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Notability of High Schools

While I am certainly not going to recommend a revert of your re-addition of the notability tag to Salmon High School, could you please review my remarks on the talk page of the article? I have just been going off of what consensus has been since I joined in February. Perhaps a new policy could actually be created/implemented one way or the other. Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I just commented on the talk page and am happy to discuss it further. I'm also thinking about editing that essay, which I think is just wrong. It would be overwhelmingly voted down if proposed as policy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:42, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have commented on the talk page of the article. In addition, I believe the notability tag can now be removed from that article. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:04, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the essay. A cyclical routine has been created. The essay talks about why editors !vote keep for high schools and editors !vote keep for high schools because of the essay. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the point that you added has a basis in current consensus (I agree with your position, but I think we are in the minority). I don't think a single verified high school has been deleted at AfD in years. Of course consensus can (and, in my opinion, should) change, but the way consensus at AfD works is that if a high school is verified by a reliable source, then the AfD will close as "keep" (and, most likely, the nominator get slapped by a trout). ThemFromSpace 06:21, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

What about a salmon? ;) Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Just as a question on notability. What is the basis that every College/University deserves an article? There are many small technical colleges with little information. Check out Teacher's Training College of Kruševac. The high school in my town has much more information than that. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:25, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Schools have documented news/book notability: I think the point is still to know the school/college is mentioned in WP:RS sources, so that not every "village classroom" gets an article. However, ironically, because village schools are relatively rare, they are very likely to be notable from coverage in demographic documents or United Nations reports, etc. But, at least, people should not be inventing the "School of What's Happening Now" as a WP:HOAX, WP:SOAPBOX, or WP:COI for a private-school ploy to use WP as an advert for their school. I would still trust if an editor wrote, unsourced, how their innercity school shared a stadium with other nearby schools, rotating home/away games to allow each to have "Friday night football" but the school should not be a small corporation using WP to place ads. -Wikid77 08:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless such information about sharing a stadium, etc, can be sourced, it has no business in Misplaced Pages. It's not about trusting or not trusting, it's about what it means to be a quality reference work.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• I happen to agree that High Schools are not inherently notable, but I think I should point out the reason for confusion is that people took something Jimbo said and ran with it. It lead to these guidelines and the fact that High Schools are exempt from WP:CSD#A7 (discusions here). Now, the encylcopedia is a very different place than it was in 2003, but I just thought I'd re-iterate the background. Worm · (talk) 10:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• I watchlist a lot of high schools, maybe a hundred or two. They are cesspools areas of concern. Constant vandalism, tons of unsourced claims about the prowess of the sports teams, lists of clubs, copyvio'ed alma maters, copyvio'ed material from the school website (school and college articles are the worst for plagiarism -go figure), and totally unsourced lists of notable alumni that have to be patrolled for people who are claimed to have gone into gay porn, or district managers of paper companies. Whatever decisions mandated that all high schools are notable did a great disservice to the project. They are among the most problematic parts of Misplaced Pages.   Will Beback  talk  10:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC) revised 12:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is any such consensus. I hope you'll join me in improving Misplaced Pages:Notability (high schools), which is an essay which may have persuaded people falsely otherwise. The truth is that most high schools are not notable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I've certainly watchlisted it, and will attempt to chime in when I've got a bit of time. Worm · (talk) 10:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to pretty strongly disagree with your statement that there is no consensus on the issue--the argument you make in the essay is that because we don't have articles on most high schools there is no consensus that we should. Instead I'd argue that it's just because we haven't gotten to them all yet. The way to judge consensus on the issue has to be to see how high school articles have fared in the past. I've personally not seen a high school article deleted in the last 3 years and I think I've only seen 1 or 2 merged. There have been dozens, if not more, kept. Consensus has been pretty clear thus far and I don't see any evidence that there is a significant group that believes otherwise. Hobit (talk) 11:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. Many people believe that these are extremely problematic articles, see the discussion above from Will Beback. There is no consensus that these articles are exempt from normal notability policy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I won't dispute that they are problematical articles, one of the risk words I patrol is Pubic and you'd be unamazed at the number of schools that think we are so short of cash that it would help us save a few electrons by removing the first l from "Public School". But as for notability, I'd assumed the consensus was more that any High School is bound to have generated sufficient coverage to pass the GNG if we did but look. ϢereSpielChequers 11:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Once again the fixation on existence of sources seems to be a problem. The sources that theoretically establish notability of a high school are of no use for us if you have to go physically to the newspaper archive of a little town to find them, and nobody is willing to do that. There is a very similar problem with WP:ACADEMIC, by the way. On the other hand we sometimes have to IAR keep well-written articles on topics that are encyclopedic beyond doubt but for some reason fail the formal notability criteria. Hans Adler 11:42, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have some sympathy for Will Beback's viewpoint, having dealt with quite a lot of this sort of vandalism and unsourced cruft-additions on schools articles myself. However, I really don't think it's as bad as he suggests; only a few days ago, I reverted an IP's alumnus-addition, templated the IP and demanded a source, and the IP duly provided one. Positive result. (Ignore, for now, the fact that the alumnus shouldn't be there as a redlink anyway). Schools articles do get a lot of vandalism, and are, mostly, in an appalling state, with few or no references. However, so are many BLPs, many articles on companies, and so on.

Sportspeople and small settlements, as I understand it, get some of the same "protection from notability requirements" that schools are perceived as having had, and many of those articles have problems just as bad (think of the cases where a minor sportsperson gets a controversial conviction and becomes a BLP problem; or a very minor sportsperson BLP gets vandalised and no-one is watchlisting it so the vandalism stays in for years; or a sportsperson makes a blunder in an important game and there's a hail of BLP-infringing vandalism). People have been enforcing the suggested ban on mass creation of articles on high schools, but seemingly mass creation of articles on small or very small settlements still takes place occasionally; and it's been discussed on this talkpage before, how many of those articles end up being full of complete garbage. (And anyway, is a settlement with 40 people in it, so much more automatically notable than a school with over 2000 people in it?)

I really don't see that high school articles are a crisis area; they are merely a generally low-quality area. And I think the majority of people really do think that the current approach is the best way of handling a difficult situation. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I do, as with any company or corporation out there. I'm certain that there are school district officials who whitewash articles about their schools, just as we know there are corporate officials out there who whitewash articles about their corporations. If I go to Special:UnwatchedPages, I'm sure I will see many school articles on that list, so who knows what is going on there?

This comes back to my point regarding the main topic at hand, which is verifiability: Just because we know there are various parts of Misplaced Pages that are not reliable, that does not mean that we should not try to make those parts reliable, nor should we expect the general public to accept such parts as unreliable. The reality is that the public still accepts Misplaced Pages as an authoritative source of information – whether or not its information may be right or wrong. At least I still hear, on an almost daily basis, people who say "go to Misplaced Pages" or similar to look up stuff related to my conversations with others. –MuZemike 15:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• There is no doubt whatsoever that for a long time it has been widely accepted that high schools are automatically notable. This has been accepted in goodness knows how many AfD discussions. I have therefore taken the view that, rightly or wrongly, consensus supports that position. However, prompted by this discussion, I have thought about the question again, and I am not so sure. The line "high schools are automatically notable" is by no means universally accepted, and is very frequently questioned, and often, even when an AfD has closed as "keep, because consensus is that high schools are automatically notable", there has been one or more editors that have clearly been unhappy with that situation. Indeed, I am not sure whether there are actually more editors who think that all high schools should be regarded as notable than those who think not: it may just be that there are more who believe that that is what most others believe, and say "keep" because they believe that is the accepted consensus, rather than because they support that view themselves. There is a good deal of truth in Ryan Vesey's point above about the circularity of the situation: essay says a high school is automatically notable because that's what AfDs decide, but AfDs go that way because the essay says so (and it is not only that essay, but other sources too). The link that Worm That Turned has given above to what Jimbo said in 2003 is very interesting. I don't know how true it is that that was the origin of this "all high schools can have articles" line, but whether it was or not, it seems to me that Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines misrepresents what Jimbo said, by quoting out of context. Jimbo went on to say "That's true *even if* we'd react differently to a ton of one-liners mass-imported saying nothing more than 'Randolph School is a private school in Huntsville, Alabama, US' and 'Indian Springs is a private school in Birmingham, Alabama, US' and on and on and on, ad nauseum. The argument 'what if someone did this particular thing 100,000 times' is not a valid argument against letting them do it a few times." Well, we now actually are in the situation where a lot of people write trivial articles that say little more (or in some cases no more) than that a school exists, and "automatic notability" is invoked to keep them. Thus the remarks Jimbo made in 2003 explicitly do not apply to the present situation. It seems to me that the notion "all high schools are notable" comes from the image of a typical high school that most editors in the USA have, and to a lesser extent in some other countries, such as the UK. In the USA a "High School" is commonly a pretty large institution, run by some sort of local government, often very prominent in its local community. I can quite see why anyone thinking of schools of that kind thinks "of course they are notable, and it's pointless forcing people to produce sources to show that it is." However, not all high schools or secondary schools are like that. I know of very small and insignificant private secondary schools that certainly don't satisfy any of Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines, and in many parts of the world a lot of secondary schools are small and non-notable. WereSpielChequers says "the consensus was more that any High School is bound to have generated sufficient coverage to pass the GNG if we did but look", but that is not necessarily true of all types of high school in all parts of the world. It also seems to me to be illogical to use that argument in a case where several editors have looked and failed to find such coverage. Will Beback is only too right about the character of school articles: a very larger proportion of them are spam, essentially use of Misplaced Pages to publish prospectuses and advertising brochures. While that is not a proof of non-notability, it is certainly a reason for not being happy about a principle which makes it harder to delete them. All in all, these considerations encourage me to think it may well be time to reconsider the widely accepted view that "consensus is that high schools are inherently notable". Finally, Demiurge1000's comparisons with articles on other subjects, such as "is a settlement with 40 people in it, so much more automatically notable than a school with over 2000 people in it" is completely irrelevant, for WP:OTHERSTUFF reasons. (My own view is that a settlement with 40 people in it is almost always not notable, but that is equally irrelevant.) Also, thanks to an edit conflict, Demiurge1000 has confirmed one of the points I made above before I could post it: 2000 may be a typical size for a high school in the USA, but it certainly isn't where I live, and the issue is whether all high schools are automatically notable, not whether typical public high schools in the USA are automatically notable. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • It's not WP:OTHERSTUFF to respond to an assertion that a particular type of article is "among the most problematic parts of Misplaced Pages" by pointing out that other parts are in fact equally problematic or more problematic. It addresses the point being made. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The flipside of consensus being that sources will usually be there if we did but look is that if someone looks and draws a blank or near blank then a deletion nomination might well succeed. As for settlements that currently only have 40 people, it depends on where in the world you are. Many such English rural villages are the near ghosts of once thriving communities whose notability is assured regardless of the events of the last couple of centuries. ϢereSpielChequers 12:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The post quoted at WP:WPSCH/AG#N was too long to include in full, and so was cut down to the key points only, with parts skipped indicated with dots. A link to the original post is provided for anyone to view it in full. I did not add the quote originally, but I did change it from a paraphrase to an actual quote. If anyone thinks a better summary can be provided, they are free to edit it and do so. On the whole, I wouldn't object to removing it completely since it is outdated and gives the impression of argumentum ad Jimbonem. CT Cooper · talk 12:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
    • I'd say it should be removed completely. As noted above by someone else, it's been misinterpreted. But in any event, it's very out of date.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
      • I have removed it. CT Cooper · talk 15:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment Notability can be in the eye of the beholder. If most Wikipedians are young, then of course their school is very important/notable to them and they will dig up any trivia possible to meet the threshold. We have Lists as well as Categories for a reason. If a school's article if only a couple of lines long, if belongs in a List unless or until there's more information. That allows for a Redirect to be created for the school's name, so no school would be truly left out of Misplaced Pages. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 15:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the school mascot for a hypothetical school ought to be Schrödinger's cat. -- Avanu (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Slight divergence from the overall topic

We are focusing right now on the notability of High Schools in general, but I would like to quick ask about the inclusion of good articles about High Schools. Lets say an article is written about High School X. The article is well sourced; however, all of the sources come from a)The webpage of the school b)The local newspaper and c)The local newspaper of a rival school. The article lays out information including the administration, sports and other extracurriculars, rivalries with other schools, and maybe some school traditions or notable events (the usual bomb threats/hit lists found etc.). Again, everything in the article is sourced and for the current example we can assume that boosterism is minor or included using quotes. Should this school be included? Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that's fine, although maintenance and vandalism issues are a factor. What isn't fine is the exact same article with claims that have no sources. If the claims are not negative and damaging, then there is less urgency (from a BLP perspective) about removing them, and so I would advocate a quick look for sources and a dated citation needed tag first, and then deletion of the unsourced material after a period of time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with consensus if it does allow articles like this. I know there are many school articles who use Misplaced Pages as a personal web page, but I don't want the good quality articles to get thrown out with the bad ones. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I am a frequent contributor to school articles, mostly in South West England but also elsewhere if something interesting crops up in the AfD list or the schools wikiproject. I have seen a lot of the problems described here - one line stubs with no assertion of notability, unreferenced articles, puff-pieces, whitewashed articles, etc. If it is true that high schools are not automatically notable, and for one I would welcome that, then what would be really useful is clear set of high school notability guidelines within WikiProject Schools. As I see it, the quicker we agree on the default position, the quicker we can set about developing consensus on those guidelines by which all high school articles can be judged - and in turn set about cleaning up some of the real crap that is long overdue but has been protected from deletion because of the assertion that high schools are notable. --Simple Bob (Talk) 17:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: In hundreds of high school afds since 2005, almost none have been deleted. There's no better barometer of what consensus has been.--Milowent • 17:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree with you; however, I am beginning to like some of the new thought that is forming. That well written/well sourced articles on High Schools are notable. If an article on a high school cannot be well-written and well-sourced prior to the end of an AFD, it should be deleted. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
    • One thing that would help is if adding one of these tags automagically notified everyone who had ever worked on the article, and perhaps those signed up for any Project or Subproject the article falls into, such as the town or region. I think this is currently done manually, if at all. No one wants constant spam, but a one-week AfD implies more time spent checking than editing. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 18:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
      • I don't object to a new discussion on the topic, after all consensus does change. But to claim that the massive % of AFDs that result in a keep doesn't demonstrate a consensus is, well, a bit daft. It's clearly a historical outcome and it's also pretty darn clear that any high school is going to have significant coverage. Everyone has won a state championship in something. Every school has had a notable event occur at it that sees state-wide or wider coverage. And the construction of every school sees coverage. (feel free to replace "every" with "99%+"). They are all going to meet WP:N if we look hard enough. Hobit (talk) 18:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
        • Most high schools would be notable even if sources were only in print. But AfDs often don't go the way they should. On one AfD I had to state over and over that "while everyone agrees that this subject should be notable, no one can find a source." That seems to be the reason for keeping a lot of obscure articles on books, entertainment, high schools (or in my example a religious sect ). Some things "ought to be" notable- but remain unsourced in actual fact. I don't think that's good enough. But there should be some way to notify editors that potentially helpful information has been removed. B——C_{ritical__Talk} 19:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
          • Hobit, I would look forward to watching what the students at the non-notable 1% would decide to do in order to make their school notable and well-covered at least statewide. I have my doubts the principal, teachers and parents would feel the same way. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 19:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • IMO, the problem with all of those AFD keeps is that high schools have become notable for being notable. I haven't paid much attention to AFD in a couple years, but back in the day, pretty much the entire reason for keep in most AFDs was the assumption that a high school was inherently notable. As someone who disagreed with that position, I quickly realized that offering a dissenting opinion was a waste of time. Resolute 00:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

• All time spent at AfD is administrative overhead that should be minimized and avoided if possible. Having a bright line rule based on history here makes the handling of these AfDs very easy, scrutizing every high school article individually drains valuable resources that should go into creating and improving other articles. Now if Ryan Vesey and Becritical pledge to spend one hour researching every high school AfD for the next ten years, that might be different, but in my experience not many editors participate in these afds and we could end up with a lack of consistency with no discernable benefit if we make a change in standards. Likely, almost all high school articles will still be kept but much more admin overhead will be spent reaching that result, which is not efficient or logical. Anyone with free time is encouraged to come to Misplaced Pages:Unreferenced BLP Rescue where we have reduced the backlog of unreferenced BLPs from approx 25,000 to under 1,000 in the past year, come be a part of something meaningful, even if your old rival high school is a cesspool that never amounted to anything.--Milowent • 19:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • We should be spending our resources ensuring that all of our articles are fully kept up to our standards. School articles aren't any different, nor should they be avoided in favor of more important topics (many school articles are BLP magnets and attract unwatched vandalism; they need all the attention we can give). ThemFromSpace 19:49, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
    • The AfD process is terribly burdensome. Jimbo said above he thinks that many ought to be deleted, but I personally don't think there is a problem with leaving OR stubs when the subject might be notable. It's when there is a lot of unsourced info that we have the problem. The thing with these school articles is that most likely no-one is ever going to improve them much. Not every article can win the lottery of being randomly selected as an example in one of WP's internal discussions. That's why I went and stubbed the (already tagged/challenged) ones that looked like OR or at least were unverified. B——C_{ritical__Talk} 20:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have had around 600 schools on my watchlist for the last 3 years or so. Will Beback's comments appear (at least to me) to be more driven by emotion than reality. In response to Hobit's claims, I would say the figures are far more than '1 or 2' or 'dozens', perhaps even several zeros need to be added to the numbers. While I firmly believe that it is an error to suggest that schools may be among our most problematic articles, Worm and Demiurge1000 both make some valid observations. The strongest and most accurate assessment of the situation comes in the long post from JamesBWatson which I hope that everyone here will have taken the trouble to read in full. James's comment echoes my position and leaves me still in notability no man's land; I am personally not worried whether schools are notable or not, and all I want to do as a busy WP:WPSCH participant, and admin with a deletion button, is to have a clearly defined policy to implement. I'm sure that most of us who work on school AfDs are tired of having to second-guess an unwritten policy/precedent and I thoroughly support :Simple Bob's sentiment. Now that Jimbo has explained his current position regarding his original 2003 statement , perhaps we can hold an RfC that will reach a consensus and then draft that proper policy. One way or the other . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Of those 600 school articles you watch, how many are based on secondary sources?   Will Beback  talk  22:54, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have accumulated a number of around 600 random school articles on my watchlist, and it's only a tiny fraction of the tens of thousands of school pages we have here. Apart from the ones I created myself or helped to GA, they are ones I have repaired, expanded, added infoboxes and images, categorised, referenced, saved from deletion., and kept free of vandalism and puff. I've already stated that I don't have any personal preference one way or the other which way an eventual consensus might go for notability for schools - I just think it would be a very good idea for all this to be clarified once and for all, so that we have some clear rules and recommendations to work to that are officially accepted by the community. Where is the relevance of your question to that? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

My point is that all Misplaced Pages articles should be based on secondary sources. If we're creating articles for which there are no significant secondary sources then we're violating core content policies. Many, perhaps most, high school articles have no secondary sources for much more than an occasional sports report or scandal. Here's a typical example. Ponderosa High School   Will Beback  talk  02:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to second Will Beback's sentiment; I have had quite a number of high schools on my watchlist (any Recent Changes Patroller will inevitably come upon them). While I think it would be wrong to say that the majority of edits to them are vandalism, I think it would be accurate to say that the majority of edits to them are unsourced, POV, or incorporate excessive WP:NOT content (like a list of every time team X made the regional playoffs, or a list of all of the AP classes at the school). However, I don't think that this has a real bearing on whether or not the schools are/should be default notable, because we don't consider how highly targeted an article is for bad edits when we decide whether or not to keep an article (with the possible exception of some list articles).

Having said that though, maybe the best option for forward progress would be a centralized discussion (Village pump?) on whether or not the current consensus is that high schools should have default notability. Then, the results of that discussion can help inform us whether we should promote WP:NHS to guideline status or rewrite it and clearly indicate it's a historical/non-consensus essay. Like many other editors, I currently accept that the consensus is that all high schools are inherently notable, because that's what I've been told, but I question whether, if actually asked, this consensus would emerge as correct. The problem, of course, is that we're really just debating that fundamental question of whether our lack of a deadline means that we should include things that may possibly be verified for long periods of time, or whether the lack of deadline means that we should wait on these articles until such time as the sources have already been found, so I'm not sure that we'll get a useful result from such a discussion. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the much bigger problem is the hundreds/thousands of elementary/primary schools that have artciles about them and I would love to see a policy that they were default not notable, with clear criteria to show what would make them notable. For instance, does notability of alumni make a school notable? Fmph (talk) 08:53, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:INHERIT Agathoclea (talk) 09:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

More than anything, being noted makes a topic notable. Anytime we make a rule which diverges from that we're likely to end up with a bunch of under-sourced articles. When we write about other organizations we require that there be a minimum of sources. Somehow a special exception has been cut out for high schools, but it is inconsistent with how we treat other organizations.

Qwyrxian is right that school articles often contain too much poorly sourced trivia. The Schools project may be too focused on keeping every article and not focused enough on making sure that all of those articles meet basic standards. Some of the problems with school articles could be addressed with a big cleanup project. But the notability issue should be settled first.   Will Beback  talk  09:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

But WP:INHERIT is yet another essay, and one that is regularly ignored on article pages. A clear policy or guideline that says elementary schools are not notable unless .... would be hugely helpful. Fmph (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Fmph.

That being said, my contribution to this little discussion is that schools do end up being mentioned in various sources, either as the alma mater of so-and-so or where such-and-such happened, or what have you. There are a lot of crappy school articles out there, but it doesn't mean that these articles can't (or won't) be improved. But I think that they're a minority (maybe a large minority) of school articles (judging from the however many Australian schools in my watchlist). Can I suggest, though, that instead of pursuing a kill-on-sight policy with school articles where at least the existence of the school is verifiable that they be userfied/projectified until someone can get through and source them up properly? User:Danjel/Coomera_State_Primary_School is a good example of a school that is probably noteworthy, and can be improved (and will be as soon as I have a moment to do it). ˜danjel 13:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

What if there is no consensus?

Putting aside the issue itself, what if there truly is NO consensus? Misplaced Pages guidelines, policies, practices, whatever you wish to call, seem to assume that there is, or eventually will be, a consensus on any given point. What if this is simply not the case? What if, using this subject as an example, one-third of interested editors believe that high schools are inherently notable, one-third believe that by default they are NON-notable, and one-third have no opinion on whether they are generally notable or non-notable and just take each case on an individual basis? (The three ideas and the numbers are just examples, I realize there are gradations in between and perhaps outside of these easily described positions, and I am not saying those are the proportions of editors in each group. But there are certainly AT LEAST those three positions, and I don't believe there is anywhere near a "consensus" (however defined) for any of them; in fact, I would be very surprised if there were even a majority for any of them.) What then? Do we talk about it and debate it forever? (It seems like we already have; this was a "hot issue" when I became an editor six years ago, and it is a hot issue now, so the likelihood that it is ever going to be resolved seems pretty slim.) Do we have people putting in and taking out paragraphs and nutshells from essays, or creating competing essays, until the end of time? Do we leave it for the AfD process, where the fate of each individual article depends in large part on who shows up? The AfD process on issues like this, where there really does not seem to be a consensus as to notability in general, reminds me of the Wild West -- no "law," no real policy, no real authority, just whoever is quickest on the draw and brings more people to the gunfight wins. There has to be a better way. What is it? Binding votes, majority wins? "ContentCom"? Something else? I don't know what the answer should be, and just as there probably is no consensus on the subject-matter itself, there probably would be no consensus on a method for dealing with it. Perhaps the last sound ever made by humans on Earth, before the Sun swallows up the planet, will be the sound of people edit-warring over whether there should be an article on East Side High. (Hm, maybe I've finally found the idea for the science fiction novel I'm going to write someday.) Neutron (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

.............Um...............yeah. B——C_{ritical__Talk} 23:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

• • Continue with case-by-case decisions: Where there is no consensus to write a decisive guideline (or policy), then the decisions would continue being made on a case-by-case basis. Hence, the notability of each specific school should be determined, as to whether that particular school gets a separate article or gets an entry in the list "Top 90 schools in Anytownville". Remember, there are those 2 main levels of notability: as a notable entry in a list (or inside another article), or individual notability to have a separate article. For multiple essays about the debates, then later, repetitive essays could be merged into the earlier essays. However, in the future, I suspect there will be a WP "notability tool" which counts the major sources (and how many times a topic is mentioned in each source) to suggest the notability level of a specific topic. Meanwhile, please do not be frustrated that debates continue for years, because in the world at large, some debates have continued for decades or centuries (such as: Is quantum mechanics an explanation of reality, or just a math-trick which matches the data? Are positive near-death experiences a trip to a heavenly world, or just hallucinations of ICU psychosis?). -Wikid77 15:50, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:NHS

I am shocked that you have made radical alterations to this essay without talk page discussion, particularly as your alterations are completely against consensus through many years of AfDs. TerriersFan (talk) 22:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

On that note, I am starting a new essay which should roughly reflect the opinions laid out in User talk:Jimbo Wales#Slight divergence from the overall topic, at Misplaced Pages:All High Schools can be notable. Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:55, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed and that will simply establish systemic bias. Pretty well every public US high school can have an article that meets WP:GNG because of the importance of high school sports. However, the majority of high schools in Africa, Asia and other parts of the world will fail because they have no tradition of putting material on the Internet. Are we writing a world encyclopaedia or an Anglophone encyclopaedia? TerriersFan (talk) 23:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

We are writing an encyclopedia which is based on reliable, third-party sources. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Personally, if the community chooses to say, similar to towns, that all High Schools are notable if their existence can be confirmed, I would not complain. In respone to your statement about other parts of the world not having a tradition of putting material on the internet, material does not need to be on the internet to be a source on Misplaced Pages (although it is desirable). Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:21, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec)::::Such would be unlikely. In most cases, I would suggest Jimbo is correct there - and that Misplaced Pages has no problem with mentioning the schools in a "notable" town or city, just not having separate articles on every single Franklin High School in the US, and the like. And the fact that WP has "too many articles" on non-notable schools does not mean that therefore every high school worldwide sould be entitale to a waiverof independent notability. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

We have a whole host of subjects considered to be notable irrespective of meeting WP:GNG:

1. Inhabited recognised settlements
2. Named bridges
3. Numbered highways
4. Singers with a song in a chart in a major country
5. Super-regional malls
6. Airports
7. Railway stations
8. Porn stars who have won a recognised award
9. Fauna and flora
10. Association footballers who have played in a fully professional league
11. Academic full professors
12. High court judges
13. Peers of the realms

And many more. If we are going to tear up all these customary standards and require every page to meet WP:GNG then fine but don't just pick on high schools.

On your other point, experience shows that all high schools can meet WP:GNG given enough time but for non-Anglophone countries, searches need to be carried out in, for example, local libraries and they should not be deleted until those searches have been carried out. TerriersFan (talk) 00:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree that there are many schools outside of North America and Europe where it can be almost impossible to find information in the time span of one week. In order to address that issue, I am going to suggest moving these articles (where information can almost certainly be found, but it will take a while) to either a user subpage or a subpage of WikiProject Schools. I would also recommend that a redirect be left behind from the school to the city/village it is located in. Since the essay is still developing, I am going to freely add the information. If anyone has another idea and/or opposes mine, please leave a remark on the talk page of the essay. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:18, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Seems sensible here. Collect (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Ryan, why not simply suggest a sticky PROD for schools? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The last thing we need is another deletion process with another unique set of rules. Resolute 01:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Precisely. I'm glad you appreciated the irony in my comment. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:36, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't responded to your comment on a sticky PROD for schools because I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the use of a sticky PROD would be. In fact, a sticky PROD runs contrary to the goal I had in moving such schools to a subpage. Rather than using a statement filled with irony to oppose the idea I had (if that is what you were doing), why don't you lay out your concerns at Misplaced Pages talk:All High Schools can be notable? Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

We need to move away from all "automatically-notable" classes of articles, including the ones listed above. We need sources that provide evidence of notability for all articles. That's a fundamental concept of article writing. ThemFromSpace 01:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If that is the way that we wish to go then fine, lets move all the above classes from notability, and delete all subsidiary guidelines, eg Music, Porn, Sports, Books etc and test every page against WP:GNG. TerriersFan (talk) 01:52, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

These special guidelines have been controversial, for example there's the problem of the thousands of articles on professional athletes about whom little is know beyond their jersey numbers. Guidelines can be helpful in interpreting GNG, but they should not be used to allow articles for which there aren't sufficient sources.   Will Beback  talk  01:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

And most of the pages that are being misrepresented here as declaring subjects to be inherently notable directly say that this is a rule of thumb that lets you figure out whether independent sources are likely to exist, not a guarantee of notability, and that if nobody can actually find suitable sources to support the article, then it can and should be deleted (or, more commonly, merged into a larger topic). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

There is a huge educational/social benefit of having every High School have a presence in Misplaced Pages, which will instill a sense of pride, and serve as a starting point for educators to teach students about encyclopedias and guide students in various lessons that involve contributing to Misplaced Pages based on verifiable resources in their libraries. Also, it's unclear how Jimbo's interpretation could possibly be less informed than yours.Wxidea (talk) 04:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Not if the amount of edits they get is any indication. You'd think one or two of those students would edit, but the articles get very few edits, and probably most of them get very very few views . Compare a general article . B——C_{ritical__Talk} 05:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

@Be, that's an invalid page comparison. The majority of Misplaced Pages pages are only read a few times a year. See (http://www.idea.org/blog/2011/08/09/reaching-the-public-via-wikipedia/). Wxidea (talk) 12:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If WP:GNG is reasonably interpreted (despite, e.g., a strange reference to the infamously misused NOTNEWS), no ordinary high school should have trouble meeting it. Getting together two or more decent sources before starting the article isn't a bad thing. I think that the proliferation of special notability guidelines is one of Misplaced Pages's worst instances of instruction creep. Maybe we should have one sentence about allowing articles to slip past WP:GNG when primary sources document the subject and it is necessary to complete a group of articles about all members of a defined set - nothing more than that should ever have been started. Wnt (talk) 07:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

This page used to be a place where ideas originate that made wikipedia a better place now more and more it turns into a place tearing it down. Let us think for a moment - the reasoning that a High School is classed as notable was made made because for any project like this there are enough sources establishing notability ranging from independant sources covering construction/extention, comparative analysis, awards and championships. As mentioned somewhere recently the smaller the school the more likely it is it has drawn media attention due to parents fretting about the possible danger of closure. Those in themselves are sufficiant for inclusion. The question is can we just assume that these sources exist or do we have to have hard proof. Expecting that hard proof gives a strong systematic bias toward the western (English-speaking) world with a strong slant on recentism. Or do we have enaugh people in Liberia who can check the local newpaper archive and tree markings. There is good reason the foundation is sponsoring a audio sourcing programme somewhere in India. The content of the article is a totally different matter. Using non-notable as a synomyn for problematic is plain wrong. Deal with the content - stubbify - check if there is any outside indication that the school exists. Using presumed notablility has its drawbacks as I have seen footballers who played on international youth level garnering quite some attention (just not enaugh on the internet) deleted while totally unremarkable players get their article for a minutes play. While I would argue for the first to be included I would not argue for the second to be excluded as in order to get to that position of playing for one minute he must already have garnered attention. Maybe we need to through notablility out of the window alltogether and focus on importance /* sarcasm on */ which is totally quantifiable /* sarcasm off */. Agathoclea (talk) 07:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Eventualism is all good and well, but there has to be a starting point. What can we write about a school for which there are no reliable sources, or maybe just the school's website? If we're just repeating information off the official website then why bother having an article? Aside from small local papers may report graduations, awards and sports, almost the only time people write about schools is when there's a scandal or a crime. For most schools there are three alternatives: use just the school website, rely on perfunctory reporting from local sources about trivial topics, or write about shootings and seductions.   Will Beback  talk  09:31, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Seperate issues. Establishing notability (outside sources taking note) and content (Self-published sources and other published sources of dubious reliability may be used as sources in articles about themselves ... so long as the information is notable, not unduly self-aggrandizing, and not contradicted by other published sources). We have a few thousand articles about settlements/communities/municipalities and even towns whose content does not go beyond either the publications of the subject or a rehash of statistical data. Nothing wrong with that as at least the basic whats are covered. Agathoclea (talk) 10:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:PSTS, first line: Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. We can use primary sources but we should not base articles upon them.

Settlements are a different matter from organizations, and best dealt with separately.   Will Beback  talk  10:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll add Wxidea's comment above to my personal list of most important statements made here, especially as the WMF's major focus is to recruit new editors, and TerriersFan's list of thirteen WP:ORG exceptions sheds a different light, so whether as a result of misinterpretation of a comment made by Jimbo in 2003 or whatever, we have some established precedent, so let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet, but let's not not try to re-invent the notability wheel across the site either. Maybe we can just get this issue of school notability sorted out once and for all on a RfC that will finally reach a consensus one way or another.

By providing us with a clear set of rules to work from we could avoid so many school articles from being utter confusion for the new page patrolers who are largely extremely inexperienced in such matters, and prevent school AfDs serving as a traditional battleground for the inclusionists and the deletionists to pit their wits . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment All high schools are notable and belong in Misplaced Pages, not all high schools should have a separate article. Why is this a contentious point? This discussion started with the example of Salmon High School, a HS in a town of about 3,000 people. At one time, it would have been included as a paragraph or two under Education in the Salmon, Idaho article, along with some mention of the school district and whatever primary schools are in the town. Look at that town's article. Nothing about education, government, or various other topics covered in any good article about a town. Not even a link to the town's official website. The problem is determining where not if notable material belongs in Misplaced Pages. Instead, we have incessant demands and arguments about separate articles, no matter how thin and unlikely to be expanded. Why are so many so averse to making high schools redirects to their town's Education section? Sounds like an ego trip to me, some sort of "my high school's better than yours because it has a Misplaced Pages article." This is not meant as a criticism of Ryan Vesey and others who are justly proud of their alma maters, but a reminder that the concept of Undue Weight might well apply to articles themselves as well as sections within articles. Perhaps we need Notable for one place along with the current Notable for one event. Note: If the answer doesn't make sense, make certain you're asking the right question. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 12:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, prior to two days ago, I had never heard of Salmon, Idaho or Salmon High School Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the IP. It's a common sense solution. If we don't have enough secondary sources for a rounded article, it merits a peragraph in another article. B——C_{ritical__Talk} 14:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you please ready my essay Misplaced Pages:All high schools can be notable? You just summed up the entire essay in one sentence. I will actually be replacing the in a nutshell part of the essay with your phrase. Thanks, Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

There is one point where you and I may disagree. I believe that for most, if not all, high schools, it is possible to create a well-rounded article, similar to what I (and others) have done at Salmon High School and North Gwinnett High School. Articles like this and this are completely inappropriate for Misplaced Pages and should not have their own articles until they can be improved. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool you like my phrase (: No actually I agree that most if not all high schools would merit their own articles if someone were to take the time to source them. Where we might disagree would be that I would put the responsibility for sourcing on the person who writes the article to begin with, and I think it's often (not always) okay to delete text which has been tagged as unsourced for a long time (merely for lack of sourcing). B——C_{ritical__Talk} 16:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I am glad this conversation has come up, and I hope that it will lead to a greater discussion regarding the status of school articles. I for one would like to see something more concrete, one way or the other. I don't know if school articles are among the worst categories of articles with consistency, but I do know that a lot of them are in bad shape.

I can see a lot of viewpoints here, all of which carry some validity, and all of which have issues. I understand the need for a rpofessional looking encyclopedia (we've all invested to various degrees, and want something we can all be proud of). Not that WP should reflect old paper encyclopedias, but old paper encyclopedias had articles of varying length. An article that is only a few sentences long isn't the end of the world, provided that it is referenced properly (which is a whole other problem) and well written. As far as I am aware, while validity is a strong reason for deletion, the overall condition/length of the article is not a valid reason to delete.

Another issue I see is in the whole concept of notability. An easy solution is to fall back on WP:N; if there are enough reliable secondary sources, it stays, if not, it doesn't. That could lead to mass deletions, which in and of itself I don't have a huge problem with. The problem is that I think we all know that in many, many of those cases, there are going to be issues with a lot of articles being recreated without sources, a lot of fighting over same, and some of those articles being recreated with enough sourcing to stay, with those editors screaming "Told you so!" Of course, this is hypothetical, and I'm not sure this constitutes anything but a weak excuse to keep articles.

The other issue I see with WP:N is that (and I beg apologies for beign American-centric) here ... if this is the sole threshold, I fear for a situation where there is an explosion of articles on elementary schools that undoubtedly can be reliably supported by referencing (I would think that a vast majority of current American elementary and iddle schools, with a good hunt through newspapers, could find more than enough sources to meet the notability threshold). While there are some lower schools that should be included here, I think they are at bset a minority. The idea of "high schools are all notable (and, unsaid, other schools are not)", has helped create a lot of substandard articles, but has also, I suspect, been helpful in deleting and keeping out a lot more similarly bad elementary/middle school articles. I don't think that is a reason to establish "all high schools are notable" as official policy. However, I think this has to be looked at more critically.

As far as condition of articles, while I appluad WP for not creating too many hard and fast editing rules, which allows editors to work on the fly, I think given that school articles are buglights for people who are trying to pound their chests, I would like to see the Schools Project work on developing more concrete ideas about what does belong in a good encyclopedia article, and what does not. I think it becomes easier to cleanout articles and talk to zealous editors when you have some written guidelines to back you up. Removing the lyrics to school songs is easy ... it is specifically listed in the article guidelines as something not to include. When editors fight me on it, I direct them there, and that usually ends the fight. Trying to explain why an exhaustive list of every single activity in the school can't be listed is more difficult, because it isn't specifically verboten ... even WP:NOTDIRECTORY can usualyl be countered by WP:BOLD, which draws the whole thing out.

I don't think there yet exists an easy fix on this ... but I am convinced that the community can reach consensus on this given enough tim to talk it over. LonelyBeacon (talk) 02:44, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your informative comment on the subject. It certainly gives me some more ideas on the topic. I'm going to make some changes in the essay I'm writing to address the topic of elementary/middle schools. I think the activities issue is a hard one. It is important for an article on a school to address the idea of activities, just as an article on a university addresses student groups and sports; however, for some large schools the list can become much too long. One solution is enforcing the fact that it should be in prose form. Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

A beer for you!

Nice to finally know who is the head honcho of this massive site. Cheers and bottoms up Andy_Howard (talk) 22:35, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

That is an exquisite looking beer. You must enlarge the pic for full effect. For a fuller effect, if you are so lucky, enjoy one. My76Strat (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Opinion about an image (partially restored)

The following was posted by user Placelimit111 in revision Revision as of 23:15, 27 August 2011:

Hello Mr. Wales, i'd like an opinion by you about this image: //] (I just added the slashes). I heard that Misplaced Pages is an educational project, and shouldn't host unnecessary pornography. Is that true? Placelimit111 (talk) 23:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)'

The result was a pornographic-looking image placed on the page. It was promptly removed, presumed to be vandalism. I can not comment on the motives of the poster, but the image is used on the following two pages:

• http://cs.wikipedia.org/Stydká_štěrbina
• http://de.wikipedia.org/Schamhaarentfernung

The latter of which, is a thoroughly edited page. I am therefore restoring the question, in case anyone (or Jimbo) wants to actually answer the question -- which may or may not be a troll. The new contributor's other edits today do not appear to be vandals. I am doing do because the user was blocked by admin HJ Mitchell, so he does not have the chance to ask his question in a less disruptive manner. -- Wxidea (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Why was the user blocked? The picture looks boring to me, so I'm not sure what the question is. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

You left me hanging

So, I started an essay specifically because you helped reshape my beliefs on the notability of high schools. I haven't even received acknowledgement from you that you know the essay has been created. The essay has already become the subject of changes which completely reshape the point that the essay is getting across. Could you please drop by? Maybe an actual guideline could be created. The title is currently Misplaced Pages:All high schools can be notable; however, I am beginning to dislike the title and it seems like others are missing the point of the essay because of the title. Maybe at a minimum you could offer a new title? Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

You were not left hanging, you were left inspired. What you have done with that inspiration is remarkable. My76Strat (talk) 00:22, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, I have been a little wiki-depressed because the entire issue has been focused on changes to Misplaced Pages:Notability (high schools). I like to believe that my essay is a fairly accurate description of how things should be treated, but the only comments I have been getting are changes to the essay which, like I stated, alter the goals. Look at the history. I am having to fight to keep the essay on track. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm sorry I haven't commented on your essay. I'll look at it in the next day or two if I can and comment. As far as I can tell, your views and mine are quite similar.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

It would be helpful to all involved if a) the two essays could be merged given their similarity so there can be no confusion, and b) if the whole topic could be wrapped up and the outcome communicated (e.g. posted on the schools wikiproject) so that we can move ahead with problem articles. --Simple Bob (Talk) 09:00, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Ryan Vesey, you added this section to the Salmon High School article. If that's supposed to be an example of the sort of thing high school articles are to include, I think a thorough discussion about the point of material being notable and well-sourced is in order. I have yet to see anything in that article which wouldn't be better placed in the town's article, including that supposed 'big controversy and lawsuit' about their mascot. Why this determination for every high school to have its own article? You still haven't answered the question as to why that should be a goal in the first place. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 12:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't recall being asked that question, if you did earlier, I apologize. I take the standpoint that if an article on a high school has substantial content, it is useful and should be included. I don't support creating articles on high schools on a massive scale. Someone should not be creating articles on every high school they know about which state

Jackson High School is a public school in Jackson, Ohio. It is the only high school in the Jackson City School District. Their mascot is the Ironman and their school colors are red and white. The Jackson Ironmen are part of the Southeastern Ohio Athletic League. Jackson High School has a variety of sports programs including baseball, cross country, football, golf, soccer, softball, tennis, track and field, and volleyball.

In this specific example, the infobox improves the page somewhat, but much more content would be desirable. Ryan Vesey Review me! 12:59, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

interpretation of policy

Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#WP:RFC question -

Hi Jimmy, this RFC has just been opened and as it develops over the next few days you may be interested to follow or comment. This is a repeat discussion, but in this case has arisen around the reporting of the claimed sexuality of new CEO of Apple Tim Cook - so this RFC is an attempt to assess the communities general position and interpretation of primarily WP:BLP in regards to .. - When should an encyclopedic project contain unconfirmed speculative sexual orientation reporting in relation to the living subjects of their articles? - Off2riorob (talk) 03:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Sexual preferences are not negative, but they are private. Unless the subject discloses, we should not speculate. I have removed the dubious content. Jehochman 04:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

We should not speculate. But when there has been reporting should we omit it? Is there a special censorship on sexual orientation different from other personal issues?   Will Beback  talk  04:30, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Personal issues including religion, sexual orientation, health status, and similar matters should not be speculated upon. The subject will disclose what they want. The rest should be left out to respect their right to privacy and to avoid repeating rumor or innuendo. What sort of reliable reporting has there been? Rumor, bloggers repeating rumors and articles about rumor campaigns are not reliable information. Jehochman 05:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The issue here is that the subject was placed at the top of a list of the 50 most powerful gay or lesbian people. That fact isn't rumor or speculation, and has been widely reported. We can report that without identifying the subject as gay or lesbian. Just like we can report that the subject is listed among the top 50 cancer survivors, without otherwise identifying them in the Misplaced Pages voice as a cancer survivor.   Will Beback  talk  05:37, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

In a closely related issue, notice how much space is spent discussing speculation about the health of Steve Jobs#Health. Should we gut that section and limit it to Jobs' own self declarations?   Will Beback  talk  05:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

His health has direct relevance on the success of Apple, and has been widely reported on by reliable sources. We should not speculate at all, but if there is reporting based upon reliable public statements, that is relevant information. I haven't looked at that section so I don't know whether it is appropriate or not. Jehochman 05:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, it's a poor analogy because Apple/Jobs have written and spoken about the health issue. That's not the case with Cook. AV3000 (talk) 05:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

So if a person has mentioned they have a health problem, and are the CEO of a large corporation, then it's OK to report speculation about the person's health, but if they are not a CEO then it would not be allowed? That doesn't seem consistent.   Will Beback  talk  06:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Nobody said that. I am going to stop responding now because you seem to want to twist other people's statements to suit your agenda, rather than engage in meaningful dialog. Jehochman 06:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

We're trying to set policy where any language can be twisted, so it's necessary to look at any suggestion based on all possible impacts.   Will Beback  talk  06:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Note that in another active BLPN thread, some editors seem to even want to remove Anderson Cooper's own comments about his sexuality.   Will Beback  talk  06:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Eh? As his article states, Cooper has made no comment whatsoever about his sexuality; he has declined to discuss the matter. AV3000 (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

There's a lengthy quote from him discussing why he won't disclose his sexuality.   Will Beback  talk  06:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Precisely the point: it's a statement that he won't comment about his sexuality, not a comment about his sexuality. (The reader has learned absolutely nothing about his sexuality from him.) AV3000 (talk) 06:59, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

E.g.: "John Doe has refused to discuss his alleged 'Gnarphist' personal beliefs." Is a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" issue. Where a person has specifically declined comment on a personal issue, and there is no fact-based reliable source on the issue, it is, in my opinion, quite improper to ascribe the personal issue to the person. Will and I differ substantially on this. Collect (talk) 11:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment The problem isn't so much how this one small facet of Tim Cook's biography is treated, but that the article treats his business career, which one presumes most readers are interested in learning about and why they came to his Misplaced Pages article, as trivial. AV3000 even refused to include the usual links to Forbes, the NYT and WSJ. What's next - a fully-sourced section focused on his sartorial tastes? His dog? His house? His hobbies? How about 'controversies and scandals', as so many Misplaced Pages articles about politicians focus on (that and their election campaigns and whether they won 'handily' or not), as opposed to what they actually do in their purported jobs? iow, why is Misplaced Pages so determined to focus on anything and everything but what people are actually notable for? It's way beyond Undue Weight, and I really don't understand the lack of concern about the evolution into Triviapedia. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 12:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Raphanin

One of those "how was this missing" type of articles. Can anybody scientific here help expand it with the chemical formula and scientific properties?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Removing wikibabble for non-truth phrase in WP:V

28-Aug-2011: You might not have the time (or bandwidth) to re-consider this issue now, so this is just a long-term reminder. I have noticed some policy phrases are generating endless "wikibabble" discussions (similar to "psychobabble"). As you know, the phrase in WP:V for "verifiability, not truth" has generated years of debate. Those exact words have been traced to 8 December 2004 as a header, in the bottom of SV's edit here. In the past ~7 years, people have noted many cases of weaseling which some have tried by quoting "not truth" as a reason to insert known false information. There is just no reason a policy needs to even hint at "not truth" to foment debate. Also, there are still people who actually think sources should be accepted "whether or not they are true" (aka sensationalist wording in tabloids?) defending "not truth" while (fortunately), several others have warned that there are typos or mistakes in good sources, and WP needs to correct those mistakes to reflect the true information (the intended text). Common example: typos in hurricane-advisory wind speeds. Bottomline, I think WP policies can be reworded to avoid shocking, controversial phrases such as "verifiability, not truth". As one editor noted: "policy statements don't want to be "rhetorically shocking" - they want to be clear". We just need to reword policies in a clear manner, such as:

• "Text must be verifiable, to check whether it truly reflects what reliable sources state, and use current sources about retracted or updated information."

There is little harm in mentioning the words "truly reflects" in the middle of a longer phrase, but any short phrase of the nature "not truth" is bound to generate unhelpful debates, mislead quick readers, or be used as a magic phrase to justify inclusion of false information (the policy explicitly says "not truth"). Avoid other nebulous phrases, as the following would just generate more debates:

• Misplaced Pages seeks accurate text, not accuracy.
• Misplaced Pages articles should be pleasant, not pleasing.

Adding tricky phrases is just not helpful. If policies are changed to remove short misleading, nebulous phrases, and clearly state 3 or 4 down-to-earth situations, then there will be less wikibabble to warp or debate in numerous discussions. Examples of people twisting the phrase "not truth" (to insist on false information) can be found in archive discussions:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/First sentence/V FS Archive 44
• Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/First sentence/V FS Archive 50

To see the current debates, return to page:

• Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/First_sentence - recent, ongoing debates

Anyway, the key issue is that nebulous wording has led to complex debates about policies. This is just another of things to ponder in simplifying Misplaced Pages efforts. -Wikid77 17:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I've made some minor changes that hopefully will clear up exactly what is meant by the phrase for the dull or stubborn folks out there in the Wiki-verse.

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not Truth—whether readers and editors can independently or collaboratively check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether individual editors have a personal and subjective belief it is True.

How's that? -- Avanu (talk) 18:03, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the expression is bad, and I have never particularly liked it. I would be happy to see it vanish entirely because it gives people the wrong idea. In particular, I'd like the core idea to be expressed but the expression itself removed. I would recommend something like this: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, i.e. whether readers and editors can independently or collaboratively check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether individual editors have a personal and subjective belief it is true."

There are many places where this matters, and getting rid of that expression gets rid of a silly mantra that confuses many debates.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
	For founding a genial project of 💕, that anyone can edit! Alex 18:29, 28 August 2011 (UTC)