Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:08, 18 July 2011

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

See WP:PROPOSAL for Misplaced Pages's procedural policy on the creation of new guidelines and policies. See how to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance for recommendations regarding the creation and updating of policy and guideline pages.

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Polls: First sentence

Poll: Misleading opening statement

• For whatever reason, this statement, "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth: whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." is problematic and needs to be rewritten:

Support

1. . Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
2. For too long, this wording has been used to justify the deliberate inclusion of information known to be incorrect. It needs rethinking. User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
3. Yes, there are multiple problems with it, as noted in previous discussions - it's only acceptable if you happen to know what it's trying to say, and it is intended (obviously) to be read and understood by people who don't know beforehand what it's trying to say.--Kotniski (talk) 14:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
4. The only reason for keeping this misleading sentence would be if there were no good alternatives. However, it is very easy to think of alternative formulations that do an even better job of making clear that we're after the truth as can be distilled from reliable sources, here on Misplaced Pages. Count Iblis (talk) 14:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
5. Verifiability requirements can be strongly stated without double-dissing the concept of accuracy. The first diss is using the straw-man problematic word "truth" instead of "accuracy" and second by inserting the "not" statement in the lead sentence. North8000 (talk) 15:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC) (moved from below Unscintillating's comment) The lead states with emphasis that what we want is "not truth", and so that is what we are getting. (Unscintillating said it well) Time for a change! North8000 (talk) 00:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
6. Weak support as I am not sure that rewriting it is the only way of solving the problem. Actually we have two problems: (1) Editors who really and honestly believe that we should make Misplaced Pages say something that we know is not true. Just because reliable sources agree it is true and we want to be consistent. (2) Editors who pretend to be of type (1) when it fits their agenda. It saves them from agreeing with a consensus that they cannot plausibly disagree with.
   Both problems are relatively rare but should be addressed. I don't care whether this is done by changing the text or by adding a clear explanation that (1) is not the intended meaning. Maybe neither is needed, but just a strong consensus in this discussion, to which we can then point whenever the matter comes up again. Hans Adler 16:21, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
7. Support. "Verifiability" to this point hasn't even been defined in terms of whether a reliable source has actually been cited, or whether a reliable source could easily be found and cited ("Abraham Lincoln was an important figure in the American Civil War."). Moreover, the world "truth" in the phrase not truth has been perverted: it apparently refers to NOT an editor's idea of truth if it cannot (even in theory) be supported by a reliable source. Which is an extremely odd use of the word "truth," and a very bad way to use it. The concept invoked is something like "a personal controversial version of truth in the WP editors' mind, that could not be supported with a reliable source." THAT is what WP deprecates, but calling that thing "truth" is an abomination, and an insult to truth. WP does seek truth (what good is an encyclopedia that does not?) It just doesn't seek "personal truth." Editors are asked to keep that to themselves.SBHarris 18:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
8. Suggest shortening to "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth: whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source," dropping the words "not whether editors think it is true", because I've seen them misused to dismiss demonstrably well-founded concerns about source accuracy. See #Proposal 2, below. --JN466 16:21, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
9. The lead states with emphasis that what we want is "not truth".  This is what we are getting in the encyclopedia, "not truth".  Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
10. Support - The problem isn't with truth being in Misplaced Pages, everyone wants that. The problem is with what some editors think is true, which may in fact be FALSE. The phrase "verifiability, not truth" is misleading. Remove the "not truth" part. The phrase "not whether editors think it is true" at the end of the sentence is correct and right on the mark. Also, "The threshold" is ambiguous and may mean it's enough to just to be verifiable in order to be included in Misplaced Pages, which is definitely not correct and everyone here agrees that verifiability alone is not enough to be included in Misplaced Pages. There's NPOV, etc. This can be fixed by changing "The threshold" to "A requirement" or "A minimum requirement". Please see Proposal 4 below. 75.47.143.156 (talk) 14:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
11. Support—Truth is too subjective anyways, and has been used by the fringers to their benefit. OrangeMarlin 00:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
12. The word "threshold" is problematic, at least.—S Marshall T/C 23:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
13. For what it's worth. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
14. Support. For years I have wondered why it seemed to be saying that it didn't matter if something was true or false. I was sure it didn't mean that, but it is a clumsy way to say what I think it means. This is a core policy that that new editors should read, and they might not read far down the page, so the first sentences are critical. To be told "not truth" is confusing to me, let alone new editors. "Not truth" can be explained (in rather more words) further down the page. Nothing puzzles me more about Misplaced Pages than that this wording has persisted so long. Bizarre, frankly. Opponents of changing it should put themselves in the shoes of the average novice editor and look at it with fresh eyes. Nurg (talk) 00:40, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
15. Support: The current wording is misleading, and might indicate to some people that we don't care whether or not we are including untrue information, or that we aren't striving for factual accuracy. What does the "not truth" add, really? We are trying to tell people that even if they "know" something to be true, they still must cite a reliable source. However, the instruction "Always cite a reliable source.", is inclusive of the situation where you know something to be true. It says that you always must cite a source. Therefore any statements that say "Even when ..." are extraneous. Why don't we just get rid of "not truth" altogether, and tell people that everything has to have a source, period? If someone tries to add something without a source, and says "But it's true!", then we can say "Doesn't matter. WP:V says you must always have a source." The "not truth" part is unnecessary. ~ Mesoderm (talk) 06:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
16. Support: Verifiability is a means for Truth and an encyclopedia is mainly for truth, not for sources. Search machines are mainly for sources. Alkis0 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. . It's neccesary to mention that debates for inclusion don't depend on whether something is true or not. Truth is highly subjective, and endlessly arguable. Verifiabilty can be easily checked. If we imply that truth is a matter of consideration in our decision making process, we will encourage original research, endless arguments, and walls of text. We'll never reach consensus on anything. LK (talk) 13:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
2. I fear that changing this wording opens the door to unwarranted promotion of fringe theories which is still a major problem here at Misplaced Pages. In fact, the latest Quarterly Newsletter of the Association for Skeptical Enquiry discusses the problem and actually recommends people stay away from Misplaced Pages because of the difficulty in dealing with fringe theories. Let's face it. There's a good reason why we don't care about The Truth©: people can argue endlessly over what's true but checking to see if a source says something is a much easier debate to settle. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
3. I don't think the statement itself is problematic, and I don't think it should be removed or changed... However, I think the explanation of it may be incomplete. As written, it correctly excludes unverifiable information, even if it is "true". What it is missing is a follow up statement on what to do about clearly untrue (or inaccurate) information that happens to be verifiable. Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
4. Nothing's broken as far as I can see. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
5. I expect to need the words "threshold" + "verifiability, not truth" in the foreseeable future. My evolving intensity of preference is informed by lessons learned the hard way. --Tenmei (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
6. There's nothing wrong with the current wording, and changing it will open the floodgates to every crank who thinks they know the TRUTH™. Even now we are inundated with them, but this wording at least helps mitigate the worst of it. Jayjg 22:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
7. The idea that "verifiability, not truth" is the threshold for inclusion is widely used and well-understood on Misplaced Pages. Some people here are saying there have been attempts to insert material known to be false because of it, but I've personally never seen an example of that in over six years of regular editing; and if such examples do exist, they are rare. For the most part, the idea makes clear to editors that what we do on Misplaced Pages is supply a survey of the relevant literature, regardless of our personal views. That's not just a means to an end (where what we're really doing is aiming for "truth"), as others have argued. Offering a good summary of the appropriate literature is an end-in-itself. SlimVirgin 01:24, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
8. Wording is fine. Like I've said before, Misplaced Pages's policies don't currently allow individual editors to assert personal authority over what is true or not. We're only allowed to declare something as true if it says so in a reliable, verifiable source. Therefore, verifiability trumps whatever we personally feel to be true. Cla68 (talk) 02:08, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
9. It's fine, and we understand what it means. (Those who don't can be pointed at Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth.) And if you need to see the problems with demanding that articles present "the Truth™", then I recommend that you spend a while hanging out at articles about mental illness, where people occasionally name "personal experience" as a "citation" for claims about (for example) the laws for involuntary commitment in their home countries. There's an ongoing dispute in articles related to saturated fat about whether the mainstream view (eating a lot of saturated fat is bad for the heart) has been completely wrong for decades. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
10. The statement is fine because "the truth" can only be proven via verifiable reliable sources. Anyone can go and claim that something is not "true" and remove it from an article even if it's well sourced, that's why wikipedia is not about truth. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
11. As has been said above, surely better than I can say it, the present wording is fine. As "truth" so often depends on the viewpoint of the speaker, we have to use the standard of whether or not something can be verified from a "reliable source", and "threshold" is a succinct way of saying that verifiability is a condition that must be met for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, but doesn't guarantee inclusion. -- Donald Albury 09:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
12. Per SlimVirgin, Blueboar, et al. --causa sui (talk) 19:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
13. IT is core to the encyclopedia. As the community grows, more people will come not understanding this core principle, and not encountering lots of people to explain it to them. Misunderstanding core policy is an inevitable consequence of growth. The solution is not to change the policy that has contributed so much to WP's success and credibility, but to explain it better and to promote it more consistently. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:08, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
14. Oppose per the above. And if it is used to "justify the deliberate inclusion of information known to be incorrect," then that would need to be addressed elsewhere (and I agree that it should be addressed, if not judged as outright vandalism!). This part of policy is very clear and needs to be strongly stated as it now is. Dreadstar ☥ 03:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
15. Oppose. It says exactly what it means. It has the added value that it is shocking, and makes the reader start to think. And it has years of use and tradition. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 08:04, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
16.  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 05:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

• As above, my beef is that it creates an artificial dichotomy of truth and verifiability as distinct endpoints (which they are), but what needs to be emphasised is verifiability is a means to an end. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Amplifying Casliber's opinion, please consider these factors. --Tenmei (talk) 17:56, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• WP:V "frames" each of our edits by providing generally practical, flexible templates which were crafted to help me and others find ways (a) to escape conflict and (b) to move towards areas of identified agreement.
• WP:V communicates in a way that logic alone cannot, especially when people are talking past each other at cross purposes and when a mismatch develops like a "chicken talking to a duck" (鸡同鸭讲 or 雞同鴨講) or when a white horse is not a horse (白馬非馬).
• WP:V is most needed because " ... the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already".

• Some people above seem to be under the impression that "verifiability" (or "whether a source says something") is an objective matter. It isn't, of course - determining whether a source is "reliable" in a given instance is no less a subjective process than determining whether a given statement is "true" (in fact it quite often comes down to the same thing - we conclude that a source is unreliable if the statements it's making appear not to be true). And pushers of fringe theories can exploit verifiability too - by insisting that the sources that support their viewpoints are just as reliable as those that oppose them (or even making WP reproduce claims from fringe sources as the truth, just because no-one happens to have found a mainstream source that specifically contradicts the claims in question).--Kotniski (talk) 14:46, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Responding to the above and answering Kotniski's question here: Yes, we can not improve the wording of a significant sentence by deleting the key words "threshold" + "verifiability, not truth". The word "threshold" implies movement and the beginning of a process. This conceptual "threshold" emphasizes the pivotal distinction between (a) a fact which supported by WP:V + WP:RS and (b) a mere factoid which is associated with zero cited confirming support. Adopting Kotniski's words from an archived thread: yes, "in actual fact we do care about the truth of statements and don't mindlessly copy apparent errors from sources"; but this concern only addresses one of a series of plausible follow-up questions. This survey is about averting consequences which attend throwing out the baby with the bath water. --Tenmei (talk) 17:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't "threshold" just as likely imply the end of a process? Passing a literal threshold means you've entered the house - you're home, dry, and can finally relax in front of the snooker. (And of course something doesn't become a "fact" by virtue of being supported by "reliable sources", or a "factoid" by not being so supported - I don't really know what you're trying to say with that.)--Kotniski (talk) 17:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Q.E.D. -- compare what Blueboar wrote here. --Tenmei (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• What about "Verifiability: The only practical way to approximate the objective truth"? Count Iblis (talk) 14:59, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Poll Results: After a week, it seems clear that the poll on this proposal is coming down to "no consensus", with roughly equal support and oppose views expressed. This usually means we default to "Keep as is". Do we need to continue, or shall we accept that the proposal is not going to be adopted? Blueboar (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
  • I'd be happy if people could see that they've lost when they plainly have... but I know that my own optimism and faith in my fellow editors sometimes prevents me from seeing such things myself when I'm on the other side. Consequently, I think we can reasonably expect another week of time-wasting arguments here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Indeed. As previous proposals have been retrieved from the archives and restored to the page, I'm restoring this poll too. SlimVirgin 11:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

We go with the source
of course of course
and no one may judge when the source is horse
that is of course unless the source is just inside your head
So go straight to the source and if it's horse
that's simply the info you must endorse
we're always on a steady course
repeating what's been said...
screwing with your head.
BE——Critical_{__Talk} 18:16, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for a change in the first sentence

Shall we remove the words "not truth" from the first sentence of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability? 20:32, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been gone and it got archived under the 5 day setting, but below is the lead proposal that emerged from the process here over the last few months. So now it is time to propose the change, with the alternative being "no change" We discussed the desirability of casting a wider net for input (which also means a longer time period for input) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal

Replace the entire first (one sentence) paragraph of wp:ver with:

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. No other consideration, such as assertions of truth, is a substitute for verifiability.

...

Notes

1. For continuity, the previous version of this text read, "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."

The footnote would go in the notes section at the end of the policy and remain longer term.

Support

1. Support This change strengthens wp:verifiability by providing a clearer statement. At same time it corrects the problem that the current wording disparages the concept of striving for accuracy, and the negative impacts that such has had. The disparagement is indirect here, but much worse when that portion is taken out of context and used as a chant, as it often is. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
2. Support I think it's much clearer than the the current version. Laurent (talk) 14:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
3. Support as a move in the right direction (though there are still things wrong with it, as I have pointed out many times).--Kotniski (talk) 14:14, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
4. Support. My position is that this change is necessary but not sufficient, and I would prefer to see the word "threshold" changed as well.—S Marshall T/C 20:56, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
5. Support - an improvement - as I have said on this page before, the construction of a false dichotomy between "truth" and "verifiability" is misleading. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
6. Support; many people here seem to fundamentally misunderstand what "verifiability, not truth" means, and it causes far more problems than it should. The proposed wording will eliminate that problem, and it won't enable the "truth warriors" because it says the exact same thing (that information must be verifiable) without allowing for the opposite extreme (people with a severe case of literal thinking who believe "verifiability" means we must source everything to secondary sources, when sometimes a primary source is more reliable, and that we have no respect for the truth and blindly follow the sources even when they're obviously wrong) to impose their standards. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
7. Support. In general, we do care that our articles are accurate, not just verifiable. The "not truth" language causes more confusion than it solves. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:15, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
8. Support  (1) The lede states with emphasis that what we want in Misplaced Pages is "not truth".  It appears that some editors really believe that "not truth" is acceptable for the content of articles.  (2) The current text is not useful to explain to a reasonable editor why he/she can't just fix an article to say what a consensus of editors agree is true.  These are both unintended consequences of using a figure of speech in technical writing.  The solution is to remove "not truth" from what verifiability is about, and let WP:Editing policy bear the weight where it says, "on Misplaced Pages a lack of information is better than misleading or false information".  Unscintillating (talk) 00:59, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
9. Support. It is my opinion that this is wording has been responsible for much of the argumentation and downright silliness on en:wp. John lilburne (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
10. support. heaven forbid wp be accused of truth. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:52, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
11. Support This version says the same thing as the prior did, just in a more explanatory fashion than the often confused and misused "Verifiability, not truth" statement. Might I also note that, looking through the first five archives of this page, I saw no consensus or discussion at all about the addition of the statement or the section, which was added by Slimvirgin back in 2005. Silverseren 19:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
12. Support It's an improvement. The place for iconic crap is T-shirts and tourist traps. SBHarris 22:02, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
13. Support. I see more and more established editors arguing that striving for truth is not necessary, all we have to do is make sure someone else has said it before. That attitude fosters poor editorial judgment, given how often newspapers (and other sources) get things wrong. It's a vital change for this project. See WP:OTTO. --JN466 22:39, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
14. Support. The addendum "not truth" is redundant, potentially misleading, and does appear to have misled some editors into holding the absurd notion that an untrue statement can be "verifiable". By the standard definition given in any decent dictionary, verifiability is a stronger notion than truth and automatically implies it—it's simply impossible to verify something that isn't true. Strictly speaking, what you verify when you check a source which is cited as justifying an assertion of a fact X is not the fact X itself, but the fact that the source asserts X. If many reliable sources assert X and none contradict it, or even if a single highly authoritative source asserts X, and there is no other reason to suspect that X is false, it's reasonable to take X as having been provisionally verified. But if further evidence (which, for Misplaced Pages's purposes has to take the form of citable, reliable sources) were to be found to cast doubt on the truth of X it would then be no longer justifiable to claim that X itself is verifiable merely because there are some reliable sources which assert it. David Wilson (talk · cont) 17:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
15. Support, per most of the arguments above, but I do think that voting on such proposals is not enough to change things; what is needed is to come up with a new draft for the entire policy page, perhaps also NOR and the other core policies, and put those to a vote. Count Iblis (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
16. Support. Either remove it or change it to something along the lines of "Verifability, just as much as truth". Like Casliber points out, the current wording suggests a false dichotomy, where both verifiability and truth together should be the basis for the inclusion of any assertion. The current wording is the second most frequently abused formulations in all P&G, right after the fictitious "​neutral" point of view. --213.196.218.59 (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
17. Support. I don't much care whether it is perfect. It is a lot better. Nurg (talk) 00:40, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
18. Support It's clearer, and so more immediately-understandable; it's not perfect, but it's definitely an improvement. Nothing stopping us progressing towards still more improvement, and I think a first step towards perfect is always a good idea. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 04:05, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. There is already a straw poll at the top of this page that gained no consensus for change. This may seem like a small tweak, but it's a significant change in emphasis from the current first sentence. The current version has had consensus for years and reads: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." The phrase "Verifiability, not truth" is iconic as a representation of Misplaced Pages's sourcing and neutrality standards, and there would have to be strong and wide consensus to change it. SlimVirgin 15:41, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
2. Oppose -- as things stand Misplaced Pages gets warriors who are sure they know what the truth is; WP:V is an essential tool for ensuring that articles are written in ways that reflect sources rather than editors' beliefs about truths. As SV says, the proposed change seems small but is enormously consequential and should not be adopted lightly; it might seem like a way to solve some problems, but unintended consequences loom large here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
3. Oppose, this needs to stand as-is, as Slim and Nomoskedasticity point out, this is a very consequential change for the policy that will do nothing but enable the truth-warriors. Verifiability, not truth is an important touchstone for the inclusion of material in Misplaced Pages and shouldn't be diminished by this major change in wording. Dreadstar ☥ 21:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
4. Oppose. I feel very strongly that the phrase "verifiability, not truth" is one of the most powerful ideas behind the success of Misplaced Pages. It's counter-intuitive to new editors, and the ability to explain it to them—as clearly as possible—has been invaluable countless times in avoiding needless disputes. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
5. Oppose. It's not broke, so don't fix it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:26, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
6. Oppose, "Verifiability, not truth" is a good touchstone, I see no gain from the change proposed. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
7. Oppose because the principle that "just because it's true doesn't make it fit for Misplaced Pages" is rather important and oft-quoted. ╟─TreasuryTag►Regent─╢ 22:40, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
8. Oppose—the policy has long been "verifiability, not truth" and that's an important distinction that's been enshrined in our culture around here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imzadi1979 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
9. Oppose - Prefer the current language. This is a vital phrase in combating POV warriors and fringe theory pushers. Blueboar (talk) 00:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
10. Oppose Not broke, don't fix. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:22, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
11. Oppose nothing wrong with the current wording. --Six words (talk) 23:25, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
12. Oppose for reasons informed by lessons learned the hard way --Tenmei (talk) 01:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
13. Oppose - the phrase has been a policy since 2005 (originally in WP:NOR). I don't see a strong enough reason to delete this very stable part of a core policy.   Will Beback  talk  03:00, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
14. Oppose. Current wording is an essential part of policy, removing it will open the floodgates to endless wars among different individuals each possessing their own personal TRUTH™. Jayjg 04:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
15. Oppose - I think the current statement is essential to WP. -- Donald Albury 20:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
16. Oppose the present wording has done us very good service, and built up a large body of explanations and interpretation, which we should not lose. (Like others here, I refer to Slimvirgin's statement in the poll in the prior section as the best explanation) DGG ( talk ) 21:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC) DGG ( talk ) 02:22, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
17. Oppose per Andy Slrubenstein | Talk 01:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
18. Oppose. per Slimvirgin. There is no problem to be fixed. The text says what it means, it means what it says, and it says it well. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:44, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
19. Oppose It misses an essential point, that for our collaborative Misplaced Pages project to work, editors must put aside thoughts about the truth of a matter and concentrate on what is in reliable sources. LK (talk) 06:29, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
20. Oppose — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 05:09, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Additional comments and discussions

Slim, that straw poll was farther reaching. A "yes" meant agreeing with two declarations, one that the (overall) first sentence is problematic, and second that it needs to be rewritten. And even then half of everybody said yes. And, at the time, without any specific proposal; this is a very mild one. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:16, 10 June 2011 (UTC) Italic text

The poll asked whether the first sentence ought to be changed. It gained no consensus, and that's only on this page. You would need a strong consensus (significantly above two thirds) to remove "verifiability, not truth," which is a central idea in WP's policies, and you would need consensus far beyond this page. Lots of people have making that point for a few months, North. :) SlimVirgin

Surely if it really is a central Misplaced Pages idea, it should be drawing in more than one-third support? Or to put it another way, if it only has the grudging support of about a half (or fewer) of the people who comment, it ought to be relegated from its position at the top of what is advertised as a key policy page?--Kotniski (talk) 17:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

The problem, as you know, is that a tiny number of you have been going on about this for months, and it wears most people down, who either don't bother to comment or comment once then wander off. That's why wide input is needed for fundamental changes to core policy, as a safeguard against the kind of thing that's been happening here. SlimVirgin 17:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

It's hardly a fundamental change to policy - we all know what it's supposed to say (more or less), it would just be preferable to say it more clearly and accurately. Anyway, you seem to be voting oppose without any reason except that you expect people not to support it or you don't expect wide input, which seems rather premature (these are points to be made when the discussion comes to be closed). Do you have any argument for preferring the present wording - which tells people that we fundamentally don't care about the truth of what we write?--Kotniski (talk) 17:45, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Slim, that's not what the straw poll question said if you read it closely. Second, I agree with Kotniski that this is not a change in policy, it's just a change in wording. If every change in wp:ver counts as change in policy, then you have changed the policy 5 times in the last 10 days. Third, you are bringing up that double standard again, but this even goes along with that, saying to cast a wide net for feedback and give time for lots of feedback. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

You don't have to read the poll question closely, North. It asked whether the first sentence needed to be rewritten. It isn't reasonable to keep on ignoring people when they say no. SlimVirgin 18:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's written for all to see, and we are describing the questions and result very differently. I say that a "yes" also required agreeing that the current wording is problematic, you say not. I guess we need to agree to disagree and let folks read it for themselves. Second, I resent your characterization of this as "ignoring people when they say no" and feel that there is no basis for such a strong and nasty statement, or even a milder version of it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

SV we have a prime example of this nonsense festering its way though the santorum pages. One side has a bevy of sources using the the word and describing it as a neologism, whilst the expert opinion on the subject Partridge says it is NOT a neologism as it has not gained widespread usage. Which prevails RS or truth? NOT-TRUTH is fine for including articles on the paranormal and rejecting hearsay, it is not so good when it is being used to push an agenda. John lilburne (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

• Doesn't go far enough for me. A corrected first sentence should replace the word "threshold".—S Marshall T/C 19:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

So this is a baby step in that direction.  :-) North8000 (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you've confirmed that you're trying to change things significantly bit by bit, so the lobster doesn't notice he's being boiled. SlimVirgin 20:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I meant that as a way for S Marshall to potentially view this with respect to their comment. Further changes on this part would not be on my radar screen. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

It's the third time in the last few weeks I've seen you use the term "baby steps" to try to persuade people to support your changes to the policy. SlimVirgin 20:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I consider taking a small safe step to be a good concept. I had a proposal in the list but this one was somebody else's. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

However, this is a huge, unsafe step. Jayjg 04:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Where's Crum? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Can someone point to evidence that the current wording is actually causing confusion? I'm not really convinced there's a problem that needs to be solved. Mlm42 (talk) 19:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

IMHO it's pervasive in WP that once a situation starts getting contentious and moves into wikilawyer warfare, the idea of striving for accuracy becomes totally rejectable. And people keep pushing and mistakenly getting the impression that the Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia mission rejects the idea of striving for accuracy. This is NOT true, that impression comes from the faulty concept of trying to reverse engineer a mission statement out of imperfectly worded policies, which is backwards, because policies are supposed to implement the mission on objectives, not define them. And this sentence which for some inexplicable reason feels the need to put a "not" statement into a statement of what IS required has contributed to that. And so IMHO every one of the zillions of statements when someone discounts the idea / goal of striving for accuracy is an example of a problem that this sentence contributes to. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:11, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Well. Ok, but in terms of the wording, many of us simply do not see the problem you see, and these discussions have been going on for quite a while now. There's nothing wrong with the position that if there's no problem to fix, leave it alone. I just don't see any consensus developing here. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:41, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

So... you don't have any evidence it's actually causing confusion? Jayjg 04:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

To me, the proposed rewording has an identical meaning to the current version. The main difference between the two is that the current version has more emphasis placed on the contrast between verifiability and truth.. and I think it's important to emphasize that "verifiability" and "truth" are distinct concepts. The current wording does that well, as soon as possible. Mlm42 (talk) 01:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

On another point, I'm a little concerned that the line "whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published" is going to be misinterpreted as requiring free, online sources, or as requiring inline citations for everything (you know, because none of our readers know how to ask Mr Google whether a source exists). I'm not actually convinced that the primary purpose of citing our sources is to let the readers check anything. I think it's primary purpose is to help editors check the material. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:19, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

That's not a change; that exact wording is in the current first sentence of the policy. North8000 (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

True, but it still worries me. We've recently seen people fussing about non-English sources because they can't check the sources, and the demands for free, online sources have been so persistent that it's enshrined on the list. IMO "users" would be more appropriate than "readers", if we're going to have this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Reading the comments of those who support the proposal, and trying to see where they are coming from, I think part of the disagreement comes from the very reasonable concern that Misplaced Pages should not be implying that "not truth" is actually something we want. We want the truth as reliable sources see it, but not as Misplaced Pages editors see it. Consequently, what Misplaced Pages editors are tasked with doing is to find "verifiability, not truth", but this is done in search for what will be true. As many of us who oppose the proposal have said, if we ditch the "not truth" wording, we will open a floodgate of editors who want to push their versions of The Truth. Instead, would some sort of clarifying sentence, added after, be the way to make clear that we do not mean that we want "not truth"? I haven't thought through how to word it, but I think clarification may be helpful here. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me as well and a possible middle ground.....where does that leave us on this? Wish you were there when we were developing/vetting proposals. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The main issue with the current wording of the sentence and the better wording of this proposal, with the use of the word "assertions", is that the "iconic" statement seems to be saying that Misplaced Pages is fine with publishing lies, just so long as they are lies obtained from other people. I would hope that this is certainly not true. There is a reason why the term Wikiality was ever created in the first place, even if it was meant as a joke. We need to have an explanatory first sentence that explains what we mean by verifiability. We don't need a catchy little statement that is often abused and mocked for its ridiculousness. The question is, sure the statement Verifiability, not truth may be iconic, but do we really want to be iconic for a badly worded, mocked statement? Silverseren 21:26, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Policy by mockery? We shouldn't make policy based on whether mockery exists, but we should consider whether the mockery is based on a valid criticism. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, I love that catchy little statement, both in terms of the rhetoric and for the bulwark it provides against those who know the Truth. It's like WP's little black dress. I suppose I have read too much pragmatism. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:03, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Obviously we shouldn't be making policy based on mockery, but it is based on a valid point. As has been pointed out before, just look at WP:OTTO. If we truly followed through with the Verifiability, not truth statement, then of course we should make that an article, since it's verified, even if it is an absolute and utter lie. Really, if we have to have some sort of statement, Truth through Verifiability would be much more conducive toward what this encyclopedia is trying to do. All in all though, I don't think we need catchy statements for everything, I think for this sort of policy, we need straightforward, explanatory sentences that fully explain how this policy should be used. Silverseren 23:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Examples?

Unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone provide a link to an argument that would have been avoided with the new wording? I think several editors (like me) haven't seen such an argument. The main case for the new wording appears to be that it will prevent some arguments from happening.. so I don't think it's too much to ask for links to a few good examples? Mlm42 (talk) 04:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

If one realizes that this one sentence is just contributory (not single-handedly holding the smoking gun) I could give you hundreds of examples, or start with a few. But it should be on the basis of the material hopefully being informative rather than for this User:North8000/Page2#Useful method to take a whack at any thought. Sincerely,North8000 (talk) 10:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Just a few examples would be nice.. at the moment I'm taking it on faith that there exist any examples at all.. Mlm42 (talk) 15:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

" ... we do not especially care about truth, merely verifiability"

"Yes, the coverage may be wrong, but WP:V's instruction to aim for "verifiability, not truth" does not contain an exception for issues about which we assume to know the (sadly unverifiable) truth"

"It doesn't matter whether it's true or not. "Verifiability, not truth" is the policy."

" ... Misplaced Pages cares about verifiability not truth."

"I don't really care if any of this is true or not; Misplaced Pages is based on verifiability, not truth"

"Our policy has been explained to you: we want verifiability, not truth"

David Wilson (talk · cont) 15:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks; but to me, at first glance, all of these editors appear to be correctly applying the policy? If anything, these examples show how useful and effective the current wording is.. Mlm42 (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and also note that verifiability policy is not the main problem in most of those cases--mostly the contentions is arising from poor sources, poor application of source, OR and bad behaviour in general. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

There still is a big problem here, let me give another example, you may need to browse around this diff to get the full picture here. Count Iblis (talk) 16:13, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

This example is as excellent as it is scary. --213.196.218.59 (talk) 16:29, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't see how blatantly inconsistent misstatements of the policy can be an illustration of how useful and effective its wording is. All of the above statements appear to me to imply that the people making them think that it's permissible to have untrue statements in Misplaced Pages articles as long as they're "verifiable". But that's absurd—if something is truly verifiable it can't possibly be false.

In the last four examples, the editors making the statements are very commendably arguing for the exclusion of unsourced or poorly sourced material. However there's no need to resort to patently fallacious statements to do this. All that's necessary is to point out that policy requires the challenged material to be supported with a citation to a reliable source. There's nothing wrong with also pointing out that the truth of the disputed material is not sufficient for it to be included, but to say that it doesn't matter whether the material is true or not as long as it's "verifiable" is simply nonsense.

|n the first two examples, the editors making the statements are arguing for the inclusion of material on the grounds that it's supposedly reliably sourced. I didn't check what the arguments of those challenging the material were for excluding it, but for the purposes of what these examples were intended to illustrate it doesn't really matter. To make one's case for inclusion it's necessary to at least engage and refute the arguments of those who have challenged it. An argument that we're only aiming for "verifiabity" rather than truth can't do that since it's patently fallacious.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 17:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

If something is truly verifiable it can't possibly be false. Cue the philosophical discussion! :-) It's worth pointing out that the term "verifiable" in Misplaced Pages jargon may differ from other definitions. If something is "verifiable" (in Misplaced Pages jargon), then it's conceivable that it's still false.. after all, reliable sources aren't always right. Anyway, you appear to be disagreeing with the meaning behind the WP:V policy, not merely the choice of wording. Mlm42 (talk) 18:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

You are basically agreeing that the examples are valid......that the wording makes the policy get misapplied/misquoted. North8000 (talk) 18:22, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Am I missing something? I think the policy is being applied correctly in these examples.. Mlm42 (talk) 18:28, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

What I meant was: "All of the above statements appear to me to imply that the people making them think that it's permissible to have untrue statements in Misplaced Pages articles as long as they're "verifiable"." are examples of the effects of the problematic wording. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "permissible" and by "untrue statements". For example, if there is reason to doubt a sourced statement, then one way to hedge is to say "Source X said that Y is true". Even if some editors "are 100% sure" that Y is false, that alone is not grounds for removal (maybe this is the point you are disagreeing with?). Specifying the source is one valid way to let an untrue statement into Misplaced Pages.. after all "Source X said Y is true" could be true without Y being true.

I'm still not convinced the wording is problematic.. the disagreements here appear to be with the meaning of the policy, rather than just the wording in the opening sentence. Mlm42 (talk) 20:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm backing off from efforts to change the first sentence. I just wanted to not leave the examples section hanging.

On your last sentence, they always say "the test of how a law is written isn't what a good cop can do with it, it's what a bad cop can do with it. Since in Misplaced Pages, everybody is made a cop, so that test is even more appropriate here. North8000 (talk) 21:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea where in this discussion / these discussions is the best place to jump in! So I'm just jumping in here ... When I came back to WP after a long break, I had real trouble with the idea of verifiability, not truth. Something had been written in a couple of articles which, although the information came from an obviously 'reliable researcher' (and I'm talking about world-renowned in their field), may not have been the whole truth. There were mutterings from other people who were concerned that the researcher may have wandered into a simple error, and (to my view) those 'mutterings' had a very great deal of validity. But - I couldn't include them in WP, because as at that time - and to the best of my knowledge, still - the places where the mutterings occured weren't as 'reliable' as the published scientific paper. Even though one could point out the obvious, from photographs, to do that fell foul of the WP:OR rule. It's likely that the 'mutterers' are speaking truth - very likely indeed - but as yet WP can publish nothing that challenges the original researcher's published paper, no matter how true the challenge may be. It was very hard for me to understand this;; so I'd be all for some kind of change in the wording. I simply have no idea what that change would be. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 04:23, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

A possible middle ground?

Well this has been out three days. As indicated, the "wide net" includes a substantial time frame for folks who are not the regulars here to have a chance to find out about this and weigh in; I imagine we get the regulars quicker and the non-regulars later. There is a common theme from each of the "sides", on the support side it's that we don't want policy to say we want "not truth", and the "oppose" folks say that phrase is an embedded and useful way to reinforce the verifiability requirement.

One of the "oppose" folks (Tryptofish, 17:44 12 June in discussion section), endorsed by another of the "oppose" folks (Nuujinn) put forth the idea of keeping that phrase, immediately followed by a statement (my interpretation) that such does not mean that Misplaced Pages does not seek accuracy. Should we consider this possibility as a possible "middle ground" which could also provide a long term resolution of this? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I note that, below, there is opposition to new proposals, so I certainly don't want to tread on that. But, whenever editors here feel ready, it might be useful to discuss just one sentence to add, without taking anything existing away. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Well we went through a full process to get proposals down to one before going out for this, just to avoid such complexities. I was thinking of it as more of a re-direction of the above process. I guess the proposal could be to leave the sentence as is and immediately after it something like "However, accuracy IS a goal of Misplaced Pages". I was thinking that if a few of the ardent folks from both sides say they like this, we'd float a proposal to both put this in and abort the main RFC. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

North, this has become disruptive. You can't keep filing RfCs, abort them when they don't go your way, file a new one, rinse and repeat. The community supports "verifiability, not truth." Even if everyone on this page were to vote to remove it, it would be meaningless, just as a small group couldn't vote on the NPOV page to remove that WP's articles must be neutral.

Please do as people are asking on this page, and either let the issue drop or open a subpage for further discussion. But we need several months of no more polls or proposals about the first sentence (or second sentence or footnotes that might dilute it, etc etc). This talk page is for discussing the meaning of the policy, usually for the benefit of editors who arrive here with questions. That has barely been possible recently because the page has essentially been hijacked. SlimVirgin 21:57, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

What I was talking about was based on keeping "verifiability, not truth". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Slim, I consider your characterization of the situation and my actions to be nasty and inaccurate. We're had a lot of chaos on this topic over the last several months. All that I did was propose and assist a process to methodically and calmly bring it to a real conclusion, one way or another. That was for people to brainstorm and list proposals, then pick ONE which would go to this stage, and then cast wide enough of a net to get it settled either way. I had a proposal in which did not make the final cut; the main RFC proposal IS NOT MINE, it was somebody else's that emerged from that process. Now I was raising the idea of using Tryptofish's proposal as a compromise. North8000 (talk) 22:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

It has been brought to a conclusion: there is no consensus for these changes. Maybe revisit the issue in another 6 months? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Folks were saying it needs a wide net, which is both time and places. It's only been three days. I think that we should make sure we do that. I just hope that it either clearly passes or clearly fails, I personally don't want to revisit it even in 6 months. Since the process was organized & methodical (unlike the previous random stuff) if we let it play out, I think that most folks on both sides of the issue would be more likely consider it settled under a good process. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:39, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Fine, you have started an RfC, so please let it complete itself without trying to ask yet another question. SlimVirgin 22:55, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Conclusion

It has been about 3 days since the last vote. I think that the process was methodical and proper-looking enough so that it addresses both the specific proposal and the question of changing the core wording of the first sentence. With a near-dead heat by count (17 support, 18 oppose) this means that there is no consensus to change it, and no consensus to keep as-is. But I think that this means that the status quo prevails. As the one who sort of herded the process leading to this, this was disappointing to me, but also reassuring that it was arrived at via a process that was sufficiently broad and methodical, and I think without significant flaws or bias. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for a change in the first sentence #2

Threaded discussion

• It doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. It perpetuates many of the flaws in the current version—the poor writing, the unnecessary circumlocution, the wordy passive hortatives in place of simple active imperatives, the word "threshold" in legalese (you might as well say "whereas" and "hereinbefore"), and in fact all the problems associated with the way this policy has grown: written by a committee with widely differing agendas about its function and purpose, developed by stealth-edits that are subsequently declared unchallengeable, revised in the light of hard cases, and now followed unthinkingly by the unthinking. You could fix it to an extent just by simplifying the circumlocutions ("be able to be verified"→"be verifiable"; "not every edit which is verifiable"→"not every verifiable edit"; "editors should consider"→"please consider", and so on). But unfortunately, sheer RFC-fatigue is going to mean the Anti-Change Party wins this one. I think that realistically, there's no way to remove the worst phrases from this policy for another few months, and any change will have to be accomplished by stealth-edits, the way so much of this policy was written in the first place.—S Marshall T/C 23:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

It's an unfortunate result of the double standard.North8000 (talk) 11:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Are these expressions of Good Faith? --Nuujinn (talk) 14:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

All material included in Misplaced Pages must be able to be verified in a published, reliable source.

The problem here is that you often can't verify statments from single sources. So, "a published, reliable source", should be replaced by "published, reliable sources"

It is not sufficient for information to be true; editors must be able to check that a reputable source says it is true.

Here the problem is that verifiability does not mean that you can find a reputable source that explicitely says that a statement is true. What often happens is that the statement can be verfied from an entire body of literature. This is is often the case for scientific topics. It's not for nothing that it takes some years of study at university to become a scientist. Uncontroversial accepted facts are often not verifiable by direct citations to a source where the fact is presented verbatim.

Verifiability is a threshold for inclusion--a necessary condition which must be met before other considerations come into play. Not every edit which is verifiable must be included; other considerations regarding style and neutrality—length, relevance, weight, point of view, availability of better sources, notability of the subject, and editorial discretion—are important. Editors should consider all aspects of a source and its context before using it, so long as they do not engage in original research when doing so.

This looks ok. but only with the more liberal definition of verifiability. Count Iblis (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The RFC bot is choking because there's more than one open RFC on this page. This one isn't being listed (it's listing the other twice instead), so I'm disabling the RFC tag in the hope that the other one will be correctly listed (once, and with the text rather than just the link). Keeping this one "open" isn't having the desired effect of getting it listed, so turning it off isn't going to make this any less invisible than it already is.

Harej would be happy to hear from anyone who wants to help identify and fix the coding problem; see WT:RFC. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Notability section

WP:Verifiability#Notability says (in its entirety):

Template:Quote box4

This appears to confuse a few people, who apparently believe that "found" is supposed to mean "found typed up underneath the ==References== section heading", not "found in a library or at PubMed or in an academic journal".

I think it might be clearer if we expressed it this way (change underlined):

Template:Quote box4

This emphasizes that an article if someone happened to type up only a non-independent source into the article—although perfectly good third-party sources have been published in the real world, and the subject really is notable—then the article does not need to be deleted for "failing WP:V" merely because some newbie typed up the weaker sources instead of the stronger sources (or even no sources: Did you know that Cancer—a WP:VITAL article—didn't get its first proper citation until nearly three years after its creation?). Such an article would very much need to be improved, but WP:Deletion is not clean up.

The change maintains the important point that if third-party sources don't exist, then the article absolutely deserves to get deleted.

This has the additional virtue of emphasizing that the sources have to be WP:Published, so the old diary you found in Great-grandma's attic doesn't count. What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that would be a very helpful change, and support it. I more clearly says what we mean. Blueboar (talk) 11:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. North8000 (talk) 12:04, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

As always, I oppose the use of the term "third-party" and prefer something like this:

If no reliable sources have been published on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it; if the topic is a person, organization, or cause, at least one source should be independent.

My reason is that "third-party" is a term more applicable to contract law than writing. As an example, a source published by the United States Geological Survey in the 21st century about a U.S. government sponsored expedition in the 19th century is most likely independent, because the career of the author(s) will not experience any pressure to reach certain conclusions about such an old topic. Yet, since both are part of the U.S. government, the 21st century source is a first party with respect to the 19th century expedition. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:08, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with WAID's proposal, though the same wording with "found" appears in the lead of the WP:Notability guideline, so probably worth changing it there as well (and even more so than here; this isn't really the page for this topic).--Kotniski (talk) 14:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:V is content policy, see WP:N#Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article, which links Category:Wikipedia_content_policy.  WP:Deletion policy is the policy for WP:N.  Unscintillating (talk) 16:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

How about:-

Template:Quote box4

This seems to address all the concerns?—S Marshall T/C 16:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

The premise of this section, that the sources need not be "typed up under the ==references==, I think actually is the point to be discussed.  For a diff that cites WP:V#Notability please see this comment.  I think we have an AfD problem in progress here at Misplaced Pages where one source of the problem is because we allow articles to be created without citing references.  I personally think there is a difference between a poorly cited article and an unreferenced article, and that this is where WP:V and content policy intersect with deletion/notability policy.  And that this is the meaning of the paragraph in question, if the article is so lacking in content verifiability that the WP:BURDEN reduces the content to the empty set, then the article is deletable.

So perhaps we can agree that the intent of the proposals here is to weaken content policy by confounding it with deletion/notability policy; and in doing so encourage more articles unacceptably without sources, and more volunteer effort to remove the unwanted articles.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:35, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Articles need to be sourceable, Unscintillating. They don't need to actually be sourced unless they're challenged or likely to be challenged, or unless they're newly-created BLPs. It's best practice to source your writing but, for uncontroversial material, it's not required. That's what this version says and it's what WP:V has said for a long time before that too.—S Marshall T/C 11:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

What we are discussing is the difference between "must" and "should". "Must" is a requirement... "Should" is a strong recommendation. The existence of sources that discuss a topic (or support a specific statement) is a "must"... actually citing them in the article is a "should"... unless challenged or likely to be challenged (at which point citation becomes a "Must"). Blueboar (talk) 12:48, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

And direct quotations. We have four kinds of information that always require citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

The quality of sources often varies between topic domains. While wp:NOT#NEWS, we routinely create articles on major events well in advance of the publication of the best-quality sources on those events. Aviation accident articles are clear cases. The single best source in a mature article on one of these is usually the final report of the official investigation, which often isn't published for two or three years after the event. Further, these reports are (in most countries) produced by a team of investigators and representatives of interested parties (operator, owner, manufacturers, victims' national agencies, etc.) precisely to provide complete and balanced input into those publications. Does this "independent sources" mean we should exclude them? This would badly weaken such articles. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes the topic is not controversial, but simply obscure. For example, there's an international effort to record the oral history of ancient cultures. While this process is taking place, there are no reliable sources yet, because they are still being developed. In the meantime, as the information becomes available, it is published in blogs (unreliable sources). Should Misplaced Pages wait for reliable sources before it can be included? A specific example is traditional Ukrainian headdress like Ochipok, Bavnytsia and Caul (headgear). Bavnytsia and Caul don't show up on a Google search, and yet they are actual items of clothing currently being studied by historians. And when they write articles, they write in general terms and don't mention every item by name. USchick (talk) 16:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Fraid it'll have to wait for the scholarly treatment. Misplaced Pages isn't a good place to publish cutting-edge research or groundbreaking new thought; it's a place for regurgitating the concepts and thoughts that experts have already exhaustively discussed, analysed and published.—S Marshall T/C 16:43, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

A problem with Marshall's formulation, "If no reliable independent sources have been published about a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article about it", is that some topics, such as algebra, have no one affiliated with the topic in the same sense that a public relations firm is affiliated with its clients. If we don't exclude topics line algebra, where the meaning of "independent" that we are interested in just does not apply, editors will come up with some meaning for "independent" and apply it with unpredictable results. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• If nobody's affiliated then everyone's independent, surely.—S Marshall T/C 16:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• I agree, but some people will insist that since the policy applies the word "independent" to all topics, it must have a non-trivial meaning for all topics. What those people will decide the meaning is is unpredictable, and unpredictability is undesirable. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• If that's your view, then I would direct your attention to User:WhatamIdoing's proposal to merge Misplaced Pages:Third-party sources into Misplaced Pages:Independent sources. With this proposal, it's WhatamIdoing's reasoning that I'm following.—S Marshall T/C 17:16, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• The idea for the merge was originally from User:Rrburke, although I'm the person who posted the proposal. Any resulting merge would need to address the awkward corner case of an "outsider" (third party) with a conflict of interest (non-independent), but I think editors can handle that nuance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:24, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to Jc3s5h's worry over the common meaning of wikt:third party rather than the original, strict legal meaning. However, I picked "third-party" in this instance because it's what we've already got. IMO the discussion about "third party" vs "independent" (or both, if you prefer) is something that should be handled completely separately from the proposed change. The proposal is solely to change the rather vague can be found to the more precise and informative have been published. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

So far as that goes, why not go whole hog with are cited instead? Or simply:

Template:Quote box4

The sooner we make this clear, the sooner we reduce the burden of article deletions. Editors will rapidly change their behaviour to cite first and add statements later. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:53, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• That's such a major change to the policy that even I think it would require a full RFC.—S Marshall T/C 19:31, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Yup. It will also require a more clearly accepted definition at wp:Independent sources, currently an essay. But is it wrong in principle? LeadSongDog come howl! 19:44, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, I personally think it's wrong in principle.—S Marshall T/C 21:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
• I also think it's wrong in principle. While I'd be happy to see that 100% of our articles contained citations to high-quality sources, we should not actually delete an article merely because no one happens to have typed up a citation to a proper source yet. Unreferenced articles require more work, but deleting apparently good, verifiABLE information because so far no one has bothered to type the name of a citation on the page does not seem like a way of improving Misplaced Pages. WP:There is no deadline, not even for adding citations.
  Additionally, this section is about WP:Notability, and notability does not control content—not even to the extent of requiring citations in an article. Notability is "Should Misplaced Pages have an article on this subject?", not "Should Misplaced Pages have this particular version?" Cancer is an appropriate, encyclopedic, notable subject for Misplaced Pages. It was a notable subject for the nearly three years after its creation and before it got its first proper bibliographic citations, and it would remain a notable subject even if someone deleted all of its citations tomorrow. "Misplaced Pages should have an article about cancer" is true no matter what's actually on the page at Cancer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

In this early version, Cancer was what we would now call a wp:List-class article. Unless I am mistaken, such lists were deliberately not directly cited back then and were not required to establish notability. While I won't second-guess what the project's editors at the time were doing, today our practices and editing environment have evolved significantly. We have far more vandalism and spam to deal with. Accepting articles without a basis in sources to establish notability (however they are cited) simply begs for problems we don't need. The need for an identified source to verify notability would also prevent articles being created solely as wp:OR. LeadSongDog come howl! 06:09, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

And one of the first versions of Cancer is what we would now call "a badly written disambiguation page". Our styles and quality standards certainly have changed—but one thing that has never changed is the fact that cancer (the class of diseases) has always been a subject that qualified for a page on Misplaced Pages. The quality of the actual page we have had at any given point in time (and IMO that particular page has ranged from abysmal to mediocre) does not change the fact that the subject was always notable.

I do not believe that requiring people to name sources will have any real effect on made-up articles. If I'm completely making up the text, I can make up something that looks like a citation, too. If it's not a hoax, it's not hard to find a source that says something vaguely related to the subject, or to cite a source on some tangential point (which I've seen done repeatedly: e.g., a long article on some alt-med product, that also cites an independent, third-party, high-quality reliable source on some passing point about basic anatomy). Most of our major OR problems already come with citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My concern isn't that the content of the article is based on OR, but rather the existence. If someone had challenged that initial version of Cancer it would have been trivial to provide a suitable published source that demonstrated the topic has been noted by others and so should be notable in our meaning of the word. Hell, there are entire families of journals on that topic. The fact that nobody challenged it simply demonstrates that the notability of cancer was "The sky is often blue" obvious, not that it was difficult to source. A policy change of this nature would not create a new burden on editors (just change when it is faced) and would start articles on a more constructive path. It would substantially assist trash removal efforts to boot. Where's the downside? LeadSongDog come howl! 17:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

That prompted me to check: Special:search/"result was delete" prefix:Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cancer and compare it to: Special:search/"result was keep" prefix:Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cancer

It seems nobody ever tried AFD on that exact article, but several others went through the hoops before deletion.LeadSongDog come howl! 18:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I do not understand how creating an article—but not the contents of the created page—can violate NOR. NOR is about the contents on the page. NOR has nothing to say about whether the page should exist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Well... I suppose an entire topic could be the result of original synthesis... to give an example: I have been working a bit on the ] article. This is an article about a notable fringe theory. Now... within that theory are several sub-theories. One of them is the idea that Freemasons are plotting to take over the world... another is that various world leaders are Reptilian aliens. As far as I know, no one has ever combined these two sub-theories (saying that Freemasons are Reptilians from outer space). Now, let us assume that someone created an article entitled "List of Reptilian Freemasons". The entire idea behind this topic is based on an editor's original synthesis, so it would fail NOR even without any content. And since no sources exist to support the article, it would not pass WP:NOTE. Not sure if this is what LeadSong has in mind, however. Blueboar (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:Deletion policy#Reasons for deletion lists:

• Articles that cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms, original theories and conclusions, and articles that are themselves hoaxes (but not articles describing notable hoaxes)

Unscintillating (talk) 12:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting example, though I was thinking something a bit more mundane. For instance, from the above list, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cancerslug resulted from some editor's decision to create an article about a subject that lacked any reliable sourcing. There are entire categories of corporate, product, book, band, or vanity topics, that are routinely overrun with unsourcable articles. Editor X may "know" something about the topic, having read about it on the website run by or for the company, the publisher's agent, the band, etc. and decides "WP needs an article on this, I know they must be notable, I'll be Bold." Right there, X has committed wp:OR, often with the best of intentions. But until someone spots that the article has no source (or worse, unreliable sources, perhaps even in an obscure language) it isn't even challenged. Some editors see it, but let it go. After months or years go by, someone finally flags it for AFD and we have the usual last-minute scramble to try and find some (any) real sources, before concluding that there are none. Yet the whole ugly process is unnecessary, wasteful of editors time, and detrimental to the quality of WP. So I ask again, what is the downside to requiring a reliable source first? LeadSongDog come howl! 04:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Your premise is false: if you know something because it's on the band's website, then adding that something to Misplaced Pages does not violate NOR. See the second sentence of that policy: "The term "original research" (OR) is used on Misplaced Pages to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—for which no reliable published source exists." You may also be interested in the footnote at the end of that sentence: "By "exists", the community means that the reliable source must have been published and still exist—somewhere in the world, in any language, whether or not it is reachable online—even if no source is currently named in the article. Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy—so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source."

Adding that information does not violate NOR in any way. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The idea that an band, company, or whatever could be Notable solely because it runs a website is simply preposterous. If our rules accept that they need to change or we are well and truly sunk as a credible resource. And yes, selecting one such website in preference to a gazillion others does constitute original research unless we have some authority (both independent of the subject and independent of Misplaced Pages) which gives us a reason for doing so. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The information—say, that there are three members in the band—would be verifiable even if no other source had ever taken the least bit of notice of the group. If you type "There are three people in this band" into a Misplaced Pages article, and it happens that some page on MyBrandNewGarageBand.com says that there really are three people in this band—even if that is the only source in the history of the world that has ever mentioned this band, and even if you do not type the name of your source into the article—then that material is 100% compliant with WP:NOR. (Note key phrase: "with WP:NOR". That is not the same thing as "with all of Misplaced Pages's many content, sourcing, and inclusion policies and guidelines".)

Such a source would not justify Misplaced Pages having a whole article dedicated to the band (=the province of the Notability guideline), but that's a matter of failing WP:N, not a matter of failing WP:NOR. Many things that easily pass NOR deserve deletion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Well yes, we are discussing a better N section of wp:V, right? The point is that articles should not be brought into existence based on zero verifiable reliably sourced evidence, such as would be the case where an editor works solely from a SPS. We currently allow editors to commit OR in deciding a subject is N without suitable evidence to support that decision. Our current wording permits it to happen. My proposed wording would not.LeadSongDog come howl! 08:11, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

No, failing to provide evidence of sources does not violate NOR. Failing to provide evidence of sources never violates NOR, no matter what the purpose of providing the source is. You can only violate NOR if no source in the entire world has ever said what you are saying.

Naming your sources proves that you are not violating NOR, but failing to name your sources does not, in itself, create a violation of NOR. At the very most, it creates a question in other people's minds about whether there might be a violation—but if the source has ever been published, then there's no actual violation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:02, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

This is in a sense the long-running conflict between 'verified and verifiable. A person may write an article out of his head, for which there are in fact sources, even though they may not be aware they exist. the article meets WP:V if sources are findable. Independent in this case means independent of the person writing the article; Reliable here means sufficient to reasonably establish that the material has an actual basis in the real world. (That's not the same as sources for notability, where independent means independent of the subject and reliable means a sufficient presumption of accuracy and discriminating editorial responsibility.) The basis in the real world may be false, or imaginary--the fact that people believe it or say it is sufficient for WP:V. For example, an author for whose work no traces can be found in the customary sources does not meet WP:V. A writer who has written one self-published book recorded in WorldCat but with no published comment except on Amazon, meets WP:V, but certainly not WP:N. The difficulty comes with writers in areas where there are no usable customary sources; no matter how impressive a case can be made for their importance based on personal knowledge, unless a source can be found, they will not meet WP:V. DGG ( talk ) 16:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

As my quick scan indicates nobody has actually objected to the proposed change (although two people have other definite ideas about how to further improve both the section and Misplaced Pages's inclusion standards), I have made the small change to from "can be found" to "have been published".

The other ideas may be worth discussing separately. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, people seemed to lose interest in the original set of proposals on July 5, when the discussion switched from weakening content policy, to strengthening content policy and reducing the burden of deletion.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:34, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

"Not truth" discussion

Right now on CNN. Count Iblis (talk) 01:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Link? Unable to find it on Google news or CNN's own Misplaced Pages keyword search. Jclemens (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I can't find it either. However, I'm a little late to this party and didn't know about this until I saw a thread on S marshal's talk page about this while responding to something else there. I can see both sides to this. Some of the old timers have probably noticed that almost every POV pusher who has come along has claimed to bear "the truth" and I have no doubt that many of them think we should just AGF and accept their "truth". The first sentence is a polite way of telling them that what they offer, even if it's the "truth" is not enough. It should be possible for any reader to click those little blue numbers and decide for themselves if it's the "truth".

On the other hand "accuracy" is important too. It's quite possible for something to be "verifiable" at one time and later found to be weapons grade bullshit. We shouldn't be telling people that it's not important and that's what the first sentence might imply to some.

I think there should be a way of making both points to newcomers and others. I don't know what that might be but one idea might be to remove "truth" from the first sentence of this policy and expand WP:VNT into a guideline. This way we can both emphasize that accuracy is important but still preserve the old but important "verifiability not truth" meme and have something that isn't "just an essay" to point newcomers and POV pushers to when they claim to bear the "truth". --Ron Ritzman (talk) 03:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea. I'm one of those who has been fighting against removing 'not truth' from the lead. However, I'm open to doing so if Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth is made into a guideline, with the provision that it not be in turn attacked by those who have been campaigning for the removal of 'not truth' from the lead here. LK (talk) 05:46, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The trouble with such compromises is that, as any proper logician or mathematician will tell you, a compromise between a wrong solution and a correct solution is another kind of wrong solution. My position is that we need to remove "not truth" from this policy without elevating VNT to a guideline. It's a sin against the basic purpose of an encyclopaedia to publish known error, so we need to tell the truth. To actually instruct editors that they need not tell the truth is simply the wrong approach.—S Marshall T/C 07:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that, whatever we do, we have to make sure that we're covering all the points in a way which is easy to understand for the people who are most likely to misunderstand it. How we actually word these things can have a major impact on how readily they're followed. This means that, ideally, the absolute simplest way of being accurate needs to be worked on. The purpose of a lesson isn't to show how erudite the teacher is - it's to get the lesson across to everyone! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 07:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, it strikes me that we need to merge WP:VNT and WP:TRUE back where they belong, into WP:V. Or just delete them, if we think WP:V is the consensus version.—S Marshall T/C 11:22, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

We have had multiple discussions, and even formal RFCs on this issue in the last few months. Please, stop beating this particular dead horse. It is getting to the point of being disruptive. Blueboar (talk) 12:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Ron Ritzman's remark shows that there's still an appetite for discussing it among previously uninvolved editors, Blueboar. Please stop trying to dictate what other users discuss on this talk page. That kind of controlling behaviour is quite unacceptable.—S Marshall T/C 13:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

It's an important, current, pervasive problem. On the last specific proposal for changing the first sentence there was no consensus to change nor consensus to keep so it stayed with the status quo. Most likely if someone came up with a change which at least mitigated the problem without changing the first sentence it would pass. How 'bout adding a "radical" :-) statement like this just after the infamous sentence: "Verifiability helps achieve accuracy" North8000 (talk) 13:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not trying to dictate anything... I am merely pointing out that the idea of dropping the "not truth" wording has already been discussed (repeatedly)... and that the idea has been rejected (repeatedly). To continue to push for it smacks of WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. If we are going to resolve this issue, we have to find another way to do it... something that can gain a clear consensus. Blueboar (talk) 13:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification. On a separate note on the later part of your first sentence, If you are calling the lack of a consensus "rejected", the the idea of keeping the first sentence as-is has also been "rejected". North8000 (talk) 13:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

But I think that the reality is that I don't think that we're going to change the first sentence so we should fix the problem by other means. North8000 (talk) 14:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think it's been "rejected" at all, Blueboar. I think, rather, that there is no consensus in favour of it—an important distinction because there is also no real consensus in favour of the current version. The reason the "not truth" phrase remains in the policy is not because there is a consensus to support it, but because on Misplaced Pages, a lack of consensus results in stagnation. In other words, SlimVirgin's wording from 2005 remains because of her first-mover advantage rather than because it really enjoys widespread support. It's unfortunate that sheer RFC-fatigue will maintain this unsatisfactory position for the time being, but there's no reason why this should prevent discussion on the talk page.—S Marshall T/C 14:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

What about linking Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth in the three words? That way, the meaning can be fully explained elsewhere. Cambalachero (talk) 15:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• I get the feeling that discussion in this talk has a tendency to go round and round. I really believe that not only will "not truth" be retained, but it should be retained. But the accuracy distinction is an excellent one. Lest it be lost, please see #A possible middle ground?, above. I think that might be the way to an acceptable fix. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The discussion I was referring to was the one about the verdict in the Casey Anthony case. There was quite an interesting discussion on CNN about this with lawyers, a former judge and a few prosecutors. It had quite strong parallels with the "not truth" discussions we've had here. Someone in fact mentioned that in general judical cases are not about the truth, but some others disagreed about that. Count Iblis (talk) 16:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm new to this discussion; maybe we need more 'new' voices in, to see if a consensus for anything can be achieved with some more and / or newer voices? I can see the frustration in here, on both sides. We all need to remember that each of us is actually trying to make things better; each of us is acting in good faith for something that we genuinely believe in. It's very hard when people get frustrated, impassioned, all-around fed-up, and all the rest! But - have faith, we're actually all attempting to work towards improvement of some kind.

I personally think that there's room for merges, room for change, and all the rest. I don't think that we necessarily need multiple pages to cover the subject - the fewer places we're directing people to, the better, on the whole. But we do need to keep discussions going - sometimes something new just turns up in a discussion and everyone says "Why didn't we think of this before?"; sometimes consensus changes simply because something's been presented in a slightly different, more clear, way; sometimes it's just new voices - but, whatever it is, if end up with improvement, it's a good thing. After all, we're (presumably) all working consistently towards trying to make things better? So - take a few deep breaths, have a beer / cup of tea / whatever, chill out a little, and recall, whenever we get frustrated, that we're actually all on the same team! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 05:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that a lot of editors interpret verifiability, not truth as something like verifiability, regardless of accuracy or verifiability, not factuality. In my opinion, what really matters isn't so much that the misleading formulation is changed, but rather that we document unambiguously that this is not the intended meaning. So far, whenever I tried to explain this to one of those verifiability warriors, I was told that I am just plain wrong and don't understand Misplaced Pages. E.g., if the Register claims that A happened in Misplaced Pages, and the Misplaced Pages page history, in accordance with what respected members of our community remember, proves that the opposite is true, then we are still under an obligation to state as a fact that A happened even though we know it's false and libels someone. I am not making this up, this was a real dispute in which even an admin argued for libelling a former arbitrator because in his opinion verifiability in a purely technical sense trumps what we know reliably though not from a reliable source. It's a blessing that the Register's lie wasn't picked up by other reliable sources while we were repeating it without qualification, under the assumption that Misplaced Pages must be the most reliable and most direct source for such claims about Misplaced Pages, and that Sam Blacketer was not interested in suing the Wikimedia Foundation.

Regardless of any definite outcome, these discussions serve an important purpose. If they had happened a few years earlier, I would have had something to point to in previous instances in order to educate the fundamentalists that their interpretation is a radical minority interpretation. Better still, as more and more editors participate in this discussion and develop their own approaches to what verifiability, not truth means, general awareness of the problem increases and it becomes more and more likely that editors inclined towards fundamentalism are corrected at an early stage, and that in case of an escalation the number of editors who defend common sense and the integrity of the encyclopedia reaches critical mass more quickly than happened in the past.

That's not to say that an explanation in the policy itself wouldn't be a good thing, too. Hans Adler 07:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I can fully support continued attempts to better explain what we mean by "verifiability, not truth". I strongly oppose the idea of removing "verifiability, not truth". Blueboar (talk) 13:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it's an important concept and what I first suggested was only one possible approach to differentiating between "truth (accuracy)" and "truth (belief)". Another idea would be to change it to "verifiability not woo woo" but I don't think that will fly :) --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:29, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Thus, I think it would be a good approach to keep the existing sentence about "not truth", but to follow it with a new sentence to better explain what it actually means. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:06, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like an OK compromise. Let's work on it. North8000 (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Well, I don't agree. What'll happen is that editors will quote "Verifiability, not truth" at each other and disregard the subsequent clarifying sentence. The best approach is to remove the words "not truth" from the policy.—S Marshall T/C 14:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• I agree with you that the "not truth" in that first sentence should go. Probably the most damaging two words in all of Misplaced Pages. But it doesn't look like it's going to happen in the near future. So an explanatory sentence after that to reduce the harm that "not truth" does is a "half way" idea. I would argue that a small step forward is better than none at all. But you could also argue that the small step forward could reduce the impetus for the bigger step forward of removing "not truth". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:51, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that it won't happen in the near future. I think before making changes, it would be best to watch what happens with the alarmingly mistitled "cults" case that Arbcom are about to accept, and be informed by the inevitable RFCs on that. The case is basically about misleading content on Misplaced Pages, with specific reference to our coverage of certain right-wing US politicians (be it allegedly highly laudatory, as with Kenneth Dickson, or allegedly highly pejorative, as with Rick Santorum). The point I'm coming to is that the infamous "not truth" clause is quite arguably one of the most enabling things for editors who wish to write misleading content. I hope that in the light of that case, there will be some well-considered edits made to our policies.—S Marshall T/C 15:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm afraid that such ArbCom cases on disputes on politics pages will make it even harder to get rid of "not truth". We have to consider how we got stuck with this "not truth" clause in the first place. Obviously, on those topics were "truth" is not easy to determine objectively and opinion as published in sources is the only thing that's verifiable, you tend to have the most disputes. These disputes influence the policies we have on Misplaced Pages. Then on other topics were truth is a more important factor to consider than simple direct verifiability (e.g. in case of scientific topics), you have far less disputes so the editors on these pages have had far little say on the shaping of the policies (the main influence here has been on dealing with fringe science, pseudoscience, POV pushing on politically charged issues like climate change denial, etc.)

As a result, the policies have evolved such that the normal editing practices on certain types of scientific articles are now in conflict with a strict interpretation of some policies. The best way to fix things, i.m.o. is to draft completely new texts for policies instead of trying to incrementally change things. The problem with the latter apprach is that the text of the policy pages have evolved to become optimally adapted to dealing with problems on politics pages, so any small change will make things worse from the perspective of the regulars here. Count Iblis (talk) 15:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Another angle on this is that a source can be judged unreliable for particular items of information based on whether editors think it is true. Such an editorial judgement of unreliability negates verifiability and due weight and justifies suppression of the source and the info it contains. See currently ongoing discussion about this here. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Since the world is full of wp:"reliable" sources that are sometimes real-world-unreliable and wrong on the topic at hand, it is a normal practice (on non-contentious articles) for editors to try to figure out which ones are right and use them. This is only heresy per the "not accuracy("truth")" train wreck religion; exercising editorial judgment to not use wrong sources is how good articles are written and does not violate actual policy. (unless there is a pov question in which case wp:npov says that the wrong ones also stay in) But on contentious articles this whole process breaks down, and the poor wording of the first sentence is one of the contributors to this problem. North8000 (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

As opposed to the train wrecks we will get by removing "not truth"--from people who will argue endless that we cannot use a reliable source because it is not true, and that we can use an unreliable source because it is true. Remember, whatever we do here has to work everywhere on WP. --Nuujinn (talk) 21:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The words "train wreck" are hyperbole and the words "we can use an unreliable source because it is true" are a straw man.  As a logical fallacy, the defeat of the straw man does not actually lead to the conclusion stated, which basicly is saying that POV truth-pushers can only be controlled at Misplaced Pages with the force of a particular two-word figure of speech.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• Whereas if we say "verifiability, not truth" then we get the situation we have at the moment, where policy says that whatever can be sourced can be said. The trouble is that the sources we call "reliable" get it wrong all the time, and some of them don't get it wrong by accident. I mean, the BBC are one of the world's more reliable sources, but even they faked footage of child labour in a hatchet-job "exposé" of fashion retailer Primark. And I dread to think how much of Misplaced Pages is sourced to Fox News.—S Marshall T/C 21:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Nuujinn, unless you are saying that something being sourced is a sufficient condition to force inclusion, then "we cannot use a reliable source because it is not true" is something that they can do right now, and rightly so. And, for challenged material, getting rid of the problematic words would not change that wp:ver says that wp:rs'ing is required to keep in challenged material. North8000 (talk) 23:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

No, I am saying that I think deleting use of "not truth" will create more problems than it will solve. I will also say that this horse has died, sunk into the earth, become fossilized, put on display in a natural science museum where it has been around long enough to have become dusty. By continuing this line of discussion for months when it is absolutely clear that there is no consensus for the change, some editors have, in my opinion, become disruptive to the discussions here. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:13, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Do you have an example of where the two words avoided a problem?  Sorry, but we do not have a consensus to not change this wording—hyperbole is not a substitute for the force of reason.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Just to keep terminology straight, since actually reliable sources often don't qualify as wp:reliable sources, and wp:reliable sources are often unreliable or wrong, when referring to a source defined as meeting wp:rs criteria, we should clarify that it is a "wp:reliable source", a distinction from "reliable source". North8000 (talk) 23:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for that perspective.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, it has been a long time since I've contributed to this page or the WP:RS/N so maybe Blueboar can correct me if I'm wrong–a "wp:reliable source" is not something that is inherent to a particular source, the NY Times is not inherently considered a wp:RS for anything stated in it no matter what, policy/guidelines are clear that a RS is only reliable for facts that fall under what is considered to be the source's primary area of expertise. You can't take Scientific American or Nature magazines if they give the wrong birthday for George Washington and claim now on the article that there is dispute on his birthday (which there kinda is because of the change in Gregorian/Julian calenders in Britian after he was born). Fox news is OFTEN taken to the RS/N for whether it is a RS in a certain case, and often it isnt an RS. The basic fundamental flaw with "verifiable, not truth" is that to be an RS you first have to be CORRECT. If you have one source that is an RS normally, and it has been shown by another RS to be false, then it is FALSE, you dont get to write in the article that there is a dispute or "one source says one thing another says another", it is simply false. Of course sometimes things arent so cut-and-dry and despite NOR sometimes we have to make judgement calls on these things. You may not want to remove "verifiable, not truth" but in the end TRUTH matters and since policy itself is clear that policy is not prescriptive but instead is descriptive ie- "policy describes best it can our current method of dealing with certain situations that have occurred already, use this as a guide to resolving future disputes, use with caution as specifics may vary and consensus may be different". So the question I pose is–is how is "verifiable, not truth" used by the Community in every day editing, once we resolve how the Community actually acts we can then describe it better in a policy or guideline. You (as in any editor) may not like how it is used, but policy is not about forcing Misplaced Pages into what you would prefer, it is about describing what is already done by the Community.Camelbinky (talk) 06:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a good point - sometimes even the most "reliable" of sources can contain something as simple as a typo (on dates of birth, for instance) which escapes the sub-editor before it goes into print. Reliable sources can (and do) make honest mistakes - so we do need, from time to time, to make that judgment call on whether or not to include that stuff. For the most part, it's obvious, but sometimes it's less obvious. I think we may have kinda wandered off the main route here, though - I'm still mulling over how to put the idea simply that, no matter how true something is, it does have to have been scholarly-accepted-as-true (or at least as a possible alternative truth) before we can include it in wp. It's closely linked to the WP:OR thing, too. True and verifiable obviously has to take priority over published but inaccurate and also over "newly true" but not yet published in an accurate and reliable source. The second two kinds of info aren't acceptable for inclusion - only the first is. How about verifiably true? Does that get any closer? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:11, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• This is a policy, so say simple things in accessible constructions. Begin with the basic idea, not the difficult cases. My ideal version of this policy might begin: "Before any kind of material may be included in Misplaced Pages, it must be verifiable. The best way to verify things is by an inline citation to a reliable source. In practice, not everything has to be verified, but if anyone challenges something, or if it seems likely to be challenged, please provide an inline citation to a reliable source..."

  After we've outlined the basic principles, we can go on to discuss the hard cases, such as how to deal with material that's verified but not true, or indeed true but not verified. But that first paragraph must be simple and clear.—S Marshall T/C 09:07, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. North8000 (talk) 10:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Let me apologize in advance for being both pedantic and long winded, I recognize these are some of my many faults.

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth" is simple, and to my way of thinking, is the basic principle we need to articulate. Unscintillating, I believe that, generally speaking, consensus is required to make a change, but not to leave things as they are, so in regard to "....we do not have a consensus to not change this wording", I don't think we have to have consensus to leave "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth" as it is. In terms of where it matters having "not truth" in the policy, I could say answer that it is an important phrase for any area where people disagree about what the truth is, which (IME) includes pretty much any article on the Balkans, politics, controversies (esp. if the sources are limited to eastern european or western asian news sources), fringe "science", or any of the other really messy areas where The Truth is articulated by believers. And when you dig into the topic, Truth is not a simple matter, see esp. Feynman's quote on that page.

But the real reason I like the phrase so much is it provides clear direction as to the mechanism we use to resolve disagreements about what to include and what to reject. Truth is contextual, not absolute. The sky is blue, but the sky is not blue. We will sometimes disagree about what is true in a given article, and the only way I can see to resolve such disagreements is to turn to reliable sources and use them to verify what is true in the context of that article, which is enough work as it is. "verifiability, not truth" gives us a simple, quick way to explain that one of the most important things we do here is not determine what is true, but what we can verify. It is an excellent phrase to slow down the tigers amoung us, the little black dress that is appropriate in all venues in WP when we are trying to determine what to add and what to remove. And since we have to use reliable sources to verify what we would call the truth in every case where there is a disagreement, we are really, in practice, talking about verifiability rather than truth even when we're trying to talk about what is true.

Now, I certainly endorse the notion that we can improve the wording and how we explain these concepts. I do sympathize with those who do not like the phrase, as there are many policies and guidelines containing phrases I'm not comfortable with. I'm also sure that many editors will disagree with what I've said here, and that's fine, as well-meaning productive editors often disagree. But if one examines the discussions above and in the archives, it seems pretty clear there's simply not consensus to remove the phrase. And many of us are quite honestly tired of talking about this--this issue has completely dominated this page for months now and is, I believe, interfering with our ability to get things done here. My suggestion is to let it go, and let's work on explaining it better. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you're weary of this discussion, Nuujinn, but I'd remark that nobody's changing the policy and nobody's forcing you to participate in the conversation. There is no disruption taking place here, or at least, not on the pro-change group's side. The reason the issue has completely dominated this page for months is because it's important, and because at a fundamental level there is genuinely no consensus about it.—S Marshall T/C 11:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

"...a fundamental level there is genuinely no consensus about it, yes, exactly, which is why we should drop it and move on. There is no sign of consensus on the horizon, the horse is dead. But I've said enough. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

S Marshall, IMHO you are absolutely correct in your comments about those two words, but as a compromise, what if, instead, we worked on an immediately-following sentence that mitigates the problems caused by those two words? North8000 (talk) 14:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• My position would remain that we need to remove "not truth" (and also change "threshold") from that first sentence, but I wouldn't try to stop you.—S Marshall T/C 16:11, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Requiring information to be "verifiably true" will be understood as meaning that editors get to remove anything that they believe to be untrue. We've already got this problem at hundreds of articles on controversial subjects. To give one minor example, I do not want to people with Multiple chemical sensitivity to feel any more empowered than they already do to delete the well-sourced material about the disputes over the condition. We already have enough problems with people re-writing the article to make it sound like the problem is definitely caused by nasty synthetic chemicals (or strictly a hoax, depending on the POV). Telling them that Misplaced Pages may not include information unless it's agreed to be True™ would result in a blank page at that article (and many others).

Now imagine what would happen at Climate change or Homeopathy. Well-sourced, well-written articles often include information that someone believes to be verifiable, but NOT true. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:08, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that the addition would need to be structural/operative, just as the problematic "not truth" wording is not structural/operative. It could be something as simple as adding "This does not intend the discourage seeking accuracy; verifiability helps achieve accuracy" North8000 (talk) 18:27, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Is this a Brainwave? "Not only true, but verifiably true"

(Apart from being an almost arbitrary break to help with readability / editability) ... Neither verifiability nor truth, on its own, is what we want. Something true but not verifiable, or 'verifiable' (as in, someone can find an apparently reliable source for it) but not true, is not what we want.

What we're looking for is "Not only true, but verifiably true". I think (but then I'm biased, as I thought of it) that that covers everything we need for a short catchphrase. I also know that loads of people shy away from any kind of wording-change in horror / terror / whatever, just because it's that dreaded thing, change. We do need a nice short catchphrase, and we do need it to cover as far as possible the concept of true and verifiably so, and we do need something that won;t just let people think they can wantonly delete sourced material, and so on. I think getting the whole thing in one catchphrase is totally impossible (hence why we have a whole page, etc.) Bu t I think my idea has merit, as an evolved catchphrase over 'Verifiability, not truth.' :o) What do you guys think? I;m trying to be constructive and look for a solution here. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:56, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Adding a bit - 'truth' changes; we all know it changes, as more research is done (in scientific fields) for instance, our concept of 'what is true' evolves. I think we need to get across this idea to people, so we're not seen as belittling anyone who knows 'the next truth' (one which has been researched but not yet published). Experiments can have unusual outcomes, so if an experiment with the 'wrong' outcome is published, it doesn't necessarily mean that its a 'new truth'. We could possibly, further down the page, cover something like that; there needs to be more than one experiment, by more than one set of people, ideally, for something to be accepted as a new truth. I can think of two examples straight away: schooldays, chemistry lab, making hydrogen. What's supposed to happen is that hydrogen collects in the test tube. What actually happens was that nothing happens, the chemistry teacher pokes the setup, the bung flies out and hits the chemistry teacher hard on the nose. Second: in a home trial on a large clan of cats, eight out of ten cats demonstrably actually preferred toffee-flavoured Angel Delight. Both truths - but not enoughly-true to take precedent over the more commonly accepted and expected truth! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:11, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, we don't care if anyhing is true or not. We present what ] propose as what they believe is the truth, and if they don't agree, we present different opinions. We don't do any research to find the truth (which would be WP:OR, we don't exclude sources which we believe are not the truth, even if they are "reliable". Claiming that articles should present what is true will only lead to people excluding what they believe is not true, no matter how many reliable sources there are. (Note: obvious errors, typo's, outdated info from reliable sources should of course be removed: that's not what this discussion is about). If some reliable sources claim that diisease X is caused by pollution, and other RS claim that it is caused by genetics, then both views should be included in the article: an editor who removes one of the two opinions because the other is "the truth" should be reverted: as far as we know, neither may be the truth, one of them at least is probably false, but both are verifiable, and that's all that counts. Fram (talk) 10:16, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. Of course disease X may be caused by something totally different, and just need to be triggered, but we may not have found that out yet! Or it may be caused by both things .... But we do need some kind of verifiability for both 'versions of the truth'. And we need to teach people that we teach the controversy, if there is one ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:42, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Respectfully, someone saying on this very page "we don't care if anything is true or not" is proof of the damage that those two words have done. North8000 (talk) 10:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

No, it is not because of those two words that I don't care if anything is true or not, it is because I don't care about that, that I support the inclusion of those two words. Finding truth in primary sources is the job of secondary sources: we are a tertiary source, we compile what the secondary sources have found. Fram (talk) 11:04, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Well said. I think what we're aiming for is to accurately reflect what reliable sources say is "true", in the context of the subject of the article and the sources. Presenting the Truth isn't our responsibility, and trying to do that just causes headaches. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Terms and situations First, using the word "truth" instead of "accuracy" is a straw man, because one common meaning of the word "truth" is dogmas and opinions.

Next we must realize that there are three cases regarding "which is correct":

1. The metrics of a correct answer are agreed upon, but the answer is not agreed upon or known: E.G. Where did Emelia Erhart's final flight end? Another way to say this is that if full information were available, all reasonable parties would certainly agree. The leading edge of real science falls into this category.
2. The metrics of a correct answer are agreed on, (all would agree what "land a man on the moon" and "Win the Superbowl" mean) and the answer is overwhelmingly considered to be known. E.G. Did the US land a man on the moon? "Who won the 2011 Super Bowl?" Any alternative viewpoint in these situations is fringe.
3. The metrics of a correct answer are not agreed upon (how do you define "good" and "bad") nor is the answer. Example: Is Obama a good or bad president? In reality, "accuracy" is irrelevant/moot here, because both the metrics and the result are matters of opinion. North8000 (talk) 11:16, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Also, I like North8000's suggestion regarding adding something like "This does not intend the discourage seeking accuracy; verifiability helps achieve accuracy", the wording is a bit awkward, but I think that's a good direction to go in. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:22, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

There are more cases, such as what context the answer has meaning or value. Examples included assumptions of a frictionless surface for experiments or situations in which one Truth (the earth is not a true sphere) conflict with another (the earth for most practical purposes is a sphere) and another (the earth is a chunk of stuff who's description is only roughly approximated by geometry). This is the essence of Pragmatism. Truth is a sticky topic. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree on all counts. That's why my idea doesn't say "only put in accurate stuff", instead it just essentially says "we're not against seeking accuracy" North8000 (talk) 11:34, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems that we're actually all agreeing on this, which is a good step forwards! "This does not intend to discourage seeking accuracy; verifiability helps achieve accuracy" is an excellent addition. The other stuff (the "nearly-true" or true for all useful purposes at this level comes straight from Wittgenstein's Ladder). Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:56, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

fact vs opinion

To me, the debate over the "Verifiability, not Truth" clause centers on a simple question: When should we present something said by a source as being accepted fact (ie true), and when should we present it as opinion.

Misplaced Pages can not rely on the personal views of its editors (no matter how strongly held or how well reasoned) to answer this question. An editor may be biased (POV), or basing his/her reasoning on Original Research (OR). No, the views of Misplaced Pages editors as to whether the something is fact or not must be set aside. Instead, we rely on examining the broad corpus of reliable sources that discuss the topic (ie we see what lots of reliable sources say).

If the broad corpus of reliable sources essentially agree that something is fact, then Misplaced Pages should present that something as being fact... and contrary views should be presented as being minority opinions. If the broad corpus of reliable source do not agree on whether something is fact, then we must present both the majority and minority views as being "opinions". Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

This is where the 'due weight' aspect comes in, really. If 70% of the sources take one view, then the article should be 70% weighted towards that point of view. The real problem (as always) occurs when we have passionate people on both sides of what is supposed to be an argument in the "debating" meaning of the word, but so frequently degenerates into an argument in the "flaming row" meaning of the word! Whenever people have really strong feelings that the other side of the argument cannot by any reasonable, conceivable means be "true", then we get the flaming row happening. And Misplaced Pages editors are kinda passionate people - we're driven by our feelings. We're certainly not driven by any cash incentive! So we're never going to be able to get rid of passion (nor would we want to). It's incredibly hard to get across the idea of either NPOV or due weight to people who cannot believe that anything said by the other side can be true or even reasonable. So ... how do we really get across the idea that editors should put their own feelings, passions and beliefs aside, and let the other side have it's own due weight in an article - without wanting to haul off and hit each other repeatedly over the head with spanners? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 13:01, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• Blueboar, I think you're heading in the right direction with this. Policy should document what we actually do in controversial cases. Take examples like young earth creationism or global warming. What we do is to explain that there are various viewpoints, but then we clearly and unambiguously side with the scientific consensus—because in practice, what's actually true trumps the absurd fictions that some crackpot has persuaded a technically reliable source to publish. And I emphatically endorse our current approach. The only thing that's a problem is that our policy says it's not the approach we're supposed to have.—S Marshall T/C 13:15, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with almost everything you say S Marshall... but I disagree with your last sentence... I think the current policy (especially when read in conjunction with our other polices) states very well what we "actually do". We really don't care whether you (an editor) are convinced that something is true or not true. What we do care about is what the sources (all the sources, not just the ones that agree with your personal view) say, and we care about presenting what those sources say with neutrality and due weight. That's the key to understanding "Verifiability, not Truth". Blueboar (talk) 13:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, respectfully, that's the exact opposite of what "verifiability not truth" says. In fact, young earth creationism and global warming represent the triumph of the scientific consensus over other published sources. Typically, we excuse this by saying that the peer-reviewed academic ones are the "more reliable" sources. But what that actually means, in the real world, is that academic sources are more reliable because they're more likely to be... the truth. Do you see how that directly contradicts "verifiability, not truth"? In fact, it's closer to, "truth over verifiability."—S Marshall T/C 13:29, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

We side with the scientific consensus because these are the more reliable sources. The chances that they present the truth or are closer to the truth than the fringe scores are of course considerable, but in the end, we prefer not to discuss the contents of such articles on the basis of truth, but on the basis of verifiability and reliability of sources. This may seem like semantics, but keeps things much more neutral and less heated. Discussing whether X is true or not true are pointless; discussing which sources have the best reputation generally, the most peer review, the most citations, the highest professional standards, ... may still get heated, but is in the end fundamentally different. Fram (talk) 13:38, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that what you saying, Fram, is that the good reputations, the most citations, the high professional standards, and the scientific consensus are routes to ... the truth. And we prefer them because they're more likely to be true. Isn't that right?—S Marshall T/C 13:41, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

No... we prefer them (and state what they say as fact) because they represent an extreme majority viewpoint. You may think what they say is "true"... but we don't care what you think. Blueboar (talk) 13:47, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict, respond to S Marshall's statement) In non-contentious articles, it works. Often editors decide which source is in error, which one is is correct, put in the material from the correct source and use it for the cite. Or decide on the correct statement, and then pick a source that supports it. This is not the heresy that some would claim, this is, in fact, in a major way, how successful articles are written. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:54, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

No, Blueboar, Misplaced Pages doesn't follow the majority viewpoint. See, for example, list of common misconceptions which by its very existence is a counterexample to that principle.—S Marshall T/C 13:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

We do so follow the majority viewpoint. It's just that the only viewpoints that "count" in our calculation of the majority are the viewpoints expressed in reliable sources, not the viewpoints held by undereducated people.

Also, that something is a "common" misconception is not the same as saying that 50.1% of humans believe the error. A majority of people don't believe most of those misconceptions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:24, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, WhatamIdoing, what I've been saying all the way through this is that we do pick and choose which sources to prefer. We decide which are reliable. This is not a democratic process, not a source-counting exercise, but a matter of editorial judgment in which we decide what we believe and what we don't believe. Which is, at its heart, the quest for accuracy, reliability, and other synonyms for "truth". And that's why it's perverse to pretend that verifiability isn't about truth. It is.—S Marshall T/C 15:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec)What Blueboar said. We don't decide what is truth or what not, we set up rules for verifiability and reliability, and we trust the sources that meet our standards to get it right most often. But if they turn out to be wrong and the fringe, ormore likely new research is right instead, so be it. We will then adjust our articles to represent the new scientific or mainstream consensus: but we will not be shamed or humbled, we will not have failed, since it is not our function to present truth, nor to go searching for it: we are, again, not a primary or a secondary source, but a tertiary one. We need to compile, present, summarize, reflect the sources in an accurate, truthful, neutral manner, but we don't pick and choose to present one truth or the truth. Fram (talk) 13:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm deeply perplexed by this answer, Fram, because I've literally just linked to two high-profile examples of articles where we clearly present two different views from two different sets of sources, and then clearly say that the scientific consensus version is correct. What's this, if it isn't picking and choosing to present one truth or the truth? Shall I link to other example articles where we do exactly this? I certainly can...—S Marshall T/C 14:17, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

That's a different issue. Fram's reply is excellent, I wish I'd said that! Dougweller (talk) 14:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Re: List of common misconceptions... Common belief is not the same as majority view in reliable sources... also, I will note that the editors of this list are fairly strict about requiring citation to reliable sources that actually say the items listed are misconceptions (and common). You can't just add something because you think it is a misconception (ie the article does not allow assertions of "truth" for inclusion). Blueboar (talk) 16:37, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't quite agree with Fram's comment as (an absolute) general guideline and a part of the problem here is, that a general rule doesn't really cover all the different scenarios in WP that well. Truth and verifiability have slightly different meaning in different areas/fields and there is also a difference whether we are talking about sourcing marginal factoids or theories/concepts/ideas. In particular with regard for the former we do more than just trusting reputable sources to get it right, but (ideally) we actually verify them independently and if necessary correct them. If for instance a reputable source makes an obvious straight forward calculation error (at least obvious to domain experts and for non scientific fields you could think of acitation or copy errors as a similar scenario), then we correct it or at least note the error, but we're definitely not going to copy the reputable source blindly.--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Conflicting 'truths'

I work mainly within the field of archaeology and history. In those fields 'truth' can be extremely elusive, perhaps impossible to determine depending on how you define 'truth'. And there are other fields in which there are conflcting 'truths'. Our job here is not to present 'truth' but to present what reliable sources say about the subject, because that's all we can do when reliable academic source are in conflict (note I'm sticking with academic sources here to make my point). Dougweller (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

For those areas, where it is elusive, I think that that simply means that it is not known, not that it does not exist. North8000 (talk) 15:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

OK here's an example Three ship experts are writing a WP article about the USS Flutaflammer. The need to put in the length. They (without making a life out of it) can find only two sources that say the length. Both generally reliable, except one made a mistake. One said 735 feet long, which all of the editors agree is plausible. The other said 2,735 feet which all of the editors agree is clearly implausible. The way it really happens is that they decide to say it's 735 feet, and cite the source that said that. Is somebody here saying that they should not have done that? North8000 (talk) 15:22, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Some time ago I argued with an editor about an even more problematic issue; the only source making a statment was wrong. It was about a series expension of a function, and the issue was a typo in the source. That was resolved on the basis of "truth" (and perhaps we also violated the NOR/Synth rule). If it's easy to show that a source is wrong, why have wrong information on Misplaced Pages? If there is a genuine dispute about this issue that is not based on Wiki-fundamentalism about applying the rules here, than that's a different matter. Count Iblis (talk) 15:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree as well (see also my posting one further up).--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:44, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to the resolution in that example... however, what the editors in question are doing is applying a combination of WP:RS, and WP:CONSENSUS. The editors agree that on this specific fact, one source seems more reliable than the other. We allow for this (if need be, invoking WP:IAR to justify it). But... consensus can change... if a group of editors comes along and challenges the previous consensus, arguing that 2735 feet is actually plausible. At this point the article should be changed... so that it presents the debate... mentioning both lengths and attributing them (as opinion) to their authors. And, as further reliable sources are found (or written), the article would have to be changed yet again, to account for these new sources. Blueboar (talk) 16:03, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, now for the same situation except with a contentious article. A POV warrior (who knows that the 2735 is probably wrong, but where having it in there serves his purpose) enters the scene. He tells the editors that the process of trying to to determine which is right is forbidden in Misplaced Pages, and so the wrong number also stays in the article. This type of situation is VERY common.North8000 (talk) 17:06, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• Actually I think it's simpler than that. Blueboar is right to say we decide what's more reliable. Of course, by "more reliable" what we mean is "more likely to be true".—S Marshall T/C 17:46, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

  That's a good example, but I find it to be overly contrived for essentially the same reasons that Blueboar gave here. Just because we need to remain neutral doesn't mean that we have to be irrational as well. Actually, I'd argue the exact opposite: since we're required to be neutral, we are required to make more rational decisions about the conclusions reached by reading sources. We should all strive to be collegial as well though, meaning that we should at least listen to what the "POV warrior" has to say. In the example given, a reply such as "most of us agree that a ship of this type being 2,735 feet long would be implausible because <such and such>, which makes <the second source> unreliable here in terms of the length of the ship." The "POV warrior" is probably arguing that <the second source> is reliable for something else, and a third (fourth?) editor is reverting them citing the unreliability of that source in terms of the ship's length. In my experience, the vast majority of "POV Warrior" accusations arise from that sort of situation (the others are, of course, consperacy theorists and fringe theorists, but those situations are less... pernicious). Listening to what the "POV warrior" has to say, which should come down to something like "I realize that <the second source> contains a typo for the ships length, but it's correct about <some other subject> and I'm being told that I can't use it for that because of the length issue", should make it clear that the solution is that <the second source> is perfectly useable for everything other than the length issue.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 18:40, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Under my example, the POV warrior simply wants the wrong information in there, and can use the "not truth" mantra to say that policy supports keeping it in. North8000 (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Unrealistic... people don't become POV warriors for no reason. Chances are, if someone feels strongly enough about the length of the ship to POV war over it, we overlooked (or chose to ignore) an important aspect of the length debate. In which case, we probably should have been more neutral and mentioned both numbers in the first place. At minimum, I would ask the POV warrior to better explain why he/she supports to 2735 number.

And let's not forget the third option... deciding to omit both figures (ie deciding that the length of the ship is really an unimportant factoid, one that is distracting us from writing a quality article). Blueboar (talk) 19:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(added later) In a typical POV war, they are not pushing the ship length per se, they want it in there for impression only on a different item which they are warring. (e.g. that that Navy is mighty, or that that ship builder builds excessively large ships) ) North8000 (talk) 20:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

This was addressed by myself and Blueboar: "Chances are, if someone feels strongly enough about the length of the ship to POV war over it, we overlooked (or chose to ignore) an important aspect of the length debate."
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 20:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

And POV warriors don't stop at one issue, they almost always have an overall agenda that reveals itself pretty strongly, and at some point they get blocked or just ignored. We will never be able to write a policy that prevents editors from causing disruption in the first case, we have to deal with those kinds of issues with policies that help us shut down the disruptive behaviour. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

They don't get blocked because they are wikilawyering, which means (mis)using the policies rather than breaking them. North8000 (talk) 20:03, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe they don't get blocked directly for wikilawyering, but an editor who people generally agree is wikilawyering is doing so because they are already on thin ice and they realize it. This policy is not, and should not attempt to be, a behavior policy. Nuujinn is right that "POV Warriors" always end up reveling themselves and that we shouldn't write a specific policy to try to prevent disruption from starting at all.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 20:27, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The points of the discussion here are: 1. That the wording of the policy can make the situation worse or better. 2. That normal editing practices follow wp;ver but don't follow the other mantras derived from it 3. That, aided by policy wording, those normal practices break down whenever there is a contentious situation. North8000 (talk) 20:46, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

To address these points: 1. You are correct that the wording of a policy can make a situation better or worse... but there is a sub-point: That changing the wording of the policy in an attempt to make one situation better, can result in making another, more serious situation worse (my major concern here) 2. I think normal editing practices follow WP:ver and the mantras derived from it. Non-normal editing occasionally varies from both policy and manra. 3. When there is a controversy, normal editing practices break down regardless of the policy. Blueboar (talk) 23:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

A real-life example of conflict between V and T

Here is a real-life example of a conflict between "verifiable" as in it can be verified it exists in a WP:RS, that conflict with "the Truth". The founder of the Subway chain of restaurants and where he came up with the idea- multiple newspaper articles written over 10+ years stuck to the story that he worked at Mike's Neebas (another sub sandwich chain) in Schenectady, NY one summer when his family vacationed there. Well, one day I noticed that he would have been 9 yrs old when that supposedly he was working there, so I did lots of googling and found that yes, his family did vacation there, and the IDEA of Subway did come from him having eaten at Mike's many times during the summer's in Schenectady, but that he never worked there. So one source, contradicting multiple other sources that had an obvious error and truthiness-problem. Current strict application of WP:RS would assume that one would use the multiple sources as "verifiable" over one other source that conflicts with it. How do we write policy so that it would not come to a bad conclussion for this particular conflict?

WP:IAR? Your example is close to original research, but then again, we all do that sometimes. In such a situation, it is best to a) discuss this on the talk page to get other people's opinion, and b) present it in the article like "while most sources state that he did X (ref 1, 2, 3), he was only 9 years old at the time and he got the idea from Y (ref 4)". If you don't have ref 4, it wouldn't be acceptable, buy with it, it seems alright to me: you give more weight on a minority of sources based on common sense, but you do include the version of the majority of sources. I've had a similar problem with the name of a region, where a source stated that it first appeared in 1844, but many older books used the term (verified through Google books and so on). Because I had no secondary source to support that, only primary sources, but beacuse on the other hand the one secondary source we had was clearly wrong, we eventually excluded the claim altogether. "Verifiability, not truth" is a general rule, not a suicide pact, and editor's came come to different conclusions, but if the choice is between a verifiable claim and an unverifiable claim (e.g. a family member contradicts all reliable sources about his relative, based on personal knowledge), the verifiable claim will trump the unverifiable "truth" (which may be true, or not, but we have no way of knowing this). In such a case, we will not even include the unpublished claim from personal knowledge: it is not acceptable and fails WP:V as it is written now. Fram (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

What about this hypothetical–I am convicted of whatever crime that gets national attention (treason or something similarly rare that gets picked up nationally) and the Associated Press spells my last name wrong, or puts my wrong birthday, or gets some other fact wrong about me that would be put into a Misplaced Pages article on me. While on death row with nothing better to do I somehow have access to internet and complain here about whatever. Since the AP is used by pretty much every news outlet that is a secondary or tertiary source how do we rectify the problem of verifiable sources (all ultimately using the same source as theirs) being simply wrong about a fact. In this scenario we assume any outlets getting the information correct are either unpublished or hard to verify (tv and radio are hard to cite in Misplaced Pages and often dont go into detail like newspapers on things like birthday and place of origin).Camelbinky (talk) 18:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if emailing your family and asking them to send a copy of your birth certificate through to something like OTRS would do? A birth certificate should count as a RS, I'd think :o) Of course, that wouldn't work at all if it was something other than your name / date of birth which was wrong. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 04:44, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

A suggestion

Since I've started watching this talk page, I've been having a daily reaction of tl;dr, but I appreciate that "not truth" remains an unresolved issue in many editors' minds. I've said before that I feel strongly that I want to keep "verifiability, not truth". I'd like to suggest something concrete that (maybe?) might help resolve this issue.

Currently, the page begins:

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.

I suggest adding another sentence after it:

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. Misplaced Pages strives to present what those reliable sources say in as accurate a way as possible.

My hope is that the second sentence puts to rest any implication that we want to knowingly say something that is not true. Thoughts? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I've never liked that the wording is "whether readers can check that material" because it isnt our job (and policy is quite clear on this point) to make sure that ALL readers CAN check, only that SOMEONE can check. Perhaps that wording is why we have the perennial discussions regarding sources in English, pay-sites, real-life sources as opposed to being online, and obscure locations of sources that can only be accessed by someone in that area (a museum for instance). Perhaps we can rectify that issue at the same time. As for your change, I dont think it gets the point across enough about the difference between verifiability and truth. Too much opposition exists for removing that phrase unfortunately, but how about–

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth–whether someone is able to check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, and not the opinions of individual editors. Misplaced Pages strives to present the most accurate knowledge of a subject as published in reliable sources.Camelbinky (talk) 20:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I like tryptofish's added sentence (it's more... pithy ), and I like your change to the first (that it's someone, not absolutely anyone). So: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth–whether someone is able to check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, and not the opinions of individual editors. Misplaced Pages strives to present what those reliable sources say in as accurate a way as possible."
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:04, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

That's really good stuff! Both Tryptofish's sentence and the update to it by Ohms & Camelbinky :o) Nice and clear, dead easy to understand by anyone at all, and sums it up beautifully. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks all of you for those comments! I'd like to tweak this a bit more, basically taking what you have done with the first sentence and trying to keep the syntax consistent between the middle and last parts of the sentence, and also trying to avoid the vagueness of the word "someone", which makes me want to ask "who?". So:

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether one is able to check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether individual editors think it is true. Misplaced Pages strives to present what those reliable sources say in as accurate a way as possible.

--Tryptofish (talk) 20:11, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The construct "whether one is able" is rather... stilted.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:11, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for replying! Yeah, I see what you mean. That came from the stuff about getting away from "readers can check". How about:

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether anyone is able to check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether individual editors think it is true. Misplaced Pages strives to present what those reliable sources say in as accurate a way as possible.

What I did was to go back to the wording that you proposed, but change "someone" (which made me wonder "who?") to "anyone". I'd even go for "anyone can check" instead of "anyone is able to check". --Tryptofish (talk) 19:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

We need a good "middle ground" effort such as this. But I'm afraid this will be lost / unnoticed on the talk page being farther back. North8000 (talk) 20:10, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, me too. Let's try to get some wording that the few of us paying attention can feel good about, here in this relatively quiet space. Then, maybe tomorrow, I'll move it to the bottom as a proposal (as opposed to as a suggestion). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that we move that to a subpage for quiet, as I think North8000 is correct. But this sounds like a plan. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:18, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Would it make sense to change "published by a reliable source" to "published by one or more reliable sources"? --Nuujinn (talk) 20:20, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly either way, but it's part of a blue link, which maybe (?) argues for brevity. And if it's published by one or more, it's de facto published by one. It would also be OK with me to go with "published by reliable sources". --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, something that moves this paragraph to overall neutral ground regarding accuracy would settle it for me. The issue is that as worded, it is interpreted as say that seeking accuracy (in cases where objective accuracy exists) is not a legitimate activity for editors, or a legitimate consideration. A non-structural statement that merely shifts the psychology of this paragraph to neutral ground on that aspect would do it for me as a compromise. Something as simple as "Verifiability helps achieve accuracy" would do it for me. Folks on one side would say it's not enough, folks on the other side would say it's heresy compared with mantras erroneously mis-derived from wp:ver. Such is the fate of compromises and middle grounds.  :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:48, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

How about:

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether one is able to check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by one or more reliable sources, not whether individual editors think it is true. Verifiability helps ensure accuracy, and Misplaced Pages strives to present what reliable sources say in as accurate a way as possible. --Nuujinn (talk) 23:58, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Let's verify that "verifiable" is intimately related to "truth"

See here:

verify early 14c., from O.Fr. verifier, from M.L. verificare "make true," from L. verus "true" (see very) + root of facere "to make" (see factitious).

And here we see that:

–verb (used with object), -fied, -fy·ing.

1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction. 2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling. 3.

to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.

Count Iblis (talk) 15:56, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

We use the word in the more legalistic context of "confirmation" ... closer to the third definition you list... "serving to confirm".

Verifiability (on Misplaced Pages) means that we are able to confirm that something is stated by a reliable source... however, it does not necessarily mean that what is stated by that source is "true". And we definitely don't accept an assertion of "truth" as verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 16:27, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

And we accomplish 2 by verifying assertions with reliable sources, hence verifiability trumps truth in practice. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:28, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• Nuujinn and Blueboar, it really does seem to me that you're getting around the word "truth" by using synonyms for "truth". I think you're inserting a semantic layer between "reliably-sourced" and "true", and then mistaking the semantic layer for something that's actually meaningful. But I think these verbal strategies that circumnavigate the word "truth" are unsuccessful, because a source is only "reliable" because it's "accurate", or "widely-accepted" (i.e. "probably true".) Reliability comes from "editorial supervision" and "a reputation for fact checking" (i.e. "more likely to be true.") Everything that makes a source more acceptable on Misplaced Pages is also, inevitably, something that makes it more likely to be true. Do you see?—S Marshall T/C 20:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that we're dodging the word "truth". I think that we're acknowledging that what we write might be wrong, and that even if we know and can personally prove, beyond any shadow of doubt, that what we believe is 100% true, that material may not be appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Two examples might help:

• I'm wearing a red shirt today. This is 100% true. There is no question of the accuracy of this statement. I could prove it to anyone's satisfaction via photographs and sworn witness statements. But it's not verifiable, so we aren't going to include this. "Being true" is not sufficient. We do not include material because it is true.
• If Misplaced Pages were written a thousand years ago, we'd have written that the Sun revolves around the Earth. This is false—but we would have said that. "Being true" is not required. "Being published by reliable sources" is. Given what we know about the accuracy of our sources (you know what they say about newspapers? The 90% you don't know anything about is absolute truth, but the 10% you have personal experience with is completely wrong), I am convinced that Misplaced Pages contains many outright falsehoods. We're okay with this: we'd rather have a verifiable falsehood than an unverifiable truth. Ideally—and usually—what is verifiable will also be true. But when that ideal state is not available, we choose verifiable lies over unverifiable (alleged) truth. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm perplexed by this angle, WhatamIdoing. For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that verifiability is a criterion for inclusion on Misplaced Pages. It's not the only criterion, which is why your red shirt article wouldn't make it in. As you say, being true is not sufficient and we do not include material merely because it's true. But that's entirely tangential to the point I was making.

  Equally, your remarks about our current state of knowledge are also totally accurate—and indeed, you're echoing a remark of mine which User:Peter jackson chose to enshrine as Raul's 301st law. But it's also entirely tangential to the point I was making.

  Will it be helpful if I explain my position again in different words?—S Marshall T/C 22:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Probably not, but go ahead anyway. Blueboar (talk) 23:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that the "we don't care if it's false" type of statements are mistakenly created by trying to reverse engineer mission statements from policies and guidelines instead of the reverse which is how it should be done. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:04, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

@S Marshall, just to be clear, I'm arguing about what truth is from a philosophical position learned during graduate school where I concentrated on literary theory and philosophy of language. My personal takes on this are mostly informed by Pierce and Rorty, with some Wittgenstein and european phenomenology thrown in. Many of the arguments above seems largely informed by common sense, logic, science and math, which are equally valid approaches. My experience is that defining truth is tricky, and how one makes a determination of what is true and what is not is generally determined by context. Here, we have an operational definition, where we say that we determine what is accurate and true via verifiability, which is a good way to do it because we can come to consensus about what are good sources and what is verifiable. As you can see from the discussion above, we have more trouble defining truth. And if you are familiar with Kuhn, you know that science itself shifts widely from time to time regarding what is true, also based on what can be verified via experimentation. Religion generally defines truth via dogma, but that varies widely. So basically, my take is that in any context, what is true and what is not is determined by an accepted procedure. Where people disagree about the procedure, agreement about truth is not possible, for example, evolutionist versus creationists. So I see a very significant advantage in focussing on the procedural definition, verifiability, and not getting bogged down in discussion about what it true and what is not true. I hope that's clear. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:44, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Nuujinn, is that the big departure that it appears? .. you appear to be saying that meeting wp:verifiability defines it as true? North8000 (talk) 01:07, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Time for a little forward progress I don't think that anybody is challenging the following statement: verifiability is a requirement for inclusion. Nothing else, such as truth, is a substitute. So, should we stop "pretending" that that is being debated? North8000 (talk) 01:11, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The real debate is that should we have wording (or lack of wording) that gets construed as saying that a quest for accuracy is not another legitimate editorial objective?...given that it does NOT override the verifiability requirement? North8000 (talk) 01:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I would hedge that... what we strive for is an accurate presentation of what is said by the various reliable sources that discuss a given topic. This means that when sources disagree (and they often do), we note the disagreement and include discussion of minority views (in accordance with WP:DUE, of course). We don't omit significant minority views, even when we personally believe that the view expressed by the source is wrong. to do this would not accurately present what the sources say. Blueboar (talk) 02:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. North8000, I am saying that the only way we could possible determine what is true in discussions here, as a practical matter, is by an appeal to reliable sources, and we have a procedure for that. We do not agree about the nature of truth, and historically, truth doesn't cross disciplines well. And I feel strongly enough about that that I do not support removing "verifiability, not truth", period. I am happy to discussion improving the explanation of that phrase, but not changing or removing it. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I also feel strongly that the specific language "verifiability, not truth" is a crucial cognitive shock serving the indispensable function of signaling to new Misplaced Pages editors that the assumptions they came in with are all going to need to be re-examined. I oppose removing it and anticipate continuing to do so. In closing, dude, WP:LETITGO. —chaos5023 (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I still like "Not only true, but verifiably true." We're never going to get 100% agreement on any of this stuff, simple because of the various reasons that have been outlined above; common misconceptions, 'grey area' truths, typos in combination with a paucity of reliable sources, and all that jazz. And we're always going to get the POV warriors, the WikiLawyers, and all the rest that muddies the field. Yes, we can invoke IAR on the odd occasion where something has obviously - or even almost certainly - sprung from a typo in an otherwise reliable source. But - talking of POV pushers and WikiLawyering ..... how about we don't join the ranks here in this discussion :o)? Any small step towards improvement in the ways policies are worded and applied is a small step in the right direction. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:04, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Pesky, if you require the material to be "not only true", then you require an editor who believes that homeopathy works to remove all information that says homeopathy is pseudoscientific garbage.

There's no two ways about that: either you are required to include only information that you believe is true, or you are permitted to include information that you do not believe is true. This is an "A/not-A" choice. There is no middle ground.

Misplaced Pages actually wants people to include (and accept the inclusion of) information that they personally do not believe is true, merely because it is verifiably the position of a sizable body of sources (even if, in the opinion of editors, those sources are absolutely, provably, 100% wrong). We must include information that is verifiable-but-IMO-false. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

• Nuujinn, it's not necessary to discuss the philosophy or linguistics of "truth" if you simply remove the word "truth" from the policy entirely. To be clear, that's what North and I have been banging on about all these months: to remove the words "not truth". There's no need to open that can of worms at all.

  When editors say "verifiability, not truth", what they mean is "verifiability, not truthiness". They don't literally mean that it's okay to add falsehoods to the encyclopaedia. That's what ought to be clear.

  "Verifiability, not truth" is a soundbite. It's popular with contributors to this page because it's helpful in dealing with POV warriors. The only problem with it is the one Hans Adler points out so clearly earlier on this very page, before we got another huge ForestFire of discussion spreading out in all directions (it would really help if one day we could have a discussion that doesn't lose focus, by the way).—S Marshall T/C 11:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  It seems to me that what you're describing is perfectly clear to those who are willing to understand it (the vast majority). There doesn't appear to be a significant issue with this, and it's a pithy statement that is easy to remember and conveys an easily understood concept, so I don't understand what the problem is. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 11:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  The problem is that policy should document practice, and in practice, we don't follow "verifiability, not truth". This is what I was talking about further up the page, if you wouldn't mind reading back?—S Marshall T/C 16:10, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  I didn't really find that argument compelling. While of course people are going to go by truth, there's a workable core policy for contentious cases (those being the only cases policy ever really needs to address) in 1) going by verifiability using reliable sources 2) determining what reliable sources are by consensus. Where your reasoning falls down is when you assert that we're deciding that sources are reliable because they tell the truth; while that may be the motivation for many or most of us, it's not the mechanism by which we make that determination; the mechanism is consensus. —chaos5023 (talk) 17:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  Right, exactly. I'd be interested in your reply to this though, Marshall. I'm not quite sure where it is that we're not seeing eye-to-eye (and I've at least skimmed though, if not actually read, all the discussion above). In my experience we do follow "verifiability, not truth" in practice, so... uh, I don't accept that we're not already documenting practice.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 18:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  Though this kind of gets to something that's been kicking around my head for a while, which is that there's an enormous disconnect between how Misplaced Pages operates (and should and must operate) in uncontentious areas and how Misplaced Pages operates (and should and must operate) in highly contentious areas -- but we act almost ashamed of this, like if we say it out loud then we're articulating a double standard, which I guess is inherently bad, undemocratic and anti-wiki-way. So we get policy that's mostly dedicated to nailing down what to do in the worst of cases -- which people then read, say "oh, I understand now", and proceed to devastate the countryside by applying it consistently. I'm kinda just thinking out loud here, but I think this is a problem. —chaos5023 (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  Yea, I agree, that's something that I've come across as well. Then we end up dealing with what are essentially "policy warriors" running around for a while. I'm not sure that there's a way to resolve that issue, though.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 18:32, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

From my experience, "policy warriors" inevitably take bits of policy out of context, and (perhaps more importantly) focus on one policy to the exclusion of all the others (thus not seeing how they impact and influence each other). This is a flaw with the editors, not with the policy. The fact is, you can not fully understand what we mean by "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiability, not truth" without also understanding what we mean by "Editing from a neutral point of view" and "Misplaced Pages articles must not contain original research"... and vise-versa. All three of our core policies are expressing the same basic concept... just from different angles. Blueboar (talk) 18:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

We can take (should take?) the line that (for example) "Proponents of homeopathy say that ", and "Opponents of it say that " - both of which statements are verifiably true. We can also say stuff like "The theory of homeopathy is " and then say something like "Scientific experiments have shown that " - again, both statements verifiably true. This kind of approach can apply perfectly well to all such stuff, and pretty much any other area where POV-warriors start baring their teeth and flexing their claws. I actually think that this kind of approach is exactly what's meant by NPOV - we state the position of both sides but anyone reading it wouldn't be able to tell which side the writer was on (if they were on either). Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Not exactly; you're making a WP:GEVAL error. DUE requires us to present the dominant view as being the dominant view. So we do say "Proponents say that it works" but not so much "Opponents say that it doesn't". Instead, we say simply "It doesn't".

If I were a true believer in homeopathy, and Misplaced Pages's policies said that I must not leave false information in an article, I would feel compelled by the policy to delete the sentence "Homeopathy's efficacy is unsupported by the collective weight of modern scientific research" as IMO false and inaccurate. I would be convinced that you meant me to delete "The modern mechanism proposed by homeopaths, water memory, is considered implausible in that short-range order in water only persists for about 1 picosecond", as I would consider that an extremely plausible mechanism. I would definitely delete "The proposed rationale for these extreme dilutions – that the water contains the "memory" or "vibration" from the diluted ingredient – is counter to the laws of chemistry and physics, such as the law of mass action", since I would consider it a normal working of chemistry and physics.

Under the current system, I would leave these (IMO) "false" statements in the article, because Misplaced Pages says from the start that it doesn't care whether the material is truly accurate, so long as it accurately reproduces the (IMO) "errors" made by mainstream sources. I would agree that these errors are verifiable, and therefore eligible for inclusion under the current system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:40, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for any other changes

Per ThatPeskyCommoner, I think we've been at loggerheads dealing with "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth" for months now, so let's try a different tack and leave that aside for a reasonable period (I'd say 90 days, but that's just my preference) and focus on the rest of the text. The second half part of the first sentence is "--whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." What can we do to improve that clause? Do we change that to explain that we use the first clause as a kind of touchstone, or expand it to capture the relationship? Or something else? 10:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that that second half of the sentence is fine. I'd suggest a new sentence after that to mitigate the unintended effects of "not truth". Maybe my awkwardly worded "This does not intend the discourage seeking accuracy; verifiability helps achieve accuracy" could be a starting point. North8000 (talk) 11:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me, fwiw. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I would want to tweak the wording... but the concept is good. I could live with something like that. 13:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe just "Verifiability helps achieve accuracy". ? North8000 (talk) 13:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I see where you're going with this, but most of the purpose of "verifiability, not truth" has to do with... avoiding "value judgements". I mean... as editors, we're supposed to be neutral. We're not supposed to be saying "this is what I learned, I know that it's true. This is what should be in the article because it's the truth." That sort of thing should be avoided in all cases (although we'll get there 99.999% of the time anyway just because that's what all of the sources are saying, it's then coming from the sources, not from any particular editors). So... I'm not sure why "a new sentence after that to mitigate the unintended effects of "not truth"." is something that is actually desirable. Actually, I'm somewhat suspicious that adding something there will only create confusion.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 18:14, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

By neutral, do you mean no value judgemet as to whether to put in knowingly wrong or irrelevant sourced material vs. knowingly right or relevant sourced material? And, if so, respectfully, where did you get that from? North8000 (talk) 18:44, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

A comment which may or may not be useful:

Content must be verified per RS, and content must be accurate. For example, that someone is wearing a red short and that is verified creates accurate content. Truth is another issue altogether. Truth is an ultimate, and is also subjective. We shouldn't confuse accuracy with truth. Our article must contain it seems to me content that is both verifiable with the best sources and best editor oversight available to provide the most accurate article possible. Truthfulness doesn't really enter the picture.(olive (talk) 19:23, 14 July 2011 (UTC))

Yes! exactly. Thank you.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 20:41, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Object lesson

Here, maybe a firm example will help everyone understand each other better.

NASA, through the Apollo program, landed men on the Moon through the late 60's and early 70's. There's documented proof of this, and it's well accepted that it happened. However, there is a significant minority, world wide, who hold what is a fringe belief that the moon landings never happened. This is a high enough profile fringe theory that not only is it mentioned in the Apollo project article, but it has it's own complete article at Moon landing conspiracy theories. This is the type of article that not only benefits from the "verifiability, not truth" phrase, but it's almost dependent on it.

Misplaced Pages should not be advocating either for or against those conspiracy theories. That we cover these fringe theories at all can only happen because their existence and the details of their views is verifiable. We're not ignoring the truth, but... Climate change articles are another area that is basically dependent on this, as well. Some of the worst behavior issues that this policy addresses are those of well established editors rather than the fringe theorists or the POV pushers (who have to deal with "no original research" much more than verifiability. There are plenty of well-healed cranks who will publish fringe theory material, after all). Just because these ideas (such as "we didn't land on the Moon" or "CO2 doesn't cause global warming") are wrong doesn't mean that we shouldn't cover them. "Verifiability, not truth" allows for that, and allows the encyclopedia to (for the most part) maintain it's neutrality.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 18:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Both excellent examples. Blueboar (talk) 19:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

• Well, let's run with those examples and explore them in detail, because I think they support my case. There are sources for two views: 1) that the moon landings happened, and 2) that they're a hoax. There are more, and better, sources for view #1.

  Sure enough, Apollo program says that the moon landings happened. It doesn't say that they "allegedly happened". It compares the sources and then, in a series of simple, declarative sentences, takes one side over the other—and contrary to what Ohms Law said above, I was unable to find any mention of view #2 in that article whatsoever.

  Meanwhile, Moon landing conspiracy theories acknowledges that sources for view #2 exist, but in language that clearly distances itself from that view. Again, though there are two kinds of source, Misplaced Pages clearly decides between them and selects one.

  For the avoidance of doubt my position is that our practice in this is correct, in other words, that the articles we're considering are correctly written. I'm simply pointing out that we do not do what this policy says we're going to do. We compare the sources and decide which are more "accurate", more "reliable", more "trustworthy", or other synonyms for "true".—S Marshall T/C 20:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit conflict, wrote this without seeing S Marshall's. ::I think that the Apollo example shows the reverse of what you intended. The editors said that we landed on the moon, they didn't just tally up sources and say that we did and didn't. Being a non-controversial article (for 99% of people) they were able to ignore the "not truth" mantra.

The global warming one is immensely complicated, (starting with "what is the question?") and there is no view which is such a tiny minority in sources that it could be called fringe. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:09, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the Moon landings articles have slid over the last year or so, unfortunately (I haven't actually worked on them in a while). The Climate Change area is... slightly better (if only because arbcom got involved there, and slapped a couple people upside the head over verifiability). But the reason that I bring up both of these cases is because it illustrates the problem with the approach that "truth is better" that both of you seem to be taking. I don't hold them up as good examples, but as problem areas where "verifiability, not truth" needs to be taken into account (Keep in mind that there's a constant push - pull with what is "undue weight" to consider, as well).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 20:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

• Ohms Law, the climate change case supports my view. In fact, I specifically cited global warming as supporting my case in this diff, on this page, yesterday. Also, I suspect you may have misunderstood where North8000 and I are coming from when you describe our position as "truth is better". That isn't our position at all. Our position is that "truth" is a problematic concept, meaning as it does different things to different people, which is why we should remove all mention of truth from this policy. And the phrase "not truth" is specifically problematic because it's against the basic purpose of writing an encyclopaedia to publish something false.—S Marshall T/C 21:11, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

  Alright, but the end result is the same. I disagree with your position that all mention of truth should be removed, primarily because "seeking the truth" is the primary problem that we deal with. It's always been a core tenant of Misplaced Pages that we're about "verifiability, not truth", to the point that it's a mantra now, so... I guess that I don't think that it matters how much it's applied where it needs to be applied most, saying it is still important. The problem that the idea isn't applied as it should be in some cases doesn't mean that we should ditch it, it means that we should discuss the idea further. You guys seem to misunderstand a fundamental pillar of Misplaced Pages's editing policy, so a bit of education seems to be in order here, to me. I'd be just as much against ditching the idea of "no original research" (by redefining what original research means) as I am to ditching verifiability, which yourself and others are advocating for by seeking to redefine what verifiability means.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• The idea that North8000 and I wish to "ditch verifiability" is a serious mischaracterisation of our good faith intentions. We want verifiability to be a policy, and we want it to say that everything challenged or likely to be challenged must be verifiable by means of an inline citation to a reliable source. Please desist from setting up straw men. The fact that we want to change two particular words that SlimVirgin added, apparently without discussion, in 2005, does not make us weird extremists who want to wreck the encyclopaedia's fundamental structures. Others, as well as you, have accused us of this and I'm growing a little tired of it now. Please stop.

  I also see an attempt to claim that North8000 and I don't understand the policy, which is a claim I've also seen before. That's rather insidious, because it sets you, Ohms law, up as some kind of authority figure or teacher who can "correct" our "misunderstanding". In fact, I think our position shows that North8000 and I have read the policy and found it ambiguous, and we wish, in entirely good faith, to correct it.—S Marshall T/C 07:37, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, both S Marshall and I have have made it abundantly clear many times over that we support verifiability. How could you possibly get that backwards and say the opposite? Please stop. North8000 (talk) 09:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

It's still not clear to me how changing the "Verifiability, not truth" wording would solve any problems. The moon landings example, like other conspiracy theories, is an interesting one. There are people who are convinced that the moon landings didn't happen. Our Misplaced Pages articles will naturally attract those people, who will come and potentially argue ad nauseam about what the "truth" is. "Verifiability, not truth", is a quick and easy way of dismissing these arguments, instead of wasting time engaging in the arguments. Editor time is valuable, and policies should make it easy for good editors to continue doing good work.

Otherwise, a good editor might be tempted to waste countless hours engaging the conspiracy theorists, and attempting to "prove" that they actually did land on the moon (personally, I'm with Buzz Aldrin, and would want to punch the conspiracy theorists in the face). The point is that the burden should be on the conspiracy theorist. Of course we strive for accuracy - that's obvious. Consider the statements: (1) "Astronauts landed on the moon. Some people think it was a hoax.", and (2) "NASA claims that astronauts landed on the moon, but others disagree." I believe both statements are true, but the first one better reflects the sources. Some people believe that only the second one is true. Fortunately, that doesn't matter, because Verifiability, not Truth, is what's important - so we go with the first statement, and avoid arguing with the conspiracy theorists. (This comment is made independent of what the actual articles currently look like.) Mlm42 (talk) 04:04, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Errrrm ..... an editor who really understands NPOV writing would surely just act as a reporter of what the theories say, and what the opponents of the theories say? Our job, if we're basically quoting/ re-wording what other people say, is not to make value judgments on what they're saying - just to report it? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:40, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Just adding - if I were to say (re the moon landing conspiracies) that "The moon landing conspiracy theories are X,Y and Z, and these are the grounds on which they base those theories ". "Opponents of the conspiracy theories state a,b, and c, and these are the grounds on which they base those statements " then I very much doubt whether anyone reading this would be able to hazard a guess as to "which side I'm on". I could do exactly the same with almost any other contentious area, and leave readers at a complete loss as to which version I personally 'prefer'. This is what we're supposed to do - present the evidence (being what each side says and why) in such a way that only the evidence itself can sway the reader one way or the other. This is not hard to do - though it can be hard to explain. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

So you would re-write the Apollo article to not simply say we landed on the moon? just say there are two points of view (we did and we didn't) and maybe that one is a majority view? North8000 (talk) 10:10, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The Apollo article itself I would write as reported. I would include a section on the conspiracy theories, and give each point of view 'due weight' (trying to make sure that the coverage of each point of view reflected the percentage of sources which supported that view). Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:40, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm only persisting because we're getting to a core item. My question was about the core statements... would you remove statements which state as fact that we landed a human on the moon? North8000 (talk) 10:49, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Personally, no I wouldn't, because of the weight of evidence (including 'scientific weight' and 'reliability' of evidence) points to it having happened. I would have a separate article on the conspiracy theories themselves, including the history of the theories, where they originated, by whom they were originated, and so on - and I'd personally have that as a 'see main' link from the moon landing article, so that people who really wanted the info on the conspiracies could then switch to that article to read up more about them. But that's just what I personally would do - if it's an 80/20 split on the moon landings, I'd weight the article to the 80, and include 20 on the conspiracy theories, with a link to the article on the conspiracy theories. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:03, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I think this one is closer to 99/1. So the editors decided that the 99% viewpoint was accurate, and stated what was in those 99% sources as fact, and chose not to use what was in the 1% sources. So they followed both wp:ver, and also exercised judgement in a quest for accuracy. They followed the policies, although they did not follow the pervasive false mantras mis-derived from policies. North8000 (talk) 12:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Pesky's point about Due Weight is the key here... Due weight is an important consideration, not only in how much space we give to various viewpoints, but also in how we present them. We usually present viewpoints that are accepted by significant majorities of reliable sources as being "fact"... we usually present viewpoints with noteworthy minority support as being "Opinion". If the balance of reliable sources expressing the various viewpoints is more evenly split, then we present all viewpoints as being opinion (even the one that has a majority).

Assessing Due Weight is a function of WP:NPOV, and not a function of WP:V... with one important exception: If a viewpoint is not verifiable then we give it no weight at all (i.e. we do not include it... no matter how true we think it may be). That's what we mean by: "The threshold for inclusion is Verifiability, not Truth". Blueboar (talk) 13:01, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You said that much better than I did! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 13:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, well formulated indeed. Also with regard to the discussion concerning fringe and POV-pushers above it is important to note that those guys tend to attack the "not truth but verifibability"-line from both sides. If we put the focus on "truth" (verifiability as "best" approximation of it), they will argue their POV/fringe based on their (fringe) "truth". But if we focus on verifiábility only they will argue their POV/fringe based on (false) sources claiming their "truth" is verifiable. So there is no easy way out here. Though on the verifiability side we can restrain the abuse somewhat by requiring sources to have a high degree of reputability (and accuracy).--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

We're agreeing except that you are avoiding my point: Would you say that the objective (in this case, where the subject is clearly a matter of fact) of all of what you describe is to put accurate information in Misplaced Pages, or is that process itself the objective? North8000 (talk) 13:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

If it's 99/1, we weight the article 99/1. The article wouldn't be complete if it had no reference at all to the conspiracy theories. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:02, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Yes and no... our objective is to accurately present what the sources say... but it is not our objective to determine whether what the sources say is accurate or not. Blueboar (talk) 14:09, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

But, as exhaustively explained with examples such as Apollo program above, we do make value judgments about sources.—S Marshall T/C 14:21, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Blueboar, we're getting to the heart of it. Your statement "our objective is to accurately present what the sources say" if taken to mean everything that it could cover, goes far beyond wp:ver which just specifies a criteria for inclusion of material. Where did you get that from? North8000 (talk) 14:32, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

@blueboar: Actually to some degree with we do determine (or better maby care about) whether a source is accurate or not: We do that via source selection, i.e. directly through editorial decision not to use an inaccurate source and indirectly through reputability as a filer or proxy (unreputable sources get ignored). The determination of a source's accuracy is part of an editor's source slection process.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:34, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps... but this is a function of reliability and due weight not verifiability. Let me rephrase what I said above... our objective is to accurately present information related to our subjects... this can mean that we must present information we may personally think is inaccurate. Blueboar (talk) 15:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

• But in practice, where we do present information we believe is inaccurate, we do so in language that distances it. This is in accordance with the example above. We present the mainstream view in the simple declarative (e.g. Apollo program) and the fringe view surrounded by hedges such as "claimed", "allegedly" and "purportedly" (e.g. Moon landing conspiracy theory). Misplaced Pages always states the mainstream scientific or academic consensus as if it were correct. And it is right that we do so.—S Marshall T/C 15:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course. That is how we give an overwhelmingly majority viewpoint its due weight. And, of course, figuring out due weight gets trickier when there is disagreement in the mainstream... at which point we present all viewpoints as "opinion". However... this has nothing to do with "Verifiability not Truth". We still exclude information that is not verifiable (no matter how many editors believe that information to be true). Blueboar (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

But that's not the problem. The problem is how to treat information that's verifiable but untrue.—S Marshall T/C 16:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

And that the current wording is widely interpreted as outlawing seeking accuracy. North8000 (talk) 16:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

"The current wording is widely interpreted as outlawing seeking accuracy." I disagree with this statement. I think most editors are aware that we are striving for accuracy. I would guess that among the public at large (i.e. those not intimately familiar with Misplaced Pages), the misunderstanding is the other way around: They believe that Misplaced Pages values Truth over Verifiability. The wording "Verifiability, not truth" is a wake up call for those people. Mlm42 (talk) 17:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

That's not always true, actually: We do not always distance ourselves from what we know to be errors. Sometimes what is verifiable is actually false, and is known to an individual editor to be false. I'm sure that I could find examples of editors who are writing within their field and who present the mainstream view, as it's known today, knowing full well that it was actually false in some particular point, and that the sources to demonstrate its falseness were still in the process of being published.

In such a situation, the editor would be entirely correct to write (or to leave in the article) "Last quarter, the company reported that it earned $____", even if he personally knows that revised figures will be announced tomorrow morning. "Truth" is not an excuse for committing original research. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

For larger theories/concepts, disputed content or undisclosed (hence unverfiable) information I agree. However for smaller factoids that's not quite true. A more common scenario would be to correct quotes, typos or simple straight forward computation errors in secondary literature. The difference to your example is, that the correctness in such cases is verifiable by checking primary sources or performing a simple computation yourself and not original research either.--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but off-topic: The complaint is about the tiny fraction of material that is either unverifiable-but-true (which we do not include) or verifiable-but-untrue (which we do include).

The trivial case that you describe (the material is not only verifiable-and-true, but also appropriate, encyclopedic, given due weight, on-topic and so forth) is not what's being discussed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Blueboar/WhatamIdoing, are you seriously saying that in the part of Misplaced Pages that works, that for each fact that is put in the editor(s) found and tallied up what all of the sources said on it, found the majority view and then put that in? I assert that here is how it actually usually (= on non-contentious articles) happens: The editor(s) know the topic, which means they are carrying, in their heads, summarized information from dozens or hundreds of sources on the topic. They also know which sources are good, and which are crap ("crap" usually meaning not very useful rather than wrong) They either write the true material and then select and go to good source to cite it, or they select and go to a good source and use it to help write and cite the planned material. Odds are if you pick a sentence from today's FA and trace it back, that it will have come about in this way. North8000 (talk) 17:49, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

"are you seriously saying that in the part of Misplaced Pages that works, that for each fact that is put in the editor(s) found and tallied up what all of the sources said on it, found the majority view and then put that in?"... Yes, I would say that... on non-controversial topics there is rarely a need for this tally to be spelled out in a formal talk page debate... but it happens never the less. It occurs unconsciously, as the editors do research on their topic. When (as you say) editors "are carrying, in their heads, summarized information from dozens or hundreds of sources" they unconsciously become aware of which views are in the majority and what are in the minority. They mentally tally up what the different sources say, and assess them.

They even come to a conclusion as to which viewpoint they think is "true" (not necessarily the majority view). However, when it comes to writing an article, they must set aside their personal conclusion as to "truth". They must accurately (and neutrally) present all significant views, and give them due weight. They can not only cover the view they agree with (ie think "true"), they must also cover the views they disagree with (ie think are "untrue"). Blueboar (talk) 19:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

That's what WP:V in its present wording says they should do, yes. The question, I think, had more to do with how Misplaced Pages works in practice—where Apollo program says that the moon landing happens and mentions no other possibility; where global warming says very clearly that anthropogenic global warming does take place; where evolution says very clearly that organisms evolve; where taxonomy doesn't mention baraminology; where Elvis Presley says that Elvis is dead; or where Egyptian pyramids unaccountably fails to mention ancient astronauts. I could go on and on.

My point is that in practice, when the chips are down in the face of potential controversy, Wikipedians make judgments about what's true and what isn't, and write their articles accordingly. Policy ought to document practice.—S Marshall T/C 19:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

No: "When the chips are down in the face of potential controversy, Wikipedians make judgments about" what's DUE and what isn't. They don't decide what's True™ and what isn't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The evidence says that contrary to Blueboar's earlier post, Wikipedians certainly don't cover all significant views, WhatamIdoing. The evidence is silent on what judgments Wikipedians make, but I'm personally quite sure that Wikipedians have views on what's true and what isn't. And I'm quite sure that these judgments influence what they write, too.—S Marshall T/C 20:27, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I get it. You're pushing for this policy to be more descriptive, rather than being prescriptive. The thing is, on issues of principal such as this, we're actually not descriptive, intentionally so. People edit from a non-neutral perspective all the time as well, but it would be a huge mistake to say "well, we can bend our NPOV policy a bit, since no one wants to follow it about this point". Just because editors, even well-established editors, edit articles to add The Truth™, doesn't make it correct. That's actually the principal reason that I mentioned the Climate Change area, above.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's certainly a refreshingly different take on WP:PG, Ohms law.  :-) I'm afraid that it's original research, though; you're inventing a totally novel principle, not documented anywhere else and without any kind of consensus supporting it. In an encyclopaedia that's run according to the five pillars and WP:PG, policy documents practice.—S Marshall T/C 22:59, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but you're flat out wrong on this point. Mistaken, at least. The pillars are non-negotiable. Always have been. Most policy is descriptive, and that's actually one of our principals as well, but there is a prescriptive core to policy, and Verifiability is one of them. That doesn't mean that this policy can't change in minor ways, but it does mean that the essential meaning to it should never change. Go ahead and read 5P, or feel free to ask others about this point elsewhere.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You're agreeing with me. The pillars are non-negotiable. (They haven't "always been" non-negotiable, actually. The pillars didn't even exist until 2005. They were written after the policies. But they're effectively non-negotiable now.) What I said was that in an encyclopaedia that's run according to the pillars, policy (which is the layer beneath the pillars) is descriptive—including this policy. Do you understand now?—S Marshall T/C 00:26, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, it's not what "an editor" does; it's what "all the editors collectively do". Although any given person, for any given point, might not extensively research something to see what "all" the sources say (although for material for which very few sources exist, that is not only possible but actually done, by myself and others), between us all, over the years, that is essentially what is done. We search for sources; we compare the sources; we report the balance of the sources.

None of which really has anything to do with WP:V. All these examples about whether we should mention ancient astronauts in Egyptian pyramids and the like are strictly matters for WP:NPOV. WP:V only concerns itself with whether the thing was said by a source that we could use to support material if that material is included. WP:V does not concern itself with whether that material should be mentioned in ___ article or in ___ manner. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. What we're talking about is the impact of two words which also have nothing to do with WP:V namely "not truth"  :-) North8000 (talk) 20:21, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Largely, North8000, but I'd take issue with WhatamIdoing's last sentence too. In its present wording WP:V explicitly empowers editors to add sourced material, and explicitly doesn't care whether that material is true or false.—S Marshall T/C 20:29, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but that's because of the limited role that this policy document encompasses. As WhatamIdoing mentioned before, this policy doesn't exist in a vacuum, you need to be aware of NOR, NPOV, IRS, etc... as well (the ideas behind them, at least).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

... or we could just keep it simple and remove the words "not truth" from the policy. They're only a soundbite, Ohms law. The whole policy makes perfect sense without them.—S Marshall T/C 23:01, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. The phrase "Verifiability, not truth" is the policy, for the most part. The rest of the page is there primarily to support that statement.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The verifiability policy is about the principle that edits must be verifiable, in that anything challenged or likely to be challenged should be supported by an inline citation to a reliable source. Properly understood, it's got nothing to do with truth at all.—S Marshall T/C 00:26, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Ohms law, honestly, that's so off-the-wall that I don't even know how to respond. Except to say that I think that the other 99.9% of wp:ver shows that to be wrong. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:45, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

More in reply to what Marshall said above (I can't find it in the wikitext...), the pillars have always existed, they just didnt' exist as Misplaced Pages:Five pillars until 2005. And I agree that policy is descriptive, but I don't see how you think that you agree with me when you're saying that the pillars are descriptive as well. You're not making any sense. Anyway, I agree with the section below. Stick → Dead horse. Time to move on.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:24, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Technically, "the pillars" haven't always existed. Various WP:Principles have always existed, but what those principles are, how many there are, and how to write them down has always been a matter of debate. "Five Pillars" happens to be the most popular embodiment of the community's principles, but it's not some sort of fundamental, non-negotiable, can't-exist-without-it page.

In an exactly analogous situation, "Verifiability" hasn't always existed—but the notion that you write down what you can support with a source, rather than what you personally believe is the truth, has long been the policy of the community. The fundamental, non-negotiable what's-in-the-sources-rather-than-what-you-believe idea is the only real policy. This page is merely the community's best effort at writing down the principle for the sake of people who don't already know the real policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

back to basics

At this point, I will remind everyone of the primary reason for saying "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiablity, not truth": If something is not verifiable, you should not add it... even if you are convinced it is 100% true. Blueboar (talk) 00:53, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree. So let's stipulate that so that we don't posit debates that do not exist. North8000 (talk) 01:02, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

But this is part of the debate... this is why I strongly oppose the idea of removing the phrase. In this limited context, I would argue that the phrase is vital to the WP:V policy. Indeed it is the heart and soul of the policy. Perhaps we can better explain it... but it must remain in the policy. Blueboar (talk) 01:06, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

And despite the polls and rfc and months of discussion, there's no consensus to remove it. That horse is dead, let's move on. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:10, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Also no consensus to keep it. I think we had some "middle ground" ideas of adding an explanatory sentence. But folks saying that such a middle ground compromise is too radical forces folks back to arguing their actual / further-from-the-middle positions. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Please, show me the policy allows a change on the basis of no consensus. I believe that we've been through enough discussion on changing "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiablity, not truth" to establish that currently there is absolute no consensus for a change, and continuing to beat that dead horse is not productive. And I'm willing to work on wording in other sections, I'll make some suggestions tomorrow morning. What I see is a continuing effort to try to force a change where no consensus for a change exists. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstood my comment. North8000 (talk) 03:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Then please explain what you meant by "Also no consensus to keep it". --Nuujinn (talk) 04:23, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

First, answering your question, the meaning of consensus is hard to pin down, but it always means a substantial majority. Neither the "change it" nor the "keep it" viewpoint achieved that. Now on to the mis-understood (at best) part. The impasse is about changing that sentence. I brought up the middle ground ideas which are adding an explanatory sentence without changing the one in question. You, with strong words ("beating a dead horse") implied that I was arguing for the change that had the impasse. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, that was not directed at you specifically, just in general, I should have been more clear. I was emphasizing what Blueboar said, not responding to your comment on positing debates, and I overreacted to your comment about consensus, please accept my apologies. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:42, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

There's plenty of consensus to keep it. It's there, after all. Has been for years now, and the recent attempts to remove it have obviously raised significant opposition. It's not unanimous as long as you guys persist, but... I mean, there's more people willing to retain the current wording than there is to remove or change it, so in the long run I'm betting that the current wording will stay. By the way, I'm willing to listen to suggestions, or to see changes, which add additional explanation to the paragraph as well. Anything short of changing the phrase itself is probably acceptable, to me.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 02:28, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this discussion appears to be going nowhere. It was interesting to explore the relationships between "verifiability", "truth", and "accuracy"; but ultimately the campaign to change the opening sentence (and in particular, remove "not truth") isn't going to succeed without widespread support. At this point, it's obvious that there is not widespread support. It's time to move on. Mlm42 (talk) 02:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Y'know, I actually think it's too early to decide to quit on this one. There have been some interesting suggestions raised which could be taken further and make for clearer wording / re-wording. I know we're all dead tired of this debate, but it seems a shame to collapse in a heap and leave it just as there's a possibility that we could work together on something that actually makes it better. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 06:27, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

In regard to the phrase "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiablity, not truth", how many more months should we discuss it? I'm game for the rest of the policy, but seriously, how many more months for that particular phrase? --Nuujinn (talk) 06:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Dunno, mate! How does "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiable truth, not unverifiable truth" grab you? (Bearing in mind that the "verifiable truth" can be "it's true that X person made Y statement or has Z opinion). :o) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 06:55, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Mlm42 (talk) 07:11, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

There are no horse carcasses here, and no sticks.  There are, however, figures of speech (see new section below) including "horse carcass"; and two words, "not truth", ambiguously used as both a literalism and as a figure of speech.  Unscintillating (talk)

It's unfortunate and annoying that a lack of consensus means permanent stagnation, but I agree that this proposal is stuck; thousands of words and nobody's changed their position. However, axiomatically, consensus can change, and the lack of consensus over this particular wording is quite likely to change, over time. I'm sure it will be back.  :-)—S Marshall T/C 08:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps. But thank you for dropping it... even if only "for now". Blueboar (talk) 12:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

The lead says with emphasis that not truth is acceptable if verifiable.  WP:Editing policy states, "...on Misplaced Pages a lack of information is better than misleading or false information—Misplaced Pages's reputation as a trusted encyclopedia depends on the information in articles being verifiable and reliable."  As long as we have editors believing that WP:V means that it is not only accepted but expected to include false but verifiable information in Misplaced Pages's voice, the problem has not gone away.  On the other side of the equation, editors don't get from reading this sentence that accurate information is not acceptable if it is not sourced.  Unscintillating (talk) 16:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

No... the emphasis is the reverse... to indicate that assertions of truth are not acceptable if not verifiable. We look to other policies (especially NPOV) to resolve "verifiable, but not truth" situationsBlueboar (talk) 17:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

"Not truth" is ambiguously both a literalism and a figure of speech

While this conversation has reached a lull, this seems to be a good time to step back and discuss why we haven't been able to resolve the issues.  One point is that we did not reach a consensus in the previous discussion about "not truth" being a figure of speech.  Perhaps the problem is that it is more accurate to identify the two words as ambiguous in having both a literal meaning and having a figure of speech meaning.  Unscintillating (talk) 16:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand your distinction. But do we really have to re-open the discussion yet again? The phrase says exactly what it means... It does not matter if you are 100% positive that something is true... if it is not verifiable you can't include it. It really is that simple. Blueboar (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Argh! I was trying to drop this, but I literally can't let that pass. If it said that, Blueboar—if the wording was exactly what you just wrote—then I wouldn't have a problem with it at all! But that's not what it says.—S Marshall T/C 21:22, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Huh? That's exactly what it says. Blueboar (talk) 21:29, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

What about adding that sentence as a follow on to the sentence that is there? So, we'd have The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. The fact that an editor or editors are 100% positive that something is true is irrelevent; if it is not verifiable you can't include it. for the first paragraph (slightly edited to make it more appropriate for the document). I think that it's simply restating what's already in the second sentence, but I wanted to offer something like this as a sort of compromise.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:08, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we should change it to "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiability, not awesomeness".. but then people might complain that Misplaced Pages is anti-awesome? Seriously, this is basic English grammar; it means exactly what Blueboar said it means. We should really drop this before we all lose our minds. Mlm42 (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Blueboar, what it says is that it doesn't matter what's true, it only matters what's verifiable. Which is a very different thing from what you just wrote. Did you seriously not understand where North8000 and Unscintillating and Hans Adler and me and, well, everyone else who doesn't like the current version were coming from?—S Marshall T/C 21:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

1. So one source of difficulty is that editors don't agree what the two words mean.  Unscintillating (talk) 21:39, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Wishing the best for everyone's minds, #A suggestion, above. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Structurally, the operative part of the sentence is "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability", it is not affected by any listing of what it is not. You could list a hundred things that it is not, and it would not affect the operative clause. The effects of "not truth" do not come from the structural statement of the sentence, the come from the impressions that it leaves, and the mis-quotings that it encourages. I think that the intent and benefit of the "not truth" is to address one of the most common challenges of the policy, where someone essentially says "but it's true, so verifiability should not be required". I personally think that this benefit is small/irrelevant, because whoever says that will certainly and always lose, as wp:ver is clear, explicit, strongly worded, and a policy. Speaking only for myself, I think that the main damage from "not truth" is that it contributes to various widely accepted damaging mantras and misconceptions which pretend to be derived from policy but aren't. Some of these fall along the lines of "editors job isn't to apply intelligence, seek accuracy, select accurate sources, or do what editors do to create all of the successful WP articles, it it just to watch good articles spontaneously arise from tallying and repeating sources." And if there is a POV battle, that accuracy is not even allowed to enter into the conversation. North8000 (talk) 22:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Argh... I think I am about to loose my mind. Stop over-thinking this. Most people clearly interpret the first sentence in a manner very similar to what Blueboar said above. If you parse individual words with various meanings, you can twist around the intent of nearly any sentence uttered in English discourse, which is what I see you doing here North. One major reason such arguments are unconvincing is that they're not grounded in any actual commentary. Can you provide some diffs where you think that someone is espousing the interpretation that you're offering?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any diffs to show that "most people clearly interpret the first sentence in a manner very similar to what Blueboar said above"?  Unscintillating (talk) 23:27, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

If most people interpreted it that way, then we wouldn't have had such a conflict on this page in the first place and we wouldn't have so many news articles and organizations accusing Misplaced Pages of advocating a policy of promoting false information. I would definitely argue that most people interpret not truth as meaning that Misplaced Pages has no problem with pushing false information, just so long as it is verifiable and that all information on Misplaced Pages must be thought of as false, because Misplaced Pages has no reason to try to make sure it is true. That's the interpretation I think the world at large takes from "not truth". Silverseren 01:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree: Conflict involving a couple of pedantic folks on a policy page does not prove anything about the normal person. See, e.g., the ArbCom case about MOSDATE: 99.99% of editors—a fraction that qualifies as "most" by any standard—were uninvolved and unaffected.

I haven't seen a single reputable media source that actually asserts Misplaced Pages advocates promoting falsehoods.

I think if most people misunderstood this page, there'd be a different person howling about it at RSN every day, and lengthy discussions about its true meaning every month. This isn't happening. Not one of the people alleging a misunderstanding has ever put forward even a single diff showing that anyone except themselves has actually misunderstood it. And, yes, we've asked for those diffs, for months now. At this point, absence of evidence of a real-article, real-editor problem looks to me a whole lot like evidence of absence of any real disputes involving this hypothetical misunderstanding. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:02, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

2. Another source of difficulty is comments not grounded by diffs.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:27, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I figured someone would try to be smart and ask that. It's rather difficult to prove a negative. I'm not sure how I can show that people have not used the interpretation that north (and yourself?) are putting forward... other than not pointing to anything. As for showing that the policy as written is used in the manner that myself and Blueboar, among others, are saying, I could pick any of thousands of talk page conversations where WP:V is mentioned. Is that really necessary? the policy is as it has been for years now, I'm simply asking for some basis in fact that it's not always interpreted as nearly everyone apparently thinks that it's interpreted as (other than an apparently tiny minority).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:54, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

3. Another source of difficulty is no agreement that a problem exists.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

4. Another source of difficulty is that the Discussion page format makes archives of diffs inconvenient to locate.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding examples that support what I said, ( from the many that I have drawn the conclusion from) they are pervasive; there is even at least one in this current talk page. If this is just User:North8000/Page2#Useful method to take a whack at any thought then it would be a waste of time, But if some folks are genuinely open to see if they lend support to what I said, possible say something, the I would be happy to work on it. North8000 (talk) 14:32, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

OK I found one right in this talk page. It the full ramifications covered by: "Our job here is not to present 'truth' but to present what reliable sources say about the subject" The full scope of this sentence includes excluding all other considerations (such as accuracy, plausibility) in deciding what does and doesn't go into an article. North8000 (talk) 14:37, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

See though, that's kinda my point. That's not an example, it's your own interpretation of what others are saying, and that interpretation isn't what most others appear to be taking. It certainly doesn't seem to be my own interpretation... although, it's kinda hard to tell because what you're saying is kinda written in double-speak. I know that I'm open to listening to any suggestions, and I have been listening here; it seems as though you're unwilling to consider anything but removal of "not truth", which is never going to be accceptable to this group of participants.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 15:27, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

While I can't say exactly what that one person had in mind, such sayings are pervasively applied to mean exactly that. On "you're unwilling to consider anything but removal of "not truth", you must have missed a whole lot of things that I've written, such as the latest below. North8000 (talk) 15:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

5. Another source of difficulty is resistance to consensus building.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:56, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

6. Another source of difficulty is that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from trolling. —chaos5023 (talk) 16:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

additional discussion

Oh, Oh... or maybe we could say:

• The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. The fact that an editor or editors are 100% positive that something is true is irrelevent; if it is not verifiable (meaning not published by a reliable source) you can't include it. Seriously... we mean this. We honestly don't care how true you think it is... it has to be verifiable to be included. and by that we mean if you can't point to a reliable source for it, don't add it! Really.

Wait... I think I saw ... nope, sorry, my mistake, the horse is still dead... maybe if we tried beating it with birch rods instead of hickory sticks? sorry for the sarcasm folks... but this is getting ridiculous... we are rehashing stuff we have been over time and again. No one is budging and it really is time to move onBlueboar (talk) 02:12, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I still like "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiable truth, not unverifiable truth" followed by the "The fact that an editor or editors are 100% positive that something is true is irrelevent; if it is not verifiable (meaning not published by a reliable source) you can't include it. Seriously... we mean this. We honestly don't care how true you think it is... it has to be verifiable to be included. and by that we mean if you can't point to a reliable source for it, don't add it! Really" thing - all it's doing is swapping "Verifiability, not truth" out for "Verifiable truth, not unverifiable truth".

Would anyone who just swapped that in actually get shot down in flames for doing it? Is there anything actually wrong with that version instead? Is is actually worse? Would you kill me if I bunged it in? Could we discuss that particular version as a possible improvement, rather than go round in circles again? Love you all, guys, really I do (granny speaking here!) ..... but let's try to take a step forwards, rather than backing away from the carcass again (it might only be under anaesthetic, not dead) :o) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 04:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Please don't, and please let us finally drop discussion of the first line for some reasonable period of time. This is simply exhausting--do you not see how very long this has been going on, here and at the pump? If you want to proceed, I ask that you reread the entire discussion in the archives in both venues. If you're a fast reader, I expect to see you back in a week or so.... (; --Nuujinn (talk) 13:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem I have is not just the "not truth", but the combination of this with the "has been published in a reliable source". This means that if I know that something is true and it is verifiable in the usual scientific meaning, I could still not write about it on Misplaced Pages, if there is no single source from which you can directly verify it. This is at odds with how technical scientific wiki-articles are edited. Count Iblis (talk) 14:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how. Can you point to an example, or sketch one out?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 15:22, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It is actually closely related to what I wrote here. You can't always verify some given explanation from a single source. Suppose that the given derivation of the quantum version of Poincaré's theorem were challenged, that argument would not be settled by merely pointing to out some references. One woud have to engage in an argument about why the Misplaced Pages text is an acceptable or not acceptable way to present the mathematical argument that is given in the cited sources. Count Iblis (talk) 17:16, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. If those disagreements were in primary sources, we shouldn't be using them in the first place, unless they were backed up by reliable secondary sources. If the arguments were presented in a secondary source, we would document what the secondary source says. We're writing an encyclopedia, not evaluating mathematicians, that would violate OR. That's what academic journals are for. --Nuujinn (talk) 17:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

The "disagreement" here would be about verifying a Wiki-text. So, if you have written up a paragraph about some mathemtical subject and you have paraphrased also the mathematical arguments, then verifying that your text correctly represents the references may involve non-trivial math. If there are questions raised about that, then that may not always be settled by pointing to one ref, it can be a matter of detailed arguments and perhaps some refs to textbooks. Count Iblis (talk) 18:10, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

And what you are talking about sounds very much like a WP:SYNT violation... a form of Original research. Blueboar (talk) 01:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is not our job to verify the work of academicians. Reporting what a source such as wiki entry written by an acknowledged expert is fine, but if you have to resort to your own calculations or combine other information from other sources to check your math, you've most likely crossed the line into OR. If you are competent to do that kind of work, doing so is more appropriate elsewhere. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

How about this? As a compromise, develop a sentence that follows that addresses the main expressed concerns, and then drop the discussion of the first sentence for 1/2 year? North8000 (talk) 15:26, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Float some suggestions... perhaps you will come up with something we all like. However, (Speaking purely for myself and not for others) I really like our current language and I have yet to see a suggestion that I think is better. That does not mean better language is impossible, but (being completely honest) it will be a hard sell. Blueboar (talk) 01:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I get the sense that I'm (slightly) more willing to consider additions then you are, but... Anything short of substantially altering the first sentence, I'm certainly willing to listen, if not outright support. The "someone"/"anyone" kind of question above is one thing worth considering, for example, but it does need to be pitched well and considered.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 02:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)