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Regrettably, personal priorities have placed me on a complete Wiki-break until Saturday, September 18th.

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Re : Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list

This arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision may be viewed at the link above.

• User:Piotrus resigned the administrator tools during the case proceedings and may only seek to regain adminship by a new request for adminship or by request to the Arbitration Committee.
• User:Piotrus is banned for three months. At the conclusion of his ban, a one year topic ban on articles about Eastern Europe, their talk pages, and any related process discussion, widely construed, shall take effect.
• User:Digwuren is banned for one year. He is directed to edit Misplaced Pages from only a single user account, and advise the Arbitration Committee of the name of the account that he will use. Should he not advise the committee by the end of the one year ban, he will remain indefinitely banned until a single account is chosen.
• User:Digwuren is placed on a one year topic ban on articles about Eastern Europe, their talk pages, and any related process discussion, widely construed. This shall take effect following the expiration of both above mentioned bans.
• The following users are topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year:

• User:Biruitorul, User:Dc76, User:Martintg, User:Miacek, User:Radeksz, User:Vecrumba, User:Tymek

• User:Jacurek is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for six months.
• User:Tymek is strongly admonished for having shared his account password. He is directed to keep his account for his own exclusive use, and not to allow any other person to use it under any circumstance.
• The editors sanctioned above (Piotrus, Digwuren, Martintg, Tymek, Jacurek, Radeksz, Dc76, Vecrumba, Biruitorul, Miacek) are prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with Russavia on any page of Misplaced Pages, except for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution.
• All the participants to the mailing list are strongly admonished against coordinating on-wiki behavior off-wiki and directed to keep discussion of editing and dispute resolution strictly on wiki and in public. All editors are reminded that the editorial process and dispute resolution must take place on Misplaced Pages itself, using the article talk pages and project space for this purpose. No discussion held off-wiki can lead to a valid consensus, the basis of our editorial process. Off-wiki coordination is likely to lead to echo chambers where there is a false appearance of neutrality and consensus.

For the Arbitration Committee, Mailer Diablo 17:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC) - Discuss this

For those eagerly expecting my topical return, that would be after one year, 3 weeks, and 24 hours (per "consecutive" clause), you can check my Latvian heritage page here, "Misplaced Pages countdown".

Jstor

I noticed you said you pay for Jstor articles. I have access to Jstor and could help with research if you need it. MBisanz 21:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Technically I have access too, but only at NYPL in the city, not at my local Brooklyn library, and at NYPL I can only get printed (paid for, I think it was $1/page) copies. I'll definitely keep your offer in mind, much appreciated!  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  21:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Race

Well, it is a quote I am bound to like personally. It sounds pretty much like anthropological orthodoxy, not just fifty years ago but, if anything, moreso today. Who actually said it? Who is Tumin? Is the source relevant for the article? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, in his day, Sherry Washburn was one of the world's leading physical anthropologists (up there with Lewis Leakey) but his specializaton I think was primatology, not genetics. But definitely a leading scholar, he pretty much headed the Berkeley anthropology department at the time. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I rather thought you'd appreciate the quote. (!) The work (published by B'nai B'rith) is a compendium of questions related to race and intelligence which Tumin asked a series of scientists: Henry Dyer (educational testing), Silvan Tomkins (psychology), Ralph Turner (sociology), and Sherwood Washburn (anthropology), with Tumin's summary for each question. I should (other window, done) fix attribution of the quote to Sherwood. To your question, whether R&I or (perhaps better for) History of..., it would seem to me that the anthropological view, being less interested in explaining the latest numbers, offers a useful perspective. One of the key works "behind" the questions was Audrey Shuey's "The testing of Negro intelligence" (1958), along with later ones of similar ilk. What is of particular interest is that (bold is Tumin's): "The four scientists are in substantial agreement that the claims advanced by Shuey, Putnam and Garrett (and later by George) cannot be supported by any substantial scientific evidence." (They all made the racial inferiority claim.) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 15:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, that certainly does sound relevant. Also, perhaps for the article on race. I have argued there that in academe, the discipline (viewed as a natural science and not just as a social science) that specializes in human beings is anthropology, so the Race article should privilege the views of anthropologists. I still believe this, but somewhere in the top half or top third - where the history of the idea is presented, and different views (taxonomic, essentialist, lineage etc.) are summarized, it might also be useful to summarize Tumin since he is explicitly seeking to represent diverse sciences - obviously in this regard the differences among them are as important as the similarities (not because one discipline is better than another, but because - I presume) the differences reveal something about each discipline. Do you have confidence in the method by which Tumin selected his sources? I know in 1963 Washburn was among the tops in anthropology, are the other scholars equally notable in their fields? Were they being asked to give their own opinion, or speak for their discipline? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

"You kind of have to read the whole thing." That said, Tumin:

• asks the obvious questions
• quotes an excerpt from joint statement at UNESCO conference in Paris (on race and intelligence), notably, anthropologists don't include mental characteristics in classifictions, et al.
• mentions recent works bringing up the notion of inequality: Shuey and works quoting hers
• four scientists at the top of their professions were asked to read Shuey and Putnam ("Race and Reason") and to respond to a series of 11 questions about them.

those four described as (quoting)

• Dr. Henry C. Dyer, Vice President, Educational Testing Service, Princeton, N.J., one of the country's foremost authorities on intelligence and ability testing;
• Professor Silvan S. Tomkins, Professor of Psychology, Princeton University, Princeton, N.J., one of the country's leading specialists in personality testing;
• Professor Ralph H. Turner, Chairman of the Department of Sociology, University of California at Los Angeles, and a noted expert on social and cultural patterns in the Negro population; and
• Professor Sherwood L. Washburn, formerly President of the American Anthropological Association and Chairman of the Department of Anthropology at the University of California at Berkeley, one of the world's most distinguished anthropologists.

So, a bit of both, as they provide personal answers but also from the perspective of their disciplines. They are not described as, nor do they presume to be, official representatives of their disciplines—but their credentials are clear. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

FYI, Tumin quotes this portion of the 1950 UNESCO statement (point 9.)

Whatever classification the anthropologist makes of man, he never includes mental characteristics as part of those classifications. It is now generally recognised that intelligence tests do not in themselves enable us to differentiate safely between what is due to innate capacity and what is the result of environmental influences, training and education. Wherever it has been possible to make allowances for differences in environmental opportunities, the tests have shown essential similarity in mental characters among all human groups. In short, given similar degrees of cultural opportunity to realize their potentialities, the average achievement of the members of each ethnic group is about the same.

Hope this helps. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

A tidbit on significance, some part of this is reprinted in Hubert Humphrey's "School Desegregation: Documents and Commentaries." Neither this or Humphrey's is available online. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, you have convinced me that this is a relevant and reliable source for the articles on Race and race and intelligence. It is just a matter of contextualizing it (when it was written, and why) and figuring out where exactly it belongs in each article. I wouldn't give it as much weight as professional association statements, but I think that you could combine quotes from this source with presentations of professional asociation statements effectively i.e. any specific example from this book helps illustrates the relationship between the particular (individual views) and the general (collective statements). Slrubenstein | Talk 10:28, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I tracked down a copy of Humphrey's text (to buy, not borrow—the NYPL is not terribly convenient to work these days) and expect that to show up in a week or so. I would offer Humphrey as an unimpeachable source in regard to intelligent political discourse—it will be interesting to see what HHH cites in support of what public policy. I'd add that Tumin's summary of responses to each question presented is quite cogent, it's unfortunate it's not easier to share it. I'm a bit full up at the moment with some drop-dead deadlines but might find time later next week to scan it. Whether or not we actively use sources which are reliable but a bit off the beaten path in actual content, they are valuable to find and to discuss. Clearly, hashing and re-hashing the same compendium of well-worn and well-known tomes has not yielded consensus. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 13:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Race, evolution and behavior

Vecrumba,

I was wondering whether you’d be interested in helping try to improve the neutrality of the article about Rushton’s book Race, Evolution, and Behavior. There’s a discussion on the article talk page where I think your input might be valuable, and your contributions might also be helpful in the article itself. I’m currently waiting for a book to arrive that I’ve mail-ordered to use as a source there, but once it does I’m intending to work on this article some more also. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I did order Sesardic's much-pilloried text, despite not mainstream it will be interesting to see what he says, if anything, regarding Rushton. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 21:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Correlation versus causation, it's always the great debate regardless of the subject matter. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 21:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Arrivederci R&I proceedings

I see no useful purpose in further participation, and as I'm not a named party I've unwatched all the associated pages. Editors are welcome to contact me here with any questions. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 21:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Mikemikev

I have a history with Mikemikev and am in no way neutral. But I was hoping you could build a bridge between him and myself and others - you and disagree a good deal but you strike me as principled and fair. So I am disappointed to see the trouble you are having with Mikemikev. Do you feel you could take it upon yourself to try to mentor him? I fear if no one does, it will just lead to an RfC or something. Slrubenstein | Talk

Just saw the banner up top. My condolences. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:04, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for that. 96 of her 98 years were good ones, though I'll hopefully never know the horrors of war my parents lived through.

On Mikemikev, great minds think alike, perhaps. I've dropped a Wiki-mail or two in Mikemikev's direction—clearly he's well read and could be valuable. Right now, however, I see him as having become the yin to Mathsci's yang. However, in keeping with having unwatched the R&I arbitration, I'm not joining in, reporting, or anything.

My experience is that 99.99% of editors can agree to disagree, however, after years of WP abuse—and the first-hand experience that even paid propaganda pushers can be civil, if obstinate—I have no stomach for anyone treating anyone else like an idiot. If Miekmikev survives the arbitration and feels ready to be more constructive, I'm glad to assist in any way I can including the occasional whisper in Mikemikev's ear. I've had some modest success in bridging gulfs in the past, as long as editorial differences, no matter how great, are based in good faith. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 23:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

III think you will see one major difference between Mikemikev and Matchsci if you just go to User Contributions and look at their earliest contributions - I often find this a good way to get a sample that says something about their POV and editing interests ... to put a contemporary edit conflict into a larger context. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I've been avoiding the subject, so to speak, but of course you're right. The best way to understand any conflict is to go back to the beginning. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 13:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

A fresh cup of coffee offered a few minutes for browsing. Let's just say that it's clear whose modus operandi has always been to throw in barbs and impune editor's conduct, choices of editor to agree with, etc. Thanks. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 18:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Alas, Dante's protagonists will be constructing ice hotels for the damned before any mentoring is to be had. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 13:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Reread the Inferno - the centre is ice. <g> Collect (talk) 14:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that! Sadly, only read in spot quotes, and, unfortunately, I've been perusing the Inferno through my Gustave Dore album... time to download and read in toto. That said, on the other, perhaps it's a serendipitously sign that there is hope after all. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Then again, perhaps not. Sigh. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 03:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

And gone from bad to worse. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I’m sorry about this. I think you’ve been a very reasonable editor during the short time you’ve been involved in these articles, and from what I’ve seen of your edits, you don’t deserve the insults that Mikemikev is flinging at you. During the eight months or so that Mikemikev has been involved in these articles, I think he’s usually been reasonable also. I don’t understand what’s gotten into him during the past few weeks, but this isn’t exactly normal behavior for him. When and if he gets over his current attitude, I hope you’ll be willing to give him another chance, if he hasn’t been topic banned by that point. --Captain Occam (talk) 07:23, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

IMHO the R&I arbitration has only been a venue for amplifying bad feelings. I looked through Mikemikev's edit history from the start at Slrubentein's suggestion and I'd agree with your assessment. That's why I haven't shown up back at the arb to support Mathsci's "ban him now" lobbying; that, and that Mathsci has shown a denigrating attitude toward other editors from the very beginning (I've looked through his edits from the start as well). IMHO Mathsci is a contributing, not moderating, factor; I wouldn't support anything Mathsci lobbies for at the arb even if circumstances, at face value, appeared to support his position. Mikemikev's behavior can be attributed to misunderstanding and a poisoned atmosphere; Mathsci has insulted editors at the arb who aren't even involved (IMHO part of the poison). PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Just a note concerning Mikemikev: he seem to be somewhat successful at getting you to lose your temper. Please don't play his game. Even though we do disagree on many things, you do strike me as a fair editor and your edits strike me as logical and appropriate under most circumstances. At this point, I am more or less forced to believe Mikemikev is strictly trolling to get as many editors as possible to lash out at him (my guess is just so as to sidetrack any possible collaboration on the R&I articles). I'd hate to see you blocked because he made you lose your calm.--Ramdrake (talk) 16:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not mad, I'm sad. "Get a life" can be taken as being mad, it's not. The bright side is that if I'm under attack from the extremes of both sides, I'm somewhere in the neutral center. I've reached out to another editor with whom I believe Mikemikev has less issues as with me to suggest a more constructive approach. I wasn't expecting this downturn of events, I was hoping to build a bridge to Mike's editorial POV. Since we already know people will disagree on race, who disagrees with whom and over what is irrelevant; what is relevant is being able to talk about it without insulting each other. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, absolutely. We need to be able to discuss our disagreements and "get to the point" on the reasons why we disagree (so to speak). Then, only do we have a chance of building a position acceptable to all parties. :) --Ramdrake (talk) 16:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

On the motivation, speculation is irrelevant of course. Many have claimed to read my mind and been erroneous in their conclusions. :-) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 18:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Inception

you said:there's only been fairly crude wiring to the brain's vision center, so what that technology call? I just want to know.75.73.152.238 (talk) 11:40, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I know that there has been work with implants connected to external devices to stimulate the visual cortex to provide some limited capabilities--more like patches which are "on" or "off"--for visual communication to the totally blind. It's not an area of research I follow, though. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 15:02, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

OK.75.73.152.238 (talk) 22:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Moscow and BGN

Moscow, like Florence, has a conventional name field; I have clarified accordingly. What we don't want, I think, is for people to people to jump up and down insisting on the Approved name field, which would be Moskva; if BGN always had a conventional name field, it would be a useful standard, but most of the time it doesn't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I've read through a number of presentations the BGN folk have delivered at various symposia regarding the fine art of location naming. The "conventional" name field, by only being present when there is significant English language usage other than the approved/standard name for a place, makes it very clear there is colloquial English usage that takes precedence over other forms. It is this clarity of providing the "conventional" name when, and only when, needed which is, in fact, the very value of the BGN database. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

P.S. "Firenze" is a second-order administrative division while "Florence" is the city (seat of a first-order administrative division). PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

But actually looking at the database shows that the conventional name field doesn't exist whenever needed; it exists for a few very well-known cities. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The implication, at least, is that the approved/standard name is fine for English usage. Do you have an example or two I can take a look at? I did exchange some Emails with the BGN folk quite some time ago when I had some questions. Note that BGN, although maintained by a U.S. governmental agency and providing usage for the State Department et al., is independent, and so you will find State Department press releases which differ from BGN usage; in those cases, BGN is still reflective of common usage. (That seems, however, the inverse of the case you are talking about, where common English usage is, in fact, missing from BGN.) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:14, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I gave one: Frankfurt (which our nationalists have moved to Frankfurt am Main). At that point I stopped looking; if they don't supply the conventional name there, there is no hope for the towns where our naming disputes actually arise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I've also noticed that when there's no conventional but an approved and short version, the short version is invariably the English vernacular. That would be the case here. This might be worth something following up on with the BGN folk for a bit more clarity. Obfuscating this particular example it that there are a pile of Frankfurts or Frankfurt-Somethings (!). PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 22:07, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Advice?

Thanks for your helpful comments in the arbitration enforcement thread.

That said, I was wondering if you had any advice for me about where to go from here. I trust your opinion and respect your involvement in these articles a lot, and I'm still a novice here with a lot to learn. One of the clearest messages I got from the arb enforcement thread was that when I see something that I think should be reverted, I should just revert it myself rather than expecting someone else to do it. Do you think that's acceptable for me to do at this point? I definitely don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I care a lot about beginning to contribute to these articles in productive ways.

I also have some other ideas of things I can do that I doubt anyone would have a problem with, like adding some references to the section on mental chronometry. If you have any other suggestions about things I can be doing to help out, I'd be interested to know.

I'm a little concerned that I'm going to end up inadvertently acting in a way people associate with Occam, even if it's for a completely different reason, like happened recently with my comments on Victor Chmara's page. If you notice me doing something like this, would you mind pointing it out to me? I'd hate to repeat a mistake like this completely accidentally.

I'm aware that I'm going to be heavily scrutinized for a while here, and I'll probably be having to walk on eggshells for a bit. Any advice on how to keep in line while still contributing to these articles would be appreciated a lot. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 07:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Any newcomer to any contentious topic who reverts anything will be immediately dinged for edit warring. All enforcement actions are content-agnostic; there will be plenty of folks looking to ding you because they've already decided you're just Occam with a longer name and will denounce any revert you make as Occam's if they think he would have done the same. No one making those accusations cares whether or not it's actually so, i.e., guilty with no prospect for proving innocence with protestations of innocence on your part taken as your being difficult and disruptive.

  If you see something that "does not belong" or is "missing," start a new section on article talk (if there isn't one in progress already on the point in question) and discuss whatever needs to be removed, put back, changed, etc. The much heralded, touted, and promoted "unofficial slogan" exhorting editors to "be bold" in editing is, regrettably, little more than a euphemism for the hurt locker awaiting new, especially, participants in any area of contention who edit first and discuss later. (The shabby treatment of new arrivals at articles is a more general and well-known phenomenon.)

 The bottom line is that if there is a subject you care about you have to be prepared to deal with the topic and also the politics—and that editors who dispute your editorial POV for whatever reason will line up to question your motives with innuendo, accusations, and lies. Regrettably, "being nice" to others is not a prerequisite for WP participation; there are perennial icons of abuse who point the way for others to emulate. This is not cynicism speaking, it is merely how the system works. Forewarned is forearmed.

 Lest this sound like whining doom and gloom before my morning coffee kicks in, the reward is that you will meet editors of integrity who care about the same subjects as much as you do. And if you find you disagree with someone, and they are someone whose editorial position you respect, you will find yourself widening your horizons. You may well continue to agree to disagree, but in the process you will gain a deeper understanding of different viewpoints. On most days, that makes wading through the muck worthwhile. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Discussing on user pages instead of at article talk can be interpreted as recruiting for your editorial position if there's an expectation on the part of your (and the contacted editor's) antagonists that the editor you contacted might agree with you. If you do need to kvetch somewhere, pick someone's talk page who can't be construed to be your or Occam's ally.

P.P.S. Except for the pointer to your artwork, your user page is blank. You might want to spend a bit of time providing some information about subjects you care about and how you came to be interested in them. I do realize this can be a bit more of a challenge if you're not using your "real" identity on WP and wish to guard it (for good reason). Still, I think it would be helpful. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Two bits of friendly advice to follow up on what Peters said: 1) You can never do too much to bring verifiable reliable secondary sources into articles. At present, Misplaced Pages is chock full of statements that "everyone knows" but that can't be verified, and may in fact be in disagreement with the best sources. (I would say that is especially the case for any articles that have anything to do with IQ.) Looking up published sources and thinking about those deeply, and perhaps suggesting new sources if you have access to a good library, is a great way to win favor with editors of all points of view who are truly curious about a subject. And it's just the right thing to do if we are all here to edit an encyclopedia, as we are. 2) There is great value in practicing editing on articles for which you have no particular point of view. There are 6,936,591 articles on Misplaced Pages, essentially all of which need further editing and improvement, and a person with broad intellectual interests can find plenty to do here to help. There is a copyedit backlog elimination drive going on right now, dozens of WikiProjects with lists of stub articles to expand, and plenty of other sources of suggestions of things to improve on Misplaced Pages. Practicing collaboration with other editors on less contentious topics and projects helps develop the editorial social skills that allow for smooth interaction on the contentious topics and result in indisputable improvement in article content. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

@Ferahgo. "when I see something that I think should be reverted, I should just revert it myself rather than expecting someone else to do it". That's exactly how I have earned my topic ban. But you are on the right track. Edit something different, and no one will accuse you of "meatpuppetry".Biophys (talk) 22:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Your and my topic bans

I am very sorry, but I have removed a section in your latest edit, as it violates your topic ban. As to my stated "voluntary topic ban", I have avoided all edits in articles that might be of interest to Digwuren or his Misplaced Pages supporters. The article you brought up has never been part of this dispute – neither I or my opponents in the DIGWUREN disputes have ever edited the article before, at least to my knowledge. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:22, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. – As to "saving your butt" I and others believe that you commenting in a case about Russavia was a violation of your interaction ban. I believe, that if the case had ever resulted in blocks or other sanctions, you would have been among those sanctioned. As to my BOLDness, If you or anyone else involved had somehow indicated dissatisfaction at my decision I would have reverted and offered my apology. You did not. However, accusing me of improper action as you did here by innuendo is most unwelcome. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

P.P.S. – I have also removed your attempted WP:OUTING. Thanks for the link anyway, it was quite interesting, to say the least. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec) As I first wrote to you back in 2007, I failed to understand the source of your position on the Soviet legacy in the Baltics in particular given your balanced and valuable contributions to WP elsewhere. I fail to see how you can consider something as violating my topic ban over that area of contention in pointing out your activity while at the same time stating that very activity on your part is of no interest with respect to the area of conflict or editors interest in that topic matter. Really, I would rather you not contact me or follow me further on this at the moment as you appear to be overly interested in my attempts to move on and, instead, drawing me back to the conflict as if to prove I'm some sort of source of disruption.

There was no attempt at "outing" on my part. I was countering your contention that there is some sort of on-Wiki speculation fueling editorial conflict; the speculation, in fact, is off-Wiki and unrelated to our past or present mutual interactions. As for the rest, if you are indeed a member of an activist political group with a decidedly anti-Estonian axe to grind, that should be noted to avoid areas of COI, that is in keeping with WP policy. If you are not, then obviously it matters not who you are, and actions should be taken to avoid speculation. There are more than a few Wikipedians who have adopted the monikers of various personalities. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 04:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. There was no innuendo. Your persistent contact is indeed trying my patience, and if these conversations of ours continue we will be both blocked as being at fault, so, again, I respectfully suggest you disengage. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 05:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

P.P.S. I do look forward renewing our topical debates 129 days, 11 hours and change from now. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 05:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Really, having thought further on your charge of outing, that is quite serious and given your accusation has caused an ArbCom member to (rightfully, were your contention true) threaten me with a block at their talk, I will be conducting any further correspondence regarding your charges off-Wiki so as to not open myself to further—and false, I regret—accusations on your part. Recall:

1. you inserted yourself in a dialog unrelated to you (I don't recall your having any personal EEML evidence pages) to make accusations I was preparing to go back on the warpath, that is, called me a liar for stating my purpose was to put the past behind us;
2. you falsely represented yourself as voluntarily not editing in the area of contention: the Soviet legacy in the Baltics and Eastern Europe, when, in fact, you have edited on said topic, and removed my statement of evidence in response to your false statement (and repeated it since, elsewhere); you should not have made that false statement in the first place;
3. lastly, you falsely accuse me of attempting to "out" you.

Given our seemingly diametrically opposed editorial positions (at least on one subject), I'm flattered you've seen fit to pay as much attention to me as you have even though it's months more before I'm free to return to my primary area of editing interest.

Please feel free to return for more constructive dialog. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I see you are (my perception) disingenuously (end of my perception) attempting to put the cat back in the bag. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Petri, I still hope to someday understand the basis for your ardent anti-Estonianism, particularly your denunciation of Estonian "fascism." (My personal experience is that such fervor is often born of personal family experiences projected on to a people or events as a whole.) Perhaps we can have that conversation on-Wiki when my topic ban expires? Meanwhile, I have said all that needs be said for the moment regarding this "wikinteraction." Ever trusting our next meeting will be more collegial, PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 23:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Alas, spoke just a wee bit too soon, still doing more cat-stuffing, I see. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 23:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I am preparing a very polite response to your questions. However, you will have to wait for tomorrow. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Petri. I would recommend we agree to disagree for the moment and reconvene when your other current entanglements have been put to rest, and you've also had time to consider your actions regarding myself. Any politeness on your part following so closely on the tail of your allegations will just seem like more back in the bag cat-stuffing. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 02:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LIV (August 2010)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue LIV (August 2010) Front page Project news Articles Members Editorial

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The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has started. You are cordially invited to help pick fourteen new coordinators from a pool of twenty candidates. This time round, the term has increased from six to twelve months so it is doubly important that you have your say! Please cast your vote here no later than 23:59 (UTC) on Tuesday, 28 September 2010.

With many thanks in advance for your participation from the coordinator team,  Roger Davies 19:46, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

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Thank you for joining WP:WikiProject Bacon! Feel free to post questions, concerns, comments, suggestions for improvement to the WikiProject, updates on related events and goings-on, etc, at the talk page, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Bacon. We now have six members so far, yay! Thanks again for signing up as a participant, -- Cirt (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LV (September 2010)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue LV (September 2010) Front page Project news Articles Members Editorial

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Please note that there's a new discussion at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/2010 ArbCom election voting procedure in which you may wish to comment. It is expected to close in about a week. You have received this message because you participated in a similar discussion (2009 AC2 RfC) last year.  Roger 05:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Your comment on this edit - the most recent of a little revert war - might be very constructive. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll take a closer look at the content being referenced in the edit that's been added and removed. I tend to agree that while genetic and ethnic heritage correlate, it's really a question of what bits and pieces of genetic heritage are reflected in an ethnic population (groups diluting or contributing being rather determined by personal -phobe or -phile perspectives) rather than (at this point in human evolution and mobility) genetics defining an ethnic group. It doesn't help informed discussion when there are folks running around looking for "unique" genetic markers so they can say, Q.E.D.! Here's biological proof we're different. (I recall something along those lines with the Irish some years ago.) I can only observe that when you search for lab results to prove your personal POV there is a quite remarkable tendency for one to succeed (!). The point is that genetic marker or not doesn't make a Gaelic-speaker any more or less Irish. Language followed by customs are the key. IMHO religion is a late-comer, certainly with regard to Christian or later; I personally don't consider religion, or considerations such as geopolitical alignments, to have anything to do with ethnic identity. That people of the same ethnic group denounce/renounce and kill each other over religion and politics is their mutual downfall—imagined differences can be more powerful than real differences. But I wander off topic! PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 19:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

For example, a former coworker of mine is of German ancestry (grandmother off the boat, spoke German obviously). He, however, doesn't speak German, follow German customs, etc. So, in ethnic terms, without the linguistic and cultural trappings (that would be essentials), he's gone melting-pot American. In this case, genetically he may very well carry the markers that say "German," but that does not make him part of the ethnic group. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 19:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The key point for me is that ethnic identity is complex. I didn't turn to you because I expect us to agree on all points, but because I know you would be a thoughtful participant in the discussion and we need more thoughtful editors discussing the matter. The key thing is to raise the level of discourse on that article's talk page. We need more well-informed participants in the discussion. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The learning is in understanding differences, no? :-) It might be a day or two before I have a chance to weigh in at the (worthwhile) discussion. Best, PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 13:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

FYI

. Offliner (talk) 15:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC)