eloah/elohim)

Jews don't worship Allah...what are you smoking?Loomis51 06:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

- What is the problem with the prophet being unable to read ("illiterate" in your words)? This is not disputed by Muslims. In fact, his inability to read is cited as evidence that the Quran must have divine provenance since he could not have written it himself. I don't necessarily believe in this argument (I'm Muslim by the way), but cite it to show that "Prophet is illiterate" is not actually a useful insult. /bangali/

Allah and God refer to the same thing, so to say that 'Moses was a prophet of Allah is insane', is uninformed and plain ignorant.

Allah is only the Muslim reference to God. Jews and Christians do not refer to God as Allah. You should know better than that.Loomis51 06:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Allah means God in Arabic. Jews and Christians do not refer to God as Allah unless they are speaking Arabic, in which case they do. The words "You should know better than that" and "what are you smoking" are unneccessary. --Anonymous Canadian--

Hamas never lines up children and shoots innocent people. Consider this, in Israel, the conscription age is 18, thus anybody over the age of 18 is technically a soldier, therefore can be considered a target. Hamas also won the election in 2006 because they have social programs for the poor and build schools, and what do you know, they even have female leaders and soldiers.

Hamas is well known for its use of "Human Shields".

I'm sure the KKK has a "philanthropic wing", aiding poor white children...that does not make it any less a despicable organization. The same goes for Hamas.Loomis51 06:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Just because the existence of Israel was "legitimized" by Britain, the US and other countries, does not mean that you can simply take over a land where people have lived for generations and called Palestine, and suddenly rename it Israel and claim that Palestinians have no place there.

Palestinians have a place there, they vote, get named to the knesset and even have a place in the cabinet of Israel. So much can not be said of the 20 or so "Arab" nations where Jews have lived for generations yet enjoy no civil rights.Loomis51 06:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Dubious biased edit

there is no reason for this edit: Zeq 04:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Two things:

• The person quoted in the Gardian is quoted as hearing Rantisi say that they will "wipe Israel off the map". This may or may not be the goal of Hamas, but this article (from the Guardian) does not claim this is a stated goal. Use the Hamas charter if you want to find out what the stated goal is. "Wipe Israel off the map" is something that Iranian nutcase says.
• As for the spin doctor story - Hamas strongly denied it yesterday, and actually explained who Aqtash is (a media advisor for the campaign in the Ramallah area only). See here if you read Arabic.

Ramallite 06:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a valid POV. Feel free to present both POV into the article. Zeq 06:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Your POV does not constitute a valid POV for introduction into Misplaced Pages, it consitutes original research. Palmiro | Talk 21:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It is all quotes (source: ) so there goes your argument of OR. But more important is your tone and attitude: While I am willing to accept a different POV you deligitimize any POV that is not yours.

btw, How things in damsak now a days ? ready for snactions ? Zeq 08:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that helpful remark, not to mention your ever-appreciated positive tone and attitude. Palmiro | Talk 16:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

You have given no reason for your revert of the sourced material. So I am revereting your revert. Do you want to go through another edit war or find the other POV, source it and present it. You surly know how wikipedia works (and avoid the perosonal sracastic remarks. Hope all is well for you in Demsak. Zeq 19:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ramallite has given the reasons. Are you seriously complaining about "personal sarcastic remarks" that I made? Palmiro | Talk 19:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you deny the Guradian quote ? go and argue this with the guardian not with me. If you have an alternate POV (different description of events from the one portrayed by the Guardian) and this alternate POV is in a source that we can all verify - go ahead present that POV side by side to the one by the guardian. Zeq 21:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

My opinion on this: the spin doctor allegation can be mentioned, as an allegation, and with the Hamas reply also cited. It should not be mentioned in the way that Zeq suggests, which I think is overly long (this is, after all, a minuscule detail), doesn't really fit the paragraph (it should be with election info), and needs a rewrite for better style. Also, the Guardian article does not claim that Hamas pays families of suicide bombers, generously or otherwise. Arre 22:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

BBC NEWS

Who are Hamas? Hamas appears to have translated its widespread popularity among Palestinians into a dramatic win in the Parliamentary elections.

Its new-found political status does not make it any less controversial, however.

Branded a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US and the EU, it is seen by its supporters as a legitimate fighting force defending Palestinians from a brutal military occupation.

It is the largest Palestinian militant Islamist organisation, formed in 1987 at the beginning of the first intifada, or Palestinian uprising against Israel's occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

The group's short-term aim has been to drive Israeli forces from the occupied territories, through attacks on Israeli troops and settlers in the Palestinian territories and - more controversially - against civilians in Israel.

It insists that the withdrawal of Israeli settlers and troops from Gaza last year was a victory for this policy.

It also has a long-term aim of establishing an Islamic state on all of historic Palestine - most of which has been contained within Israel's borders since its creation in 1948.

Since the death of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, it has taken part in local elections and won many seats in areas like Gaza, Qalqilya and Nablus.

But its biggest triumph follows this week's parliamentary elections, in which the group appears to have won enough seats to form the next Palestinian government.

The grass-roots organisation - with a political and a military wing - has an unknown number of active members but tens of thousands of supporters and sympathisers.

Up to 40,000 people rallied in Gaza City in December 2002 to mark Hamas' 15th anniversary where they heard the group's spiritual leader, the late Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, predict Israel's destruction by the year 2025.

Huge crowds also took to the streets after his assassination by Israel in 2004 and that his successor Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi later that year.

Opponent of Oslo

Hamas is divided into two main spheres of operation:

   * social programmes like building schools, hospitals and religious institutions
   * militant operations carried out by Hamas' underground Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades. 

It also has a branch in exile, formerly in Jordan - where one of its leaders, Khalid Meshaal, was the target of a bungled Israeli assassination attempt in 1997.

King Hussein tolerated Hamas' presence but his successor, King Abdullah II had the group's headquarters closed down and senior figures expelled to Qatar.

Hamas came to prominence after the first intifada as the main Palestinian opponent of the Oslo accords - the US-sponsored peace process that oversaw the gradual and partial removal of Israel's occupation in return for Palestinian guarantees to protect Israeli security.

Despite numerous Israeli operations against Hamas and clampdowns by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian National Authority, Hamas found it had an effective power of veto over the process by launching suicide attacks.

In February and March 1996, Hamas carried out several suicide bus bombings, killing nearly 60 Israelis, in retaliation for the assassination in December 1995 of Hamas bomb maker Yahya Ayyash.

The bombings were widely credited with turning Israelis off the peace process and bringing about the election of hardline right-winger Binyamin Netanyahu who was a staunch opponent of the Oslo accords.

Growing support

In the post-Oslo world, most particularly following the failure of US President Bill Clinton's Camp David summit in the summer of 2000 and the second intifada which followed shortly thereafter, Hamas gained power and influence as Israel steadily destroyed the infrastructure of the secularist Palestinian Authority.

In towns and refugee camps besieged by the Israeli army, Hamas organises clinics and schools which serve Palestinians who feel entirely let down by the corrupt and inefficient PNA.

It also summarily executed Palestinian collaborators with Israel and dished out vigilante punishments for "immoral behaviour".

Many Palestinians cheered the wave of Hamas suicide attacks (and those of fellow militants Islamic Jihad and the secular al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade) which followed.

Many Palestinians saw "martyrdom" operations as the best way to avenge their own losses and counter Israel's unchecked settlement building in the West Bank.

There have been efforts to unite the various Palestinian factions, with Cairo hosting a series of meetings since 2002 to negotiate a suspension of terror attacks.

But Hamas has always shied away from signing up to a permanent ceasefire while Israel occupies Palestinian territory and its troops are responsible for the deaths of Palestinians there.

"The killing of civilians must be punished by the killing of civilians," Mahmoud al-Zahhar, a senior member of Hamas, said.

Assassinations

As well as inflicting by far the most casualties on Israelis - with attacks that are generally better-planned and executed than those of other militant groups - Hamas has lost many members of its leadership in Israeli assassinations and security sweeps.

Its founder Sheikh Yassin was killed in a missile attack on 22 March 2004, after an unsuccessful attempt on his life six months before.

Following the killing of Sheikh Yassin, Mr Rantissi emerged as Hamas leader in Gaza before he too was assassinated on 17 April 2004. Khaled Meshaal, now based in Syria and Lebanon, is the group's overall leader.

Prominent Hamas officials killed by the Israelis include Ismail Abu Shanab, in August 2003, and Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades leader Salah Shehada, in July 2002.

Shehada's successor, Mohammad Deif - whom Israel blames for the 1996 bombings - has escaped several attempts on his life.

But Hamas attacks on Israel have continued thick and fast, with suicide bombings and armed assaults claiming hundreds of lives. Three Hamas supporters were even convicted of an unsuccessful attempt to poison Israeli diners at a Jerusalem restaurant.

On the other hand, the group has shown itself willing to periodically suspend attacks in favour of Palestinian diplomacy, if the group sees fit.

"The main aim of the intifada is the liberation of the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem, and nothing more. We haven't the force to liberate all our land," Mr Rantissi told the BBC in 2002.

"It is forbidden in our religion to give up a part of our land, so we can't recognise Israel at all. But we can accept a truce with them, and we can live side by side and refer all the issues to the coming generations."

The suspensions have sometimes - but not always - come to an end when Israeli forces launched their own attacks killing Hamas members.

Facing the electorate

The decision to stand in Palestinian elections has been a major departure for Hamas.

Top figures say it reflects the importance of the movement and the need for it to play a role in a failing Palestinian political sphere beset by corruption, inefficiency and lost credibility.

It has used Israel's Gaza withdrawal as a campaign platform.

However, mainstream groups like Fatah say the move signifies a de facto acceptance of the Oslo accords and recognition of Israel's right to exist - a characterisation that Hamas rejects.

But Hamas' armed wing remains the epitome of the "terrorist infrastructure" which the Palestinian Authority is called on to dismantle under the international peace plan known as the roadmap. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/1654510.stm

Published: 2006/01/26 10:29:37 GMT

© BBC MMVI

I'm sorry Zeq but I agree with Palmiro and Ramallite. Your alterations to the initial paragraph must be removed and immediately given the frequent access this page will have today and over the next few days. The quoted statement is rhetorical, hearsay, and POV. Simply allowing for the inclusion of other POVs is neither responsible nor appropriate in a Wiki introduction. See NPOV. I can think of hundreds of ways to state the organizations aim or intent of removing and replacing the Israeli government with one of their own that is not combative and laced with non-factual implication. The statement "wipe off the map" could be construed as one inclusive of the Israeli people and not simply targeted at the government. As someone who came here this morning looking for more information on Hamas, its origin and mission, such a statement was profoundly unhelpful to me and I'm sure to others who take the time to check their facts and corroborate their sources. Please do not revert the changes again until you have some form of primary documentation supporting this generalized powerfully worded intent of the organization as a whole. (ImagoDei 14:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

You have to complain to the Guardian. And the frequncy this aryicle may have is not the issue. If you have the opposing POV present it. This is the essence of NPOV. We are not a Primary source.

You fail to understand the essence of my complaint. It is the burden of the editor to provide evidence of their claim. The Guardian quotes a third party (not a member of Hamas) making such a statement about Hamas. This is what is called "hearsay" and can also be considered "speculation." It is not fact from a primary source, such as the leader of Hamas, a scholarly work on the subject of Hamas or more importantly their charter. This article being in the spotlight IS an issue because it reflects upon the Misplaced Pages project as a whole and the reliability of it as a source. The essence of NPOV is not to present all or sympathetic POVs, but to present a neutral, objective, and factual one with the least bias possible. Your understanding of this principle is incorrect. We are not a primary source but we should strive for the highest scholarly standards at all points. Your individual bias shows in this and many of your other edits and I would ask you to please find it within you to separate your emotions from your intellectual contributions. Please do not re-insert the line. I leave this post here for several hours hopefully to hear some consensus from the rest of the Wiki community. No one else objects to my removal of this line and so far several in fact agree with me. You have no right to force your opinion on others.

An Agnostic's opnion:

The fact of the matter is, That Israelis and Palestine both have a right to LIVE, and they are both occupying the same space so they both have a right to LIVE in that Space and no old books or rich western countries should dictate who gets to live where.

that is insane. We are all here now.

and now isn't 1948 and now isn't 40 bc. Now is 2006 And if there is a GOD,JEOVA,ALLA,JESUS,THOR,etc it doesn't look like he,it, is paying attention so we are going to have to solve this amongst ourselves, Humans.

I commend the Hamas for there honesty and all though they are vulgar violent 
 trouble makers at least they are honest, 

The IDFis almost as bad a terrorist group has the Hamas only they will

never admit it and have paperwork to back it up. 

and i commend them for there strength... maybe the hamases honesty and the IDF's strength is what the Palestine's and the Israel's need to forge into one to bring peace on that land

saying that every Jewish person over the age of 18 is a soldier is simply ridicules and is Hate talk.

Trying to justify the killing of innocents over the age of 18.

Nothing justifies killing. Not revenge, nor land or faith. Life is the one thing all religions see as sacred so if you believe in any of these 1000 year old scribblings

then you should honer the life that was given to you and your fellow man above all.

for we are Gods creations and the holiest on this planet more holly then any carved up stone. (carved by the hands of man not god)

so Break open the borders and let our fellow man mix, because that is the only way to end this conflict unite Palestine and Israel into one. so all will have a right to pray and its ancient city's.

I know very little of the rules of this forum as i am quite a beginner. I only have one comment. It seems to me after very superficial research that Hamas is a political organization with militant wings, which implies that not all Hamas members are militant. Rather, from their charter and western sources they are represented as a Islamic group interested first and foremost in the establishment of a theological Palestinian state. It is not for Wiki "posters" (if that is the used term) to decide that this implies the obliteration of Israel, or that it implies anythin other than the establishment of an Islamic Palestinian State. If there is clear evidence that Hamas is intent on renaming Israel, or nuking it, or whatever we are supposed to believe is meant by "taking Israel off the map" please post this source rather than the much too biased and un scholarly article in the Guardian. I thought it was a joke, the article's logic is poor, its sources are not firsthand and its manipulation of unreferenced information for the "humorous" recomendations at the end of the article are a proof of this article's bias. It seems to me that the comment on getting Israel off the map is an assumption we do not have the right of making. Do maintain this debate, there are plenty of sources which better point to a Hamas militance. I am concerned about the lack of scholarly support for Hamas on the internet, anybody know of the educated stance of Hamas?. Kobaincito 12/29/06

Hamas-PLO relations

Could someone please add some information on Hamas-PLO relations, with the Palestinian Authority and with Fatah in general? It helps give context on the role of Hamas in the Palestinian struggle. 66.166.247.162 18:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)Jason

Propagandist?

Other nations, movements and companies all use public relations firms to bolster their image, why would it be any different for Hamas? I changed the term 'propagandist' to 'PR firm'.

It was "Spin Doctor" before. . .

Soon the Spin Doctors will join Misplaced Pages. Zeq 19:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

But it is obvious spin doctors are here. Anyone interested in making political points in defense of a favorite country or ideology or ethnic affinity - at the expense of the truth - is a spin doctor. If I had to cite a single example of what is wrong with Misplaced Pages, I would point to this one, and the inability of Misplaced Pages to cope with the constant deletes and edits by a handfull of fanatical ideologues whose two-fold agenda - demonizing Hamas at any cost and deleting any contributions that present Hamas in two-dimensional, honest light - prevents this article from being even remotely useful. ]

Spin Doctor is considered an acceptable term in the UK, though parties don't use the term to refer to their own people, they do for those of the other parties.

Spin is a perjorative term. As such, the comment seems to be overly POV. Justin Eiler 14:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hamas forms new government in Palestine

We'll need some information on Hamas winning the election. When I added this information it was subsequently deleted by Pecher with this as the reason "removed anonymous unsourced POV edit on government". I didn't bother to souce it because it is being carried by every major new organization in the world today. I guess Pecher just believes this is a conspriacy theory happening. Please check any large newspaper in the world first before deleting truth.

So something that represents Hamas as being the new democratically elected representative government of the Palestinian people is in order. Correct me if this isn't the case, i.e. if they were not elected by the Palestinian people. Your personal wish they were not elected is not part of our reality here.

Actually, your statement at the time made was incorrect and merely speculation. Official election results are not reported until 48hrs after the close of polls. A statement should not be made until that time. I believe preliminary results were not even announced until noon EST. Simply because newspaper's say it does not make it true. Also, your wording was flawed. Something along the lines of "ruling political party" or "majority" etc, would be more appropriate. In the U.S., simply because the Republican Party has control over the Senate and Presidency, we do not term it officially the "Republican Government" or something similar. I know that in some Parliamentary systems terms such as conservative or liberal government are used, but I do not feel this is applicable in the case of Fatah vs. Hamas. Finally, the way you phrased it was repetitive which is at least stylistically not good, and at best biased in favor of overrepresenting or over emphasizing the "democratic" nature of their rise to power. I agreed with Pecher's edit at the time. (ImagoDei 21:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Actually I have to say that your statement about the "goverment" is wrong Imago, I often hear our current goverment in the United States refered to as the "Republican Goverment" or "the Conservative Goverment" as well as the "Bush Administration" etc. it's common and although you may not agree unilateral editing is not the answer in this case, disucssion is.

You make no logical comparison or assault on any of the statements I made, the least of which is the controlling statement regarding timeframe. I said officially. What is often heard (and I made allowance for this in my statement) is not what appears in the introduction to an encyclopedic entry. Hamas is now the ruling party, their members occupy the seats of government, but Hamas is not the government. Do not make the mistake of equivocation. Unless the entire structure of government is replaced or changed, it is not considered a change in the overall government, merely which party's policies are controlling. We do not refer to the conservative government in the U.S. with a capital C, I was referring to Canada's recently elected Conservative Party. The Palestinian government was not previously oficially referred to as the Fatah government. Fatah Movement or other times would be more applicable. Terms like Bush Administration are not at all parallel to the statement you inserted. Also, the President is not a member of Hamas. Your unilateral edit was incorrect on multiple levels and I almost took the action Pecher did. If it is still not clear, I am happy to continue to point out why I agreed and still agree with Pecher's edit. (ImagoDei 23:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Not everything revolves around the US. Palestine is based on a parliamentary system such as Canada where it is very common to say 'The Liberal Government' where the word 'Liberal' is a political party in Canada (i.e. the 'Liberal' party). So maybe instead of saying 'government' in this article saying, 'The Hamas Government' would be more exacting?

Lock this Article down.

This is getting out of hand.

I read today about the election. I wanted to come to a trusted source of information. I came to wikipedia only to find this article under attack by propagandist.

You mean lock it down after your changes are made? You shouldn't come to Misplaced Pages for minute by minute information unless you expect some churn. There is a thread (right above this one) that deals with the election play by play if you want to add something.

Hamas Charter

I suggest we get rid of the charter section entirely: It's a waste of space to include giant chunks of the organization's founding charter in what is, after all, supposed to be an encyclopedia article. If people think it's necessary to mention the charter, it can probably be summarized in a paragraph. We can link to the Avalon Project's full translation of the charter (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm) at the bottom, in the external links section...jackbrown 19:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

talks about the manifesto of the Hamas party not the organization. The Hmasa charter was not changed, and it's spokepeople repeated that it will not be changed. For the Election, they formed a party called "Change and Reform" that did not include on it's party platform ("manifesto") the call to anihilate Israel in teh name of Islam. However, on the day the election were over some Hamas Cheifs started to call the party "Change Reforem and Resistence" - to those who understand Arabic that sais it all. Zeq 19:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

This guy Zek is totally out of control. What is the point of contributing ANYTHING to Misplaced Pages if one obsessed zionist fanatic can delete everything?

And as attached as we are to the 'remove Israel from the map' phrase, I think it should be removed in it's present form because this footnote was a VERBAL quote from the former wheelchair bound leader who Israel assasinated. It is not the stated goal of the democratically elected government of Palestine.

This article is not about the Palestinian goverment. Hamas stated golas are spelled out clearly in it's charter. Zeq 19:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

--Zeq, this is like insisting that the only discusable goals of the US are those spelled out in the Monroe Doctrine. Countries and movements and ideologies grow and change and adapt, and Hamas is no exception. For years its leaders have been making this important pragmatic distinction between Israel and the occupied territories and the different nature of the struggle as it pertains to each of these. You can keep deleting every single reference I post that makes this assertion, but it does nothing to further to truth to blindly insist, all evidence to the contrary, that the goal of Hamas is only, or simply, or in any meaningful sense, the destruction of Israel. It is you who are attempting not to rewrite history, but to negate it. The qworld does not have to conform to your adamant desire to see hamas as a one-dimensionally evil anti-semitic hate group. anomalous

I try to keep this as an encyclopedia and not a blog of how you see Hamas. Why don't wait 2-3 days, see where hamas is heading and at that time edit this artyicle. You can use the time to learn how Misplaced Pages works. It has rulls and ways of doing things. For example you can sign your name after you make a comment so that people will know who said what. Zeq 20:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

ZEQ - I would say the same. This is not your personal blog. please stop using your own evident personal contempt for Hamas to obstruct others from filling out the one-dimensional parody you are insisting on presenting. Anomalous

Zeq, are you saying that Hamas has nothing to do with being the government of Palestine? I suggest turning on the tv to see otherwise, or reading any major newpaper to see otherwise.

I am saying that this an article about Hamas. They won the election. They have not yet took power. Don't assume you can rewrite all of history. This is NOT you flog. Zeq 19:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The only way to turn "what currently is the state of Israel" into islamic theocracy is by destoying Israel first, of course there is a peacefull conversion through persuasion, which Hamaz doesn't seem to be doing. Also, that Hamas has been elected to the government of Palestine, doesn't make it any less antagonistic towards Israel, it is actually more reflective of Palestenians who voted for them. Jeffsnill, January 26, 2006 at 20:09:35 UTC

If you look at the entry for the likud party there is no mention that they have "as their stated goal" the destruction/abortion of palestine and the forcible removal or murder of it's inhabitants. All there is is a meak little reference to how most of it's members support "settlements." Although there are no out and out lies on this page there is clearly a heavy slant against hamas--the "destruction of israel is their stated goal" is talking point #1 for zionists(israeli imperialists) and zionist apologists. It's sad, because there could be a interesting analysis of hamas here.Lampajoo 14:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

And the connection to this article is ... Please feel us in. This is the Hamas page. The Hmas charter is a fundemntal part in their idology. The Hamas won 76/132 seats in the palestinian parliment. Likud has about 12/120 (was 40/120) from the israeli knesset. Likud Prime minister has removd Gaza settlments so if you want to talk about Likud go to that article. At least one good thing I can tell you: You will not find me there. I could not care less about Likud. Zeq 14:43, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I only brought up the likud to illustrate the level of bias HERE. Compare and contrast.Lampajoo 15:08, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with first comment. Charter should certainly be quoted, extensively if really need, but isn't that too much, especially since there's a wikisource link to read the whole text? It only makes a subsection which quick readers skip, instead of reading a quick, well-done (not more than one short paragraph) resume of the Charter. Don't worry, everybody knows Hamas is an Islamic group and against Israel! Tazmaniacs

If you want a section on the Hamas Charter, that section has to be a summary of what the Hamas Charter contains. Instead, what we have here is a selection of quotes meant to push a certain arguement, that being that Hamas does not recognize Israel. There are two options which can be taken to make this section NPOV. The article needs to be rewritten or expanded such that it accurately graps ALL of the Charter, with references not only to its policies towards Israel, but its social and economic policies and ambitions as well. Since the majority of Hamas' efforts are directed to domestic efforts and not terrorist activities, those aspects of its charter should not be shoved aside. The other option of course is to provide the link to the charter which can easily be read by anyone remotely interested in the document. I'd opt for the second, since a comprehensive and NPOV summary of the charter would consume alot of space, despite not being really necessary in an encyclopedic entry. Amibidhrohi 19:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

To Anomalous

This is not your blog. or flog.

You want to claim that Hamas no longer want the destruction of Israel 0- fine, propese this change here in talk, discuss it with other editors, don't call them names like zionist (or mad zionist) and we can move on. You are new so learn the rules. Zeq 19:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Anomalous, you are new so I will not hold it against you. You can not write things like "as of ... apear etc." this is an encyclopdia. You don't put in the first paragrpah your thoughts. This is not a Blog of Flog. Please change it back and discuss changes here. Zeq 20:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Zeq, why should I bother changing anything back? You have already - virtually instantly - deleted many times over any changes I have ever made, any links I have provided, any quotes from Hamas leaders I have offered to challenge or flesh out your one-dimensional account of this complex and changing group. Every contribution i have ever made has been completely nullified by you and in its place you reinstate your mantras about Hamas and the destruction of Israel. User:Anomalous

No. Not my Mantra. Hamas mantra. Why don't you listen to them. This is a sensitive time and I hope they will indeed change but you can not take election promises. let's wait and see. The test will be in officialy changing the charter 9so far they did not) and in their actions. Zeq 21:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Remember that while Hamas is a very religious organization, there is a very religious reason why an Islamic group would want Israel. Jerusalem is sacred to them as well. Personally, I think that there is some way to negotiate things, but I don't live there so I can't speak for them. It is possible that this area is not negotiable. In either case, it is not the United States' business who won in a democratic election. It is our business if our allies are attacked by another country as a whole, which has yet to even be threatened by the new political leaders themselves. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

Zeq, you need to respond to my points regarding your quotation from the Guardian. "It is their stated goal to...." etc... is simply NOT true in the manner you try to represent it. I do not agree with personal attacks, but you are representing yourself as a Zionist with little interest in objective truth. Please respond to the point that the point the Guardian makes is not first hand corroboration, but rather a reference by a third party in a secondary source. The burden of proof is on you. See my statements above in the original discussion regarding your edits. You are simply not responding to criticism in a rational fashion. Whether this is by choice or through lack of comprehension of what that Guardian article actually states, you need to take responsibility for your actions and stop unilaterally overruling the majority on this topic. The statement is inciting rhetoric not representative of Hamas' aims. You can say that "Hamas leaders have been known to call for wiping Isreal off the map" or something similar, but do not generalize these statements beyond the individual. I do not want to elevate this to the process of dispute resolution but you have so far been completely nonresponsive. (ImagoDei 22:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

For some reason, I'm getting an impression that ImagoDei is partial towards Zionists. Of course if you think Zionists are people “with little interest in objective truth”, and overall is a derogatory term, that would be ok. This, however, would cast a shadow on ImagoDei’s own objectivity. Jeffsnill January 26, 2006 at 22:42:52 UTC

I read that like 3 times and don't get it. I don't think you said what you meant to. Oops! (ImagoDei 23:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

ImagoDei, you are using Zionist as a bad word, it's as if I said, you are acting like an Arab with little interest in objective truth. That shows that you apparently don't like Zionists, hense your POV.--Jeffsnill 00:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

But then I'd be partial AGAINST Zionists, which is not what you said. But since you clarified; my statement was made in the context of the derrogatory fashion the term was used earlier, recognizing its insulting intent but not replicating it. I do not represent myself as anything, but representing yourself as a Zionist (regardless of positive or negative connotations of the term) is inappropriate in the context of Misplaced Pages. Personal views should not influence the edits made to an article. If you'd read my posts carefully, you would see that I am attempting in fact to mask my overwhelming bias toward and support for Israel against organizations like Hamas by treating Hamas as fairly and objectively as possible. I believe the only responsible way to regard an organization so negatively is to give them every benefit of the doubt. My personal bias would actually support the inclusion of the slandering statements against Hamas. (ImagoDei 00:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC))

POLL: Its stated goal is to "remove Israel from the map"

It is my contention this statement is simply wrong, rhetoric with inherent bias, POV, and the source used is hearsay and speculative. It is not a statement made by an individual with first hand knowledge, but rather one made by a third party non-member of Hamas about what people in Hamas may have said in the past. This does not constitute a stated goal of an organization. Zeq has continually reverted this claim against several editors protests. I ask that people contribute their opinion as to whether or not this line is appropriate. I state that it needs to be removed and quickly. It should simply state that their goal is an islamic theocracy occupying isreal, west bank, etc.... Wiping or removing from the map while the result of actually instituting an islamic theocracy is political rhetoric not relevant to encyclopedic entry. It is the logically necessary effect of their stated goal, but not actually their stated goal. This is an important distinction to make. Please vote. (ImagoDei 22:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

I guess on balance I agree that giving this statement such top and repeated billing is probably needlessly inflammatory, or needlessly buying into Hamas's most florid oratory, rather than the organization's real goals, which are certainly more limited. Like all parties of its ilk, it seeks to Islamize society (whatever that means in an overwhelmingly muslim context), and its specific case, also seeks to resist the Israeli occupation. The wiping Israel from the map stuff is, as everyone involved actually knows, just rhetoric to make the masses happy. Hamas is at some point going to settle down and settle for the Green Line borders, as its leaders have endlessly hinted. So I guess on balance I agree with ImagoDei that we should either get rid of it or at least downgrade the statement's hysterical and repeated top billing.jackbrown 18:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

What ImagoDei calls "logically necessary effect of their stated goal" is in fact a goal that was stated implicitly. It’s like saying Jack only stated that he wants to blow Joe’s brains out, so we cannot say that he actually wants to kill Joe, because “It is the logically necessary effect of their stated goal, but not actually their stated goal.” Another example of Hamas making statements supporting this goal is their targeted attacks on the Israeli civilians. Jeffsnill Thursday, January 26, 2006 at 22:20:23 UTC

Jeffsnill, for now I'll accept your statement regarding the implicit nature of this result. Two definitions: 1) Stated: declared: declared as fact; explicitly stated. 2) Implicit: Implied though not directly expressed; inherent in the nature of something. These were found using "definition ______" on Google where _____ is "stated" or "implicit". The line Zeq repeatedly re-inserts claims to represent the explicit stated goals, not implications or results. There is thus an unavoidable logical contradiction and the line should be removed.

Also, your analogy is not sound as "blowing brains out" is a destructive process as is "killing." However, the statement "establish an islamic theocracy" is creative whereas "remove from the map" is destructive. Analogies must have parallel structure. Yours does not. While Hamas' policies on what conduct is possible in pursuit of its goals leaves no question as to their ability to cause destruction, to misrepresent their stated goals is to slander an organization that is already reprehensible in the strongest possible terms. This is irresponsible, erroneous, and clearly the work of bias. Finally, I do not agree that their tactics qualify as "statements" regarding their goals and your qualification of it as such demonstrates your POV. As above these are implicit not explicit. Furthermore, to us it is terrorism, to them it is war against those who have taken from them. This is a topic on which we must tread lightly. (ImagoDei 23:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

ImagoDei, That Hamas is not using exact wording that you wish them to, doesn’t make it any less explicit. Likewise you can say that Hamas doesn’t wish to “establish an Islamic theocracy in Israel”, because they don’t have a phrase “establish an Islamic theocracy in Israel” written in their charter, but instead it is all written in Arabic, and whatever you translated in English is only an inference based on the equivalence of the English and Arabic terms. And such equivalence is not one-to-one and can also be disputed.

Your assertion about establishment of the Islamic theocracy in the Jewish state being a “creative process” is not valid, as such establishment would require a prior destruction of the state of Israel. I could agree with you if Hamas was trying to establish an Islamic theocracy by proselytizing Islam among the Israelis. This, however, is clearly not the case. Hamas is engaged in murder of innocent civilians, quite destructive process, I’d say. It also betrays your POV, turning Jewish stat into Islamic may be called creative by islamist, but destructive by jewists. I can modify the analogy, Jack doesn’t want to kill Joe (in any destructive fashion), he only wants to ESTABLISH (don’t you like the euphemism) a bullet in his brain.

Also, the fact that terrorists think that what they are doing is right (war against those who have taken from them) doesn’t make them any more right. As most common criminals think that they do what they think is right.--Jeffsnill 23:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

If most common criminals believed what they were doing to be right, they would not be able to be convicted and instead would be institutionalized under a plea of insanity on the basis of inability to differentiate between right and wrong. Criminals know what is right and wrong, they just often choose to ignore that.

I am not making any argument in regard to Hamas' wording, I am making the argument against Zeq's wording. His wording is inaccurate and incorrect in this language, english, his complete comprehension of which I am not convinced. Establish an Islamic theocracy is not a sourced quotation. It is a paraphrase or interpretative statement. Zeq insists on the use of a quotation that is NOT FROM Hamas. However, it is positioned in such a way as though it appears to be. This is misleading and why the implict/explicit is relevant.

As Anamolous posted below, that is not actually true and many Hamas leaders would be happy with 1967 borders and locations. Hamas chooses targets indescriminantly because of Israel's mandatory conscription. Furthermore, arguments regarding the use of total war could be made as well, but I am not here to get into an argument about their tactics. I agree they are abhorrent and their violent approach needs to change. However, that does not justify making simply false statements about them. "Engaged in the murder of innocent civilians" is POV so stop trying to read into my statements. You, as demonstrated in the section above, have completely missed where my sentiments lie. You once again miss the point of the errors I point out in your logical statements. There is no direct benefit to Jack by having the bullet in Joe's head. But there is a direct benefit to Hamas of having an Islamic theocracy. Creative/destructive may not have been the clearest way to state it because you missed the importance of the link to the initiator of the action. You are once again changing the paradigm to focus the perspective on outcome or effects. You must keep your perspective immobile throughout the entire analogy. If this is not clearer, look up logic and the relevant ensuing links. I may be missing something but I need to run to a screening. More later if you'd like. Also, stop thinking of me as an islamist radical. It won't get you anywhere, I'm from New York and a staunch supporter of the Israeli state, I am simply smart enough not to let those emotions influence my intellectual assessments.

Your assertion about criminals is simply not true. No reputable resource defines insanity as inability to differentiate between right and wrong. If criminals thought that doing a crime is wrong they wouldn’t be committing it. They may think that it’s wrong for someone else to commit it, but it is certainly right for them to. The is what the whole concept of “Justification” or “Excuse” is all about. Any criminal can find an excuse. Why did you rob that 7-eleven? Because I really needed the money, that’s why I deserved it, that’s why it was right. (In general stealing is wrong, but look at my complicated childhood, my life’s hardships, and those big rich capitalists owning 7-eleven corporation, if not for them my life probably wouldn’t be as miserable). Why did you beat up your wife? Because she's a bitch, and as such she deserved to be beaten up, that's why it was right for me to beat her up. Why Why did Nazis have to murder 6 million Jews? Because they were destroying Arian nation and stealing money, that’s why getting rid of them was a right thing to do. Yes, in general murder is wrong, but murdering Jews is right.

Wording is also ok, because, actions speak louder then words. Whatever ambiguity exists about the official pronunciation of Hamas’ goals, it is clarified by their acts of murder of Israelis. Likewise, no official charter of Nazis called for Gassing and Burning of Jews, it just happened to be something that they did. Hamas may be careful in its official statements, but they action leave very little room for interpretation.

“Engaged in the murder of innocent civilians” accurately describes Hamas. Since they murder innocent civilians (I don’t know what else to add here). The fact that Israel has a mandatory general conscription is irrelevant, they are still innocent civilians. Unless you are talking about “Minority Report”-style executing criminals before they have committed a crime, on this even Stephen Spielblerg would disagree with you. AND you will have to assume that every conscripted Israeli is commiting a crime against Palestenian(s).

Also you have a concept of tactics/goal totally upside down. Getting rid of Israelis is Hamas’ goal, not tactic--Jeffsnill 01:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I am done discussing this with you. I provided you ample opportunity to argue logically, rationally and state your points. You are compelled by your emotions, simply being difficult, or stupid. No matter which, you are resorting to an 8th grade understanding of sophisticated concepts and I will not be drawn down to your level. You have no concept of criminal action, no understanding of logic, and no comprehension of the situation. Your assessment of criminal behavior is uneducated and uninformed. Criminals usually consider their actions to be morally wrong, but are compelled to them for many of the reasons you stated. This does not make them right in their minds. Actions do not speak louder than words when you are discussing what a group states it does. You separate the two, Hamas says this vs. Hamas does this. No one claims the Nazi party stated its intention was to kill all jews, instead we say the NSDAP attempted in its later years a final solution to what it considered the "Jewish Question." This was extermination. Finally, it is by no means Hamas' goal to kill all Jews which you basically stated in your last line. It is their goal to create a government occupying certain lands. I doubt they care what happens either way to the Jewish people. If they do, it is only in so much as they are angry with the Western imposition of rule. Simply, you have no idea what you are talking about. You have not successfully opposed or even comprehended a single point I have made. Goodluck, unless someone sources the quote from the co-founder of Hamas, I'm deleting it tomorrow morning. (ImagoDei 05:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC))

Ok, I’m skipping the first 6 sentences, as pure ad hominem. Criminals do think that what they do is right, what you call “compelling reasons” is essentially their way of justification of their actions. Nazis knew that murder is wrong, so in order to legitimize murder of Jews they had to declare them all lower race/parasites. Hamas does the same thing. They know that murder is wrong, but in order to legitimize murder of all Israelis (young and old, man and women) they are all labeled occupiers of the Palestinian land, where, of course, the Palestinian land is the very land on which they live. It’s kind of like Jack saying that murder, in general, is wrong, except in the case of my neighbor Joe, who thinks that he lives in his own house, but he actually lives in my house.

The peace will come when Palestinians realize that murder is always wrong, even with Israelis. (I’m skipping the rest of your ad hominem)

If you think that words are more important than actions here’s a simple test for you: If you had a choice, would you prefer that someone speaks badly to you, or acts badly towards you?Jeffsnill 09:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

folllowing posted by Anomalous

Hamas leaders, including its most prominent ones such as Rantisi and Yassin, have made offers of an indefinate, decades long truce with Israel in echange for a complete end of Occupation. This is not consistent with the claim that their goal is to wipe Israel off the map. It is instead consistent with a pragmatic organization which is sticking in principle to the fundamental RIGHTNESS and justice of their cause while effectively abandoning pursuit of those goals which they feel are not practically attainable. In 1987 and again in 1989 Sheikh Yassin stated "I do not want to destory Israel...We want to negotiate with Israel so the Palestinian people inside and outside Palestine can live in Palestine. Then the problem will cease to exist." (Interview, Al-Nahar (Jerusalem, 30 April 1989. Quoted in Abu Amr, Islamic Fundamentalism, p. 76.)

In March 1988 Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahhar explicitly told Shimon Peres in a personal meeting that an Israeli withdrawl to the 1967 borders would be followed on Hamas' part by a permanent negotiated settlement. He told the same thing to then Defense Minsiter Rabin in June 1989.

Hams political Bureau leader Abu Marzuq released an official statement on behalf of Hamas in early 1994 reiterating Yassin's offer. This offer has been consistently reaffirmed since 1994 by Yassin, Ismail Abu Shanab, Mahmoud Zahhar, Abdel-aziz Rantisi, Osama Hamdan, Hasan Yusif and others.

In October 2002, Rantisi, before his assassination by israeli death squad, stated "The intifada is about forcing Israel's withdrawal to the 1967 boundaries." He added that "this doesn't mean that the Arab-Israeli conflict will be over" but that its military component would end.

Hamdan said, on August 22, 2003, that "Hamas is clear in terms of the historical solution and an interim solution. We are ready for both: the borders of 1967, a state, elections, an agreement after 10-15 years of building trust."

When asked what Hamas would do if the Palestinian people clearly and definitively supported a 2-state solution on the 1967 borders, Zahhar said: "Hamas will never go against the will of the Palestinian people." (Interview at UNSCO HQ, Gaza City, May 19, 2002).

Hamas is clear that they do not accept Israel's demand that they affirm that Israel has any kind of "right" to any portion of Palestine. But basically what Hamas offers, after an end to occupation, is an agreement to not stand in the way of other parties resolving the conflict through a two-state solution. This is entirely consistent with the international consensus on how to resolve this conflict.

-- posted by user Anomalous, whose every attmepted addition or alteration to this article has been instantly deleted by Zeq.

• To Anomalous: Look again, in many places where you tried to compromise I reciprocated. do you need specific links to your own edit that are still in the article despite your claim that they are gone ? I also offered compromises myself in hope you will play along. You can not turm an encyclopedia into your own one side biased blog/flog.

• To ImagoDei: I fail to see what you are "polling" about. The hmas golas are spelled out clearly in it's charter: To remove Israel and replace it with an Islamic theocarcy. One in the Guardian described it "wipe Israel off the map" - this is the quote. If you think it is wrong complain to the guardian (a pro-plaestinina paper) If you think there are other POV - feel free to source andpresent them.

Zeq 10:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

• TO ZEQ - ImagoDei does not need to source other POVs because i have already done that extensively. I have provided many quotes, much more reliable than the one you provide, which is a "so-and-so-says that supposedly Rantisi once said on the radio". That is a completely inappropriate reference to be using in the way you do. How would you like me to have a quote in the intro paragraph to the article on Israel in which it says the goal of israel is to extreminate the Palestinians, because someone claims that he once heard Moshe Dayan saying that at a dinner party 30 years ago? This is the equivalent of what you are doing. Immediately above here are many quotes from Rantisi and others which completely contradict the one you beliggerently insist on inserting over and over into this article. There is one from Sheikh Yassin himself saying "I do not want to destory Israel...We want to negotiate with Israel so the Palestinian people inside and outside Palestine can live in Palestine. Then the problem will cease to exist." This is the exact opposite of the claim you insist on making. Your determination to demonzie HAMAS is preventing this article from approaching anythign near honesty or credibility or partiality. You keep saying "where's the proof" - it's righ tin fornt of your eyes, but you not only refuse to look, you are preventing anyone else from seeing by constantly deleting everything but the phantasmagorically evil boogeyman version of Hamas which you insist on imposing on this article. anomalous

Anomalous, Gardian is a newspaper of a record, not so and so. Whatever ambiguity may exist about Hamas’ motives, they disappear when they murder innocent civilians. Jeffsnill 21:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

While hamas definitely has killed civilians they aren't necessary innocent civilians. Can we do without the unintellectual "these people are evil and these people are completely good" talk? Also, how does killing people remove ambiguity from someone's motives? Given that terrorism is violence which is committed not for it's own sake but for the psychological effect that it has on others it's not as easy to analyze the intentions of terrorists as other practioners of violence. If someone kills someone in a robbery then it's pretty clear what their intention was, but not in this case.Lampajoo 15:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Since you wrote that the victims "hamas killed aren't .. innocent civilians" I will knowingly break a wikipedia rule and comment on you instead of what you wrote. You know what ? In a second thought, I will not break this policy and just say: that this is an evil statment to say something like this on innocent school children or families in a pizze place that are murdred by a terrorist. I have nothing more to say to you if you can not even acokowledge that hamas killed hundreds of innocent civilians. Zeq 16:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be just as accurate to say that hamas' stated goal is to return Palestine to it's historical position of being under moslem control. This would also be much more illuminating to the entire situation since it explains why hamas cares so much. Or perhaps it could be said that, "hamas' stated goal is the removal of jewish colonists from the levant." Lampajoo 14:47, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

To Lampajoo, First of all there is nothing "unintellectual" about good and evil. In fact, denying the existance of the good in evil is unintellectual. Murdering innocent civillians removes ambiguity from Hamas' motive because they are not doing it by accident, they are trying to murder as many Israelis as possible. Your analogy with robbery is poor, because robber steals to get his loot. Hamas are killing people to kill people. Jeffsnill 06:23, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Why no mention of the fact HAMAS run hospitals and schools?

Why no mention of the fact HAMAS run hospitals and schools? this is the most biased article on wikipedia at the moment. hamas run schools and hospitals in palastine, they are a political wing.

Hospitals and schools to Hamas are what Volkswagen and Autobahns to Nazis. Surely those were the good things that they have initiated, but they are not they main source of their “popularity”.--Jeffsnill 23:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The analogy is deplorable. On what basis do you make that claim? Even most Israeli experts on this subject would not make such outrageous assertions. --Anomalous

Anomalous, I'm not sure what you meant by the word "Even" when applied to Israeli experts. Are you saying that "....Even <the stupidest and ignorant> Israeli experts ...." ? Because if you do, it sounds like POV.--Jeffsnill 00:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Jeffsnill, are you joking? First, usually whenever anyone brings the Nazis into an analogy, we all end up stupider for it. Second, to not realize that those are most likely the reason for their recent political victory is simple ignorance. No one in Palistine likes the helicopter missile strikes that inevitably follow suicide bombings. Troll somewhere else. This is a valid question regarding the completeness and perspective of the article. (ImagoDei 23:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

To your first point - no we don't end up stupider. Your second statement about the helicopter missle strikes is a non-sequitur. Third betrays your emotions, and to the last one I have responded, in my initial responce that you didn't like--Jeffsnill 00:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there some sort of theory about the use of Nazi analogies on the internet? Anyway, yeah, that is BS. Total shite. Joe 23:40, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Finally someone with the "real" intelligence --Jeffsnill 00:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The following quote is from Shaul Mishal and Avraham Sela: "Hamas is a movement identified with Islamic fundamentalism and murderous suicide bombings. It is this Islamic viison, combined with its nationalist claims and militancy towards Israel, that accounts for the prevailing image of Hamas as an ideologically intransigent and poltiically rigid movement, ready to pursue its goals at any cost, with no limits or constraints. A close scutiny of Hamas' roots and its record since its establishment at the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising in December 1987, however, reveals that contrary to this description, it is esssentially a social movement. As such, Hamas has directed its energies and resources PRIMARILY (my emphasis) toward providing services to the community, especially responding to its immediate hardships and concerns." (Mishal & Sela, "The Palestinian Hamas: Vision, violence & coesitence", Columbia University Press, 2000). Mishal is a professor of Political Science at Tel Aviv University and Sela is professor of Middle Eastern Studies at Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace, at the Hebrew Univerity of Jeruselem. Shaul Mishal in particular is generally accepted as being among the world's foremost authorities on HAMAS. What are YOUR qualifications for asserting that (a) "Hospitals and schools to Hamas are what Volkswagen and Autobahns to Nazis" and (b) "these good things that they have initiated they are not they main source of their “popularity”? -- posted by ]

This all would sound very impressive, except for the fact that Hamas also murders innocent civilians. Likewise you can dig up a pile of professors who would like to focus on the grass-roots campaign of the Nazis in prewar Germany. The usage of the word “primary” may only be indicative of how they allocate their effort, without focusing on their murderous nature. Similarly one could say that Mafia is “primarily” concerned with running whatever business it is running, and murder is just something that happens every now and then.

I’m not sure if your “qualifications” question is relevant, since I am only stating the obvious facts. Hamas murders innocent civilians, and the fact that they care about Palestinian infrastructure, well ... that’s very cute ... --Jeffsnill 00:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The government of Israel, unlike Hamas, DOES in fact murder civilians on a daily basis. Upwards of 3,500 Palestinian civilians have been killed in the last 2,000 or so days, and more than ten times that numbe rof civilians wounded. Would you accept that Misplaced Pages talk about Israel in the way that you are now talking about Hamas? Simply based on Israel's track record of targeting civilians, it would certainly be far more appropriate than what you are saying about Hamas, which has in FIVE YEARS carried out a total of 58 suicide bombings. You need to suspend your personal malice and try to look at this matter objectively. User: Anomalous

Great, this page is now turning into HAMAS propaganda piece. Why don'tyou stop playing with numbers and read Hamas covenant. They murder Israelis - the more the merrier - to make what they call Palestine (a never-existed country with undefined borders), Judenfrei. That is why they kill Israelis wherever they can find them, including pizerrias, schoolbuses and discos. The IDF on the other hand, performs the role of the police (instead of the PNA, unwilling to keep their own committments under the Oslo and the Roadmap) to prevent more murders. ←Humus sapiens 01:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Israel is not targeting Palestenian civilians. It is something they are trying to avoid at all costs. If they wanted to murder Palestinians, they could simply bomb them the WWII style, and have every Palestenian dead in couple of days. Hamas, on the other hand, is targeting Israeli civilians and that’s what makes them murderers.--Jeffsnill 01:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Understand how much POV there is in your statements, then come back. Both sides murder innocent people. Both sides do terrible things. Both need to learn to live in peace with eachother. Stop acting as though one is worse than the other. Objectively they're both atrocious and neither are going anywhere. Stop your rhetoric and propaganda. This is a place for facts. (ImagoDei 06:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC))

ImagoDei, the POV is in your statement. You would like to equate aggressors to their victims. As murder, by definition, assumes that you intend to kill someone who’s innocent. Israelis have no such intention. The only innocents that are killed by Israelis, are those who accidentally ended up in the line of fire. Similarly during the WWII there were a number of German civilians were accidentally killed by the American and British forces. It didn’t, however, make them murderers. (read more on Zeq’s note on Targeting).

This is why you cannot equate both sides, and say that they both do terrible things. The only terrible thing that Israel is doing is trying to defend herself.

The only side that has to learn how to live in peace with the other is Palestenians. For as soon as they stop blowing up Israelis, the Israelis will stop retaliating back at them, and there will be peace. So, ImagoDei, stop your rethoric and propaganda. This is a place for facts.--Jeffsnill 09:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with ImagoDei about what both sides are doing. But there is an important fact:

What is each side Targeting

Israel has not delibertly target buses, resturants etc... Israel, like any other army in the world has, while fighting militants in the area of civilian population made various actions that resulted in killing of civilians. Some of those can be considered "war crimes" since they fail to protect civilians. But israel has not delibertly targeted buses and resturants and there is the difference, as well as in stated goals. Zeq 06:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

So killing civilians with a suicide bomb is wrong but killing them with a rocket that was meant for a someone else who could have been simply arrested and convicted in court is ok? Lampajoo 15:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not ok, but it is not a murder, so long as you do everything possible to avoid innocent casualties.Jeffsnill 05:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

ABout the example of the US/UK collateral damage during WWii. The US was an imperial power seeking its fortune in colonizing the pacific. When the USSR won the war for them, the US, in a much better state for having barely fought the war pressed against the SOviet Union its colonial possesion of JApan and E. Germany. In any unbiased circle this is held as a pretty basic truth. It is only in the US that occupation can be equated as anything but imperialism. Similarly, the Israeli occupation of what was Palestinian land up until 1948 is another demonstration of colonialism, US colonialism through its ISraeli client state. It is no secret, and once again, only in anglo circles is occupation of a foreign territory excused as anything other than colonialism. Sadly, even the few individuals who have attempted the slow (but sure) way to truth, objectivity, by seeing both parties in equal terms and define diferences from there on, are being attacked as "propagandists". It is very sad that the small spectrum of thought allowed in the US has permeated into this wonderful site. Please remain open minded. The US likes to disprove comparisons with the Nazis (even though they steal land from many indigenous populations) because their bodycount is slightly lower than 6 mill. I suggest you use the same logic and compare Palestinian deaths by US missiles and bullets fired by the Israeli army to the deaths caused by individual suicide attacks. The terror is on the Israeli side, this is well known throughout the world, it is amusing to see once more US circles have a capacity for denying truths obvious to the world. Kobaincito

Vandalism

Can we get a "semi-protect" on this page to keep anons and new users from continually vandalizing it? Heck, I can't even keep up with reverts! Justin Eiler 23:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I fear the IP's listed on the page history. Another reason IP's shouldn't have the right to edit pages. We really have to keep an eye on this page.-Jersey Devil 00:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Fable Tennis

Phew!

My brothers in Wiki, thank you all for writing such an athletic set of exchanges. I was gripped by your ability to lob, smash and grunt through many kB of text: a real five-set thriller! I had to save it locally so I can watch again when rain stops play. My only complaint, however, is that some of the rallies went on too long; perhaps no-one had the killer edge?

--die Baumfabrik 04:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Here here. I want to shoot myself. (ImagoDei 06:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC))

You have thirty seconds...

The group is paying a spin doctor $180,000 (£100,000) to persuade Europeans and Americans that it is not a group of religious fanatics who relish suicide bombings and hate Jews. Yeah, I'm going to remove that in a few hours unless there's some really good reason why we should discuss a (quasi)-political organization's spin doctors in the opening sentences of the article. Sherurcij 13:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This is unencyclopedic.--68.211.68.122 13:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

based on Special:Contributions/68.211.68.122 this is a sockpuppet, of whom we can not tell now but he knows too much about wikipedia for this to be his 10th edit.

Disagree. Because those spin doctors may be on the internet (even right here in Misplaced Pages) trying to improve the organization image so it is good that the guardian exposed that and so should we show it . Zeq 15:31, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

While I understand the concerns about people pushing an agenda on Misplaced Pages, Spin (public relations) is solely a perjorative term in English usage. If the phrase can be reworded without a perjorative connotation, I'd welcome re-adding the information, but with the insulting connotation, I can't see it as anything but POV. Justin Eiler 15:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

How about "According to The Guardian, Hamas is engaging in an extensive media campaign to improve their image in European and American perceptions. " Justin Eiler 15:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

We should include it since the fact that Hamas is interested in its image in Europe and the US is relevant and helpful in understanding the group. Perhaps we should rewrite the sentence in a more encyclopedic way. We should also move the statement out of the 1st couple paragraphs. How about something like: "In January 2006, Hamas hired a media consultant to improve and soften its image in the West. 67.176.232.105 15:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I care about susbstnce not the exact wording. Anyone who want to rephrase it is welcome. Zeq 16:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism category

What is Hamas' inclusion in this category based on? Whose opinion is this? Who is making this accusation? Why isn't it attributed? --68.211.68.122 13:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Greetings,

While I agree that "anti-semitism" is not a very good word (because Arabs are also a Semitic people), it is the "standard" English word for hostility to the Jews as a race. (Misplaced Pages, Wiktionary, Answers.com) And it must be acknowledged that Hamas does not agree with the Jewish State in the Middle East. In using the word "Anti-semitic," the article is not expressing an "opinion," but one of the peculiarities of the English language. Justin Eiler 13:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"It must be acknowledged that Hamas does not agree with the Jewish State in the Middle East". Opposition to Israel is not anti-semitism. Israel is a political entity. Most of the world is opposed to the existence of Israel and they are not anti-semitic. --68.211.68.122 13:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your assertion that opposition to Israel is not necessarily anti-Semitic. But being against Jewish people is anti-semitic. Hamas wants to remove the Jewish people from Arab lands, not just the Government. They are not alone in their anti-Semitic beliefs as any Jew who wants to visit Saudia Arabia can testify. Anti-Semitism is an appropriate and probably wouldn't be argued by 99% of Hamas members.

I am not referring specifically to the state of Israel: Hamas is opposed to ANY Jewish state anywhere in the Middle East. Indeed, it must be acknowledged that Hamas seems to be opposed to any Jewish presence in the Middle East. As such, "Anti-semitism" is accurate. Justin Eiler 13:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Justin, this is a specious argument and also factualyl incorrect. If you actually READ the Covenant instead of skimming the parts that Zionists continually quote to try to "prove" that Hamas is an anti-semitic movement, you would find, for example, Article 31, "The Islamic Resistance Movement Is A Humanistic Movement" under the grouping "Our attitudes towards followers of Other religions." This article unamibiguously states: "The Islamic Resistance Movement ... takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other." It makes extremely clear throughout the charter that the target of its animosity is not Jews as such, but Zionism, Zionists, and the Zionist state. Jews are invited to remain in Palestine under Islamic rule. anomalous

Sorry. I disagree. Opposition to a jewish state in the Arab world is not anti-semitism. It's just your opinion so I am removing the category. Advocating the destruction of the jewish people would be anti-semitism. Hamas does not advocate that. --68.211.68.122 14:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Quoted from "The Charter of the Hamas", Hamas (US) website:

For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails.

According to Hamas, they are indeed opposed to the Jews, not solely to the state of Israel. Therefore, I must reject your assertion that they are not anti-semitic, and will restore the category.

Peace be with you. Justin Eiler 14:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

From an outside view, reading the definitions objection to Jewish people would be anti-Semitism while objection to a Jewish state would be anti-Zionism. What excatly does the Hamas charter say in regards to Jews living in the Middle East? Their position regarding a Jewish state is very clear, but I haven't seen any direct citations yet regarding their opinion on Jewish people in general. --StuffOfInterest 14:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just saw the quote from Justin which snuck in while I was editing. Based on that direct quote it would seem to put Hamas in there with anti-Semitism as they are referencing a battle against Jews in general rather than just Israel or a "Jewish state". --StuffOfInterest 14:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

That quote - would it be "the Jews" as in "the Jews everywhere, in every nation on earth" or "the Jews, the ones we mentioned in the previous sentences and paragraphs, and really shouldn't have to spell out in full who exactly we mean in every single sentence, because in context its bloodly obvious we are talking about Israel, and its only when some prejudiced twat takes the sentence entirely out of context to deliberately make it apear biased that you get prejudiced bollocks" ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.142.245 (talk • contribs) .

Note regarding category: At this point, any further reversions of the ] would violate the 3 Revert Rule. It is not my intent, however, to impose the category by force: I would prefer to reach consensus with all involved, including the anonymous contributor 68.211.68.122, and invite a continuation of this discussion before any further edits are made. Justin Eiler 14:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that Hamas' opposition to the state of Israel or any Jewish state on Muslim land is not anti-Semitic in and off itself. On the other hand their adoption of classic European anti-Semitic tropes such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (if this is correct, which off the top of my head I think it is) is enough to justify the category in my view. Palmiro | Talk 16:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Can someone deny that Italians are a nation, work to destroy Italy, and all the while claim that he is not an enemy of the Italian people because he doesn’t hate all Italians? The question is obviously absurd. If you deny Italian nationhood and any Italian right s to their homeland, and seek to destroy Italy, no matter how sincerely you may claim to love some Italians, you are an enemy of the Italian people. The same holds true for those who deny Jewish nationhood and the Jews’ right to their state, and who advocate the destruction of Israel. Such people are enemies of the Jewish people, and the term for their attitudes, even when espoused by people who sincerely like some Jews, is anti-Semitism.Dennisdrager 17:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Your analogy doesn't hold, google "Jews Against Israel", here's one result:
The reason for your analogy's fault is that Palestine is not the homeland of the jews, it's the homeland of the palestinians.
Guess who denied that Palestine is a nation?! Guess who was determined to destroy palestine and replace it with Israel?

Begging your pardon, but there is a considerable difference between "Jews against Israel" and "Jews against Zionism". Israel is a state: Zionism is a political ideology. To attempt to conflate the two is improper and grossly inaccurate. Justin Eiler 21:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Please, there is no point in us having the whole "is anti-Zionism equivalent to anti-Semitism" debate on this talk page. It is, to say the least, a highly disputed proposition and not one on the basis of which we can say Hamas is anti-Semitic while maintaining a neutral point of view. If the problem wiuth Hamas is that it rejects the state of Israel, then let's say that and people can conclude that that means they're anti-Semitic if they think that one implies the other.

However, there are other good reasons for saying Hamas is indeed anti-Semitic, which I don't think can be held to be merely matters of point of view or interpretation. Palmiro | Talk 22:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Zionism is the political ideology of Jewish nationalism that promotes the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state in the land of Palestine. There is no such thing as an Israel without Zionism so the two are root and branch of one tree. Hamas is opposed to the Jewish occupation of Palestine. That doesn't make them anti-semitic. Anti-semitism is an irrational hatred for Jews based on their ethnicity. Anti-Israeli anti-Zionsim is a rational opposition to a political ideology that discriminates against non-Jews. the analogy is to apartheid. Those opposed to apartheid are not anti-white. They are anti-racism. People opposed to Zionism are not anti-Jewish, they are anti-racist. --68.214.58.46 22:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hamas wants to remove Jews from the land as well. If it was just the government you would be correct, but is the government plus the jews that Hamas detests. That is anti-Semitism and I bet 99% of Hamas members would agree that their goal is to remove Jews from Arab lands. Tbeatty

Zionism is one political ideology of Jewish nationalism that promotes the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state in the land of Palestine. It is not the only political ideology that supports a state of Israel at its current location--thus your statement "There is no such thing as an Israel without Zionism so the two are root and branch of one tree" is without merit. It would be just as false to say that since Hamas has used violence against citizens (in violation of the Qur'an), all Palestinians are murtaddi.

Hamas has established that they are against the state of Israel--regardless of the political leanings (Zionist or not) of the Jews. Hamas has further used anti-semitic propaganda such as The Elder Protocols of Zion to propagate their message.

Hamas is not only against Zionism and Israel--Hamas is against the Jews. Justin Eiler 22:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

You feel qualified to speak for Hamas now? Where does Hamas say they are against all Jews and not just against Israelis? Hamas is against the Jewish military occupation of Palestine, not against Jews per se. And your arguments that Jewish colonization of palestine can occur outside of Zionism is totally specious. Any movement that propounds a Jewish homeland in Palestine is by definition Zionist. --68.214.58.46 23:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The State of Israel was established according to the 1947 UN Partition Plan in the area where the Jews constituted a majority in a small part of the Jewish National Homeland, the Land of Israel where the Jews had a long history of sovereignty and self-determination. To insist that the Jews, of all nations, don't deserve to govern themselves, is to express prejudice or hostitity towards them, this is antisemitism. BTW, the "occupation" battlecry doesn't work anymore because HAMAS wants the entire land Judenfrei. "HAMAS is anti-racist", LOL! Why not list them under category humantiarians. ←Humus sapiens 22:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of getting involved in yet another ghastly recurrence of the whole "anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic" v. "Zionism is racism" debate, let me just say that I'm not aware of Hamas objecting to the principle of the Jews governing themselves, as such. Their objection is to the alienation of Muslim lands, which according to their ideology can never be given over to non-Muslim rule. Obviously the consequence of this is opposition to the State of Israel - it would also imply opposition to a Christian state or a Druze state in the Middle East. And yes, this is a chauvinistic position from my point of view. But does it really constitute specifically anti-Jewish racism? In my opinion, Hamas is indeed anti-Semitic, but not on the grounds of its opposition to the existence of Israel.

More generally, (and apologies in advance for the tortured phrasing of this) would you agree with me that if I or you think that conclusion "x" follows naturally from observation "y", yet this assessment is widely disputed, an objective and fact-based approach is better served by simply stating observation "y" and leaving it to the reader to draw conclusion "x" or not, according to his own views? Or applied to this case: we agree that Hamas aspires (or says it aspires) to the elimination of the State of Israel. It is your opinion (and the opinion of many other people) that this is an anti-semitic position. Yet we also know that there are many people who would dispute the latter conclusion. Is it not better simply to state "Hamas is opposed to the existence of the State of Israel", and allow people who feel that that constitutes anti-Semitism to draw that conclusion for themselves, while people who don't think so don't end up feeling that someone else's ideological position is being pushed at them? Palmiro | Talk 23:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that your self-serving distortions are equivalent to a white South Afrikaaner apartheidist complaining about the "terrorist" ANC and accusing Nelson Mandela of being a racist, you are factually wrong. Hamas does not demand that Palestine be free of Jews. Hamas demands that Palestine be an Islamic state where Jews live under Islamic law. I know that sounds horrible to a Zionist but look at it this way - it's exactly the same thing that Zionists demand - that Muslims live in Israel under a Jewish state with Israeli laws. If Hamas is anti-Semitic, then Israel also should be tagged with a category of anti-Arab anti-Semitism. --68.214.58.46 23:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that since most Muslim Arabs are semitic by definition, I think it would be best if wikipedia led the way to revise this language to read what it means "Anti-Jewish." Semites are not going to be anti-themselves. This language should be revised and all references to anti-semitism should be converted to the true meaning. But, since there's little chance this would happen, I think that this article would be served better as an anti-Israel or anti-Israeli classification, since its highly specific and the entity does not concern itself with non-Zionist Jewish afairs outside the Israel/Palestine area. Zionism is a movement inside Judaism, but is not all Judaism. Also, Hamas and most "radical" "extremist" Islamic groups in the Middle East are not against Israel solely based on one religion or one "race", but rather on the basis that it is a Western, non-Islamic installation, and that it sees the West (particularly the United States, since our greatest foreign aid contribution goes to Israel), as imposing its values on the Muslim world. This would be true if Israel was a Christian state. Hamas is not anti-semitic, it is anti-Israel. Colby Peterson 03:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I reject your inflammatory speech and misconstrued comparisons. One doesn't need to target all the Jews or exclude Druze to be qualified as an antisemite. Please read the definition of anti-Semitism. The Jews accepted the partition, the Arabs rejected it wanting to take over the whole region. How is rejecting self-determination and sovereignty for Jews is not anti-Jewish? See Religion in Israel: Israel doesn't require Muslims or Chrisitans to live under the Jewish law. Hamas requires Jews to live under Islamic law at best or calls for their genocide at worst. Yeop, exemplary humanitarians. ←Humus sapiens 00:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Ironically, these concepts of "an people," "a homeland for a people" and the nation-state as being the modern realization of said eternal people's primeval desire for political union were all utilized by the NSDAP(as well as a lot of other fascists.) These are all "myths of the master race." As it stands, Israel gets the best of both worlds. When scrutinized from the outside it claims to be a modern, secular democracy ready to sit down at the table of nations as an equal. When the chips are down, though, Israel is the fulfilling of a milleniums old prophesy that this land was given to this people by God blah blah blah...oh, but it's not a theocracy. Hamas SHOULD be labeled as anti-semitic because the web of reifed concepts which the jews created is so full of inconsistencies and self-service that it's impossible to be a sane person without being antisemitic. So you say you don't think divine right is an acceptable justification for land ownership? ANTISEMITIC! They certainly aren't very fond of the jews so it's not far from the truth. Maybe if they are labeled antisemitic then the hamas haters will allow some more interesting content to be added. Lampajoo 16:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Lampajoo, it's antisemitic not because of the web of blah-blah-blah, but because they object to the Jewish state. If they were objecting to the German state they would be anti-German, if they were objectinng to the French state they would be anti-French, but since they object to the only Jewish state, they are anti-SemiticJeffsnill 22:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see that logic because Hamas is objectifying to any state that annexes Palestine. Anti-semitism, a misnomer to begin with, is "against Jews." Hamas is not necessarily against Jews, but against the state of Israel. Anti-Israel does not equal anti-semitism. Colby Peterson 21:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Colby Peterson, and Palestine just happens to include the entire present day Israel. It's actually quite simple, if they were objecting to any state that annexes present day Germany, they would be anti-German, if they were objecting to any state annexes present day France, they would be anti-French, but they just happend to object to any state that annexes the present day Israel, that makes them anti-Semitic. Also, please accept my apologies for the difficulties that you experience with the term “anti-Semite”. In modern English it means anti-Jewish. If you disagree, you should probably file a complaint with U.N. General Secretary Kofi Annan. Jeffsnill 01:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Jeffsnill, you should read the articles on Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism very carefully. What do you think of Jews opposed to Israel? Do you think they also are anti-Semitic? --68.219.203.209 02:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

68.219.203.209, I'm well aware of the issues, and don't see any inconsistency. In US there are many people who hate their own country. And they can be called just that anti-american americans. Likewise, you can find a lot of Jew-hating Jews, like Vladimir Zhirinovsky in Russia, or Noam Chomsky in the United States. A number of Nazi collaborators during WWII were Jewish, so yes, it is possible to be a Jewish anti-semite Jeffsnill 05:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure, it is possible to be a Jewish anti-semite but I asked you if you thought that every single person, including Jewish people, who oppose Israel are anti-semitic? You seem to think that it is impossible to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic. Most people recognize that there is legitimate criticism and those who try to label all critics as anti-semites are just using the accusation of anti-semitism as a tool to muzzle legitimate criticism.--68.219.203.209 13:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Criticizing Israel, or any other country, especially when done in a positive manner is a good thing for the country. Obviously nobody can be labeled anti-nation for criticizing the nation. If, on the other hand you are trying to dismiss the right to exist of the entire nation, then it can be said that you are the opponent of that nation. In case of Israel, if you are trying to dismiss the right to exist of the whole nation, it is proper to say that you are an anti-Semite. It’s like, if I were to criticize Joe for his shortcomings, and thus encourage him to become a better person, that would certainly be something friendly to him. If on the other hand I were to said that Joe has no right to exist, than I would be an anti-Joe. Jeffsnill 15:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Right., you'd be anti-Joe, not anti-Joe's religion or ethicity. Colby Peterson 15:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Whether someone is an anti-Semite for religious, ethnic or any other reason is of little consequence. They are still antiSemites. Jeffsnill 17:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

• Off course it not antisemitism to critisize Israel. I am a critisizing Israel's action many times and I am not antisemite. In fact I am oppose to many of israeli goverment actions (such as routing of the wall and continuing the occupation).

• So what is antisemitism in Hamas or others ?

• Antisemitism is to be against the jewish people (not the religion)

• Today antisemitism is to be against the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland like any other national group

• The syrian have Syria, the French have Farnce but just the Jewish people should somehow live ina state controlled by Hamas ? or by a palestinian majority that would(already did) vote Hmasa and Saria law to power ?

• The jeiwsh people have a right to a national home and being against that right is antisemitism

Here is an example of antisemitism pretending to describe "most of the world" as "political critisim of Israel":

 ::"It must be acknowledged that Hamas does not agree with the Jewish State in the Middle East". Opposition to Israel is not anti-semitism. Israel is a political entity. Most of the world is opposed to the existence of Israel and they are not anti-semitic. --68.211.68.122 13:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Zeq 19:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Their very charter cites the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" -- the most notoriously anti-Semitic tract in history -- as a guiding light. That suffices. --User:josephgrossberg 03:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The Earth is Flat and Hamas should not be indexed in the Antisemitism Category

Just how fully integrated anti-Jewishness and anti-Judaism are in the Islamist struggle against Israel can be best learned from the ideology of the Islamic Resistance Movement -- the HAMAS. By its own definition, the HAMAS is a Palestinian Islamist movement fighting for the liberation of the entire Palestine, the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic State in its stead. However, starting with its most basic ideological literature, most notably the HAMAS' Covenant of August 1988, the organization stresses that its actual struggle is global and as much against the Jews as against Israel or its Zionist inhabitants.

THE HAMAS IDEOLOGY

In November 1988, Hamas published a covenant which was an attempt to systematically present the movement's ideology, in contrast to the PLO covenant. It presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as the epitome of an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam. It is not a national or territorial conflict but a historical, religious, cultural and existential conflict between "truth and falsehood," the believers and the infidels, in which one side will eventually be the victor. The only way to confront this struggle is through Islam and by means of jihad (holy war), until victory or martyrdom. "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews ; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!? This ideology is represented in the movement's emblem, which shows the Qur'an and a sword. Reflecting this point of view, the Hamas leaflets were the most vociferous of all leaflets distributed by the Palestinian organizations during the Intifada and contained the most extreme anti-Semitic statements against Jews, Israelis and Zionists.

The terminology used against the Jews in the leaflets is a mixture of Western anti-Semitic and Islamic rhetoric. Some of the anti-Semitic expressions appearing repeatedly in the leaflets are:

"The brothers of the apes, the killers of the Prophets, blood suckers, warmongers," "barbaric," "cowards," "cancer expanding in the land of Isra' threatening the entire Islamic world," "a conceited and arrogant people," "the enemy of God and mankind," "the descendants of treachery and deceit,", Nazis," "spreading corruption in the land of Islam," "the Zionist culprits who poisoned the water in the past, killed infants, women and elders," "thieves, monopolists, usurers."

Verses from the Qur'an and the hadith (the traditions associated with Muhammad passed down by his companions) were used often to reinforce the negative image of the Jews, and terminology with Islamic connotations was dominant. The leaflets usually began with the religious invocation: "In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compa.ssionate." Almost every leaflet contained a Qur'anic verse either as a heading or as a conclusion, emphasizing a certain feature inherent to the Jews, is instigating war. For example: "Oh believers! take not the Jews or the Christians as friends." "So make war on them: By your hand will God chastise them, and will put them to shame, and will give you victory over them, and will heal the bosoms of a people who believe."

source: ]

Hamas Movement Spreads Anti-Semitism via the Internet ]

“In Hamas' literature, anti-Semitism became almost dominant. Earlier anti-Semitic motifs are developed time and again in their magazine Falastin al-Muslama. Almost every issue contains anti-Jewish articles using elements from the Islamic tradition. Judaism is presented as a religion based on lies, which from its origin called for aggression against others and their exploitation.”

Its founding charter contains strong anti-Semitic motifs including a quotation from the Koran as well as extreme derogatory remarks taken literally from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The charter of Hamas says this is an authentic document reflecting the danger of the Jewish people.

source: ]

Hamas Terror and Anti-Semitism Harsh Anti-Semitic Expressions by Abd Al-Aziz Al-Rantisi, A Senior Hamas Leader in the Gaza Strip - Rantisi’s incitement usually includes anti-Semitic attacks against the Jewish people. The themes he uses are well known and drawn from both classic European anti-Semitism and Islamic anti-Semitic interpretations. Source:]

or just google it yourself ] -Regards,Doright 22:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

You have provided good evidence that some Israeli organizations consider Hamas to be anti-Semitic. That doesn't make it a fact. The accusations of anti-Semitism should be included in the article with attribution to the source. The category is not appropriate because it implies that the accusation is a fact. --68.219.203.209 22:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

You see, 68.219.203.209, Hamas blows up Jews indiscriminately. This would probably constitute a sufficient evidence of Hamas’ hatred of Jews, ergo anti-Semitism. Unless, of course, you consider this sort of behavior to be an expression of passionate love towards Jewish people. Jeffsnill 22:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Etymology of Hamas

"This word is from the same root as a common Biblical Hebrew word for "violence, injustice, harsh wrong" (Oxford University Press Hebrew-English Dictionary), used for example in Gen. 6:11."

Interesting observation, but its inclusion may violate NPOV. Root derivation is not an index of identification: saying that "hamas" derives from a common root with a Biblical Hebrew word for "violence, injustice, harsh wrong" can be like saying that "nonviolence" derives from a common root with an English word that means "to inflict physical harm" - specifically, the English words "violence" and "nonviolence" share the common Latin root ";vehemens"! Common derivation is only significant if the commonality is significant; in this case, "hamas"'s common root with "violence, injustice, harsh wrong" is only significant if we decide that the name Hamas is synonymous with "violence, injustice, harsh wrong." If the common root from which both are derived also means "violence, injustice, harsh wrong" then the observation is appropriate - could anyone identify the common root? I'll leave the quote in for now, but someone ought to address my concern.

Good point: Hebrew roots can be terribly ambiguous. Additionally, a reference to a Biblical Hebrew root is not necessarily significant when working with modern Hebrew. I'll remove it for now (per WP:BOLD). Justin Eiler 15:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that even if we can all agree what the Hebrew means, it shouldn't be included in this article unless there is some evidence that it means something to Hamas or that its meaning influenced their choice of acronym. Otherwise, it's a mere coincidence which is not really worth mentioning in an encyclopedia.Palmiro | Talk 16:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. ←Humus sapiens 22:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I'm the one who put in that sentence about the meaning in Hebrew, as well as the quote from the Arabic dictionary on the Arabic word. I agree that there is doubt about whether the founders of Hamas thought about the meaning in Hebrew. I suspect that they did have in mind the meaning in Arabic, even though it's only an acronym. But I don't think there are enough Hebrew scholars among them to know its meaning in Hebrew.

As for whether the Hebrew meaning is significant, I think it is. First of all, even though the word is not used in everyday Hebrew (they use alimut for violence and i-tsedek for injustice), its meaning is nevertheless well known, especially to anyone who reads the Hebrew Bible. The original meaning in Hebrew is clear from the many verses in the Bible that use it. As for the original meaning in Proto-Semitic, one has to guess. A Hebrew dictionary I have says that hamas is related to the Arabic hamisa meaning "to be strong". That is a rather too abbreviated definition of the Arabic meaning, but I think that is probably more or less the meaning in the common Proto-Semitic--something like "to be strong, vehement, aggressive".

I suggest rewriting my sentence something like: "Although the founders of the organization most likely were unaware of the fact, the related word "chamas" in Hebrew has very bad connotations to Jews and Israelis, as it is an old word for "violence, injustice, harsh wrong" (Oxford University Press Hebrew-English dictionary). The word is quite common in the Hebrew Bible, such as in Gen. 6:11."

EricK 07:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

If you think it is useful and really is significant, I suppose it could go in, though the first part of the proposed sentence is a bit speculative. Certainly the Muslim Brothers had the meaning of the Arabic acronym in mind, just as those of Fata7 (conquest). Palmiro | Talk 12:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

However, it certainly doesn't belong in the first line giving the meaning of the Arabic word. Palmiro | Talk 18:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The reference to the Hebrew word Hamas keeps getting put back in. Can we come to a final consensus? I think that if the information about the Hebrew word "Hamas" is to be included in the article, it must be made clear that the Arabic Hamas is an acronym and only coincidentally and phonetically similar to the Hebrew word. Otherwise it appears to be a POV editorial that Hamas deliberately invoked the word and its meaning in Hebrew, for which we have no confirmation source or even a reputable speculation source. --AladdinSE 01:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I think this is significant. Not because the Hamas had it in mine when picking a name, but because it is relevant to the Israeli views(or more accuratly, feelings) towards the Hamas. If Hamas meant in Hebrew "Peace, Love, and Blooming Flowers" I'd be in favor of adding that too. Most Israelis don't know that Hamas stands for The Islamic Resistance Movement, but they as hell know that Hamas means "something very bad"(as it had been noted above, Hebrew roots are complicated, and most Israelis don't know the exact meaning of Biblical words). It even gave birth to the slang word "Hamasnik"("-of the Hamas" or "Hamas activist" etc.), which is used towards any oponent, foe, or just a disliked person, when the obvious conotation is to the Hebrew meaning of Hamas, and no to the Islamic Resistance Movement, although the term comes from it. Point is - it is relevant for Israeli views affected by the Hamas(and it's name). conio.h • talk 03:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Relevant to Israel, not to Hamas, in my opinion. HamAss has a strange connotation in English but it's not relevant to the organization either. --Krukowski 03:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Hamas operates (only) in Israel(and the Gaza Strip, and the occupied Judea and Samaria). If Al-Qaeda meant something in Hebrew, I wouldn't have want it added to the article. Besides, I'm talking about the effect the Hamas has on Israel. It belongs here as much is at belongs to Effects of Palestinian Terrorist Organizations on Israel, Israeli Culture and Israeli Views. conio.h • talk 03:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that without speculation about the Hebrew word "hamas" from an outside source, the relevancy is tenuous at best, if not downright original research. If it is put in, all I am saying is that there must be the "coincidental phonetic" caveat inserted. --AladdinSE 07:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Zeq

Hamas is well funded and known to make generous payments to the families of suicide bombers. According to The Guardian the group is "paying a spin doctor $180,000 (£100,000) to persuade Europeans and Americans that it is not a group of religious fanatics who relish suicide bombings and hate Jews."

On December 12, 2005 Hamas sent a video greeting to the "Arabs of 1948" (i.e Israeli Arabs) on their help to Hamas "To destroy Israel from within" . , and not to suffer from the perceived corruption of the Fatah party .

These are the two paragraphs I removed from the intro. Zeq, there are some real problems with them.

1. "Hamas is well funded and known to make generous payments to the families of suicide bombers." -- Needs a citation, and needs to be in a later section, not the introsuction for POV reasons.

Also needs to point out that they make payments to the families after their children have committed the suicide bombing because the Israeli government imposes severe financial penalties on the same families. I.e. far from funding terrorism this is a case of trying to help the poor that are robbed by the Israeli government for the crimes of people that are not them. I.e. a case of ensuring that although the Israeli government punish people for the crimes of others, in contradiction to the universal declaration of human rights, Hamas wish to ensure that people's rights under that same declaration, those rights the declaration says they have simply by virtue of existing, are upheld.

1. "According to The Guardian the group is "paying a spin doctor $180,000 (£100,000) to persuade Europeans and Americans that it is not a group of religious fanatics who relish suicide bombings and hate Jews." -- I've covered this in an NPOV manner in a later paragraph.

In much the same way as Creationist groups pay for TV adverts to say that it isn't a bunch of evil terrorist nutcases. There isn't anything significant about this, other than people who clearly have a bad press in some regions of the world, many of which are heavily biased against them, trying to clear their own name.

1. On December 12, 2005 Hamas sent a video greeting to the "Arabs of 1948" (i.e Israeli Arabs) on their help to Hamas "To destroy Israel from within" . -- This not only needs a citation (from a neutral source), this needs to be in History, not in the intro.

That would be 100% of the membership of Hamas that sent the video? or an individual, or group, within it. I.e. is it like the entire state of Israel bombing civilian targets, or just the nutcases that constitute KACH?

1. and not to suffer from the perceived corruption of the Fatah party. -- Straight POV.

Zeq, I support Israel and I'm not at all fond of Hamas. But if we live in a world where we deal with people like them, we must know ALL the truth--not just the truth that agrees with our preferences. Justin Eiler 16:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"Opinion" is not "Citation"

Zeq, your last edit to this page cited an editorial/opinion piece. Opinions and editorials are not "facts"--they are opinions, and cannot be cited as facts. Justin Eiler 17:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I confused two edits. sorry. It is fixed now. Zeq 19:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Accusations of POV and the "totallydispute" tag

If you wish to dispute the claims of the article and add a tag such as {{totallydispute}}, please thereafter come to the talk page and explain why you dispute the article. We cannot improve the article without some concrete, specific idea of what the problem is. Justin Eiler 19:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Your categorization of hamas as anti-semitic has been disputed, remember?--68.214.58.46 22:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Your disputes have been responded to, remember? Justin Eiler 23:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

No, you summarily concluded that you were correct but the dispute continues. Hence the need for the disputed tag, which you removed. --68.214.58.46 23:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, friend: what I did was respond to your objections, explaining why they were inaccurate. You have yet to explain why my conclusions are incorrect, or why my response does not satisfy the facts. I'm not worried about satisfying you or myself: my interest is solely and simply in the truth--and if that means that Hamas is truthfully not anti-semitic, then I will endeavor to assis you in removing those sections. But whether or not they are antisemitic should be conclusively established before we start changing the page again.

Please understand: it's not that this is an argument that I'm trying to win. What's going on here is that I want this to be an accurate and truthful article. That means I'm not nearly as interested in being "right" now as I am in gaining more knowledge, or correcting ignorance or misinformation that I may have. Justin Eiler 23:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on those who want to categorize Hamas as anti-Semitic. You returned that category to the article and you removed the disputed tag. When you asked that any disputes be brought to the Talk page, I reminded you that one of the disputes is over the tag you insist on including in the article. You claimed that you had responded to the dispute as if that settled it. The dispute continues, the tag belongs and the category does not. Your arguments are specious and disingenuous. --68.214.58.46 23:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I take it that you do not feel my arguments are in good faith? Justin Eiler 23:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I suppose somebody could type up a sub-section about "Hamas and antisemitism" - it shouldn't be that hard. TheronJ 22:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Archived Discussions

I archived the first twenty subtopics of the talk page to Talk:Hamas/Archive_1 and Talk:Hamas/Archive_2. Justin Eiler 23:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hamas Charter, again

Would anyone like to offer a reason why I should not take out all the quotes from the Hamas Charter, which is readily available in full from the external links, instead giving a succinct description of relevant provisions thereof in appropriate parts of the article? Palmiro | Talk 16:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Because poeople rearly click on external links and it is better to give them a glance of important quotes. Maybe look at the reason whu you filled the "nakba" articles in zionist quotes although those quotes (and links to them) belong in articles such as "transfer". The quotes stay, they belong in this article. Zeq 16:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you post the whole charter so that readers can know the essence of the movement and make their own judgement as to whether the article accurately portrays the movement's ideology. (70.29.200.204)

This is exactly what I think is looking increasingly like the only alternative, and indeed a result we are now poised to incrementally achieve, but it uses a disproportionate amount of space, duplicates Wikisource, and is contrary to policy. Palmiro | Talk 16:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Too long. It is enough to give the important quotes (as done now) and provide a link to the whole charter. Zeq 17:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence so far that the "important quotes" are being chosen on any basis except that people think they can use them to prove one point or another in pursuit of their ideological ends. This means other people put other bits in. And eventually we will have the whole thing here. Not good. Palmiro | Talk 17:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Luckly, so far, this did not occur and we have a reasnable number of quotes that take up 3-4% of this article. If someone will start adding many more quotes to cloud the issue this would be against WP:Point so I am not worried - we will be able to deal with it. If there is a quote you think is important - feel free to add it but make sure you don't violate WP:point just to show your point that what you think might occur is indeed occuring (so far it did not. Zeq 17:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

To POV editors

see this: Talk:Hamas#Israel_conscription_rates before adding this BS nonsense again. Zeq 16:53, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you think or what the true conscription rate among Israeli Jews is. What matters in this article is Hamas' perception, reasoning and justification. --68.219.203.209 16:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

You have violated Misplaced Pages policy by changing my comment. If you want to provide sources for what your beliefs are do it but don't violate Misplaced Pages policy again otherwise I will complain and you might get block. Please learn wikipdia rulls before continuing to place propeganda on this article. Zeq 17:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Both of you have violated Misplaced Pages custom, Zeq, but your personal attack is the only actual policy that was broken. Your comment was not changed--only the heading.

To both of you: if you do not cease the endless POV edit-warring (and yes, BOTH of you are guilty), I will ask for administrator intervention. Justin Eiler 17:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Look again I never violated the policy (although I had the intention of violating it by telling a person that justified murder what i think of him) but at the end I decided that violating it by writing a perosonal attack against someone who justify murder would be a waste of time, so I ended up not violating the policy - such blatenet bias against jews is not even worth violating policy over it. Zeq 17:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you--and thank you for editing your statement so that it was clearly not a PA.

However, the point does remain: both of you (and several other contributors) are engaging in some very POV edits. Would it not be better to step back and let others, who are not so emotionally attached to this particular subject, try to write a more objective article? Justin Eiler 17:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Why are you complaining about personal attacks yet you find it perfectly acceptable to continually refer to people as "Jewish Zionists" in a derogatory nature. Orbframe 17:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't complain.--68.219.203.209 18:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

But you did edited other people words and he was not refering to you in the above comment anyhow. Zeq 18:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

What other people's words did I edit Zeq? Your attempted personal attack section heading "To the anonymous editor and hamas supporter from Atalnta"? --68.219.203.209 18:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

This is not a personal attack, if you think it is an atack on you I appologize. Zeq 18:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. Let's try to leave our personal opinions out of this and edit an encyclopedic article, not a polemic for or against Hamas. In fact, I will no longer edit this article because it is not possible to remove all the POV being inserted by partisans.--68.219.203.209 18:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. We will leave personal attacks aside. Zeq 19:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

PS. Just one question: Are you visting in Atlanta (From Canberra by any chance?)

Gone. No one heard from 68.219.203.209 ever since I asked if he is visiting From Canberra mmm...... makes you wonder. Zeq 19:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

HAMAS RUN SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS!! WHY NO OF MENTION THAT???????

stop being biased and mention that! source from BBC News

Hamas runs social programmes like building schools, hospitals and religious institutions http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1654510.stm

This is true and I actually added that, not sure why it was deleted. Zeq 20:47, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is the section title CAPITALIZED? And so many question marks... Really, one is enough. El_C 00:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Nazis made trains come on schedule, didn't make them any less homisidal Jeffsnill 22:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

That we will ensure the trains run on time is attributed to the Italian Fascists (Mussolini), actually. El_C 00:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

A NPOV article should include all information. This is an encyplodedia article, not an article to convince people that hamas is bad. The information should be included. --MateoP 13:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Legal Action Against Hamas?

What is the point of this section? Why should it not be deleted?

The first paragraph refers to a civil action in the USA against an event taking place in Israel. Legal actions against events outside a court's jurisdiction have no relevance.

The second paragraph refers to an indictment which, by definition, is POV.

--die Baumfabrik 05:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Flurry of enthusiasm here

Yesterday I have fixed the spelling of Alistair Cooke's name (was misspelled as Crooke). His opinion does not correspond to mine, but that's another story. Today, his name is misspelled again, and some relevant links (such as ADL) were gone. The removal of a linked, sourced, relevant material is not a way to collaborate. ←Humus sapiens 11:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's Alistair Crooke.

There is an Alistair Cooke (probably rather better known, in England anyway) but it's not the same person at all. Probably worth citing a source in the article just so that the confusion doesn't recur. Palmiro | Talk 12:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I changed it because his name is "crooke" Zeq 14:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, good to know. I stand corrected. ←Humus sapiens 03:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Current Event. Why?

I suggest that any new news be moved to a topc named "Hamas Palistinian Election of 2006" and information should be moved from that to the main Hamas article as appropiate.

As a note of consistancy the Republican_Party_(United_States) article can change rapidly, just as the George W Bush. But they currently don't have that block inserted becuase there are articles such as U.S._presidential_election,_2004 to do this. Article does but they are not listed as current events because they both aren't events, they are entities. What are peoples' opinions on this? --..micky 09:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Anti israel or Antisemite  ?

Being anti-Semite means being against the jews. (although other national origin, especially the arabs, are also semites) Still, antisemitism is widely used to describe hate against jews.

Being "for the destruction of Israel" or Being "pro-peace" may not seem antisemitic - right ?

so let's examine:

• Being for peace is nice, but if this peace means that it is achived by removing all the jews from israel - this does look so noable any more - right  ?

Being "anti_Israel" sound as being "anti-American" or "Anti-French" but let's examine closly:

• "Anti-Israel" is against the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland. After all israel is the only homelnd the Jewish people have.

So do not let retoric confuse you. But in case it does read article 6 in the Hamas covenenet: Their hatred toward the jews is spelled out clearly in article6.

Zeq 15:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed questionable passage

I rm this:

"According to the semi-official Hamas biography "Truth and existence," Hamas evolved through four main stages:

1. 1967-1976: Construction of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza Strip in the face of "oppressive Israeli rule";
2. 1976-1981: Geographical expansion through participation in professional associations in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and institution building, notably al-Mujamma` al-islami, al-Jam`iyya al-islamiyya, and the Islamic University in Gaza;
3. 1981-1987: Political influence through establishment of the mechanisms of action and preparation for armed struggle;
4. 1987: Founding of Hamas as the combatant arm of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and the launching of a continuing Jihad."

This last sentence in particular "Founding of Hamas as the combatant arm of the Muslim Brotherhood" is incorrect. How can you claim Hamas is the "combatant arm of the Muslim Brotherhood"? It is inspired by it, that's not the same at all. Tazmaniacs

Actually, the wikisource translation of the Covenant says "The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine". I think that material should go back in; it seems to correspond surprisingly closely to fact. Palmiro | Talk 16:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Rear moment in wiki history: I agree with Palmiro. back in it should go. Zeq 17:49, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the intro to state this rather significant information about the organisation. Palmiro | Talk 18:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources: how about endnotes?

Due to the controversial nature of the topic, shouldn't we use only endnotes as in other similar articles, with Citenews templates? It's longer, but at least we immediately know which source comes the info from. Tazmaniacs 16:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Steps by steps, paragraphs by paragraphs, intro, sections, conclusion...

Can we agree on this as beginning of the article:

"Hamas (حماس), acronym of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal'), is the largest Palestinian Islamist movement. As a radical political group involved in military activities, it is classed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel. However, it also carries out social service and community building, which is an important factor of its recent victory during the January 2006 legislative election."

It says the most important (Islamic, terrorist, social activities & recent election). We don't need any pathos here, and any supporter of peace-salam-shalom will agree that pathos will not solve anything. If you want to talk about cutting babies in two and other such things, can you at least do it two paragraphs down? Everybody knows Hamas is an islamic terrorist group, that's why we write it in the first paragraph, no need to add pathos (why not a webcam about some guy blowing himself up?). Tazmaniacs

Good idea if we could agree on the introduction. Agree on the four most important points. However, I suggest this one:

Hamas (حماس), acronym of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal'), is the largest Palestinian Islamist movement. The group carries out extensive social service and community building. However, as a radical political group involved in military activities, it is classed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel.

We could add that it won the 2006 elections, but I dont think we should try to analyze the reasons for winning in the introduction. As social service is a main activity, that Hamas uses much more ressources on than terrorist activities, I believe the two things should be mentioned in that order. Bertilvidet 18:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The current version is:

"Hamas (حماس), acronym of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal'), is the largest Palestinian Islamist terrorist movement. It carries out attacks on Israeli civilians, including suicide attacks in Israel as well as attacks on Israeli forces in the the occupied territories. Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and [[Israel. The group grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood and follow the Muslim Brotherhood tradition of providing extensive social service."

I'm sure we can list social & terrorist activities together. However, writing that the group "follow the Muslim Brotherhood tradition of providing extensive social service" is ignoring the specificity of Hamas, which may have carried on this tradition (which is normal, for a religious movement), but massified it so much. What about:

"Hamas (حماس), acronym of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal'), is the largest Palestinian Islamist movement. A social, political and military group, Hamas both engages in welfare activities and in terrorist actions. It is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel."? Tazmaniacs

How about:

"Hamas (حماس), acronym of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal'), is the largest Palestinian Islamist terrorist movement. It carries out attacks on Israeli civilians, including suicide attacks in Israel as well as attacks on Israeli forces in the the occupied territories. Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel. The group grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, follow and extended their tradition of providing extensive social service."

Zeq 19:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Zeq, do I need to say more than NPOV ? Yes, Hamas commit attacks that I would agree to labe terrorists. But their main focus is not on terrorism, but rather on social services. Both should be mentionned in the introduction. We can refer to the states that label Hamas as a terrorist organization but being NPOV we cannot make that judgement. Bertilvidet 19:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd vote for Tazmaniac's last version. "Welfare activities and terrorist actions" is simple and to the point, which is good for the intro. The stuff about what kind of welfare activities and terrorist actions can all go below the TOC. (Taz's version is also a lot better than "military activities," which obscures more than it states). TheronJ 19:41, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

How about:

"Hamas (حماس), acronym of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal'), is the largest Palestinian Islamist movement. Hamas is engaged in welfare activities as well as in terrorist activities to achive it's political goals. It is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel."?

Zeq, could you please stop adding your own unbalanced introduction. I dont like Hamas neither, but the point of this site is give balanced factual information. And it is a fact that Hamas' main activity not is terrorism, even though they are mostly known for their horrible attacks. (by Bertilvidet, forgot to sign, sorry)

Could You stop interducing your POV about Hamas "main activity" in the intro of this article. The entry was more or less NPOV before you started a revert war. Zeq 20:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's use Tazmaniacs suggested compromise for the introduction until we reach a better agreement. It serves no purpose deleting their social activities - if the aim is to draw a negative image of the organisation this is not the right site. Obviously, attacks against civilians, which is terrorism, is a part of their strategy. Both facts should be mentioned. Let's work together for approaching the truth, despite disagreements. Bertilvidet 20:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

No one has deleted "their social activity" it is there. Now don't start to argue that anyone here justwant to create "a negative image for Hmas" because this is not true. If anyone want to know my opinion about Hamas (which is not in the article) send me an e-mail but in the article we keep info whcih most people would look for in an encyclopedia. Zeq 20:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Introduction that we all agree upon?

It seems to be a hard work to keep this article - about a sensitive issue - sufficiently NPOV. I have however the impression that all of us participating in the discussion have reached an agreement / compromise about the points to be in the introduction:

1. The largest Palestian Islamist movement
2. Provides extensive social services
3. Has carried out attacks on Israelis (including civilians) why it designated as a terrorist organization by several states.

And then, obviously, we should not have too many details in these first lines, which must sum up the main aspects of the group.

Until we reach another agreement I strongly urge everyone to keep an eye on these first lines and do an effort to keep it NPOV in line with the above mentioned points. Bertilvidet 07:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Not Really

I think we're going about this the wrong way. What we're here to achieve is a concise, factual definition. If we all sit about here trying to find compromise wording, all we'll end up doing is compromising the facts -- the very thing we don't want. So why don't we lay out the facts first (in point form) and do the wordsmithing afterwards. Softwalker 22:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe there are many facts about any entry. And the article is filled with facts, if there is anythning factually wrong it will be contested immediately. My point is that we whould find a compromise, which I believe we have, about which facts are the most significant and best describing the group and thus tobe mentioned in the introduction. I believe an introdcution will be clearly biased if any of my three poınts are left out! Bertilvidet 14:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Please particapte here...It really serves nothing just reverting the introduction to whatever you find the most relevant...I believe we can reach a consensus, and I think the three above mentioned points is a good point of start.Bertilvidet 10:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Targeting civilians is not "military activity"

Targeting civilians, the way Hamas has been doing since 1990 (and especially in 1994-1996 and 2001-2004) is not a "militray activity" - it is a war crime (also known as terrorism).

To claim that the world clasify Hamas as terrorist because it is political extrem and engane in militray activity is not a euphamism it is a lie. No place for such lies on Misplaced Pages.

Zeq 19:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

How many Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli "military" attacks in the past 5 years? About 4000? Roughly 5 times as many Palestinians as Israeli civilians killed by such attacks, I believe. Sure, the Israelis aren't targeting the Palestinian civilians. They just have very bad aim, it seems. Unless you are willing to label the Israeli military as a terrorist organization, I think you should rein in your righteous indignation. It's like the teapot calling the kettle black. --68.219.203.209 22:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

BS. BS. BS. Your numbers are wrong and the issue is what does each side TARGETS. Zeq 05:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The 4000 Palestenians are victims of Hamas, because they are using them as human shields, and not of Israel. Jeffsnill 01:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The "human shields" argument does not justify the actions of the IDF. According to the Geneva Convention it is a war crime for an occupying power to kill civilians under its jurisdiction. Intent is irrelevant. Whether or not the IDF deliberately targets civilians is beside the point. It undertakes military operations knowing that there will necessarily be "collateral damage." It is therefore responsible for its actions. Hamas is, of course, responsible for war crimes, but the actions of Hamas do not give the IDF sanction to kill innocent Palestinians. This logic is extremely dangerous. Gregor Samsa 08:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Human shields argument actually justifies actions of IDF. Otherwise you would be writing a cart blanche to any criminal with a single hostage. Geneva convention doesn’t define a war crime for an occupying power to kill civilians under its jurisdiction, because such definition would allow a civilian to engage in any illegal activity, including murder of fellow civilians without fear of being punished. Therefore intent of IDF is right on the point. Possibility of the collateral damage does not prohibit the military operation, especially done for the purpose of self-defense. IDF doesn’t kill innocent Palestenians, Hamas does, by putting them in a line of fire. If Hamas uses live people to stop bullets coming from IDF at Hamas, then Hamas is the murderer. Greg, it’s not that my logic is dangerous, it’s just that you are lacking one. Jeffsnill 12:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The basis for my argument is very simple: an individual or state is responsible for the predictable consequences of their actions. This proposition is, in fact, the basis for all criminal law. If the IDF kills innocent civilians while engaging in military actions it is responsible for those deaths. It can't blame them on the paramilitaries/terrorists, or what have you, that it is fighting. As the occupying power it is responsible for the safety of the civilians under its control, and if it deliberately puts them in danger, that's a war crime. The Geneva Convention is quite explicit about this. If we follow your logic to its conclusion we end up justifying, not only the war crimes of the IDF, but also those of Hamas, for once you start rationalizing the killing of civilians you give your enemies the moral ground to do the same. That's why your logic is so dangerous. Gregor Samsa 17:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The Palestenians that you claim to be the IDF victims, are in fact the victims of Hamas, because Hamas is using them as human shields. It is true, that an individual or state are responsible for their actions. This is precisely why IDF, who’s primary responsibility is to protect Israeli citizens, is obligated under a Geneva convention to kill Hamas terrorists. In order to prevent them from murdering Israeli citizens. You are correct by noting that a crime is committed by putting civilians DELIBERATELY in danger. IDF would never put civilians in danger deliberately. Also there is no equivalence between IDF and Hamas, since IDF never used civilians as human shields. Jeffsnill 19:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

oh, that's why ;-) Arre 20:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm wrong on the last sentense, I admit that Jeffsnill 21:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Even more to the point: IDF has a responsibility to protect Palestinian citizens. Hamas terrorists are dangerous to Palestinian citizens because of how they operate and who they target. IDF is protecting Palestinians by killing those Hamas agents that engage in terror. The IDF works to minimize the collateral damage while Hamas chooses to maximize it. Tbeatty 20:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

And when the IDF kills Palestinian civilians that have nothing to do with Hamas? I find it sickening that there are so many people not just willing but determined to make excuses for the murder of innocent civilians. Palmiro | Talk 00:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

No one is making excuses for Israeli's killing civilians. Hamas terrorists have turned the Palestinian areas into war zones. Unfortunately, civilians are killed in war zones. Israel and most nations do their best to limit civilian casualties as much as possible but they are a fact of war. If Hamas wanted to eliminate civilian casualties in Palestinian areas, they would simply stop attacking Israel from Palestinian areas and stop making their terrorist weapons in Palestinian neighborhoods. Unlike Hamas, Israel does it's best to limit collateral damage including civilian casualties. Tbeatty 01:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The IDF regularly and deliberately puts civilians in danger. The vast majority of civilian deaths in this conflict are the result of IDF operations. However the IDF might rationalize these actions, it undertakes them knowing that civilian deaths will be the inevitable result. That means the IDF is responsible for those deaths--we are responsible for the predictable consequences of our actions, that's sort of an elementary moral principle. When you fire missiles at apartment buildings, or fire tank shells in densely-populated refugee camps you're going to kill civilians. That is a predictable outcome; you are responsible for the deaths that occur as a result. So you have to decide, is it worth it? Is it worth it to commit war crimes in order to maintain control of the region? Now, you may say yes, but in addition to losing all moral credibility, you'll have to find a justification for your war crimes that doesn't provide a justification for the war crimes of others. You might say, "this is the only way to fight terror, these people cannot govern themselves, you have to break a few eggs, its for their own good, we're protecting them by killing them," and so on, but these arguments cut both ways, and given that the majority of Palestinian civilian deaths, in fact, the majority of all civilian deaths in this conflict, are the result of IDF actions, it stands to reason that, for the IDF, the most simple and effective means to protect civilians would simply be to refrain from killing them. That would dramatically reduce the violence in the region. But of course, the IDF has no interest in protecting civilians, it is interested in maintaining control; that is its mandate, and so long as the occupation is the most effective means of control the IDF will continue to kill civilians in order to maintain it. Gregor Samsa 22:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Idiot. 71.224.92.104 10:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks. Gregor Samsa 07:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't a personal attack. It was an observation. By your "logic," every nation in the history of the world is terrorist and deserves to have its civilians ruthlessly slaughtered. Civilians die in war. It is unfortunate. If you want it to stop, I suggest you figure out how to end war. Otherwise, find a better way to justify the murder of Israeli innocents.71.224.92.104 10:03, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to justify the vicious atrocities of Hamas; I'm merely pointing out that the atrocities committed by Hamas do not give the IDF sanction to kill innocent Palestinians. This is sort of obvious, I know, but some people here seem to think that the IDF is not responsible for the civilians it has killed. My argument is very simple: you are responsible for the predictable consequences of your actions. That means if you undertake military operations knowing that they will result in civilian deaths--that is, if you fire missiles at crowded apartment blocks or fire tank shells in densely populated refugee camps--you are responsible for the deaths that occur as a result. When you dismiss these deaths by calling them an "unfortunate" side effect of war, you relieve the IDF of its responsibility to protect civilians and effectively end up sanctioning war crimes. Gregor Samsa 19:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

IDF is not putting civilians in danger. The primary reason they are firing at the terrorists among the Palestinians is to protect Israeli civilians. Inaction on part of IDF would be suicidal as it would allow Hamas terrorist to murder Israeli civilians without any restrain. If Palestinians want to violence to stop, they need to stop terrorizing Israelis, as the “Predictable outcome” of murdering Israeli civilians, is death of Palestinian civilians, which according to Greg’s logic makes Palestenian terrorists war criminals. If Israelis were to follow Gregor’s advice, the violence in the region would not reduce, but it would increase, because Hamas would see that there is nothing stopping them from murdering Israelis. IDF is not interested in control of anyone, it is only interested in protecting of Israeli civilians from being murdered by Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists. Self-defense is not a war crime, therefore IDF is not a war criminal. The fact that Palestinian casualties are predictable or not has no bearing on the issue, as IDF’s primary responsibility is to the Israeli citizens. The arguments don’t cut both ways because IDF doesn’t deliberately kill Palestinian civilians, unlike Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists. If IDF wanted to kill Palestinians that could do by hitting every population center, and killing either Palestinian or almost every Palestinian in a matter of days. Since they are not doing so, we can conclude that they don’t desire Palestinian civilian casualties. Jeffsnill 04:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Occupation is not self-defense; it is the opposite of self-defense. If the Israeli government were at all interested in the well being of their own people they would end the occupation. You can't occupy a nation and deprive a people of their basic human rights in self-defense. You can't destroy their economy, their social institutions, kill their civilians and subject their families to an endless series of humiliations and claim to be acting in self-defense. Nor can you stand with your boot on your neighbour's neck and expect to have peace. You want a peaceful resolution to the conflict? End the occupation. If you end the occupation, you undermine the popular support that allows paramilitaries to operate. You want an end to violence? Give people an alternative to violence; allow them self-determination, participation in government, economic opportunities, and they will abandon violence. But in order to do that you need to recognize some very elementary moral principles, like you are responsible for your actions, which means, you are responsible for the civilians you kill in military operations, you are responsible for the poverty and misery caused by your social and economic policies, etc. This recognition is the basic precondition for any resolution to the conflict. Gregor Samsa 06:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense, the occupation was done because Israelis were shot at. If you don't like being occupied don't terrorise your neighbours, and they won't Jeffsnill 17:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

You have confused the effect of the occupation with its cause. Gregor Samsa 19:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't. You did. Jeffsnill 21:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, this discussion seems to have veered astray. Getting back on topic, the deliberate targetting of civilians is not "military activity" according to any international bodies or codes. Jayjg 15:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. But one might also point out that "military activity" can also involve war crimes that are morally equivalent to terrorism. Gregor Samsa 16:47, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

its not a war crime to defend self Jeffsnill 17:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, occupation is not self-defense, and it is a war crime for an occupying power to engage in military activities that recklessly endanger the lives of civilians. Gregor Samsa 18:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Occupation can be done for the purpose of self-defense. Israel does not recklessly endangers lives of civilians. And endengering is nowere defined as a war crime. Jeffsnill 20:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Destruction versus Abolition

I propose that we reevaluate the use of the word "destruction" in reference to the stated Hamas charter aim regarding the State of Israel. My concern is that the unqualified use of the word Destruction in such a violent context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict invokes images of mass genocide and murder, as well as of physical demolition. We are all agreed, are we not, that Hamas actually wants to abolish the Jewish State and dismantle it's Jewish institutions and replace them with Islamic ones. No murder, or even deportation, is contemplated. Of course we must also make sure that it is understood that Hamas aims to achieve this by armed struggle, not a "constitutional process" which of course is unavailable. For example, in 1997, voters in the city of Miami, Florida considered a ballot measure to abolish the city and merge it with the county . Had it passed, the jurisdiction and legal entity of the city of Miami would have been technically destroyed, but the more appropriate word is abolished. What does everyone think? I think we should look into replacing references to "destruction of Israel" with "abolition", or at the very least, make clear what the concept of "destruction" vis a vie the Hamas charter actually entails. --AladdinSE 02:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's a political, philosophical or ideological abolition, not a physical destruction they're talking about. I think. --Krukowski 03:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Murder and Genocide if Israelis is not something that Hamas contemplates, it is something that they actually implement, and this is even before the state of Israel is destroyed. Their attacks on Jewish settlers indicate that there is no room for Jews in the Islamic theocratic nation that they envision. Destruction, therefore, is right on. Jeffsnill 04:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure. I don't have a problem with "abolition" vs. "destruction". Iwould like someone more scholarly in Arabic to ascertain what the charter is. But I do not agree that that Hamas believe there is a place in Palestine for any Jews. To use Saudia Arabia as an example, Jerusalem is a Holy City for Muslims and just as Jews are banned from Saudia Arabia, I think Hamas' goal is to remove all Jews from what they consider Palestinian lands. I don't think Hamas cares whether the jews are "abolished" as a state or "destroyed" as a state. It is clear, however, that violence is tool in their arsenal to bring about their desired end. Tbeatty 04:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a Euphamism we should be bold and call things as they are . Zeq 05:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Jeffsnill, that is an emotional perspective to take. I well understand that organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad etc, who have committed terrorist acts targeting civilians, are naturally hateful to a great many people, especially Israelis. But if we are to write an accurate and neutral encyclopedia article about them, we must accurately portray their charter and stated aims. I remember that in an article or Talk discussion somewhere, there was an explanation about Hamas's policy of an Islamic State where non-Muslims receive Dhimmi status under Islamic Law etc. I will ask SlimVirgin and Jayjg about it, as I recall they were participants in the discussion. The Jewish population will not be deported, much less exterminated, under a Hamas-envisioned system. And just because we substitute "abolition" in place of "destruction", in order to distinguish the aim of an end to legal jurisdiction as opposed to mass death and physical destruction, we are in no way obfuscating the violent acts committed by Hamas, which will still be discussed in the article. I am advocating no whitewash here. Tbeatty has a point about ascertaining in a clearer fashion what the charter actually states, but in the meantime it is not unreasonable to simply tell the truth, that Hamas' aim is to abolish the State of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority and replace it with an Islamic Republic. Jews and Christians have limited rights in such a State, and Hamas does not advocate murder or expulsion in the event they achieve their Republic. Tbeatty, if you think this is a lie or a ruse, I'm sure others do too, and we can include those postulations from various sources as well. What I advocate is that we accurately portray Hamas's avowed policy regarding Jews in an Islamic Republic of Palestine, and that an unqualified "destruction of the State of Israel" is not an accurate way of doing that. Also, please note that quotations from sources will of course NOT have words substituted. --AladdinSE 06:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I made one edit along these lines:

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and any secular Palestinian government, inasmuch as these geopolitical entities are abolished, and the absorption of the Jewish and Arab populations into an Islamic Republic of Palestine.

I invite others to tweak it and continue the discussion. It is not perfect yet, but is it not more accurate and neutral than simply saying "destruction of Israel"?--AladdinSE 07:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The Hamas charter also specifically describes the killing of Jews; it's rather hard to imagine any scenario at all under which the "destruction of the State of Israel" would not also involve the killing of tens or hundreds of thousands of Jews, and the expulsion or flight of millions more. Jayjg 15:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

AladdinSE, You are assuming that Hamas charter is a legal document that accurately portrays the nature of the organization, as well as its purpose. When, in fact, this is a worthless piece of paper, and their true nature is described by their acts of terror as well as the occasional anti-Semitic pronouncements by its various members. Jeffsnill 16:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Jeffsnill, again, you are tackling this matter in a very emotional manner. If we can just put on our strict Wiki-neutrality hats on fore a bit, we can perhaps see eye to eye on some points. I am no fan of Hamas, as far as I am concerned they abandoned the concept of legitimate resistance when they began blowing up kids at buss stops. Yes, they have a large and successful welfare network, but this is dwarfed by the fact that they are actively damaging, confounding and delaying the achievement of justice and equality for the Palestinians. JayJG: Are there any sources which reproduce the Hamas charter verbatim (translated of course)? "Describes the killing of Jews" is a bit short on details. Yes of course the achievement of a Hamas-style "Islamic Republic" by armed struggle entails loss of life and refugees, but so does any war. All I am saying is, that we accurately describe what they say they want to do and achieve. Are we not agreed that they say they want to abolish Israel and the PA as legal entities and absorb the whole population of both into an Islamic Republic? We must of course present all doubts and reservations expressed about their stated aims and their perceived aims. --AladdinSE 06:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

BlueTruth: In your revert edit summary, you said "Hamas clearly calls for expulsion--- read charter again". As you can read above, we are debating this very point in this Talk section. You say to read the charter, but the article itself makes reference to it when it discusses the status of non-Muslims under an "Islamic State":

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.

Can you quote from the Charter, with a source, where it calls for expulsion of the Jewish population? Also, please use accurate edit summaries. You reverted another edit which you failed to mention or give reason for. I provided a source for the use of the word "assassination" for Yahya Ayyash. What is your rationale for reverting it? Thank you. --AladdinSE 07:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Aladdin, article 31 of the charter "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions ... to coexist in peace ..." isn't enough to establish that Hamas intends to absorb, rather than kill or expel, the Jewish population. Article 7 says (my emphasis): " ...the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'" I think we should say instead that it's not clear what Hamas would do with the current population of Israel. SlimVirgin 07:31, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Slim, let's not be vage. So far Hamas actions speaks very clearly: Hamas object the right of the jews to have a country on what Hamas call "Islmic Wakf" (could be translted as "islamic territory". So the issue if they would kill all the jews or let some jews stay as Dhimis is really not a big difference.Most likley they would kill most and let few stay so that some Eurpeans (or Canadians) could say: "Hamas is not racist, look how they let the jews live in their midst as long as the jews behave according to Islam when they are in public." Zeq 16:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

AlladinSE, the point that I’m trying to make is following. You have two entities: X (Hamas) and Y (charter of Hamas, alleged charter of Hamas, some piece of paper that some Hamas member wrote that claims to be a charter of Hamas, and so forth.) You are asserting that because we know something about Y (only says abolish) we can derive something about X (only wants to abolish). That’s fine, so long as you can prove that Y (piece of paper) has anything to do with X (true nature of Hamas, it’s goals, intentions about Israel and so forth.) Some people are not ready to take that for granted. Jeffsnill 08:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Zeq, the "issue if they would kill all the jews or let some jews stay as Dhimis" is a HUGE difference. Also, what we think will "most likely happen" is POV and original research. Jeffsnill, like I said before, I am only advocating that we accurately state what Hamas says, not that we disallow all world speculation that they might contemplate, or practice something else. Therefore, the unqualified and repeated use of "destruction" where abolition is more accurate, is not NPOV as far as what Hamas claims. Slim, you're right about that part of Article 31. I only mentioned it because it was quoted in the Misplaced Pages article, whereas no other section was quoted that articulated expulsion or genocide in the event of the establishment of an Islamic republic. The reference to "fighting and killing Jews" could easily refer to the war to achieve the Islamic republic, not the post-republic system. As far as the charter is concerned, the policy is not spelled out in black and white. This is why we need to use journalistic sources and interviews with Hamas to fill in the blanks and speculation where the charter is ambivalent. For example, this BBC article says:

On the other hand, the group has shown itself willing to periodically suspend attacks in favour of Palestinian diplomacy, if the group sees fit.

"The main aim of the intifada is the liberation of the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem, and nothing more. We haven't the force to liberate all our land," Mr Rantissi told the BBC in 2002.

"It is forbidden in our religion to give up a part of our land, so we can't recognise Israel at all. But we can accept a truce with them, and we can live side by side and refer all the issues to the coming generations." (emphasis added).

I will search for such interviews and sources that give a clearer definition of post-republic hamas policy. I will also amend my edit about what the Charter directly calls for.--AladdinSE 22:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Terrorist activities before social activities

When discussing Hamas, their history of terrorism should be discussed prior to their history of social welfare programs. For instance, when discussing the organization in the opening paragraph (and I'm paraphrasing here, since this page changes every time I blink my eyes) the initial description of Hamas shouldn't be that they're a group who engages in social programs AND happens to launch deadly terrorist attacks. The harm they do to Israel is far greater, more note-worthy (and makes them more notorious) than the good they do for the Palestinians and so their history of terrorism should take precedence before any mention of their social programs are discussed. When their social activities are discussed first, it gives the impression that their terrorist activities are being downplayed. Let's remember this is still a designated terrorist organization that has committed indiscriminate slaughter of hundreds of innocents.--BlueTruth 17:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the history of edits for this article and the Talk discussions, you will see that consensus has not allowed insertions of "terrorist" labels directly. It is used only to state what countries, organizations and analysts themselves use the word. Also there is no reason or policy that I know of that compels us to use the order you specified, which is why I am reverting that edit. The harm they do versus the social good they do is entirely a matter of POV. --AladdinSE 22:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

And it seems you have your own biased POV concerning this subject so there's little use in arguing with you. The fact remains that Hamas is known primarily for being a terrorist organization and our own State Department has designated it as such. How can one even argue that they do more good than harm, when their actions have led to the deaths of hundreds of innocents? Please explain. --BlueTruth 00:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe 'your own State Department' has a web page where it can present its views. The aim of this site is not to transmit what that or any other institution thinks about any given subject. We should try to give balanced informations - which can include the views of your government, but may not take it for granted. Bertilvidet 20:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Hamas tell us what it is and what it stands for: Mukawama (euphmism for restitance) Zeq 21:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

My "own biased POV" is much more in line with the consensus repeatedly reached in this Talk discussion (including archives) about the controversial "terrorist" label and when and how it is used in the article. I think you have not quite grasped the concept of Misplaced Pages as a world-wide neutral reference, with editors from around the world. The "State Department" does not write policy here, however its position and statements are faithfully included. As for "how can anyone argue that they do more harm than good," I think you'll find that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians must think so because they voted them into office. It is no surprise that a people under a repressive military occupation for decades have turned to an extremist faction. Polls consistently show that over 70% of Palestinians support a 2-state solution. They voted en masse for a party that does not because the secular alternative has failed to achieve liberty, justice and equality and has offered only corruption and defeat. An oppressed, humiliated population does not have the luxury of "pure choices" and "absolute standards." Consider that the IRA's political wing Sinn Féin has always enjoyed uninterrupted electoral support even during the height of IRA terrorist activity. Situations like these are never black and white. This is what I think: either Hamas will be orientated to pragmatism by its success in the political sphere, or they will continue with their intransigence and terrorism-against-civilians policies, which will avail them nothing and they will be thrown out of office eventually when they also fail to deliver a State, much less handle the day-to-day running of the PNA. It also behooves us to remember that far more Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel than Israeli civilians killed by all militant Palestinian factions combined. There is no one "bad guy" here. --AladdinSE 06:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

this is just what i feel about terrorism

i really think hamas is just doing what they think is right for isreal. sure they use violent and morbid ways to handle the sitiuation but in todays world who doesnt use war to take care of something. the president of the usa has declined osamas peace treaty just to keep the WAR on terror going on. and we americans have the WAR on drugs and the WAR on racism and other things that dont sound correct or gives equal treatment to everyone. becuase war has slowly be queitly crept into todays civilazation. hamas is just reinforcing that theroy of getting the job done. and eventually they are going to hit isreal with anthrax and know one is going to be able to stop them. everyone want stop terrorism but they cant. you will never stop terrorism becuase some bozo idiot is going to think that violence is the only way to save the planet from itself. its just how todays world is thinking right now. so i think america should leave the middle east alone now that sadam is gone and they have their own government. but once agian this is just how i feel about these things. but terrorism isnt all that bad and i think we should fight terrorism with terrorism. but that is just my opinion. this is forsaken-soldier siging off

Intro

I made a few changes to the intro tonight to get rid of repetition and to make the flow of information more logical. Bertilvidet, you seem to have reverted everything, so I reverted back. I'm sorry for using rollback; I didn't mean to, and I should have left an edit summary. Instead of reverting, can you please say here specifically what you disagree with? I think many if not all of the changes were an improvement, so it would be good not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 10:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you didn't revert everything, just the first paragraph. Can you say why? SlimVirgin 10:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Please see - and participate in - the debate above "Steps by steps, paragraphs by paragraphs, intro, sections, conclusion.." and two subsequent sections...After too much time of reverting and debating we seemed to have some consensus about an introdution. Apart from the debate over the content I find the current introduction too long and heavy. Bertilvidet 10:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I shortened it a little and tidied up some of the writing, as it was a little repetitive, and I also tried to move the more salient points higher. Can you say what, specifically, you object to about the section you reverted? SlimVirgin 11:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Not bad, I suggest however we shorten this paragraph a bit more. Fin it still a bit heavy. What about this:

Hamas (حماس), acronym of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal'), is the largest Palestinian Islamist movement. The group is involved in social welfare programs throughout, but is known primarily for its history of suicide attacks against Israeli civilian and military targets.The group is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia, Canada, the European Union, Israel, and the United States.

The discussion about its fundings is out here. And also its long term goal of eliminating Israel is left out, since - as discussed later in the article - it is not clear how the organisation consider this long term goal.Bertilvidet 11:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I feel that leaves out some important points. I tried to include at the very top the key newsworthy points viz. known chiefly for its suicide attacks; has stated that its goal is an Islamic Republic; funded in part by Iran; listed as a terrorist group by several countries; won a majority in the election. What is the advantage of leaving some of these points out?

As for the group's long-term goal, we can only go by what's in their charter until they explicitly repudiate it, and they haven't. The election manifesto simply didn't mention it, but also didn't withdraw or replace it. SlimVirgin 12:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm more of the opinion of Bertilvidet. There is one and only good reason not to insist too heavily on TERROR (which is wikilinked twice in the introduction) - mind you, i'm not saying at all that it shouldn't be stated, i'm no friend of hamas -. But i think that if we want a Misplaced Pages page on Hamas to be of some use, it is not to carry on mindlessly what the US, Israel & Europe endlessly - and with justifications - state. Why? Because we're simply turning the page into a hate page, which takes no cold distance to analyse what's happening. Of course its terrorist activities should be stated. But why not simply write: "Hamas carries on terrorist activities?" in the introduction, instead of having twice wikilinked TERROR and terrorism, with a long list of countries who consider Hamas to be a terrorist group. This long list would be justified if they're was any controversy on the terrorist nature of Hamas. However, they are none. That's why we can simply writes, the shorter the best, "Hamas is a terrorist group which also carries on social activities." Of course, social activities are no excuse, and they are no excuses for terrorism. But there is no excuse either for blindly believing a state which tells you that they are weapons of mass destruction and that to protect humanity we need to engage in a war which may never end and overthrow various regimes, which we have in the past armed and supported. I recall having read somewhere about the NPOV policy: "NPOV is not consensus, because how would the Arabic Misplaced Pages turn than?". Well, why could'nt Arabic-speaking people encounter a NPOV which differs from the English NPOV? Wouldn't that be all the more normal, that the viewpoints of Arabic Misplaced Pages would'nt be the same as the English one (notwithstanding that Arabic-speaking people well know how to fight between themselves)? This is blatant ethnocentrism and Islamophobia, and this is playing the game of the so-called war on terror. The best way to fight terrorism (and by this name I certainly do include state terorrism and so-called counter-terrorism which uses black sites and so on) is not by hate and anathema, but by cold geopolitical understanding of the real stakes at issue. If English-speaking Wikipedians do not understand that Hamas has been elected in large part because of its social activities, and also because the corruption of the Palestinian Authority (for which Israel is largely responsible, mind you), and also because of the failure of the peace process, than this page has no use. Instead of shouting "hamas is evil", which is obvious, this page should explain how come Hamas managed to be elected, while several months ago it was boycotting the elections! This is real NPOV, and this is called political science. I am aware that Misplaced Pages NPOV results from long negotiations between people who have various POV. Have a look at historical revisionism and you will see what I mean, when one POV impedes an user from trying to enforce some real NPOV. But the interest of all, and it would be good to guard this at mind while writing on the Misplaced Pages page of Hamas, is to try to be the most coldly descriptive possible. Cold facts are lot more shrilling than outright cries. Tazmaniacs

Seems that we have several distinct discussions here. 1)Tazmaniacs has some very important points about the risk of turning the English Wiki eurocentric, the Western hegemony is noway NPOV! 2) Labelling any group as a terrorist group is a political biased judgement. We shall neither label Hamas as a terrorist group or a charity group. However it is indeed relevant that several states designate it as a terroist groups. 3)The language: I still believe the current introduction has too long sentences and too many details. Thats why I suggest we, in the introduction limit us to these three points: a) The largest Palestian Islamist movement. b) Provides extensive social services. c) Has carried out attacks on Israelis (including civilians) why it designated as a terrorist organization by several states. The more complicated debates about its fundings and what its aims actually are are dealt with in a fine matter in the article. Bertilvidet 15:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

A group who bomb civilian buses, called itself "resistence" and in it's charter called for an anhiliation of a democrtic country is for sure a terrorist entity. Don't "blame it on the west" Zeq 15:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Zeq, I agree on that point. But let's spread our opinions other places. And a group that runs hospitals, schools and provide social welfare is for sure a charitable entity. Here my only point is, that these debates do not belong in the introduction. Bertilvidet 15:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Funds

I think we all agree with you Zek, sincerely. For my part, it is so obvious that Hamas is a terrorist group that it should of course be said - the obvious must be said - but simply doesn't need to be said in three lines (there is a whole section detailing each bombing, isn't there?). I'm not blaming anything on the West, first of all because I don't believe in a dualist opposition between West and East ("Occident against Orientalism???", guy who thought that really was drunk on that day...). Terrorist groups have to pass by an underground economy to finance themselves. As other peoples do. Things are much more complex, and our interest all of us is exposing this complexity. Tazmaniacs

I'm abstaining from editing right now, but please considers that writing this, in the intro:

"Funded, according to the U.S. State Dept, by Iran, Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states, the group is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia, Canada, the European Union, Israel, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan."

... is simply carrying out without any CRITICAL point of view the US State Dept. informations. Who knows who funds the Hamas? I'm sorry, but this is not at all NPOV. I wouldn't care so much, if I didn't fear the US starting another war, somewhere else... When one wants to speak about terrorism, one must understand that NO terrorist group has been able to support itself on its own. Henceforth, it has always been looking for allies one way or the other. And, due to the nature of politics, these allies change a lot. Furthermore, it is the work of the intelligence agencies of controlling terrorist organizations. The first way to do it is to infiltrate them. And here the ambiguities can begin... Things are not so simple, and surely we Wikipedians are not the one to know who is manipulating who. It is silly to report such claims without any distance. What would have written Misplaced Pages when the US claimed that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction? Would we have written in the introduction:

"Iraq is a country ruled by dictator Saddam Hussein, allegedly involved in ethnic cleansing (against the Kurds in the 1980s, etc.) and who tried to invade Kuweit in the 1990s. Iraq, according to the U.S. State Dept, has got weapons of mass destruction, and is allegedly in possession of the nuclear bomb. After fighting with Iran during 8 years, it has turned toward Israel, on whom it launched a SCUD during the Gulf War."

What do you think about this??? I also recall that before Arafat's death, everybody was saying he was the main obstacle to peace, and that Israel had nobody to negotiate with. Who's got Israel to talk to now?Tazmaniacs

I found it regrettable that edits are made without previous concertation. Since nobody's has given feedback but that some POV have been pushed, I've felt obliged to moved the majority of the intro in the "overview", as to make the intro the more factual possible, and concentrated on the current issue (Misplaced Pages should take advantage of its reactiveness). Furthermore, since no comments have been made about those allegations of funding, and that I'm sure I'm not alone in considering that a NPOV requires a Critical Point of View on US State Dept sources concerning those matters, I've NPOVed it adding the allegations concerning MOSSAD's previous support. Fair game. Tazmaniacs 20:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of people's opinion about the length of the intro, it has to be properly written and encyclopedic. This isn't, because it removes the sources alleging that Hamas is a terrorist group, and inserts "thus qualifying it as ..." which is the editor's personal opinion. The current intro gives a more extensive overview and is sourced. SlimVirgin 23:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

OK. I conserved the current formulation in the intro about Hamas as a terrorist group with the US State Dept source. However, I did put again the discussion about where do Hamas funds come from in the Overview subsection. Please consider again the arguments above. We have no real way of verifying where those funds come from, and if the US State Dept is usually a reliable source for Misplaced Pages, I am sure many people agree with me that we can't cite it without a Critical Point of View concerning stuffs as Hamas, Iraq, Iran, Al Qaeda, etc. You do realize that some hawks are pushing for a war against Iran, don't you? You do realize that carrying on the US accusations without any distance, a requirement of objectivity, Misplaced Pages is not following the neutral point of view policy, and may fall in the trap of being an advocate of this propaganda. I am not at all a supporter of Islamism, but I'm not either a supporter of bringing hell to Iraq because of virtual WMD. Tazmaniacs 17:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Image caption

Zeq, the image caption is not the appropriate place to provide a "proper explanation" as to the extent of Hamas's territorial aims. The caption is factual and NPOV by describing everything west of the Jordan as "land that Hamas claims as Palestine". The caption doesn't assert that this is equivalent to historical Palestine, or to the reasonable boundaries of any future Palestine state, but only that this is the land that Hamas claims. Perfectly NPOV. It is in the article itself that we must place the explanation that Hamas's territorial goals include ALL of present day Israel in addition the occupied territories. It doesn't belong in the caption, which must be brief, and so I'm removing it. Babajobu 20:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Propre or not we can not endorse Hamas view. We need to be NPOV. The map is of what today is israel - this is a fact and as such it is NPOV. Zeq 21:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

You have a strange view of NPOV.

The Hamas emblem shows two crossed swords, the Dome of the Rock and a map of the land they claim as Palestine (present-day Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip). (bold emphasis added)

is the very essence of NPOV and was reached after a great deal of discussion that finally arrived at a consensus. See the archives. We are not endorsing anything, we are describing what Hamas says and portrays in its emblem.

Your version:

The Hamas emblem shows two crossed swords, the Dome of the Rock and a map of present-day Israel (which Hamas claims as Palestine).

is not only POV it is also factually incorrect. The map includes occupied territories that not even Israel claims is part of Israel. --AladdinSE 08:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Hamas is Terror Organization.

Dear Misplaced Pages Admins,

Some Pro-Palestinian Vandalist editing the page and describing Hamas as Islamist Movement.

Currently, by most Western Countries and by most people, Hamas is an Terror Organization for everything.

Hamas was responsible for many Suicide Bombings that killed many innicent victims.

I hope the vandalist will stop editing it and making it Islamist Movement, and they will let the truth goes out - Hamas is Terror Organization.

Comment The consensus (on this page and others) is that the word "terrorist" is a point-of-view word (i.e., one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter). The article already states that Europe, the U.S., and Israel classify Hamas as a terrorist organziation. Misplaced Pages does not represent any of those entities; it is a global encyclopedia. I hope you will take some time to read the discussion page for the article. OhNoitsJamie 21:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not think the consensus is based on the idea that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Targeting large groups of civilians for violent death has not historically been a strategy of most liberation movements ("freedom fighters"). However, "terrorist" is a vague and poorly defined word, and carries far more polemical weight than explanatory value. I think this is the source of the consensus not to use it. Babajobu 21:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll concede that the "freedom fighter" analogy may not be that accurate. I do think that the term "terrorist" is controversial enough that we should stick to using it in the context of who calls who a terrorist versus stating it as a fact. Thanks for the clarification. OhNoitsJamie 21:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• If terrorist is not good enough we can go for "war criminal against civilians" Zeq 21:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to violate the WP:3RR rule, but insisting that Misplaced Pages label Hamas as a "terrorist" organization seems to be a political statement to me. I'm not a supporter of Hamas, but I do strongly believe that Misplaced Pages should be as neutral as possible in such matters. OhNoitsJamie 21:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Status and rights; let's have a real political analysis

AladdinSE, I changed this back to "deal with" as the most NPOV phrase I could think of, because it's not just a question of what the status and rights of Israelis would be under Hamas, but whether they would be killed or expelled. SlimVirgin 08:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll accept that, but I returned the rest of the statement that provides important context about Hamas' concept of abolishing/overthrowing Israeli and secular Palestinian government. It goes to what I was saying above about the importance of distinguishing between destruction and abolition of states and governments. --AladdinSE 09:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I deleted the bit about if they succeed in overthrowing etc only because it seems clear from the context of the paragraph that that's what we're discussing, but if you feel it adds something, that's fine by me. I should have posted here before deleting it. My apologies. SlimVirgin 09:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, I know I remember reading something somewhere, about statements and interviews Hamas made talking about how they would not expel Jews and how Jews and Christians had guaranteed rights under an Islamic republic etc etc. We just have to dig those interviews/sources up, I know they're out there. It may have been a BBC World TV news segment, I have to find the transcript. --AladdinSE 09:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, what would be even more worthwhile is looking for political analysis from renowned political scientists about Hamas. Hamas, as we begin on this talk page to know, has gone through various phases of organization in its history. What's the common point between the 1987 Hamas, born at the same time as the Intifada; the Hamas of the Intifada al-Aqsa; and the Hamas which just won the elections? What is in commmon between the Hamas supported by Israel as a counterpoint to the PLO, and Hamas supported by Iran as an "ideological friend"? What is in common between Hamas covenant and Hamas realpolitik? What links together Hamas as a political party, Hamas as a social movement, and Hamas as a terrorist organization (those are three different levels of organization and spheres of actions, although I agree with Zek and other that they are related. But his sentence in the intro stating:

"The group is involved in suicide and other homicidal attacks against Jewish Israeli civilians in transportation and marketplace venues, and has directed social welfare programs for Palestinian Muslims throughout the West Bank and Gaza to further its goal of creating an Islamic Republic of Palestine in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip."

is a misleading sentence, because it enforces the POV that the social welfare programs are only a pretext (or an optional mean to achieve the end, which Hamas would dispose of if it could) for the creation of an Islamic Republic. With all my sincere respect to Zek, whom I do not know & I do not judge albeit our political differences (I've always thought that the greatest politics of all is being able to talk & even be friend - or more - with political opponents; actually, I think this is the essence of democracy & wisdom, being able - and enjoying - living with people with whom we disagree; I know too well - albeit luckily not enough - how much blood has been spilled for nothing on both sides), so, with all my respect, I seriously think that the best way to fight against Hamas is by explaining its strategy. Now, to give Zek another, less emotional, argument, I'll say like the marxists used to say: we probably have different political views, but we are objective allies against the Hamas, and none of my edits have been done to legitimate its terrorists tactics nor its islamist ideology). Again: how can we understand how Hamas won those elections, and is thus being turned into a governing party - and we all know what may change between a party that is in the opposition & a party that is in the government -. We shall see what happens, but already before those elections, several political analysts have underlined the fact that Hamas has been forced to pragmatically adapt its views. It doesn't mean they are less fanatical; it means they have changed position in the political field. If you want a comparison that you will like, Zek, maybe you can compare it to how early "revolutionary" fascism was different from fascism at the government, and from fascism at war, which ultimately finished with the nihilism nazism. We gain nothing by analysing political events listening only to our emotions or our ideological - and respectable - views; those important emotions & ideas, which of course play a role in politics, must be mixed with relations of power and the ever-changing field of politics. To provoc you a bit Zek, as I've been too nice this time, who would have thought that Ariel Sharon himself would be the one to prepare the retreat plan - even though critics have pointed out that this served a longer-view strategy. Well, one last provocation (:-) : if you can understand these critics that have been done against Sharon from a Palestinian POV, you probably understand that Hamas may be - is it wisdom or a simple ruse of war? that is to each of us to decide, not to Misplaced Pages -... let's say smart enough to shut up a bit now that it has the power. I fear the worse, because actually, I think that the worse that could happen may actually be a Hamas that become respectable. For another analogy, I point to Jörg Haider in Australia or Gianfranco Fini in Italia, "respectable neofascists", as if such a thing could exist... Come on guys! let's try to do some real political analysis, together even though we disagree, but we all have to gain something in this, and we are opposing a common enemy. That doesn't necesarily makes us friends, but it should make us be able to work together. Politics is about alliances, not about tears, which are good for our dear mothers & for sensationalism. As said Winston Churchill (i've learnt this today reading Misplaced Pages! how good can it be!): "If you're going to kill somebody, it cost nothing to be polite before". Tazmaniacs 10:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• This is an encyclopedia not an internet chat forum. Zeq 09:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

IP 68.211.66.29's changes

I actually think that they were an improvement. Removed weasel words, made the article read more NPOV, and it's certainly not as though they inserted any pro-Palestinian propaganda. Babajobu 04:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

His edit is a setback. He has edited here under multiple IPs, against consensus (if slim, jayjg and myself are in agreement about wordings this is a rear event) He is most likely some who is on a mission tio improve Hamas public image. They just hired a PR firm. Maybe he is part of it. Zeq 05:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Babajobu 05:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Who needs a PR firm when you have Slim, Jayjg anf Zeq making the Israeli POV the consensus POV?--68.211.66.29 00:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

History & Ideology: which should comes first

The order has been reverted again, coming back to the version where Hamas subsections on belief, the covenant, antisemitism precedes the quick timeline & history. I personally believe that history - actions - are more important than ideological proclamations. In politics, as Hannah Arendt said during the Eichmann trial, you judge people & organizations on acts, not on intentions. Therefore, it is POV to put before the ideology subsection. Furthermore, the history section and timeline allows for a quick overview of what happened since 20 years. Less people know that than that Hamas is antisemitism. For the understanding of the article and of Hamas, and for NPOV, I really think that history should become first, lest we become as much trapped in ideological concerns than they may be. Tazmaniacs

I disagree with your order. The organization and its ideology should be described first, its actions second. This is an encylopedia, not a trial. Misplaced Pages is not a court of judgment. Poyzin IV 19:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Uh? can you explain yourself? If you want to bring this in the discussion, I'll reply that putting the ideology subsection first is not only making Misplaced Pages "a court of judgment", as you say, but it also puts the burden of the proof on Hamas, instead of on the (more than well-founded) accusations against it. Tazmaniacs

How do you figure that? When I read an encyclopedic entry about a group, I first want to find out who they are and what their stated purpose is. No one has any "burden of proof" to explain on behalf or against Hamas, we're just editors here to describe others' views. By the way, if the editors opinion(s) come through in the article and are blatantly recognizable, then the article is not NPOV. Readers don't need Misplaced Pages to form their opinion for them. Poyzin IV 20:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics