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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Israeli settlement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

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Demographics – Any details?

For instance, do statistics of the settlers' religions exist? Are any other such characteristics available? -- 91.11.211.92 (talk) 19:37, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

If they are available anywhere I would have thought a good place try would be the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Land ownership, and "Peace Now"'s report

I added the following argument about their report:

This report is disputed by the government, who argue it cannot have been privately owned, as it was "not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state". On the specific issue of Ma'ale Adumim, Peace Now faced criticism for downgrading their estimate of the proportion built on privately owned Palestinian land from 86%, to 0.5%. The group's revision was based on government information which had newly been released to them. Similarly, an initial figure of 71% of the land on which Revava being private Palestinian land was revised to 22% following the release of additional information, and 'The Fund for Redeeming the Land' sued the group for libel. Peace Now was convicted, ordered to pay the Fund 20,000 NIS, and to make a public apology in the newspapers Haaretz and Maariv.

A few minutes later the paragraph was erased stating that the sources are "Partisan", and that some of the points are about single settlements. I do not understand this reasoning - the sources are Ha'aretz, Camera and nrg, and one of the sources is the governmental site, bringing Israel's official's answer. I can't see what is bad with the sources, and even if for any reason one of the sources isn't considered reliable, that is not a reason to erase the whole paragraph. And the fact that part of the points discuss single settlements also is not a reason to erase the data, since in these cases it was proven that the "Peace Now" report was far from accurate. Editorprop (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

That is a fairly partisan way of framing things. The original Peace Now report on Ma'ale Adumim was based on leaked Israeli government documents. The Israeli government declined to release official documents and was sued by Peace Now. Peace Now won that lawsuit and the government released the requested documents. As a result of this, Peace Now corrected its numbers. This is the problem with depending on CAMERA and other similar sources. They may get certain things right, like Peace Now issued a correction for a prior estimate, but they slant it in such a way that the story is almost unrecognizable. And in the end, this isnt an article about Peace Now or their settlement reports. Peace Now has released up to date material based on official government records, including the Sasson report. That entire section needs to be rewritten so that it discusses the actual issue at hand, land ownership, not this pretend issue that is in any event not relevant to this article, that being the actual report. Also, though going in the wrong direction, the first sentence in your edit conflates unrelated ideas, one being whether or not the property was privately owned and the other being whether or not the property is on occupied territory. Under international law, a state may not transfer its own population into or the native population out of territory it holds under military occupation. This is the reason why nearly the entire world considers all Israeli settlements to be illegal under international law. That is not affected by whether or not the actual area that a settlement is built on is privately or publicly owned. Israel argues, most of the time, that Jordan was not a legal occupant of the West Bank and as such the West Bank is not occupied territory. That is why Israel "disputes" that the settlements themselves are illegal under international law. A separate topic is whether or not the actual land that a settlement was built on was illegally expropriated from a private owner. That is what the Peace Now reports deal with, property that was privately owned by Palestinians that was expropriated, in violation of Israeli, not international, law. nableezy - 19:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Demographics

I haven't found in the resources the data of the just 2300 Jews in East Jerusalem in 1948. According to the data in Demographics of Jerusalem the population in the whole Jerusalem was of 100 000 Jews, 40 000 Muslims and 25 000 Christians in the same year. --Enkiduk (talk) 19:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Link 52

The 52nd cited link is broken, I don't know how to fix it but if someone could either find the right link or take it down and the information taken from it that would be great! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.74.104.106 (talk) 12:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Colony vs Civilian Community

I changed the opening sentences of the article and my edits were reverted. The original paragraph was:

An Israeli settlement is a Jewish civilian community built on land that was captured by Israel from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War and is considered occupied territory by the international community. Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank. Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognize Israel's annexations of these territories.

and I changed it to this:

An Israeli settlement is an Israeli colony illegally built on land captured by Israel from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War. These colonies are built on occupied territory. Such unlawful settlements currently exist in the West Bank. There are also Israeli colonies in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel.

My rationale for rephrasing the paragraph was that you don't call dwellings on illegally occupied territories civilian communities but colonies.

Another reason is that the emotional impact of the former is little more than this:

The strike on Twin Towers on 11 September, 2001 was a violent act committed by some students getting pilot training in the United States. This led to the death of more than 3,000 people including the students after they knowingly smashed their planes in the buildings. The international community considers it an act of terrorism but this view is not universal and has its critics who claim the students acted out of frustration.

I was told to make my case here. That's good. So, anyone who thinks what I did was wrong? And kindly tell why? :)

Sin un nomine (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm copying this from my talk page as it belongs here. If you think the article and its lead do not give due weight to the view that these are colonies and the occupation is an act of colonization, you need to compile high quality (preferably academic) secondary sources that examine and describe this perspective, then make your case. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

1. Israeli Settlements and International Law Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, May 20, 2001.
2. Alex Safian: Peace Now’s Blunder: Erred on Ma'ale Adumim Land by 15,900 Percent CAMERA March 16, 2007.
3. Shragai, Nadav (2007-03-14). "Peace Now: 32% of land held for settlements is private Palestinian property". Haaretz. Retrieved 2009-07-06. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
4. "שלום עכשיו יפצו מתנחלים ב-20 אלף ש'" (in Hebrew). nrg Maariv. 2008-12-14. Retrieved 2009-07-06. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)

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