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Race and crime

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Race and crime (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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OMG lets see how many policies of are broken here , WP:NPOV, WP:SYNTH, WP:FRINGE, I really cant see this article ever being neutral a classic WP:COATRACK. This is a classic scenario groups/books/people should be covered in those articles per WP:ONEWAY The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:56, 4 Apr

Keep The material is sourced to peer-reviewed studies. That crime rates differ is not disputed. The different theories may disputed but that is not a reason for deletion. The topic is obviously notable and important.Miradre (talk) 22:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It should be noted that those critical of the article are deleting entire sections linking to whole subarticles on the topic, see , of so I suggest everyone to look at version at time of the deletion nomination: Miradre (talk) 22:13, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no cohesive concept of correlation any between Race and Crime this article is WP:SYNTH mishmash tangically related data and theories that really have nothing to do with each the idea is only advanced by fringe groups. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

That is incorrect. For example, the article cites the Handbook of Crime Correlates which is review of 5400 studies in criminology. Many other peer-reviewed articles are also cited, unless they are deleted by those opposing this article. Again, I urge everyone to look at the original version at the time of the deletion nomination.Miradre (talk) 22:21, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

(talk)•(contribs) 22:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I actually have the source in front of me (one the great things about a working an academic library) and you are grossly taking the data provided there out of context. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The handbook? I also have it in front of me. What are you disagreeing about?Miradre (talk) 22:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Specifally what the hell are you citing page number wise? You cited the whole book! I thumbing through it right now I see alot of stuff you could be yanking data from but lets be specific and make sure I aint wrong. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a section on race on starting on page 20. Please do not accuse me of something before you have evidence.Miradre (talk) 22:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect the data provided is not connected with the causality of it being related to race. Its merely one category of data among many. Gross misuse of a source. The Resident Anthropologist

Causality? The handbook states that crimes rates differ for different races as the article also states.Miradre (talk) 22:59, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete. In addition to contravening the policies that the nominator for deletion has noted, the article has grossly misrepresented other Misplaced Pages articles in order to promote this racist theory. It contained a link to Race and crime in the United Kingdom with the following commentary: "Different racial/ethnic groups differ in crime rates such as overrepresentation for Afro-Caribbeans". As the UK article itself notes, a Home Office study has shown that once other factors (e.g. age profiles of different groups etc) were taken into account, there was no correlation between ethnicity and crime rates. I have of course deleted this section, but I think further checks would be needed on other parts of the article too, if this is anything to go by. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

If you disagreed with one part of the sentence, you should have removed that part, not the whole section, including the link to the main page.Miradre (talk) 22:22, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, you misrepresented what the home office report stated. The other factors accounted were for example SES and many similar factors. That different ethnic groups were over- and underrepresented regarding crime was not disputed.Miradre (talk) 22:27, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. The subject of race and crime receives significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. Location (talk) 22:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The article here is presents correlations and causations blurred. The articles cited use Race as category of data collection but do not conclude it causation or "ultimate cause" The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Unclear what you mean. The article does not claim race as "ultimate cause", whatever that means. That crime rates differ is sourced to reliable peer-reviewed sources.Miradre (talk) 23:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly the material describe a correlation not a causation. Its saying in the source talking about context of crime and it indicates data related to race and crime. The way its being presented here as race as the causation of the increased crime rates among that population. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 23:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Here is what for example the Handbook states "According to all of the available evidence, blacks commit more violent offenses than do whites (Table 2.3.2a). The extent of the differences has usually exceeded a ratio of 3:1. Additional evidence that blacks are substantially more involved in violent crime than whites has come from victimization surveys." The article only repeats such statements.Miradre (talk) 23:13, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You missing the point you are using data that does not prsented th same way you are using it The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs)

How is the text in the article different from what is stated in Handbook? See again my example above.Miradre (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I again note that those wanting to delete the article are doing mass deletions, including of whole sections leading to entire subarticles, so I urge everyone to look at the article as it looked when it was nominated for deletion: Miradre (talk) 23:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC

Yeah when bunk material exists then its yanked The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 23:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Deleting an entire section leading to a whole subarticle about the topic is obviously incorrect: Miradre (talk) 23:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Simply put, you are tying together sources and trying to put together a pattern that aint there. When when were the Malori a race? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 23:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I have not written anything about Malori or Maori. Why was the entire section about crime in the UK, including a link to the main article deleted? See Miradre (talk) 23:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

But I see that you have done mass deletions of sourced material: I have not written any of that but I disagree with the mass deletion. Why was everything deleted if you do not think Maori are a race? Miradre (talk) 23:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• Delete. Single fringe POV which can be summed up as: "inferior races are criminal, it's in their genes". Ridiculous lip-service paid to mainstream views ("has been criticized" and that's it) to try and get away with it. If anything, article should be about how pseudo science have tried to link (types of) crime to biological conceptions of race, or how crime as a social issue is exploited in racial politics (which pseudo-science is definitely a part of), or how institutions deal with crime according to the racial classification they ascribe to perpretators & victims. In that view, there is nothing in the present article that is salvageable. Jagiello (talk) 23:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems that you dislike the sourced facts and proposed explanations. That is not a reason for deletion and Misplaced Pages is not censored. If there are sourced views and material missing, then you should add it to the article.Miradre (talk) 23:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You are both using notoriously fringe racist sources and misusing reliable mainstream sources. When confronted with evidence, you retorted that the reliable sources were "afraid" to support your POV (conversation about diagram). This is not the way wikipedia is supposed to work. Jagiello (talk) 23:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

That was only regarding if races are biologically real or not. That is irrelevant for crime statistics which can be done on any arbitrary group like social classes or occupations which no one would argue are biological concepts.Miradre (talk) 23:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, after searching the literature I found a source giving more sociological theories for worldwide crime differences. Does this resolve your concerns? I should note that there are still large scale deletions of sourced material, including of a link to an entire subarticle, Race and crime in the United Kingdom, so one should also look at what has been deleted. Here is a diff regarding the current situation: Miradre (talk) 23:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• comment I think this is a similar issue to the recent Jews and money Afd. There is a decent article to be written about this topic: this is not it. I am uncertain whether to argue for deletion on the grounds that the current article is difficult to salvage and potentially puts wikipedia in a bad light, or thwther to vote Keep and stubify.. I don't see the problem here being the existence of the article, for me the problem is that we have a user who is very keen on making sure that every possible connection between race, biology and crime is being represented very thoroughly in wikipedia, but who is not apparently similarly interested in representing the opposing viewpoints. This amounts to consistent cherrypicking and povpushing, and there are not currently many editors with an interest in providing the opposing viewpoint, so the coverage quickly becomes heavily slanted towards the particularly biological racialist research that apparently interests this editor, but which does not represent the majority of reserach in the field. ·Maunus·ƛ· 23:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)All the data centered around Minorities and Crime which potentially is viable article. This one has no viable Neutral content in its entire editing history. linking race and crime is bullshit and ingoring the issue in favor of POV pushing.... It Needs to be cleansed with fire The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 00:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Maunus that the article needs evidence on the other side, that crime is primarily a cultural issue. Since we liberals are right on this point, we shouldn't have much problem finding said evidence. Leadwind (talk) 23:59, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

What would put Misplaced Pages in bad light is censorship. Obviously the topic is notable. That crime rates differ may be undesirable but is not reason for deletion. Different theories are presented and it is not claimed that anyone is true. If a theory is missing, then please add it. It is unfortunate that many of those critical does not contribute to the article, except doing mass deletions of sourced material as per above, if something is missing as they claim. I am grateful for Leadwind's view and look forward to constructive editing.Miradre (talk) 00:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

This is not censorship, it is about serving the interests of wikipedia. If you were in fact interested in and able to write balancedly and neutrally about the topic of race then wikipedia would clearly profit from your doing so. I have however seen nothing to suggest that that is the case. Misplaced Pages works when all editors try to work towards balance - not when one editor says I will provide this viewpoint then others can provide the opposing one if they they think it is so important.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:09, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That is not what I said. I have added all significant views I have found. Just now added some material on sociological theories after searching. See . However, I cannot add what is not existing. Furthermore, you are hardly a neutral Misplaced Pages editor on this subject since you without exception oppose biological theories and prefer social ones on a large variety of articles.Miradre (talk) 00:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

So the reason I am not neutral is because I have been the only one to take up your challenge to provide the opposing viewpoint. That is laughable. Also race related article constitutes a very small portion of my total editing. That is not exactly the case for you.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

You also, for example, regularly edit the evolutionary psychology article and talk page and oppose biological views there. That pattern is constant, opposing biological theories in favor of social ones. Not saying that this is wrong but I find it strange that you should judge me regarding neutrality. I would consider myself far more neutral since I add non-biological theories and views whenever I find them in the sources.Miradre (talk) 00:26, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It is hard to assume good faith in the face of systematic hypercritical and subject-changing tactics. Mirardre will challenge you on the slightest detail until you patiently prove him/her wrong. Then s/he'll declare the whole point irrelevant, and move to another subject. Never integrating criticism, inviting you to doing it yourself then harrassing you for doing it. Attrition war and treading on the limits of wiki etiquette hoping you'll cross it yourself is the tactics here. Communication tactics are being methodically used here, be careful not to waste your time and energy. Jagiello (talk) 00:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That I do not include criticism if false since I regularly do that and try to include the views I find the sources. If you have specific complaint please give a diff and I will reply. Thanks.Miradre (talk) 00:55, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

You've started doing it only when your creature began to face the prospect of deletion. It seems you have concessions in store that you are willing to deploy when cornered. I am amazed at all the information and references you could come up with to give the appearence of "ballance" once your project was threatened with deletion, when before that you would state if you know of alternative POV and sources feel free to add them - as if you didn't know them yourself. You have a very well planned strategy but it is not opaque. Jagiello (talk) 01:52, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That is incorrect. If I wanted to include only the views of one side, then when I cited the Handbook of Crime Correlates I should only have mentioned official crime rates which all shows racial differences. But instead I also included the opposing views from self-reported offending. On the other hand, some of those disliking unpleasant views have simply mass deleted sourced information they dislike or links to entire subarticles on this topic. If anyone should be censured, it is such editors.Miradre (talk) 02:01, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. Those of us liberals who maintain that culture, not genetics, is the primary determinant of behavior should have nothing to fear from some statistics. If we're ever going to lay to rest the idea that "race" is the main correlate to crime, this is the very page on which we should do it. If we're confident that we're right, I don't understand why we should be afraid of this challenge to our viewpoint. And if we can only defend out view by forbidding debate, then shame on us. We should be happy to have this page so we can set the record straight. Steven Pinker, for example, demonstrates that the violent crime rate in "white" nations has dropped dramatically in the last few centuries, and that's clearly due to culture, not race. Leadwind (talk) 23:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
  • As i suggested linking minorities and crime is doable. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 00:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
    • It would be convenient for us liberals who favor a sociological view if this page were about "minorities" and crime, but that's missing the point. Some would-be experts say that high crime correlates to race even when that race isn't in the minority. Those would-be experts deserve their shot at making their case based on evidence, and liberals like me should feel confident that the overall data will support a sociological rather than biological explanation for any correlation between race and crime. Leadwind (talk) 05:13, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
  • The page should at least be emptied before it is reworked. I'm not sure referring to liberal POV is desirable. There are "liberals" who believe in hard genetic determinism, and conversely. As to the culture thing, let's make it clear that it is culture (as the opposite of nature, a vague catch all signifier that includes social structures, relations and so on.) and not cultures (proxy for ethnicity). Ultimately it is probably better to have a relevant page with reliable data rather than see it perpetually re-made for pov-pushing purposes. Jagiello (talk) 00:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The data from for example the Handbook of Crime Correlates, a review of 5200 studies, is reliable. As was much of the other sourced data that has been mass deleted. Absolutely no reason for deletion except if one dislikes the data itself but that is not a valid reason in Misplaced Pages.Miradre (talk) 00:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Look at the source! it does not back up what you are saying and only <1% of those sources are used in the race section of the book . The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 00:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

How does it not back up what the article is saying? Why did you do a mass deletion of sourced material (not added by me)? Miradre (talk) 01:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Keep While the politically correct may recoil from the subject, it seems to me that it is a genuine one. I would expect to see articles on the links between 'poverty and race' and 'crime and poverty' as well. That is, I personally suspect the underlying explanation for most crime has to do with poverty and perhaps culture, more than race. But i don't know. Sweeping it under the mat given the existence of RS is pathetic. Greglocock (talk) 00:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Look at the sources! They do not back the article its case of WP:SYNTH. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 00:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Which source is cited incorrectly?Miradre (talk) 00:50, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete This article is pure WP:COATRACK. The article had been a redirect, and was recreated by an editor blocked for racist vandalism. That the cause of the article was taken up by a WP:CPUSH editor only makes the situation worse, not better. While it is possible that there may be a good article with this title, there already exist several much better related articles which could be used to develop the topic before splitting it off into it's own page. See the "See Also" in Race and crime in the United States for a list of related articles. aprock (talk) 02:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

How is the article a WP:COATRACK? As far as I can see the article has survived two deletion attempts and nothing there stated that the article should be a redirect. I will also note that you are hardly neutral on this topic and have consistently edited against biological explanations in other articles. So I feel it is strange that you should judge me for neutrality. I always include any opposing views in the sources I find.Miradre (talk) 03:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

If you believe there is a problem of any kind with my editing, please do bring such issues up on the appropriate noticeboard. aprock (talk) 04:12, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete - I agree with Maunus that it's possible to write a neutral decent article on this subject (mostly about goofy 19th century theories long since debunked) but this isn't it. Given the amount of OR and SYNTH in the article (some of it sneaky and indirect - insinuating a casual relation without claiming one outright, since that would obviously be a red flag that something sketchy's up) it is doubtful if the present version can be salvaged. Were this to be deleted, and someone were to write a different, legitimate, article under the same title - or completely overhaul this one - I might vote keep.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:13, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - Future ArbCom nightmare, I'm sure... The topic is notable, absolutely. I don't see this as a coatrack. I'm sure honest people can and do differ about the degree that this represents impermissible POV. This strikes me as a "Keep and fix" situation. Carrite (talk) 03:24, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I think this already went to ArbCom under the topic of Race & Intelligence. Perhaps some amendments or clarifications could nip this in the butt. I'm pessimistic about the potential for fixing this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:37, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Different crime rates for different racial groups is not correlations. It is like saying that different incomes for different occupations if just correlations and does not prove anything for certain regarding the relationship between occupation and income. Different occupations have different incomes. Different races have different crime rates according to academic research.Miradre (talk) 03:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

No, it is just correlations - or "relations" if you'd like, since one variable is categorical - in the sense that the differences largely disappear once other factors are taken into account (from income to persecution rates, etc.). Same thing is not necessarily true for occupations and income, even if you control for "other factors" like, say years of schooling (a 2 year MBA makes more than a 6 year Educational Psychology PhD). Your analogy is false. Other than that I don't see what the parallel between occupations/income and race/crime is supposed to be.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:50, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

If you have sources for you claims regarding differences disappearing, then we could include them in the article. What are the sources?Miradre (talk) 03:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone also should take a look at Miradre's article on Immigration and crime.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Please do. Do you have sources for your claims above?Miradre (talk) 04:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm a little wary of being drawn into your game here, since that runs the danger of legitimizing this discussion. With that caveat, there's for example this which states that the race/crime relation disappears once % of single-parent households are controlled for. Also if I remember correctly there's a study by Steven Levitt which shows that once median income, income inequality and % of households headed by women is controlled for the effect of race tend to disappear. Here's a general survey which tells the same story - major determinants of crime are family structure and (neighborhood) income, arrest rates probably have as much to do with how laws are enforced and perceptions by the police and the general public than with actual crime rates, etc. Internationally I'd add in the % of pop that is composed of 18-25 single males. There is a lot more out there, just got to look.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:43, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Another one: Economics of race and crime - "Controlling for moral compliance and economic conditions we find that race is not a factor in determining whether individuals engage in crime or not" (more).Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see all of the above refers the US. Not crime rates in other nations or worldwide crime rates. There is a separate article for Race and crime in the United States. This article already notes that there are many explanations proposed for the US racial crimes rates. However, such explanation do not necessarily apply outside the US. More generally, even if racial differences should disappear if you control for many other factors, this does not mean that the overrepresentation itself disappear. So even, if one could explain all of the racial differences in crime with social factors, there would still be an overrepresentation that is important in itself for society to analyze and discuss.Miradre (talk) 05:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Another point it that the textbooks considers race and crime a topic that is noteworthy enough to discuss. So I fail to see why Misplaced Pages should not.Miradre (talk) 05:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Nice dodge. Like I said, there's probably a legitimate article there to be written, but this ain't it. If this is deleted and somebody writes a decent, NPOV, not OR, not SYNTH, article on the subject then I'd vote keep - as I've already stated above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

None of your sources seems to apply to worldwide crime differences. Only the US which is a separate topic. Furthermore, controlling for many social factors does not disprove biology. This is because factors such as the SES of the parents in itself may be due to biological factors so controlling for many such "social" factors may actually remove evidence for biology. Exactly what is OR and SYNTH with current article? The article already includes the view that economic development and social inequality are theories regarding the different crime rates, so what is not NPOV? Miradre (talk) 05:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

"controlling for many social factors does not disprove biology" - I don't know what it means to "disprove biology". Wait, are you really saying that the connection between race and crime is biological?

And yes, my sources apply to US, that's what I know about. But if this connection between race and crime is supposed to be biological then that shouldn't matter.

The SYNTH and OR are in the interpretation of primary sources in the article and in stringing together cherry picked sources, while ignoring many many many other studies out there. This is related to the problem of UNDUE WEIGHT given to a FRINGE "theory". You add all that up and it's pretty hopeless. So delete (or stubify) and then maybe recreate.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I am saying that there are researchers arguing that there is a biological connection between race and crime. Such a possibility is not disproven by controlling for many "social" factors which themselves may have biological ultimate causes. Again, for example parental SES may be in part due to parental biological traits. Furthermore, even if biology was disproven, this does not mean that one cannot study the relationship between race and crime just like one can study the relationship between crime, and, say, class. Please give a specific example of what is SYNTH, OE, or POV. The article includes several sociological theories such as social inequality and economic development. You have given no evidence that for example IQ is a fringe theory that should not be allowed to be mentioned.Miradre (talk) 06:12, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

And who are these researchers? A couple of fringe writers widely criticized (and even accused of racism) by the general academic community, but who's ideas are given widespread prominence by you in articles you work on. That is the essence of FRINGE and UNDUE. Here's an example - the article uses numbers from J. Philippe Rushton, without mentioning at all the controversy surrounding him or the fact that he "has been criticized by other researchers and civil rights organisations as being poorly researched and racist in nature.". Or that in his application of r/K selection theory Rushton "does not apply the theory correctly, and displays a lack of understanding evolution in general" and "that the sources for the biological data gathered in support of Rushton's hypothesis were misrepresented and that much of his social science data was collected by dubious means." Same for these other "researchers" you've strewn through these articles.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:35, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Despite the impression you and many others have, the best available evidence is that most IQ researchers have the same view as those you call fringe. That is, racial differences are partly due to genetic factors. See The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book). Now regarding Rushton's r/K theory, it is certainly controversial, but it does for example have an article of its own in the "Encyclopedia of Race and Crime" (2009) by Greene and Gabbidon. The controversy regarding the theory is mentioned in this article and in the article Race, Evolution, and Behavior which this article links to.Miradre (talk) 06:46, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Most "IQ researchers" may very well have the same views as those I call fringe but that just makes them fringe - come on, you're using a book about supposed "liberal bias" in academia to support your notion that this stuff is widely accepted or something. The controversy regarding Rushton's (mis)application of the theory in the article is "mentioned" with a paltry "There have been various criticisms of the theory as described in the article on the book" and that's it. And the point is rather that Rushton really shouldn't be used much in the article at all.

Anyway, I see that this discussion has become pointless - you ask for reasons, I give you reasons, you ignore them. You ask for sources, I give you sources, you ignore them. And jump from one detail to another and change (sub)topics. It's a classic case of civil POV pushing and IDIDN'THEARTHAT. I'm tired and not particularly interested in wasting my time any further - all you've done is cement my belief that it'd be best if the article was outright deleted. Otherwise these problems will continue.06:54, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The only poll ever done on IQ researchers shows that most common view is the one you call fringe. Regarding the r/K theory we obviously cannot repeat all the criticisms here. Neither does this article cite all supporting evidence for the theory. Only the evidence regarding worldwide crime is mentioned. For the rest, the interested reader can read the separate article, where there is more criticism, as this article states. I again note that the r/K theory has a separate article of its own in the "Encyclopedia of Race and Crime" (2009) by Greene and Gabbidon.Miradre (talk) 07:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

• Stubify and Rewrite I think that's the best procedure for coatracky POV articles about notable subjects. Qrsdogg (talk) 05:13, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
• Delete The problems with POV and synthesis are so overwhelming that the article would have to be written from scratch, provided that there are reliable souces to support it. Note that the lead section is unsupported by sources. It says, "An observed correlation between race and crime has been noted in a number of countries...." But there are no sources that provide an overview of this type of observation. Also, the article assumes that racial categories are generally understood, but there is no support for this either. TFD (talk) 18:22, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
  • I have stated several times now something along the lines of Criminal justice system and minorities, or Simply crime and minorities would be extremely viable articles and Second year Sociology major could write. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 23:20, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
  • "But there are no sources that provide an overview of this type of observation." I've added a source to support that now.Boothello (talk) 18:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
• Delete Seems to be a WP:COATRACK of bits of stuff that together implies a viewpoint that is somewhat creepy. Salvage anything useful, if any, into other articles and delete. --Martin (talk) 23:12, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:11, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Delete - I've had a chance to spend a bit more time with this article. Despite the notable topic, this is a POV-laden catastrophe, highly US-centric in orientation and seemingly racist in fundamental intent. As with the Jews and Money mess, this needs to be blown up and rebuilt from scratch, sticking to the serious mainstream published literature. We've seen this same basic crap before with Race and intelligence and ArbCom may well be seeing it again unless this POV express gets nuked and replaced by something on the topic worthy of Misplaced Pages. Carrite (talk) 03:43, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
• Keep - Subjects such as race and crime receives significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. Such as in this particular case.. I find not good faith reason to delete this article.--BabbaQ (talk) 14:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
• Keep and improve - I think it says a lot that this article has survived two previous AFDs. It means the article is plagued with POV problems, but also that the topic is clearly notable and deserves its own article. There are sources that discuss race and crime in a global context, and I added one of them to support the unreferenced statement that TFD pointed out. I've also looked at the AFD that a few people have mentioned for the Jews and money article, and the difference between that article and this one is that several parts of Jews and money misrepresented the source material. On this article, most of the existing content is relevant and well-sourced, and the problem is just that the article doesn't provide enough discussion about social (rather than biological) explanations for racial disparities in crime rates. Therefore, we don't need to get rid of the existing content, someone just needs to add all of the information that's missing.Boothello (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

Comment It is incorrect to say that the article survived 2 AfDs. It was changed first to a redirect and then shortly afterwards to a disambiguation page. Then Giornorosso, an editor subsequently banned for his racist comments, recreated the page using a userfied copy of the deleted article. Mathsci (talk) 18:38, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not see any requirement in the AfDs that the article should be a redirect.Miradre (talk) 22:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Keep per Miradre Lionel (talk) 00:20, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
• Delete or stubify. Miradre is talking here about "peer reviewed sources", but note that s/he added in the daughter article Race and crime in the United States several references to a report by the New Century Foundation, a body "dedicated to the ideal of the United States as a white European nation". There is some clear agenda-pushing going on in these related articles. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
  • The New Century Foundation never made that statement. Please check sources before making claims. If there is anything wrong with the report, please add it to the article.Miradre (talk) 17:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
  • A strange double standard to criticize a well-sourced report but at the same time uncritically accept unsourced statements. But then this applies to this whole emotional topic in general.Miradre (talk) 18:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

That statement can be easily sourced to several reliable sources, whether or not you believe that NEw Century Foundation has said this is irrelevant.·Maunus·ƛ· 20:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Then please give those sources. Regardless, there is certainly a double standard when uncritically accepting an unsourced statement in Misplaced Pages and while at the same time rejecting a sourced report. Anyway, that an organization may be an advocacy organization for a certain POV is not a reason for excluding reports from it. The articles in Misplaced Pages has numerous views and reports by various organizations with certain POVs.Miradre (talk) 02:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

"That an organization may be an advocacy organization for a certain POV is not a reason for excluding reports from it". No, one can of course cite it as a source for its own opinions. They should however not be cited as representative of anything other than a fringe point of view, and should be given appropriate weight regarding their lack of recognition in relation to the subject matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Should all advocacy organizations be described as fringe just because they are advocacy organizations? Anti-immigration, pro-immigrations, pro-liberal, pro-conservative, and so on? Or should all interest organizations for ethnic groups be described as fringe? Miradre (talk) 03:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

No, not all advocacy organisations are fringe, but even so, they are only reliable sources for non-contentious information. We apply commonsense and see groups as being on a continuum. Slow Food is an advocacy group but not fringe; the "911 truth" groups advocate a fringe idea; the English Defence League is an extremist source. The group you cited (a number of times) is somewhere on that continuum, and the important point is that you used it to support contentious ideas in an article on a contentious topic. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Maunus: That statement can be easily sourced to several reliable sources, whether or not you believe that NEw Century Foundation has said this is irrelevant.. Miradre: Then please give those sources.. Here you go:

"white supremacist group led by Jared Taylor"

"both the organization and periodical (American Renaissance - VM) dedicated to the ideal of United States as a European white nation"

"far-right fringe", "white supremacist"

Organization's head Jared Taylor "white supremacist", "noted white nationalist"

And there's plenty more out there. Seriously, it's not like it's hard to find sources to show that the source Miradre is putting into these articles are white supremacist racist garbage.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I have put nothing from the New Century Foundation in this article. Only in the Race and crime in the United States article. There is nothing in the policies that prohibits reports on a topic from advocacy groups. Furthermore, per WP:NPOV notable views should be included. This report is widely cited regarding Race and crime in the United States so it qualifies. If you think that the statistics presented in the report are wrong, then please give sources with an opposing views. Ad hominem attacks are not valid. All the figures in the report are based on official statistics and reports on the scientific literature.Miradre (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You asked for sources to support the contention that this "advocacy group", New Century Foundation was a racist, white supremacist group. I just provided these sources. Now you're changing topics and want to discuss "whether the numbers are wrong" - this is a standard POV pushing tactic, when proven wrong or provided with reliable sources pretend the discussion is about something else - and calling these descriptions from sources "ad hominem"; why did you ask for sources to support them then? I have no interest in having any further conversation with you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Delete per aprock and Volunteer Marek. Prima facie example of WP:COATRACK, and would take a great deal of time and effort to bring into the realm of WP:NPOV. Harping on a single peer-reviewed source over and over won't change any of that. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 20:12, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
  • There is certainly more than one peer-reviewed source in the article. Furthermore, some are literature reviews and based on numerous peer-reviewed studies. For example the Handbook of Crime Correlates lists numerous, well over a hundred studies just for black-white crime differences.Miradre (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
• Keep, whether or not you agree with the article, it should be obvious that the subject is quite notable.--RaptorHunter (talk) 20:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
• Delete or Stub. I agree with those who say the topic is notable - it is, and a good article about it would be worth having. But this AfD has to decide on this current article, not on the topic, and this article is full of NPOV and SYNTH and would pretty much need to be completely rewritten -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

So go ahead and rewrite it. You don't need to delete it to do that.--RaptorHunter (talk) 00:39, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

And I don't need to rewrite it in order to voice my opinion here -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:45, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Keep I think it should be obvious the article's topic is suitable, but the concerns seem to be over the page's current condition. Per WP:BEFORE, "If the article can be fixed through normal editing, then it is not a good candidate for AfD". I don't think this article is hopeless enough for deletion, though, as there are some reasonable sources and workable material in there; I think, however, that the POV/SYNTH stuff should be removed and better content added. I'd do it myself, but my to-do list is already over 100 items long ... /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment With regard to the 'SOFIXIT' argument, I'd point out that if one wishes to write on the factors resulting in differential offending statistics, mainstream sources will only treat 'race' as a fringe theory at best. Essentially this article is a POV-fork on a broader topic, and as such is never going to be able to reflect the wider debate with due weight. That the 'fork' has been created instead of a broader-based article is unfortunate, but the appropriate 'fix' would seem to be to create the broader article, and incorporate (with due weight) whatever reliably sourced material can be salvaged from this article. I'd also point out that since the application of the term 'race' to human populations is highly controversial within the scientific community, the very title of the article is almost certainly a breach of WP:NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:39, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

We can always retitle the page and whatnot. But even if race is a fringe theory, as you say, surely we can then have an article that covers the differing views about race and crime? (Even though, I don't think it's a real "fringe theory"; there have been multiple publications about this by people of differing perspectives, e.g. , , , , , , , , , .) If there is a broader article that would be more suitable for this topic to be merged into, I don't see any problem with that, but I don't know which broader article that would be. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 21:39, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

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