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This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-11-15. The result of the discussion was Snowball Keep.

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This article must be deleted.

Today, the accepted opinion by the theoretical physics community suggests the model is unable to explain the known elementary particles. This assertion has been shown using mathematical arguments so the model isn't right as was formulated. The paper hasn't got new citations from a long time. A hint that this line of reasoning is a blind alley. Because of this the article must be deleted.--88.25.38.111 (talk) 23:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

88.25.38.111, what do you make of the paper's most recent citation, by someone named James Bjorken?-Scientryst (talk) 00:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

88...even if what you say were true (I don't know if it is), that would not mean that we delete the article. Should we delete the articles on Geocentric model, Phlogiston theory, or, really, anything in Category:Obsolete scientific theories. Now, if there are reliable sources that specifically reject this model (something which I believe has been the subject of debate for much of the above sections), then we would need to accurately state that, but we would never delete the article simply because the theory is now obsolete. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

88, even if the theory is currently not working, the theory itself is not worse than a lot of other toy models. At the contrary, it raises few interesting points that in general would need to be studied more. We know that except for string theory we don't really have a valid alternative theory of everything so far, and because string theory is far from being perfect, it's good to have people trying different roads, even if they don't work. For example parts of the theory might turn out to be true and interesting even if the E8 picture was wrong. I agree that this page is not excessively clear about what's not working in the theory and there is too much of "Lisi says he wants to do this to fix this problem..." making these hunches look like solutions instead of stating clearly what the results of the theory actually are so far and what's missing. But this has nothing to do with deleting the page. The page is encyclopedically important given that many things have been said about it from many different sources and it has reached wide popularity. See for example the TED talk. Now, it's true that the model is unable to explain the known elementary particles, but so is Loop Quantum Gravity at the moment (even if in that case the problems are of a completely different kind). 67.172.180.199 (talk) 03:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Last revert

After a long discussion we agreed that that version was mostly fine. I still believe it is too much 'pro-Lisi', Scientryst maybe believes something else. But it is not fair to edit without discussing here. Especially after a long discussion. I will report any other similar attempt to modify the page to WP:COI, unless discussed here and agreed by some editors.

About the specific changes, we discussed already that the theory is not called "E8 theory" but very often referred to as "E8 theory". The other changes were inverting the phrasing between the lede and the more in depth-paragraph. I believe the lede is fine like it is. If it needs to be shortened that's ok with me, but then it needs to be drastically shortened, not just with information that maybe one editor doesn't like to be there.

I still think that the whole page is way too long and must be at some point shortened.

70.136.253.158 (talk) 19:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

The Greater Goal of The Smolin-Lisi Enterprise?

Reading through the above discussion, I am quite amazed that scientryst (lisi?) is actively trying to define peer-reviewed and published scientific articles as untrustworthy and unreliable, while trying to define popular articles and blogs and well-funded hype as trusted and reliable. Is this really happening? Really? Please discuss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.103.149 (talk) 19:38, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Since the article exists because of all the media hype, as opposed to scientific activities and accomplishments, should not a section be introduced remarking on this? Saw this at Sciam: "Even though Garrett Lisi is always claiming that he does not like the media attention, he does everything possible to gain the media limelight. For instance, he never asks Lee Smolin to stop hyping him as the next Einstein, nor does he back down from hyping himself into his own TV show. If one views his[REDACTED] page, one can see how Garrett Lisi collected all the popular media articles generated by the hype funded and flamed by Lee Smolin. Were it not for the popular media articles, there would be no Misplaced Pages page, representing the fact that Garrett Lisi is naught but a media creation, with no scientific backing nor reality. Garrett is very conscious of this, so in all the media interviews he seeks out, he tries to cast all the self-generated and Smolin-generated/funded media hype as something he does not covet, willfully imbibe in, fondly cherish, and passionately perpetuate; whereas the exact opposite is true." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.103.149 (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The article exists because it meets Misplaced Pages's criteria for notability. Lisi is most likely not editing his own Wiki page, although it is always possible. When you say you saw this at "Sciam", do you mean in a peer-reviewed journal article, or just in someone's comments on a forum? If the latter (as I suspect, given the tone and subject matter), the quotation is not a reliable source for information and thus should not be included in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian you insist, "Lisi is most likely not editing his own Wiki page, although it is always possible." Do you know Lisi? Do you have insight into what he does and does not do? What % or probability would you assign that Lisi is and has been editing his own article, which at this point, nobody else in the world really cares about, now that his non-peer-reviewed hype has been debunked by professional physicists in peer-reviewed journals? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.103.149 (talk) 15:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

"When you say you saw this at "Sciam", do you mean in a peer-reviewed journal article"

Sciam is not a peer-reviewed journal. Nothing that appears there has undergone peer-review. Sciam is a popular-science magazine. And its online presence includes various blogs and forums, which have not undergone even the cursory editorial scrutiny that the articles in the printed magazine have.

Much of the discussion, that we have been having here, has been about the heavy reliance of this article on non-peer-reviewed sources. So it seems particularly important to clear up this misconception about one of those sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by QuotScheme (talk • contribs) 14:35, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

@IP: My experience is only that scientists/academics don't actually put all that much effort into pages about themselves. However, it is certainly possible that Lisi is editing, or that he has assigned a grad student to edit it for him, or that someone who actually does concur with him is editing it to be "helpful". That being said, who cares? Yes, it's bad, but we have no way of finding out, so what we should do is focus on making the article follow Misplaced Pages policies. If you have a specific suggestion in that regard, please make it, rather than just generally alleging a conspiracy. Yes, Misplaced Pages has to be clear about the difference between popularly reported science and what science actually says, but we have to be careful that everything we say is backed up by reliable sources. We can only say that this theory was disproved if we can actually site a source that says that.

@QuotScheme: thanks for the clarification--my mistake. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I have a theory that Qwyrxian is Lee Smolin supporting his pet crackpottery. We can only say that this theory is disproved if we can actually site a source that says that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.103.149 (talk) 14:57, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Fascinating theory. I don't even know who Lee Smolin is. I don't know anything about this theory, and only watch the article from a distance, trying to provide info about WP's policies. Which, in fact, is what I do know well--you cannot add information to Misplaced Pages that is not verified by reliable sources. Sorry, but them's the rules. Similarly, you can't remove cited information just because you don't like it. Now, one thing that I think you and I probably agree on is that this article needs to be a lot shorter than it is now. Since this is just one theory, and one that I believe you when you say is mostly discredited, we shouldn't be showing all of the math, providing ever minor aspect of the theory, etc. To be honest, I'd be happy if this article were cut down by 75%--just a basic description of the broad theory, along with whatever evidence we have that supports if the theory is verified or disproven. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes Qwyrxian, we need to remove all the faulty math and add a section on how the "theory" has been debunked and is not accepted in the scientific community, reflecting the reality that it is merely a media creation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.103.149 (talk) 15:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian--have you started shortening the article like you promised you would? It is important to match word and deed, otherwise civilization falls apart. Please let us know what you have accomplished! Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.103.149 (talk) 15:33, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

First of all, I promised no such thing; I just said I agree that the article should be cut. Like everyone else, I'm a volunteer here, and use my WP time to attend to hundreds of different articles, watching thousands more. To be honest, I'm not even sure if I'm capable of cutting the article down, because I simply don't have enough physics knowledge to tackle it (while I was a physics major in college for a year, I switched majors just before finishing intro-level QM). While it's possible for non-experts to edit aritcles, it's tough in cases like this. However, in maybe a week or two I might take a stab at the most egregious stuff. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

71, please don't bring this attitude to this page because it's already complicated to work on it like that. Qwyrxian is a very active[REDACTED] user and he's even an admin at the moment. Accusing him to be Smolin is silly other than extremely illogical and unrealistic. About Lisi, I disagree with Qwyrxian and I believe that is likely that he's editing this page. If not him certainly somebody really close to his research. It cannot be one of "his" grad students because Lisi doesn't have an academic position thus he cannot have grad students (although it's possible that he's funding some students or postdocs through grants). My opinion is that he does edit this page, and he does it because he understands the importance on a[REDACTED] article and of a SciAm article, given that these are popular websites/magazines. While in the academic world, as very often stated, the theory itself is largely but not entirely ignored.

Anyhow, these are just opinions. The facts are that the page should never be deleted, because it presents a theory that has a scientific setup, several preprints and few publications. I also believe that parts of the theory are not to be dismissed, because they bring attention to some interesting topics. Overall the theory at the current stage it's not much more than a simple toy model, using the usual Lie group algebra techniques with a couple of new ideas (like the use of triality for the generations and of bosonic degrees of freedom to embed fermions), but at the moment the theory simply doesn't work because it cannot reproduce the known particles and interactions, it's been proven that cannot contain the three generations (unless Lisi finds a different (working, not alleged) way of defining fermionic fields), and has little to no predictions. But the physics community has a pretty big proliferation of models that turn out to be wrong or at the most just toy models, and this is one of the many, and it deserves some respect for that. The problem is that being a 'surfer dude' that lives in a different way with no academic position, the press has brought so much attention that people started creating a weird phenomenon around him. It is worth mentioning that Garrett was a guy who chose to dedicate a lot of years of his life just doing physics (unpaid!) while he was doing a million other things, and for this he deserves some respect because it means that he's really passionate about it. Then of course, maybe after the explosion of the phenomenon he made a few mistakes (in my opinion), but it's also hard to deal with the press and all that). But this has nothing to do with the theory he proposed, which is a theory and has to be judged just like all the other theories.

70.136.253.158 (talk) 22:35, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Is the above from Garrett Lisi? The reason I ask is that they falsely state that the theory has official peer-reviewed publications. No. It does not. Distler's peer-reviewed publication REFUTES Lisi's theory.

This vanity page/smolin media hype needs to be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.175.76.23 (talk) 07:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, your claim is specious. We do not delete theories because they are wrong: see every single article in the Category:Obsolete scientific theories. I still agree it needs trimming, but since it was widely publicized, that alone makes it notable, and thus is worthy of mention. And, as discussed before, there would be nothing wrong with adding more reliable sources verifying that the theory is not accepted in the mainstream community. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian is hilarious. Scientists do not spend time creating sources "verifying that the theory is not accepted in the mainstream community." They are too busy doing science. The fact that the Lisi/Smolin "theory" has never been accepted nor published in a mainstream journal, and that Lisi is not a mainstream academic, and that the only paper published on the theory REFUTES it, is more that enough to debunk it. Qwyrxian--you do understand that this was a mere media event propelled by Smolin in his "Smolinification of physics" campaign? Smolin hyped the theory as "fabulous" to the press early on. Google it, and update the article with the truth. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.165.87 (talk) 15:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not Lisi (I signed as 70.136.253.158 above, I often happen to write from different locations) and if you were a little more careful than any common troll you would understand that I'm saying that the theory doesn't work and that the article should be shortened, I'm the one who did the last revert and obviously am not trying to support a pro-Lisi POV. Also, with a little more attention, it's easy to see that I'm also the editor listed above with the IP 98.244.55.28, which very clearly proves that not everybody on this page has to be Lisi or Smolin like you are childishly assuming every time someone doesn't agree with you. Enough has been said about the theory, we pretty much all agree with the main meaning of what I think you are saying, except for Scientryst. There is no need to make all this superfluous noise. Which, by the way, gives very few results. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 03:56, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear Qwyrxian, here is some more information from reputable sources to help you along with your shortening of this vanity page: http://www.newscientist.com/blog/space/2008/08/surfer-physicist-gets-grant-to-study.html a physicist sums it up--lisi is smolin's $100,000,000 revenge: http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/writing-about-science-at-the-outer-limits/

To elaborate: After string theory was deplorably overhyped, a certain non-string faction in the community, feeling neglected and overlooked, decided ?Hey, we can play that game too?. A tussle ensued, with the non-stringers (LQG?ers, to be precise) casting themselves into the media spotlight as David versus the string theory Goliath. Enter Garrett Lisi with his ?theory of everything?. In normal circumstances it would have been ignored, but, in a case of what some might call spectacular opportunism, a certain leading figure from the non-string camp promotes it as ?fabulous? to his media contacts. Lisimania ensues. But for journalists trying to determine the true status of the work the task is not an easy one: Those physicists who in normal circumstances would have been consulted as the leading authorities in the field are mostly string theorists, active or complicit in previous overhyping of string theory. How can their dismissal of Lisi?s work be trusted as unbiased? And in any case, most of them have little desire to speak out on this. Who wants to take on the public role of ogre, out to suppress the delightful outsider with his bold new theory that has so fired the public?s imagination (without them having a clue about what it is about at the technical level)?

The media has been unable (and perhaps a bit unwilling) to identify physics authorities who could clarify the status of Lisi?s work, whose objectivity was beyond challenge. In such a vacuum, nonsense can easily flourish.

? Posted by a physicist http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/writing-about-science-at-the-outer-limits/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.165.87 (talk) 16:15, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I think we could shorten this article to, "Smolin funded and hyped a failed theory to the popular press, satirizing the string theorists, and further smolinifying physics." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.165.87 (talk) 15:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear Qwyrxian, how has your progress been coming? Have you been able to cut down the vanity page? We do hope you are feeling well and thank you for setting hings straight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.165.87 (talk) 17:40, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Exceptionally simple?????

I'm

${\displaystyle 99.{\bar {9}}\%}$

sure that I'll get into Stuyvesant High School, and I've read the Scientific American article. You'd expect me to get this E₈ theory. I just don't. I don't even understand basic Lie algebra. Is there a simple, non-technical explanation?????

Thanks,

The Doctahedron, 68.173.113.106 (talk) 04:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Description section

Per discussions above, and my own interpretation of how WP:UNDUE applies to this article, I have removed the entirety of the "Description" section. If the theory has never been supported by the scientific community, we should not be giving all of the details so much prominence here. Adding to this fact is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be a detailed technical discussion; while we do not shy away from the intricacies of science and math when necessary, we do not need to include everything that can be said just because it was said. Another way of saying this is that we (Misplaced Pages) should not allow this article to be an alternative venue for Lisi, to publish the details of his research. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the rest, it seems likely to me that the Chronology section also needs to be significantly shortened, because I don't think we need a blow-by-blow of all of the responses to the paper. Deciding on that will require more study, and others are welcome to take a crack at it in the meantime. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

. Yes, there is no need to provide every single little link to the popular media, to make the article seem important. If the article wants to be scientific, it needs to cite scientific sources (Which there are none, leading us to the conclusion that the article ought be deleted). If it wants to be about the poplar media, it needs to acknowledge through and through the reality and truth that the fabulous media hype was driven by Lee Smolin hyping the the failed theory as "fabulous" to his press contacts, preying on their trust, while also funding the failed theory with numerous grants.

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