Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:15, 7 October 2011

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 1 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Italian wikipedia entirely blocked

• Seen this? Click on en at the top to read in english. Seems a bit of an extreme reaction, anger more than anything about content being jeopardized by the new law, but seems as it hasn't been passed yet...♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It can be argued that it's a masterful propaganda move; it would certainly get my attention if I were an Italian voter! --Orange Mike | Talk 20:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

How exactly was this accomplished? Every single page (not just articles) redirects straight back to the one linked above, and it appears to be a proper redirect as a opposed to a wikipedia style redirect. Who has the ability to do something like that? Surely it has to be a dev or a steward or a foundation member, its not like admins or crats could do that--Jac16888 20:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

In fact the admins can do that because it's a javascript and css trick Xavier Combelle (talk) 20:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It seems like they would have to do that on Meta though and not in the Wiki in order to affect every page like that. --Kumioko (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The same javascript is loaded for every page. It is easy to make this redirect the visitor regardless of where they come in. Dragons flight (talk) 21:01, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If I turn off javascript in my browser, I don't get redirected to that page anymore, but there's still no content on any of the pages. The article/discussion/history/edit tabs are still there, but going to those pages leads to a blank page too. I thought maybe it was a big white fixed position image hiding the content, but when I turn images off the same thing happens. Assuming this is not a developer's doing (hard to believe it would be), it's an interesting trick. We should probably make sure we know how they did it so that the next en.wiki admin who goes off the rails can't do something we can't readily undo. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a simple CSS display:none. Simple enough to undo. --Yair rand (talk) 21:18, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Using some debugging suite for web developers included in modern browser will made possible to disable javascript and modify style attributes. In particular #bodyContent display property has been set to "none", changing it to "inline", will show back again the main content. -- 21:18, 4 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.47.23.114 (talk)

Please read this --80.180.155.18 (talk) 21:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The mobile version stills hold the common.js: http://it.m.wikipedia.org/MediaWiki:Common.js Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a discussion going on here. ANything to say on this Jimbo? The proposed bill seems an invasion on human rights and freedom of expression.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:30, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm supportive. I think the Italians are moving rather more quickly than we would, and making a more dramatic gesture than we would, but that's ok: they're Italians and that's awesome. Their interpretation of the law is correct, based on reports I have from various people, and so it's worthwhile to make the point really BIG in Italy, and around the world: freedom of expression matters, if the world wants to have Misplaced Pages.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:51, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Awesome. At the moment there is a movement to try and address the silly UK defamation laws. As a British Wikipedian living in the UK this obviously is a risk I face every day; to be sued by someone for a frivolous matter and then fight a lengthy court case to prove my innocence. Any chance we could suspend English Misplaced Pages for a day in protest at the dangerous laws we are already living with?? --Errant 22:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It's contextual. In the UK, we have a much better opportunity to address the government directly, and so I doubt if a "strike" is the right thing. I could be persuaded in some circumstances, but in general, "strikes" are what you do when you are operating from a position of outsider/weakness. We aren't in that position in the UK.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:08, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there any way to have the Italian language wikipedia restored at least in Switzerland? I know that the idea of shutting it down wasn't yours, but since the Italians decided to block discussion as well as content pages I don't know where else I can ask this.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 04:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The articles seem to be accessible now. However, in general to access an article, use the "title=xx&action=edit" option on the URL address-line, such as to edit "Roma" (Rome):
  • http://it.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Roma&action=edit
Typically, the interface to edit and preview pages is separate from the redirection. Also, try deleting your browser cache history files. I am surprised those people would use Italian WP as an advocacy site to campaign against a proposed law in Italy, and block user-access as a political tactic. How do you say "il Wackopedia" in Italian? -Wikid77 (talk) 13:20, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Do they have a choice though in if the bill passes? Is it voted for? Am I missing something? Or is it to create a distaste among politicians that Italian people do not want this law passed and try to sway them, the latter I'd imagine? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• It seems to me that by its very nature Misplaced Pages is truly small-d democratic, and therefore a threat to those with a vested interest in suppressing the freedom of wiki-info. Thanks for your support Jimmy, it makes me feel better about the project than I have in some time. Bravo also to the Italian Wikipedians, the WMF, and ex-counsel Mike Godwin for taking a stand! Jusdafax 07:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Changes to it:WP statement

Note changes to the statement on Italian Misplaced Pages made earlier today:

• (Edit summary translation: In short, the law doesn't say that)
• (Edit summary translation: removal, replacement, impossible to assert that on the basis of the proposed law)

Even this corrected version does not seem to be right. As I understand the proposed law, the subject would have the right for a statement to be shown, unaltered, on the page (which actually would be possible for Misplaced Pages to do, via a transcluded and protected template). They would *not* have the right to have the content replaced by their version. (The Italian statement now says "chiedere l'introduzzione di una rettifica", i.e. "request the introduction of a correction", while the English version says "request to publish a corrected version".)

Frankly, given some of our past BLP problems, I am in part sympathetic to BLP subjects having some easy comeback against online writings which they feel portray them in an unduly poor light. There are two sides here -- see the Robert Fisk article from a few years ago.

Just as legal cases are lengthy and expensive for bloggers and the like, they are also expensive for BLP subjects who feel they are being defamed by an anonymous source on the Internet, including Misplaced Pages.

I think the WMF statement is a bit over-optimistic here! If anonymous crowds were so effective at writing neutral BLPs, the board resolution and years of hand-wringing on BLPs and pending changes would not have been necessary.

The Italian law as written does not seem a good idea, but I think our analysis should be a bit more measured. Note also that there seem to be far more press freedom issues at stake here than just the posting of corrections. Last year, the entire Italian news industry went on strike for a day over the same proposed bill, which is, after all, known as the *wiretapping* bill, governing the right to publish wiretapping transcripts. Apparently the initiative was sparked by the publication of some of Berlusconi's private indiscretions. See Guardian report. Giving those written about the right to have a statement or correction posted is just a small part of this bill.

The statement shown on it.wikipedia looks like it was knocked up in a hurry. For such a prominent action, it should have been vetted in a bit more detail, and the errors emended before it went live. We shouldn't be misinforming millions of people. --JN466 11:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It has been interesting to watch this discussion unfold and to see the news reports that have popped up. I knew nothing about what this law would actually do before I heard of it (obviously) but I don't feel like I know much more at this stage either. The risks of jumping to conclusions seem to have been forgotten in this media saturated age. Has anyone from the foundation, or its legal team, analyzed the language of this bill and done so with the help of an Italian legal expert? I'm all for the "power of the people" and all that jazz, but I hope everyone realizes that pretty much all the news stories out there are saying that "Misplaced Pages shut down its Italian site," which means that whether we like it or not the Foundation, or at least "Misplaced Pages" as a whole, is now on the hook regarding all this in the court of public opinion. If it turns out that the response was naive we're no better off for it. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think there is general agreement that the process here is problematic, whether the result was valid or not. I'm told that this was under discussion in the Italian community for months, and I trust that they are just as analytical and thorough as we are, so I don't think they got the law wrong, nor took the action lightly. However, they didn't let me know or the Foundation know or other communities know, so it wasn't possible to get them wider support and more "eyes on the problem" beforehand.

I was saying to someone the other day from a nonprofit organization who wanted me to join an open letter about an upcoming e-G20 meeting that "open letters" and similar (a protest like this one is an example) are what you do when you have no power or ability to do anything else. If we think of ourselves as weak and powerless, we may feel we have to do things like this in cases where we may not. Notice my answer to the question about UK defamation law, up above: in the UK in particular, if the law were to start to head in any novel and horrible direction, we have plenty of access to the highest levels of decision-making in the UK, and so a protest like this would have to come at the very end of a long series of activities, and would (if we ever did something like this in the UK, which I doubt) be part of a larger press strategy including publicly announcing that we are going to do it unless something gives, to create a "showdown" in the press, etc. without actually having to do it.

Had I been asked, that's what I would have suggested to the Italians, although one big difference is that I don't think we have any direct or indirect way into Berlusconi's office.

I don't think this highly unusual action should create a precedent of any kind. I hope that it generates a good conversation about when, where, how, and why such actions would be taken in various places in the future.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you saying David Cameron answers the phone when you call? (You don't have to answer that...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 12:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If we were about to close English Misplaced Pages in protest of some proposed law, if the situation were that desperate, then yes, he'd take my call without a doubt.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Probably. But after your refusal to get involved or even acknowledge the recent 'un-contributions' of KillerChihuahua (and friend) to Cameron's Misplaced Pages article, I expect there would be more than just the two of you in on that phone call. 99.50.186.180 (talk) 14:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo what kind of expert analysis of this entire situation is available to the Foundation, and I don't just mean legal analysis but also, and more importantly, political analysis? Let's say the hype is right and the bill would, if passed in its current state, actually mandate all these ridiculous corrections within 48 hours. Is it actually likely to pass, as written, or is this bill just part of the current episode of Italian political theater? Nothing I read in the news reports of this gives me an answer to that question. I appreciate the fact that the Foundation doesn't have particularly good access to the Italian government, but are we at least well informed on the matter?Griswaldo (talk) 12:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that, in the main, the advice the Foundation is getting is mainly from the Italian Misplaced Pages community. I think it's safe to say that, no, the Foundation is not well-informed on the matter, and that they received no advance warning. I consider that to be sub-optimal, obviously, but second-guessing the community in the midst of a breaking news story would send a really false signal. I hope to work with everyone after this calms down to talk about when, where, why, and how we might or might not do similar things in the future - what kind community processes, what kind of Foundation input, etc. But for now, it seems to be having the desired impact, and I'm sure I'll get a million questions about it next week when I'm in Italy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, I understand that - dealing with italian law and politics - you support the italian style action of dramatic blanking. I don't understand why you agree with the fact that this blanking has been done without consensus: (1) Italian editors have not been proposed any poll, (2) WMF has not been asked any suggestion nor legal support. Please be sure that admins of local projects, in the future, will no more be able to perform such a denail of service without consensus with editors and WMF. ZipoBibrok5x10^8 (talk) 14:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I am told that this was not a small group of admins, that it was discussed for a long time, and that there was strong support. However, having said that, I agree with you that in the future process should be much clearer, and actions like this should be taken in coordination with the Foundation and the wider community. One reason for that is so that we can time it to have maximum impact, give solid PR support from the Foundation, etc. This has never happened before, and we had no warning, so, you know, it's a little complicated.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I had a question about issue actually. I've been having a very hard time understanding how a process of discussion that even remotely resembles consensus building around this issue could have occurred while no one outside of the Italian Misplaced Pages was aware of it. It's just not possible unless the Italian Misplaced Pages is no bigger than a dozen editors. So in what manner exactly was this "under discussion in the Italian community for months," as Jimbo says? Like I said, I'm having a hard time understanding that, and maybe Jimbo or someone from the Italian Wiki can shed light on this.Griswaldo (talk) 15:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

These are good questions and I'm sure clear light will be shed on them in due course. I would love it if you would go and ask them and then report back here what you learn.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Non parlo l'italiano ... but, as you say, I'm sure we'll know more soon enough. Oh, and by the way I think your own response to the situation has been very measured and practical. Cheers for that.Griswaldo (talk) 15:58, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, I will do a deal. I won't comment on your "Italian" observations (Italian law v British law) above and you won't comment on this. However, since you are commentng on national laws and governance - are you Americans still strapping the convicted to medical stretchers and injecting them with poisonous chemicals and/or frying them in purpose built electrical chairs - while their compatriots chant with pleasure outside the prison gates - or can that be explained with "They are Americans and that is awsome" too. Don't patronise Italians please - each country's laws have their strengths and weaknesses and a nation cannot be stereotyped. Giacomo Returned 19:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Appreciate the sentiment, Giacomo, but I think Jimbo was talking in terms of WMF being in a better position in the UK because of existing communication with the authorities, not necessarily that Italy is a less open society or whatever (although, it has to be said, take a look at the laws they are passing). --FormerIP (talk) 20:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you appreciate it, but i was actually posting here until moved. However, what on earth is Jimbo doing saying "here in the UK, we......." is he now a British national? I've lived in the Uk for longer than I care to remember, but I dont assume to say "we in the UK." Giacomo Returned 20:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

IIRC, Jimbo has legal resident status in the UK as a result of a marriage to a UK national? Collect (talk) 21:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I am taking Jimbo to mean WMF when he says "we". Maybe that's the source of the confusion. --FormerIP (talk) 21:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

What a sort of a royal "we"? Giacomo Returned 21:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

When I talk about organisations I'm involved with, I often say "we". In fact, I do that on Misplaced Pages all the time to mean Misplaced Pages. Anyway, I'm going to leave this sub-discussion here and Jimbo can defend his own choice of words if he wants to. --FormerIP (talk) 21:20, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo. Perhaps you will be so kind, to support the solidarity address here: de:Misplaced Pages:Solidaritätserklärung_mit_dem_italienischen_Wikipedia-Streik. -- Andreas Werle (talk) 21:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it was important here that Jimbo gave his stance on this. For a major wikipedia to go on strike if he'd said nothing it would have looked as if he didn't care. He obviously does care, and I'm pretty sure he'll be discussing this issue until he's blue in the face when he visits Italy next week. As a British national myself I think he is right about the UK system and that differences exist and it would take something much more desperate to happen in the UK for English wikipedia to come up with the same response by going on strike, I think that's what he is saying, and I agree. As this has never happened before I am glad actually that he is taking the time to consider what should happen if it ever happens again and how the foundation would react to potentially come up with the most effective strategy.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld. Thx for your comment. In addition to my request for supporting the italian colleagues i would say that it is puzzling to me that the situation in italy is not mentioned on the english main-page. This should be changed in order to bring the information to more users in en:wp. Greetings -- Andreas Werle (talk) 21:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Clearly a good reason to keep standards of editing and notability up as high as possible. Off2riorob (talk) 22:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Now what?

In a comment to the Wikimedia Foundation blog post about this someone has now written:

Ok apparently after the last discussions the “mandatory rectification” is now required only for sites registered as “testata giornalistica” (i.e. somehow considered as a newspaper/tabloid/”regular” publication), so Misplaced Pages shouldn’t be affected anymore.

Does anyone know if this is true? If it is does the Foundation's position on this change and/or do the Italian Wikipedians who shut the site down now put it back up? I'm asking because self-preservation makes political action like this much more understandable than it would be if it were merely ideologically driven. As we've seen from some of the comments there some people think that it is against our own principles to take political action, and I think this becomes a convincing argument especially if our own interests are no longer a direct concern. So now what?Griswaldo (talk) 18:58, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Taking political action is against any Misplaced Pages principle. Are we writing a 💕 or are we founding a political party? ZipoBibrok5x10^8 (talk) 01:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

"The bill, due to begin its journey through parliament next week, includes a clause that puts blogs on the same footing as news websites. It stipulates that anyone who believes they have been defamed or misrepresented in a blog has a right of reply. The blogger would get 48 hours in which to accede to the demand. In the event of a refusal, he or she would become liable for the fine. This is not the first time Berlusconi's government has prompted howls of outrage from the blogosphere. A similar proposal was made last year, but failed to make headway in the legislature." Hooper, John (27 September 2011), Italy's bloggers to protest over 'fascist' right to reply bill, The Guardian {{citation}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help). postdlf (talk) 02:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It seems that part of the proposed bill has now been changed: --JN466 08:06, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

And it looks like they are back to business.Griswaldo (talk) 12:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Infoboxes in biographies of classical musicians

Hi, wondering if Jim or a page watcher would care to look at the discussion at Richard D'Oyly Carte about the appropriateness and usefulness of infoboxes in the biographies of classical musicians and related articles. I was so astonished at the stance there I briefly dipped into some facetiousness before hauling myself back out. Yopienso (talk) 22:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Huh, if theres one thing you should avoid on wikipedia is adding infoboxes to classical music biographies. They are strongly detested by the opera group.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

So I discovered yesterday. My question is, what does Jimbo think about a bloc of editors commanding such power over a complete set of articles? Yopienso (talk) 13:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• That is why we need more rules to deter bullying which stops improvements. Perhaps they should read "WP:Thinking outside the infobox" as to how using infoboxes speeds translation of thousands articles into many other languages, because the infobox is standardized for simplified bot translation of many article stubs. Is there some hidden reason why they will not allow infoboxes when traditional theaters have "opera boxes"? -Wikid77 (talk) 14:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Any examples of such articles created by bot translation? I was not aware that this really happens and is approved on Misplaced Pages. I know that some of the artificial language wiki's are populated by bots translating articles on populated places, but I don't think that giving any support for such fake encyclopedias is what we want to do. I haven't noticed any biographies being translated from or to English by bots at all though. Fram (talk) 14:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

There are a lot of bulk-load edits of new articles, but I do not know of any interwiki bot translations yet. Most of the copied infobox stubs seem to be from people repeatedly hand-translating stubs. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

So basically your argument pro infoboxes was baseless? Please refrain from introducing such arguments in discussions, they only serve to muddy the waters. Fram (talk) 06:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Would never get consensus to do so on here. Although I'm thinking of proposing a bot which translates German/French/Spanish/Poish wiki articles using google translate into the wikipedia work space and which can be moved into the mainspace once proof read and sourced. But given that articles need to be proof read it would just as easily be done manually whenever an editor wants to translate one. If google translate was perfected a bot translating articles would be useful but the articles would still need to be placed in categories of "needing proof reading" and given the millions of articles needing translating and lack of editors would be years before they could all be checked and in the meantime could contain mistranslated and incorrect info so overll would be a bad idea... In regards to infoboxes I quite like the fact that composer articles just have a photograph, in fact I dislike infoboxes in biography articles. I only see their use really for articles which have a lot of facts like aircraft etc or to display pin maps for places and buildings.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

In 2004, Google Translate was formerly translating articles correctly between several languages, including conjugation of verbs and declension of nouns, with proper word-order placement. However, I think it was considered "too slow" or limited to just a dozen languages. If we could find another old-style language translation site, then we could quickly expand the "big articles" to have text from other Wikipedias, by copy/paste/translate, with first masking "Frankenstein" as "XFrankenstein" (or such) to avoid getting "French stone" in the translation. Some of the Google Mutate results are totally incomprehensible, and take hours to re-translate. However, as I remember, translation from Swedish-to-English was better, so perhaps find a German article, get the Swedish and translate that as a start. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

What of course we are trying to achieve is for there to be the same quantity and eveness of coverage and quality of articles across all 260 wikipedias and some sort of system where as every article (missing) is created on another wikipedia we have the chance to have it started at the same time in english and in any other language so the effort put in by any wikipedian in any language can benefit all of the other wikipedias. Maybe in the future if google translate is perfected we could have a go at sorting a bot to bridge the gap in badly needed areas where the general quality on the other wikipedia is high. Ultimately of course we want everything to be human written and checked but it could certainly be very useful to do to gruelling work needed initially on articles such as our empty one liners on German municipalities and French communes in fleshing them out..♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I find it curious that half of the infobox supporters in a recent straw poll there (Talk:Richard_D'Oyly_Carte#Count) are WP:ARS regulars. Rather than asking "what can we do about a bloc of editors commanding such power?", perhaps the question would be "why do a bloc of editors insist on imposing editing styles on a wikiproject?" As noted in the discussions on that page, boxes are not mandatory. Tarc (talk) 17:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This has absolutely nothing to do with the ARS. DGG and Michael are ARS regulars, sure, but they are both also heavily involved in numerous areas on Misplaced Pages. And i'm not sure if any of the other supporters are members, i'm not going to bother checking though I believe Noleander is, but unless you're saying that all 300+ members of the ARS are "regulars", you have absolutely nothing. Now I would respectfully ask for you to stop badmouthing the ARS everywhere you go when we have absolutely nothing to do with a discussion. Silverseren 19:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually I often save articles from AFD and I voted oppose..♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Seren's spirited defense of his cohorts aside, the question remains; why are editors trying to impose infoboxes onto a project that feels the articles are better off without them? Wikiprojects do not own their respective articles, sure, but they are more familiar with the subject matter than non-members are at times. This seems to be one of them, and editors trying to enforce some sort of "there must be infoboxes everywhere!" sameness/uniformity is a bit pushy IMO. Tarc (talk) 21:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Please be more careful in alleging conspiracies. You are mistaken, at least on my part. Please answer my question instead of posing your own.

My answer to yours: Speaking for myself only, not editors, plural (There is no cabal.), as a user--and I use much more than I edit--I appreciate uniformity for multiple reasons.

• First and foremost, I know where to find things. If editors on any given page had the leeway to choose different styles for titles and subtitles and general outlines--that is, if each page had its own look--it would be confusing. (And, yes, editors do have the leeway to include or exclude infoboxes; I'm just answering your question.)
• Second, uniformity gives the encyclopedia a more professional appearance.
• Third, uniformity makes for easier editing. This is a case in point. Never did I imagine there was a bloc of editors who closed ranks against infoboxes. So here I've waded into something I very reasonably thought was an anomaly--and it is, really, compared to the bulk of WP where I've never encountered a dislike for infoboxes--because of a lack of uniformity. Having different rules for different pages creates confusion.
• Fourth, and this is in regards to infoboxes specifically, not uniformity in general, the infoboxes are a great aid to the general reader who perhaps never heard of the subject before. The opera group (There is no cabal.) seem to want to have a snooty enclave in Misplaced Pages aimed at scholars opera experts. Now, I could be mistaken about this, and please point to the policy if I am, but I understand the project is aimed at informing the general public, not scholars. Scholars supposedly don't use general-reference encyclopedias, anyway.
• Last, this seems like a states' rights v. federalist struggle: is each Wikiproject a sovereign entity, or is Misplaced Pages one big umbrella project with many sub-projects?

Well, in any case, as a drive-by editor, I'm respecting the consensus on those pages. Thanks to each for your perspective and best wishes to all. Yopienso (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Making any sort of connection between infoboxes and subject specific knowledge of a user (Wikiproject or not) is a fallacious argument. Infoboxes are not subject matter, they are a formatting opinion. The opinions of users in regards to them all count equally and members of any Wikiproject, regardless of their subject specific knowledge, does not count any more than any other user. Infoboxes are purely an opinion and the use of them should be done through consensus. That is what was done in this situation and done properly, consensus was re-established and there is nothing wrong with that. Please stop trying to make it seem like there is some sort of infobox conspiracy going on. Silverseren 22:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh seren, if only it really were as simple as you proclaim. However, we have the topic initiator who is "astonished" that a "snooty enclave" wasn't interested in his infoboxes, and came calling on Mr. Wales for his input. Then Wnt decries the "bullying" by the opera project members. Yopienso drops "bloc" into his commentary several times, which is indeed asserting that the wiki-project is acting like a cabal, despite his protests that he never meant that. Yes, infobox use can come about by consensus. The consensus rejected the usage, but Yopienso and Wnt come here to Mr. Wales talk page acting like a pair of missionaries who just can't understand why those operatic heathens couldn't accept their enlightened view of the Wiki-world. I also noted how some of the usual players in these sorts of things cropped up in the original discussion, which made you extra-testy. The matter here is quite simple; an editing proposal was made, consensus came down against it, and the originator is complaining about it. Tarc (talk) 01:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not even going to bother. Your constant incivility is the worst out of anyone on this site. Silverseren 03:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Yopienso's summary was well put. I expect "snooty" referred to some statements in the infobox discussion, particularly the one stating that readers should have to read the entire article, not encouraged to skim an infobox. iow, implying Misplaced Pages is not here for the convenience of our readers, but to "educate them" in the precise way a few contributors deem correct and proper. Whether that was the consensus of the group or the opinion of a specific Wikipedian wasn't clear. (Tarc, thank you for pouring petrol on the fire. You never fail to delight in that regard.) 99.50.186.180 (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You're quite welcome, Roi. Pontifications aside, is is still puzzling to see why this matter ever came to Jimbo's page at all. If editors have reached a consensus that a box detracts from the article rather than enhances it, and no policies are being violated by this consensus, then is there a legitimate beef here? All it seems to boil down to here is "I disagree, so I will appeal to another authority", similar to the sentiment that one sees in many flawed DRV filings. Tarc (talk) 16:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Tarc, did you miss the memo? Everyone, for whatever reason, is allowed to post here, without being accused of forumshopping, canvassing, or anything else (at least, without being accused of these things by Jimbo, what other people think of it may be different...) Fram (talk) 18:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Given the division of opinion over infoboxes I'm not sure why the option in "my preferences" isn't introduced to hide all infoboxes and those who want them can have them and those who detest them can simply hide them and by default just feature whatever photo is in the infobox to be thumb nailed at the top. Flexibility is the key...♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

And where does that end, exactly? The real issue is: What constitutes a consensus? The people who happen to be working on a particular article or project at that particular moment in time? (Remember: no canvassing!) What about overlapping projects, such as Biography and Opera, which come to different consensuses? What about the views of users/readers which are currently only being represented by editors? Editors who are purportedly mostly young educated males from western countries, according to Sue Gardner? What about those who lose a given argument, but simply wait a bit until a new group with a different consensus shows up? Or run to a different but similar article? And then the 'other side' does the same? This is the same problem every single online volunteer community project has faced as volunteers and users and popularity hit the tipping point. Volunteers often start in some particular area of interest. As they contribute (and look) beyond that, and as time passes and others do the same, they expect some consistency: "We've tried several alternatives, now let's settle on some standards for a better user experience." That's when these arguments start and long-time volunteers disappear. It's pointless to spend time and effort if your contributions will likely be deleted at some point in time, on the basis of whim or personal preferences of a few people wearing the cloak of "consensus". Those contributions aren't likely to be restored later, as who would even think to search for them? You don't know what you do't know. All it often takes is once. It's pointless to spend time and effort if one's contributions have to be re-justified in each and every article when the facts and reasons are the same, but the "consensus" (meaning the people participating) varies. It becomes a charade, and we lose contributors. This is our biggest current problem, and won't be solved by Eddie Haskell-style "politeness". Truth to power: Solve the problem. 99.50.186.180 (talk) 19:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, this is a small individual kerfuffle, but illustrates the general issue of real content writers leaving the Wiki. When you have someone actually writing actual content, it is a complete buzzkill to have these Aspie infobox-adders or taggers come by and try to imose their desire for format on articles. It is significant valuable work to read books, structure a page, write multiple paragraphs, decide what to exclude versus include...all the work of composition...and even worse having to do it in the wiki markup language and a non WYSIWYG window. Oh...and no lectures about everyone is equal or AGF or NPA please. This is a serious thing to let Jimbo know. We are ten years into this thing and vast spaces of vital articles are not written. There is a reason. The real content contributors are turned off by the over aggressive gnomes and bullies. They vote with their feet...07:24, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Those edit requests

If you have a sec, please take a look at the;

• 2 COI edit requests: Talk:Banner Lassen Medical Center , Talk:Ejaculation
• 19 semi-protected edit requests: Talk:Armando Montelongo , Talk:Bambi II , Talk:Bear Grylls , Talk:Brazil , Talk:Ed Sheeran , Talk:Ejaculation , Talk:Elizabeth Warren , Talk:Feminism , Talk:Hipster (contemporary subculture) , Talk:Human height , Talk:Jat people , Talk:Mona Lisa , Talk:Muhammad Ali , Talk:Niggerhead , Talk:Occupy Wall Street , Talk:Onomatopoeia , Talk:Peggy Lehner , Talk:Rihanna , Talk:Tamara Toumanova
• 5 protected edit requests: Talk:1919 Hungarian–Romanian War , Talk:Paragliding , MediaWiki talk:Gadget-defaultsummaries.js , Template talk:Multiple issues , Template talk:Multiple issues/message

...and, of course, WP:FEED. Cheers,  Chzz  ►  21:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Especially WP:FEED. Isn't it a bit crap, how we ignore people trying to add encyclopaedic content, whilst worrying over bureaucratic crap?  Chzz  ►  22:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

That's a lot of stuff to look at, and some of it involves looking at the talk pages of articles that annoy me so much that I mainly try to pretend they don't exist. :-)

Can you sum up your point? I think what you are saying is "Many people request edits and then get ignored" although several of the examples that you linked to now have responses, though maybe that's because you posted them here? If I've missed your point, I apologize, and please clarify, thanks! :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:58, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Since he's the one who started the "let's delete lots of External links because that's my personal interpretation" bit, I assumed this is his attempt to distract people from discussing that and similar "bureaucratic crap" (his term) so he can continue on his idiosyncratic way, unimpeded. No? 99.50.186.180 (talk) 18:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:verifiability first sentence topic which you recently commented now has a proposal up for RFC

Hello Jimbo,

You recently commented on a discussion regarding "verifiability, not truth" in the first sentence of wp:verifiability. A compromise proposal has emerged and is up for RFC at: Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability#RFC - Compromise proposal re first sentence Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Technology pioneer

Just curious, what are your reactions/thoughts to the passing of Steve Jobs? Personally, I consider you among those in the sphere of our contemporary technology visionaries, along with people like Marc Andreessen, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Tim Berners-Lee, Vint Cerf, Jon Postel, Grace Hopper and many many others. It is strange to me, as the years passed, I had as many kind words for Steve Jobs as frustrated ones, but I have to say that, in balance, he will definitely be missed. -- Avanu (talk) 03:52, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Very sad. He was so young, 56, only 11 years older than me. Thank you for your compliment, it's an honor to be listed alongside names like those.

Because several people have asked me already today, I'll add the answer to a question you didn't ask. I never met Steve Jobs. I did get an email from him once, which is an amusing story that I'll tell someday soon.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Italy redux

There seems to be some misunderstanding in the media about who is reponsible for the events in Italy. This story by the BBC is attributing the actions and statements to "Misplaced Pages", not merely to the Italian Misplaced Pages. Looie496 (talk) 05:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

so? You will find a lot of quotes "According to wikipedia...", not "According to User:XYZ and User:OPF, authors of wikipedia's article 'XYZ'..." Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, it's not completely incorrect, since the Foundation did endorse that blackout after all. Regards SoWhy 16:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales deserves Nobel Peace Prize

	Jimbo Wales deserves Nobel Peace Prize
	Why is Jimbo Wales not geting Nobel Peace Prize and Turing Award and Marconi Prize and Copley Medal Pachyobs (talk) 07:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Because he already has us. →Σ ⚑  ☭  08:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Because our ArbCom system hasn't yet been outsourced to settle real world disputes, we're still in the process of optimizing it for dealing with problems here on Misplaced Pages. Count Iblis (talk) 16:09, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Italian WP unblocked after 16 million forced pageviews

Thanks!

	A belated thank you
	Thanks again for coming out to The Children's Museum of Indianapolis last month! I wanted to share some WikiLove, courtesy of my son Teddy: Misplaced Pages Song by Teddy Teddy (Age 3) made up his own song about Misplaced Pages. Problems playing this file? See media help. LoriLee (talk) 23:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, here are the images from your visit: Commons:Category:Jimmy Wales at The Children's Museum of Indianapolis. LoriLee (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)