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Self identified 13 year old joins WP:WikiProject_Pornography

Hi Jimbo. Long time reader - first time commenter. There is a discussion on WP:ANI about an editor who has self identified on his userpage that he is 13 years old and that he participates in WP:WikiProject_Pornography. Other editors have noticed that he hasn't actually made any contributions yet to the Porn wikiproject. However, there is concern that a 13 year old shouldn't be contributing to an area of Misplaced Pages that is dedicated to porn. Some have presented arguments that because the topic is educational and not sexually explicit that it should be allowed while others have said that although it is educational there is still some sexually explicit content or pictures. Some have said that we wouldn't have known the user is 13 and there are many 13 year olds reading the material so it shouldn't be a problem, while others have said that because we know he is 13 and we know he is interested and focused in the Porn Wikiproject that we are now knowingly contributing sexually explicit content to a minor in violation of US law. What are you takes on the issue? Is this somewhere the foundation should step in and give a legal opinion?--v/r - TP 16:04, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

This isn't just about WikiProject Porn. The true question here is if minors should be disallowed from editing porn-related articles on an educational website? (I think Dr. Blofeld misunderstands the point. Implementing a restriction at the WikiProject won't actually do anything.) Swarm 17:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Anything with Porn and 13 year old next to each other should send alarm bells to anybody. Even if his editing is harmless it could ignite into a nasty media report that wikipedia supports a 13 year old editing pornography articles, and do you realise how many parents would ban wikipedia from their kids if they read that in a newspaper? They would be missing out on learning from thousands of articles because of it which is contrary to our goals. Jimbo very likely would be purely against it for media/legal safety sake even if he thinks the editor's contributions are not involving explicit material as it is a risk we can't afford to take but I will be interested to see what he has to say. Obviously we don't know the age of most of our contributors but should somebody disclose they are 13 then in my view they should be prohibited from editing pornography articles or taking part in that wikiproject but are fully welcome to edit anything else. Perhaps this is time to impose an age minimum for that project as its rocky ground.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Although Misplaced Pages is not censored I do agree that it is reasonable at the least to put a banner at the top of that project page with some sort of disclaimer that editors should be over X years old to edit. The tricky thing here is, depending on where they are that age differs. Some states are less than others and some countries don't care at all. --Kumioko (talk) 18:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Would an 18+ restriction to WikiProject Porn be enough, or would we have to accept it as a general rule covering all porn articles? Or should we handle it on a case by case basis for individual minors? Swarm 18:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I believe we should keep in mind that there are at least two separate issues here. The first is what our policies should be, and we have a right to set those policies. The second is whether we are doing anything "illegal", either by policy or the absence of policy, and that is a broader question as it involves not just editing articles about porn but opens up a legal can of worms on age limits and Misplaced Pages more generally.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:18, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There's another related issue unmentioned above. If we merely slap a tag or warning on such pages, there's every reason to suspect that a 13 year-old user won't want to so self-identify. BusterD (talk) 18:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Well I don't beleive we are doing anything "illegal" because even in the porn project there is very little explicit content. Lots of movie titles and Biographies but not much media. I do think that the public image could be a factor though and could be presented in a negative light by the media. I think if we start by adding a disclaimer to the project and to the Projects template that is posted on the articles thats a good start. We "could" also create a page disclaimer that could be presented at the top of some articles (like the ones in the porn project) so that it would notify anyone looking at the article that there is content that might be offensive or unsuitable. Maybe something like the Maintenance banner but maybe in a different color. Now I'm not talking censoring anything, just a message notifying the reader of their obligation to look away. --Kumioko (talk) 18:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Which brings up the thorny issue of enforcement.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I believe the essential issue is priority. Is it more important for us to protect 13 year-old eyes from editing and/or viewing content, or is it more important a user feels free to self-identify and/or act on self-interest? IMHO, a youngster might not consider the consequences of any self-identification. Another issue to be ranked would include public perception of how we address such priorities through policy and common practice, as described above. This isn't about this issue at all, but about our responsiveness. BusterD (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Buster, I agree with you and Kumioko that public perception is an issue, but even that will be difficult to resolve. At the same time, the legal issues are complex, and because it has been raised publicly here and at ANI, I think Wikimedia lawyers should at least be alerted to it.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• On Wikipdia (or elsewhere) 13-year-olds should not be permitted to edit anything connected with porn. For their own good and the good of the project. Children are children and adults are adults, and while most 13/14-year-old boys disagree, especially about porn: adults are bigger, older and know what's best - so tough - little 13-year old will have to get his kicks playing outside in the fresh air. Giacomo Returned 18:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I can't disagree with your position, but none of the issues discussed above provide a method of addressing your proper concern... BusterD (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Well frankly I am more worried about WP's reputation than protecting the 13 year old eyes of an editor who clearly has access to the internet anyway. A controversial statement perhaps I admit. As I stated above I think leaving a warning banner will help for a start. Then if we know that an underage editor is contributing to areas that they ought not too then we should stop that as best we can. If we don't know then there's not too much we can do which also enforces the problem Buster mentions of driving the editor deeper underground. We could also require underage users to self identify as being under 18 and if they don't they could be blocked. With that said we have a lot of under 18 year old editors and I would hate to drive them away, some are in college and participating in the Unversities and other projects. --Kumioko (talk) 18:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

We have the option of community topic bans, so I am raising an RfC at WP:VPP to try to gauge community views on this. --Cerejota  19:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

"We could also require underage users to self identify as being under 18 and if they don't they could be blocked." This is impractical, or at least meaningless, since the only way to learn that an editor is under 18 is if they self identify as such. Therefore it would usually be impossible for administrators to discover that an editor had failed to self identify as under 18. In addition, since we generally advise minors not to disclose their age anyway, it's not clear why this would be a good idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:28, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I agree, but having it doesn't hurt either. It establishes that the community addresses this issue seriously. We already have nearly unenforceable policy, like WP:NOPAY, that exists as a principle. Even WP:NPOV is hard to "enforce" but its existence allows editors to at least direct discussion rather than "ramble on" on a topic. The enforceability of a principle is secondary, in my view, to the principle itself. --Cerejota  19:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The word "minor", as a legal term, is defined differently in different jurisdictions and in different statutes. Thus, it is not safe to say that the magical age is 18.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Florida law applies to all Wikimedia hosted projects as per ToS - so this issue is moot.--Cerejota  19:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm astonished at the legal opinions expressed at Misplaced Pages. I wasn't aware that choice of law or forum clauses had any impact on criminal laws. And to the extent we're talking about civil suits, are you familiar with all the laws in Florida?--Bbb23 (talk) 19:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I am saying, that the question of what "adult age" is in wikipedia is moot and not subject to consensus because Office already said: adults in wikipedia are those under Florida law. I am stating a fact, not giving an opinion.--Cerejota  20:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

You said the issue I raised was moot because of the ToS. Whatever the ToS says is fact, although an interpretation of what it means would be opinion. Your conclusion that the issue is moot is an opinion. I never said anything about consensus, which, in my view, has nothing to do with the legal issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, actually. My apologies. The only meta-policy that the Foundation has that addresses age is m:CheckUser policy, which says that "place of residence" is the criteria. THat does still makes the question moot, as "place of residence" makes the editor responsible for proving this. --Cerejota  21:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I like the apology part (smile), but I honestly don't understand any of the rest. I don't understand what the CheckUser policy has to with what I originally said, and I'm not sure what question you now think is still moot. In any event, you don't have to respond to this if you don't wish to as I think it's become too much of a detour anyway.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

This is the latest in a series of WikiProject-associated controversies - others being whether you can put a WikiProject LGBT tag on the talk page of an article about a BLP who isn't widely known as such, and the disclaimer I added during the seal controversy (which, though moved, persists to this day, and yes, I know that it violates WP:NODISCLAIMERS) that WikiProject FBI is "open to all editors and is not approved, endorsed, nor authorized by the FBI in any way". I think that the recurrent problem we have here is that people confuse WikiProjects, which are about improving articles in some way related to various topics, as somehow representing or advocating these viewpoints. It may be time to think up a good line to add to the general disclaimer. IANAL, but I propose something like: "Misplaced Pages users may voluntarily band together to form WikiProjects to improve our coverage of some topics. The association of a user or an article with a WikiProject does not indicate any link with or opinion regarding the topic of the WikiProject, nor any endorsement or authorization by or association with any outside organization. WikiProject tags and user participation are merely internal notes to facilitate the upgrading of our encyclopedic coverage." Wnt (talk) 21:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Break

Obvious solution

Ban pornography and pornography related entries from Misplaced Pages. Case closed. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Obvious problem

Define pornography. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Obvious answer

...

I don't actually know that banning pornography is the ideal solution, but I think one of the main roadblocks that we have as a community when faced with problems like this is our lack of willingness to consider more totalistic solutions to problems. Why not consider leaving really messy topic areas that are subject to all kinds of legal restrictions and social morays to the rest of the internet? Honestly, as an encyclopedia, we really don't have to explain every piece of porn lingo, nor do we have to include a bio on every two bit porn actor. Conversely do we have to get rid of them? Maybe not, but let's consider the possibility of doing so, and thereby not dealing with this can of worms, and the inevitable future cans of worms that covering pornography topics will give to us.Griswaldo (talk) 03:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

When you say "ban pornography", the censor alarms go off. But I don't see a problem with defining pornography as a thing that Misplaced Pages is not! Lots of problems would solve, it's not immoral to define what we are not, and it is an educational ruse to impart any social value for its inclusion. My76Strat (talk) 04:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I agree, and this policy would also allow us to get rid of other controversial and messy things; we can delete all the images of Mohammed, oh and finally put an end to the endless fighting over the Israeli–Palestinian conflict related articles by just deleting the entire topic area. Either Misplaced Pages is uncensored, (to the extent permitted by law) or it isn't. Monty₈₄₅ 04:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

It is naive to think that we do not already limit our content in several ways. Misplaced Pages is not absolutely "not censored," even if you add the caveat about not being censored within the limits of the law. And by "the law" do you mean "the laws applicable at the location of the servers" or some other laws, since, as you know laws vary between different localities, and different nations. But back to the point. We limit content all the time. For instance we have zero tolerance for content that is under copyright that we do not have permission to reproduce. We also do not allow certain types of material in our biographies of living people and as My76Strat points out, there is a whole slew of things we don't allow per WP:NOT. So it is naive to say that "censorship" is a black and white proposition. Whenever we choose to limit what type of content we have at Misplaced Pages I would hope we do so with practical rather than ideological aims in mind. Pornography is not as clear cut, either socially or legally, as something like copyright, yet it is still a much thornier social and legal issue in the English speaking world (this is en-wiki after all) than the I-P conflict or depictions of Mohammad. For one, the encyclopedia needs to keep its reputation in mind and a 13 year old WikiProject Pornography member is a possible minefield in that sense. I guarantee you that if such an issue were blown up in the media, and the community's response was WP:NOTCENSORED we'd be doing greater damage to our reputation than we ever have in the past. But the issue is bigger than simply reputation, I just use that as one example of a practical concern, as opposed to a naively ideological one. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, if we were to raise the bar of notability for porn-related topics, and perhaps include a "must be notable for other things as well" guideline, we would be significantly reducing the porn content to something that 13-year-olds may already have read about elsewhere, and which would be largely "innocent". As in: it won't be titillating for those 13-year-olds who may be here for the sordid info that adults will otherwise feel entitled to share with the world as "encyclopedic" content.

Not to mention that it would cut down most of the remaining chaff.

Then again, I think 13-year-olds can get similar kicks from the articles not (yet) tagged for WP:PORN, but which describe in detail, and depict, all sort of sexual pastimes. Focusing on WP:PORN's added risk for minors may be hypocritical, as long as some articles tell us how to properly enjoy a good lick on the scrotum. Dahn (talk) 12:08, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment. WTF? I honestly threw up when I saw this thread. I am not being uncivil; no, I am genuinely disgusted with this. First, Misplaced Pages has hardly any porn content, and if it is, it's poor. Second, age-verification is completely useless, (as well all know, just set high-age) and finally, Google is your friend with porn. LOL No offense, but I think Misplaced Pages actually needs real graphic images. It is encyclopedic. Oh, my never mind, I talking about stuff that will never get accepted due to those top-you-know-what admins. --Hinata talk 04:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC) Comment. I would think it a strong possibility that the '13-year-old' is a setup by someone interested in seeing what Misplaced Pages's reaction is, possibly for some news media. Quite a few NOW journalists are at loose ends, although the Fake Sheik now works for The Times, I believe.... 99.50.188.136 (talk) 16:18, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

A perfectly valid concern. My original point about priorities was written with this in the back of my mind. BusterD (talk) 02:55, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

RfC

Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Should_underage_editors_be_topic_banned_from_articles_in_the_WikiProject_Pornography_topic_area.3F--Cerejota  19:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The RfC is heading for no-consensus. Jimbo, this may be another time when you need to do the royal thing and just declare it by fiat as an amendment to WP:Child protection. Tolerating people who have disclosed their age as 13 as active editors in the realm of pornography is something the press will have a field day with. Gigs (talk) 22:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

He may not have to. We could simply add to the policy this .--v/r - TP 23:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Or we could simply recognise that we are not aware of any editor who has disclosed their age as 13 and is an "active editor in the realm of pornography". The editor this thread was about isn't, and never has been. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:26, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. I don't think the RfC is headed for "no consensus". --FormerIP (talk) 23:44, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I thought User:Beeblebrox nailed it: "...propose new policy page Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not your parent or legal guardian. BusterD (talk) 02:55, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

As I have posted at the RfC, Misplaced Pages's (lack of) responsibility to protect users from themselves is not the only issue here. Disruption to Misplaced Pages must also be taken into consideration. Personally, I think someone saying "I am 13 and I am here to edit articles about pornography" is inherently disruptive. Whether that is exactly what happened in this case or not, I am not sure, but that seems to be the version of the story that people seem to be basing new proposed rules on. I also believe that the current rules (or policies, practices, whatever they are) which allow admins to block disruptive users are sufficient. Neutron (talk) 14:09, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the current rules are sufficient. At the moment there seems to be a majority of editors who are defending the 'right' of a 13-year-old to put his age on his user page and collaborate with pseudonymous adults on pornographic topics. If that isn't scary, then I don't know what is. Hans Adler 10:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you 100%. I think discussions like this display our internal biases rather clearly, especially along demographic lines. While it doesn't take being a parent to agree with your point Hans, I think the fact that we have such little agreement with it is indicative of who most of our editors are. They are not parents, and they are not capable of thinking like parents, or apparently understanding how disturbing this all is to anyone who does have a child. In situations like this, if we stick with internal consensus, we seriously risk a PR disaster because our internal consensus does not account for the very real fears of parents out there in the outside world.Griswaldo (talk) 12:07, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The only bias I see is from someone who believes that people who don't agree with you, can't possibly be parents. Perhaps people disagree with you for a number of reasons, e.g. they feel that it is hypocritical to let everyone read whatever they want, but not allow them to edit some things based on their age; or because they think that the user in question is either a troll who is now laughing his ass of because of all the dramah he created, or else really a thirteen year old who has now basically been told (apparently by "parents or people thinking like parents") that if they are honest, they will get punished, but if they lie about their age, nothing will and can happen to them. Perhaps we can just leave policies like they are and judge people on their actual edits instead. 12:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

So Griswaldo, if I were to reveal that I am a) a parent and b) in opposition to trying to ban people from wikiprojects by age, how damaging is that to your position? If you don't want your kids to be uploading nudie pics to some porn starlets info box, then perhaps you should take better care of your children and be aware of what they are doing online. The Misplaced Pages is not a surrogate mother. Tarc (talk) 12:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Why Tarc are you a parent? I'm led to believe you are not because you seem more concerned with the ideological implications of what appears to you to be a hypocritical position than you are with the practical concern of child safety.Griswaldo (talk) 13:54, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Fram, I don't really think it's a punishment not to extend a privilege to a child that he/she would not have outside of Misplaced Pages. Pray tell me, where else in the world do people welcome 13 year old children to engage in the activity of writing about pornography? And by the way children are "punished" for being honest all the time if that's how you want to put it. In fact adults even are. A 20 year old in the United States who doesn't lie about their age is punished by not being allowed into a bar. A 15 year old who doesn't lie about his age is "punished" by not being granted a driver's license (in my state, I know this varies). A short child refuses to stand on his tip toes at the amusement park and thus he is "punished" by being denied entrance to the roller coaster. An adult is "punished" when he is honest about finding a $100 bill on the ground and returns it to the person who dropped it. By your twisted logic there are all kinds of things that children and adults can lie about and get "rewarded." I'm not tempted in the least to actualize your logic in real life. My kids can handle those kinds of sacrifices for the sake of honesty. Cheers mate.Griswaldo (talk) 13:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

And in terms of this particular discussion the point is not that we'd like to encourage children to edit pornography at all. I'm simply saying that if they are going to edit porn related content and join porn related WikiProjects, it would be much safer, and in my view much less disastrous PR wise, if they did so anonymously, against our stated desire for them not to.Griswaldo (talk) 13:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

(The first reply wasn't by Tarc, I used the wrong number of tildes and my name wasn't added after my comment: I've done so now). Child safety would be better achieved by forbidding anybody to reveal their age, not by keeping minors away from a project but allowing them to post their age here. Aaprt from that, you are still using some false ideal of parents => child safety (or your definition of it) first vs. non-parents => other, more theoretical concerns. Not only is your division in parents vs. non-parents irrelevant, it is also based on some very shaky premises. Bringing such prejudices into a debate doesn't help in having an open discussion. Fram (talk) 13:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

No the false premise here is that I'm basing an argument somehow on parental status. I was originally making an observation about Misplaced Pages, one that neither you nor Tarc have refuted, even anecdotally. It is my opinion, that non-parents are not going to be as concerned with child safety. Do you really think this assumption is wrong? Do I really need to pull out polls or other social data to prove that very basic point? Of course there will be parents who are not as concerned with child safety, non-parents who are, as well as people of all kinds who are concerned with child safety but don't think that this is a child safety problem. I do not, and have not denied this. But, I will maintain that parents are much more likely to be 1) concerned with child safety and 2) considering this a child safety problem. I understand that I present only my opinion here, but you cannot refute it by claiming that the argument is illogical. The foundation of the argument is not based on logic alone, it is based on what I believe the social data would say. The only way to refute the foundation of the argument would be provide data that says otherwise. And I'm fully aware of the fact that I would need to do the same to prove my argument. Also the larger point here is that if I'm correct, then we ought to be concerned with how the rest of the world would react to learning about this. My concerns are pragmatic through and through. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

(repeated ec, this reply is based on the first version of your post here) :::::::::::::For the vast, vast majority of editors, there is no indication whether they are parents or not. Yet you are placing those with similar POV as yours into "parents" and the others in "not parents". I could just as easily claim that this is a problem of Americans vs. Europeans, or females vs. males, or ... You said "most of our editors are not parents, and they are not capable of thinking like parents, or apparently understanding how disturbing this all is to anyone who does have a child". Not "how disturbing this is for some people" or even "for some parents", but "to anyone who does have a child". So yes, you were basing an argument on parental status. I'm glad that you now realise that that was not the correct position to start from. Fram (talk) 14:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

OK I see your point. I was basing the argument that less people on Misplaced Pages see the child safety issue in this on that premise. Fair enough, but I still believe that (although perhaps there are even more important factors like age itself, though since I have only assumptions about demographics I will not go there any further).Griswaldo (talk) 14:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

As for the later additions to your post: I can refute facts, I can't refute opinions based on suppositions. But I don't see why there would be a PR nightmare because we not only let children read articles on pornography-related subjects, but also edit them. Why is it so much worse if adolescents edit those articles instead of only reading them? At least in editing mode, you don't get any pictures ;-) Fram (talk) 14:15, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Because its not about exposure to images in the first place. Children who want to see porn will see it somewhere else, and much more explicit porn than anything they find there. It is about exposure to people, and especially in the context of also exposing one's age. I can see that we do not agree about several things, but I do actually agree with you that banning all posting of age information would be a huge improvement. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:23, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Banning all posting of age information would not be practical, but banning userboxes that indicate an age below 18 is practical and should be done. And yes, it's not just about exposure to the stuff that you can find on some Misplaced Pages pages. It's about building what would amount to a dating site for pedophiles, and to a lesser extent it's about the stuff you can't find on some Misplaced Pages pages because the members of WikiProject Pornography clean it up very quickly. The first concern is obviously much more serious, and could be prevented if self-identified children are prevented from systematically editing in that area. The second concern is less serious, and for that it's enough to tell children who would like to edit in the area that we disapprove of it so they have to do it secretly if they really insist. Then they will know that they are on their own and may have unpleasant experiences. But at least they will be physically save when their age is not obvious. Hans Adler 15:17, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

These last posts seem to reflect a very different concern to what the RfC was about. That was specifically over the question of whether there should be an age restriction for editing certain articles. If that's no longer a live question, then I'm glad. The very different issue of whether WP needs or should have safeguards against online grooming might be addressed in a further RfC. --FormerIP (talk) 16:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment Someone claiming to be 13 and interested in pornography will likely be an immediate target of pedophiles. It's likely he would be encouraged to engage in private emails, and then perhaps actual meetings, under the guise of 'working on the project'. We've seen that sort of thing - "grooming" - we read about in the news after an arrest. Of course we have a duty to try to protect children. Everyone does, as human beings. There's a limit to what we can do, but that doesn't mean we don't care and we don't try. As for the project, it's not the article's scope that's at issue, it's how some kid is going to go about doing research for it. His googling is going to turn up a whole lot of sites which are beyond the scope of the article. I wouldn't want Misplaced Pages to go on record as refusing to connect the dots here, and claiming a total lack on interest along with blaming the parents. When you see a train wreck approaching, you do what you can to mitigate the damage - you don't shrug your shoulders and walk away whistling. I hope this 'kid' turns out to be an FBI man, working in an official capacity as they do on children's chat rooms. I fear it may be just as likely he's a sockpuppet of a pedophile, eager to try to get Misplaced Pages to 'welcome', 'encourage', or at least not block, children from editing these articles. I hope Jimmy has contacted the FBI for help and suggestions as to what Misplaced Pages might do to help keep kids safe. It's not as if Misplaced Pages is the only website which has ever faced this issue. 75.59.229.4 (talk) 14:53, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Much, much more likely is that any self-declaring 13 year old joining WikiProject Pornography is a troll, intent on wasting all our times with discussions like this one. --Conti|✉ 15:49, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing, but playing the odds regardless of the downside risk is a recipe for disaster. This isn't just about one particular contributor. 75.59.229.4 (talk) 16:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I fear it may be just as likely he's a sockpuppet of a pedophile, eager to try to get Misplaced Pages to 'welcome', 'encourage', or at least not block, children from editing these articles.

I fear this just may be the most paranoid sentence in this whole debate.AerobicFox (talk) 03:42, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I am neither paranoid nor naive. I suggest you give the FBI a call and chat about some of their previous internet cases. It's happened before, even if somewhere other than your land of kittens, daisies and rainbows. That's why we need to take anything involving kids seriously, and ask for ideas and help from the professionals. In this case, the FBI. I really don't understand this stubborn determination that all Misplaced Pages decisions must and should be made in a Misplaced Pages vacuum. 75.59.229.4 (talk) 21:23, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

The FBI won't act on an incident this trivial. If you don't believe me, you're welcome to contact them yourself and find out. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:48, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry you totally misunderstand what I wrote. 75.59.229.4 (talk) 03:02, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

All Must Share The Burden

Well now look what you've done. You've attracted Herostratus and all the blathering drivel that comes with that.

Thinking about this, and similar discussions down the years, I think one consistent thread is that people don't want strict rules about this stuff. It brings to mind the kerfluffle at Misplaced Pages:Protecting children's privacy some time back. There was a policy proposed to the effect that children couldn't post identifying info, and this was rejected.

But. If someone posts on their user page "I'm 12, and here's my address and phone number", then someone will likely say "This is not a good idea, would you do the kindness of removing that", the user's response will be somewhere along the continuum from "OK" to "Fuck you, I'll do as I please here", and the situation will play out depending on that. And the material will eventually be removed, either because the user is led to cooperate or because the user is blocked as an uncooperative person. And everyone understands this and very few people really mind. What people object to is a rule specifically forbidding this.

So at Misplaced Pages:Protecting children's privacy, it says "his essay is not a policy or guideline...". In effect it's saying "There is no rule against XYZ, but if you do XYZ you will be blocked, as a practical matter". It's a distinction without much difference, but people like it that way, so meh. (And in the situation under discussion, this is exactly how it played out, and problem solved.)

Another thread running through these discussions is along the lines of "It's not my place to worry about harm coming to Misplaced Pages. That's the Foundation's job."

It's quite understandable. Writing articles (in cooperation with other editors) is fun. Governing the site (in cooperation with other editors) is annoying gruntwork. It's hard, and it requires thinking about things that people don't usually have to think about, don't want to think about, and aren't equipped to think about. It's above their pay grade.

And in real life we recognize this. I don't test my drinking water because that's the Water Department's job. If there's a problem, they'll tell me, or just fix it. And so forth.

I think this is essentially correct. Having the encyclopedia written by a community of volunteer editors is fine and has worked very well. Having the site governed by a community of volunteer editors is inefficient and breaks down at the margins. However, that's what we have. So therefore it becomes incumbent upon editors to worry about whether their actions will harm the project. But a lot of people won't do that. They just won't. Some will make a half-hearted attempt at denying the possibility of harm to the project and some won't even do that.

It's a problem. Not sure what the answer is to that.

Regarding the above and also the question of harm to members of the human community outside of Misplaced Pages: denying moral responsibility for one's actions is, of course, extremely functional in many situations to the individual. Since it's functional we can expect people to do it. And we do see people do it, in real life, all the time. This is why we fall back on laws -- anti-pollution laws, anti-child-endangerment laws, anti-fraud laws, anti-tax-evasion laws, yadda yadda. In real life we don't assume that people will accept moral responsibility for their actions, so the community says "we don't care if you think it's OK, if you do it you'll go to jail".

We don't have that option here, and so this is a problem. We can try this new way of governing an encyclopedia-writing project, but we can't repeal human nature. I'm not sure that this was thought thru when our governance systems were being set up. Herostratus (talk) 16:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Here are some thoughts. Misplaced Pages already explains that some of its content is not meant to be consumed by people who are underage. We can do a better job with posting our disclaimers, but the disclaimer is there. It's not like we foist pornography unsuspectingly on the public, either. That being said, where are the kid's parents? Imagine the more risque parts of Misplaced Pages to be like an adult magazine. No parent is going to buy his or her kid one, but the kid is probably going to get into it somehow. Why isn't the parent supervising this child's use of Misplaced Pages? hare j 02:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Because not everybody has the time to do so? Because some single parents must work to pay for their and their children's rent and food, and there is simply not enough money left for luxuries such as a car or a babysitter? Because some competent parents with enough time and money who want to help their children to grow up into intelligent, autonomous, responsible adults do not follow today's transient fashion of overprotecting children? Such parents will let their children play alone in the woods where reasonable, and will let them use the internet alone where reasonable.

Besides, it's a relatively unique feature of American society that community sense has been so systematically destroyed and vilified as 'socialism' that a lot of Americans are now comfortable with the thought that very bad things happen to their neighbours' children because their parents made a mistake, and are even comfortable with saying so in public so long as none of the victims has a name. The English Misplaced Pages is strongly affected by this, but parents from other regions are unlikely to know this. They are perfectly justified to believe that the English Misplaced Pages is just as safe a place for children as any other large Misplaced Pages.

Here is a possible scenario: An editor of the German Misplaced Pages who grew up in the East and therefore speaks little English recommends her son, who is now 11 and has learned English at school for 5 years, to edit the English Misplaced Pages to get some practice. Her son does what children will do: He tests the limits by intentionally overstepping an unwritten rule, and declares his age and the fact that he wants to focus on pornography articles. Totally surprised that nobody seems to mind, he somewhat uneasily proceeds to do so. At this point the child's safety will largely depend on his (relative) maturity, and it is likely that having been exposed to articles such as many in Category:BDSM terminology, he will at least develop an incorrect impression of what society considers to be normal sexuality and may have problems developing normal relationships in the future.

Short version: The average parent cannot be expected to know or suspect what some of Misplaced Pages's more shady corners contain, and they have no reason to suspect social irresponsibility is rampant in a knowledge-oriented programme run by a charity. Hans Adler 08:26, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Astute observations. The Misplaced Pages community is clearly not a perfect cross section of society, but we would do well to be more cognizant of that fact when we discuss internal issues with social consequences. The ramifications of our decisions do not confine themselves to a vacuum, which means the decisions themselves should not be made in one. Hans, thank you for taking the time to share those comments, I for one am grateful. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:19, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Kids spend hours online each day. You cannot expect parents to stand next to them all day, looking over their shoulders; that would be entirely odious. But you can expect most parents to assume that as adults we would have the good sense not to welcome their thirteen-year-old or preteen children's participation in the pornography project. --JN466 13:36, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

If we allow children to edit we also must assume certain responsibilities for those children. Parents have a difficult times as it is watching for trouble areas as children grow up even when they know where the trouble is let alone when they don't. We as a community cannot for any reason abdicate the role we must assume as the adults on Misplaced Pages. Certainly kids can lie and say they're older and adults can lie and say they are younger than they are. None of that gives us permission not to lay the ground rules for our encyclopedia and our environment. Under age kids drink too, ut that doesn't mean we do away with the drinking laws. I'm a parent. I don't budge on this position.(olive (talk) 13:50, 24 September 2011 (UTC))

The nature of the project as a world wide effort requires considering that not everyone has the same view about what is a minor or what is acceptable content. In the west, young parents are not recognized as adults, regardless of how many children they have. They are still forbidden to marry. (Ironically they are recognized as adults for the purpose of divorce or trial for serious crimes). That view is not universal. Pornography is offensive and illegal for any age and any person in MANY societies. Addressing 'No porn for X age' is as hard as 'No porn for Y country'. In the end measures like "click here if you are over Z years" followed by "click here if you live in those places" just ignore the fact you have to type in "P" "O" "R" "N" in the first place, so it's like wtf are you expecting to find when you get there, hello ? add a little animated guy who asks 10 times 'do you really wanna see it, click here' 'do you really wanna see it, click yes' 'do you really wanna see it, click I'm sure' make sure he's funny. Give him a Carnie accent too. Connecting to the internet is fair warning, the nature of the net is well known, connecting to an encyclopedia means your about to find out, and typing P O R N means you're asking for it. No need to be a tease. A mature, honest even clinical approach keeps everyone out of trouble (it works for doctors everywhere). Penyulap _talk 23:56, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

By "in the west", do you mean "in the Western states of the US"? In Germany, for example, it is simply impossible for an under-14-year-old to be tried at all, and many up to age 21 are tried in the juvenile justice system, depending on the courts' assessment of the defendant's maturity. (General age of majority in Germany is 18.) I can't prove it because I can't find an overview anywhere, but I would also expect that a number of countries in the Western world do grant majority to underage parents and, even more likely, allow them to marry. E.g., it appears that in Mexico pregnant 14-year-olds can marry. (I could find also unreliable sources on this.)

More importantly, I find the complete rejection of social responsibility based on cheap rhetorical tricks (different societies use different age limits, so we should have none at all) absolutely disgusting, and frankly, I have never seen such an attitude expressed by anyone outside the English Misplaced Pages and specifically USian contexts. Hans Adler 08:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Aren't all humans want sex? Seriously, I know I've done that since I was 8...

But aside from that, no one knows your gender online. The only way to do this would be "outing" there information. Kids information is far more important then some porn they will see some day. I find it hard to believe you're worried about this. My faith in humanity is ruined . . . But I wonder if the media see this. It'd be funny lol... And lying on the internet is easy. I'm a boy, for anyone out there. Do not add restrictions, if you do you'll have to ban anonymous editors as well. Disappointed Hinata is disappointed...--Hinata talk 14:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing, Hinata. Anyway, Hans Adler in particular made some good points, and I have pondered this also, but I don't think that the prospect of harm to readers is likely to gain that much traction with a lot of people.

But one would think that the prospect of harm to the project might have some traction. Here is one way to think about this:

The Misplaced Pages (actually the Foundation, but the difference isn't important for this discussion) is a 501(c)(3) charity. Our American 501(c)(3) status is important because, among other things, most organizations aren't allowed (by their own internal rules) to donate to entities that aren't charities, and these donations are important to sustaining the Misplaced Pages. Essentially the United States government says "You are performing a public good, and so we will support you, indirectly, by reducing the taxes of people who contribute to you. In turn, we will tax our waitresses, cab drivers, and farm workers a little bit more, to make up the difference. But because you benefit the public, this is both good public policy and politically sustainable."

However, it's not politically sustainable (nor good public policy, probably) if we do certain things, such as allow 13 year olds to work with porn, and some other things that we do. Getting more 13 year olds to work with porn is not a public policy goal of the United States government.

And since it's not politically sustainable, our sole and only strategy regarding this is: hope we don't get caught. Having "hoping to not get caught" as one's strategy is usually a sign that one has gone down a wrong path.

Plus, it usually doesn't work.

And if it doesn't work, all the people who have worked on on all the articles on locomotives, and the history of science, and the inhabited places in Kenya, and mollusk taxonomy, and all the rest of the things that make the Misplaced Pages so wonderful, they are going to then realize that have been done by very badly, because the Water Company wasn't testing their water after all, but rather allowing a handful of jackanapes to posture over whether testing water is fascism, or something.

It's too bad. Herostratus (talk) 08:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a way to do the same thing with less heat, that is, a graphic content warning. It encompasses all those who have no desire to see things that they cannot un-see, as well as those children who type out P o r n without wanting to do the wrong thing. It would get a lot more support as the process is a choice, rather than a futile challenge thrust upon us. It is however, I predict, still doomed to fail in the foreseeable future. It would simply be a more pleasant appealing proposal to think about for many people. It would create less heat in it's discussion, and cool down the closed proposal on it's next time around. Penyulap _talk 19:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

An aside

When this discussion swung into full force I did a little bit of exploring of pornography topics covered by Misplaced Pages to learn more about what the entries are like both in written and pictorial content. Because of the specific topics we were dealing with my eyes popped a bit when I noticed the first image in use at the main Pornography entry. Now I think it's clearly a coincidence, and was added simply because it was a free image on Commons and a non-free image had just been removed from the entry, but it couldn't be more apropos. Have a look see. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:55, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

That image was chosen and added by an admin, User:Tabercil, who also uploaded it (apparently from an OTRS submission). Just like the user who prompted this discussion, Tabercil likes wrestling and porn (although they are somewhat older so there is no issue there). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:25, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm not sure what to do with that.Griswaldo (talk) 21:59, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

How do other institutions deal with this?

I accidentally stumbled onto this page today, while looking for something else entirely. This important institution (nypl.org) has very similar goals and methods to those of Misplaced Pages, so such a page might serve an informational and instructive purpose here. The situation isn't identical, but surprisingly similar. I think the concern of the original poster was to protect the pedia from bad publicity and poor choice in practice. Creating such a policy or guideline (or even strong essay) would help me to feel better about the threat posed, imaginary or otherwise. I still hold this is about priorities and our responsiveness to threats, not about the issue at hand. BusterD (talk) 15:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages already has policies, guidelines and essays covering much of what's on that page. See Misplaced Pages:Child protection and some of the pages linked from there. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Esacatled All The Way Up

Sorry to disturb you but as title says This Case involing first A UnHelpul AFD Cloousere Then an edit war than admin abuse The Stwerds wont answer the talk pages so i wondering if you can help with this conflict between User:Jcb and me (p.s Maybe you should make it so blocked users can edit your commons user pager wink wink) --Rancalred (talk) 21:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

For your help, this is the AFD, and here is the DRV. So, the article was deleted in AFD, recreated and deleted as G4, DRV endorsed the deletion - this is not a conflict between you and a user, it's a conflict between you and the community :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:47, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Though the block rationale of "vandalism-only account" doesn't really fit, judging by the Commons history this seems to be an agenda-driven Libyan rebel advocate, making lots of map changes and posting gems like this to admins who revert his junk. Tarc (talk) 21:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Laurence Tribe

FYI all who follow this page: Somehow the biography of an eminent legal scholar became a BLP snake pit, but it was quickly resolved when a representative of the professor raised the issue in an RfC. See Really disgraceful. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

And; alas, the type of editing found in many BLPs where the mere use of a word by a "reliable source" then becomes the centerpiece for outright mis- or mal-categorization of the individual. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Among other things, Tribe was placed in the "plagiarist" wiki category for a year, and the article failed to note that he denied the plagiarism allegations. I'm surprised his people didn't notice earlier and didn't raise more of a stink. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

War propaganda?

Dear Mr. Wales, I urge you to have a close look at this article Drone attacks in Pakistan. It is full of misinformation. I know you and many other people here are from the USA but that should not play a role. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.105.34 (talk) 02:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You should start by explaining on the talk page of the article what is false and why you are sure that it is false. If you don't do that, other editors are not likely to pay attention to your complaints. Looie496 (talk) 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I have ask Mr. Wales to have a look at it. I am sure he is smart enough to notice it. Let's see what is he will say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.105.34 (talk) 03:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I glanced at the article, but I don't have time at the moment to read it carefully. Please point out specific problems with the article, as Looie496 suggested. The talk page of the article will be a fine place to do that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Wales i do not think that it is necessary for a person with your experience and it makes me wonder why you did not spot it at the first glance. This article is full of misinformation, weasel words and vague phrasing accompanied with biased sources, unverifiable information and misinterpretation of references that is almost reads like propaganda. This article is a mess. What can you do to fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.105.34 (talk) 04:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I can start by asking you to be more specific. Please point out specific problems with the article. I'm happy to take a deeper look but your help will be appreciated. Can you give me, for starters, one example of something in the article that misrepresents what the source says, and one example of something in the article that is 'unverifiable information'?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

that ip is a waste of time... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.219.48.10 (talk) 10:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

What's up, pal?

misrepresentation and unverified claims. Killed people are presented as "militants" even when it is not sufficient verified and killed people are presented as "militants" based on sources that base their words on anonymous or unnamed "security officials" - often without attribution to the source. Just a mess in comparison with the standard of an encyclopedia. Can you do something about it? 24.232.105.34 (talk) 14:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Wales i do believe that such articles harm the reputation of Misplaced Pages. Is there anything you are willing to do about it? 24.232.105.34 (talk) 02:57, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course. But you're doing a perfectly fine job. I recommend logging in, so you have a stable identity over time, and posting to the talk page. Stick to the kinds of points you are making here, i.e., working to make sure that the article follows the sources carefully, etc.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:53, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Argentina-Brazil rivalry in football...please read what metioned below

Regarding Argentina and Brazil football rivalry what mentioned in wikipedia is incorrect As per rsssf and all respectiful websites ,these two teams met among history in 97 matches till today's date ( 20th sept.2011)...the results are :

Brasil won 38 matches Argentina won 35 matches Draw 24 matches Total 97 matches Brasil scored 150 goals in toatal Argentina scored 150 goals in total

The above informations are the correct ones.Kiindly find below the link needed to confirm. http://www.rsssf.com/tablesb/brasargres.html

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Designce" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Designce (talk • contribs) 10:24, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Awareness

Dear Mr. Wales, what is your take on this situation? My very first article was Triangle Studios, a translation of the Dutch wikipedia article. Triangle Studios is the leading game developer of the Netherlands when it comes to Nintendo DS platform games and the article has been on the Dutch wikipedia for three years without anyone ever complaining. Now I create it here, on the Dutch wikipedia, and it is immediately deleted. The same goes for Cross of the Dutchman (game), an article on a major upcoming game. It is the largest Dutch-based game project ever to take place in gaming history, and two years of research have gone before the official announcement(s). Still, it has been nominated for deletion. For speedy deletion, no less! Only after much comments on my part, it was changed into a regular deletion attempt. I would like to raise some awareness over this issue by sending you this message.

Greetings from a long-time reader and a new but quite discouraged newbie. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 15:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The Triangle Studios article has been proposed for deletion, with a notification that notability has not been stated nor established. There is actually nothing in the article that says anything that you have said above regarding notability, and no external third party reliable sources that help anyone find it. You'll note that the notability requirements on the Dutch and English Misplaced Pages's are quite different - but on either one you need to actually provide proof of any claims. Why not add those references, then remove the PROD notice...you have 7 days. The second one, you'll need to beware of WP:CRYSTAL, as it's not necessarily notable before its release, no matter how much time has been spent on it (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

In the article itself I have provided five reliable sources. In the discussion at the AfD entry I have provided 12 different reliable and verifiable sources. I provided links to several websites, newspapers (local, regional, national and internantional) and magazines, I provided all these sources and this is just the tip of the iceberg, all that to prove the article's notability. Because it is notable, and some people seem to be hellbent on deleting it still. The requirements at the Dutch wikipedia are, btw, probably stricter then here. So that, too, is a non-argument. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 11:22, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I would focus your efforts on improving the main article, Triangle Studios, ensuring that you reference the claims there using valid third party sources (not blogs, etc). For example, you have made claims that it is "one of the largest...in the Netherlands", but no third party reference to prove it. The individual game is probably less of your worry - if I were you I would ask for it to be userfied, and resurrect it once it is released to the public (the same concept around music albums). (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I suppose we could userfy the game article and redirect the page to the "In popular culture" section of the Pier Gerlofs Donia for the time being, if the RfD fails. But I'd rather wait a couple more days with that, see where it goes. Thanks for the advice, Bwilkins. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 12:04, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to further inflame anything, but I felt I had to remove a chunk from the "Triangle" article as a copyright-violation .  Chzz  ►  12:25, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

FYI

As of a few minutes ago, the backlog in Category:All unreferenced BLPs was completely cleared. The remaining 140 articles are all in a deletion process. About 20 months after the BLPRFC(s) and the >50,000 article black hole is gone. Regards, The-Pope (talk) 17:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

--intelatiColloquium 19:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yay! That's amazing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Further reading/External links

There are discussions going on at Talk:Hugo Chávez#External links and Talk:Hamid Karzai#External_links about a request for some typical links being added. The differences seem to be over wildly different interpretation of the EL guidelines, along with some confusion as to the difference between a search engine and a database. These aren't the sorts of things which should be re-fought on every single BLP article. In an ideal world, each article would have thousands of people worldwide constantly watching and updating it. That would not be this world. Either we want to provide readers with extended resources, or we want to limit them to what a contributor or two believe is important. (Which is most articles, once you remove the bots and copyedits and category additions and such from any article.) The latter doesn't sound reasonable or sensible to me, so I think we need a broader discussion than what's likely to be attracted to the Talk pages of these two articles. 75.59.229.4 (talk) 23:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I mentioned this issue at Misplaced Pages:External links/Noticeboard#Collected news and commentary. Johnuniq (talk) 01:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I was asked to comment here - and I was briefly involved in the request to add links. I think that our EL policy is already perfectly clear, and covers this - as I said on the Chavez talk page; we must avoid Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. Misplaced Pages isn't a directory.  Chzz  ►  03:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I think our existing EL policy is either too strict, or interpreted too strictly. I have seen this in several cases now. (I am NOT commenting on the current examples here; if I comment on them, I will comment on the appropriate talk pages.) I'm making a philosophical point that I think NOTDIR does not imply, in any way, that "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article" should be avoided. This is particularly true when we recognize that many articles are not featured articles and not likely to become featured articles anytime soon. Avoiding linking to something because it contains information that we would have directly, if we had a featured article, is silly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:38, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

One of the greatest challenges in maintaining articles is fighting the constant tendency for them to turn into link pages. Lowering the threshold can only make the job more difficult, and that isn't a service. I estimate that the articles I maintain get about 10 edits that add a spurious EL for every edit that adds meaningful content. Also the spammers are getting steadily more sophisticated at disguising their crap as legitimate material. Looie496 (talk) 14:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Looie; you're on the other end of the stick, Jimbo. You're saying "don't remove for no reason" and policy, practice, and yes, common sense says "don't link for no reason" - many of these EL sections are huge spammy linkfarms, and there is no specific reason to have them except that they're there, like Everest. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:10, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

It is incredibly rude of you to put words in my mouth which I did not say and do not believe. I never said, of external links, anything remotely close to "don't remove for no reason". Will you apologize for that misrepresentation? And re-read what I have actually said?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

"the spammers are getting steadily more sophisticated at disguising their crap as legitimate material." - this has got nothing to do with the two requests at the top of this thread, has it? I see only clearly WP:RS sources. Off2riorob (talk) 14:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Precisely. The request in question may be one that we reject, but it's a perfectly respectable request about clearly WP:RS. It seems clear to me that this question has absolutely nothing to do with spam.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Can a controversial subject make reference to subject-relevant peer-reviewed journals?

I would have assumed that question reads like a ridiculous one, but the article on Astrology has suffered a lot of disruption since Monday night, on the basis of this argument. I am talking about indiscriminate removals of whole passages of carefully referenced text, on the basis that if a reference goes to a journal which gives its focus to astrology - even if the journal is peer-reviewed and the author is a notable scientist with an excellent reputation for being a foremost authority, this constitutes an unreliable reference because it goes to a 'fringe' source. Other uninvolved editors have contributed arguments that sources are judged in context and even fringe subjects are allowed to reference their own journals. However this disruption is still ongoing by a few editors who claim that Misplaced Pages's policy on pseudoscience must prevent all reference to scientific claims unless they appear in mainstream recognized peer-reviewed journals.

I am trying to encourage the new editors to slow down and allow us all to work together to look at each passage critically, so we can identify if the problem really exists - and if it does, is it based on lack of objectivity or reliability of source. But the deletions keep re-occuring with the insistence that concerns about not giving coverage to pseudoscience-issues trumps all else on Misplaced Pages. The net result is that the astrology page is being prevented from making reference to what the dominant and influential astrological sources report.

I would like to ask an uninvolved administrator to give the content something like a 2-week period of edit-protection, in order to force amendments to go through the process of collaborative review. I see you are marked as having suitable status so can you do this Mr Wales? I am wary that I don't know who is going to be reliably objective on this matter, but it seems a big enough principle to deserve your attention. (And yes, the matter was brought up at the reliable sources noticeboard (see here) - but in such a way that it stirred up controversy, rather than clarifying what the issues really are.)

Hope you can find time to look at this - it would benefit everyone to have a sane voice from an objective observer, able to clarify that the real trump on Misplaced Pages is the application of common sense. -- Zac Δ 14:14, 29 September 2011 (UTC)