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Introduction is not as accurate as it could be

"with the average score of the African American population being lower—and that of the Asian American population being higher"

it should read:

"with the average score of the African American population being significantly lower—and that of the Asian American population being higher"

based on established IQ averages of ~86, 100 and 104.8. The difference of 4.8 and 14 points is statistically significant.

108.32.12.207 (talk) 22:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted your changes as the first one edited a quote from a source, and the second edit - the one you mention here - appears to be your own research. You need to use reliable sources.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:50, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

(facepalm) actually, someone else had already reverted; I missed it in my watchlist....VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:54, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

The United States Department of Labor maintains an elaborate census based on statistical sampling called the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1979 (NLSY'79). Over 155,000 youths were surveyed by phone and 12,686 were finally selected as representative samples to be given an IQ test and then interviewed annually or bi-annually for the rest of their lives to track their progress.

There was also a more recent study conducted by the government in 2007 that involved Blacks adopted by white parents exhibiting a lower average intelligence than that of Chinese adopted by white parents.

If the wiki community feels that a "too accurate" introduction could be considered "racist" by uneducated individuals that is a shame because people will miss out on objective facts that scientist worked on for years to produce.

108.17.98.152 (talk) 07:17, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I would rather see a lot less of all that material. There's far too much already in this global article, especially in the lead, from the USA, a country riddled with racial bigotry. Far too much research done to prove theories of racial differences, rather than objective investigation. HiLo48 (talk) 07:59, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I very much agree with this sentiment, though I would probably point out that US does is not necessarily anymore bigoted than many other countries in the world (and a lot of these PF folks are in fact... Canadians).Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:41, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Geographic ancestry section

Looks like there's been some edit warring going on. From what I understand:

1. Mustihussain removed two paragraphs that had been in the article for a few months
2. Mustihussain was reverted by an IP
3. Hrafn restored Mustihussain’s removal
4. The IP edit warred against Mustihussain and a bunch of others to try and undo Mustihussain's removal of this material, then finally got blocked as a sockpuppet.

I see no one discussed these edits on the talk page, not Mustihussain, or the IP, or anyone reverting the IP. Usually if someone removes sourced content that's been in the article for months, they should explain the reason for it on the talk page. The IP's six reverts without discussion is even worse. Why even have a talk page if everybody just resolves their disagreements by edit warring.

This is very reminiscent of the "Evolutionary theories" situation a month ago. Mustihussain removed several paragraphs from that section without discussing it first, but the section was already such a mess it was hard to tell if his change was helpful. I ended up rewriting the whole section from scratch. The "Geographic ancestry" section is also terrible. Would anybody mind if I tried to rewrite this section to make it clearer, as I did before?Boothello (talk) 06:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

there are many problems with the current version of this article. firstly, the so-called "genetic" arguments are given undue weight. the lead clearly states: "the american psychological association has said that while there are differences in average iq between racial groups, there is no conclusive evidence for environmental explanations, there is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation, and no adequate explanation for the racial iq gap is presently available". this is the mainstream view.. that there is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation than an environmental interpretation. this is not reflected in the current version. in fact, the current version gives the impression that the so-called "genetic" arguments are as strong as the environmental. secondly, figures like the editor-in-chief of "mankind quarterly", richard lynn, and the head of "pioneer fund", philippe rushton, are extremely controversial and do not provide neutral point of view at all. yet, their views are over-represented in the current version. thirdly, this article was hijacked by pov-pushing single purpose accounts that inserted enormous amount of controversial content without any discussion. due to all these reasons a wider wiki community response is needed, and the article should be totally re-written. this time by brutally sticking to core wiki policies.-- mustihussain (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

This comment is not helpful. I don't care what happened on the article before I showed up. I want to discuss how to improve the article by rewriting one section at a time, like I did for the evolutionary theories section and the mental chronometry section before that. Meanwhile you and Ramdrake are busy blanking sourced content without discussing it first. When you discuss your edits at all, the only thing you have to say is these general statements about how the hereditarian perspective is overrepresented. Other than your basic desire to remove content cited to hereditarians, you're never willing to explain why these sections are better off without the specific content you remove. And you also never are willing to offer any advice about rewriting these sections when I offer to do that. You say you want the article to be rewritten, but that can only be done one section at a time, and you and Ramdrake are actively interfering with that.

The only others I've seen here who seem to actually care about rewriting the article to improve it, rather than just indiscriminately blanking chunks of content, are Maunus, Victor Chmara and Vsevelodkrolikov. If you think a wider response from the community is needed, I should try to get them to participate in this discussion too.Boothello (talk) 04:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll just make the constructive comment that you should go ahead and read sources, review the article, and make whatever improvements you find appropriate through bold editing, and if you're reverted either discuss the edits, or move on to other content edits and leave the disputed issues aside. As the article currently stands, there is lots of room for improvements. aprock (talk) 05:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I just asked Maunus, Victor Chmara and Vsevelodkrolikov to contribute to this discussion, so I'll see if they have anything else to add before I try rewriting another section.Boothello (talk) 05:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Boothello left me a message asking me to comment. A section re-write is, of course, a good idea. This is one of those pages where a single editor needs a chance to re-work a slab of material rather doing it by committee. That said (and this may be seen as unhelpful, but anyway) - I think there are larger structural/purposive issues with the article.

In defence of those removing material, the material they are removing is basically the problem with the article - that a minority opinion (the same three or so authors) in psychology is being given undue weight. Given the problems there are and have been with SPAs and socks, I can understand why some are engaging in brusque editing, and I wouldn't be so quick as to say such people are not interested in improving the article. However, now that there seem to be fewer such problems than before (to my eyes anyway) perhaps it's better that we all take a deep breath and try to re-build confidence by using the talkpage a bit, rather than communicating with edit summaries. Misplaced Pages isn't fun when it's a battleground, not deep down.

What makes things difficult is that the title, like those of a couple of other similar articles, essentially pushes the content towards UNDUE representation of a minority viewpoint. (To see the community's struggle with this, compare the nice big bold title with the lede that follows it, more or less apologising for it, and then the he-said she-said format of minority viewpoint versus majority rebuttal.) One of the problems with the AfD discussion just gone is that although many editors supported keeping the article, it was also generally agreed that the article was a mess and needed to be re-written. However, there was little suggestion on how to resolve the problem.

What I'm not clear on is what this article should be doing that History of the race and intelligence controversy does not do, or the pages of the individual authors or the Pioneer Fund does not do, that would make the article encyclopedic and not POV or UNDUE. We can re-write each section (and any improvement is good), but I'm concerned that the overall purpose of the article needs to be reformulated. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:32, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the focus of the article should be on the scientific debate over the cause of racial IQ gaps as described in books like Hunt's Human Intelligence and Mackintosh's IQ and Human Intelligence. Both were published this year from major academic publishers, and they have chapters devoted to the debate over the cause of group IQ differences. So this is clearly a notable debate and there's no other article at Misplaced Pages that covers it in depth. The other articles you mentioned focus on issues like the political side of the debate, and questions over motives and sources of funding. Those topics are also notable, but there should be at least one article that focuses on the actual scientific debate (which is what Hunt and Mackintosh write about).

Even if the article is unbalanced in a hereditarian direction, I don't think the best solution is to indiscriminately remove content cited to hereditarian authors. Some parts of the article don't benefit from such a heavy-handed approach. There have been situations where Mustihussain removed content that really was excessive detail, and that's fine. But there are other sections of the article that can't be encyclopedic without including some information cited to hereditarians. The evolutionary theories section was the most recent example: Mustihussain's removing all of the hereditarian content left nothing but criticism, and an encyclopedic presentation of any idea needs to explain what the idea is before criticizing it. We need to discuss on the talk page first to make sure the removed content really is extraneous.

As to what Maunus said below, I can only fix one thing at a time. Because of the recent edit war over the degree of geographic ancestry section, I was intending to try rewriting that section next. It's pretty badly written as well as far longer than it needs to be. A lot of these sections could be rewritten to make them shorter, which would help to fix the undue weight problem. But this shouldn't be done haphazardly. If everyone else is okay with this, I want to try rewriting the degree of geographic ancestry section over the next few days as suggested by Aprock and VsevelodKrolikov. After that I can try improving the international comparisons section too, but please let's not blank large parts of that section while we're working rewriting a different section.Boothello (talk) 17:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• Mustihussain is riht in so far as his claim that the article represents it as if the hereditarian and environmentalist hypotheses are on equal footing. It does and it shouldn't, because they aren't. There are large amounts of evidence that shows environmental influence on IQ differences between groups (this literature is mostly ignored in the article) - there is as yet no direct evidence for the hereditarian hypothesis and what circumstantial evidence there is is disputed. I also do think the article here needs to be drastically pruned before it can achieve the quality a wp article should have. I generally agree with the sentiment of VsevolodKrolikov above.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:35, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

i agree with maunus and vsevolodkrolikov. the article needs to be pruned as the problem is structural. re-writing the "hereditarian sections", as boothello suggests, will not change the fact that the hereditarian hypothesis is given undue weight.-- mustihussain (talk) 16:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

With regard to the particular edit by mustihussain, I can see nothing whatsoever wrong with it. The removed text consisted of nothing more than isolated cites selected from minority hereditarian position sources, with no attempt to put it in context. On the more general point, I agree that the article gives undue weight to the hereditary argument - in my opinion, it also gives undue weight to assumptions that IQ testing is of any real relevance when comparing different populations. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:16, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• I would have to agree that given that there is "even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation", it is odd the the write-up of this interpretation is nearly three times that of the environmental. I'm not sure that mere rewriting can correct such a stark disparity -- some reasonably solid pruning would appear to be called for. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 16:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

@Andy, the problem we have is that the AfD was quite clear that this article should exist. Keep votes were expressed even by editors who generally seem quite antipathetic to the hereditarian viewpoint. The challenge is to frame the article in a way that admits the title as a valid one but sidesteps an undue presumption of importance of a minority viewpoint. At the same time, it shouldn't turn into a kicking of Jensen, Rushton and Lynn.

@Hrafn, I don't think it's simply a matter of pruning. The article structure and focus are problematic. As I said above, I'm not sure how this article is sensibly differentiated from History of the race and intelligence controversy, and I'm genuinely interested in a good answer to this question. The "race-realist" view is more a popular/media-driven phenomenon than an academic one; its notability stems more from its notoriety than its academic standing, which is what the "controversy" article looks at. A similar topic area (but to be fair to the hereditarians, a more extreme case of mainstream versus fringe) is climate change. The article Global warming controversy is a nasty mess, and I think it's because it tries to do what this article currently does, which is present lots and lots of argument vs counter-argument. As a result, the user gets a confused impression about what the academic state of play is. One of wikipedia's weaknesses is dealing with minority academic viewpoints that have political significance.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• The obvious differentiating factor is the thematic versus chronological treatment. And I'm not sure that the structure of the latter is much of an improvement -- bare-2-decade-titles ("1960-1980", "1980-2000"), followed by giant slabs of text -- very little ease of reading. On the subject of this article, where specific arguments lack any substantive empirical support, this fact is probably all that really needs to be noted about them, and the details of the arguments in favour of them can be (largely) omitted. This would likely help towards bringing things back into balance. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 17:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

i don't have all the answers but everybody agree on one point: the hereditarian hypothesis is given undue weight.-- mustihussain (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

One way to approach it would be to emulate the way that literature reviews/introductions are actually written in journal articles. There, you hit the major relevant studies, discuss the most recent ones and then say something like "for a different view see work by X, Y and Z" or "other studies in the literature include X, Y and Z". Sometimes, if it's really a minor point, in a footnote. So working off of that we could take all the Rushton/Lynn/PF studies, specifically discuss the one or two most important ones and then just say "Lynn has also written on the subjects of a, b and c, while Rushton has published on c and d". Basically deal with the Undueness by collapsing the many paragraphs devoted to this minority view point into a single paragraph or so. Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• excellent suggestions from marek and hrafn. should we proceed along these lines? could vsevolodkrolikov or maunus take this task?-- mustihussain (talk) 19:24, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I am really glad to see some progress being made here. I note a oomment by one editor saying that she has no interest in prior discussion. While we need to be friendly to newbies, I think any newcomer needs to understand that this is an article that has going through mediation and a lot of hard work went into reaching consensus on specific points. This is common for controversial articles, and all editors ought to care about past discussions as they can help explain the reasons - very good reasons, carefully thought through after much argument and discussion by many informed editors - for certain elements of the article. By the way, other articles often comments within the text that are visible only when in edit-mode, that point to passages that were carefully worked out by editors with strongly divergent views and should only be changed after discussion on the talk page. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:41, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• The mediation can be found at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race and Intelligence (with most of the action occurring on the talk page). Skimming it, most of the discussion appears to be on "The history section" (which I assume means the 'History of the debate'). I'm seeing little, if anything, on the balance between coverage of 'Potential environmental causes' versus 'Genetic arguments' -- so I'm finding it hard to understand how any changes in this overturns "a lot of hard work went into reaching consensus on specific points." I think Slrubenstein needs to specifically cite any "specific points" relevant to this discussion. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 03:19, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

:I like VsevolodKrolikov's suggestion of looking at literature reviews in journals. A great article that is perfect for this section is James J Lee of Havard's 2009 "Review of intelligence and how to get it: Why schools and cultures count, R.E. Nisbett".

The ultimate test of the hereditarian hypothesis is of course theidentification of the genetic variants affecting IQ and a tally of theirfrequencies in the two populations. Because of their likely small ef-fects,wemay have to identify dozens of such variants beforewe areable to make any confident inferences regarding the overall geno-typicmeans of different populations. Although this task is currentlywithin our technological means, it seems practically out of reach inthe very short term. Ancestry estimation is much less costly thangene-trait association research and thus offers the advantage ofan immediate increment toward the resolution of this issue." Phillip Descendant (talk) 10:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC) sock of banned user Professor marginalia (talk) 13:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:CANVAS

I'm a he, not a she, last time I checked. Anyway, I think I should mention that Mustihussain has been canvassing in this discussion. Today he has contacted Hrafn, AndyTheGrump, Professor Marginalia, Volunteer Marek, Ramdrake, and Slrubenstein. At first I thought he was just trying to alert all of the editors involved here recently, so I contacted one editor (Dmcq) who Mustihussain apparently forgot. But now Mustihussain is also contacting people like Slrubenstein, who hadn't posted here in months, while not contacting people like Vecrumba, SightWatcher and HiLo48 who have been involved just as recently. I don't think we can trust any consensus that appears to develop here based on sheer numbers when most of the people contacted seem to have been contacted because they tend to have the same opinion on content.Boothello (talk) 20:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I was canvassed by you. In anycase this is not a vote but a collaborative discussion - everyone who is not topic banned is welcome.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I figured it's only canvassing when it's deliberately contacting people with similar viewpoints. I knew you and VsevelodKrolikov tend to disagree with the hereditarian hypothesis while Victor tends to support it. I contacted who I did based only on who's been involved recently (and who tends to like using the talk page). Anyway, I guess this doesn't matter now that I can see what direction the discussion is taking. But based on the selection of people that Mustihussain contacted, I was initially worried we'd end up with an artificial "consensus" that all of the hereditarian content should be removed.Boothello (talk) 01:16, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

excuse me but you wrote: "i see no one discussed these edits on the talk page, not mustihussain, or the ip, or anyone reverting the ip." you even mentioned hrafn and ramdrake by name. i notified all the editors who reverted the ip. yes, slrubenstein wasn't one of the editors who reverted the ip but victor, who you notified, didn't do it either. this does not constitute canvassing at all. -- mustihussain (talk) 20:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

@Boothello, I'll reiterate my advice, with a slight twist. By all means, please be bold and start editing the article to improve it. Such activity is likely to be more productive than discussing the finer niceties of WP:CANVASS on the talk page. aprock (talk) 20:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I contacted Victor, Maunus and VsevelodKrolikov because they have all been actively involved in the talk page within the past month. I'm not sure why you contacted Slrubenstein, (who hadn't posted here in months) but didn't contact anyone I mentioned who's posted here just as recently.

@Aprock: I will as soon as I'm sure the editors Mustihussain contacted will allow me to do so.Boothello (talk) 20:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You don't need "permission" to be bold, and if someone does give you "permission" they can still revert your edits. The key to moving forward is making constructive edits. No amount of talk page drama is going to improve the article. aprock (talk) 20:48, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Like I said above, please give me a few days - I'll attempt a rewrite of this section. This will likely take a little longer than the evolutionary theories section because there's more material that needs to be summarized.Boothello (talk) 01:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

again, it was you who pointed out that these editors were not discussing...and when they do you get cold feet.-- mustihussain (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Did Mustihussein "canvass me?" All I can say is (1) M and I have often disagreed and (2) I really, honestly was part of a mediation in which I and several others confronted a serious of highly contentious issues and worked towards painstaking compromises. These reflected th POVs of opposing parties. I do not care about "MY POV" being preserved, I care about the careful results of the mediation being preserved, and all I asked was that newcomers take some time to see how the article reached this state. Does this really sound like canvassing? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:39, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Slr, would you mind giving me a link to this mediation you're talking about? If it's important to know about it in detail I'd like to take a look at it, thanks.Boothello (talk) 20:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I would have to search the archive, which you can do just as easily. In addition to myself MathSci was a prominent participant, and Aprock, and for some time TechnoFaye. it is all in the archives. If you are a newcomer to Misplaced Pages everything is perfectly transparent: you can see all past versions of this article through the article's history, and you can see all prior talk through the talk page archives. Nothing is hidden from you and you have the same access all of us have. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:34, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Well I'm another one asked to give my opinion. I think that surveys of professionals in a field give he best approximation to scientific consensus, better than official bodies or governments or newspapers. I this field The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book) needs to be taken very seriously. That survey does not support the removal of what keeps on being called hereditarian. The names here imply a political agenda rather like one bunch of psychologists I came across who declared their aim was to prove that blacks had the same intelligence as whites. The controversy needs to be reported because here is a controversy. The general consensus what there is of it needs also to be reported and it can be done separately by saying what the major bodies and surveys say. That way there doesn't have to be any sillly pruning of things to try and achieve some measure of weight in text. It should just be said out straight in a section about what the best opinion is and the controversy and studies reported elsewhere in the article. Dmcq (talk) 21:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

In this case it happens that experts in the field do not think that that survey is worth much - and its results in any case doesn't reflect the scholarly consensus in published academic literature but rather a "colk consensus" among scholars. And it is also quite clearly established that Rothman and Snyderman had a political agenda. We have discussed this study a lot already with other editors.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:35, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

If you have something to add to that article about its reception please do so. All I see along those lines is the Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science being very against it and that certainly sounds a fairly political organization to me! Have you got good evidence using another survey perhaps that that survey is flawed or have you some paper talking about a flaw in the design of the survey? If so add them to the article and improve Misplaced Pages. Dmcq (talk) 21:48, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course as I said major bodies like the lead bit "the american psychological association has said that while there are differences in average iq between racial groups, there is no conclusive evidence for environmental explanations, there is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation, and no adequate explanation for the racial iq gap is presently available" should be mentioned as well as surveys in a discussion about what the mainstream view is. Are there any other surveys as well? Picking a single researcher and saying they give the mainstream view would simply be POV. Dmcq (talk) 21:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Mustihussain left a note on my talk which said please note the recent constructive debate on the subject.. Obviously I've been involved in this article before so this was a perfectly legitimate and neutrally worded notification. To be perfectly honest I had already noticed this discussion and was planning on making a comment but was bus with some other stuff just then. There's nothing wrong with this kind of notification. You're misunderstanding WP:CANVASS.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I don't see any evidence of 'canvassing' - we are discussing how the article can be improved, not !voting. In my case, I have this article on my watchlist anyway, and was already aware of the discussion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I have it on my watchlist too but didn't feel like responding before but got a request on my talk page. There just seem to be so many people with an axe to grind in the area ans I have a finite life. Dmcq (talk) 22:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

yes, you got a request where boothello asked you to participate...compare that to my neutral notifications to editors who boothello himself called for. i thought that the discussion was going well since boothello admitted that the hereditarian arguments were undue i.e. he agreed with all the discussing editors. you on the other hand are repeating the arguments of miadre who is banned for 3 months.-- mustihussain (talk) 05:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• To put it bluntly, all other things being equal, my probability of responding to a thread tends to be inversely related to the thread length (see Dmcq's comments for two reasons why, a third would be the high probability of anything you say getting lost in the mass of text). And I would suspect that I'm not the only one. If Boothello wants unprompted comments, then more needs to be done to keep the threads short & to the point -- which means avoiding tangents like this one. This sort of article-topic is an absolute magnet for interminable circular discussions -- and really I'm not in the mood for such at the moment. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 01:33, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no evidence for the claim that "environmentalism" is mainstream and "hereditarianism" is not. People have made this claim numerous times on the talk page, and I have asked for evidence for it a dozen times, but none was ever been forthcoming. It is undoubtedly true that political activists and non-experts favor the environmental explanation, but when you poll experts, the results are altogether different, as shown by Rothman and Snyderman. Maunus claims that "experts in the field do not think that that survey is worth much - and its results in any case doesn't reflect the scholarly consensus in published academic literature", but this is untrue, too. Sternberg whom Maunus is apparently referring to said that the experts favor the hereditarian view only because they share popular prejudices, which is a stupid argument directly contradicted by the survey (which shows that non-experts lean towards environmentalism, whereas experts lean towards hereditarianism).

I do not appreciate the fact that some editors blank entire paragraphs of the article without first discussing the issues on the talk page. Many of these paragraphs are the result of much debate on the talk page, and they should be removed only if there's consensus on doing so. To present, say, Nisbett's views as the final word on some issue is wrong because he has been heavily criticized in the literature.--Victor Chmara (talk) 11:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Your own opinion on whether an RS is making a stupid argument is neither here nor there. Might I suggest you refrain from such comments? It would make your requests for "evidence" sound a little more genuine if you did.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 12:07, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The only representative survey of expert opinion shows that the hereditarian position is very common among experts, and not so common among non-experts. This directly refutes your and Sternberg's claims. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, stop making baseless claims about what the mainstream view is.--Victor Chmara (talk) 12:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

(moved to section below) aprock (talk) 17:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

interesting. could you please post this in the "undue weight"-thread below ? this "canvas"-thread is just too messy.-- mustihussain (talk) 17:33, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

undue weight

it seems that everyone, including boothello, agree that the hereditarian hypothesis is given undue weight. that should be the starting point of the discussion. i also recommend marek's and hrafn's excellent recommendations in the "geographic ancestry" thread-- mustihussain (talk) 05:33, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

That's completely false. Please present evidence that the environmental hypothesis is the mainstream view.--Victor Chmara (talk) 11:20, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

There is ample evidence you are arguing in a familiar vein here ignoring the APA report, the AAA and AAPA statements, the Unesco statements, and virtually every publication not written by a pioneer grantee.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Second that. Evidence would be as for example in Scientific consensus on climate change. Anything by recognized bodies and surveys complete with citations. Not any of this tarring of names and saying of course they have this position or that and saying one's favourite writer is the mainstream. The subject is contentious, proper citations are needed rather than making private agreements on talk pages to present just one side or the other and vote out the other. Dmcq (talk) 11:48, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Any division between mainstream and non-mainstream here is not comparable to the climate change debate. There, the "minority" view has more or less no place in a discussion of the science at all given that it is more or less absent from the scientific literature. No one here is suggesting that the work of Jensen et al is comparable to someone like Anthony Watts or Lord Monckton, who operate outside academia entirely. No one is saying it should be cut out and ignored completely. There's also not going to be the same kind of statements issued on the mainstream view by peak science associations, not least because this debate does not have the same political urgency.

As evidence, we have the statements that are in the lede from the APA, AAA and AAPA. There is also the chapter in the general collection The Cambridge Handbook of Intelligence on race and intelligence that treats Rushton, Jensen etc. more or less as wrong and against current thinking on race and intelligence measurement; that there seem to be the same few names appearing again and again (Jensen, Rushton, Lynn) the non-acceptance of their work by many acacdemics is frequently mentioned even by those defending some of what they say (such as in this book and so on (if you search google books for university imprints that mention race, intelligence and then one of the authors above, you'll see what I mean - these guys are not flavour of the month most of the time). As far as I can see, what the minority view is (as represented by the authors above) as far as it touches on this page, is not simply that intelligence is in no small part heritable (something which is not disputed much), but that there are clear and important differences in intelligence that can be attributed to genes generally shared within racial groups as commonly understood (the "folk" perception that Sternberg refers to). At least, that appears to be the basis of the critique of the majority of scholars I find when doing searches. This is why it seems to me that the Pioneer Fund people's research is considered not mainstream.

What is important to remember (and it's something I think Victor Chmara overlooks with his comments about stupid arguments and how he himself is refuting RS) is that[REDACTED] isn't here to find the truth. If Jensen, Rushton and Lynn are being unfairly caricatured by mainstream scholars, that's a great shame, but we don't correct the matter on this page. Where reliable, respectable defences of them are mounted in the literature we should include that. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

To be clear, there was a single question in the 1984 survey which highlighted the views of IQ experts alone. Reviewing the article, it appears that 46% thought that genetics played a role, while 60% thought that environment played a role. Among those who thought environment or genetics dominated, environmental outnumbered the genetic views 15:1. So yes, among self selected IQ experts, a significant minority think that genetics plays a role of some kind. Notably absent in these 27 year old views are the views of geneticists, anthropologists, and other experts that study the interplay of genes, the environment, and social outcomes. aprock (talk) 17:20, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Amongst the 661 returned questionnaires, 14% declined to answer the question, 24% voted that there was insufficient evidence to give an answer, 1% voted that the gap was "due entirely to genetic variation", 15% voted that it "due entirely to environmental variation" and 45% voted that it was a "product of genetic and environmental variation". Another bigoted way of representing these figures is that 14% declined to answer, 24% sat on the fence, 46% thought genes played a part and 15% thought they didn't. Dmcq (talk) 17:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

A "bigoted" (whatever that means) way of representing the survey would be to say that only 30% of experts surveyed responded that genetics plays a factor. Of course, that represents all the surveys sent out, including those not returned. Such is the difficulty with interpreting self selected responses. That's why we let secondary sources do the synthesis when it comes to writing articles. aprock (talk) 19:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

is this survey reliable? is it noncontroversial?-- mustihussain (talk) 17:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I was quoting from The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy (book), I'm sure people can put on their own bias! That article has a see also for a couple of other. I'd have a problem with Mainstream Science on Intelligence for instance because the people signing it were to some extent self selected whereas I'm much happier with surveys and national organizations. Dmcq (talk) 18:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

it's a primary source?-- mustihussain (talk) 18:20, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

It's a fine source for what it says: that ~25 years ago, a significant minority of self selected IQ experts thought genetics played some role in the black-white IQ gap. aprock (talk) 18:22, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

ok, but the question of primary vs reliable secondary sources is important.-- mustihussain (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The IQ Controversy book has very limited relevance to the dispute here. The only direct question surveyed on the subject alluded specifically to black/white differences. Besides this, the multiple choices offered are simplistic. Of survey repondents, 1% said the gap is "entirely genetic", 15% that it's "entirely environmental". 45% say it's some combination of both which-obviously-lumps "almost all but not entirely genetic", "almost all but not entirely environmental" and all points in between. The authors of the book furnish this interpretation that a "majority of respondents" consider genetics an "important" determinant, which a) is not how the question posed in the survey and b) potentially misleading since a "minority" of respondents affirmed genetics was involved at all, period.

And what this does or doesn't say about the consensus of any particular researcher on this topic is completely speculative. Elsewhere the survey includes questions about the opinion of some experts by name, but again these aren't much use here. Even the authors of the book are dismissive of the findings there with the rationale "the abundance of very low ratings for those who publicly postulate genetic influences on group differences thus seems to reflect the views of both those who disagree with these positions and those who may agree but believe certain things are best left unsaid."

Long and short is survey or no survey, the IQ Controversy book is simply a secondary source expressing its own opinion of mixed responses received. The authors themselves make this perfectly clear. "We have at present no concise description of the nature and variety of expert opinion on such issues as the origin and stability of intelligence, test use and misuse, bias in testing, and racial and economic group differences in IQ." Professor marginalia (talk) 20:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

the book is clearly unreliable and speculative. in addition, it's also a primary source since the survey was conducted by the authors themselves. i agree that it's not relevant to this discussion.-- mustihussain (talk) 20:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Primary in terms of the findings and significance of the survey itself. The book's also chock full of claims, opinions, and speculations coming elsewhere, besides the survey. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Krolikov, the Cambridge Handbook also contains a chapter, the last one by Hunt, where the hereditarian and environmentalist hypotheses of racial differences are treated as more or less equally plausible explanations, so it's a total misrepresentation to claim that the book treats the arguments of Jensen, Rushton, etc. as false. Hunt also underlines the fallaciousness of the claim by Sternberg et al. that the greater within- than between-population variation would invalidate the genetic relevance of the race concept.

You keep bringing up the Pioneer issue, but this is not something that the relevant academic journals and researchers pay any attention to. Research sponsored by the Pioneer Fund, such as Thomas Bouchard's extremely influential twin studies, has been and continues to be published in mainstream journals, and it keeps getting cited by other researchers. As I have demonstrated before, the main anti-hereditarian treatments of the race and intelligence question (e.g. Nisbett and The Black-White Test Score Gap) do not even mention the Pioneer Fund.

Snyderman and Rothman first published their survey results in The American Psychologist, the flagship journal of the APA, so it's as mainstream as it gets. The IQ Controversy book is a secondary source that explicates the findings of the survey. While it's not a very recent source, it is the most informative source ever published on the prevalence of hereditarian views among experts, and its results thoroughly refute the claim that the anti-hereditarian view is prevalent among experts. I am still waiting for sources showing that Snyderman and Rothman are wrong.

My suggestion is that we treat the environmental and hereditarian views as equally plausible and mainstream and present the relevant findings and arguments that support each of these views.--Victor Chmara (talk) 21:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The oft touted Snyderman and Rothman study points to broader acceptance of environmental explanations over a generation ago. The APA report indicates that environmental factors are better established than genetic factors. When referring to the Cambridge Handbook, it is probably better to stick with Daley's chapter on the actual topic of Race and intelligence instead of referring to Hunts historical retrospective. Even Dawkin's incidental discussion in the Ancestor's Tale indicates that the mainstream view is that of Lewontin's and that racial differences are largely superficial. You're promoting the hereditarian viewpoint to "equal plausibility" against reliable secondary sourcing. aprock (talk) 21:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

It makes no sense to pick one chapter from a large book containing mutually contradictory chapters by different authors, and claim that that one chapter represents the consensus. The Cambridge Handbook contains lots of stuff, some of it widely accepted, some not.

Dawkins says in his book that Edwards is right and Lewontin wrong. This is what Dawkins wrote:

"It is genuinely true that, if you measure the total variation in the human species and then partition it into a between-race component and a within-race component, the between-race component is a very small fraction of the total. Most of the variation among humans can be found within races as well as between them. Only a small admixture of extra variation distinguishes races from each other. That is all correct. What is not correct is the inference that race is therefore a meaningless concept. This point has been clearly made by the distinguished Cambridge geneticist A. W. F. Edwards in the recent paper called ‘Human genetic diversity: Lewontin’s fallacy’."

Edwards's argument is regarded as true, because empirical evidence says it's true. In fact, this was known as far back as the early 1960s when the first PCAs of multilocus genetic variation were published, as Edwards points out in his article. The logic behind Edwards's argument is approvingly discussed also in Muehlenbein's Human Evolutionary Biology, Vogel and Motulsky's Human Genetics, and other standard textbooks. Above all, Lewontin's fallacy has been exposed in numerous empirical studies showing that human genetic variation is geographically structured. From a 2010 Nature article:

"Although the average level of population differentiation is low (at sites genotyped in all populations the mean value of Wright’s Fst is 0.071 between CEU and YRI , 0.083 between YRI and CHB+JPT , and 0.052 between CHB+JPT and CEU), we find several hundred thousand SNPs with large allele frequency differences in each population comparison (Fig. 5c). As seen in previous studies, the most highly differentiated sites were enriched for non-synonymous variants, indicative of the action of local adaptation."

Those numbers are compatible with Lewontin's argument about there being more variation within than between populations, but as suggested by Edwards, cumulative allele frequency differences is where the real population differences reside. Hundreds of thousands of SNPs exhibiting large frequency differences between continental races means that almost unimaginably large phenotypic differences between races are, in principle, possible. (This picture of human genetic variation may, however, be somewhat obsolete already. A recent paper looking at rare variants missed by earlier studies claims that "the majority of human genomic variable sites are rare and exhibit little sharing among diverged populations". This would suggest that most genetic variation is between populations.)--Victor Chmara (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

You keep on saying it was a self selected sample. It was not. The 1020 experts were chosen randomly from various professional bodies in psychology, there's a list of the bodies selected from and it seems pretty reputable to me. I think it is better to just state the figures than give your interpretation. The APA report establishes nothing. It says it doesn't know, that the evidence is not conclusive for either. This article summarizes the difference as 'there is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation, and no adequate explanation for the racial IQ gap is presently available'. That seems a reasonable position to me. Practically no-one thinks the difference is purely genetic and many think it is wholly environmental but a large portion think a non trivial part may be due to genetic factors. As far as actual real world policies is concerned nothing has been established and we're better off assuming the difference is purely environmental as that's all we can really affect. However as far as studies ae concerned saying one side is mainstream and the other is marginal is simply wrong - it is not like climate change that way. Dmcq (talk) 22:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

As some one who works with "APA Reports" on occasion they are not opinion pieces written by the one member or board resolution from people who do not have expertise. They are panels selected from leader in the field and are submitted to external reviewers. When in finished form APA reports are the official positions of the organization in a particular controversy The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:45, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree that giving them equal weight is unjustified. And remember, we have to stick to the "race and intelligence" issue. The twin studies and Ancestor's Tale don't help. Snyderman doesn't either. All it offers is a single simplistically worded multiple choice question in a 25 year old survey (and incorrectly worded, as its own authors describe it).

It seems the discussions wandered into another rabbit hole anyway. How much weight to give a particular source or claim isn't determined by this broader question about whether or not most in the field think the race gap is significantly genetic in origin. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The point is that we should use quantifiable yardsticks. Using cited sources for verifiability is a pillar of Misplaced Pages. What basis would you use if you don't depend on the opinion of the experts in the field? We're not qualified to make such decisions ourselves. Dmcq (talk) 22:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

What would you use to quantify this? Snyderman and Rothman indicate more support for environmental explanations. I don't think covering the issues in a 60:45 ratio of environmental:genetic explanations is unreasonable, but I'm pretty sure that's not the correct way going about determining these things. aprock (talk) 22:47, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

A Twenty-seven year old survey is useless for contemporary views on the issue anyway. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)vidence that the APA said something

WP:UNDUE is the relevant bit about it. It can be quite a bit out from that factor if there's more stuff on one than the other, its just a broad indicator and there may be a lot more to say for one side or the other but something like a factor of three difference from it should ring alarm bells. In the absence of statements from bodies and surveys we'd have to count the books and scholarly papers and come to some conclusion that way which is basically doing our own survey of the literature. Often it has to be done that way but it would be difficult to gain acceptance here where people dismiss books as worthless for weight when they disagree with them. Dmcq (talk) 23:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I'll go out on a limb and say[REDACTED] does not tend to rely on "quantifiable yardsticks" to judge the weight to give claims in articles--especially weighting all claims against the yardstick of a single, overly-broad, erroneously worded question in a 30 year old survey of a scientific topic. We assess the weight to give claims by looking at how much weight they receive in the best, most representative and authoritative published references. That's why I don't understand why any of us are focused on this one survey. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The official views of various national bodies should also be counted hightly of course in judging due weight. Weight should also be given to the statistics of how the views are represented in books and scholarly articles. The problem we have is that people are disputing what "most representative and authoritative published references" for due weight is and start running them down and promoting their own pet ideas or misinterpreting them as saying something they simply don't say. How about just not rewording what sources say, just weight them up whether you agree with them or not? Is someone here a better source? Dmcq (talk) 00:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I confess I'm lost. I don't know what you're referring to about "just not rewording what sources say". Doesn't that go without saying? Professor marginalia (talk) 01:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

This survey is 27 years old, and I think it's very much an over-interpretation to think that the 45% answering a single survey question all meant to agree with the positions of Jensen, Lynn et al. It's certainly worth mentioning, but given the more recent criticism of it, I don't think by itself it should be taken as a guide for balance for the article overall. It's not as if genetics has stood still for the past three decades, and the absence of specialists in concepts such as "race" also counts against it. We need to remember that this is more than just about heritability of intelligence.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

@p.marginalia&vsevolodkrolikov, i think it was dmcq or victor who brought the issue of the survey to one of the recent threads. before that it was miadre who kept writing about the survey before she was banned. as you and others have noted, the book is unreliable. in addition, it is a primary source in terms of the survey/findings. now, back to the topic: it's clear that the hereditarian arguments are overrepresented in the article (if victor disagrees i suggest another arbitration/mediation). we need now to discuss how to address the issue of undue weight. as a start we need to stick to the apa-statement which is supported by reliable secondary sources. the statement is clear (quote:"explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support. there is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation. at present, no one knows what causes this differential.").-- mustihussain (talk) 06:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

If you have evidence of its unreliability and bias or whatever about the survey then please go and update the article about it citing your sources. We need as you say reliable secondary sources. Dmcq (talk) 09:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

mustihussain, on what evidence do you base your claim that "hereditarian arguments are overrepresented in the article"? Please cite your evidence, your personal opinion has no weight here. The survey was originally published in The American Psychologist, and I can cite many secondary sources that report its findings on the prevalence of hereditarian views among experts. The book itself is a secondary source, and the article cites many sources discussing the survey findings. The APA report, published ten years after the survey, says that no one knows what causes the IQ gap, which certainly does not support the claim by Krolikov, Maunus, and others that the environmental explanation is the mainstream view.--Victor Chmara (talk) 11:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The APA statement says that the hereditarian explanation has "even less empirical support".·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Victor - I'll clarify if I've been unclear or clumsy in expressing myself. My position is not that the environmental explanation is the mainstream view, it's that the Pioneer Fund people's view (and they're all associated with the Pioneer Fund; it's a useful shorthand) appears to be in quite a minority. It's this particular view which seems to be over-represented.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't see that qualification for reliable sources in WP:RS. It also strikes me as a bit circular. Mainstream is defined by the publications in the field not including those by these guys because these guys are not mainstream. Personally I think the evidence for any genetic component in the difference is pretty weak compared to environmental effects, however as per censorship is not the way of Misplaced Pages and you'll need good evidence that the scientific method is not being followed before rejecting everything any of their members write. Have you got evidence for instance that their peer reviews are fixed or paid for? Dmcq (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

It's a matter of WP:FRINGE, WP:DUE, WP:NPOV. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 16:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Dmcq - no one is arguing that everything written by Pioneer Fund people should be thrown out. The argument is that as it stands the impression is given that their views have greater credence in the academic community than is actually the case. Less, not zero.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:35, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I got a completely different impression from this discussion, e.g. the person just before who dismisses it all as fringe. Perhaps you could provide an estimate of how many of the signatories of Mainstream Science on Intelligence are members of the Pioneer Fund or were they just deluded or are they not reputable in some way? Dmcq (talk) 16:58, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

@dmcq&victor, in terms of the findings/survey "the iq controversy"-book is a primary source. even if it was not, a single secondary source doesn't establish verifiability for controversial claims. the claims have to be verified by additional reliable secondary sources. the mainstream view is clearly that the causes of the gap is unknown. however, it is also clear that the hereditarian hypothesis is weaker than the environmental, as stated by the apa, aaa, aapa and unesco. the flynn effect, the hampering of brain development by malnutrition and infectious diseases, the effects of being "caste-like minority" are all more mainstream arguments than the content in the "brain size"- or "evolutionary theories"- or "degree of l ess space.ancestry"-sections of the article. could you please provide reliable secondary sources that claim that the arguments in the "brain size"-, "evolutionary theories"-, "degree of geographic ancestry"-sections are more academically accepted or more mainstream than environmental arguments? these sections are also dominated by jensen and rushton. which reliable secondary sources claim that lynn, jensen and rushton are noncontroversial and more mainstream than e.g. flynn? they represent minority views, yet they get equal or more weight than mainstream arguments like the flynn effect.-- mustihussain (talk) 20:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I would like to hear more about the hampering of brain development by malnutrition and infectious diseases. I didn't want to wear purple pants 20:50, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Secondary sources are needed to show things are interesting and worth noting and for evaluative claims. Primary sources are perfectly okay if used straightforwardly avoiding original research or synthesis, they just shouldn't normally be dragged in if nobody has noted them. I have not claimed that genetic arguments are more mainstream, where did you get that idea from? If you have a look at the article the genetic studies get a bit more room but on the other side they also have more contrary arguments presented within that space so overall the pro genetic side gets less space. This is perfectly okay, If you cut space out of sections then the first thing that would have to go is discussion about results - that would mean that contrary arguments would be preferentially removed. Just develop the argument collaboratively and produce a good article and the arguments will speak for themselves if they are any good. Dmcq (talk) 21:58, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Some mainstream secondary sources

• "Psychology" by Schacter, Gilbert and Wegner (2009) "Everyone agrees that some percentage of the between-group difference in intelligence is accounted for by experiential differences, and the only question is whether any of the between-group difference in intelligence is accounted for by genetic differences. Some scientists believe that the answer to this question is yes, and others believe the answer is no. Perhaps because the question is so technically difficult to answer or perhaps because the answer has such important social and political repercussions, there is as yet no consensus among those who have carefully studied the data. To draw firm conclusions about genetic causes of between-group differences will require (a) the identification of a gene or gene complex whose presence is strongly correlated with performance on intelligence tests and (b) the demonstration that this gene or gene complex is more prevalent in one group than another. Such findings are critical to establishing the role of genes in producing between-group differences." (my emphasis)
• "Human biological varioation" Mielke, Konigsberg & Relethford (2006) "IQ is perhaps the most studied and controversial trait dealt with in behavioral research. There is still wide debate over the exact meaning of IQ scores. Are they good measurements of innate intelligence, measures reflecting one's ability to take an IQ test, or both? Twin and family studies have consistently demonstrated a heritable component; however, the magnitude varies considerably, and more recent work in behavioral genetics suggests previous estimates of the heritability of IQ may be biased upward. There is evidence for both genetic and environmental influences on IQ scores. Group differences in IQ test scores, such as found in American whites and blacks, appear to be due to environmental differences." (my emphasis)·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

This article has been the subject of endless wars between hereditarian and environmentalist editors, with the former trying to make this article 50/50 and the latter trying to show environmentalism as the mainstream. To put it bluntly, these 2 positions are baloney. The hereditarian position is that PART of the gap is genetic, and is thus accurately represented by the survey, in which hereditarians outnumbered environmentalists 3 to 1 and were an outright majority of those who responded. (I wonder what the position of those who didn't respond were, hint hint.) (That was just a side comment, so don't spend 5 pages addressing it.)

Until we have another actual survey, (rather than one line unsupported comments) the results of this one should be taken at face value. The article should represent hereditarianism as the mainstream view and the intro drastically altered to show this fact. The survey, being the best thing on what exactly is the mainstream, should probably be made more obvious rather that buried halfway down the history section. P.S. Any survey is better than no survey at all, which is what the enviros have. 110.32.141.208 (talk) 08:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

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