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Revision as of 06:47, 2 July 2004

Both computer games and video games are listed here, following the lead set by list of computer and video games. -Sean Curtin 02:58, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Catagorizing

I think we need to standardize how we catagorize games. I vote it should be:

1. Company, genres, themes (if applicable)
2. Series

Where Series is simply a grouping of similar games (Like Category:Final Fantasy) which can be catagorized in the same way as 1. If it's categorized by series, it wouldn't need any other category, obviously.

I also say we should get rid of the categories Arcade games and Console games. About 90% of games ever made were on a console, or at least ported to one. Oberiko 10:13, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

More like 50%. Anyways, one of the main reasons for instituting categories was to eliminate the need for massive lists like the ones sorted by platform at list of computer and video games. -Sean Curtin 20:59, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but we can already sort games by genre and company, things that are much more narrow. How about a comprimise? We can keep Arcade, but instead of Console, we put the specific systems that the game was for (NES, Gamecube etc.)? Oberiko 01:51, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I was working on categorys: (computer and video games by):Company, platform, year, genre.

Cover-all

I feel we also need something that covers Computer games, Console games, Video games and Arcade games in one fell swoop. I suggest that we rename this, and all its subcategories, Electronic games. Oberiko 16:57, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Easier to make Console and Arcade games subcategories of this one, and adding Category:PC games or something similar for games played on the personal computer. -Sean Curtin 20:59, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Also, "electronic games" is vague enough that it would be expected to cover unrelated material, such as pinball games and slot machines. -Sean Curtin 21:05, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As I said before on Talk:Timeline of video games, "video games" should be the umbrella term for all of console games, computer games, portables and arcade games. "Video game" is 1) short 2) the most commonly used term, and 99.99% of the games in question for this category use video. Fredrik (talk) 21:27, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If you want to be accurate, they would all be under "computer games" because they all use computer processors. Depending on what definition of "video" you use, text-based games (like interactive fiction and some MUDs) are disqualified as "video games". Either way, this has come up on talk:video game and talk:computer game in the recent past and the consensus seems to be to leave computer/video game articles separate but to put lists (and by association categories) of computer/video game related topics together. -Sean Curtin 22:31, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

True, but "computer games" is very often used to mean "PC games as opposed to console games", even on Misplaced Pages (in fact, PC games redirects there). Anyway, what I said above was mainly in reference to the "timeline of video games" pages, which are essentially about the video game industry (which also produces the non-video computer games), and naming of articles (where "computer and video games" is unwieldy). I'm actually fine with the current naming for categories. Fredrik (talk) 22:44, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

One could argue that "computer game industry" and "video game industry" refer to different things as well, but that's more semantic than I plan on getting. -Sean Curtin 00:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Considering that we already have Console games, perhaps we can change our definition of Video games to be the coverall (even txt-based games are shown on a Video display)? Otherwise console and video are just a synonyms. Oberiko 01:53, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I think we should get rid of console too, and start listing games into categories by specific platform (PC, NES, PS2 etc), and adopt these and Category:Arcade games into a general "games by platform" category. -Sean Curtin 02:32, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think we should keep console, but only as a parent to XBox, Gamecube, SNES etc. Console games wouldn't include any articles for any specific games. Oberiko 02:38, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not sure if this helps but Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Dictionary.com and The American Heritage Dictionary all give support to Video Game applying to any game that's presented on some kind of video screen, covering Arcade, PC and Console. Oberiko 02:38, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Electronic Games would also cover Simon and Talking Battleship. Video, as Oberiko points out, really describes output to a video screen, whether a computer monitor or a television. Considering that, with the XBox, there are very few games that are exclusively computer games anymore, I think the need to distinguish console and computer games is increasingly minor. Probably better to call it all video games than have redirects and split information. Snowspinner 15:06, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

When deciding about ontologies, don't forget that there are audio games that are computer-driven but do not use a video screen, not even for text. I suppose the younger generation never had the experience of consuming long rolls of paper playing adventure on a TTY. I saved one of these, but I think the paper disintegrated later - another little bit of history vanished. Stan 15:56, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think that could be solved by an explanation within Category:Computer games that states it is for more prevelant modern Video games only, and provide a link to Category:Computer audio games.

Either that, or just have Category:Computer video games as a child of both Category:Computer games and Category:Video games. Computer games would then include Category:Computer audio games as well. Oberiko 17:06, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Both seem rather awkward, and there are plenty of purists who will object and then act on the objection by editing everything in sight. "Computer and video games" includes all the right keywords and doesn't need explaining. Stan 02:10, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, there will always be people who will argue that they ought to be listed as X and not Y. Better to be inclusionary than to provide fodder for a potential edit war. -Sean Curtin 02:33, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, due to the amount of cross-over, this category would have to be changed to Category:Computer, video and arcade games so as to include everything (having arcade as a totally seperate category without a similar parent (Games) doesn't make much sense). I feel that unless an explanation can be provided for a flaw with Video games becoming the umbrella and Console games being specific to consoles (which is very convenient and now technically correct), then we should go ahead and do it.

Frankly, I'm curious how many people actually don't consider PC games and arcade games to be video games. Oberiko 10:08, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's simple - arcade games have dedicated hardware (the cabinet at least, and usually internal circuitry), while console and PC games use generic hardware. So arcade versions of games are always software-hardware combinations, and you can't describe them as if they were software alone. However, I do consider "arcade games" to be a subcategory of "computer and video games", so there's no reason to retitle the wider category to mention "arcade". Stan 15:12, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It can't be a subcategory. It's not, by current definition, a computer game or a "Video game", hence the need for the umbrella. Right now, it just seems like a lot of work to incorporate a specific, non-universal POV that's not even technically correct. Oberiko 22:19, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What is the "it" you're referring to? Not clear from context. Stan 16:35, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Vote on video game being an umbrella term (3/2/1)

I think the best way for us to solve this would be by voting on it. I don't know how long votes normally last, so I say we close this one week from now on June 25th.

One week is a little short - two weeks would be better. People often don't notice that a vote is happening, then don't feel bound by it later if they didn't get a chance to weigh in. There's a place to advertise votes too, forget where. Stan 16:33, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If you (or anyone else) learns where we can advertise this (I posted at the Video game discussion), by all means feel free to add it in here. And two weeks sounds reasonable. July 2nd is when we'll close this vote.

I propose that Video games from here on out be known as an umbrella for Arcade games, Console games and Computer games as oppossed to being a synonym for console games.

Someone has listed it at the right place Misplaced Pages:Current_polls Robin Patterson 00:28, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Support

1. Oberiko 12:23, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
2. Fredrik (talk) 17:51, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
3. --Horst_F_JENS 19:28, 2004 Jun 21 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Stan 16:33, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
2. Prefer "electronic games" as the umbrella: as someone said above, that includes pinball, etc, but "video" does not. Robin Patterson 00:23, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
3. Concur with Robin Patterson; would "video" games include text-based games? Finn-Zoltan 21:41, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Sean Curtin 03:54, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Comments

I should clarify that Electronic games would be the umbrella for ALL of them (Pinball, LCD display games, video games, Simon (game) etc.) See the image for what I propse.

Computer non-video are pretty non-mainstream so I'd rather link to it or have it as a sub-category of computer games (but the primary emphasis of the category would be it's video games). Oberiko 01:21, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yeah. This isn't really about the "electronic games" umbrella, but the "computer and video games" sub-umbrella. The only real options seem to be "video games", "computer games" and "computer and video games". Perhaps the poll should be changed to include several options instead of just yes/no for one. Fredrik | talk 01:58, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What do you have in mind? Right now I'm focusing on the Video Games including computer, arcade and console as the change, but from a comment above, I think some people have the impression that I want it to be a super umbrella for everything. Oberiko 10:24, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Games (electronic or otherwise) can be classified into practically an infinite number of categories. Even "games" itself is a relative term that can be defined however one wants (subjectively, objectively, relatively--whateverely).

• Electronic games is such a broad category that can include arcade, computer, console (Playstation et al), handheld (Gameboy et al), pinball, video (another term for arcade and console), etc games.
• Arcade games include pinball games ("pinball machines") since they are usually in arcades (where the term "arcade game" originates).
• Some games appear in arcades, on consoles, on handhelds, AND on computers.
• To confuse the matter, I could consider arcade games, console games, handheld games, etc to be computer games since the devices that run them are, essentially, computers.

I think it's best to just let people classify a game however they want since it all circles around eventually anyway.

-Eep²