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Many minor edits in Solar inverter

{{Talkback|Surajt88#Many minor edits in Solar inverter}}

Proposal

I replied to your comment and made a proposal. I'm a volunteer like everyone else. So please respect my time and let's get straight down to the work at hand, ok? QuackGuru (talk) 22:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

You claimed "You can see the full text on the authors' web site. (This paper was not published in the intended issue (11/2010) of the BJP but exists as a preprint. There is no explanation for its exclusion from the intended issue and there are no published plans to include it in a future issue.) Jojalozzo 02:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)"

Where is your evidence the source was withrawn or never published. QuackGuru (talk) 00:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Not responding on my talk page. Bring this up in context. Jojalozzo 01:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

You claimed "there are no published plans to include it in a future issue." How did you come to that conclusion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I asked you to stop this less than an hour ago as I have done other times you have left messages for me about the Matute paper. Continuing to post here is further evidence of your difficulty hearing what others say. I will seek administrative assistance if you post anything further about the Matutue paper on this page. Jojalozzo 01:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

FYI: Pseudoscience editing is subject to restrictions

This note is to inform you that Pseudoscience articles are subject to editing restrictions, as outlined by the Arbitration Committee. Please read and familiarize yourself with this remedy. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:18, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Pseudoscience, Matute

Hey, I put this together with OrangeMarlin. The talk page is a bit hectic so I thought I'd try and get your feedback on it before proposing there. Let me know what you think:

Pseudoscience and a lack of scientific literacy are a concern among scientists, teachers, and other professionals. While pseudoscience in the paranormal realm regarding superstitions like astrology are typically physically harmless, pseudoscience in medicine (quackery), law-enforcement (psychic detectives), and psychiatry (unproven techniques) can lead individuals to pursue harmful treatments and avoid helpful ones, in addition to expending time and money in the process.

1. http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/c7/c7s2.htm
2. http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1662/0002-7685(2006)68%5B197%3ATIOTTN%5D2.0.CO%3B2
3. http://dlib.eastview.com/browse/doc/6670647
4. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1348/000712610X532210/abstract
5. http://cjb.sagepub.com/content/35/10/1215.short
6. http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=OY05uZUCaTsC&oi=fnd&pg=PA187&dq=is+pseudoscience+harmful&ots=-1FHlvaCZk&sig=ZYRpmIAejEANvuNfxU6ggYh1iKM#v=onepage&q&f=false
7. http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=U8cr8uHesvEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=is+pseudoscience+harmful&ots=FZO-OXbm5X&sig=6k3QifBA4fSehT9p9rEpF4I_XQA#v=onepage&q=is%20pseudoscience%20harmful&f=false

Restricting Matute et al. to pseudo-medicine is certainly an improvement. However, aren't there sources that actually document the public health risks of quackery and provide citations to back them up? I don't see any reason to include Matute et al. except as backup to real solid, informative sources and even then it really not that good for that use. It's a great source for a section on why we are susceptible to pseudoscience (and I'd be willing to work on such a section - wish I'd thought of that 6 months ago) but it's just not about the negative effects of quackery and I don't see a good Wikipedian reason to use it here.

Are there sources to allow us to include the impacts of pseudoscience in investment fraud?

Jojalozzo 18:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

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No response?

Pseudoscience

The mainstream source is precisly about pseudoscience.

The serious matters that are a threat to public health are:

"The ‘Keep libel laws out of science’ campaign was launched on 4 June 2009, in the UK. Simon Singh, a science writer who alerted the public about the lack of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments, was sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association (Sense about Science, 2009). Similar examples can be found in almost any country. In Spain, another science writer, Luis Alfonso Ga´mez, was also sued after he alerted the public on the lack of evidence supporting the claims of a popular pseudoscientist (Ga´mez, 2007). In the USA, 54% of the population believes in psychic healing and 36% believe in telepathy (Newport & Strausberg, 2001). In Europe, the statistics are not too different. According to the Special Eurobarometer on Science and Technology (European Commission, 2005), and just to mention a few examples, a high percentage of Europeans consider homeopathy (34%) and horoscopes (13%) to be good science. Moreover, ‘the past decade has witnessed acceleration both in consumer interest in and use of CAM (complementary and alternative medicine) practices and/or products. Surveys indicate that those with the most serious and debilitating medical conditions, such as cancer, chronic pain, and HIV, tend to be the most frequent users of the CAM practices’ (White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy, 2002, p. 15). Elements of the latest USA presidential campaign have also been frequently cited as examples of how superstitious beliefs of all types are still happily alive and promoted in our Western societies (e.g., Katz, 2008). On another, quite dramatic example, Science Magazine recently alerted about the increase in ‘stem cell tourism’, which consists of travelling to another country in the hope of finding a stem cell-based treatment for a disease when such a treatment has not yet been approved in one’s own country (Kiatpongsan & Sipp, 2009). This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

The threat to public health is a statement made as a conclusion rather than an assumption. This is indeed about the topic pseudoscience according to the source. For example, "This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

One of the main pseudoscience points from full text is: "As preoccupied and active as many governmental and sceptical organizations are in their fight against pseudoscience, quackery, superstitions and related problems, their efforts in making the public understand the scientific facts required to make good and informed decisions are not always as effective as they should be. Pseudoscience can be defined as any belief or practice that pretends to be scientific but lacks supporting evidence. Quackery is a particular type of pseudoscience that refers to medical treatments. Superstitions are irrational beliefs that normally involve cause–effect relations that are not real, as those found in pseudoscience and quackery. These are a serious matter of public health and educational policy in which many variables are involved."

The authors summarised the public health issue in the abstract. According to the source pseudoscience is a serious matter that threatens public health. It is WP:OR if we don't summarise the main pseudoscience points because it would be taking the source out of context.

From abstract: "Pseudoscience, superstitions, and quackery are serious problems that threaten public health and in which many variables are involved."

Matute H, Yarritu I, Vadillo MA (2010). "Illusions of causality at the heart of pseudoscience". Br J Psychol. doi:10.1348/000712610X532210. PMID 21092400.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

As a point of fact, there are hundreds of WP:V-compliant sources on the subject. However, the Matute source is peer-reviewed and should be given WP:WEIGHT. The text and source meets WP:SOURCES. It would be a violation of NPOV to imply a serious dispute where there is none. The text does not need to be attributed becuase editors disgree with researchers. I think that a summary of Matutue et al. does contribute a lot to Pseudoscience#Demographics, Pseudoscience#Psychological explanations and Pseudoscience#Health and education implications. The text passes V. Please don't delete sourced text again. QuackGuru (talk) 03:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

You are unable to reply because it seems you have no argument. What is your argument for deleting sourced text? QuackGuru (talk) 03:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

This is not the proper place for this discussion. I have made my arguments many times on Talk:Pseudoscience. Please go back there and keep the discussion where it belongs. Jojalozzo 14:52, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Pseudoscience disruption

You misrepresented the mainstream source

You claimed at the Fringe theories noticeboard:

"Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: "Sources should directly support the material presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made. The appropriateness of any source depends on the context." (my emphasis)

I am one of the editors who finds this source inappropriate for the claims that QuackGuru wishes to make in the Pseudoscience article. This paper is about the psychology of pseudoscience and cognitive distortion and would be a very good source for that. However, the authors make general and unsupported claims about the public health risks of pseudoscience that are a) tangential to the research or even to psychology in general and b) apply only to quackery and not the whole field of pseudoscience. No other good sources have been located to support these extremely broad claims. While this source is reliable within it's domain and is welcome for use in the section on the psychology of pseudoscience, it is unsuited as the sole basis for claims about the public health risks of pseudoscience except in the more narrow case of quackery (for which many superior references exist).

You can see the full text on the authors' web site. (This paper was not published in the intended issue (11/2010) of the BJP but exists as a preprint. There is no explanation for its exclusion from the intended issue and there are no published plans to include it in a future issue.) Jojalozzo 02:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)" See Fringe theories noticeboard.

One who disputes the reliability of apparently good sources

You find yourself engaging in discussions about the reliability of sources that substantially meet the criteria for reliable sources.

There is nothing wrong with questioning the reliability of sources, to a point. But there is a limit to how far one may reasonably go in an effort to discredit the validity of what most other contributors consider to be reliable sources, especially when multiple sources are being questioned in this manner. This may take the form of arguing about the number or validity of the sources cited by the sources. The danger here is in judging the reliability of sources by how well they support the desired viewpoint.

You mislead other editors. The part you wrote "This paper was not published in the intended issue (11/2010) of the BJP but exists as a preprint. There is no explanation for its exclusion from the intended issue and there are no published plans to include it in a future issue."

You claim the source is unreliable and was never intended to be published. This is not true. Please stop misrepesenting the reliability of sources. Your misrepresenting of the source led to you deleting an entire paragraph from a peer-reviewed source. Do you understand your behaviour is Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing.

Repeated pattern of violating core Misplaced Pages poilices

Jojalozzo, do you agree you will stop violating core Misplaced Pages policies?

Troll accusation

What is the abbrevation dnft stand for? Why did write in part: If not, let's stop cooking this trollish feast.?

Copy editing comment in edit summary

You claimed "minor cleanup, a little copy editing". This was recently added text. How could the edit be a copy edit?

WP:ASF violation

A simple formulation

Assert facts, including facts about opinions--but don't assert opinions themselves. What does this mean?

"What we mean is that when it is a fact, for this policy, (a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute) it can be asserted without prefixing it with "(Source) says that ...", and when it is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute) it can be attributed using this sort of inline-text attribution. Undisputed findings of reliable sources can be asserted without in-text attribution. In-text attribution is recommeded where sources disagree, not where editors disagree.

Most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source regardless of whether it is a truthful statement. However, for WP:ASF, it is how we present the verified text from reliable sources.

Misplaced Pages is devoted to stating facts and only facts, in this sense. Where we might want to state opinions, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them.

Requiring an inline qualifier for widespread consensus of reliable sources on the grounds that it is "opinion" would allow a contrarian reader to insist on an inline qualifier for material about which there is no serious dispute, using the argument that the material is an "opinion". This would mean, in the end, that all material in Misplaced Pages would require an inline qualifier, even if only one Misplaced Pages editor insisted on it, which is not the goal of ASF. Presenting a "fact" as an "opinion" is needlessly attributing uncontroversial statements, and so creating the appearance of doubt or disagreement where there is none."

When there is no serious dispute there in no need to undermine reliable sources with in-text attribution. Do you concur? You have refused to collabrate on the talk page in oast and now I am forced to warn you on your talk page of your continued policy violations and tendentious behaviour. You have not made arguments on the talk page to justify the policy violations such as the OR or deleting an entire paragraph. QuackGuru (talk) 17:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)