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October 8

yamaha 125 tzr motorbike engine

how do you assemble the engine if it is stripped to the core or where will i be able to get a workshop manual for this specific bike. help is urgently needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pieter schuurman (talk • contribs) 07:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

There are some on eBay:. Amazon should have some as well. Get the most comprehensive one you can.--Aspro (talk) 13:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

What kind of pet collars are popular in Europe and the United States?

What kind of pet collars are popular in Europe and the United States? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Summer zara (talk • contribs) 09:15, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I would think a ("safe" unless you are actually interested in kinky sex) google image search on the terms "dog collar" and "cat collar" would be the best way to get your answer. μηδείς (talk) 10:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

In the US: For cats, they are usually cloth collars with "breakaway" rubber loops on them (that break if the cat gets stuck on something, so they can't get stuck or choke). I've never seen anything but those on cats. For dogs there is more variety because they are used for more than just identification. There is a standard cloth collar. There are varieties of metal "pinch" collars that work against tugging dogs. There are harnesses that hold them more around the shoulders. There are "gentle" harnesses which attach to the head somehow. I think that's all of the variety that I'm used to seeing. (I'm a "dog person" and live in an area where I see dozens of dogs being walked each day.) --Mr.98 (talk) 13:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

See also Dog collar. --Psud (talk) 13:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I have five dogs and we have plenty of collars. What has been said is accurate and any additional info can surely be found by searching the web sites of any retailers such as PetsMart or PetCo. Dismas| 14:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Bridal Showers

I have been invited to a bridal shower. The invitation said it is a "show shower", and so the gifts should not be wrapped. What, exactly, is this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.86.144.51 (talk) 14:41, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you read bridal shower? That seems to explain it pretty well.--Shantavira| 15:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't see any explanation of a "show shower" there, although it sounds like it may mean nothing more than "bring unwrapped gifts". StuRat (talk) 22:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

"show shower", so no pressure then! Caesar's Daddy (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

internet acronyms

What is the longest phrase / sentence that you can write only using internet acronyms? Harley Spleet (talk) 15:25, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Acronyms are nearly all nouns, so I don't see how one could create a phrase or sentence using only acronyms.--Shantavira| 15:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

My favorite from my days in Eve Online probably has the most letters - OMGWTFBBQ. You can add a LULZ at the end, but it becomes TL;DR FTL-- Obsidi♠n Soul 19:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

What if you then add QSO DSV KN to the end of that? 148.197.81.179 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC).

Queensland Symphony Orchestra Diving Support Vessel Knudsen Number? I approve.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 11:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

What are "internet acronyms" and how do they differ from normal acronyms? 82.43.90.142 (talk) 06:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps OP is referring to textspeak. I have a friend with whom I regularly correspond by text. We make up our own initialisms on the fly and can usually understand each other. Textspeak is not acronyms.--Shantavira| 07:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

pre-mature ejaculation

how to prevent it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.128 (talk) 15:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you read premature ejaculation? We can't give you medical advice, but there are some suggestions in the article.--Shantavira| 15:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Think of baseball, or England if you're closeted. Dualus (talk) 04:55, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Or, wait until you're mature (as opposed to trying it when you're pre-mature). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

It's probably better if you didn't chime in on everything bugs. Shadowjams (talk) 10:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That's why I don't. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

string theory

can anyone explain this in way average people like me would understand. im wondering why is this a candidate for TOE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.2 (talk) 15:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion for easing your way into this is to read (or watch) Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which, though it has some parts that make real scientists squirm (and the book is a little out of date), is a nice overview of why scientists like string theory in particular, and why they think it makes a nice candidate for a TOE, and also some of the major challenges that they have with regards to it. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

TOE? Would that be Theory of everything? Astronaut (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Undoubtedly. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:18, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

"String theory is often called the 'Theory of Everything' (TOE). However, since so far it makes no predictions observable by experiment, a better name might be the 'Theory of Everything Not Appearing in Laboratories' (TOENAIL)." — Warren Siegel
-- BenRG (talk) 06:49, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem with string theory is, not even physicists understand it, so of course they can't really explain it to average people. That, naturally, won't stop people to write popular science books on it. – b_jonas 18:33, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

No human could ever possibly understand an omipotent and eternal being who created the universe out of nothing, but that sure hasn't stopped people talking and writing about God forever. -- Jack of Oz 19:00, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

But creating fantasy fiction is much easier than describing a ToE that, to be scientific, has to accord with observable (and by everyday standards quite weird) reality :-) . {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.142 (talk) 21:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

If you get bored of high dimensional space, there is the possibility that the universe 2-D instead of 3-D which is well regarded and increasing in popularity especially in the U.K. Dualus (talk) 04:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Specification for Bell & Howell Micro Plus ?

This is a low-end hearing aid. I'd like to know the following:

1) What battery does it use ?

2) Is it a directional microphone ? If so, specifically what type (shotgun, cardioid, etc.)

I'd also be interested in seeing any reviews of the product (originating from anyone who isn't trying to sell it, of course). Thanks. StuRat (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Hat etiquette in 1935

Were men allowed to keep their hats on inside a courthouse in 1935 Alabama? I am asking because I am playing the role of Judge Taylor in the stage version of "To Kill A Mockingbird" and there is one actor who is wearing a hat and it just bothers me and seems like it would be considered disrespectful. Thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.46.18.178 (talk) 23:16, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Definitely not. The judge would have reacted as in My Cousin Vinny.μηδείς (talk) 23:29, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Or for that matter, as he reacted in Disorder in the Court. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:23, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is a still from the 1962 film - only the ladies retain their hats. It was made less than 30 years after the book was written, but the story was told as a recollection of childhood memories, so must have been set a few years earlier than 1935. Alansplodge (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The dude on the left is a time traveller from our day — he's answering his cell phone in court and getting away with it! Comet Tuttle (talk) 07:03, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Where does that happen? Last time I was in a courtroom, if a cell phone was even seen, the judge confiscated it and it cost $20 to get it back. — Michael J 20:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That's quite a trick to get a connection to a cell tower that won't be there for another few decades. Googlemeister (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Men are not typically allowed to wear headgear, except religious headgear, in courtrooms even today... Neutrality 00:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

A restriction on wearing a hat in the courtroom meets this standard. First, it is reasonably related to the maintenance of courtroom civility and respect for the judicial process. Judges have an obligation to maintain the dignity of judicial proceedings and to oversee courtrooms in a manner that promotes their integrity. Requiring litigants to remove their hats out of respect for this process is reasonably calculated to advance these valid interests. Similarly, it is appropriate for a court to expect litigants to appear in attire that is suitable to the dignity of a courtroom, rather than to show up in clothes they might have worn to a baseball game. The reasonable admonishment of litigants who wear casual or inappropriate attire promotes legitimate ends by reminding them that the judicial process deserves to be approached with respect.

Footnote: The interests in courtroom order and decorum may also be outweighed by an individual’s right to wear a hat based upon the dictates of his or her religious practice. See, e.g., Tyson, 2004 WL 1837033, at 6 ("Accepted standards of courtroom etiquette do not necessarily prevail over an individual’s exercise of his religion, if the latter does not impact courtroom security or interfere in courtroom procedures."); Close-It Enterprises, Inc. v. Weinberger, 407 N.Y.S.2d 587, 588 (2d Dep’t 1978) (finding right of defendant to wear religious skullcap in courtroom). Of course, no such religious practice is implicated here.

On this side of the pond, the judge doesn't go bareheaded either. Alansplodge (talk) 01:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I often wondered if anyone ever showed up in a US court wearing the formal UK court dress and got told off for disturbing court decorum. Googlemeister (talk) 14:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I imagine a US judge would assume you were doing it as some sort of gag. APL (talk) 14:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it would help in an insanity plea. Googlemeister (talk) 19:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

October 9

Hupp Motor Car Company

Did the Hupp Motor Car Company ever have a factory in Windsor ON. Canada? I saw a print in the TD Canada Trust branch in Windsor saying circa 1913.Is this true?Please reply to <email address removed> Thanks for your time and hopefully your reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.177.43 (talk) 02:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I've remove the e-mail address from the post. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)>

Yes Thincat (talk) 19:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Growth in the number of archaeologists in the Middle East and North Africa besides Israel and Egypt

So, my Human Cultural Beginnings professor was going over various sites of prehistoric hominin (apparently now the accepted term for hominid) finds and I noted that many of the sites were in Israel. She said that it was mostly because it has the heaviest concentration of archaeologists and many are not welcome in much of the rest of the Middle East and North Africa. She said that most people in other countries tend to desire career paths as things like engineers, but there is emerging a new trend of people becoming archaeologists in the countries other than the two up top.

So, I would like to know if there is possibly, idk, some sort of chart, graph or report on this showing the number of people graduating from institutions of higher learning with archaeological degrees (though I suspect the education systems vary from place to place with some possibly being based on the US system and others French or British). I suspect this would be in Arabic, a language I can niether read nor understand sadly. Though I could be wrong and it might be in English (though I'm not sure what to look for English-wise). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 11 Tishrei 5772 05:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Just looking at the UK experience, we see that archaeology degrees have become more popular over the last few years (possibly due to Time Team). Here is an overview of undergraduate courses, while here explains that there is a rise in graduate jobs as archaeologists. By the way, I suspect that the reason for the heavy concentration of archaeologists in Israel is because of a preoccupation with "proving the Bible true" in our forebears. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think that Indy is the reason for many people in the US. What? Jobs? You mean archaeologists can actually get a job in the UK? What am I going after this silly Medical Degree then? :p Part of the reason; it also used to be that people in Israel wanted to find their past there, where they come from. There was also a Zionist ideal in it as well which has born fruit so far. When I think about it though, a lot of it is just digging, interpretation and not so much trying to prove the Bible true, but seeing how the stories in the Bible match up to the evidence. Some people also dig for things not covered by the Bible, but it's a bitch getting funding then. (Various science institutes: Sure, one of the largest Canaanite palaces is interesting, but where's this site talked about in the Bible at all? *NSF and other groups hand money to site about Joshua or w/e*), So I think it is also about being able to get funding. My dig directors are very honest btw, and have told about some less than honest people in other places that claim some Biblical association to get funding.

You know, when I think it about it. Most of those countries are quite oppressive and might not release such stats normally; though that doesn't make sense. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 11 Tishrei 5772 07:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding hominid vs. hominin, you might take a look at this page. Looie496 (talk) 13:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I consider it to be a big pain in the ass, so if no one minds I think I'll use hominid (it's still kinda correct, just a lot broader). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 11 Tishrei 5772 21:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on whether you mean Western archaeologists visiting sites in the Middle East, or Middle Eastern archaeologists visiting sites in their home countries. Considering the way some westerners are welcomed in the Middle East (see: and for archaeology related examples; and , , , for more general examples) maybe only Israel and Egypt are considered safe enough for archaeological digs. Astronaut (talk) 14:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I was referring to home-grown archaeologists excavating in their own countries mostly. Syria has some digs, I know that much, but not atm given that someone there is being naughty. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 11 Tishrei 5772 21:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

If you find interesting information, please see if you can add something to Archeology of Israel. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Like what? I do archaeology in Israel and would be happy to contribute. :) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 11 Tishrei 5772 21:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The article has an ongoing tension. Should it be about "how archeology is done in Israel" or should it be about "what archeologists have found out about Israel". Have a read and see what you think. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:26, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

When I've time; I must currently spend most of my times focused on German and early hominid development (damn dirty non-apes). Wouldn't it be logical to have both method (even though I fucking hate archaeological theory except for post-post-processualism/neo-pragmatism or culture history) and finds? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 07:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Spare change

Why can't I use my spare change account that has money in it instead of buying facebook credits to buy credits in different games? Please help me I'm not sure who to contact or how to take care of this and I don't know how to get credits (they have me blocked due to my account being hacked in the spring of this year) so the only way I can buy credits for a game is through spare change however I can only find one game that allows me to use this site (Diligo slot game.) Sorry to take up your time, and thank you for any help you can provide for me.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendrakay458 (talk • contribs) 09:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I really haven't a clue what you are asking about, but if this is about paying for a Facebook game perhaps you should be asking at Facebook's user help, rather than here on the Misplaced Pages reference desk. Astronaut (talk) 13:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Each year, about how many of NYC’s tourists will actually leave Manhattan to see and go to the popular tourist destinations in the outer boroughs?

I’ve been told many times by New Yorkers that the majority of the NYC tourists go to Manhattan never leave the island except when they have to go back to the airport to go back to their homes, but out of the approximately 50 million tourists, who visit NYC every year now, how many of them are estimated to actually leave Manhattan to the outer boroughs to see and go to places like the Bronx Zoo, the New York Botanical Gardens in the Bronx, Flushing Meadow-Corona Park, Yankee Stadium in the Bronx, “The Hub” in the Bronx, Coney Island in Brooklyn, Prospect Park in Brooklyn, the Brooklyn Chinatown, and drive or walk across the Brooklyn Bridge from Manhattan to Brooklyn, and take the Staten Island Ferry from Manhattan to Staten Island, etc? I have not seen any official numbers, which I've been looking around for. Willminator (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where you would get such figures since IDs like passports are not usually checked when visiting parks. How would statistics on tourist visitor numbers ever be collected? However, I have visited New York City a number of times as a (foreign) tourist and have crossed the harbour on the Statten Island Ferry and walked across the Brooklyn Bridge; though I admit both trips were for the purpose of taking photos of Manhattan rather then visiting a different borough. I also have a liking for local sporting events and on a future visit I would like to try to get tickets for a game at Yankee Stadium. Astronaut (talk) 13:43, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You couldn't do a full census, sure, but you could get very accurate results by just asking a sample of people as they leave. It wouldn't surprise me if the relevant tourism board has done such surveys. --Tango (talk) 15:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, if some tourists guides and websites, and some New Yorkers say that the majority of NYC tourists only stay in Manhattan for tourism; then would that indicate that there would be an official annual count for that somewhere to back that claim up? Would there be a count somewhere that says how many tourists visit Manhattan each year vs. how many for each of the other boroughs? Willminator (talk) 20:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC) Edit: If the city can determine the number of annual tourist arrivals to the whole city (~50 million), then surely they can determine the number of tourist arrivals for each individual borough for tourism reasons only, but I can't find for some reason relevant tourism surveys about this matter, but there are plenty for the city as a whole though. Willminator (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The Brooklyn Bridge and the Staten Island Ferry are major tourist attractions in Manhattan, so some tourists, at least, would visit the ends of the line, which are in other boroughs. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:43, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't find a citation that has actual numbers in it, but New York is a popular destination for "Shopping Tourism". There are package tours specifically for this purpose. (Especially when the dollar is weak against the pound or euro.) If your trip's primary purpose is shopping, I suppose you'd stay in Manhattan. APL (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

So, if someone, a tourist guide or book, or some internet article positively claim that most tourists stay in Manhattan only for tourist reasons, would that mean that the claim is probably based on personal opinion than fact after all, and would it be right to question that claim unless the claimant can back it up with actual, official numbers? Willminator (talk) 01:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Many tourist destinations such a museums, parks, and the like will provide estimates for the number of visitors they get a year. Given a list of major destinations in the other boroughs, you can research these and compare them to major destinations in Manhattan. Obviously it won't tell you about whether tourists leave Manhattan for the specific purpose of visiting other borough sites, but if the Manhattan figures are generally much larger than the outside figures, then it would make a good circumstantial argument that most visitors are probably staying in Manhattan. Dragons flight (talk) 15:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I took some initiative to investigate and research more and I finally got some data in the article tourist attractions in the United States. Apparently, the most visited attraction in NYC and in the U.S is Times Square, which now receives 35 million tourists annually. The second most visited tourist destination in NYC and the 18th in the U.S is the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which gets 4.5 million tourists each year. The third on the list for NYC and the 24th for the U.S is the American Museum of National History with 4 million tourists going there annually. The Central Park article says that Central Park is the most visited Park in the U.S with 25 million tourists annually.

All this information is a good start. It indicates that there are more visited tourist destinations in Manhattan than all the other tourist destinations in the outer boroughs. However, the information is still incomplete because I still can’t find the number for the annual amount visitors for each individual tourist attraction and landmark in the outer boroughs that I mentioned in the mother thread, plus the other tourist attractions and sights in the outer boroughs that I haven’t mentioned, to compare them with Manhattan’s. I confirmed again that there are close to 50 million tourists that visit NYC annually, making it the most visited city in America according to the tourism article, However, I also still can’t find the annual number of tourists for Manhattan in total and for each individual outer borough in total. Willminator (talk) 15:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Lights in fridges

Why do fridges have lights inside them? (And if there is a good reason for the light, why don't freezers have them?) 91.84.181.211 (talk) 19:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

To see the food. Frozen food is less likely to spill, in general, so there is less need for illumination. 64.134.157.164 (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

In my experience, freezers are either compartments at the top of a fridge that aren't big enough for anything to get lost it, have drawers that pull out so you can see what's in them using the light in your ceiling, or open at the top so, again, you can use the light in your ceiling. Fridges usually have shelves, which means things are usually in the shadow of the shelf above. I'm not really sure why fridges have shelves while freezers have drawers (and, of course, there are exceptions to both), but I guess it has something to do with the types of food you put in them. Food that goes in freezers tends to be square and easy to pack close and fill your freezer very full (which, incidentally, makes it more efficient since there isn't as much cold air to escape when you open the door). Food that goes in fridges tends to be odd shapes that wouldn't really work in drawers. Also, you get things out of fridges more often and drawers are much slower. --Tango (talk) 19:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

A freezer light would often be quite useful, and it seems odd they don't have them. Sometimes frozen food is wrapped in freezer paper with pencil writing identifying it, and it is a pain to take packages out to get enough light to see what the label says, or to view the contents of a clear plastic bag. Edison (talk) 20:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Many fridge-freezer units nowadays have lights in both compartments. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Our GE freezer in NY has a light in it, but our one in Greenwich does not last I check (or maybe it does, but no one here remembers). I guess some have them and some do not. I think it has to do with how deep the freezer is. So that if you have one where the back doesn't go very far back there's no light whereas one that does go far back does have a light. Of course I could be completely wrong. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 11 Tishrei 5772 21:11, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The light in our fridge burned out. We replaced it but it burned out again shortly after. Instead of going through bulbs every couple months or spending several hundred dollars on a new fridge, we've learned to live without it. So, I can tell you from years of experience that having a light is incredibly handy. When we open our fridge, our body is now in the open doorway and blocking most of the ambient light from the room. So it would be nice to have a light in there. Dismas| 02:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

You might be able to replace that with an LED. I was at the hardware store the other day and noticed that many small lightbulbs were also available as LEDs. (This was less than helpful to me, as I was trying to find a replacement bulb for my lava lamp.) APL (talk) 06:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Another reason is that an incandescent light in the freezer might tend to implode, due to sudden changes in temperature, and might tend to thaw out nearby food, as well. Fluorescent lights don't work well at freezer temperatures. I'm not sure about LEDs. Do they work at such low temps ? If so, we may soon see them in freezers. StuRat (talk) 02:42, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

We've placed an adhesive backed, battery powered, LED light -- of the sort advertised as a closet light -- in our deep freeze. I was skeptical that the cold batteries would put out enough power, but it has been working fine. -- 110.49.225.244 (talk) 07:58, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

For experts in magic

is there a magic trick so secret and so good that no other magician is able to duplicate it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.1 (talk) 23:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Check out here (go down to #1). Apparently, this is a card trick known by exactly two people (the man who invented it, and the man he taught) and no one has figured out how they do it. --Jayron32 00:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sceptical of some of the claims in the article though. My impression is most of the higher level magicians (i.e. those who are most likely to be able to replicate it), stealing magic tricks isn't as common as the article suggests, and even if they are resonably sure how it is done, they often aren't going to reveal they know. Nil Einne (talk) 08:03, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

October 10

Articles that link to an image

I'm not sure the best place to ask about this. I went into the image of "Young Bekie" in Ballad#Classification. In the File links section it says No pages on the English Misplaced Pages link to this file. Shouldn't it say that Ballad links to it? SlightSmile 02:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Hm, weird. But, you're right; allow me to point you to Misplaced Pages:Help desk. Comet Tuttle (talk) 02:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

While CT is right it's better to ask this question at the help desk, the reason it was happening is because the article was using a redirect rather then the file itself. The file was renamed in March this year but the usage in the article was not changed. I have modified the article to use the new name so it now shows up. Nil Einne (talk) 15:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Lack of beef hot dogs in Israel

So I have a simple question no Israeli has been able to answer for me as of yet. Why is it that there is not one beef hot dog in the whole State of Israel? I know the beef isn't very good oftentimes, but it's no reason to have only chicken and turkey dogs. So why are there no beef dogs there? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 07:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

See ... there are kosher beef hot dogs in Israel it seems. Collect (talk) 08:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering about any beef hotdogs really regardless of whether they have kashrut certification. Kashrut certification's not as important as it used to be. What? There are? O_O Haven't seen those before, though I am familiar with the brand. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 15:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Careful, Collect, or you'll get your spelling of kosher "corrected" (scare quotes very much intended) by the OP. --Viennese Waltz 09:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

VW—SWMFP did not specify a kashrut status. Kashrut status was only introduced in a response. Kashrut status was not specified in the posted question. Obviously there is a difference between a kasher hot dog and a non-kasher hot dog, but this doesn't seem to be the essence of this question. Bus stop (talk) 11:30, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

A kosher beef hot dog is a "beef hot dog." (In the US, "Hebrew National" is a major producer of hot dogs.) I sued the term because it is the term found in the source I gave. Cheers, but the question posed was answered. Collect (talk) 12:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I mostly purchase Abele and Heymann's here which not only complies with the laws of kashrut, but is also certified glatt (something that Hebrew National lacks). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 15:30, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, if I checked carefully enough, the source refers to kosher style hot dogs. But I guess, why quibble? Bus stop (talk) 12:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The Tirat Tzvi sausages referred to in the chowhound source are made on Kibbutz Tirat Zvi and are widely available in Israel and in kosher shops in many other countries. --Dweller (talk) 12:32, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Widely available? How come I have never seen them anywhere in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, up north in Nahariyya or elsewhere? Believe me I liked hard for those three precious letters that make up the word for beef (בקר)and never had any luck. My Israeli girlfriend has not seen such frankfurters in Israel and none of my Israeli dig supervisors knew of them. Why, I wonder? O_O Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 15:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Look for the "Tiv" brand. Personally, I've not seen any Tiv sausages that'd satisfy anyone larger than Mrs Pepperpot, but I doubt I've seen the full range.--Dweller (talk) 16:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

How can you miss'em? They're so brightly packaged, lol. :p Well I will confess that I saw packaged hot dogs of some sort that, as you said, look tiny, and didn't say (עוף - chicken in this context or הוד - Turkey, technically Indian, but it's a long story (Hebrew term for turkey = תרנגול הודו - Indian Rooster)), but they were in a bologna container looking thing and I couldn't read what it said, so I assumed it just said lamb (which I do not know the word for). I don't get why chicken dogs are (apparently) so popular in Israel. I know that the beef is typically not so good in Israel, but still. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 16:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Lamb is keves, kaf, vet, sin (I have no Hebrew font). --Dweller (talk) 09:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, now I know what to avoid. Thanks! :D If these wieners do exist I must be on the look out then next time. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 13 Tishrei 5772 21:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Another sausage, bologna, and its availability

So here's another sausage-related question. I have also had trouble finding bologna in Israel (by which I mean no luck). I will confess that I don't know the word for it in Hebrew and my gf does not. Is there bologna available in Israel? (Quick bit of advice: Looking up bologna and Israel or baloney and Israel on Google leads to flights between the Italian city as well as various anti-Israel things, respectively.) So is this noble fatty sausage available in the State of Israel? I do realise that it might also have a different name among Israelis (which I also don't know). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 16:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Oscar Mayer? Clarityfiend (talk) 22:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Ha, nope, they don't sell Oscar Meyer there afair. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 12 Tishrei 5772 23:30, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Are there no Italian specialty food stores? You could surely also order mail order, no? Is kosher substitue for normally pork items an industry there? It is funny, I almost never eat anything but kosher beef franks here in the US. Love Nathan's. μηδείς (talk) 04:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Israel has an import tariff of 33%; I am not mail ordering jack. :p Beef bologna is the most common in the US I believe and that's what I'm after. They do have pork in Isael; heck, there's a pork factory (where they manufacture porks, not pigs, porks) right next to the Old Central Bus Station (with its crummy mall) Try the brand up above if you can find it; you'll be in heaven. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 13 Tishrei 5772 21:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

You tend to get shops like that in places where there are lots of Italian expats, like America. I'm not sure there are too many Italians in Israel. The Jewish population of Italy today (never mind Israel) is just 45,000, according to our article. By comparison, the Italian-descent population of America is 17,800,000, according to this article. --Dweller (talk) 09:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, Bologna sausage, despite its name is an American thing, not really Italian at all. Bologna may be modeled after mortadella, which is Italian, but you won't find much bologna in Italy, and perhaps not in Israel either, since the proportion of Israel's population that originated in the United States is relatively small. If it is to be found, you might find it in stores catering to American-Israelis, if there are such stores. Marco polo (talk) 17:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, well Israel has a lot of US influence so lots of stuff caters to Americanised Israelis, but the thing is I am now wondering if there isn't some equivalent thing in Israel. I wonder about the pastrami possibly. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 13 Tishrei 5772 21:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

You did read the link above which was provided for the sausage/frankfrutter thing but was discussing delis and mentions pastrami right? Nil Einne (talk) 23:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I skimmed looking for stuff about hot dogs. Other than that, not very closely. I know that you can find pastrami in Israel, but I don't really know what a pastrami is other than a type of sausage (I will look it up when I have the time.). :( Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 14 Tishrei 5772 00:11, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Would you have to pay that tariff on a small carepackage of meat sent as a gift? Or a book for that matter? And how much does it cost to pay the mail inspectors? μηδείς (talk) 03:02, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

You pay for any taxeable item. I've sent my gf gifts (including The Great Gatsby) before and there was a 33% tariff. You only don't pay on tariff-exempt items and prohibited items. Meat might be prohibited actually; I am not sure I remember. Ask the Interior Ministry that last question. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 15 Tishrei 5772 04:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

1906 NYT articles

Yes, they are online. However, the link changes every time for them; let's say from 1906 Florida hurricane, "104 Men Drowned on Florida Houseboat". The current link would be , but it'll change to another link later. Example page for a preview (not the PDF itself): . I want a permanent link for it. Thanks! HurricaneFan25 14:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Email Martin Nisenholtz digitalsvp at nytimes dot com 67.6.175.132 (talk) 02:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

EU highe education funding

Is there a good source of information regarding the public funding of higher education in EU countries? I am particularly interested in knowing which countries provide public funding for masters course fees, I understand Denmark does for one, are there many? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.38.22 (talk) 15:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Just as a general suggestion, it may help if you clarify your question since I suspect it's more poorly phrased then you realise. I believe most EU countries provide some funding for universities and some of this will usually go towards making masters course fees lower. This includes places like the UKEngland where there's usually a lot of concern about the rising cost of university including I think postgraduate study . (In other words, the answer probably includes most EU countries which I admit isn't a great answer in itself.) However it sounds like what you're looking for is countries which fund the fees close to the entirety so there are no fees (or very little) for the person taking the course, at least if they're local students. Nil Einne (talk) 16:22, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I mean countries where the public funding covers the entire cost of a taught masters course, so no money is paid to the institution of higher education by the enrolling student. Per EU regulations this grant is not dependant on the nationality of the student, as long as they are from an EU member state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.38.22 (talk) 19:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

There is an exception to the above, which is that English students have to pay additional fees in Scottish Universities. I understand that this is being challenged in the European courts, but the UK government believes that this is an internal UK funding matter -- Q Chris (talk) 09:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not an exception, which is how the Scots get away with it. If it was national discrimination it would be clear cut, but since we are all British, it is an issue of residency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.38.22 (talk) 23:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

This question have been asked before: . Norway, though not an EU country, has free higher education, and I think this still applies to all foreigners (there has been some debate on this recently). Most higher education is in Norwegian, but there are some programs in English. If you are interested, the web page of the University of Oslo, the country's largest university, is probably as good a place as any to start looking. Jørgen (talk) 20:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The OP has it right when he says "public funding". "Free" is not true, unless Norway is only taxing non-Norwegians. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Free 2.Obtainable without any payment. Example: The government provides free health care. (). The point is that it is free at the point of use. Interestingly enough, you made the same pedantic point (which does not at all help in answering the question) in the previous discussion that I linked to. Jørgen (talk) 07:11, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not a pedantic point, it's the point that those who think it's "free" are deluding themselves. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:48, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

For people coming from outside that country it is effectively is free though. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

October 11

call center agents

how much is the average income of a callcenter agent in the US? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.128 (talk) 00:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

That will vary wildly depending on the department, the company, and the industry. As an example, when I worked for CompanyA as a call center tech support agent, starting pay was 12/hr. The same call center's customer support department started at 9.50/hr, while sales started at 22/hr. When I went to CompanyB to do essentially the same tech support, they started at 28/hr. So, depending on what kind of answer you are looking for, some additional specifics might be useful. _ennasis @ 00:57, 13 Tishrei 5772 / 00:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I never saw anything near most of those figures when I worked in a call center. I took a part time seasonal job in a call center that eventually became full time. I was paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $9-10/hour to start and didn't make too much more than that in my time there. I was doing sales of gifts and moved on to more customer service. Dismas| 01:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Are there callcenter agents in the US? I thought they were all re-locate to the Philippines ... Wikiweek (talk) 08:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Many call center jobs have been outsourced to various countries including the Philippines, India, etc. But not all of them. Dismas| 00:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The stereotype in the US is that 'all' American call centres have been outsourced to India. Sometimes you'll hear of an American company bringing call center operations back; here's the Delta Airlines story, for example. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:48, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Pythagorean Theorem

Recently I have found something very interesting about the Pythagorean triples and I have no information whether similar studies already exist. I could not find information in Misplaced Pages, as well. Briefly this is the following:

Theorem “Pythagoras – 3D” (name given by me)

The sum of the volumes of the three cubes with edges equal to the sides of a triangle, where it’s side lengths are in ratio 3 : 4 : 5 is equal to the volume of a cube with edge equal to the semi perimeter of the triangle. a³ + b³ + c³ = p³, where p = ½ (a + b + c) Furthermore: All these triangles are straight angle triangles e. g.〖 a〗^2+b^2=c^2, as 3^2+4^2=5^2 and the Pythagorean equation can be written as: 3²k + 4²k = 5²k where k is any positive number. If √k is an integer √k = 1, 2, 3 … ∞, e.g. whole number, these all are straight angle triangles e.g. Pythagorean triangles measuring their sides with the integers of the first primitive Pythagorean triple (3, 4, 5) and its generated derivates. Similarly the above equation for cubes can be written as 3³k + 4³k + 5³k = 6³k where k is any positive number. If ³√k is an integer ³√k = 1, 2, 3 … ∞, e.g. a whole number, these cubes are all set of four cubes measuring their edges with integers (whole numbers), that are representing the first primitive Pythagorean triple (3, 4, 5) and its generated non primitive derivates, where the sum of the volumes of the three small cubes is equal to the volume of the largest one and there are no more such cubes, to represent other primitive or non primitive Pythagorean triples or any other combination of four natural numbers!

If k = 1, then 3³ + 4³ + 5³ = 6³!!!

Reverse Theorem

Any cube with edge length m can be divided in three cubes with edge lengths 3/6m; 4/6m and 5/6m e. g.

m³ = (3/6m) ³ + (4/6m) ³ + (5/6m) ³

If m is an integer, divisible by 6, the three small cubes are measuring their edges also with integers (whole numbers) that can be divided by 3, 4 and 5 accordingly. If m = ³√k, then the cubes equation can be written in the same form, as above: 6³k = 3³k + 4³k + 5³k.

If this is still not published by anybody I would like to publish it for discussion. Please tell me how! Regards. Michael Ivanov (talk) 07:16, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you aware we have a Mathematics Reference Desk here? I venture that the good folks there could tell you whether you've discovered something new or not, and if so, how to go about publishing it. -- Jack of Oz 09:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid the answer is that he's discovered an extremely simple specific case to something for which the general case has been well understood for centuries. Not even remotely publishable. Unfortunately, multiplying both sides of an equation by a constant is rather simple algebra, and not an amazing insight into mathematics. Sorry to burst your bubble. i kan reed (talk) 14:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

You don't explain how you found the identities that you state. A mathematician will ask whether you can prove what you state. There are an infinite number of Pythagorean triples (see article), not just enlargements of the example (3, 4, 5), so have you proven your statements for all or only some of them? Your claim that there is no "other combination of four natural numbers" that satisfies your cubic equation needs close attention; how is this known? If you clarify those issues you may consider extending the Pythagorean relationship to yet higher dimensions than 3D. I think the value of what you are doing is not so much a discovery of a significant theorem as posing an interesting exam question. There are language errors in your post (==> is how to correct them): where it's side ==> where its side, semi perimeter ==> semiperimeter, straight angle ==> right angle (in 2 places), √k = 1, 2, 3 … ∞, e.g. whole number ==> √k = 1, 2, 3 …, i.e. a whole number, e.g. Pythagorean triangles ==> i.e. Pythagorean triangles, ³√k = 1, 2, 3 … ∞, e.g. a whole number ==> ³√k = 1, 2, 3 …, i.e. a whole number, cubes are all set ==> cubes are all sets, edge lengths 3/6m; 4/6m and 5/6m e. g. ==> edge lengths 3/6m; 4/6m and 5/6m i.e. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

You might also wish to read Plato's_number#Interpretations. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 09:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Michael, by stating "... and there are no more such cubes, to represent other primitive or non primitive Pythagorean triples or any other combination of four natural numbers!", are you claiming that if a + b + c = d for any ordered 4‑tuple (a, b, c, d), then it's primitive is (3, 4, 5, 6)? If so, then (1, 6, 8, 9) is a counterexample. -- ToE 01:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Sherlock Holmes and tobacco usage

Putting aside the cocaine for the moment, throughout the Sherlock Holmes stories, we find that Holmes is fond of attributing his powers of deduction to the time spent devoted to contemplation of the problem at hand while engaging in long smoking sessions with his pipe. Can anyone talk about the type of tobacco he smoked and what benefits it might have offered? I recall reading a few years back that researchers had found that tobacco consumption (possibly nicotine itself) conferred short-term cognitive benefits, probably in the area of attention. Finally, what difference, if any, would there be between the type of tobacco Holmes smoked then as opposed to the kind found today? Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 07:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I realize this is unsourced and less than helpful, but I've long thought that smoking, especially taking a "smoke break" where one goes out to calmly smoke while staring off into space, can be vaguely akin to mediation. Not that I condone smoking or partake in it myself. But I've long watched others "take a break" and have a smoke, during which they pensively consider the larger implications of whatever they had been overly-focused upon. Pfly (talk) 07:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

As for what type Holmes smoked, go to this page and search for "black shag" for a description. Deor (talk) 11:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Our article on nicotine#Psychoactive effects touches on possible (short-term) benefits to concentration and memory, along with a discussion of other psychological effects. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

How is prostitution defined, when it's illegal?

Many activities of normal couples - like buying a gift, helping your partner find a job - could be construe as payment for sex, so how do some governments prohibit prostitution without interfering with behavior considered normal? Is there an obvious place to draw a line? Wikiweek (talk) 08:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact that there is no "partnership" relationship between prostitute and client is probably significant - the "relationship" is purely sex for payment. Roger (talk) 08:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

In the UK, prosititution itself is not illegal; however: "a number of related activities, including soliciting in a public place, kerb crawling, owning a brothel, pimping and pandering, are crimes." (Prostitution in the UK) and these are presumably easier to tie down. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 08:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

They do not have to define it precisely. They simply do not interfere with behaviour which is considered normal in their community and go after undesirable behaviour. In the UK and Spain that's for example minors soliciting in public places, some brothels, and violence from pimps against their sex workers. 88.11.244.183 (talk) 19:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

For info, under 18s involved in prostitution are regarded as victims of child abuse in the UK, not just if they are soliciting. The general age of consent is 16 but adults in a position of trust aren't allowed to exploit 16-18s. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The Ohio Revised Code defines "prostitute" as one who: "promiscuously engages in sexual activity for hire, regardless of whether the hire is paid to the prostitute or to another." That would seem to exclude dating. I'm sure there has been case law regarding what exactly fits under that description, but the annotated version of the code does not seem to be available online. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The OP may find Compensated dating relevant. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Houses towed by cows on QI?

Hi - did anyone see that episode? Largish buildings being dragged across meadows by teams of cows? Can anyone tell me where that's practiced? Ta Adambrowne666 (talk) 08:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Chiloe, in Chile - http://www.comedy.co.uk/guide/tv/qi/episodes/8/9/ . Pictures here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

And the towing is done by oxen. -- 110.49.225.244 (talk) 12:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Oxen being "Cows strapped to something for towing purposes" --Jayron32 12:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Not usually. Oxen: "Oxen are commonly castrated adult male cattle..." Cows are the ones that give milk. Rmhermen (talk) 13:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

See wether. EDIT - Bizarrely, I could have sworn my English teacher told me it referred to bulls. I shall leave this mistake here. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

"Cow" and "cows" are very commonly used as synonyms for "cattle" of all genders and gonad status regardless of such usage being pedantically incorrect. While, pedantically, the word "cow" only refers to a female cattle, many people use the term to refer to cattle and/or bovines in general. --Jayron32 13:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Nothing more pedantic about correcting someone on this then correcting someone who calls all humans, regardless of gender, women. Googlemeister (talk) 15:11, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

No, but people do often use the word "man" to refer to humanity in general, i.e. "mankind", etc. It is fairly common, linguisticly, to use one of the genders to also refer to the entire species, both male and female. This is not "wrong", it just is. --Jayron32 17:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Are there any women here? --Dweller (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Who threw that?!-- Obsidi♠n Soul 15:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, all - esp. for the first answer. And yes, I'm guilty of using 'cows' to mean 'cattle'; I wonder how many species are referred to generically by their female form? - Cows - Chooks - Ducks... Adambrowne666 (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Cows is fairly common, but it seems less common for people who are actively involved in raising cattle to refer to their herd as cows unless it is a dairy farm (where they all are truly cows). I don't know what a chook is, but female ducks are called hens, not ducks. Googlemeister (talk) 20:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

No, 'duck' as limited to female is quite common, especially among those who spend much time around them. From duck: "some people use "duck" specifically for adult females and "drake" for adult males". Our article does mention 'hen' as an alternative, But duck=female member Anatidae is perfectly cromulent. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I was told once that waitstaff are occasionally referred to collectively as "waitresses", but I have never heard it used that way myself. —Akrabbim 19:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

If all the wait staff in a certain establishment were female, it would be odd not to refer to them collectively as "waitresses". Likewise, "waiters" for an all-male establishment. But what's the protocol when there's a mixture? - I suggest we wait and see. But not too long, I gotta get back to work soon.  :) -- Jack of Oz 20:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

What about nurses? Also, slightly different, but pigs are referred to by the name of the young of their species, and not the adult male or females. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:13, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

My spouse was once in the catering business. Waiters and waitresses as a group were called the "servers" or "waiters"; the term "wait staff" included the head waiter(s) and bar staff. I can't claim this is a general division of terms, but it was the case in one establishment in Canada. Bielle (talk) 23:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard of a wild sow, and thus I conclude all wild boars are gay. Peacocks are questionable.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 23:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm old enough to sometimes accidentally refer to flight attendants as stewardesses... Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

@Obsidian Soul: Peacocks have peahens, and together they are peafowl, which proves nothing except that the language is accommodating. Bielle (talk) 01:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't question my gaydar! -- Obsidi♠n Soul 00:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow, the image of a peacock having gay avian sex with another peacock - all those brilliant feathers being ruffled and rustled. Maybe this is where they got the idea for the rainbow flag. Or not. -- Jack of Oz 01:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Shaving, polishing the shoes, and marching in the army

Why do armies have policies regarding shaving, polishing shoes, and marching (in the sense of a uniformed walk)? Marching, at least, could be seen as a training of discipline. But none of these elements has any implications for real combat. Shaving could be substituted by a stubble, cut with a manual hair trimmer, which is a minimalist approach to keeping your hair short, while on deployment. Wikiweek (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Polishing shoes is most likely a matter of tradition, and to enforce taking pride in your uniform and position. Shaving is probably drawn from attempting to strip the individuality from soldiers and turning them into part of the unit. Facial hair would allow soldiers to be unique, even if kept to a particular style. Facial hair can also cause problems in the event of using a gas mask, where it prevents an air-tight seal. TheGrimme (talk) 20:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Militaries are inherently conservative institutions. (The American military was the same institution under the Continental Congress, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution of the United States of America.) They inculcate the military mindset. Matters like discipline regarding hygiene, dress and parade are essentially spiritual. That is, they orient the mind towards traditional values. This should not be surprising in an essentially altruistic and masculine profession. Even ;less so when one considers the need to inculcate draftees. μηδείς (talk) 20:28, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Esprit de corps. Neutrality 20:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Note that not all armies require this. The Spanish Legion can wear beards. See here:

88.11.244.183 (talk) 22:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

See also Facial hair in the military. Note that beards can also interfere with the efficacy of gas masks. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:47, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Keeping your gun clean is an essential part of being a soldier if you want to be able to shoot people. The general requirement from cleanliness and order partly stems from the need to maintain kit and equipment. As Medeis mentions, there is also the importance in shaping the military mindset, which is why restrictions on hair etc are usually stricter for new recruits. Also if you have large numbers of men living in close quarters, who may be required to pack up and move at short notice, then it's essential to keep good order. Many people believe that if you let people be lax on small things, they will be equally lax on bigger things. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The US TV Miniseries Generation Kill provides interesting observations here. An elite unit is allowed to grow moustaches, but the sergeant major vigorously polices the limits of the "grooming standards" prior to, and during lulls in, combat operations. The allowance of facial hair sets the elite apart, links to their willingness to conform in all other aspects, but also recognises that the enlisted men are expected to be adaptable and self-motivated. When "conventional" combat operations end, the sergeant major again begins to brutalise men about facial hair grooming standards: as a way to make work, vent masculine social tension, and to provide an informal object of hatred for the enlisted men. Facial hair grooming standards in Generation Kill are a complex way for the armed forces, as an institution, to control men—not simply by restricting them, but by giving them straw men to hate. 60.242.186.80 (talk) 09:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

On the facial hair,I seem to remember reading that in the British navy,men were not permitted to grow a moustache without a beard,except if you were Maltese. Never quite understood what special exemption they had... Lemon martini (talk) 14:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The 19th century Royal Navy regulations are here - Royal Marines are mentioned (moustaches only for them) but not Maltese. In the British Army, beards are forbidden except for Pioneer Sargeants and members of the Royal Family. Alansplodge (talk) 16:42, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Me again. I found your reference to the Maltese but it appears to be the other way round: (regarding the ban on moustaches) "except by non-continuous service Officers' Steward, Officers' Cook and Cook (O) ratings (excluding Maltese), who may wear their beards and moustaches, or moustaches only, or be clean-shaven as each may elect." Queen's Regulations & Admiralty Instructions 1953. So stewards and cooks could choose to wear a moustache, unless they're Maltese (who I imagine were rather further down the pecking order). Alansplodge (talk) 17:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

shaving=gasmask fits airtight. boot=polished means subtle and watertight. marching=working a a co-ordinated team. problem solved! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.7.240.144 (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Leather boots, when repeatedly polished with a good shoe polish and/or shoe wax, will keep water out for at least a day or two. Sjö (talk) 13:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

In olden times, an impressive looking army, marching in unison with polished boots, might impress and scare the enemy. These days, however, most enemies won't be very impressed by such theatrics. Furthermore, militaries can go overboard on the "fuss and feathers" and forget about what they are there for. Battle-hardened veterans returning from heavy combat may well sneer at raw recruits who still think polished buttons are important. StuRat (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Basketball team 1980-1981

How can I get articles,pictures of a student on the basketball team at Shoreland Lutheran High in Somers, WI? My son will be 50 next year and I would like to recover some articles written about him on the Basketball team 1980-1981> Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.41.40.215 (talk) 20:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps ask the school library if they have copies of the yearbooks for those years? Some material about your son may appear in the yearbook. Neutrality 20:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd check out the local newspaper (the smaller, the better). The local library might have it on microfilm. You might have to look through the local sports page for each day. StuRat (talk) 19:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Edible grapes and wine grapes

I have noticed that grapes that you would buy from the supermarket are often not the same variety as those that are used to make wine. Little packets of grapes you might find next to the sandwiches (at least common in Europe) are often Thompson grapes and maybe a few others, but I have never seen, for example, Riesling grapes or Pinot noir. Is there any reason for this? Are Riesling grapes not as nice to eat but make nice wine, whilst Thompson grapes make poor wine but are nicer to eat? 86.150.21.206 (talk) 22:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

My father used to make wine from grapes that he grew. I've tried them and they're not as tasty as the grapes that you'd get at a grocer. Though that's an opinion, so see Wine grape#Table and wine grapes. Dismas| 23:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Thomson Seedless are specifically bred for table use but are the same species as Pinot and Riesling. In America, we sometimes get Concord or Scuppernong (but more often for jelly) which are completely different species. See also List of grape varieties. Rmhermen (talk) 00:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

This is true in most fermentable fruits. The apples best used in cider are certainly not the ones you'd go for eating outright, and vis versa. If there's an exception to this, please let me know. Shadowjams (talk) 07:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Bananas ? StuRat (talk) 19:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

It's largely about sugar. When grapes are fermented, almost all of the sugar in them is converted into alcohol. Sugar suppresses the sensation of sourness and bitterness, so grapes that are pleasingly tart and flavorful when eaten raw give rise to wine that is obnoxiously sour. Grapes that are good for wine are generally too sugary to be interesting when eaten raw. Looie496 (talk) 15:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd think super sweet grapes might go over well with kids used to candy. StuRat (talk) 19:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

October 12

song in youtube video at 8:24

(not a music video, just background music). 88.11.244.183 (talk) 00:40, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

And what reference would you like, sir? --Lgriot (talk) 08:03, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The name of the song? Or better, is there some computer program which could analyze audio and tell what song is playing? 88.11.244.183 (talk) 11:05, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Shazam! Shadowjams (talk) 20:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Prisioners numbers

How many prisioners from Palestine and other countries does Isreal currently hold? And also how many prisioners does Palestine and its cohorts hold from Isreal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OttiesMom (talk • contribs) 02:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Our article 'Palestinian prisoners in Israel' says there are currently 7,000. I cannot find any numbers for the amount of Israeli prisoners held by the Palestinians, but I believe there is one soldier, at least (Gilad Shalit), as they are usually sent back during the Israeli prisoner exchanges. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

There are eight listed here (including Shalit), but that list is only of soldiers. We don't seem to have a similar list of civilians; I don't know if that is because there aren't any. --Dweller (talk) 09:22, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

'Missing In Action' does not necessarily mean 'taken prisoner', and I really doubt many of them still are prisoners, even if they were in the first place, as they date back to the 70s. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Our article that mentions 7,000 is out of date (it says 2010). The BBC news coverage states there are currently 5,000 Palestinians in Israelis prisons, a figure that is shortly to reduce to 4,000, if/when the Shalit deal goes through. () --Dweller (talk) 10:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm amazed at the exchange rate 1:1,000. Aside from that, what does this figure of 5,000 mean? Are they terrorists? Political prisoners? Common criminals? Who counts towards it? 88.11.244.183 (talk) 11:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The article linked above says "There are about 5,000 Palestinians held by Israel - some of whom have been convicted of serious crimes, but others are being held without charge." Palestinian prisoners in Israel has more info. The vast majority are serving prison sentences. However it's hard to classify some of them without taking sides in the conflict. Some of those convicted of crimes were fighting against the Israeli occupation, so from a pro-Palestinian perspective they're not really criminals, although from an Israeli perspective they're terrorists. A lot are unambiguously criminals and a small number were detained without trial for security reasons. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

New version of that story now says 6,000 prisoners, but attributes the figure to Hamas. () I guess it's not just Misplaced Pages that has sourcing and POV issues. --Dweller (talk) 13:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I would be a little surprised if there aren't any Israeli citizens in Palestinian prisons. What happens when an Israeli commits a common crime in the Palestinian West Bank? Lots of Israelis including Israeli Arabs spend time in the West Bank and I would be shocked if none were caught committing any crimes like theft or even something like domestic violence. --Daniel 17:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Surprise! Per Article 2 Section 1 of the Gaza-Jericho Agreement, the Palestinian Authority has no jurisdiction over criminal offenses committed by Israelis within its territory. This is an example of extraterritoriality. So, the Palestinian Authority has no legal authority to imprison Israelis. Marco polo (talk) 19:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

So basically, Israelis can go to Palestine and steal or murder or whatever and completely get away with it? --70.248.222.85 (talk) 22:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you read the Gaza-Jericho agreement that Marco polo linked to? If an Israeli commits a crime in the territories, the responding Palestinian Police official must immediately alert Israeli authorities, and may hold the suspect at the scene until said authorities arrive. Buddy431 (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

In practice the Israeli military occupying Palestine quietly watches when the settlers attack Palestinians, and often does little to stop it. Public awareness (talk) 02:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

How can Israel make such a deal? At a rate of 1 to 1000, Palestinians would have to kidnap just half a dozen Israelis to get all their prisoners out of prison. Quest09 (talk) 23:51, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't the Palestinian Authority that kidnapped Gilad Shalit. If the Palestinian Authority were to begin kidnapping Israelis, its agreements with the Israeli government would be violated, and Israel would cease to observe them as well. No doubt, Israel would intervene militarily. Marco polo (talk) 01:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say the Palestinian Authority did it, but they were definitely Palestinians, from Hamas, which governs the Gaza Strip. Quest09 (talk) 12:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

You can't do a linear extrapolation, where 1 = 1000, 2 = 2000, etc. The government of Israel is firm in that hard-core killers will not be released. However, within any large group of prisoners, some will be in the prison on very firm and egregious grounds, others will be there on less firm or downright flimsy grounds. It comes down to a political decision in the end, Israel releases the 1000 least-bad prisoners (who they probably aren't that worried about anyway, plus they can always kill them later) and gain back a very high-profile army prisoner of their own. There is no relation to "Western" concepts of "justice", just realpolitik. In particular, this deal will not scale upwards, it's a one-off. Franamax (talk) 07:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe these facts are right. Israel is apparently releasing murderers too. A point that I forgot, however, is that Israel could imprison 1,000 Palestinians more for each Israeli kidnapped and then negotiate with them, so Palestinians would have to kidnap more and more in a kind of rats race. Quest09 (talk) 12:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Isn't arresting an imprisoning 1,000 Palestinian people much more effort for Israel then kidnapping one Israeli would be for the Palestinians? Googlemeister (talk) 18:23, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know. It sounds easier for the Palestinians, but when you look at the numbers you see that Israel had imprisoned many more Palestinians than Palestinians have kidnapped Israelis, specially Israeli soldiers. Quest09 (talk) 22:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

October 13

Asbestos procedure vs. mould procedure

My ~45-yr-old apartment building is about to undergo a major procedure involving cutting open a lot of walls and ceilings. The latest missive on this is that the drywall joints and the ceiling stucco contain trace amounts of asnestos, so the work had to be done under Worksafe BC procedures, which are more concerned with the workers than the eventual (possible) inhabitants. I think (and will confirm) that this comes in at the lowest end of the "high-risk procedures" category.

I'm not all that worried about the asbestos, but the project is to replace every water-pipe in the building, due to leakage problems. So there is a possibility / high probability that there will be mould behind at least some of those wallspaces. So my question is, are the procedures for removing asbestos-containing materials equal to or better than procedures for removing mould-bearing materials as far as greatest benefit to me, the person who has to live here, is concerned? Or is there extra work involved to contain mould? Franamax (talk) 03:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it's pretty much inevitable that the removal procedure will increase the short-term exposure level for anyone living there at the time. That's why many jurisdictions take the "let sleeping dogs lie" approach and just seal the asbestos in. You might do best to schedule a vacation during the removal period and leave town. Hopefully the asbestos dust and mold spores will have all settled out by the time you return. StuRat (talk) 19:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

References

I am trying to improve the Pica article, what sources are considered liable sources? I used peer reviewed articles and a published book, but what if is a website I found online. How will I know if I can post that information? Kyokoyama (talk) 05:51, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Just go ahead and use it - if there are any doubts about a source's reliability it can be discussued. See WP:BRD for guidance. I presume you are already familiar with WP:RS. Roger (talk) 07:03, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

If you are unsure about the merits of a source, you can also ask other editors of the article on the article's talk page (the effectiveness of this approach will depend heavily on how many editors have watchlisted the article). You can also find editors with more general experience in interpreting and applying our policies on reliable sources at the reliable sources noticeboard (RSN). If you post to that board links to the sources and a description of how you intend to use them in the article, they should be able to guide you. Finally, you can consult the editors at WikiProject Medicine. It looks like the project is fairly active, and they might be able to comment on the quality and reliability of any internet-based sources—just create a new section on the talk page pointing to the appropriate article talk page and/or RSN discusison(s). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

• Peer-reviewed articles are the best, with books a close second. However, those sources become even better if you can include some sort of web link for them. If the journal article is behind a paywall, then at least include a link to the paywall in the journal citation -- that makes it easier for any other Misplaced Pages readers who have access to check your sources. For books, if it's not available for free on Project Gutenberg, then I recommend linking to the book's page on http://books.google.com. --M@rēino 18:02, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Komodo Dragons

Are the Komodo Dragons from on the Islands in Indonesia the same as the Dragons that live on one of the Islands of the Galapagos? If they are, how did they get there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mpvet53 (talk • contribs) 12:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

No. By "dragons" on the Galapagos do you mean these or these? They are completely distinct species of reptile. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) No, they are not the same. Komodo Dragons are native to some islands in Indonesia. I don't know exactly which animals you are referring to as "dragons that live on one of the Islands of the Galapagos", but two prominent species of reptile on the Galápagos Islands are the Marine Iguana and the Galapagos Land Iguana and are in a totally different sub-order of the Squamata order of reptiles. One interesting point though, I recently watched the movie The Bounty and one of the sailors did describe the Marine Iguanas they saw in the Galápagos, as "Dragons". maybe that is the source of your confusion? Astronaut (talk) 12:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Not even close. The Komodo dragon is closer to the mososaurs and the Burmese python than the Galopagan iguanids. See lizard. Komodo dragons are varanids, not iguanids. μηδείς (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking for halloween costume

This halloween, for reasons best known to himself, my son wants to go dressed as some hugely muscular man, it's some phase he's going through at the moment, but at least he eats all his vegetables now, when he remembers. Once his mind is set on something like this, though, I don't think I can dissuade him, at least not before Christmas. After last year, though, I don't think something cheap and simple is going to be enough, and anything better is sadly beyond my abilities to make, so, rather than let him down in front of all his mates, I have turned to online shopping. Sure enough, soon I had found what I thought was quite suitable, but apparently they are just not big enough. Something about not being able to make a good impression on the others turning up looking as big as if he had just rolled a couple of shirts up and tucked them up his sleaves. So I turn to the collective wisdom of the wikipedia, somewhere out there must be people selling costumes that are rather more substantial. You would think with so many around this time of year, the right one would be easy to find. AME67 (talk) 15:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

What age or size is your son? (The "just not big enough" comment) --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, inb4 "What country are you in?" --Viennese Waltz 15:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm in England. He's twelve, but quite tall for his age. I expect many companies would make and/or sell costumes for a range of different ages, that is what I have seen so far shopping around, but I do not think that is the size issue he is talking about. AME67 (talk) 15:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

How about this? --TammyMoet (talk) 15:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Note that wearing a giant balloon like that could be quite uncomfortable, leaving him hot and sweaty. An alternative to a bigger costume might be to give him something to carry which appears to be heavy, like a papier-mâché boulder or safe. StuRat (talk) 19:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, a simple search on "muscle man costume" at google images provided plenty of results, including this one for kids at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Muscle-Man-Shirt-Child-Small/dp/B000I2FMQW which I assume can be bought through Amazon UK or shipped express. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

As an aside, my 4-year old nephew requested a butterfly costume as his birthday present this summer. So I got some red and black felt and cardboard, and made him the most macho pair of buterfly wings I could design. He loved them, although he explains to people you can't really fly with them. So he has requested a full butterfly costume for Halloween. His mother suggested a scary butterfly with horns and fangs, but he is insisting "No, I am a nice butterfly!" μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you should include a cocoon, so he can "come out" ? StuRat (talk) 20:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Well put, StuRat. Glad I was not misunderstood, but a shame I can't comment further. He is a beautiful and brilliant kid though. And no guarantee his interest implies an orientation. (Not only did I have a crush on Steve Austin and Jamie Sommers at his age, but also on Max.) He beats people bigger than he is up and defends his elder brother from bullies on a regular basis. It's all so exciting. μηδείς (talk) 20:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Rachel Heyhoe Flint

Hi I've been told about an illness that Rachel Heyhoe Flint had and wondered if you could direct me to what book I may find the details in. It's an joint aching, fatigue, sleepless type of illness. I am unsure of its name. Email : redacted I look forward to hearing from you Regards Claire Tozer Devon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.138.171 (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but I've had to remove your email address. We don't answer questions by email here, you have to come back here and check the page for answers. --Viennese Waltz 17:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

A quick google hasn't revealed anything about her health, but her contact details are here should you need them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Stone tool cultural association

So I'm curious, without any sort of context, what culture does this stone tool appear to be from? What culture does it look like it is associated with the most? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 15 Tishrei 5772 18:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Chatelperronian or Emirian perhaps? Marco polo (talk) 18:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Connecticut and the death penalty

So I have just read in one of those CNN emails that the swine who killed the nurse at a school my sister went to have been convicted on all 17 counts and one apparently faces the death penalty (idk about his accomplice, but can only hope it's not going to be pleasant for him). I did not realise Connecticut still has the death penalty. Maybe it's just because I don't read the Greenwich Times a lot, but how come one never hears about executions in CT? I know they had them when my dad was a kid (but he is slightly older than the State of Israel -- relative dating right there). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 15 Tishrei 5772 20:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

According to capital punishment in Connecticut, there has been only one execution in the post-Furman era. --Trovatore (talk) 20:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Or since 2005, to those who don't have a clue who or what Furman is. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Furman v. Georgia. Can't believe my pops didn't tell me about that case given how important it was (or maybe I didn't listen, who knows). Then again, trial ain't his style. Hmmm, didn't know that article existed. I will add it to the murder article as it is much better than a general capital punishment link. So this fellow gets to be lucky number 2. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 15 Tishrei 5772 20:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, quick summary: In Furman, the US Supreme Court effectively banned the death penalty in the United States as cruel and unusual punishment. That's a little oversimplified (not sure it applied to the Feds for example) but there were no executions resulting from any nuances in it. A couple years later, in Gregg v. Georgia, the court allowed the states to resume capital punishment under stricter guidelines. It took a few years for the machinery of death to ramp back up; while Gary Gilmore was executed in 1977, it was only because he had deliberately dropped his appeals. I think there was not an involuntary execution until John Spenkelink in, not sure, 1980 or so. --Trovatore (talk) 20:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the "yes" was in response to the remarks about Furman, and had nothing to do with the "lucky number 2" comment. It's not at all clear that Komisarjevsky will be number 2. As I understand it, the penalty phase of his trial has not completed, perhaps has not even begun, so he may not even be sentenced to death. If he is, he may or may not eventually be executed, and if he is executed, there may or may not be someone else before him. --Trovatore (talk) 21:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

There has been only one since 1960. --Trovatore (talk) 20:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I was actually referring to Hayes as being Number 2 (since the resumption of the death penalty in the state). Well he might just get to rot away in a prison cell; works either way. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 15 Tishrei 5772 22:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, would have paid to have read the article's table of contents first... I would have seen this: Jennifer_Petit#Capital_punishment_in_Connecticut. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 15 Tishrei 5772 20:50, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, NY has the death penalty, but unless you kill two pigs in one blow it probably won't be applied. Maybe the same with the nutmeggers?μηδείς (talk) 20:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

New York does not currently have the death penalty (see People v. LaValle). For all I know it may still be on the books, but it is unenforceable as long as that decision stands. --Trovatore (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Medeis was most likely referring to something from . Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 15 Tishrei 5772 22:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The NY law specifies that you can get the death penalty for killing one cop or two mere people. Some animals are more equal than others. μηδείς (talk) 00:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

October 14

berglas effect

anybody have any theory how this is done? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.82.128 (talk) 00:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Link to YouTube - There's a link to a video so that people don't have to do too much of their own research to answer your question. Dismas| 01:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Jacob Bronowski glasses

Did Jacob Bronowski wear fake (flat plano glass) glasses? If so, why?

In many of the scenes of The Ascent of Man they look fake, you can see undistorted reflections off of them, in others, they appear normal. Perhaps plano-concave lenses were more popular in the 70's?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ-7DmCZ-y8#t=13m30s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.32.169 (talk) 01:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

proof of my daughters birth in goroka png was apparently destroyed by fire ? where can I go now to get proof she exists as she has no birth certicate

MY DAUGHTER WAS BORN AT THE GOROKA HOSPITAL IN THE THEN TERRITORY OF PAPUA NEW GUINEA IN 1965, OVER THE YEARS' WE HAVE TRIED TO GET A BIRTH CERTIFICATE FOR HER WITHOUT SUCCESS. I HAVE TRIED CONTACTING THE HOSPITAL DIRECT AND WAS TOLD THE RECORDS WERE DESTOYED BY FIRE SOME TIME AGO

I AM HOPING SOME HOW, SOME WAY, I CAN FIND A WAY TO GET SOME SORT OF PROOF OF HER BIRTH, AS SHE HAS BEEN REFUSED

ENROLLMENT FOR HER CHILDREN INTO QLD SCHOOLS WITHOUT PROOF OF THEIR BIRTHS, AND TO GET THIS INFORMATION SHE NEED A BIRTH CERTICATE OR AT LEAST A DOCUMENT TO SAY WHERE SHE WAS BORN, AND WHO SHE IS. IT,S AMAZING BECAUSE THE DEPARTMRNT OF SOCIAL SECURITY HAD A DOCUMENT WHEN SHE CLAIMED FAMILY BENEFITS BACK IN 1984 BUT THEY CLAIM THEY DON,T HAVE THEM ANYMORE SO AS EVERYONE CAN SEE WE NEED HELP. I DO REMEMBER THE DOCTOR WHO DELIVERED MY DAUGHTER WAS MARGARET SMITH ' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.110.89 (talk) 02:05, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

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