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"Whites" and "Blacks" or "whites" and "blacks"

The APA report as well as the US census prefer the first alternative (see Race and ethnicity in the United States Census). In the literature it seems that hereditarians often prefer the first alternative while all-environmentalists often prefer the second alternative. Are there any WP guidelines? I do not feel strongly about either alternative but the article should be consistent.Miradre (talk) 16:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think both should be lowercase.--Victor Chmara (talk) 16:41, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages tends to not stick in capitals where they're not needed, Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (capital letters), (yes there's a whole big page about it!) Dmcq (talk) 12:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

problems with the current version

Because I am of limited time, I will attempt to go through the article section by section. Many of the problems I'm listing are WP:POV issues, but some of them are not. I will go over the lede today, but I make no claim that I have found all the issues.

• the debate over r/i has been ongoing for hundreds of years
• the debate over r/i encompasses more than test scores
• the lede reads as if the competing viewpoints are the primary meat of the topic
• the hereditarian position is misstated
• researchers from minority viewpoint are presented more prominantly than the generally accepted viewpoint
• the main conclusion of the APA report is misrepresented

As time permits, I will go over more sections. I will be happy to discuss any of the issues above as long the discussion continues to be productive. aprock (talk) 01:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree especially with the fact that the historical context of the topic is still inadequately treated. Miradre inserted an oblique reference to "colonialism and genocide" and stated that that fixed the issue- it doesn't - what is required is contextualization. I also agree that minority viewpoints such as Lynn, Rushton and Jensen are giving much more weight than the prominence of their views in a greater context merits. The article also leaves out all of the social science research that has approached the topic of race disparities in education from other angles than IQ tests. It also leaves out most of the literature written from environmentalist viewpoints except Nisbett and Flynn. Scholars such as Marks, Fishman, Alland Jr., Sternberg, Jencks, Smedley, and several others are hardly included. The focus is much too narrowly on the particular topic that interests hereditarians - while the actual topic is much larger. ·Maunus·ƛ· 02:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• APA is claimed to be misrepresented how. How?
• The debate is about more than test scores. The article is about more than test scores, is it anything specific you are missing?
• The hereditarian position is misstated. How?
• Viewpoints are missing. Which?
• There is little history. It may already be too much according to MOS considering we have a whole subarticle.
• Relevant research is claimed to be missing. Impossible to verify unless sources and arguments are given.
• Claims about what is the minority viewpoint is unsourced. According to the only poll of experts ever done so is the hereditarian viewpoint the majority one (The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book))

So to summarize, generally very unclear and often unsourced claims. Be specific and give sources for claims.Miradre (talk) 03:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

If you're interested in looking at specific sources, I would suggest starting with the APA report to be sure that you are properly summarizing the main points of the report. The description in the lead reads nothing like the introduction or main conclusions of the report. If you would like to defend the content you've created with specific sources, you are welcome to. After I've gone through every section, I will invest some time into researching sources for the article. aprock (talk) 03:16, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly what is wrong with the summary? Again, be specific. Saying that something is wrong without explaining why is unverifiable and not constructive. Regarding sources so is the article full of sources.Miradre (talk) 03:25, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Please go back and reread the Preface, and section 6, "Summary and Conclusions". What you'll find there looks nothing what is presented in the lede here. aprock (talk)

Obviously we cannot copy word for word due to copyright. Apart from that, exactly are you arguing to be incorrect or pov? Miradre (talk) 03:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The summary of the APA report in the lede does not concord with the summary in the APA report. aprock (talk) 03:43, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you have already stated that you think that the APA report is misrepresented. Claiming something is wrong without explaining how is not constructive. Please state how the report is misrepresented.Miradre (talk) 03:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll state at this moment in time that I have no real desire to spend unbounded energy trying to convince you of things which are obvious. If you read the preface and summary, it should be clear that there is a discord between the APA report and what is in the lede. The lede represents the conclusions of the report by incorrectly paraphrasing one of seven open questions presented in the conclusion. I'm not advocating for any specific change to the article at this point in time, I'm just noting problems as I read through sections. aprock (talk) 03:43, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Why is the paraphrasing wrong? If you have no concrete objections, then there is no reason for the tag.Miradre (talk) 03:57, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I've already listed the concrete objections. At this point I'm going to disengage. I have no desire to endlessly repeat things. If you don't find the objections concrete enough for your liking, it appears there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise. aprock (talk) 04:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The list has been answered to. Simply stating that something is wrong without explaining why is not constructive. Furthermore, if you have complaints about a specific sentence or section, then it is that which should be tagged and not the whole article.Miradre (talk) 10:37, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you have dismissed all of the problems I raised. The one specific problem I brought up with respect to the APA summary was also dismissed. I'm afraid that your dismissal of both general and specific problems does not resolve the problems. When I have more time, I will go over the next section of the article. aprock (talk) 16:30, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

So how can the claimed problem with the summary of the APA be resolved? There is supposed to be "incorrectly paraphrasing" but what is incorrect has never been explained. That is not constructive.Miradre (talk) 17:51, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

How can it be resolved? By making the content conform to the source. If you would like to do that be my guest. As I said above, when I'm done review the article for problems, I will start going through sources. After I've done some review on sources I'll start making constructive edits to improve the article. But you are certainly not bound by my time constraints. If you wish to improve any problems which I discuss, you are free to do so. aprock (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute: "If you come across an article whose content does not seem to be consistent with Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy, use one of the tags below to mark the article's main page. Then, on the article's talk page, make a new section entitled "NPOV dispute ". Then, under this new section, clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why. Make some suggestions as to how one can improve the article. Miradre (talk) 17:52, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for quoting the NPOV policy for me. I am working on doing what the policy suggests. I apologize if I don't have the time budget to do things as fast as you would like. But please be patient, and keep in mind that there is no WP:DEADLINE. aprock (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The policy does not state that you can add a tag and then wait for days before adding an explanation. Miradre (talk) 19:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I was not the one who added the tag. aprock (talk) 21:52, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Adding back a tag is the same as adding back a removed sentence. That someone else once may added material to an article does not mean that any other person may restore that material without explaining why.Miradre (talk) 20:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your asking here. As noted above, I am raising the NPOV concerns. If you have some sort of policy problem with the way that I am raising concerns, it might be better at this point to bring your concerns to the appropriate noticeboard. aprock (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Here are some explanation of where the article is POV and some concrete suggestions on how to improve the article: The entire article is constructed in a way that gives undue weight to a particular viewpoint that is clearly in the minority. The proponents of that viepoint themselves acknowledge in all of their writings that they are in the minority - they even claim to be persecuted and denied access to publish because the majority opinion disfavours their view. The article makes it not only seem as if the issue of race and intelligence is mostly a question of answering the question of what causes the racial IQ gap, but it also very consistently privileges arguments for and against a hereditarian viewpoint, but does not explore at all the various mainstream explanations of the cause of the gap. Mainstream viewpoint is that the gap is caused by social and environmental factors. Jensen. Rushton and Lynn acknowledge that this is the mainstream viewpoint, they argue that the mainstream viewpoint is not supported by fact but is politically motivated. Even if this is the case it does not mean that it is not the majority viewpoint. The article should describe the topic with due weight to the majority viewpoint and it doesn't. The article can be improved by restructuring the article so that it describes the controversy not as a debate between equally weighted viewpoints but as a minority viewpoint that is arguing against a majority view. This includes including much better explanations of all of the studies that have documented correlations between social, cultural and economic factors and intelligence. It also includes providing a much better explanation of the reasoning behind the reluctance of a majority (the politically correct majority) to accept the arguments of the minority group - in order to explain this reasoning it is crucial to provide ample political and historical context - not simply a list of publications about the topic since 1960.·Maunus·ƛ· 18:16, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

That some hereditarians claim to be persecuted by the larger society does not mean that professional scholars on IQ also disagree. As noted, the only poll on IQ experts found that the partial genetic explanation was the majority one. (The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book)) If there are arguments missing, please add them. An unsourced claim that something is missing is not evidence for that this is the case.Miradre (talk) 18:27, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The majority of professional scholars of IQ is not the majority perspective that should determine the weight of the article. It is the majority of scholars in all of the fields and of the general public. So yes the fact that the hereditarians claim to be persecuted does strongly suggest that they realize that their ideas are not shared by a majority of their colleagues or by the general public. The Rothman/Snyder study studies only a very small subsection of the professionals working with race and intelligence and it is not even claiming to be representing the general public. You cannot ask for specific criticism and then proceed to dismiss them like this. When several editors agree that there is a fundamental problem here - you simply need to take into account that there might be something about it, and try to see how the problem can be satisfactorily solved and consensus can be generated. Simply dismissing opposing views is not the right way to go about it.·Maunus·ƛ· 18:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

If you have evidence for what most scholars in all fields think on the issue, or what the general public think, then please include that with sources. That some hereditarians claim to have been persecuted in some cases is not evidence for what the rest of the world think.Miradre (talk) 18:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The claim that the non-hereditarian view is the mainstream one while the hereditarian view is a minority one has been put forth numerous times in R&I discussions at Misplaced Pages, and I have several times asked for sources to back the claim up, never getting any replies. If you want to make that claim, you need reliable sources to support it. The mere fact that some editors think that some particular viewpoint is mainstream is irrelevant unless they can prove it with reliable sources.

My reading suggests that at least publicly, the mainstream scientific position in the R&I debate is that of agnosticism. For example, Earl B. Hunt writes in his new book that "Plausible cases can be made for both genetic and environmental contributions to differences in intelligence. The evidence required to quantify the relative sizes of these contributions to group differences is lacking... Denials or overly precise statements on either the pro-genetic or pro-environmental side do not move the debate forward." (p. 436)

The fact that hereditarian scholars have been ostracised and mistreated in the academic community (and this is something even the anti-hereditarian camp admits -- see Williams & Ceci in Nature's 2009 race & intelligence debate) does not mean that the anti-hereditarian view is the mainstream one. It's naive and idealistic to think that scientists get ostracised by their colleagues only for purely scientific reasons, particularly when said scientists are publishing research findings that powerful political interest groups both within and outside of the academy find highly inconvenient.

Note also that despite the attacks against them, leading hereditarian researchers all have impressive publishing records in peer-reviewed journals. This suggests that most journal reviewers and editors are not opposed to their research program. The Snyderman & Rothman survey (which certainly did NOT survey "only a very small subsection of the professionals working with race and intelligence", but rather was large and representative -- it's not like there are thousands of people who are experts in the topic) showed that the extreme environmentalist view had relatively few supporters among experts. The fact that the small group of anti-hereditarian IQ scholars has sometimes managed to portray their views as mainstream in the media indicates that they are determined, hardworking, well-connected, and unscrupulous, but it does NOT mean that their views are widely supported among IQ experts. They have of course been aided in their quest by the fact that most hereditarian scholars have been missing in action in the public debate, preferring to keep their politically incorrect views private -- note that even someone like Eysenck was surprised by the results of the Snyderman & Rothman survey. Maunus, where have Jensen, Rushton, and Lynn said that anti-hereditarianism is mainstream in IQ research?--Victor Chmara (talk) 20:18, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The Snyderman/Rothman study covers only psychologists a small subsection of those who work with the topics of race and intelligence - namely the subsection that has some level of expertise in intelligence, but little expertise in the topic of race, genetics, cultural and social influences on educational outcome. The hereditarian viewpoint is not a fringe viewpoint that is probably true but it is not the one that guides educational policies, it is not a viewpoint that anyone interested in winning a seat in government would be caught holding. This quite obviously suggests that the viewpoint is not held bya majority of the general public. My main point in the above is not to say that the article should weigh the hereditarian side as a fringe viewpoint it is to protest over the fact that it only describes the environementalist, mainstream viewpoint as it responds to hereditarian arguments, but does not at all try to convey the arguments that are particular for the enviromentalist side. Having read the article one would have no way of knowing that the environmentalist side has arguments that it has not produced simply as answers to hereditarians. It does not show the vast amount of research that shows that biases in the educational system severly hampers educational outcomes for socially marginalized groups all over the world, or the degree to which even "culturally unbiased" IQ tests rely on and are influenced by literacy levels. (you may have hereditarian counterpoints to thgese arguments but that is irrelevant the point is that they are not being presented in accordance with their prominence in the social sciences or in the general public - but actually are not considered at all). The article is written totally on the premise of the hereditarian viewpoint. Whether or not that viewpoint is a small or a large minority, that is wrong and not NPOV.·Maunus·ƛ· 21:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

My impression is that in for example Japan is would be political suicide to not consider public opinion on race and intelligence when considering for example immigration issues. What the public and politicians may or may not think likely varies worldwide. Regardless, unless someone has sources, this is not verifiable and reliable for WP purposes. If there are scholarly arguments missing, then please add that to the article with sources. However, an unproven claim that there is something missing is not a good reason for a NPOV tag. Misplaced Pages is built on reliable sources, not unproven claims.Miradre (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry but no one has put you in charge of determining what is a good reason for an NPOV tag and what isn't.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:01, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I am following policy. Misplaced Pages is built on reliable sources. Not unverifiable claims. If there are arguments missing, then you should state what with sources. Why did you remove Diamond's famous book which he explicitly wrote in order to disprove claims that innate racial abilities were behind differences in achievement between different parts of the world? Miradre (talk) 00:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I see you wrote "remove diamond - he is not talking about intelligence and race but of "civilization" achievements". That is incorrect, he talks about the research on IQ and races on page 20 for example.Miradre (talk) 01:12, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't have much respect for the way that you apply policy, you apply the letter a lot but not the spirit. I removed diamond's book because the short section didn't put the books argument into the context of race and intelligence, but instead discussed how geography has influenced historical processes. I do't disagree that it might be an idea to include it, but not in a section that is professing to give environmentalist explanations of the racial iq gap. If Diamond does discuss research in race and intelligence then the section should describe that not why the chinese build a great wall and the zulu only small walls. If you want to include it again I won't remove it again.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I added it back to a more relevant section. Regarding policy, it is there for a reason. Many people have opinions that they may feel strongly about and think are right but have little objective support. Which is why good sources for claims are required in WP. That is also why why editing Misplaced Pages may be helpful. I have several times realized that my opinions were not based on facts and have then changed them in accordance with what the evidence shows.Miradre (talk) 20:08, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Am I right in thinking that most of the discussion above is rather like the Global warming one where a lot of the public and politicians and newspapers say what a load of rubbish it is and yet the scientists overwhelmingly say it is true? I guess the questions here are a lot less clearcut but it is pretty clear in WP:WEIGHT that scientific papers should in general be given higher weight, but that public controversies should also be properly discussed. The global warming one sidesteps the problem slightly by having a separate Global warming controversy article. In a single article like this both the science weight and the public policy weight would need to be discussed and I think probably they need to be separated to some extent rather than trying to achieve a combined weight. Dmcq (talk) 12:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't really recognize your summary of the global warming issue - and also there isn't a similarity. This is a small clique of scientists espousing a certain hypothesis whith and also small (but still larger) group of other scientists arguing against them, and most scientists ignoring the issue completely for various reasons, one of them being that it is a "politically incorrect topic" and another probably being that many of them don't think the hereditarian position is sufficiently wellsupported to even merit a response. The weight problem here is that the topic is described from the premise of the minority viewpoint (I am not saying fringe because it is obviously a bigger minority than that). To give you a feeling of the weighting you should understand that there are two core fields involved - psychology has expertise on intelligence anthropology on race. The people who argue the hereditarian explanation are psychologists, within psychology only a small group of people do IQ testing, among IQ testers only a small group do racial differences. One study suggests that there is a slight majority of psychologists that secretly believe the hereditarian position to be true, but are afriad to say so. American Psychological Association has published a statement 15 years ago saying that there is not enough evidence to decide. On the other hand within anthropology the anthropological association is very vocal in denouncing the validity of the concept of race, and are very vocal that social inequality is caused by political and historical processes not by inherent differences, and that the IQ gap is a social phenomenon not a biological one - form an anthropological standpoint it doesn't even make sense to investigate it as a possibly biological phenomenon. This is an entire branch that is rejecting the hereditarian view as baseless. Meanwhile we don't see any policy makers making IQ based policies to mend social inequality, and race based policies are quickly going out of fashion. This clearly suggests that other fields also do not subscribe to the hereditarian view (although admittedly they probably have little expertise on the issue).·Maunus·ƛ· 12:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

What anthropologists think about the validity of the term race is not relevant, per se, because they are often talking about a specific understanding of the term (e.g. race qua subsspecies). More germane to the issue would be what anthropologists think about the possibility of socially significant genetically mediated differences between socially defined ethnoracial groups. In this regards, we can juxtapose the no genetic difference view of some anthropologists (and sociologists) with the contrary view now dominant in the medical sciences. The view that there are socially significant genetically mediated differences between ethnoracial groups is in no way a minority view. The question then is what is the status of the view that there are socially significant behavior differences. The fields of investigation are sociology, anthropology, psychology, and related fields such as cultural neuroscience. You seem to maintain that the no-differences view is the dominant one across these fields. I can't speak for

sociology and anthropology, but in psychology there is neither consensus nor mainstream opinion one way or the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.235.88 (talk) 17:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The only poll done of IQ experts, which showed that the hereditarian position was the dominant view, is rather old so what researchers in this area think currently is unclear. The debate is not helped by the fact that a Nobel prize winner and discoverer of DNA was essentially fired and forced to make a public apology for stating that one explanation for poverty in Africa is a low average intelligence (not even stating that this was related to genetic causes). Regarding anthropology so is the rejection of the existence of race a US position, in other nations race is accepted as valid in anthropology. Even in the US fields such as anatomy accept that races exist. Regarding the public and politicians, in for example East Asian nations views that races differ are widespread and affect public policy such as immigration policy.Miradre (talk) 13:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

That prominent persons can loose their jobs for making a statement of opinion is usually a good indeicator that the general public does not favour that particular opinion.·Maunus·ƛ· 22:20, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Only in the US. In Japan the opposite applies.Miradre (talk) 22:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Could you provide a source that suggests that Japanese scholars have lost their public supprt for denying the existence of race or the hereditarian explanation of the R&I gap? Misplaced Pages works by citing sources you know. ·Maunus·ƛ· 22:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I will just note that public opinion in Japan is different which affects policy. Here is one example: .Miradre (talk) 22:41, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, thats anecdotal evidence at best (and it doesn't adress R& I at all). I will note that Japan is part of UNESCO and has never expressed any disagreement with UNESCO's statements on race since 1950. (only one member has - South Africa which left UNESCo from 1956 to 1994 ) ·Maunus·ƛ· 23:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

My point being that you cannot make assumptions from the US to the rest of the world. This applies anthropologists as well as public opinion.Miradre (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Last time I checked UNESCO wasn't an local organization of the US. Nor does one exception show that the UNESCO view is not mainstream.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:39, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Including that immigrants should return home and help build up their nations?Miradre (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can tell that link has to do with intelligence or the hereditarian viewpoint on IQ. aprock (talk) 23:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Which I did not state. The link support that race is politically different in Japan.Miradre (talk) 23:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. That has nothing to do with this article though. It seems like you are confusing your dispute at Race with the one here. aprock (talk) 01:59, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The point being that one cannot generalize from a researcher in the US losing his job to what the public opinion is worldwide.Miradre (talk) 02:08, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok. That's fine. I'm not sure that's a real point of dispute here. But sure, I agree with you on this point. aprock (talk) 03:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

problems with History of the debate section

This section clearly has significant pov problems. The biggest problem is that section is not a proper summary of the main article, and does not follow WP:SUMMARY style. This has lead to an agrandizement of the hereditarian viewpoint, and a minimization of the mainstream viewpoint.

• The dominant viewpoint is smeared by association with political correctness in the second paragraph: "environmental and cultural factors played a dominant role in part due to ... reluctance of psychologists to risk being associated with the Nazi claims".
• Nearly the entire section focuses on showcasing the viewpoints of hereditarian researchers, using descriptions of their research and conclusions like: "poor educational performance was not primarily the result of lacking education, but reflected an underlying genetic cause", "the main causes for poverty in Africa is a low average intelligence".
• Much of the historical criticism is described in opaque phrases like: "sparked controversy", "some critical", "his critque", "controversial interview".
• The presentation of the APA report in that section emphasizes the hereditarian viewpoint that both genetic and environmental causes are equally plausible.
• The role of the Pioneer Fund and it's historic status as a leader in scientific racism is minimized.

Probably the best way to handle this section is to reduce it's size using proper WP:SUMMARY style. As time permits, I will review more sections. aprock (talk) 18:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

How do you know what the dominant position is? According to the only poll of IQ experts ever done, the hereditarian position is the dominant one: The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book). Both hereditarians and all-environmentalists are mentioned about equally. How does this favor the hereditarian position: "The Bell Curve also led to a 1995 report from the American Psychological Association, "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns", acknowledging a gap between average IQ scores of whites and blacks as well as the absence of any adequate explanation of it, either environmental or genetic?" The Pioneer Fund is mentioned with views from both sides.Miradre (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the poll the viewpoint is dominant in psychology. clearly and demonstratedly isn't in Anthropology, and the 1950 UNESCO statement on race pretty much establishes it as outside of the mainstream of political sciences, where it has been since then. Here is the 1978 update (notice article 1.4) HEre is the revision to the statement by the American Association of Physical Anthropologists of 1996 (notice article 11)·Maunus·ƛ· 18:31, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

It is only US anthropology which rejects race. In other nations it is seen as valid in anthropology. As it is even in the US in for example anatomy.Miradre (talk) 18:43, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Could you present sources for the notion that other anthropological traditions disagree with the UNESCO statement? And as for "anatomy" that is physical anthropology and the American Association of Physical Anthropology clearly rejects the notion of racial differencs in mental faculties. Misplaced Pages is works by citing sources you know, please present sources that show that other Anthropological and anatomical associations disagree with UNESCO. Or indeed any reliable and authoritative source that would suggest that the UNESCO statement of 1978 does not still represent the mainstream view. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:50, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Science is not determined by political decisions.

• "In Poland the race concept was rejected by only 25 percent of anthropologists in 2001, although: "Unlike the U.S. anthropologists, Polish anthropologists tend to regard race as a term without taxonomic value, often as a substitute for population.""

• "Liberman et al. in a 2004 study claimed to "present the currently available information on the status of the concept in the United States, the Spanish language areas, Poland, Europe, Russia, and China. Rejection of race ranges from high to low with the highest rejection occurring among anthropologists in the United States (and Canada). Rejection of race is moderate in Europe, sizeable in Poland and Cuba, and lowest in Russia and China." Methods used in the studies reported included questionnaires and content analysis."

• "Kaszycka et al. (2009) in 2002-2003 surveyed European anthropologists' opinions toward the biological race concept. Three factors, country of academic education, discipline, and age, were found to be significant in differentiating the replies. Those educated in Western Europe, physical anthropologists, and middle-aged persons rejected race more frequently than those educated in Eastern Europe, people in other branches of science, and those from both younger and older generations."The survey shows that the views of anthropologists on race are sociopolitically (ideologically) influenced and highly dependent on education.""

• "A 2010 examination of 18 widely used English anatomy textbooks found that every one relied on the race concept. The study gives examples of how the textbooks claim that anatomical features vary between races."

1. Kaszycka, Katarzyna A.; Strziko, Jan (2003). "'Race' Still an Issue for Physical Anthropology? Results of Polish Studies Seen in the Light of the U.S. Findings". American Anthropologist. 105: 116–24. doi:10.1525/aa.2003.105.1.116.
2. The race concept in six regions: variation without consensus, Lieberman L, Kaszycka KA, Martinez Fuentes AJ, Yablonsky L, Kirk RC, Strkalj G, Wang Q, Sun L., Coll Antropol. 2004 Dec;28(2):907-21, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15666627
3. Current Views of European Anthropologists on Race: Influence of Educational and Ideological Background, Katarzyna A. Kaszycka, Goran Štrkalj, Jan Strzałko, American Anthropologist Volume 111, Issue 1, pages 43–56, March 2009, DOI: 10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x
4. Human Biological Variation in Anatomy Textbooks: The Role of Ancestry, Goran Štrkalj and Veli Solyali, Studies on Ethno-Medicine, 4(3): 157-161 (2010)

I am aware of that study - but this does not mean that eastern european anthropological associations do not accept the UNESCO statement, nor that the UNESCO statement is not the closest thing to a mainstream that we have. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:10, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

@Miradre, I believe you are confusing "race" with "race and intelligence" here. Please refer to point 11 on the UNESCO statement that Maunus linked to. aprock (talk) 19:14, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

A political decree does not decide truth in science. Does not matter if it is UNESCO or Stalin.Miradre (talk) 19:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

This wasn't a question about WP:TRUTH in science. You asked about the dominant view. Regardless, the main problem is that the section does not properly summarize the main article. aprock (talk) 19:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly - this is not about truth it is about which view is and has been the mainstream view since 1950.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

If you want to read the view of UNESCO decades ago, read that statement. If you want to read the view of the experts on this subject, read this The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book). Why is it not summarized properly? A dispute about how to summarize is not necessarily a NPOV dispute.Miradre (talk) 19:22, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The AAPA are experts in race. The group surveyed by Snyderman/Rothman are experts in IQ.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The UNESCO statement is more recent than the Snyderman/Rothman survey. For details on the problems with the summary, please see the initial edit in this section. aprock (talk) 19:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The UNESCO decree is from 1950, updated 1978. The Snyderman/Rothman survey is from 1988. I have answered the initial edit.Miradre (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring to the 1996 AAPA statement. If you want people to take you seriously, it would probably help if you avoided labeling sources that you don't agree with as decrees. I'm not sure what else to say at this point. If you'd like to continue discussing the issues in a constructive manner, I'd be happy to. Until then, I shall once again disengage. When I've got more time I will go over the next section. aprock (talk) 19:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The studies showing what anthropologists think outside the US are more recent than 1996. The AAA does not decree what all the world's anthropologists think. I have replied to your points. Now I wait for you to reply to me. it is your turn. If not, I will remove the tags.Miradre (talk) 19:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

If you remove the tag after having been represented with such substantial rationales for their continued incluson I will be filing an ArbCom Enforcement request, because that would be plainly disruptive.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:48, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I have replied to the concrete objections. Now I wait for you to reply to me. It is your turn now.Miradre (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

You have not replied you have dismissed the concerns as invalid based on your problematic interpretation of two problematic studies, and rejected statements by the UNESCO and a professional organizations as specious and not reflective of the mainstream view. I don't see how to argue with that. You have had the opinion of two editors who both believe the article to be biased and have substantiated that opinion with ample evidence and reasoning. You simply disagree with the reasoning. That does not consitute a consensus that the article is not biased and the POV tag can be removed. I think you would do wisely to await more input before removing the tag. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:55, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

What was problematic about the studies about what anthropologists think in other nations than the US? How was my interpretation problematic? Why should a political organization like UNESCo decide what is true in science? Do you think science may have changed in this area during the last 33 years since UNESCO updated that decree?Miradre (talk) 20:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

This is not about what is true in science - it is about what is the mainstream view. I don't see how a view can be more mainstream than being endorsed by the UN. If the mainstream shifts I am sure the UNESCO will make a new statement. You are using the study of European anthropologists t argue that the UNESCO view of race is not accepted as mainstream in those countries in eastern Europe and that therefore it is not mainstream on a global scale. Now the study firstly does not say what view of race those scholars accept - or whether that view is compatible with the UNESCO statement. It also doesn't suggest that the the countries as a whole do not accept the statement. And it is also not possible to use the fact that dissent may exist to suggest that the UNESCO view is not representative of the mainstream. Your way of using it to extrapolae to conclusions about what is an isn't mainstream worldwide, and to how other countries view the unesco statement (the UN is a global organization!) is basically OR. You are applying a huge double standard in your argument - we have have presented sources that surely represent what is the view of the most mainstream organization on the planet - and you dismiss it because it is not written within the past decade and because one (1) study suggests that Eastern European anthropologists still practice pre-1950 anthropology. And no the last 33 years in science has not seen a substantial change in the public view about race - otherwise a new statement would have been issued, or a number of professional organizations would have issued dissenting statements. They have not. The AAPA is without a doubt the most representative of the mainstream in physical anthropology worldwide, and their 1996 statement updates the 1978 UNESCO statement on some points but does not differ from it on the point of racial differences in mental faculties. ·Maunus·ƛ· 20:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

No, a 33 years old political decree does not decide what is dominant view today in a field. Regarding anthropology, it is not only some European anthropologists who accept race, but also many in China and Cuba according to the study I cited. An American organization does not decide what every anthropologist in the world should think. As stated, even in the US, anatomy accept race as valid. Also in the US, biologist have simply stopped talking about race, either for or against, in their textbooks, so what their view is either uncertain or afraid to state something politically incorrect. For sports science many more textbooks accept race than do not: Race_(classification_of_humans)#Current_views_across_disciplines. Miradre (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you even reading what I write here? UNESCO is an international organization with worldwide participation. This is the mainstream view'. AAPA is the meanistream of physical anthropologists world wide and you have not presented any evidence that other countries Anthropological Associations do not endorse the AAPA statement or the UNESCO statement. This is not about what people shoudl think it is about how to determine which view is the mainstream. You are presenting to pitiful surveys of individuals in Eastern Europe China and Cuba - I am presenting official statements from official bodies. This is going nowhere fast and this article is going to need some official dispute resolution very soon.·Maunus·ƛ· 21:10, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The statement also states this "Population groups of foreign origin, particularly migrant workers and their families who contribute to the development of the host country, should benefit from appropriate measures designed to afford them security and respect for their dignity and cultural values and to facilitate their adaptation to the host environment and their professional advancement with a view to their subsequent reintegration in their country of origin and their contribution to its development; steps should be taken to make it possible for their children to be taught their mother tongue." So does this mean that the mainstream scientific view is that immigrants and their children should return home after a while? Should Misplaced Pages state this as the mainstream scientific view? Obviously not, this is a political statement, not a scientific one. What the IQ experts who study the issue think can be seen here: The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book).Miradre (talk) 21:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

And here communication officially breaks down. I don't even think there is a name for that logical fallacy you just commited, but I definitely can't continue discussion at this level. I'll be looking for the appropriate venue to get some community involvement in this issue.·Maunus·ƛ· 21:25, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

yes, community involvement is indeed needed.-- mustihussain (talk) 20:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

If there are NPOV issues, then please give concrete examples so the article can improved. You gave some good concrete criticisms in past which improved the article, so if there are more, then please state them.Miradre (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's look at the passages Maunus points too: UNESCO: "4. All peoples of the world possess equal faculties for attaining the highest level in intellectual, technical, social, economic, cultural and political development." This passage is ambiguous. I can either mean: 1) all peoples, in the collective sense, possess equal faculties for..., 2) all individuals of all populations possess equal faculties for ..., or 3) between populations there are the same ratios of individuals with the capacity for ...

Of these 2) is trivially false as is 3) when you think about it. My guess is that 1) is meant. Perhaps Maunus can inform us as to his interpretation. The interpretation in important since the hereditarian hypothesis says nothing about the collective abilities of peoples. Jensen (1973) makes this rather clear. The hereditarian hypothesis concerns itself strictly with between population ratios and says nothing about collective capacity; the two may be related but they may not be. I would suggest that the UNESCO position, as such, in no way conflicts with the hereditarian hypothesis. I could be wrong, but we would need more information than can be found in the paper to determine this. We will have to wait until Maunus locates that information.

Sheesh this conversation is laughable. Miadre is of course right that the UNESCO statement has about as much scholarly credibility as the Nuremberg finding on Katyn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.210.13 (talk) 11:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

My point was that there isn't a clear contradiction between the UNESCO position and the hereditarian position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.235.88 (talk) 11:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"Common garden"

"He also argues that phrasing the question in terms of heritability is useless since heritability applies only within groups, but cannot be used to compare traits across groups. Templeton argues that the only way to design a study of the genetic contrtibution to intelligence would be to study populations of hybrid individuals in a Mendelian "common garden" design, and he further argues that when this design has been carried out it has shown no significant correlation between any cognitive and the degree of African or European ancestry."

That is unclear. What is a "common garden" design? What studies are are Templeton refering to? If it are those mentioned elsewhere then this should be pointed out.Miradre (talk) 00:41, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Mendel raised hybrids in a common garden where they were subject to the same environmental influences. That is what is meant. He refers to studies by Scarr et al. 1977, and Loehlin et al. 1973 and Green 1972. I haven't looked at those yet. IN anycase Templeton is a statistician and a genticist and a very reliable source about this.·Maunus·ƛ· 02:08, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

You are actually arguing that someone has done this with humans? Should be removed as absurd, especially if you have not looked at the studies itself. Please give the full references for the studies and I will look at them.Miradre (talk) 02:13, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

You do not get to remove "absurdities" by well respected authorities while inserting worse absurdities by fringe scientists. Sorry.·Maunus·ƛ· 02:28, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Arguing that someone has actually been allowed to breed and raise humans in an experiment in such a way is simply absurd. What are the full references?Miradre (talk) 02:35, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course no one has "bred humans" in a common garden design. But some studies have used a similar research design comparing heritability in individuals with different degrees of ancestry in similar environments. Scarr's studies were apparently from Brazil - where it would be more plausible to have mixed ancestry people grow up in similar social environments.·Maunus·ƛ· 02:35, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

• Scarr, Katz & Barker. 1977. Absence of a relationship between degree of white ancestry and intellectual skills within a black population. HUman Genetics 39: 69-89.
• Loehlin, Vandenber & Osborne. 1973. Blood group genes and Negro-white ability differences. Behavior genetics 3 263-270.
• Green, R. F. 1972. on the correlation between IQ and amount of "white" blood. Proceedings of the 80th Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association. 7. 285-86.·Maunus·ƛ· 02:40, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Very old blood group studies. They are discussed elsewhere, at least two of them. I will check what the third one is.Miradre (talk) 02:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The Green source was not peer-reviewed but just a presentation at a conference. This topic is already covered in blood group discussions. Seems like Templeton is just rehashing some very old arguments.Miradre (talk) 03:01, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, why cannot heritability be compared across groups? Is it just Lewontin's argument regarding heritability not measuring all environmental factors that can differ between groups again? Miradre (talk) 00:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Because it is only statistically valid within a group: "the first step in calculating variance is to subtract off the mean. This means that a heritability is insensitive to the mean value of a trait within a population. You can shift the trait value up or down due to environmental factors without it affecting the heritability. It also means that mean differences among populations are uninformative about underlying genetic differences". (Templeton p. 49)·Maunus·ƛ· 02:08, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is just Lewontin's argument again, even if Templeton does not acknowledge this.Miradre (talk) 02:15, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

In short, there is nothing new in this section. His arguments are: 1. Race does not exist. Discussed in the "The validity of "race" and "IQ"" section. 2. Repeating Leowontin's argument. Discussed in the "Heritability within and between groups" section. 3. Ancient blood group studies. Discussed in the "Degree of geographic ancestry" section. In short, there is nothing here that is not already covered elsewhere so I see no need for this section.Miradre (talk) 03:26, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Lots of new tags...

So are there reasons for the tags? I would be glad to discuss any objections... Miradre (talk) 12:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class psychology articles
• Mid-importance psychology articles
• WikiProject Psychology articles
• Start-Class Anthropology articles
• Mid-importance Anthropology articles
• Start-Class sociology articles
• Mid-importance sociology articles