Misplaced Pages

The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. While verifiability is a requirement for inclusion, it is not a guarantee of inclusion. Misplaced Pages has other policies and guidelines that affect inclusion (especially whether specific material is included in a specific article).

58. oppose per Maunus, Doc9871, Cwenger, and Quadell, among others. Verifiability not truth is the main thing that prevents the project from falling into a completely war. You believe that God exists? That's not. WP:V. You think that religion is a lie made by the powerful to keep the masses in check and that's the Truth? That's nice. We care about verifiability. You think that 9/11 was an inside job? You think that 9/11 conspiracy claims about the bombs were made by a shadowy branch of the government so no one would look for the real conspiracy? You think that cancer can be cured by homeopathy and acupuncture? You think that the Democrats or Republicans is the source of all evil in the world? Etc. Etc. Watering this down is not a good idea at all. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
59. Oppose per Doc9871 and others above. I think "verifiability not truth" is an important cornerstone of Misplaced Pages and is important enough to stay at the beginning of the policy for everyone to see. As JoshuaZ says above, watering this down is a bad idea. I'm open to add some elaboration about "truth" and "untruth" to some explanatory part of the rules but the main message that everyone reading this policy should see is "verifiability, not truth", not "mainly verifiability". Regards SoWhy 21:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
60. Oppose: the simple phrase "verifiability, not truth" is one of the handful of iconic phrases that define Misplaced Pages. The vast majority of editors, and virtually all readers, do not read the minutiae of our policies, nor should they have to. Simple phrases like "verifiability, not truth", "citation needed", "neutral point of view", "assume good faith", and so forth, are the memorable foundations that guide real editors in their real edits for the vast majority of the time. The 'soul' of our project is defined in those handful of words, not in the endless paragraphs of supporting text. Happy‑melon 21:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
61. Oppose. This proposal conflates two unrelated changes: (1) taking out the "not truth" part, and (2) adding wording clarifying that verifiability is a necessary but not sufficient condition for inclusion. I support the second change but not the first. We haven't yet escaped from our problems with editors who think that their beliefs are "the truth", especially on highly charged subjects such as religion and politics, and the language in this policy is important as a way to help control those problems. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

    In religion or politics one can usually find sources to state the version of the "truth" desired. So, "not truth" isn't really helping much with that, but NPOV is. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 19:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

62. Oppose. Changing the opening sentence dilutes the whole message. Every day one of us has to cope with someone saying "Never mind your sources, this is how it really is." We need to be able to point to that emphatic opening sentence in WP:V. Scolaire (talk) 22:08, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
63. I Oppose any suggestion that removes "not truth" from the lead. Such a removal undermines the foundations of an encyclopedia, that we document the world as neutrally as possible, that we don't include or own perspectives nevermind how true we think them to be. I'll acknowledge that "verifiability, not truth" is sometimes an over simplification; but that's its strength: it is simple enough so that even the most novice of editors will get it. Rami R 22:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
64. Oppose. The core phrase should stay, as it summarizes that part of the policy in a very short and distinctive way. If new editors really are confused about this phrase, a clarification as offered in the second paragraph could be useful. GermanJoe (talk) 22:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
65. Oppose - "Verifiability, not truth" is a phrase so important to this project that it justifies its current inclusion in the lead. So often have I found new editors getting the wrong end of the stick about content and writing articles based on "truth", with been unwilling to read through policies properly. I have found the "verifiability, not truth" phrase to be an important but simple way to get through the spirit of verifiability, neutrality, and the ban on original research in one go. CT Cooper · talk 22:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
66. Oppose the change to the lead but support the new section of explanation. The current lead gets straight to the point of the policy; replacing it with lawyer-talk will only confuse people. Also, I think the problem of people adding non-verified but true information is a lot more common than people adding non-true but verified information. MakeBelieveMonster (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
67. Oppose: In my opinion, the phrase "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth" is more easily comprehended and less complicated than "The initial threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability". I agree with SilkTork's comment that it is a powerful phrase and that "truth" or a similar synonym should be there to make that distinction, and with Maunus' rationale that it is important to establish that Misplaced Pages does not make any judgments or evaluations of what is true, which is why "not truth" is important. Jfgslo (talk) 23:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
68. Oppose. "Verifiability, not truth" has been the policy for over six years. It is an important principle which should be placed prominently in the policy. Many new editors do not understand the concept, and seek to add the "truth", regardless of what's verifiable.   Will Beback  talk  23:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

    If some statement about the World is not verifiable, how could the person making the statement possibly know that it is true (barring exceptional circumstances like the person being an eyewitness)? So, a solid claim for something being true about the World always implies verifiability from reliable sources. Count Iblis (talk) 00:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    Yes, but that covers only part of the equation. Editors should only add material which is verifiable, but they don't need to also prove that it's true. This comes up when an editor protests that material must be excluded because the sources, no matter how reliable generally, are wrong in this case. They may even demand that editors prove the information is correct, above and beyond the already provided sources. It's even more of an issue on topics where some people believe there is only one truth, meaning every other view is untrue. The point is that we may add sufficiently verifiable material, regardless of whether it is true or not. We can report what high quality reliable sources say even if we also have contradictory information.

    That may sound shocking or cynical, but as a project we have no way of knowing what is true. Arguments over truth are difficult to resolve to everyone's satisfaction, and often become contentious. So this text says, right up front, that we do not include or exclude information on the basis of truth.   Will Beback  talk  07:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

69. Oppose. Comments on the proposed rationale:
    • On the Background: The proposal incorrectly assumes that interpretation of "verifiability, not truth" depends on the context. It does not. In all scenarios, verifiability is the bar, while truth is not.
    • On the first Concern: This paragraph starts with a ridiculous sentence. It is totally inconceivable that from "verifiability, not truth" one can reasonably derive that verifiability guarantees inclusion. This becomes particularly ridiculous given that, as readily acknowledged in this paragraph, other policy and guidelines statements already invalidate such interpretation.
    • On the second Concern: The rationale presented in this paragraph conveys a complete lack of understanding of what truth is to Misplaced Pages—by itself, truth means nothing. Using verifiability as a standard nullifies the value of truth as an accompanying standard, and hence the phrase "verifiability, not truth". In this context, not discussing truth is the intent. Truth is discussed, as argued in the Counter Concern, only because it can reflect the conflict between ideas. This latter point is definitely not at the same fundamental level as verifiability.
    • On the third Concern: It is not introducing the concept of "truth" in the lede that is distracting and confusing, particularly for new editors. Using verifiability as a bar for determining worthiness of inclusion is /not/ a common phenomenon in a world where people primarily argue over truth. "Verifiability, not truth" is a differenting feature of Misplaced Pages. "Not truth" should be emphasized in the lede, instead of being diluted.

    A proposal purely based on unfounded concerns is worth nothing. Kxx (talk | contribs) 00:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

70. Oppose The "verifiability not truth" phrase needs to be in there and it needs to be prominent- near the start when people are still paying attention. It's succinct, it makes an important point and it makes new-ish editors like me stop and think. It certainly helped me when I started writing articles- knowing that it wasn't enough that something was "obvious" or "common knowledge" helped me avoid the pitfalls. Taking this phrase out could lead to a lot of sloppy editing.Tigerboy1966 (talk) 01:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
71. Oppose. The slogan (being "pithy and iconic") has become a rallying cornerstone of this community, and the fact that it sounds counterintuitive encourages people to think, read further, and understand the pillar and its necessity. The proposal diminshes the appeal and convolutes the readability in the policy. On its own, the word "verifiable" is ambiguous (in common language it is equivalent to "true" - hence it is so critical to distinguish those) and in practice it is also likely to change how the policy is interpreted, hampering the major issue of material that contributors think they can "personally verify" (i.e., unsourced "truth", original proofs and arguments, etc). "-not truth" is also a powerful tool for avoiding a great deal of disagreement on articles of any extremely controversial topic. The minor problem of incorrect sources is comparatively rare, and of course, should only be addressed by again finding further sources which assert that the others were incorrect (whereas downplaying "not truth" begins to open the door to trying to judge untruth by our own original expertise. I'll concede that cases can occur where all known sources are believed by most editors to be in common error - but these are likely resolveable with the first and fifth pillars).Cesiumfrog (talk) 01:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
72. Oppose. No evidence or statistics have been provided that show that the current wording causes problems for anyone but sophists and those who choose to feign ignorance of its meaning. I am not persuaded that a problem has been shown to exist. The proposer does not provide a list of editors or edits illustrating the problem. Therefore, I believe the problem is largely imaginary. That "verifiability, not truth" is a catchy phrase has been claimed to be a fault, when it is in fact a benefit. All attempts to rephrase or expound upon it are doomed, without focus on brevity and clarity of thought. The larding on of more words before it not the answer: first, the title of an article is usually not delayed by exposition, it is stated straight away, second, the explanation should flow naturally after it. This RfC is an unnecessary distraction from much more urgent matters here. In my 8000 edits I have encountered:
    • only one new editor who believed "verifiable, hence must be included", and they were educated about that by referral to WP:UNDUE and WP:NOT.
    • zero editors who believed "verifiable but untrue, and therefore not discussable"
    • most editors and even most non-Wikipedians seem to immediately "grok" the idea of "verifiability, not truth" as being comprehensible, memorable, and a useful benchmark for Misplaced Pages and encyclopedias in general. --Lexein (talk) 02:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
73. Oppose The proposal is more cumbersome and seems unnecessary. 'verifiable' is tacit in differentiating between what someone knows and what someone can prove. Everton Dasent (talk) 09:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
74. Oppose Like as the others have said (20040302 (talk) 10:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC))
75. Oppose Whereas there are legitimate concerns for this proposal, I fail to see how it would solve the perceived problem. WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV do regulate the inclusion concern, it may be more appropriate to amend these policies so to state clearly that some views (fringe theories, minority opinions amongst scholars) do not merit inclusion at all. I don't see how this would conflict with the "Verifiability not truth" concept since it is a general principle that comes with other policies in practice and not a guarantee of inclusion to whatever that has been published and I think it has always been applied that way, in most cases. The drawbacks of this proposal is that some knowledgeable editors can and might successfully argue against the inclusion of certain views on the grounds that it is wrong which they can demonstrate using their expertise and thus impose their opinion, this would be particularly the case in articles where only a handful of editors participate and where there isn't much scholarly material to begin with. When scholars do not agree, wikipedia cannot allow itself this kind of practice. I hope I did not misrepresent the proposal but that is my main concern with it, I've already seen cases where some editors cut out some verifiable material while using their knowledge to demonstrate how it is wrong, I think this change would only comfort this practice and get us into endless discussions about the details and merits of each view. Stuff can always be shown wrong if you get into the technicalities, so it is vital to keep the "Verifiability not truth" part, it is also a clear warning to readers on how to use Misplaced Pages properly i.e. even if it is cited to a rs it doesn't mean it is true. Tachfin (talk) 10:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
76. Oppose, but... I agree entirely with the view that the "Verifiability not truth" part of the existing policy is so important that this phrase should be at the very start of the article. So if the only choice is between the existing and revised versions, then I'm in favour of the existing version. On the other hand, the addition of "initial" is important; verifiability is clearly not the final threshold for inclusion. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
77. Oppose - 'verifiable, not truth' is a threshold. This is the verifiability policy, not the notability policy. It is not an 'OR clause', it is not a 'XOR clause', it is an 'AND clause' - things have to be verifiable ánd notable enough for inclusion. I believe that the 'not truth' part of the introduction is an essential part of WP:V, and that anyone who argues for all non-notable information 'but this should be included because it is verifiable' should be publicly trouted for Wikilawyering. --Dirk Beetstra 11:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
78. Oppose. V not T gets the point across quite simply. I've had to use it more than once when new editors were pushing unverifiable info that they "knew" was true. Taking out the "not truth" will make it harder to get the point across. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    I can understand your point, but there is another phrase "... Verifiability is a requirement for inclusion, it is not a guarantee of inclusion" - there to balance it. -- Wikiglobaleditor (talk) 13:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

79. Oppose - Per Coemgenus, what I was going to write is fairly similar to what he said. The way it is now is simpler to get across to newbies. Sergecross73 msg me 13:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
80. Oppose, per Coemgenus and Sergecross73 above. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    Comment It seems that a number of the editors above (Coemgenus etc.) are !voting on a different proposal; the actual proposal is not to delete "V not T", but to explain it. Uniplex (talk) 13:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    Comment - No, we just feel the explanation is unnecessary, and only complicates it's message. (Or that's my take on it, I can't speak for the other ones...) Sergecross73 msg me 14:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

81. Oppose - If any change is warranted, it's elevation of "Not Truth", not subjugation. This will, invariably, strengthen the hand of exclusionists/censors at the expense of article breadth. I might be able to live with something akin to "Not incontrovertible truth" but the concept currently resides precisely where it belongs. (P.S. I had NO idea this was under consideration until the recent mention at the top of my watchlist.) JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    Perhaps you should put this policy, and any others you care about, on your watch list... then you would know what is "under consideration" sooner. Just saying. Blueboar (talk) 13:56, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    That's just being WP:POINTy - and it's uncalled for. It was your communication strategy that was ineffective. Leaky Caldron 14:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    Leaky Caldron, please do not pour fuel on the fire. Blueboar made a good-faith effort to publicize it. Some people think it was not publicized widely enough, and they took measures to do so. We all make mistakes or overlook things, which is why WP has to be collaborative; we rely on others to fill in. So there is no point in blaming Blueboar for the original communication strategy. If you haven't followed the past few days' discussions this has become very acrimonious. JakeinJosey had a right to explain why he came to this vote several weeks after it was first announced, and that comment gives Blueboar a right to respond. Blueboar made a constructive suggestion and I do not think it was meant to be dismissive or disparaging. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

82. Oppose - Anything I say would be a repeat of what has already been said by someone else. Spidey104 14:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
83. Oppose - but with regret. (Switched from neutral) Kudos to all those (particularly Blueboar) for putting this proposal together. However I can't support it as I think the proposed section (==Assertions of truth and untruth==) is confusing - rather than clarifying the issue it complicates it (in my view needlessly). Furthermore on reading the long discussions here I feel strongly that keeping the 'not truth' phrase in line 1 is a good idea. Again while i sympathize with the motivations behind this suggestion I don't believe it is the right move--Cailil 14:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
84. Oppose. I could support the new paragraph, which reads well, but I don't want to drop the VNT wording from the lead. It's extremely valuable to have that front and centre, as others have noted. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
85. Oppose because already too easy to lob off WP:RS info for POV reasons. However, more specific language like this might be added to paragraph: Verifiability is not a guarantee of inclusion because other policies and guidelines like LIST THEM might affect how appropriate material is for the article." CarolMooreDC 17:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
86. Oppose. The original wording is brief and bluntly clear. Such bluntness is very helpful to the project. The proposed wording is not as clear. Binksternet (talk) 17:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
87. Oppose - seemed fine to me the way it was, and I definitely don't like the implication of WP:NOTE trying to WP:CREEP its way further into policy. BOZ (talk) 17:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
88. Oppose - I like the straight forward simplicity of the current wording. The new wording introduces ambiguity. Petter Bøckman (talk) 18:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
89. oppose - Just because something is verifiable does not mean that it is true. There are many cases where truth is In the eye of the beholder. Neither WP nor the editors are arbiters of truth. WP should just report what is, according to reliable sources. What is is not necessarily truth. SmittysmithIII (talk) 21:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
90. Oppose. I decided to check this out after getting the notice. Wow! Didn't realize this was such a deeply felt issue.

    So I read through it all with the intent of actually casting a vote, as I think we all should where such a core policy is concerned.

    The more I did, the more I saw a solution in search of a problem. There are some legitimate concerns, but the most frequent ones seemed to, as suggested above, rely on an assumption that this is the only editorial policy that can possibly govern content. To give some examples:

    • From Crazynas: "I think this page addresses two classes of users, Garage Band X and The Truth™er's. For Garage Band X with a listing in Podunk Daily, this proposal nullifies their ability to say see, put it on it's verifiable (the policy change nips a certain SPI argument in the bud)" I don't know how much experience with garage-band editors this reflects, but it's certainly not mine, because I would say it's unnecessary: WP:BAND would not support the inclusion of a band purely on the basis of one writeup in a local newspaper (and I believe we also used to cite regional notability not being sufficient grounds to have an article on, say, an otherwise unsigned band). I also don't see what SPI argument we're talking about ... just what does sockpuppetry have to do with this?

      As for The Truth™ers, if you really think they'd be deterred by just a slight policy tweak, or even if you think they'd be deterred at all, then I have some swampland in Florida to sell you.

    • From Short Brigade Harvester Boris: "It addresses head-on the old "it's been printed in a newspaper so it's gotta go in" argument that we hear so often". OK, it does, but, as I suggested with the more specific example above, there are other policies that can filter that sort of thing—is the newspaper reliable, is the fact relevant, is it in violation of BLP, etc. The only thing possibly sadder than an editor who thinks that "verifiability, not truth" trumps all is the editor who lets that editor get away with it.
    • From Pichpich:"It's not atypical for a newbie to be scolded about his edits and asked to read WP:V. These editors come here, conclude that Misplaced Pages doesn't care about truth and leave" Uh, it almost seems too ironic, but ... is this verifiable? Do you have something to support this? This is the sort of thing we put {{fact}} on in articles. As such, we should not be relying on it to make policy decisions.

    I do see one legitimate concern: that, as worded, the policy suggests we must keep inaccurate information in articles even when it is very obvious that the sources are wrong (we call them reliable sources, not infallible sources, after all. I have had personal experience with this in writing NRHP articles, where the nomination form may be several decades old and out of date, or just get things like the name or number of a road or the side of a house confused. In many cases other information in the article (like a contemporary photo) or linked to from it (like the GeoLinks) will be enough to support the correct information. I'm hardly suggesting something like this will work in every case, but I am suggesting that a global policy change is not yet needed. Perhaps we need a subpage on what to do when a reliable source is clearly wrong or out of date and yet no other source can be found. Daniel Case (talk) 21:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

91. Oppose VnT was an easy way of explaining what verifiability was. It also meant that Misplaced Pages-normal views did not simply come into being as verfiability means that a piece of information can still be included even if a large number of interested editors really dislike the piece of information. JASpencer (talk) 22:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

    Just want to be sure you are aware that the proposal does not remove VnT from the policy... The proposal includes it in the second part. If this does not change your opinion, no problem... it just sounds like you were misunderstanding what the proposal was saying. Blueboar (talk) 22:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

92. Oppose, this looks like rewording a policy to accomplish UNDUE POV via attribution, similar to what was seen years ago in the failed ATTRIBUTION debate (note involvement there of SlimVirgin and SIRubenstein). Often rewording to present the information as opinion rather than fact can resolve issues of verifiable but potentially untrue information. This view holds that if we attribute verifiably untrue information, even in the face of higher quality sources that reveal the information to be false, then we can still include the information-- hence accomplishing POV via attribution. SlimVirgin had another approach to this several years ago, that was defeated.

    This (data not supported by higher quality sources that is likely false but is attributed to an advocate) is precisely what is occurring at an article principally authored by SlimVirgin, Female genital manipulation, with various sourced claims in the article attributed to an advocate against female circumcision that are not backed by any higher quality medical source, some that appear to be outlandish claims put forward by the advocate to further a POV. (I don't mean to say anyone should support female circumcision, but we can let the accurate medical facts speak for themselves and it really isn't necessary to include potentially false and sensationalized misinformation, and this opinion-- which is likely false-- doesn't belong in the article just because an advocate says it's so.)

    This looks to me like a backdoor approach to accomplish what the ATTRIBUTION debate of years ago could not, and it will allow us to POV articles as long as we attribute undue weight and false statements and opinions to the authors and advocates who make such claims, even when they are UNDUE, even when they accomplish POV, even when they are verifiably untrue.

    See the FAC for Female genital manipulation, objections that it overattributed statements in order to include false data, and particularly the talk page at that FAC, and notice the attributed claim in the article that 10% of women who undergo female circumcision die from it. When asked for a medical source to back that claim, and when it was pointed out that no medical source appeared to support that data, SlimVirgin withdrew the FAC nomination rather than NPOV the article. This has happened before; see the discussions linked at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Evidence#SG: Timeline showing FeloniousMonk and SlimVirgin actions. What is curious to me is that this attempt looks like a genuine attempt to make Misplaced Pages more reliable, but in fact, it can easily be manipulated to result in the opposite-- opinions which are false included because they are attributed.

    This is a new and clever presentation of the ATTRIBUTION page that was defeated several years ago, because it allows for UNDUE POV via ATTRIBUTION (that is, opinion that is potentially false). And, by placing the argument on the article talk page-- rather than at the Reliable Sources noticeboard-- the burden to get the false opinion out of the article is higher, because the article guardians predominate at the article talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

• Neutral (Switched to oppose, above.) I agree with some of this. I agree that verifiability is an "initial threshold for inclusion" (while sometimes verifiable information may not meet other thresholds). I agree that verification is not a guarantee for inclusion (though that fact is mentioned elsewhere, so I'm neutral about its inclusion here). My concern is that the proposed wording intends to de-emphasize the fact that truth is not an acceptable criterion for inclusion -- but it could effectively remove that criterion by basing it only on an essay that will no longer be accurate. See my question below. I might switch my comment to "support" if my concerns are adequately resolved, or to "oppose" if they are not. – Quadell 12:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't speak for others, but as the primary author of the proposal, I can assure you that my intent isn't to "de-emphasize the fact that truth is not an acceptable criterion for inclusion" (I firmly agree that it is not), my intent is to address the opposite side of the coin: whether untruth is an acceptable criterion for exclusion.

These are two sides of the same coin... The "unverifiable truth" side of the coin has a black and white answer... if the material isn't verifiable, we shouldn't include it, no matter how true it may be. But there isn't a clear black and white answer to the "verifiable untruth" side of the coin... sometimes we should exclude verifiable material that is untrue, and sometimes we shouldn't. It's a case by case determination... and the determination is (in most cases) based primarily on policy concepts other than verifiability. The problem is that the current policy doesn't mention this. It only discusses one side of the coin. The point of the proposal is to address both. It may not do a perfect job of doing so, but at least we try to address it. Does this resolve your concerns? Blueboar (talk) 13:58, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I apologize if I misrepresented your intentions. I want to be clear here... it sounds like you're saying that there are times that verifiable statements might still need to be deleted based on the claim that they are untrue, and that this wording change is designed to facilitate that. Am I correct in that? – Quadell 16:57, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's clearly the case. An example that the working group came up with, in discussion, was the statement that "Pluto is a planet". That statement is verifiable and I can prove it by reference to otherwise-reliable sources, but it's also been false since 2006 when the definition of "planet" changed. The proposed wording allows for that kind of situation, and more controversial ones too.—S Marshall T/C 18:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe the truth of that statement matters, in terms of whether it should be included. It's a matter of the weight of the sources. Certainly statements should be challenged if more recent sources contradict it, if corrections are issued, etc., but not merely based on a claim of untruth. To make a simplistic example, if I claim "Cromulent widgets tend to be blue", and I provide a reliable source, and Joe Blow claims the statement is untrue (without providing contradictory sources), his claims are null here. The current wording makes this clear. The proposed wording, while having some advantages, seems to open the door to the possibility that Joe's claim of untruth has weight. If so, I can't support it. – Quadell 19:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Re Quadell's comment, "Joe Blow claims the statement is untrue (without providing contradictory sources), his claims are null here. The current wording makes this clear." - Not really. The current wording discusses what is necessary for inclusion, not what is sufficient for inclusion. In other words, the current wording doesn't say whether or not something can be excluded based on a claim like Joe Blow's. The present wording only says that something can't be included based only on a claim by Joe Blow that it is true. Both the current wording and the proposed wording are neutral on the issue of excluding material from a reliable source because someone claims it is not true. The current wording says nothing about it, and the proposal says it needs to be discussed on the article's talk page, with reference to other policies. --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The proposed wording, on the other hand, does address this somewhat... it says to discuss the issue on the talk page with reference to other polices and guidelines. Yes, it is passing the buck to those other policies and guidelines, but at least it is more than is in the current version. Blueboar (talk) 01:02, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Responding to Quadell, I submit that there are three flaws in what I believe is implied your "Joe Blow" statement. One is implying that Joe Blow could unilaterally remove the statement over objections based just on his claim of falsehood. Nothing new or old supports this. Second is is that a simple "I say it's false" unsupported claim of falsehood is a sort of straw-man rarity....inevitably such a claim includes something to support its veracity. The third is overlooking the more realistic option which is simply that Joe Blow's statement of falsehood is allowed to enter into the conversation (doubtless gauged based on what Joe includes to support his assertion) that the editors are having about potential exclusion of material. Currently a common mis-read is often used to completely exclude that from the conversation. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

It's up to you whether you can support it, but I want to say that I completely disagree with you. Jimbo expressed my view very well when he said: "We are not transcription monkeys, merely writing down what sources say. We want to only write true things in Misplaced Pages, and we want to verify them." My position is that wikipedians are educators, and there's something sinister about an educator who doesn't care about the truth. We absolutely can, do, and must, make judgments about what's true. Oh, sure, we can put it in terms like "weight of the sources" and try to judge which source is "most reliable", but in fact what we mean when we say that a source is "reliable" or "deserves weight" is that that source is "likely to be true". Thus we put a semantic layer in between article content and truth. But when our judgment about what to include depends on which source is the most likely to be accurate, then the difference between that and making judgments about "truth" is semantics and nothing but. And my position is that we should be intolerant of those who wish to introduce lies into encyclopaedia articles.—S Marshall T/C 19:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. When we say that a source is reliable and has weight we do not make a judgement about its presumed veracity, but about the degree to which it represents current consensus in the relevant field. I must say that I am surprised at Mr. Wales in my view rather naive understanding of what truth is. To make judgments about what is true is the job of specialist researchers - not wikipedian editors. It is implicit in the word "editor" that we make editorial decisions - of what to include and what not. But editors do not overrule professional researchers conclusions even if they disagree with them, they leave that to the scientific community. You are trying to give wikipedia a function of knowledge creation in addition to its role of knowledge transmission. That could be fine given that that is what a majority of wikipedians feel it should do, but it is not what I signed up for. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, where there's a controversy in any field, Misplaced Pages prefers the mainstream academic consensus. It's right that we do that. We present the mainstream academic consensus in the simple indicative ("Evolution has led to the diversification of all living organisms from a common ancestor...", quoted from Evolution) and the alternative views as reported speech ("Some advocates believe that major differences in the appearance and behavior of two organisms indicates (sic) lack of common ancestry", quoted from Baraminology). From my point of view, the reason to use reported speech is because the addition of "some advocates believe" turns what would be a false statement in the simple indicative ("The major differences... indicate lack of common ancestry") into a true one. And from my point of view, the reason to present the mainstream academic consensus in the simple indicative is because we default to believing that the mainstream academic consensus is the correct view. But if you take away the value judgments about "truth" from this process, then actually there's no reason to treat the mainstream academic consensus about evolution any differently from baraminology, so either both belong as reported speech, or else both belong in the simple indicative (presumably the latter, since if we don't care about truth, the simpler construction is to be preferred).

This is why I believe the what is truth? view is logically inconsistent and fails to document good practice as well as a truth-based view.—S Marshall T/C 20:31, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The idea that "verifiability" does not include a brief review of whether something cited by a source is accurate or not, is and always has been an erroneous POV. Verifiability implies much more than confirming that a statement can be found in a reliable source. It also implies that such a statement can be evaluated based upon other, corresponding criteria, such as the authority of the author, the reliability of the publisher, and the relevancy and currency of the statement. In the Pluto example, such a statement fails the currency criteria. We can verify it, but it is no longer current, and this means, it is no longer accurate. This is very simple to understand, so I am unable to grasp its opposition. Viriditas (talk) 09:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

1. Abstain. (Moved from Oppose until final opinion is formed.) Verifiability, not truth may be a slap in the face when reading it the first time – it certainly was to me because it gave me the impression that the Misplaced Pages community does not care about the (objective) truth but only about verifiability. But you quickly start to understand the rationale behind this, and the meme becomes a powerful and appealing one. While I understand that not truth provides futile grounds for wikilawyering and a more clarifying version is therefore welcome, I am missing what our current meme delivers so clearly, that "truth" by itself is not an acceptable criterion for inclusion. I am willing to support a version that addresses the issue about truth in its lead paragraph, but not this one. Nageh (talk) 13:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

   I think there is a trade-off between the current wording and the proposal. The current slogan is powerful in that it makes newcomers immediately clear that "truth" by itself is not a criterion for inclusion. The proposed wording attempts to address the concern that editors purposefully add false information that is presented in a reliable source. The end result for both wordings is the same: whether to include some material is a matter of WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. Maybe it is the latter part that should be clarified. In the end, it seems all a question of which version is more likely to be misinterpreted. Nageh (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

2. I don't really have an opinion on proposal (2) because the definition of verifiability found in this policy is rather confusing. "Verifiability in this context means anyone should be able to check that material in a Misplaced Pages article has been published by a reliable source." Is a piece publicly displayed in a museum something "published by a reliable source", for instance? What if it's on public display only for a limited time? Can we write in an article that a piece is found in said museum while the public display condition holds true, but we'd have to delete it thereafter? Also, a I think a policy should not link to an essay inline in its text. Perhaps Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth should be linked only in the "See also" section. I think that simply adding WP:DUE as an example in the first sentence "(especially whether specific material is included in a specific article, e.g. due weight)." would be a less verbose way to mention a concern that is not central to this policy. Proposed addition is in bold here, but I don't suggest actually using bold in the policy text. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 18:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

   Generally, things made available to the "public" have been "published". The words are very closely related. You might find it helpful to read Misplaced Pages:Published. On the specific example, the answer is yes for most circumstances: signs or items that are displayed in a museum (or street corner) are published. The items on display are primary sources, so you have to be very careful how you use them. However, if the exhibit is closed later, then they are no longer accessible and thus ineligible (exactly like a book is no longer eligible if every known copy is later destroyed). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

   As someone training in the museum profession I should point out that in general museum exhibits have source material for what information they provide so a museum exhibit is NOT going to be your only source for information. If the information is so obscure that the source the museum used cannot be found then you have to ask if it meets Misplaced Pages:Notability. For example I would love to have an article here on Doane R. Hoag's "Random Time Machine" articles that ran in several papers for nearly a decade starting in the 1970s but other than the paper it appeared in there is nothing on it and so because it fails Misplaced Pages:Notability we don't have an article on it and likely never will.--BruceGrubb (talk) 19:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

   Verifiability applies to far more than "shall we have an article entirely about this subject" (=notability). You could use a museum exhibit to support, say, a single sentence in an article about fossils or history if you wanted. It might not be the best possible source, but it's probably adequate, and you must WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT, even if better sources might exist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

3. Neutral. I agree with the sentiment of this change, but I don't think it will work. The verifiability, not truth mantra will continue, as it is effectively true. Mark Hurd (talk) 03:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

   The mantra is not true, it's verifiable... (sorry I couldn't resist). Crazynas 21:12, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

   Mark, the purpose of the proposal was never to discontinue the mantra... but to explain it better, so that people understand what it means and use it appropriately (and not use it inappropriately). Blueboar (talk) 20:59, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

4. Just a comment: I've had more than one person I know who is the subject of an article try and fail to correct basic facts (in once case, his own birrhdate) because some newspaper or such got it wrong in print, and be rebuffed because they hadn't published anywhere. The verifiability criterion in combination with an extreme interpretation of NOR can be a real problem. - Jmabel | Talk 21:52, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

   Is it that real (big) a problem? And even if it was vast, what would you do about that. Would you think a rule that says, 'anyone with special knowledge can correct errors known only to them,' would work? What would you propose? Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:03, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

   Neutral (with regret). (Switched to Oppose) Kudos to all those (particularly BlueBoar) for putting this proposal together. Unfortunately I can't support it as I think the proposed section (==Assertions of truth and untruth==) is actually confusing. Moreover I feel keeping the 'not truth' phrase in line 1 is a good idea. Again while i sympathize with teh suggestion I don't believe it is the right move--Cailil 20:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

5. Neutral - I appreciate the work that went into this, but the new proposed section ==Assertions of truth and untruth== in its attempt clarrify the proposed change to venerability, not truth only makes it worse. This is why we have WP:CREEP. If it were just the rephrasing of that one paragraph it would be enough, but with the added section it just muddies the water.∞陣内Jinnai 21:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
6. Neutral only in so much as the solution clearly has not yet been found. Sure everything must be verifiable, however something can be verifiable yet be untrue, i.e. inaccurate. We are all human and we all make mistakes. Including reliable sources. Misplaced Pages should not require something that is untrue. If something is verifiable yet inherently false and wikipedia editors recognise that then there should be a discussion on the appropriateness of the inclusion of that information. Misplaced Pages editors are not robots. We can think for ourselves and make decisions. We should always question sources and information, verify it and strive for accurateness and truefulness. The idea that something that is verifiable is automatically suitable for inclusion is naive, since we should not be in the business of promoting false information. Never trust sources, even ones that meet the criteria in WP:RS. Strive for truthful knowledge, strive for perfection. Any policy that includes any idea that untruthful information is acceptable in wikipedia since it is supported by some "reliable sources" is a poorly formulated one. Cheers Polyamorph (talk) 21:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
7. Neutral. Is it worth considering retaining "verifiability, not truth" while otherwise modifying(expanding) the lede? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
8. Neutral. The section on Assertions of truth and untruth is too poorly written for me to agree with the proposal.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 17:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Questions

Linked essay bases itself on the current wording

• The proposed wording for this policy links to the essay Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth in order to explain that truth is not enough for inclusion (a clearly important concept). But that essay bases itself on the current wording here; it's initial sentence is "Misplaced Pages's core sourcing policy, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, defines the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages as verifiability, not truth." How will this discrepancy be resolved? – Quadell 12:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Well, clearly, by editing the essay. We need to see what the consensus wording for the policy will be before we can fix the essay, though.—S Marshall T/C 12:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
    • Does it make sense to propose a change to a policy's wording that would both link to an essay and make that essay inaccurate at the same time? – Quadell 13:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, it makes perfect sense. Essays are not rules... however, one of the main purposes of essays is to explain the thinking and intent behind the rules. The essay in question is a very good explanation of the the thinking and intent behind the phrase: "Verifiability, not truth". Linking to it will help readers gain an deeper understanding of what we mean by that phrase. Now, we will need to amended the essay slightly if this proposal is passed, but that does not mean we should not link to the essay at all. Blueboar (talk) 14:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
        • Although this isn't exactly responding to Quadell's question, I'd like to suggest that, assuming the proposal passes, we have a shortcut that goes directly to the new section about truth. Currently, WP:NOTTRUTH directs to the top of WP:V. I'd very much like to see it target, instead, the proposed new section. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
          • Unless I'm missing something, the proposed wording does not link to that essay. The rationale does, but it is not a part of the proposed change. North8000 (talk) 11:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The case where a reliable source is wrong in their statement

• How do you propose to resolve the case where a reliable source is wrong in their statement? I remember a case where a statement was made about Misplaced Pages by a reliable secondary source that was directly contradicted by the primary source of the page histories. (I'd give more details, but I don't feel like digging through archives until I remember). Easily verifiable, but in contradiction to the way we're supposed to be working here. I don't think the old version addressed the issue any better, but the new version hammers more on the published RS side of things.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

If a source is demonstrably wrong it is ipso facto not a "reliable source" - that is explained in WP:RS. I really wish people would stop trying to force this policy to do the work of a different policy. Roger (talk) 15:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Where in RS is there any guidelines on that? I think RS does a very good job in explaining who to judge a book by its covers, and that's what is needed most of the time, but nowhere in Misplaced Pages, even not in this proposal, is there particularly helpful advice on what to do when a secondary source is contradicted by primary or raw data sources. Vesal (talk) 15:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes actually have a clear policy on that: What we need to do if we find that a peer reviewed publication is contradicted by primary sources is that we write an article about our interpretation of the sources arguing that previous interpretations are wrong and submit it to a peer reviewed journal.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:29, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

And how is checking a primary source to see if it aligns with a secondary sources description of it not Original Research? Are we not in effect saying that our skills as researchers trump the ones of peer reviewed professionals. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the problem everyone here is grappling with is the misuse of reliable sources. The simple fact that something is published in a book or journal article is not always sufficient to establish that this is an appropriate source or that the view it expresses is significant. I think everyone would agree about this. But whatever our solution is, it cannot be one that promotes original research, I agree fully with Maunus. I think the problem is that people have turned publication, which was a minimum criterion for verifiability, into the maximum criterion. The problem is that we need more information to know whether the source is appropriate or the view is significant. This requires more research, but not original research as Maunus describes. It means reading enough secondary sources to understand what exactly makes any given book or article important and to whom, perhaps. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

We are not talking about conflicting views expressed in secondary sources. Sarek's question is about when a reliable source is contradicted by a primary or raw data source. To simplify the example, assume The New York Times, and a bunch of outlets repeating it, state that Jimbo Wales edited the entry of president Obama to say Obama is a really nasty piece of work, and you check the contribution logs and see this edit was made by an impostor, such as User:Jim Wales. What would you do? Wait until New York Times retract their statement? No other views are published in secondary sources, so it is up to you to decide whether you want to repeat untrue information. What kind of research, based on secondary sources, would help us here? What kind of NPOV considerations? Vesal (talk) 16:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

We have an editorial discussion and decide whether the statement in the Times is significant enough to be notable- If we decide that it is then we write "On february 10th the New York times published a piece accusing Jimbo Wales of dissing Obama". And we do it because that is a fact. When Wales then decides to retort via the press then we include his statement as well. Any other approach would be Original Research. (you could for example write your finding in a letter to the editorial staff of the times - thus making them retract the statement)·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, that is a pretty good answer, although perhaps my example was too harmless and does not adequately reflect the situation that Sarek was referring to. Still, I would not say any other approach is original research: there is no attempt to include something in the article, and one should try to avoid repeating libelous information, even attributed, until of course the situation reaches such degree of notability that it can't be avoided, but instead Misplaced Pages is one of the first places that reports, and escalates, such controversies. Vesal (talk) 17:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that we handle it this way. The Misplaced Pages log is a primary source, but in this hypothetical case its reliability trumps the reliability of the secondary source The New York Times. We should always use the best and most reliable source when we try to verify something, and if that source refutes the allegation that Jimbo Wales vandalized the Barack Obama article, then that is the version we should go by. The next questions are "Is the NYT allegation notable?" and "Is it notable that someone impersonated Jimbo Wales?". If the answer to these questions is "no", then I would probably exclude that content altogether. Sjakkalle (Check!) 19:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The proposal attempts to deal with all of this in two ways... first, by noting that Verifiability is a requirement for, but not a guarantee of inclusion... and by noting that we should look to other polices and guidelines to make the determination as to whether to include a specific bit of verifiable information. Blueboar (talk) 17:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

But the policy needs to state specifically that untruth is not in itself a valid reason for exclusion, we can include untrue statements if they are notable and attributed to their specific source, and weighted with any contradictory statements according to significance. For example we can include in the article about Monical Lewinsky that "President Clinton stated I did not have sex with that woman", and no one can remove that statement because it is a lie - because it is vrifiable fact that he made the statement.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a true statement. President Clinton did state "I did not have sex with that woman". Therefore the policy supports its inclusion.—S Marshall T/C 18:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. It is also true to write "the national inquirer wrote that Leonardo di Caprio has been analprobed by aliens". The reason we don't include that is not that it is untrue, but that it is insignificant. For that reason the question of "truth" is not relevant - only the question of verifiability and attribution. User BruceGrubb is for example arguing that we have to remove a statement by a recognized professional making a claim about the first usage of the word, because he himself has found an earlier usage. I say if the statement is significant we include it attributed to its source, regardless of whether BruceGrubb's or another editors original research suggest that the statement may be factually incorrect. Similarly we don't remove Clinton's statement because an editor happens to have a photo of a sexual act betwen Clinton and Lewinsky, falsifying Clinton's statement. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This kind of example got discussed to death by the working group over a period of about eight months. The situation is that if an editor writes, "Clinton stated, 'I did not have sex with that woman'," then the statement is true; but if an editor writes, "Clinton did not have sex with Monica Lewinsky" then that statement is very arguably false and certainly needs to be refactored. Even though it's sourced to the President of the United States himself. The proposed policy wording clarifies how to deal with such situations.—S Marshall T/C 18:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it does. On the contrary it suggests that wikipedians can remove statements that they "know" to be untrue regardless of whether there are any reliable sources supporting that conclusion. This undermines both WP:V and WP:NOR.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

SarekOfVulcan, the case you are talking about is now part of the WP:Inaccuracy page and is where Peter Knight's direct statement "The first recorded use of the phrase "conspiracy theory" dates back to a history article from 1909" could be proven wrong as the phrase "conspiracy theory" could be shown to have appeared before 1909 with the earliest RS The Journal of mental science (1871)--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

* Levels of exclusion regarding potentially inaccurate material

• We don't use Misplaced Pages's voice to say it, instead we use inline attribution.
  
• We mention the anomaly in a footnote.
  
• The potentially inaccurate material has so little prominence (WP:DUE), that we don't mention it at all.

Unscintillating (talk) 19:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This policy with which I was not familiar should be integrated much more prominently in the proposed text of WP:V then.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This essay is purposed as a guideline to be linked from WP:V and WP:NPOV.  It is new and needs more eyes.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Elevating this would go a long way towards alleviating the problems that are driving this discussion. Mangoe (talk) 22:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• • Reply to the original question: there is a statement in WP:PRIMARY: "Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages." Have mörser, will travel (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
    • We need to stop using "secondary source" to mean "good source". Secondary sources can be truly lousy: biased, inaccurate, incomplete, non-independent, and more. If the primary source is more likely to be correct than the secondary source, then we should go with the better source. A secondary source might tell you whether a given piece of information is important (DUE), but it is not automatically the best possible source. For example, if you're quoting a line from a poem, it's often better to cite the original publication, not the (possibly mistaken) second-hand reproduction in someone else's book. We all know how the telephone game works, and anyone who doesn't recognize the problems that secondary sources have with quotations should be sentenced to cleaning up errors at Wikiquotes until he or she becomes achieves enlightenment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
      • I fully agree especially when "secondary source" = "good source" is used to curb stomp NPOV issues such as those seen in the Jesus myth theory --BruceGrubb (talk) 06:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)article.

If the iconic-phrase is divisive, meaning that some fear it has unintended side effects but there will not be a consensus to bury it, this RfC should nonetheless have successfully brought to light together the strong variety of mechanisms already available for countering those feared side effects. Moving forward, it looks a consensus could be built by proposal that, without burying those three words, inserts below in the document a prominent section or passage directly countering those side-effects (e.g., explicitly decreeing those are not valid interpretations, and advertising the specific other policies to use for countering such misapplications). Keep the icon but rid the fears? Cesiumfrog (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Need explicit wording

1. The casual reader needs some help to make the distinction between two definitions of verifiability:

• common: The ability to determine if a claim corresponds to truth.
• Misplaced Pages's: The ability to determine if a summary of a claim corresponds to its appearance in a published reliable source. patsw (talk) 15:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

2. I would also like to see an explicit denial that as a collaboration we are indifferent to truth. My own contribution along these lines is here: Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth#Editors are summarizers not truth finders patsw (talk) 15:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

On point #2 - I agree that such a statement would be beneficial... but I don't think WP:V is the right place to put it. Blueboar (talk) 13:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Both points are common misunderstandings of WP:V. We're not indifferent... appears in the essay. If I see the accusation that Misplaced Pages editors are indifferent to the truth on- or off- Wiki again, I will bring it up on the talk page. patsw (talk) 13:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree that the WIkipedia meaning of verifiability is different from wha tis at least one very common understanding and we should make this clearer. I also acknowledge that the definition of the Misplaced Pages use of the term is wording that the V policy has had since the page was created. I am sorry I didn't argue against it at the time, but I think that this wording has caused us a heap of trouble. It is not wrong, but it skips a step and insodoing turns reliable sources into ends when they are means to an end. I think the missing step is: we are verifying that the claim that we represent is a "significant view" meaning that the claim is not one of our own invention but rather one that is universally held, widely held, held by a majority, held by a notable minority. "Reliable sources" are the means by which we verify this. But what we are verifying is that it is a significant view. Without making this clear, to things often happen: (1) many editors misuse sources, using hat may in some context be a reliabl source inappropriately and (2) observers of WP conclude that we include anything that has been published on the web. What we are verifying is that it is a significant view giving due weight to its significance. It is only in relation to this principle that a source can be deemed reliable and be used effectively. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that most would consider this to be pretty overwhelming, far beyond beyond a consensus already. North8000 (talk) 15:25, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Time to close?

Time to close? It received a large number of responses, the results look pretty overwhelming. New responses have trailed off, quantities for the last few days have been:

"Support"

• October 23 2
• October 24 1
• October 25 0
• October 26 0
• October 27 1
• October 28 6
• October 29 16

"Oppose"

• October 23 1
• October 24 1
• October 25 0
• October 26 0
• October 27 0
• October 28 5
• October 29 18

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:22, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that's very reasonable. Normally, RfCs have to run a minimum of two weeks, and this is well beyond that. You could, perhaps, put a neutrally worded request at WP:AN for a previously uninvolved administrator to do the closure. --Tryptofish (talk) 13:52, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll do that North8000 (talk) 14:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I did that. North8000 (talk) 14:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it is time to close or to announce an immanent close. But I do not consider the results to be decisive. When changing policy we need to reach a consensus. That more than a third of the people who commented are opposed or neutral shows that we are quite far from a consensus.

Many of the comments, pro and con, provide important and constructive feedback, which is a principal aim of an RfC. The question is, how to draw on the critical comments in order to craft a proposal that will generate a consensus? Answering this question may take some time, but that is something we have plenty of. I certainly think that this consensus is achievable. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

From the policy WP:Consensus in the lead of the section What consensus is,

"Consensus is not necessarily unanimity. Ideally, it arrives with an absence of objections, but if this proves impossible, a majority decision must be taken. More than a simple majority is generally required for major changes."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 15:16, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, the results are pretty overwhelming, and for the specific proposal. Far above and beyond the norm for a consensus. North8000 (talk) 15:27, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and I would point out that the RFC was about specific wording proposed after literally months of long discussion in the attempt to find common ground. I sincerely doubt we will get unanimity on any wording, and as evidence of that I point to the fact that there are two camps of opposes in the RFC who fundamentally disagree as to why it is important to oppose the suggested wording. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with Bob K31416, North8000 and Nuujinn. There's been more than eight months of discussion followed by a long, long RFC that have attracted a lot of interest and a lot of contributions. I'm looking for a decision now—not a compromise, not the start of a new kind of talking shop, but a relatively final outcome so we can finally make progress and move on.—S Marshall T/C 15:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I never used the word unanimity and I did not think anyone here would misinterpret "consensus" to mean unanimity. I do not think we should seek unanimity. But this is NOT an article. This is a policy. The threshold for change to a policy is much greater than it is for an article. And usually, changes to this page are made through consensus. the fact that we have had an RfC does not mean we abandon that pricniple. The purpose for a request for comment is ... to request comments. The poll does indicate that This issue needs attention, and it indicates that Blueboar has some good ideas. The fact that there are so many people opposed is also significant polls are not up/down votes. I agree that people disagree for different reasons. i also point out that people agree for different reasons. Collaborative editing means, working through all the constructive criticisms and suggestions to make a good proposal even better. We may never get unanimity and that certainly should not be an obstacle to change. But thoughtful criticisms can be applied to revising the proposal, just as thougtful support should never be dismissed.

This is a request for comment. The comments are the point; it is not just a vote. We should disregard everyone who registered support or opposition without reasons, and there may be comments that are empty of meaning, or unthoughtful or unconstructive. Whatever is left is what a request for comment is supposed to generate: thoughtful comments. I see no reason why Blueboar's proposal cannot be imporved upon, and I think many of the comments suggest ways that it can be improved. That is what an RfC is for. It is a stage in the development of a consensus through collaborative editing, in which specific comments are solicited as a way to have very focused feedback. Well, we got those comments. Whether they are in support or opposition is not the point, what matters is that they are thoughtful and constructive. That is what makes an RfC a success.

I find it hard to believe people do not think Blueboar's proposal cannot be improved upon (even if it is used as our base/starting point — please do not misrepresent my comment to mean we should abandon it). The question is, did the RfC produce comments that could help us improve it? I think it did. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

RFC's are more than just comments, they are also are THE venue for decisions and gauging a consensus. And this one is on a specific proposal. "Further improvement possible" is something for after the change, not a rationale for blocking it. North8000 (talk) 15:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Slrubenstein said: "I find it hard to believe people do not think Blueboar's proposal cannot be improved upon..." - Actually about 1/3 of the participants in the discussion believe the best way to improve it is to drop it. Roger (talk) 16:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• Clears throat. The opening post of this sub-thread asked whether it was time to close the RfC and how to do so. It wasn't a request for editors who already participated, either supporting or opposing, to try to tell the closing administrator what the decision should be. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:27, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've reverted the premature RfC closure. There is no reason, with a key policy change, to close the RfC before the 30 days is up. In addition, it's not clear to me what the consensus is; not clear that the RfC was a proper wiki-wide one (I was hoping for something not on this page), and it would be appreciated if more than one (completely uninvolved) admin would agree to interpret the consensus. SlimVirgin 22:24, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Re: I was hoping for something not on this page... Um... where would an RfC on a proposed policy change go if not on the policy talk page? Blueboar (talk) 23:47, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I had hoped you would open a wiki-wide RfC, along the lines of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Verifiability, not truth, with watchlist notices, etc., as you recall we did for ATT. That would have attracted more input, and that was what I understood by "wiki-wide," rather than just another RfC on this page -- of which we've already had several, which opposed change. SlimVirgin 01:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and in regard to We should disregard everyone who registered support or opposition without reasons, with respect, no, we should not. Simple !votes indicate an editor's position on the question at hand, and while they should not carry as much weight as a well reasoned argument informed in policy, they should be accorded some weight. But I do not think there has been insufficient exposure to the community--the matter was discussed over the last several months in multiple venues, and the drafting of the RFC was public and took a good long while, too, this has been a long and open process. In regard to the duration of the RFC, waiting a few more days seems appropriate, as does a multi-admin closure. I'm unsure of how one would request the latter, but my gut feeling is we should ask for uninvolved admins from pools of admins who handle mediation or dispute resolution, as they have a knack for helping move discussion forward. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

We never were in a hurry; even the "time to close?" question was open for several days with nobody against. But I am absolutely angry with and sick and tired of the "more of the same" strong arm, ownership and double standard stuff that I am seeing here. Whenever someone doesn't like the outcome, they invent new rules. The barrier for a change that they are in vavor or is incredibly low, and the barrier for something that they don't like, their personal incrediblyly high standards get invented. We need to take a stand against this. It should stay closed unless there is a consensus (not just a few strong-arm people) to reopen it. North8000 (talk) 00:41, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

When you see comments on an important RfC petering out, one that will change a core policy, you ask for more input, you don't rush to close it early. Leaving it open for a few more days or a week will make sure people get a chance to speak.

And North, seriously, you have to stop accusing people of ownership issues here. You have posted about this issue more than any other editor, nearly a thousand posts on this page alone since July 2010 (plus on several others), making you the third highest poster overall, though the first two (Blueboar and myself) have been posting since 2006 and 2005 respectively. So it just isn't reasonable to accuse anyone else of ownership when it comes to this issue. SlimVirgin 00:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• SV, you are heavily involved. It was inappropriate for you to revert Sarek's close without even discussing it with him.—S Marshall T/C 01:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Just a general impression. The RFC has become quite chaotic in the last couple of hours. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:06, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

An RFC on a policy change should last for the full term as described in WP:RFC, which is 30 days. I don't see any reason to close this early. Dreadstar ☥ 01:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Consensus may arise from this poll; I myself offered one compromise which may eventually result in a consensus quite like the proposal. But if I see another claim that this discussion is consensus for this wording, I will seek dispute resolution with that person. We would not confirm an admin with this ratio of supporters to opponents; to impose this text, instead of, as WP:Consensus requires, modifying it to attract disssentients while retaining proponents, is to run by majority vote. WP:Voting is evil. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:56, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify? --Nuujinn (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

To those for whom that is not clear, no explanation will make it clearer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Hm, that's a less than helpful response, esp. given that I'm honestly not sure about the antecedents of your thises. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Nuujinn, with respct, yesterday I actually quoted the relevant part of the guidelines, below. But if I may follow up on PMAnderson, I would ask you to read the essay linked on voting is evel and more important, to reread the guidelines on RfC. I respectfully suggest you missed part of them or misread them and I am courteously just asking you to reread them, it is just one page.

As to when to close the RfC, the normal practice is 30 days after the RfC was opened. If Blueboar (or whoever started the RfC, I think it is Blueboar) believes that the RfC has produced a consensus earlier than the 30 days, Blueboar can close it sooner.

I think SlimVirgin's suggestion that the RfC should have had its own page is a reasonable point. However, I do want to note that Blueboar advertised this RfC on other policy pages and perhaps elsewhere as well - so I do think Blueboar and others have made a serious effort to let a wide range of editors know about this request for comments. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

North proposed closing on the 26th and Sarek closed it on the 28th. That is NOT a lot of time to discuss how best to close the RfC. Maybe this is the time to close, but let's have some discussion before railroading a premature closuer. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

This RfC will close one month from when it started at the very least (November 5th). Any sort of "premature closure" isn't on or warranted. It's not time to close yet - no need for a coup de grâce yet, ladies and gentlemen. Be patient :> Doc talk 12:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

If it closes that early, I'll try to reopen it. There have been a number of missteps, and we should wait until the activity drops off again before closing the RfC. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

A question

I would like to make sure that everyone who commented in the previous RfCs/polls over the last few months is aware of this new one. I don't want to start leaving notes on user talk pages, in case I'm accused of canvassing. I'd therefore like to get agreement here as to how these editors should be informed.

The reason I feel this is needed is that this talk page became so bogged down over the last few months with constant polls that I think lots of people gave up and stopped looking at it (e.g. me). So I think we ought to alert people to this latest one. SlimVirgin 04:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I think most of the people who have commented in the previous RfCs have already commented in this one. If you can think of anyone who has not, I would be happy to notify them for you (which should avoid any accusations of canvasing). Blueboar (talk) 04:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, then it would be you canvassing, not me. Can we agree some wording for a notice? My concern about the one you put up was that it didn't say what the issue was. I would prefer something like:

"There is an RfC here on whether to remove from the lead of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability that "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." The RfC is likely to close in a few days, so if you want to comment please do so soonish."

You said you thought it was more complex than that, so what would you want to add, or how would you phrase it? SlimVirgin 04:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Whenever you try to summarize the proposed change you will inevitably create a biased one such as you wrote above and have been putting elsewhere. Yours gives the initial impression that the change is taking "verifiability" and everything else in that sentence out of the lead. Any neutral notice would say simply that there is a proposed changed in the lead and let people come here and see the proposed change instead of being told a particular person's summary of it. North8000 (talk) 10:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's a neutral and accurate description of the proposal:

There is an RfC here on whether to change the Misplaced Pages:Verifiability policy as follows:

• 1) Change the opening paragraph:

• 2) Insert a new section to deal with the issue of truth/untruth...as follows:

The RfC is likely to close in a few days, so if you want to comment please do so soonish. --JN466 14:09, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It has to be more succinct than that. This has been the problem with this RfC; it lost people before they had even commented, just as (in my view) the point of the proposed policy will be lost on people before they get to the end of the first sentence. I will come up with a compromise between your suggestion and mine. SlimVirgin

In particular, in what circumstances would it be admissable if an editor is able to state from their own pesonal experience that something is not true. In particular I am currently involved in a dispute regarding the pricing policy of a supermarket chain. This morning I had the opportunity to visit a branch of the chain concerned and the visit showed gave overwhelming proof that the pricing policy as described in Misplaced Pages had either never been implemented or had been discontinued. Is it sufficient for me to state exactly what I saw, where I saw it and when I saw it on order to prove untruth? Martinvl (talk) 15:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Your personal experience is not sufficient to "prove" anything... but it is sufficient to start a discussion on the talk page about it, and raise a concern. And that talk page discussion might well result in a consensus that the text of the article needs to change (or not). Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

A heads-up. The editor in question wishes to remove material about a supermarket policy statement about experimental pricing strategies made a year and a half ago. This issue is currently in mediation. The editor has been repeatedly criticised on the article talkpage for going to various fora and describing disputes both non-neutrally and without the courtesy of informing other parties to the dispute. (Informing others is not obligatory, but if they complain the first time, it's common sense to inform thereafter).VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Another example of invoking "verifiability, not truth" to override NPOV

Talk:Evolution/Archive 58#Statistical species. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 09:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Current announcements of RFC

How is the RFC being currently announced? Please give links to the announcements so that anyone can view them. Thank you. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Page number specification

In that verifiability depends on tracing a quote, point, or other material back to its source, and that such trace-backs are greatly facilitated by citing the specific page, section, or paragraph, the common opinion that page numbers (etc.) should be cited seems quite reasonable. Yet it seems there is no definite statement that they should be used, or even required. Should there be a definite statement that citations should be as specific as possible, to the level of page, section, or paragraph? _ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:22, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you looked at Misplaced Pages:Citing sources? This goes into the details of what should be included in a citation and how to format them. Blueboar (talk) 22:25, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. At best it says page numbers "should" be given for books. Overall it just gives the impression of something nice if you want to go to the trouble, which many editors take as being entirely optional. In being found in the context of citation it does come across as a style issue. Whereas the few statements for greater specification generally reference WP:Verifiability. _ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:09, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem with requiring page numbers is that there are situations where a statement being made in the Misplaced Pages article is supported by an entire book or an entire chapter. And I can not cite a page number if the source does not have page numbers (an audio recording, for example). We can (and do) say it is "good practice" to supply page numbers, and we encourage it where appropriate, but we can not require it in all cases. Blueboar (talk) 13:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with everything Blueboar wrote and would add that this standard is just as likely to encourge people to quote whatever they can read via google snippets rather than actually reading whole books. But there is a convention for how to address Blueboar's points: if the point made is the explicit and primary point of the whole book or journal, we cite it without any page numbers. if it is an argument made in a chapter or section of a book or article, we provide the entire page range. if it is a point made on one page we cite the page. If this is not already in the CS guidelines, it ought to be. But too often I have sen editors take quotes out of context and while citing page numbers is nice, it is at least as important to verify that the quote or page citation is being used properly which usually requires one to have read the whole work. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Something else to consider... The Policy is that material should be verifiable (ie able to be verified). But we don't require that every statement be easily verified (actually, we don't even require that everything be verified... just material that is "challenged or likely to be challenged"). A citation without page numbers satisfies the requirement that the material be verifiable... it is just more difficult to actually verify.

Also... Policy pages on Misplaced Pages should focus on explaining broad principles, and avoid getting into too much detail (policy creep). "Correct" citation format is not really a policy issue. It is a style issue... and style issues are best discussed on style guide pages... such as WP:CS. Blueboar (talk) 14:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I would also point out that for topics that go back before ISBN became standard page numbers don't really help as there is no way to set down just which version of the book you are referring too.--BruceGrubb (talk) 19:57, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• • I would be sure to use page numbers for 1) direct quotes or 2) citing to something that might be likely to be challenged by another editor. If you are citing to a more general thought supported in the book, consider citing a chapter or section. If what you are citing is the general thrust of a book, then citing the book as a whole is probably OK.--GrapedApe (talk) 14:34, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Folks can challenge the includer to show that the material is supported by the source which then forces them to be more specific. North8000 (talk) 14:45, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

It's always a judgment call: More general points need more general cites, while more specific points need more specific cites. If the book is entitled Sky is Blue by Dr. Light (i.e. the citation is to the general thrust of the book), then I don't think it's necessary to have a page number to support the assertion that "Dr. Light believes that the sky is blue." --GrapedApe (talk) 14:53, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a theme here that we cannot require page numbers because sometimes a general reference is appropriate. (Or even that some sources are not paginated.) Look, I quite understand that general refererences are sometimes appropriate (though mostly for "further reading"). But the reality is that the overwhelming majority of citations within most articles do not have page numbers – but should, as they refer to specific points or quotes. And all of that is condoned because sometimes a "general" reference might be appropriate?

And most of you responded to the wrong argument. Look again: I did not suggest that we "require page numbers", let alone require them for all sources in all contexts. I asked if we should have a more definite statement -- perhaps even to requiring -- "that citations should be as specific as possible, to the level of page, section, or paragraph". GrapedApe seems to understand this, but I seem to have caught the rest of while you were asleep.

Nor am I suggesting that "every statement" should be "easily verified". That is covered by this policy, that "requires that all quotations and anything challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed in the form of an inline citation that directly supports the material." (And reiterated at Misplaced Pages:Citing sources.) Moreover, the WP:BURDEN of doing this "lies with the editor who adds or restores material" (emphasis in the original). If the originating editor is required to add a citation, why shouldn't s/he be required to add a complete citation, grabbing the specific page (section, etc.) while it is at hand? After all, s/he knows where it is, wheras someone attempting to verify the point would otherwise have to search the entire work. Because we condone letting editors make verfication harder we undercut our most basic principle.

The closest any existing statement comes to encouraging specific location (and then only for page numbers) seems to be that at Misplaced Pages:Citing sources. Which is, as Blueboar describes, in the context of citation technique and format. As the policy here regarding citation is largely "feel free to roll your own", that statement has the clout of a bird fart (as in "who noticed?").

Providing a specific citation (page number, section, chapter, whatever is appropriate) is not just "nice", not just a basic requirement of scholarship, but fundamental to Misplaced Pages. Why are we not encouraging it?

_ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• We are encouraging it. WP:CITE is very clear. There is enough wiggle room for exceptions, that's all.—S Marshall T/C 21:58, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Responding to J. Johnston. Unless I am misunderstanding, you seem to alternate between saying it should be encouraged and saying it should be mandated. I think that several examples were given against mandating. I might add another one. This is where the same work is used many times on the article for material that is not challenged or controversial. A common practice is to just cite the overall work multiple times. Requiring page numbers would terminate that practice and force it into IMHO overkill scenarios for that particular situation....repeating the full reference many times (except with different page numbers) or else go to a more complex 2 level referencing system which is difficult/confusing for new editors. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

You have misunderstood me. I am not proposing to "mandate" anything, I am proposing to more strongly encourage appropriate specification. (Perhaps you were mislead by the bolded excerpt from WP:BURDEN? That is an existing policy!) These objections to "mandating" ("requiring") are irrelevant as that is not what I am suggesting, and I am mystified why you all keep making this invalid straw man objection.

Regarding your "common practice": current policy is that if material is "common knowledge" and not likely to be challenged, then it doesn't even have to be cited in the first place. But if something is to be cited (e.g., all quotations), then it is much easier for the original author to include the page/section/etc. while it is at hand than for a subsequent editor to search for it. This "common" practice of balling up a bunch of citations into one general reference is a very poor practice, even sleazy, and ought to be terminated. Your fear of "overkill scenarios" arises from the very confusing situation here regarding citation generally, and should not excuse sloppiness. (There are ways to do page numbers easily enough, but that is a different issue, and likely an extended discussion.)

As to encouraging "it": hardly. WP:CITE says nothing about specificity of citations. As to page numbers, it says that for books and journals they are "typically" or "usually" included (though I challenge that); a subsequent "should" fails to bring this descriptive factoid even to the level of a faint suggestion, let alone encouragment. And for newspapers: "Page number(s) are optional." In actual reality it is the inclusion of page numbers (etc.) which is the exception.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, we disagree on several points. But as a point of clarification, when, on 2 occasions you say that "should" is not strong enough, that gives the impression to some (including me) of implying the typical next step up which is mandating. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

What? I am saying that current statements regarding use of page numbers, including a single instance of an express "should" buried in WP:CITE under "typically included" and "usually included", are not strong enough to encourage their use. I say that that particular "should" is not strong enough. I am amazed how you can jump from that to an "impression ... of implying ... mandating." ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

My mistake then, albeit an easily-made one. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It might help clear up any misunderstanding here if you suggested a specific edit. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is quite common for readers of our policy and guideline pages to confuse "should" with "must". "Should" is a fairly strong encouragement... "must" is a mandate. I can not think of a word that is stronger than "should", but not as absolute as "must", but perhaps someone else can... so I agree with Bob... we would need to see a proposed edit to move further on this. Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully that is now cleared up? Specifically, that "should" does not mean "must" (a word I actually abhor), and most certainly does not imply any element of coercion? (E.g., we might lean on people to do the right thing, there might even be social pressure, but no one is going to be knee-capped, or their work purged, if they simply omit a page number.) Perhaps there was also some confusion in the question I proposed. Note that the first instance ("Should there be a definite statement...") applies to us editors, and is in the nature of "the statement is such a good idea we will be knee-capped by Jimbo ... just ought to do it", while the second instance is about the appropriate use of page numbers (etc.).

I haven't proposed a specific edit because I think we still have general issues to sort out, and that there may be more than "a few simple edits". Assuming we are clear on "should", I am going to pop this out and list some of the possible issues. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Having clarified that "should" does not mean "must", I would like to clarify some other points of possible confusion.

1. "Should" means strongly desireable, but is not (e.g.) a mandate to remove non-compliant material.
2. "Should" is constrained by "as appropriate". E.g.: page numbers are not appropriate for sources that do not have page numbers.
3. The implicit policy issue is whether citations should be as specific as possible. (Alternately: as specific as desireable.)
4. "Page number" is used here as the most common kind of citation specification, but is understood to include all specification of sections, paragraphs, or other sub-divisions of a work, whether numbered or not.

There are other points I will argue, but the points here are for clarification. I pause to see if everyone is clear on these. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Where a statement is sourced to a particular conclusion in a work, the conclusion's position in the work must be indicated for verification purposes. This can include text searching, paragraph numbering, lines of code or law, page numbers (with an edition specified including the city of publication). Where a statement is sourced to the primary motive of an extended work, this should be cited against the introduction, thesis, conclusion with the position in the work indicated. Where a work is cited multiple times for different matters, on each occasion the place in the work needs to be indicated. Where a work is merely cited as existing at all, "Kevin published a book, "On ducks,"" only then is it legitimate to cite the work as a whole. Even then, I'd suggest citing the bibliographic page. The idea that the "vibe" of a work is contained in the work as a whole, but never made explicit by the author, and so the work as a whole should be cited is a very bad one leading to original exegeses of the meaning of the work. Authors who make claims with their whole work, usually take the pain to do so with an introduction or conclusion. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:20, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to go with Fifelfoo's level of "must": enough information must be given to allow location of the source statement(s), to the degree that the work permits this. If the work doesn't permit much localization, well, we have to live with it, but anything that suggests it is permissible to give no indication of where to find the cited information in an 800 page tome allows people to give themselves permission to include unverifiable references. Mangoe (talk) 02:08, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

From the section Anything challenged or likely to be challenged of WP:Verifiability, "Cite the source clearly and precisely, with page numbers where applicable." --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:44, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Fifeloo has propounded the point well: it is a bad idea (and a bad practice) to cite a source generally for some point or "vibe" that is never made explicitly. I would add as a very bad practice the "common" one suggested earliar, of leaving off specific page numbers (etc.) where there are multiple citations of a source. (If adding page numbers and such is too difficult, then one's citation technique needs revision, and I strongly urge getting weaned from named refs. But that is a discussion for elsewhere.)

However, I would be cautious about bandying around "must", for all the reasons we covered above. "Should" implies an obligation, as in one ought to do something, but "must" has intonations of compulsion. I would tell editors that they really ought to provide specification, lean on them heavily, even make GA status contingent on specification. But "must" gets too murky, even electrifying; "should" is (I think) sufficient, and generally preferable. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:10, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Well said. I would add that named refs that are broken into References and Notes sections work well and are not hard to manage. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:02, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Presumably the caveats (regarding "should", "appropriate", and "page numbers" as proxy for specification in general) are clear, so I return to the implicit policy issue: should citation be specific? (Don't forget the caveat of appropriate.) That is, given the existing policy that sources should be cited, does that extend into specifying the location within a source?

I argue yes, on the grounds that it is 1) a basic requirement of scholarship, and 2) fundamental to the Misplaced Pages principle of verifiability. In anticipation of some previous arguments being recycled I would further argue that supposed difficulty of adding a specification (e.g., page number) originally is of very little weight, and much outweighed by the difficulty of subsequently trying to find an alleged point. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

So possibly no one objects to the notion that citation should include specific location within a source?

It may be useful to think of citations as having two parts: the first part pointing to the source (think of it as a link out to the external world), and the second part pointing to the specific location within the source. The issue I am trying to address is the general neglect of the second part. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

What you and Firefloo have said makes sense to me. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Given that citations should specify the location within the source (e.g., a page number), the second part of my argument is that this has not been effectively encouraged. There are three broad indications of this. First, the infrequency of specification when citation is done anywhere adequately. (Which is problem it self – just take a romp through random article and see how many have more than urls for sources.) Second, the frequency with which the need for page numbers is questioned in various Talk Pages. Third, lack of specific authority or documentation that proponents of specification (page numbers) can point to; one is usually pointed either to WP:Verifiability generally, which is unsatisfactory, or to something like WP:Citing sources, where (as I said earliar) any expectation or obligation to cite page numbers is diluted with "usually" or "typically". Furthermore, the location of this minimal statement suggests it is a mere matter of citation style, and therefore entirely optional.

If that is accepted, then my suggestion is that the point needs to be made clear at the level of WP:V that the requirement for citation (the existing policy) means complete citation, including page numbers or other specification as appropriate. Comments? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) 20:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

reliable sources and list entries

An editor who has done some excellent research in creating the list of Christian hardcore bands seems to be of the opinion that a phrase in a single album review that loosely associates a band with a related genre is sufficient to adding that band or artist to this list. Some other editors feel that the music should be representative of the style at the time and that several articles, particularly of contested artists, should be provided.

Granted, most lists don't even have a single reference for the entries, so this article is outstanding. Could we have a few people step in on the article to discuss? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:02, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussing the RfC

The RfC is now closed. I thought that in cases like this it is up to the person who initiated the RfC (Blueboar) to close it, but I don't think we are going to attract many more comments.

But I am concerned that some people think it is an up-down vote. According to the policy, *"Requests for comment (RfC) is an informal, lightweight process for requesting outside input, and dispute resolution, with respect to article content, user conduct, and Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines."

• "RfCs are not votes. Discussion controls the outcome; it is not a matter of counting up the number of votes."

Well, we succeeded in soliciting a good deal of thoughtful comment. Apparently there is no consensus, but I interpret the comments to mean that (1) the current explanation of "Verifiability not truth" needs work and (2) Blueboar's proposal represents an important step forward. Nevertheless, it is still up to us to discuss how best to make use of the proposal. I believe that with some ammendments, we may be able to address most of the criticisms of the proposal, while also responding to the need for better clarification and guidance.

First, I think it is clear from discussion that V cannot be reduced to RS. Therefore, I would propose changing Blueboar's proposed first sentence to:

• The initial threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages represents significant views that have already been published by a reliable source. While verifiability is a requirement for inclusion, it is not a guarantee of inclusion. Misplaced Pages has other policies and guidelines that affect inclusion (especially whether specific material is included in a specific article).

The following paragraph links this policy to NOR. But V and NOR are only two of our three core content policy, each of which supports the others.

Second, I think that there is considerable support for "not truth" but a need to explain it more clearly. This is where there is a need to explain how this policy relates to NPOV. I think if we do this, we clear up much of the confusion over our long-standing slogan. Therefore, I propose adding to Blueboar's proposal a new second paragraph:

• The essense of this policy is traditionally summed up as, "The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth." Misplaced Pages does not claim that any of the views in its articles are "true," we only claim that they are significant views (which if need be can be specifically attributed), presented in a neutral way. In order to include a view in WP, we avoid arguments over whether they are true or false and instead seek to verify that they are indeed significant, and that we are giving each view due weight, and that we are providing accurate accounts of these views. And in order to verify these things, we look for reliable sources.

Some significant views make explicit claims about what is true or false, or what is fact or opinion, and we include these as views of the truth or the facts. We also avoid distinguishing between facts and opinions, because there are no universally held definitions for these terms, what some consider fact others may consider opinion, what everyone considers fact may turn out to be opinion tomorrow, and because the difference between the two is not black-and-white. Instead, we try to assess and acknowledge degrees of controversy. Some propositions are so uncontroversial that we can put them in without citation or attribution. Some things are so controversial that not only must we provide a citation, but a quotation and specific attribution. And between these two extremes may be many degrees. In all cases, it must be possible to verify the views expressed by the article.

Finally, in the new section that Blueboar crafted, I would suggest changing "Assertions of untruth" to "Assertions of inaccuracy" and generally consider changing "truth" or "untruth" to "accurate" and "inaccurate."

It is my hope that combining these proposals with Blueboar's will move us much closer to consensus, without abandoning the work and thought Blueboar put into her proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:45, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this the appropriate time to close?

• I object strongly to your reversion of Sarek's closure. There has been discussion, there is consensus by a very broad margin – and reversion rather than improvement is, frankly, disruptive. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

  Absolutely and strongly agree with Tryptofish. North8000 (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• I think it is clear that there was a fairly strong consensus in favor of making the changes I proposed (I would not classify the consensus as overwhelming, but it was a clear consensus), and I thank Sarek for closing the RFC and implementing those changes on my behalf. Now... does this mean we must stop working on the policy?... No, of course not. And if Slrubenstein wishes to propose further changes, he is welcome to do so. That's how a collaborative project like Misplaced Pages works. However,I would respectfully suggest that after almost 6 months of debate, and having finally reaching a consensus on compromise language, now is not the time to consider further radical changes. I think it best to let the issue sit for a while... see how the new, compromise language works in practice... and then, in a few months, we can return to the issue with some perspective and see if we can improve upon what we now have. Blueboar (talk) 22:30, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Blueboar, consensus does not mean "unanimus" but neither does it mean "majority" When one third of the people who responded to the RfC do not support the change, it is just folloy to make the change. But I do welcome your point that collaborative processes are ongoing projects. I proposed some changes to wht you wrote, and some additions, but I was also trying to wok with what you wrote. My changes were meant to respond to the comments of the 33% that SarekofVulcan ignored in making her changes to the policy. I understand that some people feel frustrated that, after months of discussion, we have not reached a consensus. But this does not mean that we look for some short-cut, to impose a change without consensus. There is wisdom in keeping the policy as it stands until we reach consensus for a change. Maybe a more efective approach is to break down your proposal to specific parts, and discuss each part separately — yes, I understand that your parts fit together, but the point is we have still not reached consensus and if the RfC did not reach a consensus, we should look for other processes that miggt lead to a consensus.

• • What you call "the new, compromise language" is a radical change. And I do agree with you that we should not be making radical changes. That is, we should not be making any substantive changes without consensus. The purpose of the RfC is to invite comments and we received many comments. Our guidelines tell us it is not a vote. our comments tell us that after we receive commnts, we should discuss the comments to see if they help us reach a consensus. Let's stick to our guidelines. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Tryptofish and North8000, I can't stop you from repeating, :I JUST DON'T LIKE IT. But your complaints would have some value if you would explain why you don't like it with reference to policy. I quoted the WP:Rfc guidlines. and I am also following our WP:BRD Principle. SarakofVulcan was pretty bold in violating our guidelines in closing the RfC and unilaterally changing the article. I reverted. Now let's discuss. But if you want to discuss, try providing atual reasons' based on policies and guideliness' I quoted the rules, above. You have yet to explain why you don't like editing according to our rules. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:33, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I am editing according to our rules. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• The RfC should stay open for 30 days, and there should be final push to make sure it is properly wiki-wide, as you promised it would be, Blueboar. Also, it should be closed by more than one uninvolved admin who is willing to read all the comments. SlimVirgin 22:34, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• It's been advertised wiki-wide, in the centralised discussion box, linked from here, linked from AN/I too I see. I'm afraid that I don't think waiting to raise this objection until after the discussion's been open for two weeks, extensively discussed and finally closed by an uninvolved administrator is appropriate conduct at all. We have a clear consensus.—S Marshall T/C 22:41, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• • If the close has been reverted then surely the subsequent edits to the policy should also be reverted? Roger (talk) 22:41, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• For what may be the first time I've ever agreed with S Marshall about WP:V, I agree with S Marshall. It looks to me like just two editors are popping up after discussion has been going on for a long time, with listing on WP:CENT, and discussion petering out, to stomp on what many editors have been discussing constructively. And there's an ironic symmetry, considering how some editors who have argued for change were not long ago told to shorten the discussion. But, that said, sure, let's discuss this some more. I doubt that consensus will really change, but there's no harm in more discussion. I say this as someone who was never enthusiastic about making a change, but as someone who also respects consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
• And it's been open for a lot more than two weeks. It opened on October 5. It will be the full month in just a couple more days. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• The timing of the revert and the sudden shift to purely procedural objections are fascinating. Now that it's gone this way, any attempt to close it before 5 November will be a violation of WP:WW, and the insistence on a multi-admin close increases the likelihood of dissent and a no-consensus close, preserving the status quo. It's frustrating, but you also can't help admire it, seeing this game played by a master.  :)

  But I don't think this can succeed. What's another two weeks? Consensus can change in that time, but I'd be amazed (and very, very suspicious) if there was a sudden flood of opposers now.—S Marshall T/C 23:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I first reverted the closing not because Sarekof Vulcan had closed permaturely (although this was clearly the case) but because Sarek closed in an inappropriate manner i.e. by stating her own interpretation of the outcome as if whe were an uninvold party. This is not the proper way to close an RfC on content. Uninvolved parties summing up the outcome is the procedure for RfCs on conflicts between two editors, not comments on changes to content. With changes to content, an RfC is typically closed thirty days after it was opened or earlier, if consensus has ben reached, and by the person who initiated the RfC.

It is clear that RfCs on content are not substitutes for reaching consensus. They are requests for comments from outsiders, in the hope that these comments will help people working on the talk page to reach a consensus. Once the RfC has closed, our guidelines tell us to discuss the comments, to see if they can help us reach consensus.

We have clear guidelines for how to close an RfC. I just want us to follow those guidelines. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• When you see an important RfC about core policy drawing to a close with fewer and fewer comments (suggesting people may not know about it), you ask for more input, you don't rush to close it early. SlimVirgin 01:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree with SlimVirgin. This is a crucial RfC about core policy that has not been announced widely enough. I didn't know about it until just now, and I've been moderately active. I'm sure there are very many editors that would be shocked this is about to change. --GRuban (talk) 02:05, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's still not being widely advertised. I added it to several other RfC pages, but the RfC bot is listing it halfway down all the pages it has added it to, because of the Oct 5 date. That is, even though it has been freshly added, the bot is reading it as an old entry. But I don't want to change the date and complicate things. So we do need to get the word out further. SlimVirgin 03:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• And now there's a sudden flood of opposers, and accordingly, I'm very suspicious. Response rates in opinion polls don't behave like this. In the three weeks up until this afternoon, we had 66 supporters and 31 opposers for an overall 32% oppose. This afternoon, after the definitely-not-canvassing measures we've seen, we have had 5 supporters and 8 opposers join the debate, or 61% oppose for that period. This could be a statistical fluke, but if it continues, I would see it as a very loudly quacking WP:DUCK for targeted off-wiki canvassing by an editor or editors unknown.—S Marshall T/C 03:27, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no off-wiki canvassing, and please stop these allegations. What happened is that people didn't know about it, because it was not advertised widely enough. SlimVirgin 03:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Slim, on Oct. 6th (the day we "went live" with the RfC) we advertised it at the Village Pump, at WP:NOR, and at WP:NPOV ... how was this not wide enough? What did I miss? Blueboar (talk) 03:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

You remember what we did for ATT? It was more that kind of thing I had in mind. Certainly at least asking the RfC bot to add it to more pages than just the policy one. And then following up several times whenever you saw comments drying out, to make sure people had seen your notices. And actually telling people in the notices what the RfC was about. SlimVirgin 04:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why you're confident there's been no offwiki canvassing, SV. AGF is not a suicide pact, it doesn't mean we have to turn a blind eye to the obvious. Blueboar's messages of 6th October led to a consistent 32% oppose rate. Today that's suddenly doubled. Therefore the messages are reaching widely different audiences. You don't exactly need to be Sherlock Holmes to see this, do you?—S Marshall T/C 03:59, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I find your alleged evidence of off-wiki stealth canvassing to be sadly lacking in AGF. Seriously lacking. Doc talk 11:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• That's not surprising, because it was seriously lacking in AGF. Seriously lacking. My assumption of good faith has been overcome by evidence of bad faith. SlimVirgin's consensus re-engineering exercise has been plain for all to see and she hasn't even tried to deny it. The shift since she did this has been noticeable: from 68% support for the proposal when Sarek closed, it dipped to 32% support among the votes immediately after her actions. (It stands at 59% at the time of typing.) This is not proof positive of offwiki canvassing, but it certainly activates my sniff-test. I do not allege that SlimVirgin personally was responsible for any offwiki canvassing, but I do believe that it has taken place.—S Marshall T/C 19:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

  To repeat a note I posted in another section, I am one of those who has recently opposed. I came here because of the watchlist notice and have no knowledge of canvassing actions by any editors. I think it likely that a substantial number of those recently supporting and opposing are here because of the watchlist notice. I would speculate that those who, like me, don't have WP:V on their watchlist are perfectly happy with the status quo and are hence more inclined to oppose what they see as significant changes. That could account for your observations. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• Going from a proportion of 8:5 to 5:8 does not seem a big swing - it just indicates that there's a soggy centre. Whichever way round the ratio is, it does not represent a genuine consensus. Rather, it indicates a lack of consensus. If, after all this fuss, we don't have a clear outcome, the matter should be closed as no consensus and we should move on. Warden (talk) 11:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

North proposed closing on the 26th and Sarek closed it on the 28th. That is NOT a lot of time to discuss how best to close the RfC. Maybe this is the time to close, but let's have some discussion before railroading a premature closure. Colonel Warden is absolutely correct: we do not have consensus. I think the real question is, which of the comments that we received raise constructive points that might help us to reach a consensus? This after all is the purpose of an RfC. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The notice was very broad. But folks who don't like the outcome will say that it was required to hire skywriters to post it in the skies of all of the major cities of the world. North8000 (talk) 13:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

No skywriters could be hired on this budget. It is, after all, run by volunteers. Doc talk 13:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I think Blueboar made a good-faith effort to publicize the RfC. But we have not reached a consenus. The purpose of an RfC is to invite comments from outsiders that might help us reach a consensus. As Blueboar points out elsewhere, the RfC mostly reveals that many people are uncompromisingly for getting rid of "Verifiability, not truth," and others are uncompromisingly opposed. Blueboar's interpretation means that the comments we received do not suggst a path to consensus. I word it this way not because I mistrust Blueboar, but because I have not read over all the comments carefully. I believe that the wuality of the comments is more important than the quantity - North8000, in her support, commented that many people express support or opposition without comments because the reasoning has already ben provided elsewhere. Well, that is a good point - but it still means we can disregard those people (on both sides, support and oppose) and focus on the comments that are constructive. I would still like to think that within all those comments, there are some that point towards a way to reach consensus, but Blueboar seems to think not.

This leaves us with a simple choice: (1) we continue the RfC and try to attract more outside comments in thehope that some outsider might actually make a constructive comment that could lead to a consensus involving people on both sides of the issue, or (2) we end the RfC for the simple fact that it is not helping. It was worth a try and I am glad we tried, but if it didn't work, so be it. Tht means we who watch this page just have to seek another path to consensus.

If the question is "remove/keep this iconic phrase" only divides us and does not point to consensus, I propose we change the question. I have suggested that we change the question to, "Can a better explanation of this iconic phrase address the concerns of those who don't like it well enough that we can reach consensus?" If no one else thinks this is worth trying, I invite people to propose other questions we can work on that might lead to consensus.

I have to say I am geting tired of some editors simply shooting down or attacking any suggestion I make. I am not here making any demands. I am making reasonable observations and showing that we have a number of choices in front of us. Is it possible for us to discuss thse choices in a reasonable and respectful fashion? I will agree to any choice people here agree to, as long as it points to the possibility of consensus rather than an attempt to intimmidate people into accepting any change to the policy that is not supported by a consensus. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:06, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

A few comments... first, if you have not done so, please read the rational that accompanies the the proposal. This RfC is an attempt to change the question away from "remove/keep this iconic phrase". And it is an attempt to create a "better explanation of this iconic phrase". You have made some good suggestions... and I agree that they should not be "simply shot down" or "attacked". But this RfC is designed to gauge project wide consensus on a different set of suggestions. Its a case of one step at a time. We can examine your suggestions once we determine what the consensus is on this proposal.

Second, may I suggest that you should actually read the comments. When you do you will discover that the "opposed" comments are fairly evenly split between those who think the compromise goes to far, and those who think it does not go far enough. What that split indicates is that the lack of consensus is among the minority who oppose the compromise. There is no corresponding lack of consensus among the majority who support it (ie the opposed comments tend to cancel each other out... which, I think should give more weight to the support comments). Closing an RfC is not simply a matter of counting heads (although a simple head count is useful information). Actually reading the comments is important. And when you actually read the comments, you discover that there is (currently) a much stronger consensus in favor of the compromise than a simple head count indicates. Blueboar (talk) 15:39, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's an accurate characterizations of the opposes. Who disagrees with who in the oppose column? Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

An 'oppose' is an oppose, no matter which direction it goes in. If you want to 'compromise', then a newly worded RFC needs to be put into place. Perhaps one that is actually a 'compromise;' instead of this inaccurately worded RFC...it's not a compromise. It's 'out with the old, in with the new". That's not a compromise at all. Dreadstar ☥ 23:56, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Any change, however minimal, amounts to "out with the old in with the new." People seem unwilling to discuss any proposals that move the phrase "verifiability, not truth" out of the lead. That's a legitimate position to have, but if it is honest it admits to an unwillingness to compromise, regarding that issue at least. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 00:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

You really need to read and understand the comments preceeding mine, there are two purported positions in the 'oppose' votes, that's where the compromise is being discussed but not in the 'official' RFC, which denies both sides that are being identified above. Both those purported positions are being ignored in favor of this "out with the old and in with the new" non-compromise. Dreadstar ☥ 00:19, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The compromise was between the folks who wanted "not truth" completely out of the policy and the folks who wanted the status quo on that. The statement about a division in the "oppose" folks was saying that there is a group within that group who support the core change but opposed the specific proposed change for other reasons. North8000 (talk) 09:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Shortcut

WP:NOTTRUTH has long been (and still is) one of many shortcuts to this page. After the close of the RfC, I changed it from going to the top of the page, to going to the new section just after the lead. I also put a template box in the new section, showing that it is a shortcut to there. Bob reverted my addition of the box. I fully understand, of course, that the issues surrounding "not truth" have been a matter of contention. (After the ongoing discussions, how could I miss it!) But I think there may have been some misunderstanding in that revert. It's just a shortcut, not a statement, and it refers directly to the language that is prominently featured in that section. Bob's edit summary suggested some other possible shortcut names, and I have no objections to adding those. Unless someone wants to start a deletion discussion for the redirect page, the link still goes here, so I see nothing wrong with telling readers that it does so. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I think a link to the section that includes and explains "not truth" is better. North8000 (talk) 19:04, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

So do I, but Bob has now changed the redirect so it goes back to the top of the page, which seems to me to be going from bad to worse. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:19, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Please note that although there was previously a redirect of NOTTRUTH to WP:V since 2007, NOTTRUTH was not mentioned as a shortcut on the Verifiability policy page until it was put there today.

Mentioning WP:NOTTRUTH as a redirect anywhere in WP:V would give the contentious phrase more support. The shortcut WP:ASSERTIONS that was recently added should be sufficient as a shortcut without having a shortcut based on the contentious phrase "not truth". Please remember that the title of the section is Assertions of truth and untruth. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, things are still in flux, because as of the time of my edit, the consensus of the RfC has been reverted. But thanks for, at least, explaining your position in talk. I don't buy the argument that the shortcut name does anything to give support to anything other than what the text created by Blueboar says. It doesn't mean "Misplaced Pages doesn't care about truth." It means simply that "Misplaced Pages's discussion of 'verifiability, not truth' can be found here." Having a shortcut is helpful to editors (including those who are reverting the RfC!) who want to point those who say "But my edit is the truth!" to the correct place on this page. In fact, my reluctant support for this proposal was very much based on the understanding that, if the discussion of "not truth" were taken out of the lead, it would still be possible to point readers to where it is discussed. Your current edit, , which I believe should be reverted, does nothing about what appears on this page. All it does is (assuming the new text is eventually restored) target the shortcut to the wrong part of the page, forcing the reader to look around for what they were looking for. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Bob, I think we share the same feelings on "not truth". But the IMHO new change puts it in a section which clarifies its meaning which reduces the problematic misinterpretations. My thought was that IF a wp:nottruth redirect exists, sending it to that more specific explanation would be less problematic that a redirect to the general policy which could be taken to imply that wp:ver overall is about "not truth". I could be wrong. North8000 (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

What we have now is the WP:NOTTRUTH shortcut shown on the page, but not directing to where it is shown. To me, that makes no sense at all. We can discuss whether the shortcut should be shown on the page or not, but I think it's nonsense to have it direct to the wrong place. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually we should not "discuss whether the shortcut should be shown on the page or not" because removing it would cause thousands of instances of the shortcut on talk pages and in edit summaries to become meaningless redlinks. Roger (talk) 21:20, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you, although I suppose an argument could be made to keep using the shortcut, but to just not display it in the box on the page. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I definitely agree that the shortcut WP:NOTTRUTH should point directly to the section: Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Assertions of truth and untruth (as that is the only section of the policy that discusses the issue of truth.)

Lets be logical here... any previous links to WP:V using the shortcut WP:NOTTRUTH were made with the intent of pointing the reader to the phrase "Verifiability, not truth"... as that phrase has now been moved to the "assertions" section (and more fully explained), it makes sense to redirect the shortcut there as well. And, we should list it in the section shortcut box so people know it exists as a shortcut. Blueboar (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Oppose addition to policy  Previous evidence over the course of this year has shown that it is not possible to just say "not truth" without massive ambiguity.  On the last day before the RfC, Blueboar objected to the characterization that was being used for the quote, "not truth", in the Rationale; and changed the characterization to "the two words".  So there is already history to guide us.  The current choice is whether to add a massively ambiguous phrase to the policy in an infobox, albeit without the context that would demonstrate ambiguity; or to leave it unreferenced in the policy.  I see nothing close to a compelling reason to add something to the policy that already has a record of associated misunderstanding once it is given a context.  Since is already taken, maybe we can find something else, for example, WP:VnotT.  Unscintillating (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Temporarily close the RFC, give people the time to read and discuss and then re-open the RFC

SlimVirgin has been posting notifications about the RFC, asking people to vote soon because the RFC is going to close in days. I think there is a problem here. This invites people to vote based on their gut feelings instead of considering the discussions and thinking deeply about the issue. Particulary the people who would rather keep the "not truth" statement will feel that all is not lost if they are quick to oppose.

But this would undo all the work that BlueBoar has put in to find a good compromize. There is nothing wrong with opposing if you have considered this compromize seriously and then still come out against. But I don't think this is going to happen. We have to remember that an RFC simply on removing "Not Truth" was held previously and that doesn't have consensus, instead you're then stuck in a 50-50 quagmire. The consequence of that was never ending discussions on the talk page.

So, I think the best thing to do is to close the vote for week to allow for new discussions and then re-open the vote for, say, two weeks. Count Iblis (talk) 01:39, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I would rather suggest that we ask some completely uninvolved editors/admins to help us sort out what to do--anyone who has participated in discussions should probably just sit tight for a bit until we can get some feedback. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Iblis, its not like we're discussing rocket science, world peace, or the G-Spot here. It is just a discussion about a policy change in an electronic encyclopedia. I am quite confident in people's ability to read the RfC and weigh in with an informed opinion in less time than it takes to boil an egg. Tarc (talk) 01:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

An RfC is not a vote. It is a discussion. It does not have to be closed for people to discuss. --GRuban (talk) 02:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

In this case, we have discussed, and discussed, and discussed... for almost 6 months now... the RfC was essentially a poll to see what the broader community thought of the compromise that came out of those endless discussions. I would say that the results (as of Sarek's closing) showed that the broader community approved of that compromise. The oppose comments seemed evenly split between a) those who disliked the compromise because it went too far, and b) those who disliked it because it didn't go far enough.

In other words, if we actually read the comments (instead of just counting heads)... the opposition was split between the hardliners who want to keep the "V not T" phrasing in the first paragraph, and the hardliners who want "V not T" completely eradicated. I think this would have been clearer if I had set the RfC up as a three way choice... but I had promised Slim Virgin that it would be a "change or no change" choice, and I do try to keep my promises. Blueboar (talk) 02:24, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

That was not my understanding, BB. You promised a wiki-wide RfC, and a separate section that said "keep the current lead sentence," and listed it. It was very important for neutrality to list that as one of the positive choices people could make. See our discussion here. It was after that that I bowed out of the situation, and only when I saw Sarek try to close it today did I realize that neither of these things were done.

I'm sorry to say these things to you. I know you worked hard on this, but I think this was not well set up, not properly advertised, and it was closed early by an admin who had expressed a view on the key issue during the RfC itself. So this is unfortunate all round. SlimVirgin 02:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

No problem... I don't take criticisms personally. I am sorry that you don't think the way I set this up matches your understanding of what we discussed. All I can tell you is that I saw the way I set this up as being what we discussed. In any case, you could have spoken up sooner about this you know. You knew this RfC was in the works well before we went live with it... The phrasing of the RfC and the rational were extensively discussed on the sub-page... so you had plenty of opportunity to "remind" me of what we discussed, and object to the way things were going before we "went live". As for promising you a wiki-wide RfC... that is one promise I definitely kept. This was (and I suppose still is) a wiki-wide RfC... exactly as promised. It was also well advertised - at the Pump, at NOR, at NPOV (see the archives of those pages for October 6th). Blueboar (talk) 04:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

When I see "wiki-wide RfC", I immediately think Centralized discussion. Did you add it to CD? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Cunard added it to {{cent}} on 6th October, so it's been linked from the box at the top of all the centralised discussion pages since then.—S Marshall T/C 10:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, let's see. SV, you were aware of the discussions and I'm surprised that you did not even look at this for the last few weeks--when I've taken breaks from these discussions, I have not completely ignored it. I'm assuming good faith, but Blueboar has a good point that you did have plenty of time to make your concerns known and did not do so. I am also confused by your assertion that there is no "keep the current lead sentence" option--since the proposal is for a specific change in the wording, and lack of consensus or consensus against a change is, de facto, that option. You do have a point about the closing, and I do see that this may take multiple uninvolved admins to achieve a close that will not piss off a very large number of editors. And in general I'm very concerned about some of the heavy handed discussion that has suddenly emerged in these last hours. I find it very frustrating that a process that involved so many editors trying their very best to put forth something that might be an achievable compromise for so long a period of time should be criticized at the last for not having done it right, when there was ample opportunity to make those concerns known early on. But so be it, water under the bridge, and we have to move forward.

The RFC has been advertised widely, and I think the last minute rush is not helpful. Discussions took place over months, and discussion had pretty much died down. It has just been advertised widely again, but I think it unlikely that the editors that have come here in the last few hours have really had sufficient time to look through the discussions and thoroughly consider the various points, and it is certainly the case that the there has not been time look through their thoughts and weigh them.

So, I propose that we let the RFC run for at least another two weeks. That will give everyone time to go through the arguments, weigh the options and we'll see what happens. It addresses the assertions that the RFC is for discussion of general issue (with which I strongly disagree given the length of discussions prior to the forging of the RFC and during the forging of the RFC and the simple fact that the RFC was specifically tailored to try to put these extremely long discussions to rest), and allow time for amelioration of any possible canvassing. If the center is soft, as CW asserts, we have more time to find that out, if consensus is really against the proposal, the extra time should make that clear, and if the needle swings more to the change side we'll see that and have a better notion of what to do. But I think a close after a sudden rush of additional voices would be a bad thing. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

There are two different issues here and they should be discussed in separate sections: (1) was the RfC advertised sufficiently widely. (2) when should we close it. The guidelines say that it should be closed after 30 days or sooner, by Blueboar, if we have reached consensus. If we agree that it should be advertised more widely, then I would agree to delaying the closure.

But I am more concerned with the fact that, as Blueboar points out, there is no consensus on the key change. It does not matter whether we have discussed it one month, six months, or a year - if we do not have consensus, we do not change the policy.

But I would like to propose a constructive alternative: if there is no consensus about removing the phrase "Verifiability, not truth" perhaps we can keep it in the opening but come up with a clearer and explanation of the principle with more practical guidance about how to apply it. After all, Blueboar's proposal was not simply to remove the phrase from the lead. It also included more explanation. I do not entirely agree with her proposed elaboration but I DO think her effort to provide a better explanation was important and points to an alternte path to consensus i.e. do not remove the phrase, but improve the explanaton.

If efforts to reach a consensus have failed, it just makes sense to try another approach, and that is all I am suggesting. Either way, we won't change the policy without a consensus. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The RFC was clearly and explicitly on making a particular compromise wording change. North8000 (talk) 13:35, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Um... Slrubenstein... when you say I pointed out that there is "no consensus on the key change"... what are you talking about? I agree that there is no consensus to completely remove V not T... but that isn't what this RFC is about. This RfC is about my compromise language that explicitly (and in bold letters) retains V not T. As of the (perhaps premature) closing, there was clearly a consensus in favor of the compromise. Blueboar (talk) 14:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Blueboar, I apologize. I think I misread what you wrote. I thought you had pointed out that many people are adamantly for getting rid of the phrase and many are adamantly for keeping the phrase. But if this is not hat you man, I was wrong (and I struck out the mention of your name). For me, the larger point is that we didn't reach a consensus.

The purpose of an RfC is to invite outside comment, in the hopes that it produces a consensus or points to a consensus. We have not reached that consensus and I thought that you had noted that we did not receive any particularly constructive comments, constructive meaning reaching a consensus. But if you did not mean this, I apologixe.

I recognize that your intention was to find a compromise. I hope nothing I have ever written expressed otherwise. I just do not think that there is a consensus for your compromise. That is why I see your compromise as a starting point but one that we must continue to revise ... until we reach a consensus (this is my view, but I think it follows the guidelines for RfC and for editing policy pages). I hve tried to propose changes to your proposal that builds on your tempt to reach a compromise, but by tacking a bit in an attempt to move foreward. If my suggestions are not constructive, I hope others will make more constructive suggestions.

What is clear is that our RfC guidelines say that when the RfC closes, we are to discuss the comments. If the comments help us find a consensus, great. If they do not help us find a consensus, well, we just try to find another approach.

None of these comments should be read as questioning your intentions or the importance of your efforts. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:15, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe any of us involved in the discussion believe that the compromise will address all concerns, nor that it will fix the policy in stone. As you say, many people are adamantly for getting rid of the phrase and many are adamantly for keeping the phrase, and this proposal is an attempt to bridge those groups. I guess that some of us, and certainly this is my feeling, are a more than a bit frustrated by this last minute bruhaha just as things appeared to be winding down after months of work (and I did not do nearly so much work as Blueboar, North8000, and Tryptofish and other editors who have been deeply involved for a very long time). And from my point of view, characterizing this RfC as a beginning after so much preparation and discussions seems odd. For example, your suggestion, if there is no consensus about removing the phrase "Verifiability, not truth" perhaps we can keep it in the opening but come up with a clearer and explanation of the principle with more practical guidance about how to apply it was one made a number of times, but rejected by those who find the phrase problematic, and that's why the first part is not in proposal, but the second part is. Any number of us supporting the proposal disagree about the core issue, but have come to agree on a compromise to attempt to satisfy others with whom we do not agree, in order that we can move on to other issues, or further refinements of wording.

But given where we are, I repeat that I think we should let the RfC run a while longer, in order to avoid even the appearance of any intention in this recent increase of activity to push the conclusion one way or another. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, I thank you for striking. Here is my take on the situation... leaving aside the issue of whether Sarek closed prematurely or not, I think he had justification for saying that there was a consensus at the time he closed. First, a strait head count indicated a 2:1 majority in favor of the compromise under discussion. While not overwhelming, this is more than just a simple majority. Second, if we go beyond just a simple head count, and actually read the comments, we discover that the opposed comments were (at the time) fairly evenly split between those who think the compromise goes to far and those who think the compromise does not go far enough. This indicates that the lack of consensus is among those who oppose the compromise, and no lack of consensus among those who support the compromise. I think there is a very good argument for saying that, to some extent, the opposed comments canceled each other out. This lack of consensus among the opposed comments should, in my mind at least, give more weight to the comments of the majority who support the compromise. We had a solid agreement among the majority who supported and a split in the minority who opposed. In other words, I think that when we actually read the comments, there was (at the time) a much more solid consensus in favor of the compromise than a simple head count indicates.

Now, the decision has been made that the closure was premature and that the RfC should remain open for a few more days... the consensus that existed when Sarek prematurely closed may indeed shift between now and then. But, at the time that he closed I think he was justified in saying that there was a consensus. Blueboar (talk) 16:25, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

From my reading of the comments, "Everyone" agrees that 'verfiability, not truth' is the goal of this policy, they just don't agree on how to say it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO the events of the last day or two has seriously damaged the inegrity of the process. Editors and even admins appear to be "gaming the system" to unduly influence the outcome. A huge amount of effort and thought by a large number of participants in this process has basically been trashed. (I am expressing a serious concern here, not directly accusing any specific individuals.) Due process must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. Roger (talk) 17:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

How has the integrity of the process been damaged? It's a wiki, that anyone can edit. More editors are now involved in the discussion. When it is closed, then that will likely be the text for awhile, whatever that is. Eventually a (temporary) consensus will be reached, even as to this. There can be no "premature" close, even if one were to try. But that IS the process of a wiki. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Not if it is properly closed: Not yet consensus; come up with a draft incorporating the good ideas in the comments. See SIRubenstein's comments above. When we have genuine consensus, we will also have consensus that there is consensus - and so no vitriol on how to close it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree a "more lasting consensus," is by defintion the result of a "proper closure." Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Our definition of consensus is "Decision by consensus takes account of all the legitimate concerns raised." The agitation here comes alarmingly close to claiming that none of the editors who commented with less than total support have legitimate concerns (and that comprehends several of the supports, as well as the opposes).Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps. That is what some are saying. Regardless, my question was, how was the process damaged? I take it your response, is that there was a premture closure. But that was reversed. So more people are now discussing the merits. So, it seems the process is working. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

If you think the discussions here the last few days were bad, you should have been here over the last 8 months. In regard to the RfC and the preparation for it, I think that Alanscottwalker is correct that the vast majority of edits agree about the intent of the policy, but there's a sharp division between those who believe that the phrase 'verifiability, not truth' helps and those who believes it hinders implementation of that intent. But I do think that closing at this point will serious damage the notion of that the RfC did or did not demonstrate consensus. Some object to the early close, some object to the reopening. I think SV's posts to other noticeboards the last couple of days completely misrepresented the intent and wording of the proposal, although I'm assuming that was sloppiness and not ill intent. And I completely agree with Blueboar when he says there was "a solid agreement among the majority who supported and a split in the minority who opposed", and that consensus existing when Sarek closed. Roger's point about due process is also well taken, and I would like to see the discussions continue in order to avoid even the appearance that there might have been attempts to game the system in this case. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The past is the past (and is not really interesting to me). But as for the future, since you agree with Blueboar, and I don't see it, can you detail who disagrees with who among the opposes? Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

For example, Fish and karate (talk · contribs) wants it to just say "For inclusion in Misplaced Pages, all information must be verifiable." Period. Dreadstar (talk · contribs) thinks that "truth, not verifiability" is a perfect way to get a key point across. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

And both agree that the proposal does not help. This reasoning, that all must oppose exactly the same way and the support can support in a multiplicity of ways is faulty. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Both oppose, period. Try to find an actual compromise in an RFC, eh? This RFC is in no way a compromise, despite it's incorrect titling. And Sarek, I don't think you should be closing any RFC, much less one on Policy. Dreadstar ☥ 00:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

(left) The place to work out a compromise is in the discussion which precedes the next RFC. It is fairly clear what the reservations of the hesitant supporters and the persuadable opposition are; they can be met. Clearer wording may also leave fewer editors with the impression that this is a change in policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Gaming and consequences

I was unaware of this discussion until today when I logged in and saw the thread at AN/I. From an outside perspective I think there has been irrevocable damage done to the process of discussing this change as a result of an editors gaming the system. I don't think there is a problem with naming names and I think those who have disrupted this process need to answer for these shenanigans. An administrator, who I have myself been very critical of in the past (so I'm not saying this out of some allegiance, trust me), gave up his tools because of the spurious accusations made by SlimVirgin in an obvious political effort to counteract the clearly developing consensus in the RfC which wasn't going her way. For shame.Griswaldo (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Your side issues with Slim Vigins conduct, whoever that is, don't belong here. You didn't name names, you named one. Yet, you smeared "editors." Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

"whoever that is?" Seriously? It's the editor who wrote the language in this policy that the RfC suggests modifying, and who started the AN/I thread I linked to above in a transparent effort to derail the changes she clearly didn't want to her own writing. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Seriously. Whoever that is. Your issues just don't belong here. If want to analyze an editor or administrators conduct, take it to the appropriate forum. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:06, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

You've stated your opinion about that several times now. I don't agree. How many times do you need to me to tell you that? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

When you respond with a reason, then we can move on. You want the people on this page to, what, exactly? And what, exactly, is the consequence for the policy this page is suppose to be about? Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The consequence is for the RfC, which now cannot be taken seriously anymore. You clearly don't like that idea for your own reasons, whatever those are, but that's the consequence of the damages done by SlimVirgin.Griswaldo (talk) 22:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

What does "the consequence is for the RfC" mean? What happens, do you suppose, because of that? Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

My point is that the process is damaged and it is due in particular to one editor's actions, which are pretty transparent (I do think that people who are complicit are also to blame but I'll edit my comment to remove others from it ...). Call it smearing if you want, report me for "smearing" someone if you want as well, I don't care. I think it is important to consider these events here where the damaged process is occurring. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

How is it important to this policy, does it promote consensus on wording here? Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It is important to know that what is going on here is a product of gaming. It is important because decisions will be made here regarding how to proceed given what has happened. Are you suggesting people should pretend that SlimVirgin hasn't done what she did and that this hasn't damaged the process and that we should just carry on? Because that's exactly what I hope people aren't going to do here. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:35, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) is directly in contradiction with Misplaced Pages:Canvassing

However canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is considered inappropriate.

Specifically characterizing the debate as 'contentious' is not a neutral way to present the RfC, additionally posting on AN/I for a request to close looks alot like forum shopping since a request to close had already been made at WP:AN. Crazynas 19:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

How should we carry on? What's the remedy? Do we have any choice but to carry on? Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I was also not aware of this RfC, and honestly with WP:V being as important a policy as it is, it should have gotten one of those site notices. If it did, it should have been bigger.--Crossmr (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

That matches my thoughts on this. I see no harm, canvassing or gaming done by SV here. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Mine too. Dreadstar ☥ 22:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with both of you and I think it's a major problem. When an involved user doesn't agree with the result, then they don't normally get to unilaterally revert a close, extend the debate, change the language used to advertise the debate, change the debate's title, and post urgent messages seeking input from more editors. I wouldn't get away with that behaviour. Why should she?—S Marshall T/C 10:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

You're misinformed and confused about the purpose of an RfC. It isn't a timed discussion like a vote. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't make SlimVirgin's conduct appropriate, does it?—S Marshall T/C 10:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Before we judge people's actions, let's look at the standards against which we judge them. There are two critical issues here. The first is, what do we mean by consensus? I know it does not mean unanimity, but I have never heard of a 2:1 vote described as "consensus," not in politics and not at WP. The second is, what doe we do when an RfC ends? Our WP:RfC guidelines says, discuss the comments. So on can just as plausibly scharaterize SarakofVulcan's ending the RfC and changing the policy without any discussion as "gaming" the system. RfC's usually close after 30 days. I had no objection to closing the RfC earlier and I said so, but I also expected a discussion that would include more than four or five people before deciding on a closing date. I also think that it makes perfect sense to alert people in advance that an RfC on a policy is going to close, and not doing this can also be a form of "gaming the system." Maybe SlimVirgin could have handled things better, but I do not see an effort to solicit more comments to be "gaming" the system. If SlimVirgin's efforts attract only silly, thoughtless comments, well, we just disregard them. But if more people provide any more constructive comments, that is a good thing.

Let's keep our eyes on the ball. We have a contentious issue and I am not the only person who does not see a consensus. We can close the RfC if we think it is not helping - but come on, let's do it after discussion that includes more than four people, and let's give people some notice - three days, five days, whatever. If there is a better way to handle this than the way SarakofVulcan AND/OR SlimVirgin did it, well, let's just discuss it and come up with a better way. We can do this without attacking either one (when I reverted the change to the policy I never accused Sarak or anyone else of gaming the system, I just think they made a mistake. However we close this let's do it in a deliberative way. And before we do it, let's try to solicit as many comments as we can. The whole point is to try to move towards a consensus. If we do not attract any more constructive comments, well, that is regrettable. But if we get more WP users to comment on changing a policy? Why not? That is the point. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So, if I have this straight, there has been "irrevocable damage done to the process of discussing this change as a result of an editors gaming the system" because "the process" was finally brought to the attention of a very broad audience, as was promised from the beginning, but not actually done until a couple of days ago? And the "editors gaming the system" has done so by actually ensuring as many Misplaced Pages editors as possible know about this? It seems fairly obvious that the conduct of the ""editors" should be lauded, rather than condemned. Jayjg 19:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to object to: "but not actually done until a couple of days ago" ... when we opened this RfC back on Oct. 6th, I posted notices at the VPP, several other policy talk pages, CENT, and in as many other locations as I could think of ... the RfC was (as promised) widely advertised. Am I upset that the RfC has now been brought to the attention of even more people? No, of course not. What upsets me is the manner in which those people were notified, and the games people have been playing in an attempt to sway opinions (changing the title of the RfC, leaving notices that misrepresent the intent of the proposal, and generally trying to bias new commenters against the proposal before they have taken the time to actually read and understand exactly what is being proposed.) That does upset me, and comes close to causing "irrevocable damage". Blueboar (talk) 01:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

changing the name of the RfC

I noticed that at WP:V an editor had modified the link in "Under discussion".  I backtracked the problem to find that SlimVirgin had changed the name of the RfC yesterday.  I have corrected the name of the RfC both on this page and at WP:V.  FYI, Unscintillating (talk) 20:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Please don't change it again, Unscintillating. Lots of pages have been notified using this title/link. If there is insufficient notification of this RfC, it will be invalid, so please leave it as it is, and let people comment on it. SlimVirgin 21:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

SV, Please see WP:TPOC at WP:Talk page guidelines, "Editing...others' comments is sometimes allowed. But you should exercise caution in doing so, and normally stop if there is any objection."  Unscintillating (talk) 00:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

SlimVirgin you changed the title 2 days ago. What gives? Did you consider the links that had been made prior to your change? You do not own this page. I find your behavior here quite disruptive and would please ask you to back off the ownership attitude. It isn't clear to me what the more productive title is at this point, but please recognize that you're bullying people to get your way. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:45, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Very few notifications were published about the RfC when it opened, but yes, I did republish in those places, to make sure people know where to find it. There is no bullying here (at least not by me). My concern is to make sure people know this is taking place, know what it's about, and have a chance to comment. It concerns me that anyone would object to that, given that lots of people are saying they hadn't seen any notification of this. SlimVirgin 21:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

You did not answer the question. Why did you change the title of the RfC? Regarding what you did write, lots of people don't see the notification for lots of discussions. So what? It has been pointed out to you that it was listed at WP:CENT since the second day after opening. Not particularly convincing SV. But that's also not what I asked, and what this thread was about. Why did you change the title, and what makes you think you have the right to do that and to enforce your changed title, weeks after the RfC started?Griswaldo (talk) 21:59, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO several aspects of what Slim has done on this in the last few days have been problematic. Inventing and unilaterally "enforcing" new rules just because she didn't like the outcome. Edit warring to erase the talk page closure text even when it was left as reopened, inaccurate descriptions of the potential change posted an numerous prominent places, unilaterally undoing the closure, unilaterally undoing the change which was clearly the overwhelming majority view with or without closure. I have not run down the latest yet, but apparent retroactive renaming of the RFC. Why has nothing been doing about this behavior? North8000 (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• I find the new RFC title to be more accurate and informative than the old one; after all, "verifiability not truth" is the core of the issue. I have to add that less than 70% support for a Policy change does not fit Sarek's close, Consensus requires a "higher standard of participation and consensus for changes to Policies and guidelines than to other types of articles." Less than 70%, 75% or even 80% is certainly not a 'higher standard'. For example, Bureaucrat elections have an 85% support threshold - how can major Policy changes have any less? Dreadstar ☥ 22:39, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

That would have been something to bring up a month ago, not now. It appears to be an attempt to push the RfC in a particular direction, as does the wording of the advertisement that SV posted. I'm still assuming good faith, but these actions are poisoning the discussions, not helping them. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:35, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I had no idea there was an RFC on this a month ago; and yes it needs to brought up now just as much as a month ago or a year ago. If you find SV's wording on the "advertisement" to be problematic, then make a suggestion on how to change it to be more neutral. There's no doubt that this RFC should have been far more publicised than it was. Dreadstar ☥ 22:39, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

There's no need to, Blueboar did a fine job of that. My point is that instead of acting in a way that was clearly above board, SV has acted in a way that could be interpreted as trying to push a POV. Edit warring over the title of the RfC is a similar action--what discussions took place establishing consensus about that change? SV has complained about Sarek's close because he was involved. She's at least as involved as he. This is a touchy subject, and admins running about like bulls in a china shop are not helping matters any. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuujinn (talk • contribs) 23:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I dare say the new name is much more straightforward and helpful. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what name is better. The RfC was ongoing, for three weeks when she changed it without discussion, and without regard for any links that might have existed already. I was not aware of this RfC either, but then again I'm not aware of tons of RfCs that go on. Am I supposed to blame the RfC creators or commentators for my own ignorance despite their best efforts to follow standard procedures to get the RfC out there? Clearly not. Do you really condone the unilateral action of one editor to change the name of an ongoing RfC and then to edit war to keep that name change in effect, three weeks into an RfC that has already received boat loads of comments by others who all seemed fine with the title? I highly doubt you believe that is correct as a general principle, and SV has no special privileges in this regard over the rest of us as far as I know. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd think I "condone" building the encyclopedia, which always comes first. V not T is one of this website's core policies. I'd go so far as to say it's one of a very few beams which holds the whole thing up, so to speak. I don't see any bad faith here, but somehow, not nearly enough editors were made aware of this discussion over the wording on such a highly meaningful policy page. Come to think of it, I unwatched this page many months ago when all I saw as it (often) flashed by on my watchlist was bickering. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The RFC title does indeed count, the old one was inaccurate and uninformative, through no fault of Blueboar's, it was obvously done in good faith. But the edit warring to keep the inaccurate title in place is not good faith and is just plain old gaming. There's been no reason given for not accepting the change except, "ILIKEIT". That's fine, enjoy. Dreadstar ☥ 23:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding "publicized" it was:

• Thoroughly publicized on several pages at wp:ver, not only when put up, but for several months prior to that as the RFC-in-the-making as it was developed
• Listed in "centralized discussion"
• Listed at the Village pump
• Listed at several other major policy/guideline pages.

As opposed to when the "not truth" wording (which this proposal merely moves) was put in when it was put in by one person with no request for comment or discussion. North8000 (talk) 23:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

You know that's not true, North, so it's odd that you keep repeating it. The phrase "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth" was not thought of by me, not first added by me, and was discussed on several pages by several people in 2005 before being added at all. And you know this, because you've been shown the diffs many times.

The policy on this page seems to have been "repeat personal attacks often enough and they will become memes." Well, it worked as far as my presence on this page is concerned. You managed to chase me (and several others) away from it, after nearly seven years of helping to maintain it. I returned only because I saw a poorly advertised and worded RfC being closed early by an admin who had expressed an opinion about the issue when the RfC opened. That seemed manifestly unfair, so here I am again. But not for long, so you needn't worry about my continued presence. SlimVirgin 23:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I must confess that on that last point that I was going by summaries of the history by others rather then personal knowledge. But in any event, how does the degree of input and advertisement for the insertion compare with that of the current RFC which merely moves those two words? North8000 (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The discussion of one editor's conduct (in one instance many years past) is not productive. The substance of the objection to the change was that it was different, and some links would not work, and the response was that it was more descriptive and those links were fixed, to, in fact, work. So, can we get back to discussing that, if such is needed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I've inserted an anchor {{anchor|RFC - Proposal re first sentence}} into the top of this RfC so (if I did it right) links using the old title will find it. I agree with the new title. I didn't notice this until the title was changed. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussion about removing the word "compromise" from the title

We have two headers now, but I'd like to remove the word "compromise", in line with Anthony's anchor, as this was one of the problems with the RfC. It's not a compromise. North8000 et al want to remove "not truth" from the lead, and this does that. So the title is misleading and I would say POV. SlimVirgin 23:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I think you make a fair point. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "compromise" should be removed since it clearly is not that. Dreadstar ☥ 23:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

What exactly was North8000 et al's position prior to Blueboar's RfC? If it was something more radical like, let's say, removing that phrase from the entire entry, then of course this is a "compromise." I'm new to this discussion but I've never known Blueboar to play fast and lose with words like this so I'm having a hard time imagining his RfC proposal not being some kind of mid way point between two different positions. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 00:08, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So this is now a 'compromise' between North and Blueboar? Interesting. This is out with the old, in with the new. That's not a compromise, I'm sorry. Dreadstar ☥ 00:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure the working group that came up with this proposal (with which I agree, by the way) have put it forward as a compromise, but the word is loaded, it implies something about "a position that all reasonable parties will agree to" which is inappropriate for an RfC question. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The long term difficult discussion that this compromise seeks to resolve is between complete removal of "not truth" from the policy vs. the status quo regarding that. The compromise was to keep "not truth" but move it to the next section with clarification. North8000 (talk) 00:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

PS: Blueboar "reached across the aisle" on this. North8000 (talk) 00:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Then let Blueboar once again 'reach across the aisle' and change the name of the RFC as it was originally discussed, yet seemingly ignored, and has since then been opposed. Dreadstar ☥ 00:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think their point was you aren't making a compromise for everyone, only yourself; you (all) are, in fact, proposing to do something to policy, for everyone. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Well said, Alan. Dreadstar ☥ 00:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, the word 'compromise' is loaded and not neutral, it should not be part of the wording of this RFC per WP:RFC. Why is this such a difficult concept?? Dreadstar ☥ 00:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• It arguably poisoned the first run of results, because by saying "this is a compromise," you're implying that people opposing it are unwilling to compromise. In addition, several editors asked that any RfC contain "keep as is" as a positive option in a separate section, so that people could vote in support of current policy, rather than in opposition to a "compromise." So this really has not been handled neutrally, in my opinion. The creators of the RfC seem to want to hide, in the title, and in the description, that it's about removing, or drawing attention away from, "verifiability, not truth." But why hide what you want to do, if you think people will support you? SlimVirgin 00:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• I removed "compromise" per the above; a compromise between North8000 and Blueboar has no bearing on how RfC respondents should or will view the proposal. SlimVirgin 00:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:TPOC at WP:Talk page guidelines, "Editing...others' comments is sometimes allowed. But you should exercise caution in doing so, and normally stop if there is any objection."   Unscintillating (talk) 00:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

What other editor's comments were edited? AFAICT, the only thing that was edited was the heading, which is acceptable per Section headings: Because threads are shared by multiple editors (regardless how many have posted so far), no one, including the original poster, "owns" a talk page discussion or its heading. It is generally acceptable to change headings when a better header is appropriate. In this case, the new heading was far superior to the original. Dreadstar ☥ 00:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Changing it 3 weeks later generally is unwise and I certainly object to doing so. Hobit (talk) 03:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The reason that we do not editor other edtior's comments on talk pages is because we do not want to misrepresent the view of an editor. As Dreadstar points out, section headings are generally not used to express one editor's views, they are not signed, and we often change them in refactoring or to clarify the discussion that follows. But the key thing is, the name of an RfC is not supposed to represent any one person's view. We prohibit changing people's comments on talk pages i.e. that which comes before their signature because the change misrepresents their views. Are you and Unscintillating and others suggesting that the name of the RfC was Blueboar's "view?" Slrubenstein | Talk 11:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The compromise wasn't between me and Blueboar. It was put out by Blueboar as a compromise between the two groups there were locked in an multi-month debate on this. North8000 (talk) 09:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Replying to Dreadstar, as per the section you cited at WP:TPOC, "Section headers" is listed as an example of "other editor's comments".  Unscintillating (talk) 10:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I was unclear, what I meant was were any other editor's comments besides the header edited by someone else? Editing a header is fine per WP:TPO, although questionable when it is reverted back to a poorly worded one - as this one was. Dreadstar ☥ 17:19, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a way to make this a less rancourous discusion? The purpose of announcements is to attract as many outside comments as possible and WP:AGF means we assume that people will comment on the substance of the proposal, which Blueboar posted at the top of this page. We should assume that all comments are on the proposal itself. We should all be able to agree that Slim Virgin's announcement was made in good faith as an attempt to more widely publicize the RfC. We should assume the same about Bluboar. Misplaced Pages's procedures and policies (like AGF like NPOV) are all based on the premise that editors with a common purpose, acting in good faith, can have different even conflicting ways of achieving this purpose. In fact, there may be no single bst way to achieve our goal. I realize that some people here are not upset about the actual announcement but the way it was announced. My point is, these arguments seem petty. We would all make more progress if we agreed that we all want to attract as many diverse comments as possible. There is no ned to defend Blueboar, or to justify the original way this was announced, because Blueboar did nothing wrong. And the fact that Slim Virgin had another way of doing it doesn't mean that Blueboar was wrong. At Misplaced Pages, different ways of doing things does not have to mean "right" versus "wrong." People on both sides have already said defensive or inflammatory ways. If you guys want to go on attacking and defending one another rather than discussing how best to improve articles or policies, so be it but I am writing this with the hope that ir might provide an end to this thread and enable everyone here to move on to more productive activities. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO Blueboar's actions all along have been very cautious, seeking consensus at every step on even the smallest of items, and have not even been in question. North8000 (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that we want to attract as many diverse comments as possible. There are better things for most others to do. The change debated here is not a major Policy change. It involved no change in policy, just a change in the presentation of consistent policy. It is mere semantics. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:27, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

North is correct above that there was real compromising between large groups, and many efforts were gone to, in order to ensure that it was so. Discussion took place over a long period, and there were even votes on many smaller points, which gave all participants a feeling for what opinions were most strongly held. That was the background to the compromise. Many people with widely varying ideas described Blueboar's compromise as a compromise, including people who did not like it. If that is not a compromise what is? What's more SlimVirgin was aware of that whole discussion. Why does SlimVirgin only participate in this matter on the basis of legalistic procedural claims and actions?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

"compromise" is a point of view about Blueboar's intentions. I happen to hold this point of vieww; I do think Blueboar's intentions are to forge a compromise, and that her proposal is in her view a compromise. In fact, it is my view that the proposal is a compromise, even if it is one that does not satisfy me. Nevertheless, that I view it to be a compromise is a particular point of view, that not everyone responding to the RfC may share. I don't question Blueboar's intentions, but I don't think that one's intentions are a particularly informative way to describe an actual proposal. After all, as collaborative editors aren't our motives or intentions always to seek some kind of compromise, or at least, often? Slrubenstein | Talk 12:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Slr ... huh? Please don't descend into this level of postmodern relativity, because then communication becomes impossible. I agree that this has nothing to do with intentions, but I don't see anyone else claiming that it does in the first place. I see people judging the results of Blueboar's actions and saying that they represent a compromise between two large camps of people with different POVs. If you agree with that assessment you agree with it. Leave it at that. Don't admit to agreeing with it if you don't want. That's fine too. But of course it is a human judgement, as anything we could possibly understand is. This was clearly a compromise. You might not like it, but that doesn't change what it is.Griswaldo (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Well said. And what you said is extensively established by the zillion words of discussion over many months. North8000 (talk) 12:52, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

"Postmodern relativism?" Wow, I honestly don't know where that is coming from. And Griswaldo, if you are saying I did not express myself clearly, okay. First: I agree that Blueboar's intentions were to come up with a compromise. I do not think it is an appropriate or effective compromise. But it is beyond me why you think I am incapable of criticising the proposed comrpomise while appreciating the genuine effort at compromise. And if anyone thinks that this is a disingenuous statement, well, screw you - it is possible to appreciate someone's intentions while disagreeing with their proposal, and if someon thinks this is not possible at WP then it means they do not understand AGF. Second: I agree that Blueboar's intentions were to reavch a compromise, but I do not think that this is relevant to describing what the proposal is. We ned to describe the substance of the proposal in a phrase, not Blueboar's intentions. If you do not see the difference between these, or do not think the difference matters, well, then we do not agree. But do you really think my position makes communication impossible? I think that shows a failure to AGF. And I do not see this as a difference in some kind of metaphilosophical stance. I just think that when publicising a request for comments on a proposal, we should try to describe the actual proposal, not the intentions of the person proposing it. The latter is just spin (and if anything exemplifies postmodernity it is the rise of spin over substance). Now, you may think SlimVirgin's description of the RfC proposal was not a good description of the proposal. Maybe you would prefer "Proposal to remove "not truth" from the lead" or something else. Fine. A discussion over the best way to describe the substance of the proposal is constructive. But we should leave intentions out of it. Are we communicating, yet? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Slr, I'm sorry if in frustration I expressed myself too aggressively. Sincerely I am. My point was simply that the argument you put forth is not productive. You at once recognized that in your own judgement this was a compromise while undermining your and everyone else's judgments as mere POVs. That's all I was trying to say. If you meant that you didn't think the end product was a compromise but only that Blueboar's intentions were to accomplish such then I would argue you were not being clear - you wrote: "it is my view that the proposal is a compromise, even if it is one that does not satisfy me." We are discussing the objection to the word "compromise" and I think that arguing that it's a bad word based on the notion that we're all making judgement calls about this leads down and endless road of relativism to me. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

You post modern relativist, you. Don't you know there is truth to be told. :) At any rate, I think some distance is advisable for most commenters in the recent hours. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I have reverted the title back to its original (with the word compromise)... Whether my choice of wording in the title was flawed or not no longer matters... changing it at this late date breaks notification links going back to Oct. 6th when we went live with this RfC. Blueboar (talk)

Thanks, Blueboar.  I have worked through SlimVirgin's contribution list immediately after her change to the name of the RfC, and notated the correct name where the incorrect name has been posted.  WP:V is now page protected until November 3, and editors at Template:Centralized discussion have received a block warning if incipient edit warring resumes over the WP:V RfC name.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

description of the RfC at Template:Centralized discussion

Seeing that SlimVirgin changed the name of the RfC on this page, I started to wonder if there were other confounding edits taking place, and I had to look no further than WP:CENT to see:

• RfC about revising the first sentence of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability by removing "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth".

Fortunately, someone else had spotted the problem and beat me to fixing it.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So lets look at what has been done to this RFC in the last 2 days

• Closure was reverted by someone
• Change as a result of the closure was undone by someone
• Proposal was renamed after 3 weeks, and the change retained by edit warring rather than discussion/decision
• Someone put notices out at the pump and 2-3 other policy pages incorrectly stating that the proposal removes "verifiability" from the lead of verifiability
  • Not true Slrubenstein | Talk 12:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
    • At the Pump it says: "There is an RfC here about whether to remove from the lead of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability that "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."
    • At wp:nor and wp:npov it says: "There is an RfC here on whether to remove from the lead of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability that "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." North8000 (talk) 12:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Ah, so you recognize, she did not incorrectly state that the word "verifiability" would be removed, but rahter correctly state that the phrase "verifiability, not truth" be removed. You do understand the difference between a word and a phrase, don't you? Look them up, they are in the dictionary! Slrubenstein | Talk 12:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
    • The actual text is now there. Readers can now decide for themselves whether the statement about the RFC is accurate, and whether my statement about the statement is accurate. North8000 (talk) 12:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Slr, SlimVirgin may not have intended to suggest that "verifiability" was proposed for removal, but since she said that the entire string, "verifiability, not truth" was proposed for removal, as opposed to only "not truth" and didn't clarify that the first word was to remain, North8000 and others have a very fair criticism here. What SlimVirgin wrote implies what North8000 says, and reasonable intelligent people would have thought that "verifiability" was proposed for removal since she didn't say otherwise.Griswaldo (talk) 13:05, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
        • Okay, you are right. Look, we all make mistakes. North wonders how we might "prevail" and I hope North means "prevail in improving the policy." I admit that this requires us to catch mistakes or errors in judgment. But it also requires some tolerance for errors in judgment and an understanding that working together often requires zig-zagging. I think I was reacting to what I perceived as a failure to AGF in this thread. But you are right Griswaldo and I appreciate your taking the time to explain it this way. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
• Though there never was a hurry (and no mention of a 30 day rule when the question of closing floated for 2 days), someone promulgated a 30 day rule after the closing.
• Opposes have gone from zero for three days in a row (and a total of 2 in five days) to 18 in one day (and 23 in a 36 hour period) despite not being posted in any new venues except I believe wp:npov.
• Someone modified the proposal itself, deleting the statement of proposed action
• Someone modified the statement at centralized discussion to incorrectly say that the proposal includes removal of "verifiability" from the lead of wp:verifiability

If this type of thing prevails, then what kind of a place is Misplaced Pages? North8000 (talk) 11:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

what kind of a place is Misplaced Pages? Nomic? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you could explain how does this topic helps improve the situation? Absconded Northerner (talk) 11:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

IMHO sunshine on what has been happening always helps. North8000 (talk) 12:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not sunshine - it's just another place to argue, as can already be seen above. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Why are we fucking about with all these half-measures? We should just change the RFC title to something like "Proposal to wreck Misplaced Pages by destroying the lede of WP:V!" We should also make sure that everyone gets a chance to participate by individually messaging everyone who's ever edited Misplaced Pages with a neutrally-worded notification, such as "Quickly! Rush to WT:V to vote down the evil proposal from Hell before it gets closed the wrong way!"—S Marshall T/C 13:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

If you truly think that this is what is going on, I have to wonder whether you are capable of assuming good faith. I this really the only intention you are capable of ascribing to those who do not accept the proposal, or those who would like to attract more comments on the proposal? You seem to be villifying everyone who disagrees with you. And then projecting on to them your fear that they must also be villifying you. I hope I m wrong, but your words sem pretty hysterical. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Slrubenstein, I've been able to contribute calmly to Misplaced Pages for many years now. I've rarely been so angry as I have been about everything that's happened since Sarek's close, but this time, I am. I'm absolutely bloody furious. I have an awful lot of time and effort invested in this change that I've put in over a very, very long period, in the face of bloody-minded obstructionism at absolutely every single step. I've been accused of many things during that time, and I've taken them all calmly and in good part. And now, at the final hurdle, we have this. You're right: I can't assume good faith here. I've seen far too much evidence of bad faith gaming of the system to assume good faith. I hate this. It makes me seethe. I also hate the smugness of telling me to assume good faith while they do this.

  I need to stop posting and log off.—S Marshall T/C 14:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I arrive at this point from exactly the opposite direction from S Marshall ... I am one of those bloody-minded obstructionists he talks about, being a strong supporter of the "V not T" concept remaining in the policy. (While I do think the compromise presented in this RfC is an improvement, I am perfectly happy with the current language) ... and yet I find myself as just as upset by what has occurred over the last two days as he is. My assumption of good faith has been severely strained by the shenanigans that have been taking place on this page since Sarek's closing. I won't go as far as accusing anyone of deliberate misconduct in an attempt to influence the outcome of this RfC (what little good faith I still have prevents that)... but there sure as hell is an appearance of deliberate misconduct. I don't really care what the final outcome of the RfC is... but I do care (a lot) about how that final outcome is achieved, whatever it is. What has been going on for the last few days stinks to high heaven, and needs to stop... now. Blueboar (talk) 17:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

What Blueboar just said, that's exactly what I think too. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

VERY interesting. North8000 (talk) 18:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• I'm still not thinking coherently about this, but I do want to thank you two for that attitude, which is helping to restore my faith in most Wikipedians. How would you feel about a RFC/U? Worthwhile, or likely to be drowned in wikipolitics?—S Marshall T/C 18:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess the short answer is both of the above. My advice would be to sit back and wait until this present RfC comes to whatever will be its close. This isn't the first time I have been deeply, deeply concerned, to put it mildly. But it's always a good idea to take a deep breath, sleep on it for a few days, and then make a decision when the smoke has cleared. (In the mean time, be of good cheer! I'm far from convinced that the eventual outcome is going to be changed from where it was a day or two ago.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:12, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Notice how the "Support" votes have received an extraordinary boost as well. The supports are now in triple digits: but I'm not going to cast aspersions on anyone. Doc talk 04:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

An attempt at another starting point

Quite some time ago another editor wrote:

Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so. If this strikes you as somehow subjectivist or collectivist or imperialist, then ask me about it, because I think that you are just mistaken. What people believe is a matter of objective fact, and we can present that quite easily from the neutral point of view.

This was obviously with reference to NPOV. But it seems to me that the first sentence is what motivates many people who support the "Verifiability, not truth" phrase (the third line, too). I do not want to propose anything specific, since my last attempt to propose specific wording (above) gained no traction. But I would like to invite everyone to consider how our Verifiability policy does and should be a support for the approach stated above (NPOV is our one non-negotiable policy, so it seems to me that it is always a good starting point for thinking about our policies). I propose the following: Verifiability is not only meant to prevent OR, it is also meant to provide guidance for people who want to add encyclopedic content in the spirit of the above conviction. I see V as a lynchpin, the guarantee that content added is "encyclopedic."

Blueboar sought to craft a compromise, and I think it is still worth discussing his compromise proposal and the comments it has attracted. So this is not meant to negate Blueboar's work. But some editors have said that we have been discussing this for months without reaching consensus, so it seems to me that nw ideas cannot hurt. That is why I am forewarding this - perhaps this provides another direction, from which we can reach a compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

A common implied statement in nearly everything you say is to sidestep that this proposal is for a specific set of changes, and that this proposal already IS a compromise proposal. Also to imply that the results do not show a consensus, and to try to discount or negate this whole RFC and the months of work that led to it. North8000 (talk) 11:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with North8000. I have often found Slrubenstein's comments such as the one he has posted immediately above to be helpful and thought provoking. I would even say that for me the better ones help justify my support of Blueboar's proposal. The Blueboar compromise is not a major change of policy, it is a compromise, and it is very widely agreed with as a wording improvement. It has jumped through a lot of hoops to get where it is. To claim otherwise is at least a minority position compared to most people who have discussed these points at length.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:05, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

North8000 keeps identifying herself with Blueboar's efforts at compromise — and then does everything possible to derail or stifle any other discussion, a tactic that is itself uncompromising, inransigent, and disruptive. You are just firghtened of anything that might move discussion away from the ay you want it to move. It must frutrate you a great deal that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit.

Andrew, if you think that Blueboar's proposal is consistent with the above that is great! As I said, I am not forwarding it along with nay specific proposal, but rather as a point for more productive discussion. Maybe if you can convince many of those who oppose Blueboar's proposal that the proposal is fully consistent with this, it will lead them to change their opposition to support &mdasn; I cannot speak for them of course. Maybe others can propose other changes to the policy that along wtih Blueboar's will attract more support. Maybe not. But the fact is, we do not have a consensus. And the fact is, RfC's are supposed to be followed by discussion to reach a consensus. Whatever the actual outcome, my only intention is that the above quote might help move us closer to a consensus. So, thanks, Andrew. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, I have a great deal of respect for you, and you are a thoughtful person, so I have to ask if you have been following the discussions here closely over the last three months? I will not seek to explain North8000's frustration, but I think it is fair to say the Blueboar, North8000, and Tryptofish formed a troika which manage to get use to the RfC and keep the discussion during the RfC until this week focussed and reasonably calm. Andrew Lancaster's description is spot on--my efforts in these discussion have been to not allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good, and to work for improvement in the wording. Please keep in mind that, for example, North8000 and myself have fundamental disagreements about the value of the phrase "verifiability, not truth", yet we agree that this is an improvement. North8000 has been instrumental keeping discussions on track.

Discussions should continue, but there the appearance that some admins have come in at the last minute to attempt to push the RfC in a particular direction. And I feel that some, acting with good intentions, have managed to set us back in terms of the nature and quality of the discussions we have had here the last 2-3 months. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I am a little disturbed by our use of the word "troika." There are many editors whom I respct who both opposed and supported the proposal and sometimes I think it would be great to get four or five of them together to work out a compromise that would hey presto please most people who watch this and other policy pages. But this is just not how WP works.

I wonder whether we agree about the meaning of "keeping discussions on track." If you mean kieeping discussions on track until we reach a consensus that supports Blueboar's proposal, I flat-out do not agree: no "track" should be towards a predetermined outcome. If however by the phrase you mean that we should keep moving towards some improvement to the policy that will have widespread support, well, then, yes I am fully for that.

I agree that the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good but I also belive we should not change policy without consensus. Perhaps we agree on this too.

I have also said repeatedly that I believe Blueboar's intention was to craft a compromise that would help move us towards consensus. The fact that I acknowledge that his efforts were to craft a compromise does not mean that the specific proposal is the compromise I support. A lot of other editors feel the same way. As I read your post, I am just not sure whether you are suggesting that "a proposed compromise" = "the compromise." In my view, they are not equal.

I do think that we have differing interpretations of different recent edits to the page. I think editors on both sides have made errors of judgment. I do not question the good faith of any of them. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I may not have been clear enough, let me try again. The three editors essentially mediated discussions between numerous editors who have legitimate and strong disagreements about the wording of the policy, worked to achieve compromise wording which sought to address the concerns of many editors on both sides (those who wish to remove "verifiability, not truth" and those who wish to keep it). You can see those discussions in the archives here and at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/First_sentence, and anyone who wishes to understand how the proposal came about should review the latter pages, although it is a lot of reading to do. That work helped achieve enough consensus to the proposal together and to start an RfC, and that's the track to which I refer, not a specific wording or goal. Prior to their efforts, we'd loop around an around the same issues and not make any progress forward, and that had been going on for months with no apparent progress. I think without their good work, we would not have gotten that far. And yes I think I see your distinction between "a proposed compromise" and "the compromise" but I don't think I feel that as strongly as you, since I know that whatever wording we agree upon today will be changed sometime in the future--nothing is immutable here. Clearly some editors oppose the proposed wording for various reasons, and that's fine--the policy will not change without broad consensus. I hope that helps clarify my views. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Nuujinn, this does help, and it certainly relieves the concerns I raised. I have one point to make - I am not trying to stir up new arguments, I just want to make sure my position is clear. I acknowledge and appreciate the work people put into coming up with a proposed compromise. But I do not view an RfC as the process by which a compromise is ratified, or not, by the larger community. As I read WP:RfC, it is a means to invite comments from people who have not been involved in the discussion. Yes, I am others who have been involved in the discussion commented, but the real purpose of the RfC is to draw in the comments of others. This can reveal an effective consensus, or it can reveal continued divisions. Hopefully, either way, it will also yeild comments that will help move us towards a consensus &mdah; but the whole point is to attract new comments that make new points and raise new issues. In the case of this particular proposal, the RfC shows that people are divided among those who like the proposal, those who are adamantly opposed to "not truth" and those who are adamant that it belongs in the first sentence. I do not see a consensus for change. I understand that this will disappoint many, but I just do not se a consensus for change. I do not view 2:1 as consensus, as Dreadstar pointed out Bureaucrat elections require an 85% vote and we should have at least as high a threshold for changing policy.

WP is designed to attract large numbers of editors from diverse backgrounds. Frankly, I think WP will fail unless it can attract increasing numbers and numbers that are increasingly diverse but I suspct it is inevitable that such a large group will find it dificult to agree on many things. In my experience, articles improve not when editors spend months and great energy trying to forge a compromise, but when compromises and consensus arise out of discussions within a few days. The main function of our policies is to ensure that such diverse people are able to collaborate together. For as long as I have been here, a lot of people have said that the quality of articles will not be legislated by policy but will depend on our ability to attract enough people with complementary knowledge or research skills i.e. will depend on our editors. And I do think our policies for the most part work. Yes, I deinitely think they can be improved, but I also know a lot of editors don't like my proposed improvements which believe it or not I have put a lot of time and thought into. But, if people don't like my proposals, I am not going to fight for them. WP will roll along. I have seen people put a lot of work into an article, and a couple of years later not a single word remains.

This is a fundamentally conservative approach. The requirement for consensus makes it hard to change policies. It is not easy to ammend the US constitution either (in fact, far far more dificult, but I hope you get the point of the comparison). I really do agree with the principle that perfect cannot be the enemy of the good, but I also think that if Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit and we have over a million registered users and over 1,000 are active and over a hundred, maybe even over 200, really do care about our policies, we have to accept the fact that a great number of people may not be entirely satisfied with them. I guess you are applying the principle "the perfect cannot be the enemy of the good" to the proposal, and I am applying it to this policy as currently worded. If a strong consensus naturally emerges for a change to this policy it will happen. But the bias is towards the status quo. If someone puts a lot of work into creating a consensus and it doesn't work, well, they should just redirect their energies elsewhere - disappointment will be understandable and inevitable but there is certainly no shame in it. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

A conservative approach, with which I entirely agree. And please note, I'm not fighting for a change in the policy, I think the policy is fine as it is myself, nor am I arguing that consensus has been achieved--I think when Sarek closed it, there was pretty clear consensus for the preferred wording, but since then, others have chimed in to the discussion, and we're not at consensus now, and we all know that consensus can change. I support the proposal because I believe it addresses a number of valid concerns raised by editors with whom I disagree, and the wording as proposed meets my concerns well enough, and that it represents a good compromise. There may not be consensus for the proposal, and that's fine with me. We've chatted about this a good bit, and I think you're thinking I'm holding a position I don't really hold, and I'll try to be more clear in the future so that we will not misunderstand one another.

That being said, I'm arguing against the assertions that the RfC was not well advertised, that North8000 or any of the other editors involved in developing the proposal did anything wrong or insufficient--indeed, this the proposal and the setting up of the RfC were done with extreme care, and although nothing is perfect, it was very well done indeed. Bureaucrat elections require an 85% vote and we should have at least as high a threshold for changing policy--I don't agree with your reasoning there, as elections determined by votes and RfCs are not, but that's a minor point-as you've said to me, the number of !votes does not matter nearly so much as the quality of the arguments, and I agree with you there. And I am applying the principle "the perfect cannot be the enemy of the good" to both the proposal and this policy as currently worded.

There have been a number of what I consider to be missteps in the process the last few days. I think that some of the recent advertisements were poorly worded and misrepresented the nature of the proposal. I think the reopening was poorly handled. I think that changing section headings this late during the process is an extremely poor decision, especially without prior discussion. Now there appears to be a rush by some (not you) to push the RfC to a non-consensus close. One admin basically said they would take anyone who disagreed with them regard the nature of consensus to dispute resolution--that's a very strong statement to make. I've seen diverse editors work together over a long period of time to reach a potential compromise, all acting in good faith, and now I see some admins (not you) ham handing the work of those editors, and that's troubling to me, and I think it works against the spirit of WP you expressed above. Things are very heated now, and I everyone should just slow and take real care in reading what others are saying. It appears that things are calming now slowly, and I hope that continues. Given the missteps, I think it's important to take extra care in proceeding. I hope that all makes sense. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

It all makes perfect sense and with the exception of what, in principle, we mean by "consensus" I think I agree with most or all of what you say. I think that whatever date is given for closure, it should be announced on the same pages as the RfC was announced, in advance. I wish that Blueboar could come up with another name for the proposal; I understand why BB objected to the wording that SV used, but I think SV's intention was a name that better reflected the substance of the proposal. People who were closely involved in crafting the proposal understandably see the proposal as a compromise among them (or an attempt to articulate a compromise between others) but when advertising an RfC, which is a deliberate effort to solicit outside views, we have to consider what it is that they would be interested in commenting on, and I think that people who would not be interested in commenting on a compromise between two groups of editors would be interested in commenting on a proposal to make a change to a policy, o I think the bst name is one that summarises the change. When SV invited other suggestions, JN466 virtually restated the whole proposal. The choice between the vague "a compromise" and a reproduction of the proposal, is a false choice — it is important that different editors agree the name is neutral, and it is important that it be as informative as possible. I know Blueboar made a good-faith effort to achieve just this when first naming the proposal, but if we can come up with a new name that BB would agree is accurate and neutral, and is more informative, even at this late date, that surely would be a good thing. I think that it should be as widely publicized as possible; I think Blueboar made a very good faith effort to do this, and I think SV was lso making a good-faith effort to publicize it even more widely. Using a bot seems pretty neutral to me and I think accusations of canvassing were unfair. In any event, it does seem pretty clear to me that the people who showed up in the past two days were attracted by the AN/I report; this is not canvassing but just evidence that editors watch different pages and, as we all have real jobs and families, do not alway slook at changes to pages they watch. I do not want to be more specific about what should be done, my hope is only to show that we can agree about how it should be done.

But we may really disagree on the final matter: when Sarak closed it the first time, it was my firm belief that we had not reached a consensus. more comments might or might not lead to a consensus. But my understanding of RfCs is that when it is closed we still need to discuss the comments and it is to those of us who actively paricipate on this page to reach a consensus. RfCs are not substitutes for the editorial policies but supplements, aids. Maunus has addressed this in comments below and I don't really have anything to add to those comments. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

We may indeed disagree in this particular case, but that really doesn't concern me much, as we agree in principal regarding how consensus is achieved and gauged. People do disagree, and what is more important than the fact that they disagree is how they deal with the disagreement. I do fall into the immediatist camp--I'd much rather go ahead and make a change that has reasonably well argued as an improvement, with the knowledge that we'll immediately revisit the wording to make further refinements. And if the consensus is there's no consensus, I'm fine with that, as whether there's consensus is also a matter of consensus (otherwise, we'd just have up or down votes, yes?). My experience with RfCs in article spaces and the RfC/Us is that the discussion after the actual RfC is generally limited and a change implemented or not, but I personally don't see a real difference in actual practice with what you're suggesting and what I have seen done, since, as I've said, nothing is immutable. So from my point of view, there's not really that much difference between RfC-change-discuss and RfC-discuss-change, since any change will likely soon be followed by further discussion and any discussion followed by further changes. --Nuujinn (talk) 23:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

latest edits to the October 6 RfC without previous discussion

latest edits to the October 6 RfC without previous discussion, links to WP:V

I have reverted an erroneous edit made to the October 6 RfC.  This edit made it appear that it is part of the proposal to add WP:NOTTRUTH and WP:ASSERTIONS as new shortcuts to the policy.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

This edit removed the erroneous material.  The edit comment was:

Undid revision 458075713 by SlimVirgin (talk) reverting erroneous representation of proposal

This edit restored the erroneous material.  The edit comment was:

Undid revision 458115832 by Unscintillating (talk) what is wrong with this? It simply allows people to see what both versions look lilke

The answer to the question was being written even as the re-revert to restore the erroneous material was taking place.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

other edits to the Original RFC

Unscintillating has just drawn my attention to this October 13 edit (by WhatamIdoing)... I believe WhatamIdoing's edit was made in good faith (as an attempt to summarize a complex RfC into one sentence... apparently so a bot would be happy), but the edit mis-stated the proposal. Had I caught that edit at the time it was made, I would have objected and corrected this error. (To add to the confusion... yesterday, Slim Virgin signed my name to WhatamIdoing's edit ... not sure why... In any case, I have reverted the RfC language back to what it was when we started the RfC.

My guess is that none of this will change anyone's opinions or comments... but I wanted to point out what occurred in case it does. Please DO NOT EDIT THE ORIGINAL RFC without discussion and consensus. Blueboar (talk) 13:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the additional text, but I copied your sig higher yesterday for the RfC bot. Otherwise it will reproduce the whole thing, because it just copies whatever is before the first signature.

Okay, I see someone has removed the title yet again, which breaks all the notification links, and restored the "compromise" wording that we agreed here on talk to remove. This is getting very silly. Would whoever did that please revert themselves? SlimVirgin 14:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

For future reference, the bot requires only a date stamp, not a username. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:17, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

EVERYONE MUST STOP PLAYING GAMES HERE - I returned the title to its original... there were already notification links (dating back to Oct. 6th) that pointed to that original title, and changing it from the original broke those links. Blueboar (talk) 14:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, when that issue was discussed yesterday, the response was all the links to whatever title had been fixed and none were broken, using and anchor and redirects. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So now fix them back to reflect the original title, that should never have been changed in the first place. The argument Slim made that you are repeating amounts to ... "I stole your house, but you can't move back in now because I called the yellow pages and changed the name on the address to reflect mine and not yours." Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh my. She stole a house? At any rate, I didn't change them and I think someone named Anthony did. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Blueboar, we agreed yesterday (discussion) to remove the word "compromise" because this is not a compromise with the community. Wide latitude is given to the person who opens an RfC, but several people agreed that "compromise" is POV and should be removed. Also, you broke all the recent notifications by changing the title again. Your old links were not broken because Anthony had added an anchor. SlimVirgin 14:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Who agreed?—S Marshall T/C 14:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Blueboar proceeded so cautiously that even the title of the proposed RFC was proposed and up for discussion for many weeks before the RFC.

Broken links can be handled with the {{anchor}} template—and since most of you here already know that, I'm not included to believe that your real complaint is that the notification links are breaking. If you've got substantive concerns, please state them outright rather than focusing on the trivially solved problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Guys, we have to deal with the technological realities here. This is what you're currently advertising as the RFC question:

Does that look like a useful question to you? Do you think anyone will have any idea what this RFC is about? Do you think anyone is going to respond to that? (Nevermind that what Blueboar would actually like to post violates WP:RFC's direction to supply a "brief" statement of the issue: nobody's seeing any sort of sensible statement at all, much less what Blueboar would like them to see.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we close the current RfC and start a new one with neutral title and a brief statement of the issue. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not happy...and nor should anyone be (Close and start afresh)

User:Blueboar has removed a quite significant chuck of prominent material earlier, claiming, absolutely correctly that he did not place it there. It is prominent material and likely to influence readers. I reversed this on the basis that, whether or not it should have been there, it has been there sufficiently long that it could have influenced those who have read it and have left support or oppose comments based partly on it. Blueboar has removed it again, stating his personal opposition and outrage “I strongly object. to this addition.. I did not write this material, nor was it present for half the time that this RfC existed”. While I agree with the sentiment I'm not happy with it's sudden removal - mid-discussion.

This entire discussion is reaching the level of a farce. I fail to see how any !votes made since the contentious material was added and since it has now been removed can be considered. The picture is altered significantly enough by the addition and removal of the disputed content. I’m not happy that this discussion has any validity. It should be started again with a clean slate, proper community notification and a routemap for implementing any changes that result from it. Leaky Caldron 14:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Leaky... there was proper community notification from the start... The day we went live with this, I posted notification at the Village Pump, at WP:NPOV, at WP:NOR. The community responded to this notification... look at the date stamps on the comments... the RfC received over 50 comments on the very first day (and another 50 within the first week). Blueboar (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I think at this point we should all fall back on AGF, even if we don't necessarily feel it.

• Blueboar acted in good faith when he created the title with the word "compromise" in it, thinking of the compromises made on this page, rather than thinking in terms of a wiki-wide RfC.
• North8000 and Blueboar acted in good faith when they asked for early closure, because they believed comments had dried up.
• Sarek acted in good faith when he volunteered to close, because he had forgotten he had commented, or didn't see it as a comment that made him involved.
• The editors who reverted the closure acted in good faith because they (we) disagreed with the early closure.
• I acted in good faith when I posted additional notifications, because I wanted to make sure more people knew about it.
• Slrubenstein is acting in good faith by continuing the discussion.

Please let's agree on the above, or at least act as if we agree, for the sake of moving forward constructively. SlimVirgin 14:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually Blueboar's compromise was made after several RfCs. There is also a problem with the logic here. Continuing discussion is fine always of course, but I think what is disturbing people is that there is also another thing taking place. Discussion can go on concerning future ideas for improvement, as it always does, without trying to demand that nobody else is allowed to do anything else, and without trying to erase or deliberately misconstrue what has already been discussed.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a consistent theme of the wording of the "let's move on" / "lets discuss more" statements has been "let's ignore the RFC" and its many months of work. North8000 (talk) 15:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

What I'm proposing is that we AGF, regardless of any details. It is at times like this that AGF is at its most useful, when good editors have fallen out with each other, and we need a strategy to keep us on track. So I am going to do it from now on, and I apologize to everyone for not having assumed good faith during this discussion. SlimVirgin 14:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Slim, I'm happy that you are willing to AGF when it comes to the actions of other editors involved here. However, please do not ask others to put aside the serious concerns that have been raised about your behavior because of that, or perhaps more importantly the damage done by that behavior, which remains whether or not you acted in good faith. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

What damage? That more people became aware of the proposal and are now discussing it? ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect Maunus Slim's posts presented the RfC in a way that was completely inaccurate, by suggesting a much more extreme proposal than what was there. These posts were also made along with accusations of impropriety by the closing admin. The net effect was to suggest that a group of editors were managing to subvert core Misplaced Pages policy while no one noticed and by way of all kinds of shenanigans (none of which is true clearly). And who am I to make this observation? Someone who had no idea this RfC was ongoing until I encountered all of this and had to figure out what was going on. Also, mind you, as someone who has been an outspoken critic of Sarek when it comes to WP:INVOLVED. You can imagine what my first thought was when I saw the AN/I ... he's at it again. Well as it turned out he was not at it. Someone else was at something quite different. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

What damage? If any other result of this RFC is not to close it as it was properly closed by Sarek, then it's a fraud. Because of the actions of SV and a few others(mostly admins) who have taken this basic RFC and turned it into not only drama, but wheel warring, canvassing and pushing other editors who have worked hard on this out of the picture. This whole process is now corrupted and I would support sanctions against those responsible. I don't know the exact venue that needs to be used, maybe some more experienced editors do. The actions that lead up to this point, after the close, are infuriating. Absolutely infuriating. Dave Dial (talk) 16:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That makes no sense. You can see that there is no consensus for the proposal - whether there was so three days ago is utterly irrelevant, since consensus can change. What is mysterious to me is how people can even argue about this - it is obvious that the change does not have consensus and as such it cannot be instated, procedure is completely irrelevant to that fact. Even if we accept Sarek's closing that would only mean that an RfC would be filed immediately with a new consensus bound to appear. It is quite sad to me to observe how people are apparently forgetting that this whole process is about achieving CONSENSUS not about pushing one's favourite policy through at any cost.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a "favourite policy" I'm trying to push. I haven't voiced my opinion on this as of yet. Also, if you believe procedure is "completely irrelevant", what are the rules for procedure even there for? Also, many here have a distorted view on consensus. This isn't a RFA, it's a RFC. Since this was brought to ANI I have went through and read what many editors have done to try and build consensus, only to be circumvented by that outrage at ANI. There was a much better way to ask for more time, but after that happened the reopening and votes afterwards are spoiled. The process was corrupted. Even if a new RFC is opened and the results are overturned, it's a much better outcome than the current course. Dave Dial (talk) 17:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know of any policy stating that Consensus means something different at RfCs than at RfAs. Consensus is consensus. I was not referring to your favourite policy, but to the fact that most people who appear outraged at the close being reverted were the proposers themselves (Blueboar excepted - since he has in fact been one of the most reasonably behaved persons in this whole mess).·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Every case is different, we have to judge each case in its relevant context. In this case, the issue is that the way the first sentence is formulated is leading to resistance from many well etablished editors for various reasons. Then a proposal for changing it led to a 50-50 stalemate, and that clearly is not a good basis to implement a change. So, at that stage, the lack of consensus meant that things stayed as they were. But because there wasn't consensus for the status quo, indeed the raised problems were not resolved, the discussions on how then to move forward were very much alive.

The problem with this was that many of the supporters of the staus quo didn't like all these discussions, their opinion was that the people who want to implement change had their day in court and they lost, so they should now shut up. But obviously, that is not a good argument to close discussions when the support for the status quo is 50% at best. It is at this point that Blueboar stepped in, working with a few others to come up with something that would have significantly more support than the current version. He has been successful in this, many who previously supported the old version have supported the new version.

So, given the history of this debate, the conclusion of the RFC should be that the new version is a far better basis to make further improvements from than to stick to the old version. Suppose that new discussions to make furhter improvements were to go nowhere, we will at least be stuck at something that has a lot more support than the current version, the support for which has dropped to well below 50%. Count Iblis (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That is actually a very reasonable argument - there does seem to be consensus for change, although this precise proposal does not have strong consensus. I think this should lead us to explore more options to build a proposal that can sway people from the "oppose" camp, most of which I don't think are against change, just this particular change.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:05, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Wikispeak#AGF. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that the general feeling is that what has been done to the RFC in the last 2-3 days is not right. To me, a proper and fair and by-the-rules process is everything. As can be seen many times even in this page over the last 11 months, when the process is proper, I am at 100% at peace with the outcome even when it is the exact opposite of what I wanted. But when I see what has been done to the process over the last 2-3 days, (in my mind it is an attempted corruption of the process to achieve a particular end) to me it is an issue that is important enough for me to shed my blood over to get a proper process for the sake of Misplaced Pages. If we don't have that, we're like Somalia. Well, there's a look inside of my brain on this! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So you prefer that we accept Sarek's close and that I proceed to establish a new widely advertised RfC to propose the reinstation of "not truth"? It is obvious that consensus is not for the proposed change. You supporters should be working on how to improve the policy to take care of the problems you perceive in a way that can garner consensus. Not on lawyering a procedure to pass a change that doesn't currently have consensus.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

@Maunus, you saying It is obvious that consensus is not for the proposed change doesn't make that true. It looks like it was about 65-30 before the shat hit the fan and everybody else showed up. Just an observation. --68.9.119.69 (talk) 03:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but they did show up, and that is the situation we have to deal with now.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

it just seems that after one of these types of RFCs becomes heated or contested or ANIed, folks show up and vote along "party" lines if you will :) I would toss out all the comments and votes after the 24th or so, but thats just me. Best of luck to all with this--68.9.119.69 (talk) 04:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That would also be an idea, though I don't agree with your assessment of the RFC results. But I already wrote something else below. North8000 (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

At this point, my gut feel is that the proposal should be put into it's original form (including title)(as it was during its run) , make notices about it elsewhere accurate and neutral, run much longer (another 2 weeks?), and then get closed by a consensus-selected uninvolved, neutral, thorough, experienced person or trio of persons. It would need to be someone willing to spend many hours reviewing this whole thing. One complexity is that being a compromise proposal, weary persons who have been debating this continuously for a year put only brief comments when they weighed in rather than repeating everything that they said, so a review of the history here is also important. Or possibly folks should be urged to succinctly expand their comments. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Warning regarding edit warring

Note that the page is currently protected to stop edit warring. A request was also filed to protect Template:CENT. I have declined that request as I don't believe we should allow this edit war to do such collateral damage. So, you all can keep edit warring there, and you all will be blocked. Note that having consensus on your side is not a free pass to edit war and anyone who continues will be blocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if an admin would consider removing the, um, pretty picture that was added to the page? (If nothing else, it really offends me when administrators edit through full protection for something other than a non-controversial and necessary fix.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

rfcid

Continuing to review the edits at the start of the RfC, was it necessary that a new rfcid be assigned?  What was wrong with the original one?  Thanks, Unscintillating (talk) 20:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

RfC bot tags

SV states at WP:AN, "...I also note no one had added the RfC tags for the bot (I have just added them), so this was not advertised the way RfCs normally are."  Can someone explain this issue or point me in the right direction?  Thanks, Unscintillating (talk) 20:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

RFC development time line

• November 25, 2010 current round of continuous active discussion on the first sentence began
• June 15th, 2011 The largest of many many RFC's and polls closes. It was for a specific change that totally eliminated "not truth". Basically a tie....no consensus to keep "not truth", no consensuses to remove "not truth"
• August 19th, 2011 First subpage Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/First sentence is created. Another poll subpage subsequently was created.
• August 31st, 2011 (approx, undated) Blueboar creates first draft of what will become the current RFC. This is one of many but (IMHO) because it is the first "reach across the aisle" proposal (in addition to it's merits) it gains support and becomes prominent and the primary proposal draft. Review of the proposal, including of proposed changes to it begins. Minor changes are made, but no major proposed changes gain support of even a few people.
• October 5, 2011 Proposal becomes the RFC, goes live.

North8000 (talk) 15:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The kind of change I would like to see

I intend this section to be for proposals for how to make a kind of change that incorporates the concerns about misuse of WP:TRUTH and the wish to keep the basic principle.

• I would support a proposal that makes it clear that verifiability is a necessary, but not sufficient criterion for inclusion of information in an article AND that the decision of including a piece of verifiable information has to be based on whether the view is significant, not whether it is objectively correct. I think this can be done by including a description of what is meant by the V not T slogan after the first sentence of the guideline. Such a phrase should both deter usages of the slogan to keep insignificant sourced views "because they are verifiable" and it should deter the usage of the slogan to remove verifiable information "because its not true". I.e. it should clearly establish the kind of reasoning that is acceptable when arguing for inclusion or exclusion of information based on "V not T". Basically I think that it is impossible to avoid that some users misuse the essay in one of the problematic ways, but it is possible to make it very easy for others to spot when it is being misused, by explicitly stating how not to use it (i.e. neither to support original research based on primary sources nor to justify inclusion of insignificant/erroneous but verifiable views).·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• I would support that too, and I believe it was suggested some months ago here as a compromise. It would (a) retain "verifiability, not truth" in the first sentence, which a significant number of people support, but (b) would make clear that verifiability is a necessary conditon for inclusion, not a sufficient one. And (c) by emphasizing that the decision to include material has to be based on significance, we make clear the relationship between V and NPOV, particularly UNDUE. There was a suggestion in August to achieve some or all of this by linking to an essay, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth, in the first sentence like this, then building that up to make those points, if it doesn't already. But I would be fine with making them explicitly in this policy too. SlimVirgin 19:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

These implicitly say to ignore the current compromise RFC. North8000 (talk) 19:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

And?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've now reviewed some of the history of this debate going back months. Suggestions like these were made and inevitably rejected in those discussions, as you both know since you were involved at different times. After months of fiddling with language the current RfC suggestion is what appears to have pleased more people than any other suggestion. I get you two don't like it. Great so express your thoughts in the oppose section, but don't try to bully everyone else back into line with the type of discussion you want. That's not how consensus building works. Not after months of clearly frustrating work done by a great number of other editors. Let this RfC run its course, indeed you should have let it do so already, but that's another matter, and if you don't like the final product start up a new conversation. But please don't hijack this one like this. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Could you explain how expressing one's opinion and providing a suggestion on an improvement to the proposal is "bullying"? We have been presented with a "final product" and been asked to say yes or no. We are saying no thanks - why should we not then propose a what we see as a better solution that might have a broader appeal? Something that could me more of a real compromise than what we are presented with here. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Maunus, why not let this RfC end before trying to forge ahead? In my view you are acting as if months worth of conversation between many editors from very different perspectives (plenty who didn't want to change anything as well) is worthless and doesn't deserve even to be seen to fruition. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:02, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• I don't see any need to change the policy. So far, I have not seen an example of an editor knowingly adding information to an article that was wrong simply on the basis of verifiability. And certainly not on a scale that warrants a change to this policy. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:24, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So, essentially...

Slimvirgin unilaterally changed the title of the RfC and also added information to the proposal in a spot that made it seem like Blueboar had wrote it. And then, at some other point, added information and actually put on Blueboar's signature to it, when she was the one that wrote it. Do I have everything right thus far? Silverseren 18:25, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, on the first two points. Not sure about the third one, though. Yes, on the first point, apparently not on the final two. It's hard to follow all of these discussions. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Slimvirgin has done admirably at obfuscating the RfC, not that I expected anything less. The wording at ANI and elsewhere so as to make people coming in to the RfC think it was about removing not truth from this policy altogether. And the adding of that paragraph to the RfC as well, so as to make it seem like Blueboar was doing the same. This is all very in line with what I expected. Silverseren 18:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Funny how reality always seem to align perfectly with one's preconceived notions... Thanks for sharing.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

No, that is wrong, and I'd really appreciate if these accusations would stop. WhatamIdoing added the extra words on Oct 13, as has been explained above, because Blueboar had not added a summary for the RfC bot. So WhatamIdoing did it instead.

I then copied BB's signature and original timestamp below that summary on Oct 28 (believing he had written it, and therefore not wanting to add my own signature and timestamp). I did this because the bot reproduces everything before the first signature, and I had asked the bot to add the RfC to more pages. It's quite normal to move signatures around for the RfC bot; so long as you don't change the timestamp (which would make it seem as though the person had re-signed), it's not an issue, and I had no reason to believe the summary was not written by BB.

What you are witnessing was an attempt to spread notification of the RfC via the bot (and elsewhere), and to format it properly for that purpose. If you would AGF just a little, you would see that. SlimVirgin 18:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Then what exactly is the issue with Blueboar removing information that he didn't add to the proposal? I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to remove it. Furthermore, the information that the RfC bot is spreading is wholly incorrect in terms of what the RfC is actually about. Silverseren 20:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

If you refer to what the RFC bot is currently finding on this page, I think that "incomprehensible" is a far better description than "incorrect". (Do take a look: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wikipedia policies and guidelines.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's my motion (or whatever you call it)

Consider Sarek's close to be the close with respect to what sits in the policy pending a potential further RFC. There is obviously no consensus to keep the current version, and there is clearly a majority and most would say a consensus (both before an after the recent burst of opposes) for the proposed version over the current version. Arguable, one brief question/comment a long time ago does not make on "involved", and there is no 30 day rule, especially since the extensive comments had dried up, and there was no objection or mention of this while the "time to close?" question floated for two days. The vastly preferred version would sit in there pending a possible new RFC by folks what want to reverse it or make further changes. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

If you are calling for agree/don't responses you might want to re-factor this motion a bit, as it is hard for people to give simple responses to something in a relatively narrative form.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes

North8000 (talk) 20:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

No

The presumption with articles, a fortiori policies, is that they remain as is unless there is agreement to delete or change them. We don't need a proposal, or RfC, to find out whether there is a consensus to keep anything. What we do need is a consensus to change it. If we reach a consensus to change any part of this policy, we change it. As long as there is no consensus to change it, we don't change it. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:19, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

For me, the entire process became null and avoid the moment the proposal was refactored. Start again, with a clean slate on the original wording proposal and announce it properly. Why not use the process that tells us all about Arbcom elections or the Wiki meet ups in Edinburgh and Liverpool? Leaky Caldron 20:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

mmmm, It's just appeared in my Watchlist options and notices. Leaky Caldron 21:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

So far there is no consensus for the proposed wording. There are also meaningful worries that this RFC, which has to do with the wording of a core content policy, was not seen by a wide enough swath of editors to begin with. There are also worries that the outcome is muddied anyway, both by good faith mistakes in how the RFC was put forth and in how editors went into backs and forths hoping to "fix" it. I don't think it can be fixed. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Gwen... this RfC was advertised at the Village Pump back on Oct. 6th... it was also advertised that same day at WT:NPOV and WT:NOR (the other two of the "big three" core polices). Notice was posted to the WP:Centralized discussion page, and it was listed at the RfC notification page. In the first day alone it received over 50 comments. So tell me... if this wasn't seen by a wide enough swath of editors, where else should I have posted a notice? Blueboar (talk) 22:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

On the Watchlist options and notices, which has just been done. Village Pump has a fairly narrow interest group, I think and not everyone has those pages on their watchlist. A proposed change to WP:5P should have been notified in the widest possible manner. If Wiki meetups can receive that treatment surely you can agree that changing WP:V can be published there. Leaky Caldron 22:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Could you explain (for my future reference) how I (as a non-admin) would go about placing a notice on Watchlist options etc. If it is not something that I can do myself... Where do I go to request that it be done? Blueboar (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

They can be added by an admin at http://en.wikipedia.org/MediaWiki:Watchlist-details, after being asked for on the talk page there. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:24, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• We gain nothing by having a core policy with a wording that only 4 out of seven editors agree with.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Pardon me if I missed something in the math calculations, but wouldn't that mean having a wording that only 3 out of seven editors agree with is even worse? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Bizarre logic that is.Griswaldo (talk) 01:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Except I am not arguing for status quo, I am arguing for a change that more people than 4 in seven can agree with.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

There are two flaws with Til Eulenspiegel's point. First, when someone wishes to change a policy, it is for them to seek consensus. Second, it may be possible to redress some of the concerns that cause people to be unhappy with the placement of "... not truth" in the first sentence, without requiring a major change (def+any change that requires an RfC).

North, Tryptofish and Blueboar will tell me that they tried to come up with such a change over several months before the RfC with no success. I think that the lack of consensus, even when Sarek closed it, shows that all people who want to remove "...not truth" from the lead have to accept that this is so important to the policy, that it will be in the lead. Now the question is, what, specifically, is wrong with it? In some cases, editors flat out demand that truth be our objective. This has never been the standard for WP. Some editors accept this, but believe that the current wording still makes it easy for editors to produce misleading articles. I believe that we can address this without major revisions. And some editors feel the idea is not propery or clearly explained, and this too I think we can address without major revisions. As long as people are willing to explore these latter two options, I believe we can reach consensus on changes.

I think the underlying problem has to do with an exponential grwoth of the community. In the early years, the proportion of veteran editors was large enough that and the number of new editors small enough that plenty of veterans were collaborating with newbies and took the time to explain why our policies are what they ar, and how they can work. At some point in time, we passed a tipping-point. Now there are plenty of articles edited by newcomers who almost never interact with veterans. It is now much harder if not impossible for newcomers to learn our ways through interaction with people who have been here since 01-04 or 05. Since that time the number of editors has really taken off, which means that one can spend years editing with other people who arrived just as recently. Many of these people have read or policies, some have not, and reading is often not enough to provide a satisfactory explanation. This is a change in the culture of the community. It creates a crisis in the transmission of core values. But I prefer to be optimistic: all these newcomers, and new articles, do raise questions about what we really mean by our policies, that the people who wrote them never considered.

Are there any alternatives that might prove satisfactory to more people from both "sides"? I haven't been following this long, but has anyone ever suggested clarifying the phrase to read "verifiability, not perceived truth"? (or "verifiability, not various perceptions of truth"?) That might go some way toward the argument that the word truth is being used in a specific nuance while being vague about that. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:46, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Or even more amplified, perhaps, "verifiability - not necessarily what any one editor perceives as the truth"...? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Yap, I agree with you - that the word Truth must be clarified precisely - actually this is clarified in two another documents: WP:Truth and WP:Original - but I think there should be something more concise and that should be in WP:Verify - Wikiglobaleditor (talk) 12:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I would just note that all truths are perceived or believed truths, even if everyone we know believes them. Til Eulenspiegel, I do not know whether you will consider this a real response to your question/suggestion, but it is meant to be. I have long felt the wording of V misses an important step. We say that we have to verify stuff from reliable sources. A big criticism of the policy (a criticism of the effect, not the wording - I think the best method is first to look at problematic effects and then ask if they can be blamed on the wording/how to improve the wording) is that it leads WP to publish anything that has been published elsewhere. This is a broad criticism but it has some truth to it - many articles use quotes out of context, or use reliable sources that for one reason or another happen not to be the best or even appropriate source. Personally, I think that before we link to RS in the policy, we need to make clear that what people are verifying are "significiant views" (an idea that comes from NOR). These can be views about what is true or false, but also about what is right r wrong, good or bad, beautiful or ugly i.e. any value. Then we should say that we verify that these are significant views through reliable sources. I think the benefit of adding this kind of sentence to the introduction of the policy is that it provides an anchor for including other criteria for "verification" besides "reliable sources" - guidance as to which RS is appropriate, that we need to provide enough information so that readers can verify not only that someone said or wrote it, but that what they said is significant, and enough information to assess how significant (e.g., virtually all scholars in the life and human sciences agree that human beings are descended from a single-cell organism, which makes this kind of claim about as significant as possible. But scholars are divided as to whether the gene or the species is the principal unit of evolution, and sscholars are divided as to what human behaviors can be explained by evolution - these views are significant, but only in the context of other, different views that are equally significant). this at least is how I would handle it. But I wish to make clear that I do think that V sometimes does not have the effect it is meant to have, and that this does require some change. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I have faith ("faith" = "commitment," not "blind acceptance," in my culture) in our core policies. But for me this faith does not mean we must never alter them, it means I am confident that they can apply to any major problem we as editors face. I do believe that as we face new problems, some things need to be explained better, in some cases differently. I still believe a wiki-pedia cannot make it its editors' job to determine the truth or falisity of claims. I think this needs to be stated in the first or second sentence of this policy, followed by an explanation of why not, and an explanation of what, then, we can and should do. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Somewhere above, someone whose signature seems to have been lost in the formatting (and I'm not interested in going through the edit history to see who it was) talks about "North, Tryptofish and Blueboar will tell me that they tried to come up with such a change over several months before the RfC with no success." I'm not sure how the three of us were conflated into a single group, and I've lost track in the tl;dr of what "such a change" even refers to, but each of the three of us took different positions in trying to find a compromise that might satisfy the community, and I was considerably less enthusiastic about any change to the status quo than the other two editors were. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

What constitutes consensus?

Going solely by the numbers, I see 88 in favor of this change, 59 against the change and 4 who are neutral (as of this writing). 58% is clearly a majority, but I'm not sure that constitutes concensus. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

For RFAs, support must come in somewhere between 70% and 80%, with a bit more weight given to sundry comments, maybe. For a core policy wording shift which has been as fraught with woe as this one, I'd say consensus, with weight given for comments, would need to be closer to 80%. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That's one opinion, and what is it based on? Also baring a policy/guideline addressing RfC consensus specifically this is clearly the applicable policy - WP:CON. Specific percentages looked for at RfA have nothing to do with a request for comment. Why not ask what the correct percentage is at AfD (as opposed to RfA)? At least that question arrives at the correct answer, per the policy I linked, that it isn't a vote count. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

All the more reason to keep this RfC open for 30 days or more, and allow SV to request the MediaWiki site notice to advertise it more widely. We want more opinions, not less. Viriditas (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, keeping it open longer could help, the mess might tidy itself (or not). Griswaldo, I think you'll find that the threshold for consensus here is high, wontedly somewhere near 75% support through meaningful, good faith comments. I've never seen something closed as consensus on en.WP with a simple majority, taken as a vote or otherwise. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Then you are not familiar with the AfD process which often dips below 75% without defaulting to non consensus. Also, your characterization of this as a serious change ("core policy wording shift") is misleading. It's a minor word change meant to clarify the existing policy and not to alter it. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Also there's a a daisy chain effect between 2 arguable points. Saying that such a super-duper majority is needed to make a wording change which is just a clarification. And then defining the super-duper -majority as such a high number. North8000 (talk) 21:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec)AfD is not the same thing as RfC for a policy change. Usually articles are deleted for reasons that are easy to anchor to policies. We descide the result of an AfD based on the number of votes weighted according to the validity of their arguments for deletion according to recognized criteria. I think it is pretty obvious that the threshold for changing policy ought to be higher than the threshold for deleting the article. Where Griswaldo and I may agree is that after an RfC on policy, it is essential to discuss the comments, and not view it as a straight up-down vote. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

North800 has inadvertently touched upon something that has brought us to this point. It is almost impossible to make a wording change to these policies without having years of discussion. There needs to be a fast track route so that the editors who wish to make simple changes to improve the clarity of the policy can do so without having to spend years of their lives embroiled in a dispute. We need something like a Wiki-wide referendum to make these changes. The current process obviously doesn't work. Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec)There is no major change to policy here, just a slight clarification in the wording aimed at the same meaning the policy is supposed to have now. That's not to say that opposing the change isn't legitimate, since it is, but characterizing it like this is inaccurate. Policies are clarified all the time without RfCs, and without huge super-majorities of large numerical scale. That's usually how it happens in fact. The only difference here is that this word change has been contentious. So it is inaccurate to insinuate that policy page changes usually require or should require this kind of input first. The present circumstances are brought on by the fact of contention not the fact of being a policy page.Griswaldo (talk) 21:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Sure - changes to substance requires consensus, but not all changes are substantive. I definitely do not think that any change this policy requires consensus! But people may disagree as to the seriousness of this particular proposed change. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Things tend to bog down when there is no consensus. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:24, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Not saying I'm for or against that, but that will be an equally lengthy process in and of itself.∞陣内Jinnai 21:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Less than 70% support for a Policy change does not meet any standard of Consensus, unless there is some overriding Policy issue involved (such as in XfD's, where the Policies are more important than the number of iVotes). Consensus requires a "higher standard of participation and consensus for changes to Policies and guidelines than to other types of articles." Less than 70%, 75% or even 80% is certainly not a 'higher standard'. For example, Bureaucrat elections have an 85% support threshold - how can major Policy changes have any less?

And yes, this is a major change; saying right up front that the threshold for inclusion is "verifiability, not truth" is a significant and important criteria for this policy. Truth is a powerful thing, but it is extremely subjective. Too many times have I seen edit wars and angry editors trying to oppose or promote 'truth' over verification. "Verifiability, not truth" is a powerful statement, and one that sticks with you, and it needs to be prominently stated, not hidden somewhere down in the policy. Happy Melon above says it well "the simple phrase "verifiability, not truth" is one of the handful of iconic phrases that define Misplaced Pages", and Olive's "The phrase "verifiable not truth" has enormous impact first because of its placement, it opens the policy, and second because it is highly succinct and memorable." and CWinger's compelling testimony "I think the current wording is more powerful, with the emphasis that Misplaced Pages is not seeking "the truth". I remember that made a major impression on me as a new Wikipedian." So yes, a signficant change indeed. One that requires a high level of consensus. Dreadstar ☥ 21:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• I agree that the anti-change party's best hope is for a "no consensus for change". It's only to be expected that people with that opinion will say an 70% majority is necessary, and that no account should be taken of the gamesmanship involved in engineering this outcome. My position is obviously otherwise. If we wanted a supermajority for every contested change to a policy, and we also said that an involved editor could summarily revert a close and reopen the discussion and readvertise it using different language without sanction, then we might as well decide that our policy pages are graven in stone and lock them all down as they are. In my opinion, Sarek was not "involved" by reason of that one comment. It follows that the revert of his close was spurious, and that Sarek's close should therefore be restored as the new consensus version. The subsequent discussion should be taken as a separate RFC about whether to restore the previous version. Thus we have an outcome consistent with normal custom and practice and we have the satisfaction of seeing the gamesmanship fail to achieve its end.—S Marshall T/C 22:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Also, that leaves the version favored by the vast majority in place pending any further proposal or RFC's, including any to reverse. North8000 (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it is Policy and Consensus that laid out the percentages and timelines I mention above, not disgruntled, game-playing "anti-change party" members - whoever they may be. I for one am getting tired of the constant accusations and attacks. Take it up the chain if you feel that strongly about it, but quit complaining about it here. Dreadstar ☥ 22:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Any chance of actual consensus on the issue has been thoroughly destroyed after the badly worded notifications that were made. We should just go with the proper close that was already done. The only reason there was opposition to it was because the people who disagreed with the changes didn't get the close they wanted. Silverseren 22:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see consensus for Sarek's close, and that's significant on its lonesome. Additionally, I don't think it was a valid close to begin with, which makes it even less likely it will be restored. And what, we disenfranchise all the editors who have voted since that time? Bad idea, bad precedent. The RFC should have run for the full 30 days, you can't get past that. Dreadstar ☥ 22:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Except all of the voters since then have, based on how they worded their votes, likely been influenced by the incorrect wording put on various noticeboards. Silverseren 22:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, that would be true if SV's wording had been incorrect, however it was more accurate than the current/original RFC title. Even if SV's wording was biased or incorrect, it is obvious from reading the oppose votes since then that they do indeed get it, iow, they understand what this RFC is all about. So I don't think concerns over SV's wording are valid. Dreadstar ☥ 22:52, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the RfC title, i'm talking about the wording of notifications that made it seem like this was a proposal to remove the "Verifiability, not truth" phrase from this policy completely, when it is not. It is moving it to a lower part of the policy, where it can be fully explained and not be misinterpreted as it is so often by new users and by the media. Silverseren 22:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Many of the oppose comments since then clearly talk about the positioning of the phrase, several that I pointed out here; so I don't see that as a major issue. And indeed, the first step to getting rid of a comment is to bury it; although I try to AGF about that.  :) Dreadstar ☥ 23:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

As I explained here, I think we should accept the proposed version. Putting asside my ow opnion of what I prefer (I would prefer much more radical change than what is proposed now), the reason why 58% is good enough for accepting the change in the text in this case is because of a combination of a few factors. The current version has less than 50% support, and the people who are unhappy with the present version are not going to "agree to disagree" and drop the matter, i.e. the discussions will go on. But the people who want to stick with the present version don't like endless discussions with no end in sight. The problem for them is that because they are in the minority, they can't stop those discussions, in fact they are always under pressure to participate in RFCs on this matter. Which is why they would rather want this all to end once and for all.

Then, if you have something that has close to 60% support, it is easier to discuss further changes from there in a calmer way. The version is more stable, you then don't get this effect where people who would rather do something else, feel pressured to yet again give their opinion here. Count Iblis (talk) 22:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

• Dreadstar: No. I'm afraid you aren't going to get me to shut up about gamesmanship on this page. I'm still much, much too angry about it, and as you can see from this page, I'm far from the only one—editors on all sides of the debate are concerned. Yes, I do think the matter will need to go to dispute resolution as a separate matter. I observe that SlimVirgin has already been desysopped by Arbcom for summarily reverting her fellow admins once, and I think we're looking at an established pattern of behaviour from her. But the fact that dispute resolution will happen once this RFC has closed, does not mean that the gamesmanship shouldn't be mentioned here. It absolutely should. The fact that there's been gamesmanship should be reflected in the outcome. I understand why you, as a change-opposer, don't want me to keep saying this, but I'm afraid that's tough luck.—S Marshall T/C 22:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Of course you're free to do as you please, I'm merely pointing out the proper process for this type of thing. And there was no use of Admin tools in this affair, so the ArbCom case you mention doesn't apply. To me, your continued, angry, threatening, accusing comments merely weaken your position, so it's no skin off my teeth. I've been down that path a few times meself... :) Dreadstar ☥ 22:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
    • I'm certainly very angry about it indeed, and I'm certainly spitting the same accusation again and again like a machinegun, but I don't think I'm threatening. Just accusing and angry, and mentioning dispute resolution when you specifically prompted me about it. Please don't get the wrong idea about me: I'm actually a very reasonable man and even though I've been here and working in contentious areas of the encyclopaedia for much too long, I've never been to DR and I have a pristine block log. You just happen to have met me on one of the very few occasions when I've really lost my temper.—S Marshall T/C 23:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
      • I totally understand and sympathize; may we meet in less volatile situations in the future! Dreadstar ☥ 23:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

3:2 is called a landslide in the real world, that means 50% more on one side compared to the other. That's 60% of the total. Anything higher than that is preposterous. Someone said 75%, that would be 3:1 in favor of the change!; a tactic for preventing any change.North8000 (talk) 01:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

And yet we manage to have admins appointed never with a consensus below 70%. The ideal consensus is closer to 100% than 51%. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Appointing someone to a power has nothing to do with re-arranging wording. And in real politics, a majority is all that is necessary for running anyways. But, of course, that's when it's a competition, but adminship isn't, it's a bit different from that and applies to neither a competition or this RfC. Silverseren 01:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Landslides in US presidential elections are a quirk of the electoral college system, they happen because a small percentage majority in votes, state by state, can cause a "landslide" of states going to the candidate, who winds up taking, 47 or 48 states in the electoral college with only a 3 or 4 percent majority. US presidents aren't elected by consensus. Not the same thing at all. Gwen Gale (talk) 02:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That percentage (>75%) is like something you would require for a constitutional amendment, where you are fundamentally changing the nature of something. But that's not what we're doing here. What we're doing is a rearrangement, a reordering. That's something that should only require a simple majority or, if really necessary, somewhere around a 60% support ratio. Silverseren 01:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

No, that is exactly what we are doing. We are making a fundamental change to a core policy - the closest thing wikipedia has to a constitution. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

But we aren't changing anything, we're just moving it to a different location on the page. Yes, we're removing the idiom from the lede, but we're using it elsewhere accompanied by a more explanatory paragraph that is to reduce confusion that stems from the idiom itself. Nothing is actually being changed, WP:V still means the exact same thing it did before, the policy page just explains it better with the change. Silverseren 02:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I've argued at some length above (now archived) why I don't think that argument holds. The motivation for the change is to allow for a specific kind of editing that takes "truth" as its starting point, and which I think will inevitably result in Or problems becoming more rampant than they already are. If the change has no consequence as you say then why would the supporters even bother to instate it? There is some kind of logical disconnect in the argument you are making. This is not just moving information - it is moving information for a reason. The reason is the problem, and what makes it a major change.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly a change. If it were a simple reordering of words, there wouldn't be a problem. This goes beyond that, moving (and indeed changing} one of the core, prominent, iconic and memorable statements of policy. That's major. Dreadstar ☥ 02:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Do you think the new section is incorrect in how it explains the phrase? Moving a phrase from the lead to another section of the entry isn't exactly like changing the constitution.Griswaldo (talk) 02:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I covered that issue in some detail here. Dreadstar ☥ 02:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

For good or ill, Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:CONSENSUS rules all - we don't do things by simple majority or a straight up or down vote. Consensus is generally determined by strength of argument and adherence to Policy, if there are good arguments on both sides, then the number of supporters may come into play. Generally, as a rule of thumb, those numbers are, for example, 70% support for passing an WP:RFA and 85% for WP:RFB, there no mathematical consensus percentage at 60% that I know of. Dreadstar ☥ 02:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

This is WP:RFC and your percentages are meaningless. Read WP:CON which is the actual policy that governs consensus and tell me where your magical percentages are. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I never said WP:CON contained 'magical percentages"...lol....the percentages I'm pointing out are standards accepted by a majority of editors, depending on circumstances, and are not meaningless, obviously. As a matter of fact, it makes those percentages actual consensus in the areas I referred to above. I'm saying I haven't seen such a low percentage as say, 60%, define anything consensus-wise on WP. But then, I haven't seen everything.... :) What WP:CON does say is this, "Misplaced Pages has a higher standard of participation and consensus for changes to Policies and guidelines than to other types of articles." A statement that I thinks makes clear that we do indeed need a higher level of consensus to make changes in policy, a higher level than...what? I say as high or higher than RFA or possibly even RFB. Certainly not 60% or less. Dreadstar ☥ 02:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo, from WP:Consensus: Consensus, on Misplaced Pages, is not necessarily unanimity. Ideally, it arrives with an absence of objections, but often we must settle for as wide an agreement as can be reached. In other words, consensus will tend to be closer to unanimity than 50/50 (zero consensus either way), which is why "at least 75%" gets brought up so often. Gwen Gale (talk) 02:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. How much consensus does it need to introduce a change in an run of the mill article in a dispute? 2 against one is usually enough yes, but 3 against 2? (rarely), 3 against 4 (never), etc. This is the relevant measure. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Maunus's reasoning here, and definitely think that consensus should be closer to 100% than it should be to 50%, and 60/40 is not close enough. I did vote oppose, but this is something I've always felt very strongly about. I think if an argument is truly well reasoned, then it should not be unreasonable to expect that it convince more than 70% of a given sample of people. Nformation 02:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

What matters is what we want to achieve. The ball is in the opposer's court. They can't have it both ways. Either let Blueboar's proposal be implemented with the 60% or so votes and then one can move on with discussions about furher changes which are then less urgent. Or oppose the changes, but then you'll have to deal with far more freqeunt discussions about this "not truth" issue all over again with RFC posted quite frequently about new proposals.

Note that asking random Wikipedians whether or not "Not Truth" should be removed will yield a 50-50 split. That was observed in discussions here quite a while ago. This issue is contentious, because there is a drive by editors to actually edit this policy page to actually get it changed. In case of some other policy page, you may also have such 50-50 split when putting forward some proposal, but there will then not be such a drive among editors to actually change things. I.e. the 50% who would find the proposal better won't find the present wording so bad that they would be motivated to get it changed.

In this case, because there is a determined effort by the people opposed to "Not Truth" in the first sentence, the fact that there is 50% support for the status quo is not a healthy situation. Then the best thing to do is to try to get a compromize proposal, and that is what Blueboar did. Now, it's then not simply the wording of the compromize that convinces people to support it, it is also the fact that people can see that this moves the process forward. So, if you think that the new proposal is just as good as the old one, you may have intitially voted against (because why fix something if it ain't broke), but now you would support this in order to move the process forward.

The people who voted before SlimVirgin placed the additional notifications were more aware of the long discussions on this page, and they would then tend not to be a priori negative about Blueboar's proposal (if it is ok. then you would not oppose just because the old version is also ok.). We have 31 people against and 66 people in favor till that moment. The people who voted since that time split approximately 50-50, precisely what you would expect when you confront people with this question for the first time. We have 42 opposers and 35 people in favor since the notifications by SlimVirgin.

Suppose then that the RFC is to be closed as no consenus. Then that won't stop the discussions and the edits to this policy page. It is likely that the people who want to change things will do so with more vigor, because they have seen that they can get to 70-30 instead of being stuck at 50-50. So, the pressure the opposers will face is a lot greater than what it was before Blueboar started his effort. Count Iblis (talk) 04:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I think you've got it wrong. "opposers" aren't just opposing change - we're opposing this particular change. Of course we can go on to make other proposals for how to change policy in a way that solves the problem of some editors abusing this policy, and eventually one of them will achieve real consensus.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, so you have this choice of continuing the discussions about that issue. What won't work is closing these discussions while keeping the wording as it is now. Before Blueboar started his work, some people here were getting sick and tired of having to continue the discussions and they were invoking WP:DEADHORSE, but that doesn't really work if there is just 50% support for the status quo. Count Iblis (talk) 04:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

An interesting analysis but you are making some assumptions. For example, don't assume that editors who have not commented recently have not been watching this page for a long time, but were reluctant to jump into the fray until now. The fundamental issues are no necessarily unclear to those who have commented with out benefit of the long drawn out discussion. In fact I'm not convinced such discussions can cloud the issues. Just a few thoughts to add into the mix.(olive (talk) 04:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC))

Sorry, but the spectre of "far more freqeunt discussions about this...with RFC posted quite frequently about new proposals...with more vigor" just doesn't override WP:CON. It may even be close to threatening WP:DISRUPT; not that I take it that way, but really....  :) And, perhaps someone will come up with a proposal that gains consensus. Perhaps even this one will, it ain't over till it's over. I was certainly aware of the long discussions both here and on the subpage, but after a while, it was just tiring to watch. Which is probably why I missed the RFC. 04:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

With all the other safeguard policies and "checks" regarding what is even to be considered "verifiable" (WP:RSN, for instance), I still find it difficult to believe that this simple phrase of "not truth" (that is there to "startle" and then be explored by the uninitiated by further analyzing policies and guidelines - which is crucial) causes so many problems. Why have so many understood it for the last six years? Why do we even have to get into what is really "truth" vs "untruth"? If anyone can convince me otherwise: I will happily change my vote. Doc talk 05:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Like the literature from which it is drawn, en.WP is awash in reliably sourced "untruths." Knowingly posting a cited "untruth" to en.WP is blockably bad faith. Mistakenly posting a cited "untruth" to en.WP can be handled through policies such as WP:RS, WP:BLP and consensus sooner or later. Meanwhile, the first meaningful threshold of inclusion is that a reader can verify (truly check) a cited source which has been put forth in good faith as reliable, rather than rely on the outcome of some editor's own original research as to what's truth and what's not. There is likely only one truth but the pith is, our knowledge and understanding of it is tightly bounded and shifting. Hence verifiability, not truth has been and is a core policy of this website. Gwen Gale (talk) 06:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

3:2 is a landslide (which is 60%). Anything higher than that would never be achieved for any issue where there is a division of opinion, and could be used to block any contested change. "Not truth" got put in there by one person with little or no discussion, got into its current context in a similar manner. Now there is a landslide opinion for a compromise which moves it and explains it. This blockage attempt requires that 3 items (2 off them being very shaky at best) all be true:

1. That shifting and explaining the term is a major change in policy
2. That such requires a consensus (this one is fine)
3. That a a "consensus" is some impossible-for-any-contested-issue 2.33:1 (which is what 70% is) super-duper majority, and by a process where posting it here, at the pump, in centralized discussion and some other policy pages is not considered "enough notice".

By that standard the insertion and elevation "not truth" did not have even 1/100th of the process/support required and so it should immediately get completely removed/reverted. (or as a minimum, go with the compromise which passed by a landslide) North8000 (talk) 11:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Consensus can (and does) change. If you think that the phrase should get completely removed/reverted because of the "1/100" factor many years ago: go for it. No compromise passed by any landslide, and the votes are still being cast. Doc talk 11:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I am very troubled by some "side remarks" some people keep repeating. An RfC is not a "vote," it is a request for outside comments; it is not a substitute for collaborative editing ivnvolving anyone who wishes to participate, it is a part of the process, and that process involves following RfCs with discussions of the comments and renewed attempts to seek a consensus, if not for the proposed change, then for whatever change can achieve a consensus.

It is unfair and unproductive to lump all people opposed to the RfC as an "anti-change part" because they do not form a party, and are not uniformly or unanimously opposed to change. It is unfair and unconstructive to continue to insist that they are "gaming the system" when what one really means is "they have frustrated my desire." I know that some people sincerely believe that the proposed change is minor and we don't need consensus, or that the proposed change is major but that as of a few days ago there was a consensus. S. Marshall admits she is angry and can no longer assume good faith (or, at least, felt this way yesterday) and I know others feel the same way. I truly believe that S. Marshall and others believe that their views are the product of recent experiences, and in fact accept that this is so up to a point. But past a certain point these beliefs become the cause of the conflict.

That is what "assume good faith" is all about. It does not mean that in your heart of hearts, or based on a careful analysis of all of the data, you have proof that everyone is acting in good faith. It is not a "truth claim," an assertion that it is true that everyone is acting in good faith. It is a pragmatic position. When editing with strangers who have radically different views of what is true and false, right and wrong, the only way to collaborate is to act as if you believed everyone else is acting in good faith. North has made it very clear that she thinks I am just bullshitting and maybe others here do too. Maybe one reason is that they detect that I am not really sure that others are acting in good faith, even when I say that I do. If this is the case, let me be clear: I do not know whether North, Marshall, Silverseren are acting in good faith. But I do know — I must "truly believe" — that if I am to achieve anything at Misplaced Pages, I must strive to act as if I believe that marshall, north, Silver are acting in good faith. I must make my heart believe this, at least for the duration of my on-line activity. If we cannot do this, the project cannot work. Doing it is a pragmatic position.

If an editor, regardless of what he or she actually believes, is not capable of acting as if i.e. "assuming" all other principal editors are acting in good faith, then there is no point in participating in this discussion. I am writing these words because I am bracketing my emotions and my gut feelings, and am manning up and assuming good faith for the sake of the project. If this is not good enough for the pious, well, sorry, but it is both the best I can do and all that i am required to do. It is also what you are required to do as well. I know that between some editors there is years of animosity and cynicism. I also believe that trolls exist and one way or another need to be driven away from Misplaced Pages. But the fact is, Slim Virgin, SilverSeren, Tryptofish, S. Marshall and I have been editing here for years and have not been banned so we are not trolls, no matter how we feel. That requires us to assume good faith on one another's part.

And the consequence of assuming good faith is this: even if you think that there is no conceivable rational or sensible way that an adult human being who suffers from no cognitive impariment can possibly think that this is a major change, or that we do not have consensus, we have to accept the fact that other editors acting in good faith think you are wrong. I acknowledge that rationale adults sincerely believe this is a minor proposal and that there was a consensus. I really am capable of assuming good tfaith and accepting that some editors here see the world differently from me (if you do not believe me, maybe it is because you are incapable of assuming such good faith yourself). We just have radically different understandings of what is going on here. And if it were just me, I would walk away. But there are many experienced editors who share my views.

'And this is the proof that we do not have consensus! This is what consensus is all about! From my reading of the above, Silver Seren and S. Marshall are so convinced that they are right, that they simply discount anyone who does not look at things the way they do as alien subversives, people with some hidden agenda to disrupt, which means that they do not count and once you subtract them you are left with your precious consensus. But we do not reach a consensus by villifying people we do not agree with or do not even understand. That is not an authentic consensus. The fact that you feel so frustrated and cheated of the victory you believe you had achieved simply shows that there actually is no consensus.

This is my "faith:" Misplaced Pages does not view a lack of consensus as a problem (let alone an evil). In seeking to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, it assumes that editors will be divided on all sorts of issues, divided most passionately, divided to the core of what they believe is true or good. That this occurs at any article or on this talk page is not a failure, it is the expected state of affairs. Since it is not a failure or an evil, no one is to blame. The first motive behind our policies is to create a framework for people who are so passionately divided that they cannot even comprehend how someone else can believe ... ( ... in a theistic god or no god, in Darwinian evolution or creationism, that GW Bush was one of the greatest US presidents of the 20th century, or Reagan, or Clinton, or Obama, that it is spelled colour, or color, that the death penalty is righteous or a sin, that "not truth" belongs in the first sentence or in the third paragraph or nowhere, that this is or is not a major change, that we do or do not have a consensus ...) And this is why we make the very bold statement that "Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle on Misplaced Pages."

You blame me and others for this lack of consensus. But as long as you cannot assume good faith and lump with with a "party" of people who are "anti-change" or intent on "gaming" the system, you will never achieve a consensus. There is only ONE path to consensus, and it is called "assume good faith." I cannot tell you what to think when you go off-line, just as you cannot tell me what to believe when I go off-line. But as long as we are here, together, this has to be our fundamental principle. Language matters, and if I said anything that offends someone please tell me and if I understand and good faith is involved, I will apologize. Can everyone else here say the same? What matters is not what you think in your mind, what matters is how you are willing to treat others, here, now. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

There has been a lot of talk about AGF, but I'm not sure that that is the main issue. The main issue in most folks minds is that that a group of folks are doing clearly visible things (eg what Slim did, plus others inventing new rules) which are "not right" to prevent the change from happening. And nobody has questioned their motivations, and I think that it is widely assume that they feel that their end objective is what's best for Misplaced Pages. So, it is questioning their methods, not their motivations or sincerity. I mean, can you imagine in real life, an election or game where your score/vote was 50% higher than mine and I said "that means you lost"; if your score is less than double or triple mine, you lose? I don't see where that is a matter of good or bad faith.

Probably the one area where the "assuming" IS needed is the large sudden huge new burst of disproportionately "oppose" votes where this hasn't been advertised in any new venues except wp:npov. And there folks have vaguely questioned it but nothing in relation to any individuals. And even that has been secondary. North8000 (talk) 15:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your clarification. If you do not mind I would just like to voice two concerns. First, given what you just wrote, I would think that you would not want anyone to think that you are challenging the recent comments because you think that they cause you to lose the vote. I understand, you are questioning the methods. But you also seem to be questioning the outcome. Would it be completely unreasonable for some people to wonder whether you would have this same reaction if all of the new comments in the past two days were in support of the proposal? I am not trying to offend you. I am only asking that you consider how your statements might appear to someone who does not share your views. So that was more of a question than a comment, and you do not need to answer it (because I am not questioning your intentions, I am only asking you to think about the effects of what you are saying in terms of how the people who took the time in the past couple of days to comments, for example, might interpret them), I ask because you say you question the methods, not the intentions, yet you keep invoking their intentions, which is to prevent change or to win. In your above comment you still make reference to intentions. My second comment is a pure comment, take it or leave it: I do not see this as a vote. i do not see this as being about winning or losing. I do not think it is constructive to view it as a vote which one might win or lose, when we are supposed to edit through collaboration and consensus. And finally, I do not know what policy or guideline supports this interpretation that it is a vote which one wins or loses. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure I understand but I will try to answer. In my mind, I have moved the "burst of votes" off to the side as a sidebar issue for the very reason of AGF. Does that address your main question which seems to be about that? I do see this as people trying to invent rules so that no change that they don't like can pass. I mean, for heavens's sake, "not truth" went in with little or no discussion, but they claim a huge majority in favor of just moving it is not enough to merely move it? That will make plenty of people livid, or in my case, see it as an abuse/manipulation of the process, something worth shedding my blood over far more than any outcome. As I indicated, even in these very page, I have been at peace with many outcomes that were the exact opposite of what I wanted because it came from a proper process. On the last question, I don't know, you'll have to ask the folks that are saying that votes count, and if it doesn't get a super-duper-majority of 2.33:1 (70%) or 3:1 (75%) it fails. North8000 (talk) 16:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Just FYI, I'm one of the new oppose votes. I came here because of the watchlist notice. I also agree that 60% would be too low a threshold for consensus for a controversial change like this to a core policy; I'd like to see at least 70%. I say "controversial" based on the discussion, not based on an assessment of the impact of the change. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Slr., this apeears to be needed: THIS IS NOT A VOTE. (emphasis added). It's a means of reaching consensus through discussion of favorable or unfavorable views of a proposal. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, in this case, the RfC was intentionally set up to be (at least in part) a poll. The purpose of the RfC was to gauge whether a specific compromise that had been reached among a sizable but local working group of editors, (who had already spent several months in discussion) is acceptable to the broader community. It was never intended to be the end of the discussion. Blueboar (talk) 16:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm agnostic on the proposal, but given this is a core policy, we have to have a high level of consensus to make changes. Even if we take the matter as a vote, 58% is nowhere near enough. The quality of a Misplaced Pages policy is not just in what it says, but also in how much it is supported.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. As Uninvited Company notes above, the toxic trio was added virtually without discussion, and it has remained in the policy more because of persistence than any genuine consensus that supports it. In the past, I have described the process involved in entrenching it as "stealth editing". Far from being a core part of our policy, it has always been controversial and widely disliked. The idea that it can't be removed by anything short of a supermajority at an RFC that must be of 30 days' duration and must be advertised in particular places and in particular ways is nothing short of special pleading.—S Marshall T/C 17:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

To call it "the toxic trio" when you are referring to policy that a great many people support is flaming. How else can one read it except as a deliberate attempt to inflame? You are free to question it, challenge it, say you do not understand it or do not like it or whatever, but as soon as you say you are talking about "the toxic trio" there is no point in anyone who has a different view talking to you. Is that what you want? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:19, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

History has proven that having a view that "not truth" anywhere in the policy a disparagable, very bad idea does not preclude compromise. The current proposal IS a compromise which S Marshall reluctantly agreed to support despite it being far from what he (and other who also compromised) strongly preferred which was total removal of "not truth" from the policy. Folks just do not seem to understand this. North8000 (talk) 17:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)