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Mediation Case

A request for formal mediation of the dispute concerning Genesis Creation Myth has been filed with the Mediation Committee (MedCom). You have been named as a party in this request. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Genesis Creation Myth and then indicate in the "Party agreement" section whether you would agree to participate in the mediation or not.

Mediation is a process where a group of editors in disagreement over matters of article content are guided through discussing the issues of the dispute (and towards developing a resolution) by an uninvolved editor experienced with handling disputes (the mediator). The process is voluntary and is designed for parties who disagree in good faith and who share a common desire to resolve their differences. Further information on the MedCom is at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Committee; the policy the Committee will work by whilst handling your dispute is at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Committee/Policy; further information on Misplaced Pages's policy on resolving disagreements is at Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes.

If you would be willing to participate in the mediation of this dispute but wish for its scope to be adjusted then you may propose on the case talk page amendments or additions to the list of issues to be mediated. Any queries or concerns that you have may be directed to an active mediator of the Committee or by e-mailing the MedCom's private mailing list (click here for details).

Please indicate on the case page your agreement to participate in the mediation within seven days of the request's submission.

Thank you, Weaponbb7 (talk)

Wilhelm von Gottberg

Thank you very much for your help.Xx236 (talk) 07:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC

BLP policy

I think you misconstrue the BLP policy. It applies to BLPs or "information about living persons" in other articles . The material deleted in Criticism of Misplaced Pages was not "about" the people as individuals -- it was simply about what they are saying. Please restore the information. Thanks. --S. Rich (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

"... have argued that Misplaced Pages articles related to this topic are biased and controlled by a small group of participants including Connolley who do not edit in a neutral manner or may have a conflict of interest. Connolley and this small group have since been banned from editing Misplaced Pages pages dealing with climate change after another arbitration process was completed." This is a negative statement about a living person (William M. Connolley), it goes beyond the bare, verifiable facts, and it is sourced to opinion pieces. There is no reason to restore this and I will remove it again if someone else does so.

Incidentally, global warming is not the only area on which the article appears to be siding with fringe views. The paragraph about the Cyrus Cylinder has a similar problem, as I explained on the article talk page. But at least that's not a BLP problem. Hans Adler 19:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, well, I fail to see how the policy extends so far as to include what they do. But it is a minor point and I won't get wrapped around the axle on it. But with the policy in mind, how about taking a look at Bradley Manning? It has opinion piece stuff from Salon.com that is pretty contentious. Admin SlimVirgin has done a lot of great work on it, but another set of experienced eyes would be nice. Thanks so very much. --S. Rich (talk) 00:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

OK, I have watchlisted that page. But I can't promise anything since I haven't followed the news very closely. Hans Adler 10:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Apologies

Did not realize. Please feel free to correct, the edit. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I did. No problem, just don't make a habit of it, please. Hans Adler 23:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

1894 Homeopathy article in Journal of the American Medical Association

Is this the book you were asking Brangifer for on homeopathy talk page? “Modern Homeopathy And Medical Science” in the Journal of the American Medical Association, March 17, 1894. It does not appear in the homeopathy citation section.HkFnsNGA (talk) 13:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Definitely not. I haven't looked at that book, but it is probably totally out of date and is likely to have an outdated POV that makes it only useful for very specific facts and possibly for quote-mining. I meant Whorton, Nature Cures: The History of Alternative Medicine in America, Oxford University Press 2002. Hans Adler 13:57, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Now I see I misremembered what Whorton says. I am still sure I read an account of homeopathy and hygiene that had a lot of details, but I don't remember where. Hans Adler 14:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Steve Quinn and the math journals list

I saw your post on Steve's talk page, but after reading your latest comment on the math journals list page, I start wondering about your concept of the word "condescending". I have not re-reverted Carl's edits, I'm not edit-warring, I'm discussing. What's your problem, that I have not let myself be convinced? As far as I know, that's not a requirement of BRD. I have no problem reverting my position if faced with good arguments, but so far I am not convinced. I have remained civil throughout this whole discussion and I expect the same from other participants. Can we now stop using words like "condescending" and continue concentrating on the issue at hand, please? --Crusio (talk) 19:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

First, there's a distinct difference between your behaviour and Steve Quinn's, the latter being outright bizarre and yours within the reasonable range but, in my eyes, not constructive. My comment on Steve Quinn's talk page came with a diff which, I think, clearly proves the point ("Yes, you are correct . Also, I am glad that have been assisting you - these are both very good editors to learn from. So, yes, you are getting the hang of it. I'll be glad to give feedback as I go along - but it seems that you are creating acceptable stubs right now. And I guess that is your goal at the moment, and I don't have a problem with that. If you see something pertaining to my editing that you like feel free to ask about it, or just imitate it." This guy is so full of self-importance that it would be funny if we were not under an obligation to cooperate with him. In some workplaces such people are sacked in order to preserve a reasonable working atmosphere and prevent the productive staff from getting too annoyed. (More to the point: Most people who behave like that would never be employed in the first place because they are way too young.)

In retrospect, it seems likely that Steve Quinn's abrasive behaviour tainted the way I perceived yours, so I apologise for overreacting. I perceived that you were not being constructive. E.g. I can see nothing in WP:EL or WP:LINKFARM that would be relevant to the discussion, yet you seem to be pretending, vaguelt pointing in that direction, that these documents support your position. (Once you ignore the bad formatting of the references, there is nothing in WP:LINKFARM that would prohibit the list in the state in which you found it, at least not under an interpretation that is reasonable in the sense that it does not rule out a huge number of lists that exist by general consensus.) Your hyperbole "that's no reason to let this thing sit around for months" and "that is not a situation that we should tolerate indefinitely" seems to confirm this, but of course it may just be a symptom of your irritation at my irritation.

Meanwhile, that list is not in an ideal state, but it in no way requires immediate action. It is not misleading or incorrect, it contains no spam, no unsourced potentially contentious statements, etc. It is still more or less in the state in which it was started in 2006, except that R. J. Mathar extended it in August 2010, approximately doubling it in size. Given the number of page views (0-2 per day before we started to discuss there) , any sense of urgency and pressuring to do things quickly is completely out of place. I am under an impression that CBM is going to need less than a month, but even a year would be absolutely acceptable for such a low-profile page. Hans Adler 20:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

• • I guess I also got irritated, after spending a tedious hour cleaning up the list and then being summarily reverted... --Crusio (talk) 04:53, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism

Deleting a whole section because it's not inline with you POV is considered vandalism. Please refrain from such further activities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steveg79 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it is not considered vandalism. It's also not what happened, as you should know since you must have seen the rationale in my edit summary. However, what is definitely not allowed is accusing others of vandalism in edit summaries or with bogus talk page warnings when they have not vandalised. This is particularly true when someone merely fixed a problem in an article. Hans Adler 12:15, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

• I have looked a bit at the history of that article and strongly suspect that there is some sockpuppetry going on here. Just a moment ago another SPA popped up, whose single edit strongly suggests that he's not new to WP. --Crusio (talk) 13:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
  • I know. See WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Steveg79. Hans Adler 13:38, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
    • FYI the Russian location is obvious if you see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Alexandre8/Archive, where Alexandre8's own sockpuppetry is dealt with. Funnily enough he tried the "I forgot to log in" excuse despite the IP edits coming after logged-in edits..... 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Question regarding assistance

Could you or some other neutral German editor you know translate parts of German version of article Animal welfare in Nazi Germany? Right now the english version seems to be very one-sided while the German version does mention antisemitic and racist aspects of the policy as well as propaganda use by the Nazis.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure I have enough time to do that. It's not done with just translating what the German Misplaced Pages says. They have a radically different sourcing style, in which minor sources that are not recommended for further reading are usually just mentioned in the edit summary of the edit that introduces the fact in question. As a result, some unsourced claims simply stay in an article because they are plausible to a German-speaking audience and nobody realises there never was a source. In other words: In the German Misplaced Pages "original research" still has its original meaning as just disallowing idiosyncratic fringe theories, rather than the English Misplaced Pages's interpretation that makes editorial work extremely hard.

I also don't know any other German-speaking editor who I think might be interested in doing this. But I have watchlisted the article and may get involved there. Hans Adler 13:51, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Fundamentalist interpretations of V again

Hans, I was just reading through The meaning of "verifiability, not truth", and "Threshold" again and all the other discussions on the topic. The reason this interests me, is because we've got an issue over at Talk:The_Circus_(film). Since October 2010, Jack Sebastian (talk · contribs) has been misinterpreting the policy (not entirely his fault due to the poor wording), claiming that the sole criterion for inclusion is "verifiability, not truth". When called on this, he claims that "Verifiability, not truth is the litmus for inclusion. That's Misplaced Pages's rule, not mine." Can you tell me how to deal with these erroneous, literal interpretations of V, and why this has not yet been fixed after all the concerns that have been raised? Jack believes that V enables him to add any piece of trivia, no matter how irrelevant, to any article, merely because it can be verified in a reliable source. Viriditas (talk) 10:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

No, I haven't found a good way of dealing with this nonsense yet. A tiny minority (including at least one high-profile admin) actually believes it. Some pay lip service to it without really believing it, as their actions show whenever they are confronted with a real case. And some don't believe it but refuse to accept that there are others who believe that nonsense, or that it is a problem. Together these editors have so far blocked any clarifications to the principle.

The real problem is of course more general. Misplaced Pages editors are getting increasingly formalist, relying on the technical meaning of the words rather than the obvious intent behind them. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that policies and guidelines have a natural tendency to only cover the contentious cases, to become more and more extreme over time, and to be applied to uncontentious cases by formalist editors or POINT violators.

I often find it hard to stay cool when faced with formalists. I see you have the same problem. Going out for a walk might help... I guess we will have to wait for formalism to become so rampant that a large part of the community realises how dangerous it is. Hans Adler 10:57, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Many such misinterpretations come about from people forgetting that the Misplaced Pages project is a project to build an online encyclopedia. There are many other kinds of online writing that may have a fitting home on some other site, but Misplaced Pages isn't set up for what doesn't belong in an encyclopedia (although currently Misplaced Pages is poorly configured to screen out unencyclopedic content). -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

If I may add my voice to this conversation, I'd point out that I don't consider myself a formalist, per se. I think of the polices and guidelines we have currently mapped out comes from the shared consensus of the members themselves; its the mean average of some wanting one extreme and others wanting another, and most desiring something more moderate. This does (and to a necessary extent, must) change over time, and comes from discussions such as those currently occurring in the article Viriditas mentioned, and hundreds of others. Considering these opinions dangerous seems elitist and dangerous in and of itself. After all, the policies and guidelines were created out of one person seeking to change something they thought was wrong, and an eventual consensus growing from that conviction.

The dangerous trend I see growing in Misplaced Pages is the increasing tendency for editors to couch their personal preferences in inclusive or exclusionary tendencies. Couching the feeling of 'I don't like it' or 'NimE' ('Not in my Encyclopedia') in terms like "triviality" or "undue weigh"t (and these have been used in the argument for The Circus) hurt the encyclopedia. In an encyclopedia "that anyone can edit", pop culture is going to make it in the article (ex. tiberium, Star Wars Kid, Deanna Troi). There is room for everything, so long as it reliably cited, neutrally-treated and eminently verifiable, it should be included. There is no room in Misplaced Pages for snootiness. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:47, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Jack, that was kind of a snooty thing to say.

Just as an observation, I usually handle this issue by pointing out that verifiability is an exclusionary policy, not an inclusionary. We remove things from the encyclopedia when they fail V, but we don't add them to the encyclopedia just because pass V. --Ludwigs2 05:04, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

A thought for your consideration

Hans,

Littleolive oil (talk · contribs) just recently got a 3 month topic ban from an article for what struck me as specious reasons - standard skeptic baiting routine, it looked like. In my few interactions with her she always struck me as a basically reasonable, moderate editor, and I'm kind of tired of watching these power plays succeed, so I came up with a half baked idea that I thought I'd run by you (as another basically reasonable, moderate editor) to see how baked it really is. what would you think about starting up a project - call it the League of Moderate Editors - specifically designed so that middle-of-the-road moderate editors could band together against groups of agenda-driven editors (skeptics, fringe advocates, religious zealots, political partisans, whatever) rather than letting them take each of us on one-by-one as the case is now. People could sign onto it like a project; we could give it a noticeboard where editors ask for advice or help with particular pages; we could act en masse to defend each other from some of the more skanky political maneuvers.

Yes, I'm suggesting that we create an open-air, above board cabal. but I really am sick of this crap. --Ludwigs2 05:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)