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User talk:Arthur Rubin

Don't template the regulars. Woogee (talk) 22:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

You're going to tell that to Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs) too, right? Nev1 (talk) 22:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. Thanks, Nev1. Don't try to win arguments by templating talk pages. Childish this is. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:57, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Resp.

Inertia

Hello Gun,long time no see.I´m glad for the outcome of Jagged´s affair,but we still have a lot to do,cleaning up wikipedia.I was wondering if you could help me with the Inertia article.Islamic theories looks unbelievable.Regards.--Knight1993 (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for clearing up the attempts to establish a nationalistic POV by the Chinese Teeninvenstor!

Request for mediation

Given the impasse at Spherical Earth, I request this matter enter into mediation. However, before we impose on others, it is important to establish whether the process is likely to succeed.

• Are you willing to go into mediation?
• Are you willing to be responsive during mediation so that it can progress?
• Is there a good chance you will accept the recommendations of mediation?

Thank you for your attention in this matter. Strebe (talk) 17:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Yes to all three questions. Let me point out that this is nothing personal at all; we just have a disagreement as to how interpret the relevant guideline. As long as there will be enough user input from third parties as to establish beyond reasonable doubt a consensus (and, hopefully, reword the relevant guidelines in the process to make them more explicit), I will consider the matter settled. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

July 2009 Ürümqi riots is at FAC

Hi, Gun Powder Ma. You commented at a previous FAC for this article, so I just wanted to let you know that it is at FAC again (here) if you are interested in commenting again. Thanks, rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hatran iwans

Hi Gun. I have responded at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Parthian Empire/archive1 and will probably head back to the library today to read the two sources I have mentioned (Downey's book in particular). I need to go back to the library anyway to use an excellent source which explains Trajan's possible motivations for invading Mesopotamia (other than the casus belli of the Armenian enthronement). Cheers.--Pericles of Athens 17:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

WQA

I'm posting here because User:Teeninvestor has opened a Wikiquette Alert about some of your remarks, at and elsewhere. I'm aware that there is a slow-burning content dispute behind this inter-personal issue, which has been providing both fuel and smoke (if you will allow the metaphor), and I do not want to get involved in making any judgments on that score - that's not what admins are for. Instead, I'm asking you to please avoid making any personal remarks about Teeninvestor in future.

Feel free to review our guidelines for a refresher on what constitutes a personal attack. In a nutshell, please continue to be passionate about writing articles - but not when discussing other editors. Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL 13:36, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

History of Education

Hello Gun! I hope you´re fine. Now, I´m going straight to the point. I was reading the history of education article, and I noticed the islamic world section has the same problem you have been fighting in the University and Madrasah articles. Given that you did such a great work, I was wondering if you could balance this article too. PS: Jagged has not appeared anymore. He had agreed to revert his bad quality workin the RfC, but he has done nothing since then. Do you think he has quit?--Knight1993 (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

What is your evidence/reason to claim that the ancient Nanjing imperial school is a mythology? Do you know that Chinese history today still preserved have reliablely recorded for at least 3000 years? Please find the records on education in ancient China in Twenty-Four Histories. -Peducte (talk) 13:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)?

The burden of evidence rests on your shoulders, I am afraid. Your claim is extraordinarily strong and very hard to prove. You need to show with reliable scholarly sources that

• this institution founded in the 3rd century AD was indeed a centre of higher learning
• this institution remained in service for the next 1700 years

And even then, if you can prove these points, which you will most certainly fall far short of (I know a thing or two about Chinese history), you will still find that your claim is not shared by the vast majority of scholars who hold that the university originated in medieval Europe. And, to be honest, since this just reflects a basic historical fact, you can put to rest all hopes that a consensus to the contrary will ever emerge. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

The institutions of higher learning in ancient China, from the Taixue to the Guozijian, were not universities in the modern sense (and quite different from their Medieval European counterparts). The chief purpose of higher education in ancient China was to groom students—usually well-to-do members of the gentry class—for government service via a pragmatic civil-servant's education combined with Confucian indoctrination. The end result of this was for one to become a scholar-bureaucrat; if not, one could become a teacher or writer, but these were secondary goals. There was very little if any academic freedom in the government-run schools, which accepted students and taught curricula based on the incumbent emperor's views and policies. The higher-education facility in ancient China which comes the closest to a university is perhaps the privately-run academy, particularly those which developed in the Southern Song Dynasty as a grassroots gentry movement aimed at reforming society from the bottom up. They were not monitored or controlled by the government, yet the main goal of these private academies was still to prepare students for the civil service examinations.--Pericles of Athens 15:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your insights. It should be stressed that - given that it is already difficult enough to prove the unbroken continuity of the medieval European universities - this task seems outright impossible for that 3rd century Chinese bureaucratic school. Frankly, I don't believe that Chinese sources will yield more than a few words for much of the alleged time period of its existence, but the burden of proof anyway rests on Peducte. For how a continuously-operating institution really looks like, look up cathedral school, madrasa and medieval university which are in that order the most ancient institutions of higher learning still existing anywhere in the world. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

As to Nanjing University, please see Talk:Nanjing University -Peducte (talk) 18:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I revised the article Nanjing University and List of oldest universities in continuous operation. If you think it's not proper, plese tell and discuss it. -Peducte (talk) 14:44, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. However, I believe that all arguments have been exchanged, and you might have noticed that it was not only me who has been reverting your 258 AD claim. Perhaps you would like to ask for a Misplaced Pages:Third opinion. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Nanjing University. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If the edit warring continues, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Plese see explanation on my talk page. -Peducte (talk) 14:27, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello! I think query, debating and communication will help to ensure validity and proper way of description of contents, and finally improve article. Thank you for your participation! Let's continue to debate and communicate if needed. If we simply have different opinions, let's respect each other, and discuss in a friendly and constructive way. - Peducte (talk) 18:25, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

A new project: Marian reforms?

Hi Gun. I'm glad that you enjoyed reading my latest project on the Parthian Empire, which recently passed the FA nomination. While researching the subject, I naturally became very interested in the evolution of Rome's military from the late Republic onwards. I'm thinking about pursuing a new topic here at Wiki: the Marian reforms.

The article is ranked in the "start" class on its talk page, which seems very reasonable at present. I was wondering: in terms of a rewrite, would you agree that this article should be given priority over many others on Roman history? This subject just seems so incredibly important in regards to the military and society of ancient Rome, yet the article is quite undeveloped.

Or would you say another topic is more deserving? Given that it also has a start article which needs serious attention. In any case, I'd love to collaborate with you, since I believe you have access to both JSTOR and Project MUSE. Correct?--Pericles of Athens 05:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Congrats on PE. You are right, within the context of the late Republican Roman military the Marian reforms constitute most important change and there is more than a grain of truth in it that the reorganization of the army gave rise to military leaders which soon came to threaten the existence of the Republican order and ultimately toppled it. Mommsen would say that the concentration of military and political power first in a few hands (Marius, Sulla, Pompeius etc.), and then by the Principate in one hand, was the historical logical response to the challenge of space which came along with the rapid Roman expansion after the Hannibal Wars. So, yes, the interdependency of military reform, personal ambitions and the political order make it an interesting and challenging topic. You can contact me via email any time for literature, for special questions you can take also a look RAT here. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi Gun. I regret to announce that I am no longer pursuing this topic. A trip to my university library yesterday was very disappointing and unfruitful; there was not one piece of literature focusing solely on the reforms, and the sources on Roman military history which described the Marian reforms were truly lacking. I was able to find only one book published by a university press which seemed promising, but it has been checked out by someone else UNTIL AUGUST! I'm not going to wait around for it. I might pursue another worthy topic, like Roman historiography, which surprisingly is given greater attention than Greek historiography here at English Wiki. On a final note, have you been watching the USA-Slovenian game? Pretty exciting! Although us Yanks don't care much for football...err...soccer, since we are infatuated with American football instead. Cheers.--Pericles of Athens 16:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear that. I'd have recommended Adrian's Goldworthy: The Roman Army at War, 100 BC to 200 AD, but even that is no monograph on the Marian reforms. I am sure you will find another topic soon, as there is no dearth on Roman subjects in need of expert attention. PS: the goals were pretty spectacular, too! Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing these sources! However, without a substantial amount of ready material available at my library, I do not feel confident in tackling such a complex subject. On the other hand, you are right that there is no dearth on Roman subjects; I will find another deserving topic. Perhaps Roman Greece? I've always found the relationship between Rome and her semi-independent Greek city-states to be a fascinating topic.--Pericles of Athens 21:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Stone of the Pregnant Woman

On June 12, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Stone of the Pregnant Woman, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 06:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

May be a little late but regarding madrasas etc.

Rifa'a el-Tahtawi was amazed when he visited France for the first time to find out that in France, "scientist" referred to someone who actually engaged in science, and that "knowledge" referred to any knowledge, while a "scientist," ('alim," or "ulama") in his own country was strictly a religious scholar, and the only kind of "science" or "knowledge" recognized to exist was the study and knowledge of religion. I have more extensive quotes lying around somewhere that I can dig up if needed, but the battle to have anything but religion included in the idea of "science" or "knowledge" was won by the religious during the Middle Ages, and this kind of obviates any comparison of the madrasa to the university, making it really comparable only to a seminary. You might be able to clean out the whole thing.Jayzames (talk) 00:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

For medieval Islam, a more appropriate analogue would be a cathedral or monastic school. In the West, however, these predominantly religious institutions also included some study of the liberal arts within their curricula.

I don't know if anyone has done a comparative study of the curricula of religious schools in the Islamic, Jewish, and Eastern and Western Christian traditions. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 17:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Jagged 85 sock puppet case

It's now up. You should probably edit the signature to your comment so that it post-dates the initiation of the case. Given the changes I have made to the statement of the case you might also want to edit your comment as well.
David Wilson (talk · cont) 20:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Peducte

Thanks for your comments here on Peducte (talk · contribs) - I remain neutral and just try to facilitate and advise; I just wanted to thank you for presenting the prior findings in a compact, rational, factual and calm manner. Chzz  ►  16:28, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Roman economy

Just noticed that you've begun an article on the Roman economy. I've been working on an article on the Economy of the early Roman Empire in my userspace for some weeks now. I don't imagine you're aware of this, but overlapping efforts are somewhat wasteful. Can't think of any convenient means of integrating the whole at present, but I thought I should inform you. It seems we were both inspired by the weird phenomenon of GDP estimates for the empire ... G.W. (Talk) 10:43, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I have replied to your email. G.W. (Talk) 02:09, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Iron

Are you sure that your latest amendment is correct? Are you really asserting that the Romans intentionally produced cast iron? If this is right, it is an astounding claim. I have not seen the book, so that I am not in a position to assess the validity of the claims. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

The figures and sources regarding Roman metallurgy (especially the 80k tons per year) are debatable. Intranetusa (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit war

First of all, I'd like to see some more credible sources on Roman iron production rather than those with exaggerated data from the 1970s-1980s. Intranetusa (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

On what basis? Just because you say so? Don't make a fool of yourself. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:16, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Your sources that quote 30 year old outdated information directly contradicts other wiki articles on the Wealden industry and more contemporary information. Old, outdated, exaggerated information = not acceptable. Intranetusa (talk) 23:52, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

talk back

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Gun_Powder_Ma_repeated_NPA]. Thank you. Toddst1 (talk) 21:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi, friend

I'm reopening an old can of worms. Your input is welcomed... Talk:IBM_and_the_Holocaust Carrite (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Romano-Chinese relations GAR

If you're looking for a community review of Romano-Chinese relations, you need to follow the instructions at WP:GAR:

1. Add {{subst:GAR}} to the top of the article talk page and save the page. Follow the second bold link in the template to create a community reassessment page (this is a subpage of the good article reassessment page).
2. Append your reason for bringing the article to good article reassessment, sign it, and save the page. The article should automatically appear on this page within an hour.
3. Please notify the most recent GA reviewer.

I think the reason there's been no input so far is you didn't use the GAR template. Nev1 (talk) 16:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Hm, there is such a page: Talk:Romano-Chinese relations/GA1. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:04, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I think (not started a GAR myself) that it should be at Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/Romano-Chinese relations/1, for example the GAR for Winston Churchill was at Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/Winston Churchill/1. Nev1 (talk) 16:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't know. It is my first GAR, either! I have notified the top contributors which hopefully will help me out there. Thanks for your care. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

List of newspapers by establishment date

1) Pleaes do not question my neutrality, when I make an honest change conform general consensus within Misplaced Pages.

2) I do not waste peoples time. If I see something wrong, I change it and give good arguments.

3) History in Europe in that period is far from straightforward. One sentence from one article does not rule out every other option, as you obviously think it does. The Dutch Republic gained its indepence first and foremost from the Spanish Empire. Amsterdam in 1618 is by general consensus not referred to as part of the Holy Roman Empire, but as the Dutch Republic.

If you think the country column will generate the wrong message, improve the article with extra information.Joost 99 (talk) 13:49, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Chinese armies (pre-1911)

Please do not post the same question to multiple forums, as you have done so here: ,,,. Doing so may be considered Forum shopping or Canvassing, and is considered disruptive. LK (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Didn't know that. "Forum shopping"...funny term...actually never've liked online shopping! :-D Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

RfC

I have added a Outside view by Tenmei at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Teeninvestor. I would very much appreciate your impression, especially

(a) if you can suggest a way to improve the clarity of the writing and/or

(b) if you construe any part of the diff as insufficiently moderate and forward-looking.

As you will guess, I invested quite a bit of time in drafting this; and I want to encourage you to contact me by e-mail with any constructive comments and criticism. --Tenmei (talk) 19:31, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Restatement. Please join me in encouraging Nev1 to move what he wrote at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Teeninvestor#Criticism interpreted as attack. My guess is that Nev1's insights are likely to be undervalued as part of a talk page thread.

Nev1's step-by-step approach helped me to clarify my understanding of the nested problem set. The sentences are demonstrably constructive, helpful, and plain. The paragraphs illustrate effective writing. I would like to see this section's text re-positioned on the main page at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Teeninvestor#Statement of the dispute/View by certifier Nev1. This will give you and others the opportunity to join me in endorsing the problem-solving approach and conclusions.

Significantly, you will want to read the response drafted by Teeninvestor. The reaction shows that Teeninvestor also construes these words as a constructive investment of time and thought. Hopefully, the structure of this diff can be the catalyst for a few more steps in a productive process.

I wonder if Nev1's reasoning needs to be highlighted as a kind of template for use in other difficult contexts? --Tenmei (talk) 16:51, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Regarding your edit here, please consider reviewing what I wrote at User talk:Athenean#The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. --Tenmei (talk) 19:39, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of List of newspapers by establishment date

I have nominated List of newspapers by establishment date, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of newspapers by establishment date (2nd nomination). Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Yougo1000 (talk) 20:53, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. Please let me point out that this is only the 1st nomination, you somehow duplicated the page. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Olive branch Petition

I don't know how it started, but it seems that the relations between me and you have not been exactly cordial since our first encounters. I suspect it has something to do with Comparison between Roman and Han Empires, which you were partially correct about. It is also connected with our very different views on the level of Chinese development. Nevertheless, it is my belief (and I hope you will agree) that editing work is a much better way to spend our time then bickering, incessant opposition, edit warring, and reverting; with the way wikipedia works, and considering that both of our viewpoints have their backing in academia (though one have a majority in some cases), I believe the best way to resolve our current disputes is peaceful coexistence; instead of trying to override each other, we should work towards letting both views be expressed.

I have worked with editors with diametrically opposed views before; for example, with a socialist on the Chinese economy and also on Johnson South Reef Skirmish. In these articles, both views were represented, with each editor editing one section, allowing peace to reign. There's no reason a similar process can't be at work in the current articles that the dispute is going on. For example, on Great Divergence I had previously asked you to add sources that rival Pomeranz's claims in the possible factors section, a request that was seemingly ignored 1. I believe that some of your information can be of benefit in several articles I am editing; for example, reducing Great Divergence's current overreliance on Pomeranz by buttressing some of his opponents' arguments, adding how western military technology influenced Chinese gunpowder weapons during the Ming and Ch'ing eras, etc. Therefore, I think it's best if you can systematically review the three articles you are currently disputing, and add sourced info in cases where they are applicable and where both views are roughly equal in academia.

I have several other suggestions about our possible collaboration, if you take up this petition. Toning down of language, to exclude terms such as POV-pushing, edit warring, etc, can help make the editing atomsphere more cordial. Review of each other's sources can also be helpful; dubious sources such as the silver wages paper should be used at best limitingly, and it is best if you also have access to the sources I'm using, and vice versa. Much of Pomeranz's and Temple's work, along with the cambridge history of China is online; I hope your sources are similarly accessible.

Now, I don't believe that this petition can solve all our disputes. But I do hope that it can mark the beginning of a more cordial collaboration than which exists now. Rome was not built in a day, and acrimony does not dissipate that fast either. However, I hope that by collaborating, we can resolve our disputes and get the articles under dispute to the GA or FA status that they deserve.

Regards,Teeninvestor (talk) 17:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

It's the first time I have heard about an olive branch petition and I am impressed by how much you go out of your way to resolve the dispute. As you may have noticed I have entirely kept to the conditions of our WQA agreement and I have done so (still do) out of conviction that one needs to move on and not dwell on things of the past. Both of us, we are probably more of the emotional type who wear our hearts on the keyboard so to say, so here we are. In my experience, I've always found that there are not two opinions quite alike on this board, or RL for that matter, so respect for differing views is always an important thing. Personally, I consider our personal issues of the past now resolved with both our statements, and I am willing to reset our relationship in this respect to a new beginning.

However, the tone of our language etc. aside, I still feel that there is an ongoing disagreement about your adherence to WP guidelines such as laid out by user Nev1 in the RFC/U, particularly with regard to the selection and interpretation of references, and WP:Own. Nonetheless, I hope we can tackle these questions in a more constructive atmosphere in future, so that both of us can take away something positive from our rapprochement. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I am encouraged by this positive response. What I hope can come from this is our collaboration on Great Divergence, Economic history of China (pre-1911), and other articles. I have replied on the latter article; it seems there has been a misunderstanding of Wagner's source by both of us; the 114,000 tons is the metric figure and 125,000 tons the English figure! Another estimate that has seemingly been misunderstood is the 0.1 tons per capita figure for the Han, which referred only to the government iron monopoly's figures (the true figures are much higher, considering illegal production). I have added Wagner's source on both of the relevant eras regarding Han and Song iron production. Regards. Oh ya, and on the Great Divergence article, I hope you can help boost the "effects" section by adding GDP per capita statistics, European industrial growth, etc, as well as boosting some of the alternate factors in the causes section.Teeninvestor (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Next time you blame me out of the blue for "Hypocrisy", you can consider our successful settlement of personal differences null and void. And then you'll know at least how and who it started for the second time... Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I am surprised that you would be so angry at an offhand remark in an edit summary, as I wasn't even aware it was you editing there in the first place. In any case, I have a second proposal. We renew this petition, and we'll try our best to respect it. If you feel that I'm violating it, contact me on my talk page, and vice versa.Teeninvestor (talk) 21:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing

This edit by Gun Powder Ma here at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Teeninvestor caused me to draft this explanation. The edit was quickly undone by Gun Powder Ma here; but it may be productive to seize this trivial edit as an opportunity to underscore what I mean in using this curious phrase.

I discovered these words on the userpage of Kraftlos; and I was surprised that it made sense to me. Conventionally, this form of word play escapes my grasp. I don't know whether Kraftlos is the originator or whether it is copied from an unattributed source.

My guess is that this is a peculiarly American formulation which parodies the words of Yogi Berra? Berra is well known for his pithy comments and witticisms which are called "Yogiisms." Yogiisms very often take the form of either an apparently obvious tautology, or a paradoxical contradiction.

Teeninvestor has explained that he is an American, the son of emigrants who came to the United States when he was six years old. Arguably, Teeninvestor will find value in this semi-Yogiism. Perhaps the point will be immediately accessible in ways that a carefully-composed, logical exposition fails to achieve? Who can say? In this RfC context, I interpret the phrase to mean that

In other words, it is important to avert a possibility that the RfC may become side-tracked or distracted by tangential issues. I hoped that this phrase would resonate in some way for Teeninvestor. More broadly, I hoped that it would contribute to prospects of a constructive outcome.

Does this help explain what I meant and what I intended? If not, please allow me to try to explain again using different words.

Do you think this phrase helps to focus attention, or is it counterproductive?

Does this phrase help or hinder the "desired outcome"? --Tenmei (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment on Turkish invasion of Cyprus

Hi

I do not know if you are aware that comparing the Turkish invasion of Cyprus to the German invasion of Poland may have been more destructive than constructive ?

The Turkish intervention was allowed in clause IV of the treaty of guarantee . I do not think that this is the same as the situation between Germany and Poland ??

I am only bringing this to your attention as you may not have been aware of these points and the possibilty that, had more people seen the comment, the problems this might have caused due to the edit warring and generally explosive nature of this and Cypriot-Greek-Turkish problems in general. This was highlighted by the 2 notices at the top of the page ({{controversial}} and {{Round In Circles}}) that you may have missed :¬)

Thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 17:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Two things

First: I've responded to you at Talk:Military history of China (pre-1911). Second......I've decided to pursue Marian reforms! My library has a better selection than I previously judged. Plus a Cambridge University Press source, which was checked out for the longest time, has at last been returned to the library. Expect to see Marian reforms on the featured article candidate page by late August, I'm hoping (fingers crossed). If you have any online PDF articles which could be useful, be generous and share links! Regards.--Pericles of Athens 01:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Gun. Do you think it would be worthwhile to briefly summarize what is found in Weller's webpage about Roman harness systems in the "horse harness" entry of List of Chinese inventions? Particularly about Noëttes' (outdated) hypothesis about the throat-and-girth harness.--Pericles of Athens 18:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Forum shopping

Please do not forum shop as you did here, here, here and here. Forum shopping is against wikipedia policy, as shown here 1.Teeninvestor (talk) 23:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

None of the these posts comply to the definition of forum shopping. The only theoretically possible case (here) was a general inquiry, which only you then turned into an explicit discussion of your fringe ref. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Raising the same issue at 4 different forums can be considered explicit forum shopping, not to mention edit warring against the consensus that Temple is an RS.Teeninvestor (talk) 12:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Ping

I sent you an e-mail. --Tenmei (talk) 01:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:WQA

You have been reported to Wikiquette for your persistent incivility to me and other editors.Teeninvestor (talk) 14:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic more of the same]]. Thank you. Toddst1 (talk) 14:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Request

Teeninvestor (talk · contribs) is now subject to a voluntary interaction ban with you. That means s/he can't edit any articles that you have edited within a month of your editing. S/he also cannot talk to or about you. Given this, please show good faith and do not follow Teeninvestor. If this becomes a problem, her/his restriction may be lifted and other (perhaps bilateral) restrictions may be put in place. Unilateral interaction bans only work if both parties want it to. Toddst1 (talk) 15:33, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I won't edit any other articles in the given time in which Teeninvestor has participated other than those which I have already edited before the voluntary interaction ban. I hope this is ok and conforms to WP practice in such cases. In other words, I won't follow him. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:46, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Toddst1 (talk) 19:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Could you please give some clarification on this interaction ban? Because Teeninvestor has been just editing several articles on economic history which have been central to our contents dispute and which I have been recently editing, too (including comprehensive edits on talk page):

• Economic history of China (pre-1911)
• Chinese economic reform
• Great Divergence

In my understanding, the user is not supposed to edit these articles in the agreed time span. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:30, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct. Toddst1 (talk) 14:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, read Dougweller's proposal more carefully. You're not being prevented from doing anything; certainly not from editing. Please take a deep breath, leave it a while, and reconsider. Haploidavey (talk) 19:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Dougweller's proposal won't work, specifically from my experience with TI this will be impossible: This restriction by itself does not prohibit mutual participation on articles, as long as the editors stay away from each other. I have anyway no intention of interacting with TI longer than absolutely necessary, and most certainly I consider all ANI action as a waste of time which I hate. But since he is a very active user (with a lot of time on his hands), the interaction ban would effectively mean that I am excluded for many articles on military, economic and technological history. This is unfair given that the RFC/U which was not even started by me has identified him to be the problematic user. I am also disappointed by you that you see it this way, too, although you have seen that my stance on the Roman total output was absolutely in order, while TI merely has construed something from thin air. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry you're disappointed; I wish you weren't. The previous proposal was seems to have been impracticable. This one isn't. Look, you do good work here. I'm acknowledging that. Aerated constructions have no value, and are easily dissipated. Sheesh... I'm no more comfortable with diplomacy that Cynwolfe (she admitted as much on the Roman metallurgy talk-page); but just as wikipedia needs capable and dispassionate editors, your editing needs dispassionate allies. You don't need a faction. Be patient, please. Haploidavey (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

On second thought, I do not want to come across as mortally offended, you are entitled to your opinion and I am glad about your firm analytic grasp of the iron figure dispute. As an aside, I wasn't aware Cynwolfe was a chica, I like bright girls immensely, maybe I should invite her any time soon. :-D ;-)) Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:24, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Please take my assurances I'm not trying to hinder your editing, You must know my opinion of Teeninvestor's editng and I've tried to make that clearer now. We do need some sort of solution though, and I'm sure you agree with that. Dougweller (talk) 07:01, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that and appreciate your efforts, but I am certain that it is outright impossible to work simultaneously, but strictly separately on an article and that sooner or later we would find ourselves, probably even through no fault of our own, in a confused and dangerous situation in which admin action could quickly destroy both our accounts. I am sorry I don't want to play pioneer and guinea pig for 'solutions' scheme which are totally unpractical and still far from established in Misplaced Pages. I hope you can understand my worries. I made an alternative proposal here and now on ANI, too. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 07:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

GPM, I'm delighted to have you confirm my impression that you are a real guy, a designation I intend as a compliment. I usually storm into these situations sword drawn, and am sorry I irritated you when I tried to take a more, oh, Machiavellian approach. To be more direct: I don't know what to do about the WP problem of those who edit out of ignorance (for instance, how come they were still using wooden farm tools and reiterating Han China had widespread use of iron farm tools and Rome did not) and clinging to a position (aka a POV) while refusing to remediate that ignorance. There's nothing wrong with not knowing something, but on WP you can insist on your right to edit an article anyway. In fact, I know of an editor haled into a civility tribunal in large part for suggesting that someone needed remedial education, which is nothing but a true statement if you care to read this dialogue (stay through the credits, when the aforementioned ignoram-, er, honorable soul reveals he didn't even know what we were talking about). You may not need a faction, but you're not alone in facing this problem.

Have you read the essay WP:CPUSH? If these editors want to argue on talk pages, they can be ignored; the danger is when they attract others at a similar level of subject-matter competence, and the mob rules through a claim of consensus (hence I'm not sure you don't need a faction — in an effort to bring in informed voices, however, you get accused of forum shopping). When they edit mainly or only through deletion and unjustified tags, you have a problem. Reverting the deletion of your sourced material gets you into 3RR trouble; it's a little like your younger sibling pestering you till you do something unfortunate, and then you're the one who gets told on. But here are my favorite tactics from these folks: when you present a great list of sources, you're accused of OR, as if the mere fact of researching a topic in depth is equivalent to foisting "original" research on WP. If you present a statement that you find simply generalizing, almost common knowledge, proof will be demanded; if you point out that you're summarizing a chapter, or whole volumes, or the work of multiple scholars, you will be accused of synthesis. I'm just saying, as ridiculous and unfair as it seems, you have to be aware that even justly expressed indignation can be used against you by CPUSHers. They will repeatedly "bring charges" against you for incivility and such, and then gleefully point to your repeat record as grounds for blocking you. The chilling effect of using WP:CIV as a club to beat opposing voices into submission was evident in the mealymouthed way I addressed your problem in the metallurgy article. As I said recently when I chose to take part in defending an editor I respect from this kind of crap, this is simply not good for WP. I respect Dougweller's efforts to find a way to deal with the situation, because I just don't see a way within the existing WP structure. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:04, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Bright indeed, and gutsy, and honest. GPM, I want to apologise for not offering your editing my unqualified support - all my wriggling around between WP:CIV and WP:AGF was utterly useless. Misplaced Pages's godawful politics, bloody hell. There's no point repeating anything here, so ditto to what Cynwolfe said. Haploidavey (talk) 23:23, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

No apologies needed, it would have taken you a day or two to wade through all the posts, and to miss out the latest episode of Two and a Half Men just for some dry diffs would be inexcusable. ;-) I fullheartedly agree with Ch...Cynwolfe ( :-p ) that it needs the strategic mind of one Hannibal, and twice his physical endurance, to cope with edit warriors who really can't let go. In my view, WP has not yet found the way to deal with these 'editors'; the current guidelines and procedures are immensely time-consuming and therefore systematically serve those people who have (too) much time on their hands: students, nerds and singles who flock WP anyway. And this is then when the social self-reproduction circle of Misplaced Pages begins. What we rather need are procedures which can also be handled by people with a job and a family. Then the general level of immaturity will, I hope, somewhat fall here, too, and we could bring on board many knowledgeable users who now still prefer to avoid WP for good reasons. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

So-called "main opponent"

This surprising comment at AN/I thread troubled me for the same reason it bothered you:

But you are his main opponent, your suggesting restrictions for him is clearly better avoided, also, teeninvestors restriction that was imposed by Todd has no value and should be removed and forgotten about. What you guys need to work on is getting on, you have what looks to me as a content dispute and you both seem to be intelligent just with opposite views, try to meet in the middle and add both sides to the articles. For the duration of the RFC simply avoid any further fall outs. Off2riorob (talk) 08:35, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

In the absence of any explict response, I planned to ask Off2riorob to help me understand the point-of-view which is on display.

I should not have been surprised by what I found at Talk user:Off2riob#Response. I suspect that it was probably pointless to try to learn what Off2riorob was thinking; but, if not for that optimistic impulse, I would not have encountered Teeninvestor's words.

Teeninvestor proffers a link to where he had "outlined the case" here. You can decide for yourself what Teeninvestor's words mean.

I feel compelled to re-visit my recent decision-making:

• When I urged you to accept the 1st so-called "olive branch" here, I was wrong.
• When I wanted to believe the contrite message here posted by Patar knight, I was wrong.
• When I hoped the 2nd "olive branch" was genuine here, I was wrong.

We all learn from experience; and sometimes, I am very slow. This RfC has provided a number of teachable moments for me. Regardless of whatever Off2riorob chooses to believe or assert, you are not Teeninvestor opponent, nor am I

Even after Teeninvestor ceases to be an active thorny problem, we still need have to figure out how to deal with those whose indifference becomes support for Teeninvestor's toxic strategy and tactics. --Tenmei (talk)

I like the taste of olives, but I too don't see the point of exchanging withered branches if there is not a basis in one's actions. On ANI, there are a lot of good comments which show that even in such protracted confusing conflicts uninvolved editors can quickly gauge where the main trouble comes from. In this light, I could particularly identify with this observation:

To the contrary, it seems that Gun Powder Ma has spent a lot of their spare time to prevent damage to the project. A simplifying "it takes two to tango"-approach is likely to cause harm in the long run - we need editors who dispute problematic edits, and not let those wo introduce them have their way as everyone shys away in fear of sanctions just for that. If someone is disputing problematic edits and/or challenges problematic behavior, it is not the dispute (symptom) that needs to be remedied, but the problematic edits/behavior (cause).

I have to say to this view I subscribe, too. Regards. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

RfC Teeninvestor

Please comment on what I have posted here. --Tenmei (talk) 20:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Chinese economic reform GA Review

Hi, this article was nominated for GA and I volunteered to review it before noticing the wars/edits etc. Without mentioning any other editors, can you tell me what the current version of the article is lacking or if its biased (in your view) and if so, how? I didnt start checking references yet, I just want to know if there is a chance for some kind of a compromise here, since as on now, the article is unstable. Please share your views on the review page for the article. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 23:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Email

Someone just reverted your comment on my userpage about Misplaced Pages email. Besides the obvious fact that I would have noticed it faster on my talk page, it's been working fine for me the last few days, certainly yesterday. It worked for you too I believe! Dougweller (talk) 07:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Ooops, didn't realize that was your userpage! Sorry. :-) Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Homs/Hims

You previously participated in a discussion of the name of the article Hims. You might be interested in a move proposal at Talk:Hims. — AjaxSmack 01:03, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Science in the Middle Ages

Hi,

I've restored J8079s's section heading on "Islamic world" to the discussion, which was getting confused by comments on China, even after I had removed those sections and that topic had become moot. The section heading will help keep newcomers focused on the issue at hand.

On a related matter, could you comment on deleting Science in Medieval Western Europe? Thanks. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 14:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I am getting a bit confused. If Science in Medieval Western Europe is identical, really copy and paste stuff, then I am for delete, of course, since it is an unnecessary duplication. But I also think we first need to get to know what User:Mcorazao who started all this thinks about it. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Engraved gem

Tag it if you don't like it - or even (shock horror) look for a reference yourself. Otherwise stop trolling. Johnbod (talk) 15:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You know better. WP:Burden of proof is on you. And stop ad hominem when you run out of arguments. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

PS: That's far better now - although it is still not sure whether the text refers to cylinder seals or engraving gems. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Reviewer

Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

For the guideline on reviewing, see Misplaced Pages:Reviewing. Being granted reviewer rights doesn't change how you can edit articles even with pending changes. The general help page on pending changes can be found here, and the general policy for the trial can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. NW (Talk) 17:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

A discussion has begun about whether the article List of ships of the Hanseatic League, which you created or to which you contributed, should be deleted. While contributions are welcome, an article may be deleted if it is inconsistent with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines for inclusion, explained in the deletion policy.

On 22 November 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Amulet MS 5236, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Greek gold amulet MS 5236 was created by block printing as early as the 6th century BC? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Orlady (talk) 12:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

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