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April 3

any information on Our Lady of the Highlands was located in Ft. Thomas,Kentucky

I attended Our Lady of the Highlands school for girls/convent from october1978 to june 1980.I would like any information as to year it closed and why,any class reunions, how to obtain old school records,and or where to find pictures or newspaper articles during years of operation and after. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.65.57 (talk) 00:37, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The best place to find this information would be to contact the parish or diocese where the school was located. If the school has since closed, its records would likely still be held by the parish or diocese that ran the school. Fort Thomas, Kentucky would appear to be located in the the Roman Catholic Diocese of Covington. While that school is not currently listed as one that the Diocese currently operates, if it used to they would be the best people to contact. The diocese has a contact page at http://www.covingtondiocese.org/ --Jayron32 02:14, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Or you could sign up to this school reunion website that boasts 62 former pupils from your school. Or this one which has somebody who claims to be from the "Class of 2004". I'm British, so I'm not sure if that means the year they started or the year they left. However this site says "Our Lady of Highlands - in 1866 land was purchased by the Sisters of Good Shepherd for this school. It was first a frame building and later a stone one that operated for 100 years, closed in the 1990s and torn down." There's also a discussion on the Fort Thomas Forum. There's a photo here. Alansplodge (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC) i went to our lady of the highlands please contact me linda calvert 859-270-9819

My name is linda calvert i gradiated in 1979 we have a private facebook page for all olh girls please feel free to call me 859 270 9819. I attended olh from 74 to 79. .there are about 70 girls in our olh group would love to have u. We also have reunions.thanks linda calvert

weather in san miguel de allende, mexico

The Misplaced Pages website on weather in san miguel varies from the weather channel estimates varies by being 10-17 degrees F. colder. Why such a variance and which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolwitz (talk • contribs) 02:09, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't knoww where San Miguel is but the first thing that comes to mind is, What is your elevation?Phalcor (talk) 02:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I just found you're up in the mountains not far from M.city. Your weather report is probably coming from a lower elevation, or you could be getting cold air rolling down from higher mountains near by.Phalcor (talk) 02:59, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Here's our article link: San Miguel de Allende. It says "altitude varies from between 850 to 2,700 meters above sea level". That's a huge change, so I'd expect a wide range in temps to match. StuRat (talk) 04:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Weight of baggage allowed in aircraft

what is the maximum weight (of baggage) allowed per person in an aircraft?

These days it varies hugely, depending on which airline you fly with, and the kind of ticket you buy. If you're planning a journey, check the airline's website. HiLo48 (talk) 04:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Also it varies by the type of aircraft. In a large airliner, typically they give you a maximum weight and say that you can pay extra for more. I have been on an aircraft before where they said absolutely no more than a certain weight (I can't remember if it was 50 lbs or more) because of aircraft limitations. And, since the question is specific to "aircraft", not just "airlines", on the PA28, I can take no more than 300lbs in the baggage compartment, and often far less than this, because the plane must be in balance and no more than 2400 lbs total weight when I take off (I'd have to take out nearly all of the fuel to have 300lbs of baggage+3 adult passengers, which defeats the purpose). The same principals apply to all aircraft, though the larger the aircraft, typically the more weight you can tend to put in it. More fuel and passengers reduce baggage capacity (with full fuel and the other three in my family, there is 10-20lbs baggage capacity per person in the PA28), less fuel and fewer passengers increase it dramatically. Hope that helps. Falconus 13:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The commercial airlines I have flown with recently, have a limit of 32 kg per bag (so the baggage handlers can handle it). Short haul flights limit you to one checked-in bag, one carry-on bag, and one small accessory bag such as a laptop bag. On long haul flights you are limited to 2 checked-in bags and the same carry on stuff. Any more than this, and you have to pay for excess baggage. I'm unsure if there is an ultimate upper limit. Budget airlines have similar carry-on limits but you have to pay for all checked-in baggage. Astronaut (talk) 14:22, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Flowers for men

My boyfriend is a composer, and he has several music academy concerts coming up. Is it normal to give a male musician flowers after a performance? I'm in the US, and he is from Spain, if that makes any difference. Calliopejen1 (talk) 04:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Most people appreciate heartfelt gifts and thoughtful acts, regardless of the gender. If it isn't "expected" (read: automatic and likely cliché), then it would be doubly so... --Jayron32 04:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The conductor and soloists often get flowers, yes. Less often for the rest. StuRat (talk) 04:44, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm male, and have had flowers given to me, at a photography exhibition showing photographs by me, my mother, and a couple of other people. I appreciated the gesture and took the flowers home with me, but unfortunately they died after only a few days. JIP | Talk 18:10, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

There is something poetically tragic about gifting flowers since they are usually put on display only to slowly whither and die away. Maybe you should give him a houseplant instead. Quinn 16:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Flying

why dont the airlines charge fat people more to fly as they use more fuel?--92.28.66.20 (talk) 08:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

This question was discussed here about a week or two ago, you can find the discussion here (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2011_March_24) - one thing wasn't mentioned (from my memory of the discussion) was how it would be enforced anyway - I booked my tickets to America about 4 months ago and I don't go for another 2 months. In the 6 months from booking my flight to turning up at the airport I could have easily lost/gained 25 pounds so what would they do then? ny156uk (talk) 08:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

You don't pack your bags six months before the flight, though, do you? I think the OP would envisage that they would weigh people at the airport, same as they do with bags, and if they are over a given limit, then they pay extra. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

They secretly weigh you at the check in counter, there are scales under the floor there. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense. There are no scales under the floor, just a remotely released trap door for those on a list.. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:13, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Aye. On quiet days if you listen really carefully you can hear lions underneath you. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

What Adam's saying is that there's no way in without a weigh-in. -- Jack of Oz 20:17, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Yea, that would be weigh cool. StuRat (talk) 07:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

And when the person at the counter hands your tickets back, they very often say, 'Sorry for the weight....' --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You guys are great. this is new to me, but wonderful entertainment. I can't see to type for the tears in my eyes.190.56.125.192 (talk) 17:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

This may be nitpicking, but I weigh in at the 10th percentile with about 62kg at a height of 1.80. As a result I should receive a refund when I float onto an airplane.

Assuming that a typical bunch of passengers is a statistical valid sample of the population, this would be a zero sum game between surcharges and refunds whilst still costing time, money and inconvenience.

Of course, I have never shared a plane with a gaggle of Sumo wrestlers... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Whatever you do, don't goose any of them. :-) StuRat (talk) 07:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

For the same reason they don't charge the dumb kids more at private school -- it's apparently not nice. DRosenbach 05:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Really? They certainly did at mine, insamuch as about the top third in the entrance exam (including myself) were awarded a 'scholarship' which exempted our parents from having to pay some or all of the tuition fees. Since the demise of the UK's 'Direct Grant' system that proportion may have dropped, but I'm pretty sure that many Private (called "Public" in the UK) Schools still offer scholarships to some of their intake. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.111 (talk) 00:46, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

But if they tried to levy a surcharge on the dumbest third, I doubt if that would have gone over very well. StuRat (talk) 07:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't many of the elite private schools just reject the dumbest 90% or something anyway? Nil Einne (talk) 16:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I just had a thought: Maybe the reason airlines have absurdly small seats is to discourage fat people from flying with them ? StuRat (talk) 05:49, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

If they really wanted to make an effort to improve comfort for everybody and increase seat size for the obese, they could take out every other seat and would only have to double fares (less than double, actually, considering the reduced fuel and staff requirements). I bet many people would go for that. Consider the following arrangement for 3 rows of seats (each seat is shown as a "U"):

 current     proposed
 seating     seating

|UUU UUU|   |U U  U |
|UUU UUU|   | U  U U|
|UUU UUU|   |U U  U |

All seats could be wider under this set-up, and the seats that would be alone under this new arrangement could be extra wide. StuRat (talk) 05:49, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

StuRat, they are already doing that. It's called first class. The difference is that it also usually comes with more cargo weight included in the ticket (but it stands to reason that the clothes of an obese person also weigh more) and a curtain between it and the tourist class seats. – b_jonas 08:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

No, first class gives you just a little more room (not double the room), but you also get all sorts of luxuries, too, and often have to pay more than double, as a result. So, for a fat person, who isn't rich, it's a much worse deal than what I propose. StuRat (talk) 05:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Where to find Isopropyl alcohol and other chemicals?

In what type of store would I be able to buy Isopropyl alcohol and possibly other chemicals? Plus does anyone know if there are online stores that ship most chemicals in non-commercial quantities? Thanks in front for any response, TMCk (talk) 14:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Isopropyl alcohol can be bought in your standard drug store/chemist's/pharmacy. It is a basic component of many first-aid kits. Bielle (talk) 14:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

For online stores: Sigma-Aldrich is known for their wide variety of chemicals. They tend to be geared towards people in a laboratory setting; their chemical are often higher grade, but also more expensive, than many alternatives. Many common solid chemicals can be ordered in the U.S. from cheap-chemicals.com at relatively reasonable rates (no alcohol, or any solvents, though). In both cases, chemical are generally sold in relatively small quantities. Both will make you jump through some hoops, especially for the more dangerous stuff. Buddy431 (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes 'Bielle' is right, but read the label. Isopropyl alc.(rubbing alcohol) comes in a variety of concentrations. Usually 40% - 70% solution in water. Depends what you need.190.56.125.192 (talk) 18:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

You can get pure (i.e. technical grade) isopropyl alcohol by asking the pharmacist/chemist directly, or at least you could back when that was what you needed to clean cassette tape drive heads. Franamax (talk) 19:02, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Why wouldn't an isopropyl/water mix work for that ? StuRat (talk) 07:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You want it to evaporate quickly, and water might encourage rust and cause problems with the drive (such as the tape sticking). I obtained pure isopropyl alcohol for cleaning tape heads from a (UK) chemist's shop (pharmacist's) many years ago. Dbfirs 07:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you all for your helpful comments. TMCk (talk) 20:55, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Who runs Defkalion, the new cold fusion company?

There's been a recent spate of activity surrounding a 'cold fusion' 'invention' from Italy, being marketed as the Energy Catalyzer (for which we have a fairly new and not-very-good, much-too-credulous article). A new company, Defkalion Green Technologies S.A. (their one-page placeholder website), based in Greece has been created to (purportedly) manufacture and distribute the device; the inventors have been using the interest of this company to try to bolster their credibility in their press releases. The only individual so far unambiguously linked to Defkalion is their 'spokesperson', Symeon Tsalikoglou, about whom I can locate no further info. Does anyone know how to identify the company's directors or senior executives, or know anything more about Tsalikoglou? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:59, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Ever since Rutherford's claimed transmutation of nitrogen into hydrogen and oxygen,(oxygen being a heavier element, therefor requiring fusion in that instance) several individuals and corporations have attempted to patent and market cold fusion related products. many millions have been spent on it. The net result is that universities, governments law courts and the U.S patent office have denied validity of those claims. The generally accepted scientific view is that fusion of elements requires extremely high temps. and pressures existing only in novas, supernovas,etc.Phalcor (talk) 19:07, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't really answer the question. No, can't find anything about Symeon Tsali gotcha.Phalcor (talk) 19:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

All I can find is a document that lists him as Director of International Sales for Milotos Editions, a subdivision of Greek publisher called Troia Publishing. Looie496 (talk) 22:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

english language

how is a judge who marries couples at a registry office called? what`s the exact meaning of ¨read around¨ is it a phrasal verb? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.132.89.185 (talk) 19:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

At least in Australia you don't need to be a judge to marry people. See Celebrant (Australia) or Marriage officiant. See also Becoming a celebrant. - 220.101 talk 20:09, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

In the UK, an official of the local authority called a Superintendant Registrar conducts wedding ceremonies. Alansplodge (talk) 20:14, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

OR: You may not need to be a judge to marry a couple, but it helps to be a judge to marry a single :( --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

In the U.S. the term is "justice of the peace". See Justice_of_the_peace#United_States. --Jayron32 21:16, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

In the UK England and Wales, the official name is Register office, though "registry office" is a very common variant. However, civil weddings can now take place at many other suitably-approved venues. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 22:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

As previously discussed here. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 22:22, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Questions like these might do better at the language reference desk. I suppose "read around" is a phrasal verb, but it's rather a specific one: the only thing I can think of that you would "read around" is a "subject" (of study) - it means "read a variety of materials concerning the subject, probably to get a general view of it".

It may be that my answer is a particularly British-English one. The British National Corpus has five citations for "read around", three of which parse as "verb + adverb", and they all have this sense. The Corpus of Contemporary American English has twelve citations, six of which are "verb + adverb", but the specific meaning of some of them is not clear to me, and may not closely match the definition I've given above. They still refer to a variety of reading about a subject, but the purpose seems to be more varied than I would expect. --ColinFine (talk) 23:05, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

In Canada it would vary by province, as marriage is a provincially administered matter and there is no legal difference between religious and civil marriage. The most common name used for civil officiants is "marriage commissioner", but some provinces give the job to notaries or justices of the peace. In the Territories the RCMP can officiate. --NellieBly (talk) 02:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

PHYSICAL DIMENSIONS OF WATERBODIES

I would like to know where (of preference, in the web) can I find reliable data about area, volume and average depth (of course, two of the three would be enough) of all mayor waterbodies of the Earth (oceans, seas and other saline waterbodies, excludiong lakes). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.21.154.249 (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

try USGS marine.190.56.125.192 (talk) 00:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

April 4

Secret recipe formulae

In respect to the secret recipes for such popular brands as KFC or Coca Cola, how is the recipe protected if it has to be made so that they can sell it? Is it mixed by computer? What happens if the machine breaks -- I'm certain they don't call Colonel Sanders' great-grandson down to the plant to fix the machine. I'm just using these two companies as examples, but how does any company like this make sure that their secret recipe is not secret enough to prevent it from being implemented but still secret enough that, well, you and I can't find it out? DRosenbach 05:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not privy to any special information, but I think these recipes are protected in the same way as any other trade secret—i.e., many employees may have access to the information but they are under contract not to reveal it. Coke and KFC are special cases because the "secret recipe" mythos is a significant part of their brand image, so they put on a dog and pony show that's really for the sake of publicity, not secrecy. There's some information about Coke and KFC, with a few references, at snopes.com (which is generally a reliable web site). One thing they mention is that KFC's seasoning mix is made at two different factories, each with only half of the ingredients, then combined later. -- BenRG (talk) 06:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

After dog-and-pony show I was waiting for some mention of Bush's baked beans (whose ad campaign has the family dog trying to sell the secret recipe in various schemes). Rmhermen (talk) 14:43, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

A year or two ago I read an old mass-market paperback which included several "secret" recipes and other supposedly secret stuff. At the moment I've forgotten the title.

In any case for Coke etc I believe some syrup or essence is sent off to local factories, where it has the water and CO2 added, and probably sugar and other non-secret stuff. The secret thing is really just marketing hype. It would be easy to concoct a recipe which in blind tastings people either could not distinguish from coke, or which they prefered to coke. In facts there are many "cokes" available, so people have been doing that for a long time. The "secret recipe" is not what makes them their profit, its all the other business things such as marketing and especially "goodwill". 92.29.115.116 (talk) 11:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Was the book in question Big Secrets? I read it when I was a child and loved it. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

(EC)The paperback in question may have been one of the Big Secrets series by William Poundstone. One method used by companies with "secret" recipes and the like is to prepare some ingredients/components in Location 'A', some in location 'B', and then send them to location 'C' for combination and final processing: that way the employees at each of 'A' and 'B' only know only how to make their own ingredients, and those at 'C' only know how to combine the two but not how they were made. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.144 (talk) 12:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes I think the book was Big Secrets by Poundstone. 92.29.115.116 (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Both companies operate on the franchise model, which makes secrecy a lot easier to protect. KFC and Coke do not own the actual places where their final product is made and distributed. Individual KFC restaurants are independently owned and operated businesses with no connection to the parent company, so its not all that hard to believe that, despite being one of the largest restaurant chains in the world, there aren't that many people with even access to the recipe. Coke is very similar; Coca-Cola is bottled by locally owned and operated bottling plants; the Coke corporation does not own these as part of their main business, they sell the syrup to the local plants who bottle it and distribute it (I say as part of their main business; some bottling plants are owned and operated by "Coca-Cola Enterprises" which is a seperately run company from The Coca-Cola Company who makes the syrup). So again, the people who have cause to know the recipe of the syrup are actually limited. --Jayron32 11:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

IIRC with KFC there are actually (allegedly anyway) two different mixes produce at different locations which are then combined somewhere. (Similar to what 90.197 suggested.) In theory of course no one has to know the actual complete recipe/formula any more (they obviously weren't like this at the beginning) but I think some do. I believe Sony or perhaps Microsoft (or both even) allegedly do something similar with the private key for their consoles where a few people in management know part of the key and they are called up to enter it separately when needed and no one actually knows the entire key. P.S. The KFC part is discussed here . P.P.S. Our KFC#The secret recipe discusses how alleged only copies of the physical recipe are protected. It also discusses people who say they have reproduced it Nil Einne (talk) 20:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll mention parenthetically that we have an article at Coca-Cola formula, which discusses various purported recipes and ingredient lists from an assortment of sources. For someone who wishes to prepare an open-source cola beverage, we also have the GPL-licensed OpenCola. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Irn-Bru has a secret recipe and our article has some information about it. --TrogWoolley (talk) 14:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Coca-Cola has the added advantage of a secret formula that includes extract from coca leaves, which you'll need special permits to handle. So even if you had the formula you'd have a hard time bringing an exact duplicate soft drink to market. APL (talk) 15:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

There's an oft repeated story that the move to New Coke was an attempt to get away from that, but that obviously didn't work in the U.S. at least. But Coke varieties vary outside of the U.S. I was exceptionally hard pressed to ever find Coke "classic" in Europe. Is anyone aware of any European countries that have Coke Classic? Shadowjams (talk) 22:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm presuming you mean the thing sold in the US as Coke Classic (bearing in mind I don't think we have any real idea how close it is to the original taste). If so I think Coke Classic usually uses HFCS whereas it's more common to use sugar in much of Europe so the simple answer is not many, if any. Whether that's the sole reason for any taste difference you detected, I don't know. Nil Einne (talk) 06:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

"Classic" has nothing to do with sweetener. (There's a legend that New Coke was to cover the sweetener switch, but that's false, by that time they'd already made the switch.) Coke Classic can be made with a few different approved sweeteners at the discretion of the local bottling plant. HFCS and cane sugar included.

"Classic" simply indicates a return to the original formula from "New Coke"'s Coke II formula. I believe that in some regions where the Coke II formula wasn't introduced, they never switched the branding to "Classic". But

Even here in USA they seem to be phasing out the "Coke Classic" branding back to their original "Coca-Cola" branding. The bottle I'm drinking right now doesn't have the word "Classic" anywhere on it, only a logo indicating "Original Formula". APL (talk) 16:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

My point is it's not clear what ShadowJams means by "Coke Classic". My presumption is ShadowJams finds the Coke in Europe tastes different hence why they say "Coke Classic" is not available in Europe. As you say, all this new Coke/Coke classic jazz appears to have been restricted to North America so there has probably never been any Coke branded "Coke Classic" in Europe (there was never any in Malaysia anyway IIRC), again my presumption ShadowJams knows this since it's silly to look out for or ask about something that has never existed. The formula may or may not have changed over time, who knows? The reason why ShadowJams finds Coke in Europe tastes different is unclear, it may be the sweetener (some people claim it can be tested, while I'm sceptical of such claims people often 'taste' things when they know there is a difference they can't taste in a blind test) I can definitely see it making a difference so it can't be excluded. It may also be something else. As I also said, which one tastes closer to coke 30 years ago, we can't say (although in terms of sweetener in much of Europe and elsewhere it is closer). However since most or all "Coke Classic" is the stuff made in the US usually with HFCS, the stuff in Europe if it does taste different clearly doesn't taste like "Coke Classic" since "Coke Classic" was always a North? American brand and the stuff elsewhere has always just been called Coke or Coca-Cola. Nil Einne (talk) 15:47, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

ShadowJams, It's all "Coke Classic". Coke II (AKA New Coke) was finally discontinued in 2002, but it was never sold in Europe anyway.

Outside of North America they just don't call it "classic".APL (talk) 16:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

No, it's different, and that difference definitely goes beyond how one plant mixes it. Shadowjams (talk) 09:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's officially the same thing then. "Coke Classic" is just the brand name for original formula Coke-Cola, which is what is being sold as Coke's flagship product in both USA and Europe.

But like Nil Einne says, Coke Classic can be properly made with more than one sweatener. Perhaps you're detecting the difference between the HFCS used in most American bottling plants, and the white sugar used in most European bottling plants?

My local grocery store has started carrying "Mexican Coke" in their 'international foods' section. It's standard Coca-Cola bottled in Mexico with cane sugar and an American nutritional info sticker slapped over the Mexican label. You might try that to see if it tastes like the European coke you remember. In the interests of science. APL (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I met a person who ran a chemical plant in New Jersey where at least one of the Coke ingredients was made (he said it was the full recipe, though) - they have an NDA, but he said any chemist with access to modern equipment could duplicate the syrup. People in tests given one sample marked "Coke" and another marked with any other label, will insist the two have some difference in taste. If a person in the US wants genuine "Coke Classic", he should look for kosher Coke - the corn syrup is not kosher! Collect (talk) 10:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Claims that one can analyse a complexly prepared drink (or foodstuff) and duplicate it exactly should be taken with a pinch of salt (pun intended). In addition to the raw ingredients, taste is significantly influenced by the exact preparation methods and apparatus used, which determine how the complex chemicals involved (everything is chemicals, of course) interact and form new substances in various minutely varying proportions. Our senses of taste, smell and touch (mouthfeel is an often-underated factor) are quite sufficiently sensitive to detect the resulting changes: for example, it is routinely acknowledged in the UK brewing industry/drinking community that the exact same recipe performed in two different breweries with similar but not identical brewing equipment will result in two beers that can easily be distinguished. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.111 (talk) 13:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Coke does not rely on strains of yeast - which are a huge factot in differentiating beers. Collect (talk) 17:09, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Neither does coffee, but instant coffee manufacturers will move or exactly copy vessels and other equipment if they want to duplicate the instant coffee produced at a given plant: it is very hard to replicate the particular flavour and texture any other way. This is common in food manufacturing. 86.164.73.72 (talk) 19:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Fuse for wipers, 1997 Celica

The front windscreen wipers on my UK 1997 Toyota Celica have stopped working. All else seems fine. I'd like to check the fuse but am unable to locate it. The manual gives three locations for fuse boxes but is rather vague about which fuses control which circuits. I've removed the cover of the fuse box in the engine compartment which has a schematic indicating what the fuses are for (e.g. "Dome", "CDS", "RDI") but I can't relate any of these to wipers. Is there some code which is commonly used for this circuit? Am I looking in the wrong place? --Frumpo (talk) 08:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

If you don't get an answer here, you could try posting at one of the online forums for Celica users (just searching them may give the answer you require). Alternatively, a workshop manual such as the Haynes series will have full wiring diagrams. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much, I'll try asking there and, if I have some success, I'll report back here. --Frumpo (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

A Test light (see article) of the 12V kind (not the mains kind with a neon lamp) is your friend. Turn on the wipers and if you find a fuse that has 12V on one side and 0V on the other, that's the faulty one. However there can be other causes than a burnt fuse for wipers to stop working. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't have one now but will see if I can get one tomorrow. --Frumpo (talk) 15:57, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I got some useful info on one of the forums. It seems like the fuse is fine. If it wasn't, then the rear wiper and washers would also have failed. --Frumpo (talk) 10:24, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

What are the responsibilities associated to a member of Board of Studies at a university

Dear Friend,

Please let me know the various responsibilities associated with a member of board of studies at an india university.

Thanks you in advance.

Looking forward for quick response on this please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neerajgarg5 (talk • contribs) 11:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

What is this flag?

Can anyone help me to identify this flag. I admit it is not good quality but I had limited time to record it. I have searched several sites and it is not (as far as I can discover) a national flag. As can be seen it has a yellow horizontal upper third, a middle red third. and a lower yellow third. The white markings that are hidden by folds (it was a gusty day!) are a white double-headed ?eagle. Just below the centre is a small shield with a yellow background and a diagonal, top left to bottom right, stripe of red. Richard Avery (talk) 15:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't see it listed at commons:Gallery_of_triband_flags#Charged_horizontal_bicolour_triband which is how I would dresribe the style. The colors remind me of flags and coats of arms of Baden, so you could check that out... --Jayron32 15:22, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks like the flag of Baden with the coat of arms of Baden on it. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks a bit like being sold as "flag of Baden". Collect (talk) 16:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Also and . Nanonic (talk) 16:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Blimey, that was quick. Right on the button guys and ?gals. The version by Collect looks very close, but everyone has added to it. My memory put the two eagles together, but there you go. Thanks everyone. Richard Avery (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Officially they are Griffins. Collect (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Where in the world

can you please tell me where this is so i cab go. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton19821 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

According to the copyright information, you own the copyright. Where were you when you took the picture? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It's now been challenged for Copyvio, with a link to at least ten copies via Tineye. --ColinFine (talk) 21:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Here's a source for the picture: It doesn't name it, but other google images of Bora Bora make it pretty clear that's where it is. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Bora Bora, maybe? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Not to be confused with Tora Bora. Alansplodge (talk) 00:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry; yes it looks very much like this place. Alansplodge (talk) 00:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks like tsunami bait. StuRat (talk) 06:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and shark bait. If you google you'll find a lot of pics of these nifty little huts, interspersed with pics of them guys. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:31, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

If that's the Four Seasons hotel at Bora Bora (and I think it is), then, according to the web site, a stay in one of those pretty bungalows will run you around $1000 US per night. Have a lovely trip! -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:23, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

A room at the Waldorf will cost you almost half that (at the economy rate, yet) and the only sharks you're liable to run into are the two-legged variety. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:35, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

What in the world

can some one please tell me what this peice of machinery is. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton19821 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

There's a clue on the plastic crate at the bottom that bears the legend "Royal Mail". Alansplodge (talk) 23:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought so too, but the thing was COVERED in oil and grease, there is no way they would use this for letters of any sort, i thi nk thats just a random crate, a clue is that on the side of it it says Heidelberg offset. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton19821 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Aha! Then it will be one of these, or very similar; "a one-color Heidelberg offset lithography press". Alansplodge (talk) 00:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

There's one for sale here. Alansplodge (talk) 00:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

April 5

Wingsuit formation skydiving aerodynamics.

About a year or so ago, a wingsuit article I read apeared to state that winguit skydivers in formation improved each others' glide performance. I can see how that might happen. The very fact that wingsuits are so inefficient aerodynamically-wasting so much energy on wingtip vortices & induced drag- means there's a lot of energy to recover. The wtv's of meeting wingtips rotate in opposite directions, potentially cancelling out much of the swirle, thereby recovering energy for better glide performance. Unlike birds in V formation(trailers riding the updrafts of the leaders who need to use all their power)I read from a forum on HSW that wingtip to wingtip formation benefits BOTH flyers aerodynamically. For the reason I stated before, I can see how that might be. The problem is, I've since read all the wiki articles on wingsuit skydiving, & could never recover it. Is it still there? Was that part removed from the article be cause it was shown to be in error?

Old edits still exist. Why not go to Wingsuit and select "Page history" from the navigation menus (Its by "Edit this page") and look at some of the older ones. When you find he text you can track when it was removed and read the comment as to why. -- SGBailey (talk) 05:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Enquiry

Palm production

I have a project with me on palm production and is using your medium to find a sponsor.You can write to me on <email removed>. Good day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.202.194.50 (talk) 13:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I have removed your email address, but I am otherwise unable to parse your sentance. Could you restate your question in more detail, so we can help you find an answer? --Jayron32 13:04, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I added a more useful subtitle. StuRat (talk) 16:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The OP geolocates to Cameroon. It is possible that s/he is a French speaker, as "Good day" (ignoring Down Under) is a verbatim translation of Bon jour. Maybe a French speaker can (laterally thinking) guess what "palm production" may mean. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:54, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps growing some kind of palm tree (oil palm perhaps?) Nil Einne (talk) 18:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages is probably not the best place to try and find sponsorship for anything much. --ColinFine (talk) 18:16, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Help identifying a bike

Can anyone help ID this bike: http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/SotonskaTamburica/Igor/Untitled.jpg ? Thanks. Melmann 14:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not a bike, it's a motorcycle. 92.24.184.244 (talk) 17:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Motorcycles are sometimes referred to as "motorbikes", which can be shortened to "bike". Indeed, the disambiguation page for bike, if you don't pipe, says that: "Bike may refer to: The abbreviation for either bicycle or motorcycle". Similarly for the lead sentence for motorcycle "A motorcycle (also called a motorbike, bike, or cycle) ..." -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 20:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Our society is gloriously enhanced by "bikie gangs", not "motorcyclie gangs". -- Jack of Oz 20:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I notice that the term "bikie gang" is not mentioned on that page and bikie occurs only in a footnote. Perhaps Jack could expand that article a bit. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 20:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

You mean from my vast personal experience of these ... organisations? Oh no, that would break our WP:OR rules.  :) -- Jack of Oz 20:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Calling a motorcycle a "bike" seems very girlie-man to me. But if that's your preference, go ahead. 92.24.188.223 (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It is a second geneartion (2005+)Yamaha FZ1. In the US saying "bike" is more common in regular conversation especially if it is already clear that you aren't talking about something with pedals. --Daniel 21:47, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

In the US, the term Biker is commonly used for "motorcyclist". The term "motorcyclist" would probably be considered the "girlie-man" term. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:13, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Same in the UK. Those who ride pedal cycles are called cyclists, though both refer to their machines as bikes. Dbfirs 16:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec)My understanding is that groups such as the Hells Angels will refer to themselves as "bikers", and will refer to their ride as a "bike". If you want to call them "girlie-men" because of it, it's your choice - although for your health, I wouldn't recommend doing so where they could overhear. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 00:15, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The yearly gatherings across the US (and notably Daytona Beach) are called "Bike Week." Calling it "Motorcycle Week" will get you laughed out of town. Collect (talk) 10:31, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

looks like a 4 cylinder transverse engine, not very clear. don't know much about modern bikes. I'm thinking 'one off' garage built. not production. looks good though. Not all bikers are criminals. Those that are criminals all have psychological identity problems. Why would someone join a group to demonstrate their individuality. Sounds definitely counterintuitive. Everyone seems to have gotten off the subject.190.149.154.160 (talk) 02:15, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The UK-based IP made a couple of ignorance-based comments, and they needed some correction. Hopefully he gets it now. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

FW my OR IW; though not a motorcycle rider myself, I have socialised with many such in the UK. Amongst those I have encountered, "bike" and "biker" were by far the most usual terms. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.111 (talk) 20:25, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

What was there to see in Philippi during the time of Paul ?

I need this information for a book I'm writing... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faithful365 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Did you read the Misplaced Pages article Philippi? --Jayron32 15:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

As the linked article says, Philippi was a prosperous colony of Rome and Paul would surely have seen an abundance of soldiers, colonists and slaves, and there would have been entertainments in the games arena. The temples to the Greek gods would be popular with Greeks and Romans alike since the latter to a large extent adopted and renamed Greek gods. I have written fiction set in Greece a little later when there was a Metropolitan bishop at Athens with influence extending to Meteora and christianity was still an early movement emanating from Paul's ministry. Feel free to e-mail me via my page if you wish to share more ideas for fiction in this setting. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

1888 book confusion

What does Mr. Shepard mean when he says There was no prescribed term of office, the commission running until the opposition party secured the council of appointment.? What council of appointment? Does Council of Appointment have any relevance here, or is that just a coincidence? Albacore (talk) 20:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

April 6

Wonderwall Cover on BBC3 documentary 'My brother the Islamist'

Hi, could you please tell me who the cover version of oasis' 'Wonderwall' is featured in the background of the BBC3 program 'My brother the Islamist' which was on TV on Monday 4th April?

Thanks in advance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.157.179.249 (talk) 07:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

If there is a 10 second section when there is no one talking over it, then try watching the program on iPlayer, and then phone 2580 (Shazam) on your mobile. Make sure that your phone doesn't cause your computer's speakers to click. CS Miller (talk) 08:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe it was the version by Ryan Adams, which I'm sure you can find on YouTube to check. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Area of an irregular shape

How does one calculate the area of an irregular shape such as a country? Note, I am posting this on the miscellaneous desk rather than the mathematics desk because I would like the answer to be comprehensible to a non-mathematician. And I don't trust the pointy-heads over there to be able to do that. Thanks very much, --Viennese Waltz 07:58, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I googled and many entries came up, of which this was the first: www.ehow.com/how_4924590_calculate-area-piece-land.html, which for some reason is being kicked out by the spam filter, so beware. I don't know if it's the definitive answer, but it squares with what I've heard in the past, namely that they slice it up into simple geomtric shapes and figure out the area of each piece and add them up. In effect, the end result is a calculated estimate. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The reason is that eHow is accused of being a low-quality, SEO-driven "content mill": eHow#Criticisms. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:40, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

See also planimeter. My grandfather owned one, and I thought it was one of the coolest mechanical instruments ever. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:22, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Neat. That, of course, assumes that the map was drawn correctly. But it's a nifty invention. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:39, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Surveying seemed like it would be a logical place to look, but there isn't much there about figuring land areas. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:42, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Surveyors divide the land up into lots of triangles and add together the area of each.--Shantavira| 11:18, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

You cut up the area into lots of small shapes whose areas you can calculate directly (typically triangles or rectangles), then add up all the little areas. This is what integral calculus is all about. If you don't want to learn calculus, use a planimeter or a computer program to do it. Staecker (talk) 12:51, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

While it is possible to think of the area of a shape in terms of integral calculus (and comfortable for someone familiar with calculus to do so), I suspect that "learn calculus" as a strategy for solving this particular problem is more than a bit of overkill. For arbitrary shapes (like geographical regions) there is rarely a convenient mathematical function describing the perimeter of the area in question. We must therefore fall back on numerical integration methods anyway, which – as Staecker says – is just "cut up the area into lots of small shapes whose areas you can calculate directly". (See also the trapezoidal rule.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:38, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

True mathematicians will cringe at this, but the way integral calculus is done is by cutting up the region under a curve into an infinite number of infinitely small rectangles and adding up their areas. The methods described here are using the same idea. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Integral calculus depends on there being an analytic expression which describes the size of the infinitesimal small rectangles, however. This is of limited use when dealing with irregularly- or arbitrarily-shaped objects whose form is not described by a mathematical function, which leads us to fall back on numerical methods. 192.75.165.28 (talk) 19:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Hence the Trapezoidal rule that TOAT pointed out. It implies the basic problem with the measuring of bodies of land (or water), in that they are typically "round" and we want "square". So it has to be computed by creating squares, rectangles, triangles, etc. - which is the high-level basic idea of integral calculus, except that, as you note, it's hard to come up with a mathematical function that equates to a rugged shoreline. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I suppose I meant something like "numerical methods from calculus", since those are the most likely to be useful for this purpose. You don't really have to know much (any?) calculus to perform the trapezoid rule. You don't even have to know much calculus to INVENT the trapezoid rule! Staecker (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

An analog way of calculating the area of an irregular shape is to trace it onto a piece of paper or cardboard, cut out the shape, weigh it on a sensitive balance, and compare it to the weight of rectangle of known area. Edison (talk) 15:11, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The 'analog' way above works (done it myself, then checked by the triangle method later), but this presupposes that the map is correct - and this will depend on the projection used. If you are trying to determine the area of Lichtenstein this isn't going to matter much, but could be problematic with say Russia. Sadly, if you want great accuracy, you will probably have to find a mathematician who can calculate the area of an irregularly-shaped section of an irregular oblate spheroid. Or look it up, and hope the answer given is right... AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I was about to make the same point about the planimeter method - it's fine for an approximate answer, but it's measuring the area of the map, not the area of the country. The only really accurate method is surveying - which is, of course, how the maps were constructed in the first place. I'll go back and join my fellow pointy-heads on RD/MA. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Sites like this will do world map areas "for you" although putting in the points is some work, and the projection appears to have been taken into account. But I think it works on some fairly complex mathematics, hence the word "great circle" cropping up. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm no mathematician myself, but I think that fractals mean that technically, it's not possible to measure them. Mind you, round here, that'd be known as a "punch in the mouth answer", as that's what it seems to be requesting. --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

No. A perimeter such as a coastline can be fractal which means its length is indeterminate but the area enclosed is finite. Nations that share a natural border may therefore agree on their respective areas but disagree on the length of the common border. Vulgar terms such a "pointy-head" and "punch in the mouth" are regrettable and uncalled for here. Please be civil. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

If area is length x width, as soon as length is infinite, surely area is too? Like I said, I'm no mathematician, but... and I suggest you strike the comment... Your comment is apparently addressed to me and I've not used the term "pointy-head". Furthermore, if you reread what I wrote, I said it was a punch in the mouth answer, ie I should be punched in the mouth. As this page is not part of the encyclopedia, there is no problem with use of what you call a "vulgar term", as it is perfectly civil. If self-deprecation isn't permitted any more, then I give up.--Dweller (talk) 15:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Dweller, see Koch Snowflake for an example of an infinite perimeter enclosing a finite area. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Fascinating. So, one can prove that the area is finite (it shouldn't have changed, as I understand it) --Dweller (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Better yet, see Sierpinski triangle for an infinite perimeter enclosing exactly zero area. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The published areas are calculated by surveying triangulation and geoid trigonometry (no calculus needed), but they bear little relation to the "real" area because they reduce all slopes to a projection onto the "horizontal" geoid at sea level. Where individual areas are measured on a significant slope, the total of the individual areas of separate fields, gardens, roads etc. will far exceed the theoretical "map" area. Real areas need to be used for calculating how much tarmac is needed for roads, or how much fertiliser for fields, but otherwise the geoid projection area seems to be universally used as if no land rose above sea level. Dbfirs 16:12, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

April 7

sco.wikipedia.org

What the fuck is this site? --Reference Desker (talk) 03:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Could we try to keep the Reference Desk PG please? Kingsfold (Quack quack!) 18:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The Scots language version of Misplaced Pages. All the language versions are listed at meta:List of Wikipedias. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:35, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I like it! How's this for a definition: "Lingueestic Anthropology - The study o whit wey fowk speaks an the wirds they uise an hou their languge developit". (and don't you just love the note at the bottom of the page: "This page wis hindermaist chynged 23:44, 24 Februar 2008"). I'm ga'en bak te ma roots. (on my maternal grandmothers side anyway...) AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah, this is an appropriate use of the reference desk: to pick on the language and culture of others. --Jayron32 04:06, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Whoops, I didn't understand it is another real Misplaced Pages project, I thought someone is faking Misplaced Pages. --Reference Desker (talk) 04:18, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Jayron32, I'm not 'picking on it' - I think it needs appreciation for what it is, an assertion of cultural diversity in an English-dominated environment. I suspect there is a tongue-in-cheek element to the Wiki, but humour has always been a major weapon in the armoury of the more clued-up subversives. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:20, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Trunuff. Its just that we need to be careful of how we present ourselves. Real speakers of the Scots language may not appreciate being derided in this manner. Now speakers of the Klingon language (which once had its own Misplaced Pages, no shit, and had a character in the Misplaced Pages logoball!), there's a group that clearly needs have its chops busted... --Jayron32 04:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Imagine a Misplaced Pages where every article is basically the same, but rendered in the (Aberdeen) pronunciation of Scotty on Startrek! If one examines the poetry written by King James I of England (King James VI or so of Scotland) his phonetic spellings are much like this Scot 'pedia. Could there also be a PiratePedia with extra r's, like Long John Silverrrr? Edison (talk) 04:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who just wants to make fun of Scottish pronunciation should keep oot of that site. StuRat (talk) 05:28, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

If they keep oot of that site, how will they become successfu editors and write a weel known encyclopedia? --Reference Desker (talk) 06:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Robin Williams doing a bit on golf and Scotsmen. Caution: Do not play at work. More F's than you can count. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:58, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

What the ... !? --Reference Desker (talk) 09:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Why can't we have a Yorkshire wikipedia (or any other pronunciation variation for that matter)? The reason the Scots get their own (semi-joke) version is that they persuaded Europe to recognise their pronunciation of English as a separate language, but very few of them actually use the eye-dialect spelling. It's an old argument, and not worth the hassle of engaging. Dbfirs 16:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not just pronunciation. Scots preserves far more Old English words in its vocabulary than modern English does. --Carnildo (talk) 23:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Macedonia / BSEC membership

Why was Macedonia (dreadfully inaccurate article BTW) completely left out of Black Sea Economic Cooperation BSEC. It is not an observer of any sort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.89.16.154 (talk) 17:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

That links to a disambiguation page, listing quite a few other articles. Is the disambiguation page the target of your comment? If not, which page are you asking about? -- Jack of Oz 19:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, when I go to what appears to be the official BSEC site and look at its list of member states THEY don't list Macedonia as a member. Is the official BSEC site also "dreadfully inaccurate?" Or is this a stealth site pretending to be the official BSEC site. I'm on it. --Quartermaster (talk) 22:21, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Macedonia ain't on the Black Sea. DuncanHill (talk) 23:02, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Neither are Serbia, Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, or Greece. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 23:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

They are on water, though (except Armenia). I found some blurb in google about Macedonia having put in for membership... in 1999. Looks like it takes awhile. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:30, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

It looks like Macedonia was invited to join as a result of the Yerevan conference in 2003 but never responded. This from the Greek MFA notes that the invitation was sent "under its UN-recognised name" so maybe that was the problem. --JGGardiner (talk) 23:37, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

OP here different PC, allow me to clarrify, The articles on Macedonian people and republic of Macedonia are dreadfully inaccurate, offensive, racist, and historically incorrect. If the greeks sent the invitation under the wrong name FYROM then well done to the Macedonians on not responding at all!!! Serbia, Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Greece are not on the Black sea either and so this propted my question, as if one looks at the map of BSEC states, my Macedonian friends are a blank spot in the middle of an ocean of orange. To further my previous point, the articles previously mentioned are so offensive and wrong, that I am not willing to edit them. e.g. Macedonians identity started to develop in the 19th century?! No Macedonians have been Macedonians sine before Alexander the Great, a Macedonian. Citation not needed as all one needs to do is ask one of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton19821 (talk • contribs) 01:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You aren't the only one to think that the Macedonia articles are "wrong". See WP:ARBMAC and WP:ARBMAC2. While you are free to disagree with how the articles are structured, this is the consensus that has emerged after a very long and painful struggle over how these articles are to be written. Please realize that these articles are some of the most carefully written and watched articles on the site. A lot of thought has gone into them, to insure that no one is happy with the result. That's only fair, right? Buddy431 (talk) 01:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, we have a page dedicated to laying out how things related to any of the four Macedonias (the region, the country, the Greek province, and the historical kingdom): see WP:MOSMAC. Buddy431 (talk) 01:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

April 8

Airport questions

Been a lot of questions about airports/flying lately so I'll add one I pondered while on a recent trip. First off, I hate flying, to the extent (and much to my wife's dismay) that whenever driving is feasible I'll opt for that. BUT, I find airports fascinating for the "people watching" aspect. It's a fascinating mix of people from different parts of the world all crammed into a high stress environment...like a big social experiment. Anyway, these days you have to have a ticket to get inside the terminal, so going there to just hang-out or shop/eat, whatever, is not allowed. But was that always the case, i.e. pre-911 did you need a ticket to access the terminal? Also, do employees of the airport that access the terminal for their jobs (but are not flying), have to go through security as well? And what is up with the private lounges for frequent flyers? What is the criteria for getting into one? Can I join even though I don't fly much? And what goes on in there? Quinn 17:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the airport employees working in the terminals are screened each time they enter. This has been raised as a serious security vulnerability by some commentators: Qrsdogg (talk) 17:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Before the 9-11 changes, anyone was allowed to go through security and right up to the gate. I served a two-year mission in Spain for the LDS Church, and when I departed from Salt Lake International, almost my whole family was there at the gate to see me off. Incidentally, they were almost all there again when I returned. Also, there was an episode of Seinfeld where George and Kramer are picking up Jerry at the airport, and they stop at the Duty-free shop. (They sing a cute little song: "I love to stop at the duty-free shop....")

I would hope airport employees have to go through security. If not, what would prevent them from sneaking <<insert dangerous item here>> onto an airplane by giving it to a friend? Ugh.

A little reading on Delta Sky Club, for example, might answer your last question. Basically it's a place to relax and refresh, have a snack and a beverage, and make some calls or check some e-mails. Kingsfold (Quack quack!) 18:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You can't buy duty free if you aren't travelling - that's why they check your boarding pass when you buy something. --Tango (talk) 18:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

To answer your unanswered questions in order: There was a time, before the 1980s, when non-passengers had easy access to airport gates. My family used to meet relatives at the gate when they came to see us by plane. During the 1980s, airports began to limit access past security to passengers only. This was the rule in many European countries at that time. This became the rule after 2001 in the United States as well. Private lounges at airports are not for frequent flyers but for airline club members. See this article. Club membership criteria depend on the airline. Many airlines allow you to purchase membership even if you don't fly often or even if you fly coach. Other airlines restrict access to first-class or business-class passengers. The lounges are just more comfortable places to wait for your flight, with some complimentary alcohol and wi-fi. I've never been inside one of these lounges, but I suspect they are mainly occupied by corporate executives doing business on their laptops and cell (mobile) phones or perhaps relaxing with a cocktail with a colleague. Marco polo (talk) 18:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The people who work at the airport get to participate in the security theater. Googlemeister (talk) 18:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I remember when my dad lived overseas in the 90's and when my sister and I went to visit he would come through security with my sister and I to see us safely to the gate (we were too young to go through on our own). He needed a special pass from check-in, though. I don't think they even let you do that now. I'm pretty sure staff go through security. I remember one of the staff members at security having to go out of the secure side in order to grab a child that had run through and even he had to take his jacket off, put it and all the metal items in his pockets through the x-ray and then go through the arch in order to get back to his post. --Tango (talk) 18:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

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