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| * I have four or five books on Dzogchen that I'm going to scan through and see if I can piece together some better, substantiated information. For instance, Tregchod and Thodgal aren't even mentioned in this article, nor is the Rainbow Body mentioned. I think this article, in general, is really lacking. ] 09:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC) | * I have four or five books on Dzogchen that I'm going to scan through and see if I can piece together some better, substantiated information. For instance, Tregchod and Thodgal aren't even mentioned in this article, nor is the Rainbow Body mentioned. I think this article, in general, is really lacking. ] 09:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC) | ||
| * I agree, though I think there is a lot of good material in the article that could stand some grooming and reorganization. As is often (I feel) the case, there is also a lack of high-level, more easily accessible introduction. A lot of what is written assumes (perhaps) a bit too much background on the part of the (non-specialist) reader -- but I think that can be remediated with a good introductory paragraph -- and yes that was the sound of me volunteering myself to write it :) | |||
| ] 06:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 06:35, 22 February 2006
Dzogchen in Nyingma and Bon
In my view, a disambiguation page may be appropriate to distinguish between Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen traditions, or else further clarification in this page. There is definitely a range of opinion as to how similar or dissimilar the two are. Thoughts?
What is the Tibetan title of the Maha Ati Tantra
What is the Tibetan title of the Maha Ati Tantra? Is it translated? ISBN?
- Maha Ati Tantra isn't a specific tantric text. It is a class of tantra. Tantra, in the Nyingma tradition, is divided into nine vehicles or yanas. Maha Ati Tantra is the highest of these vehicles. --Albill
Actually, Maha Ati is not even a class of tantra (at least in the Nyingma system). This seems to be an invention of H.H. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to meld MAHAmudra and ATIyoga (i.e. phyag rgya chen po and rdzogs pa chen po in Tibetan). Albill seems to be mistakenly thinking Mahayoga and Atiyoga are one in the same. The Nyingma school groups its tantras into 6, not 9, divisions. There are a total of nine yanas, or vehicles, in the Nyingma system, but only the last 6 are tantric. These are the sravakayana and pratyekabuddhayana (which are associated with the Hinayana), the bodhisattvayana (associated with sutra Mahayana), kriya, upa, and yoga tantra (the outer tantras), and maha, anu, and ati yoga (the inner tantras). As you can see here, Mahayoga (typically identified with creation/development stage meditation) and Atiyoga (identified with "signless" completion stage meditation) are totally distinct categories. They have their own textual traditions and lineage masters and are totally different in terms of practice. Hope this helps clarify the issue!
Why is this page marked NPOV?
I can't see anything in it that is particularly controversial, considering the article is explaining a religious tradition. The talk page doesn't seem to have anything in it to explain this NPOV tagging.
Dzogchen itself is controversial, of course.
BTW: there's a contradiction regarding the origins of Dzogchen. Was its source Padmasambhava? If so, how come Garab Dorje is expounding it? Garab Dorje was one of Padmasambhava's teachers. Anyway, according to my understanding, Dozgchen is supposed by its adherents to be a teaching of the Buddha. The lineage is rather odd, though, because it involves at least one teacher of implausible longevity. But then you tend to get that with tantric lineages.
--MrDemeanour 12:14, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
- I (hesitantly) untagged it, because I eventually found the explanation for the NPOV tag in history; and it's supposedly been addressed, over a month ago. I'm a wikinewbie - let me know if this was wrong! It could still be improved, IMO; currently the only living Dzogchen teacher cited in the body is Sogyal Rimpoche, who has published prolifically, but isn't universally regarded as an unimpeachable authority. There are plenty of classical authorities that could be cited instead. Citing (under references) of books that are actually in print seems to me to be not only unobjectionable, but entirely appropriate.
Dzogchen and Nirvana
I have removed Klimov's addition of a link to Nirvana because Dzogchen is a state of non-duality; it is the realization that there is no Nirvana and no Samsara because there is no difference between the two. It is incorrect to think that Dzogchen is a path to Nirvana or that they are the same thing. Csbodine 18:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Klimov:
Yes, sure, I agree with that.
However, I don't think that this page is written mostly for the people who understand that.
I do think that this page would be read mostly by the people who do not have any idea what is dzogchen and if the term designates a mental state or a religion or teaching or meditation or something. If they somehow came to the page, they seem to me should have heared about nirvana. I've added the link to nirvana to create positive motivation for the newbies.
It seems to me that the link to nirvana should be put back and the above explanation by Csbodine somehow worked in as a note or 'small print' or something like that. --Klimov 22:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying, but I also think that it is important for the Wiki entry to explain what it is, not what it is sorta like. Obviously (maybe?), Dzogchen is a topic beyond the grasp of (or at least very counter-intuitive to) most Tibetan practioners, let alone the general public. Therefore, it is important that the article give as clear and concise and acurate description. I'm not really happy with the way the article is written to begin with, but I don't have any suggestions for correction yet. Csbodine 23:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Klimov:
OK, let's try to mention Nirvana as in "compare with Nirvana".--Klimov 17:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Nirvana and Dzogchen
The new page Nirvana and Dzogchen created based on the above text by Csbodine.
--Klimov 17:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Mental state vs state of realization
Reverted 'state of realization' by Csbodine back to 'mental state' because it seems that the term 'realization' does not designate anything meaningful for the reader and represents circular definition: X defined as Y where both are unknown.
--Klimov 18:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean by "mental state"? If it is a state of mind, it is wrong. The state of Dzogchen is beyond mind and concepts.
Klimov:
Agreed. Desirable seems a simple definition, that would be both theoreticaly and experientially correct and would be also non-circular (see Fallacies of definition).
The current one seems at least better than the one that defined dzogchen as simply teachings.--Klimov 20:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Klimov:
OK, folks, next try. Please critique 'special state' + the 'context' thing.--Klimov 20:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- It is hardly possible to define Dzogchen precisely. What we can try to do is to emphasize that Dzogchen means both one's own natural state (that can only be experienced directly but not expressed), and the Dzogchen teaching, i.e. the methods that can lead to this experience. I'd suggest to express it as 'the natural state of individuum' instead of 'special state', but I'd leave the decision to a qualified native speaker. -- Mokhin 21:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- I have four or five books on Dzogchen that I'm going to scan through and see if I can piece together some better, substantiated information. For instance, Tregchod and Thodgal aren't even mentioned in this article, nor is the Rainbow Body mentioned. I think this article, in general, is really lacking. Csbodine 09:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, though I think there is a lot of good material in the article that could stand some grooming and reorganization. As is often (I feel) the case, there is also a lack of high-level, more easily accessible introduction. A lot of what is written assumes (perhaps) a bit too much background on the part of the (non-specialist) reader -- but I think that can be remediated with a good introductory paragraph -- and yes that was the sound of me volunteering myself to write it :)