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Formal mediation has been requested

Formal mediation of the dispute relating to Senkaku Islands has been requested. As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. The process of mediation is voluntary and focuses exclusively on the content issues over which there is disagreement. For an explanation of what formal mediation is, see Misplaced Pages:Mediation Committee/Policy. Please now review the request page and the guide to formal mediation, and then, in the "party agreement" section, indicate whether you agree to participate. Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page.

Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 04:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Request for mediation accepted

This message is to inform you that a request for formal mediation of the dispute concerning Senkaku Islands, in which you were listed as a party, has been accepted by the Mediation Committee. Mediation of this dispute will begin within two weeks (once a mediator has been assigned to the case), so please add the case page to your watchlist.

• For an explanation of what is involved in formal mediation, see Misplaced Pages:Mediation Committee/Policy#Mediation
• For a guide to accepted cases, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Guide#Case phase

The entirety of the above two pages (the MedCom policy and the guide to formal mediation) are also important reading for editors who are new to formal mediation. If you have any questions, please post them onto the case talk page, or contact the MedCom mailing list.

For the Mediation Committee, AGK 15:14, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Re

Glad that you have been back. I have been badly busy now too. I am not the "main driver" and I saw reasonable suggestions from STSC and PHead128 not long before. The environment of the dispute has made me having less and less confidence on the coming mediation. Thanks for your message. --Lvhis (talk) 17:45, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I am back mostly to witness this mediation. Your lack of confidence on the process is understandable. I view it as little more than a formality that User:Qwyrxian and others intend to pursue. It's commendable that you stuck around for all this time, since these content debates are quite unproductive exercises. Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Pinnacle Islands

Yes Bob, I also like the dual name solution but Misplaced Pages does not seem to endorse a dual name very much. In any case, I would support the dual name argument in the mediation process. STSC (talk) 12:05, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob and STSC, thank both of you for your input and efforts. My thought is to go step by step: step1, the "SI" is a POV one; Step2, choose either dual one or the English "PI". Step1 is very critical. --Lvhis (talk) 00:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The argument

Bob, I am too busy to input my whole thought on the argument in one time. Maybe the incontinuity causes some problem. I am still working on it. Thanks.--Lvhis (talk) 04:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob, you have done a good job in your section "The Practice of Unscientific Research". When I was close to finish my section "the SI is not a English name but ..." and then read through your section, I feel my one sounds echoing your one with specifics, as your one was more in principle and theoretical way. Hope these two are of complement to each other. I feel this long standing dispute has been with "penny-wise and pound-foolish" tricks which we need to avoid, and in addition, a trick of "Wikilawyering". As for the poll, I mostly agree on your vote. I had my concern left in STSC's talk page . Thanks. --Lvhis (talk) 05:59, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I thought the poll's kind of useless and distractive, but I took part in it anyway since it's not such a big deal. My feeling is that we should spend more time discussing the science behind this little research project than wasting time making premature opinions on various data collection methods.

By the way, you should take a look at Phoenix7777's data in here. It's a classic case of how impressive results can be cooked up. I've made a few reassessments of his data and the significance of his results had then unsurprisingly vanished. I'd encourage you to do similar reassessments of his other data.

Finally, this is a very sensitive question -> What do you think of our mediator? While he appears to be a pretty nice guy, I am not exactly sure if he has the expertise to really fully appreciate the arguments, the data, and the (very basic) science that were presented by us. Just by looking at his profile, it appears he technically should have the relevant training in science and computation (being an expert Perl programmer and all). --Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

"I'm in the mood for dancing"

I was in the mood to confront those edit-warlords in the absence of the mediator, particularly when I saw John Smith's appearing on the scene! STSC (talk) 10:00, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Alrighty... Just make sure you don't cross the line! But I do understand the thrill of seeing our favourite reputable British editor. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 10:36, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Guess what, I was in that mood again 'cos I was bored to dead by that guy! STSC (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I have had enough fun, just can't be bothered with that! STSC (talk) 03:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's say, it's just his obsession to write in the way he writes. STSC (talk) 02:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

He must be in a very bad mood! STSC (talk) 08:27, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's get the mediation moving

Feezo is asking for an apology. Please Bob, there's no harm in doing it privately on his email or talk page. STSC (talk) 11:42, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I felt my criticism of him, for the most part, to be well-justified. He is most certainly welcomed to tell me my critiques were undeserved because of . But instead, he threatened to forfeit his duties as a mediator to force a personal matter to settle in his favour. I believe this is a strong indication that we simply need a more professional mediator (this is Feezo's first time as a mediator) that:

1. Makes competent decisions and analyses
2. Doesn't start fights with other parties
3. Can take/debate criticisms without resorting to the aforementioned antics --Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh well, we're at the dead-end then. STSC (talk) 20:05, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob, so far I feel we three (you, STSC, and me) have worked there pretty good in a way more and more tacit understanding or agreement. We all may be quite happy there, at least so far. As for the conflict between you and mediator Feezo, I guess he may have an unhappy first-impression when you had some talk-exchanges with Tenmei, him, and AGT before I signed in "agree" and requested that template/tag. You deserve the AGF, and he deserves too. He may have misunderstood or has been misunderstanding you. When an audience has a misunderstanding in a AGF way, the speaker may have some responsibility too. No one can be perfect. May I still use that "penny, pound" or "芝麻，西瓜" stuff as an analogy. A sincere apology from you may be your real grievance in fact, but it may not hurt very much by thinking this is a gentleman's generous (大人大肚量). You have done very good job there and I have learned quite amount from you. If you don't agree the above (I have said too much), you can punch me. --Lvhis (talk) 21:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The philosophy you and STSC expressed are understandable (i.e. 大局為重 and 得過且過), but I don't think it applies to this situation very well. It's possible that my perception of the mediator is very different to your perception of him, which may explain a difference in our perspective in this. My impression of him is that of a pressurized can situated in a heated room (i.e. 定時炸彈). Even if I were to appease him this time, I have a feeling that he's going to be ticked off by something else again very soon. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

That is certain expectation or an assumption yet. If that turns true, I believe STSC and I will work with you together. Now, compromising does not mean you are weaker, instead, may be even stronger. --Lvhis (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

No Lvhis, that's not compromising. It's capitulation on a matter where the fault lies largely on another party. Instead, I opt to wait and see what is going to happen next. At the moment, it appears our friend Tenmei has gone after a bunch of mediators. Be patient. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob, if half of the exchanges you've had with Feezo had occurred anywhere else on Misplaced Pages, you'd likely have been hauled into WQA or worse. That can't happen here because discussions in mediation are essentially exempt from being used in disciplinary or other proceedings. Your most recent comment, accusing Feezo of trying to gain an advantage is both offensive and ridiculous: why would a mediator need an advantage? Are you implying he's not a neutral party in this discussion? If so, take it up with the committee. And all of the junk you talk about about "it's the other persons' fault for taking it that way, that's not what I meant" is disgusting. You can't excuse bad behavior by saying it's the listeners fault; that's just like people who make sexist or sexually harassing comments and then say "I was just joking!" Well, you know what? Civility isn't judged by intentions--it's just by behavior and effects. The effect of your attacking the mediator (not only you, to be fair, but in large part you) was to drive the mediator away and waste time that could have been spent on the actual problem. Is this helpful? Does this get us any closer to a solution to our problem? You've told me before that I'm too nice, that I'm too accepting of other people's bad behavior. So fine--your behavior thus far in mediation has been occasionally helpful (like in your analysis of the search results), but mostly it's been baiting, attacking, and, at times, downright offensive. Of course, the problem is that any comments I make like this are useless, because you're set in your ways, are incapable of looking at things from other people's perspective, and really, even if you could be blocked (say, if this went to ArbCom), you have nothing to lose, since you're not really interesting in actually editing Misplaced Pages, anyway. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

It's a shame, since I'd have expected a bit more from you. Here, let me quote some of the exchanges between Feezo and myself:

You know, for much of the time, it was our friendly mediator who decided to start disputes. First he accused me of insulting his sense of humour, then he accused me of using sarcasm, and then he accused me of threatening to call up the chair to oust him - all of which were shown to be pretty much false. And instead of contesting the validity of his accusations, our mediator decided to asked me of why I had to remind him that "he started this", which in part, confirms his role as the instigator. As a result, while your sexual harassment analogies sounded all very insightfully applicable, but I don't think they will apply in practice.

Then of course (and as usual), you decided to very conveniently overlook all those wonderful walls of text Tenmei and Phoenix wrote to condemn various aspects of Feezo's competence. Do you think I can do the same without attracting your ire? I don't think so because you seem to have set your mind in stone regarding who is the aggressor. You know... if you actually expect others to listen to your criticisms, you should really try to make sure those said criticisms are applied indiscriminately. After all, impartiality of judgment is a pivotal criteria to gain an informed listener's trust.

As for contributions, you are welcomed to downplay whatever I did really. Let's see... along with STSC, I was one of the very few that actually wrote a lot about what to scrutinize in these search results. Then along with you, I was one of the few who actually bothered to re-assess some seemingly impressive results. Then what other productive discussions do we have? There's certainly Lvhis' big section about NPOV and WP taking sides. And then aside from that, there's really nothing else that can be considered very productive unless you would like to include Tenmei's multiple threads about "bait and switch" and "conflation". So if you are to accuse me of contributing occasionally to the mediation, then I am not sure who in your mind was constantly contributing. Yourself? Tenmei?

Anyhow, we've been through these kinds of discussions before. I don't expect either of us changing our positions.

--Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, probably not. Phoenix7777 was warned by another editor. And while Tenmei's wall-o'-texts are a problem, they're not a civility problems; they're also a problem that I generally try not to raise specifically due to the RFC/U I/we filed on him. I'll not worry about going through and refuting your other points, as it is, as you imply, not particularly useful. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

My friend Qwyrxian, I am not trying to be unreasonable here. Since you have decided to proclaim that Tenmei has no civility problem, here are a few excerpts that I would like you to make sense out of (all authored by our friend Tenmei):

• Accusing others of engaging in bait and switch: "The patterns of bait and switch in threads have frustrated incremental progress and the ultimate goals of collaborative editing."
• Accusing others as gullible: "Problem: Feezo was wikt:credulous here when caution was needed. "
• Accusing others of making up dishonourable/insincere stories: "Problem: Lvhis presented a wikt:disingenuous story here; and Feezo endorsed it here without investing any effort in parsing the consequences. "
• Accusing mediator of trying to get an easy way out by not dealing with "dishonesty" of others: "Feezo validates and vests dishonesty and unwillingness to engage (non-responsive tactics) as practical, effective, cost-free and mediator-approved strategies."
• Accusing others of orchestrating bait and switch gambit: "Problem: Qwyrxian wikt:orchestrated the bait and switch gambit which underlies the problems mentioned above. "

With that said, it's definitely possible that you don't find these statements at all offensive. If that's the case, then I will use Tenmei's posts as a case study on how I can better communicate my thoughts inoffensively. You are also welcomed to not reply to this post if you do not want to explain to me why these comments are considered appropriate and civil. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Diaoyutai

OK. Thanks for letting me know, I'll have some input on that over there later. STSC (talk) 02:17, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

It's just another trick, his argument won't stand. STSC (talk) 01:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob, your last message was moved to heading no.23 on my talk page. I replied under no.8 on yours. STSC (talk) 02:20, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob, that they keep tangling that "penny" thing has been boring me to die (like STSC said before :-)). I have no choice but to build that "very.............y" big wall of text. See if this "verrrrrrry" big wall can more or less help to end that tangling thing or tricks. --Lvhis (talk) 03:38, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

That sounds pretty normal. I'd say Qwyrxian's okay even though he can be stubborn (well at least he tries to be reasonable). Go to the naming conventions page if you want to see some of the more ridiculous arguments. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm really tired of it! STSC (talk) 10:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob and STSC, his/her points cannot stand and we may need to respond. I can try while may be somewhat delayed as have been busy.--Lvhis (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I think I explained it pretty clearly why that doesn't make sense and so I don't feel like repeating myself again. Already, it appears this will be going in circles and it's doubtful they'd concede regardless of the logic presented. The proper way of doing this is to send this over to Project China for people who actually know Chinese to give some input to (although these opinions can be considered as biased because most of those guys are Chinese and we are dealing with a Chinese-Japanese territorial naming dispute). In the end, this type of stubborn resistance we are observing is quite expected, so I would be surprised if things go smoothly. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:36, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The 3-sided dispute argument is being used to treat Diaoyu and Diaoyutai separately. That's ok if you feel there's the need to transfer the thread to Project China. STSC (talk) 09:27, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Xe initiated the sovereignty issue for his/er ground of 3-way argument. Xe needs to provide the very official and direct RS proving there is naming dispute between the two sides across the Strait. All the sources Xe used cannot be treated as RS at this point.--Lvhis (talk) 03:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

As I've said, whether or not it is a 3-sided dispute is irrelevant. They can use that as their argument if they like, but I don't think they'd even have much like proving it's not a 2-sided dispute. To me, it just seems like a last ditch effort to game the system when their search results were overturned. I wouldn't pay too much attention to that beyond what's already given. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:42, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob, I know the article is part of Project China and Taiwan as indicated in the article's talk page, but it's not part of Project Hong Kong. There's no need to spread the naming dispute all over the place. STSC (talk) 02:30, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I have checked WP:CANVAS: "An editor may place a message at the talk page of a WikiProject directly related to the topic under discussion". Project Hong Kong isn't directly related. Can I revert your post there? STSC (talk) 03:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Sure, but do keep in mind that Hong Kong is part of China and so it's not actually off-topic. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:12, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not completely off-topic but believe me, you won't get many inputs in Project HK if any. STSC (talk) 03:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright. By the way. Did you see a certain feather friend screaming about CANVAS? I take it as a sign that things are going the right direction. tsk tsk --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:39, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I know s/he is a "game" master. STSC (talk) 04:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm just watching the fire on the opposite shore. STSC (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I tried to make it clearer that people should discuss the issue at the central page, not at the pages where you pasted the discussion. —Kusma (t·c) 07:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

June 2011

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:49, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

-- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:20, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

e-mail and all that

I have overlooked your message under Pinnacle Islands on my Talk page, sorry about that. I have set up the e-mail function on Wiki so you're welcome to e-mail anytime through my user page. STSC (talk) 19:10, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Good on you (and on your health) that you go away for a while. Just get out of sight of that Humanoid, then you'll be fine! STSC (talk) 04:13, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Same as STSC's wish, take care! We have done good job proving that the current Japanese title/name is a POV one. All of the grounds of our opponents argument such as "SI is an English name", "SI is the name mostly used in English" have been proved wrong and groundless. Even the Mediation will mostly end up with failure, the contents of the debate have been there and can be referred later. The POV-title tag shall be on as long as the POV title there and the dispute has not been solved. --Lvhis (talk) 04:17, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Re: What's up?

Hi Bob nice to see you back again. Things happened like this way that I am listing in time order:

Feezo announced the mediation formally closed --> John Smith's asked Feezo to remove the POV-tag from the main page SI --> Feezo removed the tag --> I input my confusion on Feezo's talk page --> Feezo asked me to follow the standard procedure as Xe was no longer our mediator any more --> Tenmei removed the POV-tag from the SID page and triggered BDR cycle involving me and Oda Mari, but I would say both of them acted as vandalism when they removed this legal tag --> Feezo locked the SID page on the status the tag removed by Tenmei's 2nd rv --> at meantime I made an edit request for adding back the tag in the protected SI page, and reminded admin Penwhale who ever put the tag on before Feezo removed it --> admin Penwhale granted my request adding the tag back in the main page SI --> Johm Smith's got mad and made a complaint in ANI against Penwhale --> Tenmei input a comment in admin Magog the Ogre's talk page --> Magog the Ogre went to the SID page, and unlocked + reverted it at the status before BDR triggered by Tenmei, and put a sanction there (wonderful one!) --> and then ... you got a call ... here now. Hope I am not confusing you :). --Lvhis (talk) 04:30, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

You should be careful with the word "vandalism". Misusing it will undoubtedly invite the wrath of Qwyrxian. Since he has now undergone apotheosis, his wrath can be formidable. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:10, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) While Bob is right that you shouldn't misuse the word vandalism (per WP:VANDAL, it only refers to actions taken to intentionally hurt the encyclopedia, which you know well this is not), first, I'm not actually an admin yet (still 3 more days of discussion/voting), and second, even if I were, I'm clearly too involved with Lvhis and everyone else related to this dispute to take administrative action against them. And, actually, calling someone a vandal when they aren't is bad, but it wouldn't lead to an instant block anyway--it constitutes a fairly light form of a personal attack that would only result in blocking if it were regularly repeated after the user had been told to stop. Which you've now clearly been told, Lvhis. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:34, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I was just making fun of you, new admin. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:37, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Canvassing, not the way I read it, with all due respect

Bobthefish2, I am simply offering those who seem to have a link to Qwyrxian to provide their voice, and, in doing so, I make no mention of how they should voice their opinion, which is important. In this light, I am within policy of Misplaced Pages, to wit: "...it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus." Having people who have dealt with Qwyrxian say what they think improves the quality of the nomination board because each viewer then comes away with information of a genuine sense of how Qwyrxian really is in his participation on Misplaced Pages. If I were to be canvassing, I would have expressly stated something to the effect of the following: "OH, please go to the nomination board and OPPOSE Qwyrxian's nomination for the position of administrator." I didn't do that, so I believe I have done nothing wrong. And, quite honestly, if Qwyrxian believes he has been such a good participant on Misplaced Pages, he should not have anything to fear about my wanting those with a significant dealing with Qwyrxian to provide their impression of him, good or bad. Thank you for your cooperation in considering my viewpoint! Diligent007 (talk) 18:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)