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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability

Discussion moved to /WP:V RFC. Timestamp changed to future until the discussion is over. Alexandria (talk) 15:50, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

• Well, this move was made just after I made a comment that I intended to be on ANI. I hope, at least, that those who are paying attention will continue to watch the new page. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Closing the RfC at WP:V (a preemptive request)

OK... we are now at 30 days (remember, October had 31 days)... we don't have to close yet, but we could close today if we want to. I could close it myself (as the initiator of the RfC), except that I have certainly been heavily involved (far more than Sarek was) and I don't want give anyone (on either side of the debate) grounds to object to the closure when it happens and cause more unneeded drama. Given the tensions and general bad faith that has permeated the discussion recently, I think we need the closer to be someone who not only is neutral, but also has the appearance of neutrality. That means someone who has not commented at all. So... I thought I would ask...who is going to close it? I would like to announce who it will be, so we don't get a drama fest of closures and unclosures and counter closures when it happens. Blueboar (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• Looks messy! 115.64.182.73 (talk) 00:35, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
• You need 3 closers to reach an agreed outcome to avoid further drama. Not me.. :-) Spartaz 07:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

  Valid idea... although I don't think anyone involved would insist on 3 closers. The point is, a) the closer(s) should be someone who has not yet commented, b) have the clout that comes with admin status so the decision (what ever it may be) is accepted, and c) we need to inform those who have commented who the closer(s) will be (along with a polite request that those involved not add to the drama by closing it themselves). So... could we get some volunteers please. Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

  I assume you didn't read ANI recently, as we have an ANI subpage devoted to this now. Over there at least 3 admins have volunteered to close it: User:HJ Mitchell, User:Newyorkbrad and User:Black Kite. I personally think a triumvirate closure, like recently on the China RFC is a good idea, but I will leave it to the admins in question to work this out amongst themselfs. I am curious where you got the idea that the an iniator of an RFC should close it? The iniator is by definition heavily involved, so that is always a bad idea. Yoenit (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Yoenit. That is all I needed to know (I too am happy to leave the rest up to the admins in question). I got the idea that an initiator could close from reading the instructions at WP:RFC. Perhaps I have misunderstood. Doesn't really matter since I was not planning on doing so in any case. Blueboar (talk) 15:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Safe to archive?

Is the discussion (for now) at WP:V over with? It's hard to parse it at the moment. Alexandria (chew out) 16:25, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Not over... just temporarily on hold as we wait for a triumvirate of admins to officialy close the the RfC. Their determination this will determine the direction further discussions will take (for example, will we be using the current text as a base line for further discussions and edits, or will we using the proposed text as a base line?) Blueboar (talk) 13:38, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Recent events as of 8 December

Unfortunately, of the three uninvolved admins who volunteered to close this big RfC (HJ Mitchell, Black Kite and Newyorkbrad), one is known to have been unavailable and one has not made a single edit in almost a week. That leaves only HJ Mitchell. In discussions that spread over WT:V#It doesn't take this long to determine consensus, User talk:Newyorkbrad#WP:V, User talk:Cla68#WP:V RfC, User talk:HJ Mitchell#WP:V and possibly further locations, it appears that HJ Mitchell got the impression that it is OK for him to co-opt Cla68, resulting in a committee of 4 edits with 2 actually available. Cla68 accordingly created a "deliberation page" in his user space.

In my opinion this is highly inappropriate, even though the initial reactions were agreement by two editors (Nuujinn, Blueboar) and no protest. Cla68 is not an admin (not really necessary, but his failed RfA sheds some light on whether this is the right kind of person for the job), is not completely uninvolved as he voted in an earlier RfC about the same policy sentence (again not completely necessary), and whether he is in good standing depends on whether someone under an active Arbcom sanction qualifies for that. More importantly, the ARBCC topic ban was for, among other things:

• battlefield conduct – disqualifies him from determining consensus in a way that will contribute to a peaceful and lasting resolution
• inappropriate use of sources – disqualifies him from determining consensus on the first sentence of WP:V.

In order to give the immediate negative feedback that people need if they are to learn anything from their mistakes, I nominated the "deliberation page" for deletion. See WP:Miscellany for deletion/User:Cla68/Deliberation page. Hans Adler 13:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Bell Pottinger

As you may be aware, the PR firm Bell Pottinger have been caught editing articles on behalf of their clients. Following an investigation led by Jimmy Wales, and with assistance from WilliamH (talk · contribs), Keegan (talk · contribs), Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk · contribs) and Panyd (talk · contribs), we have identified at least 10 accounts belonging to Bell Pottinger, only two of which are particularly active (100+ edits). At no time were any of them considered respected community members, nor did they skew any votes or gain any rights beyond autoconfirmed. Most of their edits were reverted. A report will be coming later in the week detailing things a bit better.

In the meantime, these articles were edited by Bell Pottinger accounts, and will need checking for factual accuracy and neutrality. It is not necessarily a list of clients of the company, and there may be false positives mixed in, as well as articles which have had undue negative (as opposed to positive) weight put on them - please pick something you’re knowledgeable in and give it a good scrub down. Most articles only have an errant commercial paragraph, but some will need more work. Mark the articles with  Done on this list when you’re finished.

On behalf of Jimmy, Keegan, WilliamH, Chase and Panyd, The Cavalry (Message me) 12:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Why is this here? Seems like fact checker and editing are editor, not administrator, functions. Seems like one of those banners that appear above watchlists (e.g. like the ArbCom elections) would be more appropriate. Gerardw (talk) 13:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It's headline news in two European countries, is causing a major political scandal in the UK, and involves sock/meatpuppetry from 10+ accounts. See the article in The Independent at http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/wikipedia-founder-attacks-bell-pottinger-for-ethical-blindness-6273836.html. We need somewhere to discuss it, and this is an incident which administrators will be interested in, and which administrators can help with. I honestly think that this is the best place to have a preliminary discussion, and to get as many 'eyes on' the issue as we can. The Cavalry (Message me) 13:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

A list of the accounts involved can be found here. WilliamH (talk) 13:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Isn't this an incident which editors will be interested in, and which editors can help with? As there are far more editors than administrators, getting as many eyes on implies targeting all editors (which naturally includes administrators). Gerardw (talk) 13:28, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this sort of thing could go on WP:VPM (although we do seem to use this place as a general noticeboard..) --Errant 13:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

This is also the most watched noticeboard, as far as I'm aware. Regardless, it looks like several editors have found it already ;-) The Cavalry (Message me) 13:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I am confident that this is a pervasive problem because of how we traditionally (and procedurally) treat PR editors; good work all round in tracking down the accounts and articles in this case :) --Errant 13:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I daresay this will be cross-posted in several places, but bearing in mind that over 5000 accounts alone have this page on their watch list, and that this is a significant incident requiring admin intervention, this is definitely a good place to get eyes on this. And thank you. WilliamH (talk) 13:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm with those who think this was the wrong venue. It took me the longest time to figure out the difference between AN and ANI, but I eventually realized that ANI is for Incidents that Require Immediate Admin attention. AN is more an announcements board – items there may be extremely important, but they do not necessarily require immediate action by admins. Technically we don't have the right kind of board to cover "extremely Important Announcements of interest to all editors". Absent the ideal board, AN is the best option as a high traffic notice board, but not ANI. It creates a bad precedent, for anyone thinking something is very important and it ought to get a lot of eyes on it. --SPhilbrickT 14:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I was rather hoping we could focus on the issue at hand as a priority - I will look into moving this all to WP:AN instead if people prefer that venue. The key issue here is not which noticeboard this is posted on, but instead that we have a list of articles that need fixing and a rapidly evolving news story. Let's not get bogged down in Parkinson's Law of Triviality! The Cavalry (Message me) 14:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Though the investigation may lead to actions by administrators and so this noticeboard is okay, I would support closing this thread and moving the discussion to AN as a stable space to consider general impact and a consistent set of actions, across what might be a wide group of accounts, for administrators with an eye to future policy improvement. Flagging it here was a good move to quickly attract interest by experienced folks, but this is more than an incident that might be resolved in 24 hours. Fæ (talk) 14:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Re: "nor did they skew any votes".. see this AfD. Gobonobo 15:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Ugh, well spotted. Fixed now. The Cavalry (Message me) 15:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Only in our bureaucratic nightmares did I dream we'd be discussing whether or not this is the appropriate noticeboard for the notice and not discussing the contents of the notice. Keegan (talk) 16:00, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Note that an editor requested page protection and reversion deletion of User:Biggleswiki at RFPP. I am just going to refer this back to you because it's too complicated for someone to handle at RFPP without any background knowledge. Please make the appropriate judgment on page protection/oversight. Malinaccier (talk) 16:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I've created this (temporary) template which should be added to the suspected articles. The template should be deleted when things get sorted out. PaoloNapolitano 18:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Ugh, no that's not a great idea - way overkill. This is best handled on the one page - no need to slap templates about. No need to revdel or protect the user pages either. --Errant 21:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I saw this on the news and immediately went to ANI to find the relevant discussion, its the obvious place for it. That being said, the accounts are blocked so is there anything left to do? Have the relevant articles been POV-checked? ThemFromSpace 18:12, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

See status list for POV checking updates. Gerardw (talk) 18:45, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Boris Berezovsky

Boris Berezovsky (businessman) is a client of Bell Pottinger and there is an admitted COI editor on the article (User:Kolokol1) - Kolokol is the URL for International Foundation for Civil Liberties (as well as being a chemical agent used in warfare, from which the foundation obviously takes their URL - the foundation being used in "warfare" against its opponents). The foundation is run by Alex Goldfarb, a close Berezovsky associate, who came to public recognition during the Litvinenko affair when he headed the Berezovsky PR campaign. The foundation itself is funded by Berezovsky. Berezovsky is a client of BP, and Goldfarb too has used BP for PR exercises, as per this and this. A legal case in the UK recently began in which Berezovsky is suing Roman Abramovich for billions of dollars, and in the lead up to the beginning of the case, the article has seen a whitewashing of the Berezovsky biographical article by Kolokol.

• Here Kolokol1 is asked to declare whether they have a COI
• Kolokol1 refuses to respond directly to the question
• After again being asked, Kolokol1 states he has "an interest in Mr. Berezovsky being treated fairly and objectively"
• Here Kolokol1 confirms "For the record, I am associated with several Russian dissidents, including the subject, you can call it COI, I don't care."
• Talk:Boris Berezovsky (businessman)/Archive 3 and Talk:Boris Berezovsky (businessman) is full of instances where the editor has used cited policies and the like, which once reading this, put some things into perspective. There are many instances of Kolokol1 stating for the record that it was his intent to remove negative information from the article, regardless of what it was, using WP:BLP reasoning for doing so, regardless of the use of only highly respectable and reliable scholarly sources, yet engaged in original research and falsification of information as per this and this, and argued for this to be kept in the article.
• The editor's edits to the article have been mainly subtle changes, which when looked at individually do not raise alarm bells to those who are not well-informed on the subject. When looked at overall, the edits to the informed editor look like a PR hatchet job in the leadup to Berezovsky's lawsuit, and I made note of this on the talk page only a few days ago.
• This subject is a little unusual, in that one would need to make use of both English and Russian language sources to paint the picture that was desired, so I probably wouldn't expect BP IPs to be utilised, unless they have fluent Russian speakers on staff, but the hatchet job on the article is obvious to editors who are familiar with the subject. But obviously it is unacceptable that an admitted COI editor was given free reign by the community to perform the hatchet job on the article in the runup to the beginning of a highly public court case involving Berezovsky. Y u no be Russavia 23:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Crikey, didn't we have some indef blocks due to this topic not all that long ago? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes we did. Deepdish7 (talk · contribs) was indef blocked after he expanded the article, which did have some problems but which weren't fixable, and which was reverted wholesale by Kolokol1. DD7 was eventually blocked for disruptive editing, after he kept inserting the information which was being reverted by Kolokol1, and other editors (who were obviously unfamiliar with the subject matter). It is wrong that an admitted COI editor was allowed to continue to edit the article, especially after they all but declared they were going to perform a hatchet job on it. Y u no be Russavia 23:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

BWilkins, Russavia takes every opportunity to dredge up his already-discussed complaints about the Berezovsky article and certain editors involved in it. I really don't see what any of this has to do with this topic (Russavia did the same tacking on to another topic at ANI recently where he happily dragged me through his imagined mud). Even assuming Berezovsky is a client of this PR firm (I don't see a source for that, but Russavia believes in the drowning-you-in-links approach that only occasionally support what he says), what does that have to do with anything? Anyway, for those masochistic enough to care, here are a couple of previous discussions at ANI about Berezovsky: and .--Bbb23 (talk) 23:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• There are already two sources. But here's another which clearly states:

Other entries changed by accounts associated with Bell Pottinger include those of the founder of the law firm Carter Ruck, London-based Russian oligarch Boris Berezovsky, the Central Bank of Sri Lanka and at least two large financial firms.

It is a well-known fact, to any knowledgeable editor, that Berezovsky is close friends with Timothy_Bell,_Baron_Bell, and this friendship and client relationship is even mentioned and sourced in that article. Y u no be Russavia 23:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The link to the list of problem articles is in the opening of this topic. Berezovsky's article is on that list. Why did you need to single out the Berezovsky article, AND why did you need to go through the history of your complaints about the article? There's no reason for the Berezovsky article to be singled out. This entire subsection you've created has no business being here. It's just you and your pet peeve.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that we should create a "Promotional editing noticeboard" where concerns over users posting promotional content to several articles should be taken forward. Additionally, users who have been flagged several times for promotional editing should be reported to the noticeboard so the appropriate actions can be taken. PaoloNapolitano 20:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow, another noticeboard, just what we need. Sort of a WP:COIN for multiple offenders. I hope not.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Commercial and promotional editing is a much bigger issue than plain COIs. By having a separate noticeboard we can raise awareness and much more easily get the "bad guys" out of the game. PaoloNapolitano 20:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Very decent of you not to respond in kind to my sarcasm. I'll let others with more historical knowledge decide whether your suggestion has merit.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The links provided above, like this and especially this one show the editor's connection to the subject too obviously (the editor says: "I am associated with several Russian dissidents, including the subject, you can call it COI, I don't care".) Given this statement, and since Berezovsky article is known by now to have been involved in promotion by Bell Pottinger, I suppose that it requires more attention and perhaps a separate investigation. GreyHood 20:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I dont' see how the two links you pick out justify a "separate investigation". First, they don't demonstrate that the editor is part of the PR firm at issue here. Second, if you have evidence he was, then it would be better to add that to the list of articles at the top of this topic with the editor's name (the list identifies editors for the Berezovsky article but not Kolokol1).--Bbb23 (talk) 21:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The editor openly declares connection to the subject and says (s)he doesn't care if it is considered COI. The subject of the article is involved in the current court proceedings with billions of dollars at stake. The article is found to be involved in promotional editing by other editors from Bell Pottinger, and the subject is a client of this firm. So, on one hand, we have evidence that commercial promotion attempts (direct violation of COI) are going on the subject of the article, and on the other hand we have an editor who declares connection to the subject, declares COI, gives hints through the username that (s)he might be connected to an organization connected to the subject. GreyHood 21:41, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

If that's what you think, then I would voice these concerns at Misplaced Pages:Bell Pottinger COI Investigations rather than here.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

What I mean there should be some consistency in treatment of COI. If we have a small 100% proven COI at one article, but do not pay attention to another huge COI in the same article, declared by the user personally, that's strange. GreyHood 22:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

But the declared COI was taken into account at the time of resolving the rather messy editing situation of the Berezovsky article, by far more neutral admins and editors than Russavia. I long ago stopped even looking at the Berezovsky article because of the level of discord associated with it, but it seems to have worked itself out. Now Russavia - and to some extent you - want to bring it up again in light of this topic. If it's related to this topic, it belongs in that list. If not, but you and Russavia believe it merits revisiting the article, then start a new topic on the article and on that issue. God help anyone who has to evaluate it, though.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:44, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposed community ban for Bell Pottinger

Because the current situation may create a want on the part of Bell Pottinger to do "damage control" or hinder efforts to the group of wikipedian's investigating, I like to propose that:

1. All known IP addresses that belong to Bell Pottinger company, broadly construed, be banned from the English Misplaced Pages for a finite period of at least 3 months, and reviewed afterwords to see if their continued ban beyond this time frame is appropriate.

2. All editors found editing for/on behalf of Bell Pottinger for the purpose of paid editing or advocacy, be blocked for the remainder of the time frame that Bell Pottinger is banned. Phearson (talk) 02:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

In my mind this is already done. The underlying IPs we have for Bell Pottinger and Chime Communications are blocked indef, and we're indef blocking accounts as we find them. There's nothing constructive from public relations firms editing encyclopedia articles, even if the pretext is to make things "factual" and "neutral point of view". Keegan (talk) 03:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing constructive from public relations firms editing encyclopedia articles, even if the pretext is to make things "factual" and "neutral point of view". - says who?  Volunteer Marek  04:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, says me, for one. I'm speaking from my experience of what has happened every time we have issues with SEOs, PR firms, and paid editing: every time an instance is uncovered, credibility is eroded and man-hours are wasted reviewing what are generally POV just "harmless" editing. In the long run if people kept their financial interest away from editing Misplaced Pages, even perceived to be constructive, the project is better off based on our model. Remember this very important thing: they are editing because of our popularity, not because of our mission. I'd love to know how many donate. Keegan (talk) 07:28, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I have made that argument before, but have been challenged in that regard. Paid editing is still allowed on Misplaced Pages as long as it is within our rules. However in this case, you are correct. This PR firm I think needs an officially sanctioned Ban though. Phearson (talk) 04:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe. But any kind of ban should be based on documented violations of policy not "oh this might make us look bad so we're gonna engage in some dubious PR ourselves by just ban hammerin'" Volunteer Marek  04:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

As Keegan just said...that is already essentially in place. Swarm 05:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

No, Keegan just expressed his own opinion on the matter. S/he's of course entitled to it but the question is "what basis does this opinion have in actual policy". WHERE is this "essentially in place" (the use of the weasel word "essentially" is not really helping here). I see no diffs or evidence here. Volunteer Marek  05:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek is correct, I stated that this was my opinion. I'm a he, fwiw. Keegan (talk) 07:28, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

PR firms are not doing their jobs and should not be paid if they have a neutral point of view. Schalice (talk) 21:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Strong support. A sustained campaign of sneaky editing despite an egregious violation of WP:COI and WP:NPOV is a valid reason for banning. To pile more onto that, it's also a violation of WP:SOAP — if you edit in order to make your client look good, you're definitely using Misplaced Pages as a means of promotion. These terms are policy: they've violated multiple major policies. Nyttend (talk) 05:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

A sustained campaign of sneaky editing despite an egregious violation of WP:COI and WP:NPOV - if this is true then you'll have no problem providing actual evidence and diffs of this "egregious violation". Also, from what I understand of the case, WP:SOAP is completely irrelevant here - did this account pontificate and rant and rave on talk pages somewhere? If so, where? You're just throwing irrelevant Misplaced Pages boogeyman code-names just to make something look "bad". Evidence please, or spare me the misguided and/or phony outrage. Volunteer Marek  05:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Evidence is in their contributions. Moreover, they're a PR firm: they have no business-related reason to edit except to make their clients look good; if you'd read what I wrote after the dash, you would have understood that. Note my adjective of "sneaky" — you won't find this in any specific contributions. You need to look at their overall contributions and their rationale for editing. Nyttend (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, for the moment - Jimmy is supposed to be giving a talk to them on how to edit Misplaced Pages ethically, being open about who they are. I'd hate to see his talk scuppered by a blanket ban. In addition, some of the articles actually added useful content - for example, Mbombe and Maverick (Internal Security Vehicle), which are pretty decent start-class articles that were created by Bell Pottinger. Let's not jump the gun here. The Cavalry (Message me) 06:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Lol. It's hard to keep up with the official policy of the Kremlin on these matters these days. What does Uncle Jimbo desire at the moment? Maybe we misread his intentions and we better back track. Seriously, we have actual policies in place, and the only question is whether or not these accounts violated actual policy. Anything else is empty posturing and fake outrage. And oh, I like how we're admitting now that there WAS in fact something constructive done by these accounts (as opposed to the previous "There's nothing constructive from public relations firms editing encyclopedia articles") - but perhaps that's just realizing up to the fact that edit-for-pay, COI-driven, company sponsored accounts are actually more competent and more respectful of Misplaced Pages policy - as she is written - than your average know-nothing editors, including, or especially those that spend their time populating drama boards such as this one. At the end of the day it's still the "Encyclopedia that anyone can edit" (which includes people affiliated with some company) and us content editors usually kneel down at the altar of discuss content not editors. Why should that be thrown out the window? Show me the damage done, then we can talk. Volunteer Marek  08:47, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, with all due respect, you can't have even looked at the evidence in the most cursory way to imply that they didn't break existing policy in very dramatic ways. The policy violations are numerous and clear. They violated WP:SOCK in multiple regards, including multiple-voting in polls. There are many instances in the record of blatantly dishonest edit summaries. There is more than enough evidence to indef ban the ip number per the proposal. At the same time, in my talk last night with Lord Bell, they appear to finally be understanding that they have behaved badly and need to make amends. Given the media scrutiny they are under, and that I am personally going to read them the riot act, there is every possibility that they will become model citizens going forward. But I'll go further: policy at Misplaced Pages is going to change to make it even more clear that PR firms can not behave in this way without facing the consequences.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:32, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

they appear to finally be understanding that they have behaved badly and need to make amends; as a PR friend of mine said once - "All is fair in love and war, and PR". Including doing the "right thing" every now and again. Apply doses of salt accordingly. --Errant 09:39, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• Regretful oppose for the reason stated by Cavalry. One of the few downsides of my lifelong atheism is that I cannot coherently wish for people to spend an eternity in hell being continuously raped, tortured and punished by Lucifer et al., which is what I would rather like dishonest PR consultants, sleazy marketing douchebags and deceptive spin merchants like Bell Pottinger to be subjected to. As Cavalry points out, let Jimbo talk to Bell Pottinger. If that doesn't go ahead, or they are not receptive to operating appropriately, then community ban the whole company. But if they are receptive to changing their ways, give them a chance. I'm sceptical: the idea of "ethical PR" makes about as much sense to me as a square circle or a functioning train system in London. But let's wait and see if Jimbo can have any effect. —Tom Morris (talk) 08:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds - Emerson. Go ahead and wish. Gerardw (talk) 20:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• • Ah, well, I think it is not hard to understand the concept of ethical PR! Misplaced Pages itself has many volunteer press contacts who work to bring good work to the attention of the press and to stand ready to answer questions from the press. Other organizations, without a large and well-informed volunteer community, hire people to do that same kind of work. There's nothing inherently nefarious about it at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Jimbo raises a good point about himself, actually. His participation in the investigation has been as a volunteer, he's talked to the press as a contact about the story as a volunteer, and he'd be speaking to Bell Pottinger as a volunteer. His only vested interest, as is ours, is the best interest of use of this website. Keegan (talk) 07:50, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support. De facto they are banned already, of course, in the sense that no admin would unblock an obvious Bell Pottinger account. Regardless of the general question of paid editing, competence is required for editing Misplaced Pages and this company has proved that they do not have it. Some form of paid editing may be acceptable, but a firm that regularly creates articles full of puffery, edits non-neutrally, creates absurd coatracks such as a section about this house in Giano's Blenheim Palace article, and occasionally even votestacks in AfDs – such a firm is clearly not a net positive for Misplaced Pages.
  Of course they may acquire the necessary competence at some point in the future, or they may outsource the Misplaced Pages aspects of their business to someone more competent. Nevertheless they should be banned indefinitely. Indefinite does not mean infinite. Once they have their shop in order and want to resume editing Misplaced Pages, they can contact Jimbo, the Foundation or the community directly with supporting information, and based on that the community can then lift the ban. Whether that is in their interest from a PR angle is not our problem. Hans Adler 11:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

  Response to the argument that we shouldn't act because Jimbo is already in charge of the matter: I am not changing my !vote because I would prefer any hate caused among Bell Pottinger and their clients to be directed against an essentially anonymous crowd rather than targeting Jimbo. I think the community would be much more immune to any attempts at retaliation. Hans Adler 16:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: WP:COIN states "This noticeboard may be used to... get help with proposed article changes if you are affected by a conflict of interest. Propose changes at the article talk page, and then leave a message here...." Presumably Jimbo is offering the same or similar guidance according to the opposition above. It might be best to try to shunt paid editors into an established process than go directly to challenging a socking arms race. 67.6.163.68 (talk) 12:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Jimbo is in discussion with them. It's senseless to ban them while this is a developing issue. WilliamH (talk) 16:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WilliamH. Off Wiki actions by Jimbo are in progress. We shouldn't do anything in the interim. Propose it again if you still believe it justified after Jimbo has finished dealing with it. --GraemeL 16:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Jimbo can ban them if need be. If he doesn't see fit to do so, and instead pursues discussions with them, I don't see how a community ban would be productive in any sense whatsoever. Swarm 04:10, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment To those opposing on the basis of "Jimbo is talking to them". We need to remember that wikipedia is (mostly) controlled by volunteers, and by consensus has the power to apply punishment and restrictions where need be and whenever. I think that the proposed ban is reasonable given that they have violated WP policy (Jimbo has also supported this statement) and have harmed our position that we provide an unbiased and 💕 to the world's public. We need to send a very clear signal to this company and others like it that what they have done will not be tolerated. Might I remind everyone the actions of Scientology and what arbcom did about it? Phearson (talk) 05:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose, at least for now, in order to allow this experiment in "ethical PR" to continue under Jimbo's supervision.   Will Beback  talk  08:23, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
• Weak oppose – Yeah, what they did was unacceptable – we know about that, they know about that, and most importantly the media knows about that. I'm more content in letting the media backlash (as well as Jimbo, who has done a good job in handling this, BTW) do its work on them in contrast to our community having to do something about it. Now, as with Scientology, if it gets worse, then I'll support a more absolute and harsh ban, but until then, it's not really necessary at this point. –MuZemike 09:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose While I support the sentiment, Bell Pottinger are not allowed to edit per WP:ROLE only individuals are allowed to edit, therefore only individuals can be banned. Anyone editing with a significant COI should consider declaring that COI - this includes employees and "friends" of Bell Pottinger working on associated articles. In some cases they should limit their edits to the talk page. But these are individual matters. We are constantly getting more or less enlightened edits from people with COI, and we deal with them on an individual basis, by and large, successfully. (Moreover we are getting better at it.) Rich Farmbrough, 19:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC).
  
• Comment WP:COI and WP:SPAM effectively ban all organisations and individuals from writing about topics they have a commercial relationship with in a way that could promote that topic. As such, there's no particular need to single out Bell Pottinger by formally banning them. A larger solution of tracking professional spammers would be in order though. Nick-D (talk) 05:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support The only reason for Bell Pottinger to edit Misplaced Pages is to do it on behalf of a client who have paid Bell Pottinger for their services. Bell Pottinger has as such a COI and edits Misplaced Pages solely to promote their clients. WP:COI clearly states: "Accounts that appear, based on their editing history, to be single-purpose accounts that exist for the sole or primary purpose of promotion (e.g., of a person, company, product, service, website, or organization), in apparent violation of this guideline, should be warned and made aware of this guideline. If the same pattern of editing continues after the warning, the account may be blocked. PaoloNapolitano 19:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose I think this specific measure is unnecessary/overkill; I believe all the concerns can be dealt with through existing policy-supported methods.  Chzz  ►  05:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Email abuse from Mailinator address

I have twice previously reported abusive emails (apparently from Jarlaxle Artemis) sent to me via Misplaced Pages email, from accounts registered using Mailinator address. I have today received several dozen more such messages. All were sent from the same Mailinator address used by previously blocked users. How is it possible for a serial vandal to continue registering accounts and to send email from an address already known to be used for such abuse and threats? RolandR (talk) 09:07, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

My memory of the previous discussions is there is currently no way to block domains from being used for the email function. Considering the very large number of alternative mailnator domains and the fact the's no published list I wonder whether approaching Mailinator about it may be a better bet. Since they don't actually send emails, they don't really have an address to contact them about abuse but it seems they do have scripts to try and stop abuse. And says that if people ask nicely and there is a good reason for it they may stop accepting emails for the site. Perhaps if someone here were to ask nicely they may do that for us. Since we don't require emails to sign up I think it's questionable why people would need to use mailinator. And while we could implement methods to reduce abuse like captchas, it would take resources that may be better put to other users. Something along those lines may be enough to convince them to block people getting wikipedia stuff. Of course this won't help with the large number of other stuff disposabile no signup email address services but I guess it's a start Nil Einne (talk) 10:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Which are the accounts? Sending an e-mail from one's Misplaced Pages account is a logged action, viewable by us CheckUsers (the contents and recepient is not). Even if the account edited and was created out of the scope of CU retrieval, it could still help in forming, for example, a range block. WilliamH (talk) 15:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Rianhoxie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Vlyvtrmln (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). RolandR (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Both unsurprisingly confirmed, along with several other accounts. The IP was blocked a couple of days ago. The accounts in question were created as sleepers a while ago to avoid CheckUser detection. Sorry I can't suggest anything better, but the only option at the moment (if only applicable to you), would be to disable e-mail on your account. WilliamH (talk) 17:52, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Several editors have already disablred email because of abusive messages (including death threats) from this vandal. So we have a situation where one determined bully can successfully disrupt the running of Misplaced Pages, preventing numerous legitimate editors from fully accessing the features of the project. This is not good enough, and I do not get the impression that this problem is being addressed is taken seriousl. If Misplaced Pages cannot prevent a racist thug from misusing the email facility to abuse editors, then it would be better to disable the option entirely for all editors, rather than oblige those of us who face this to cut ourselves off. RolandR (talk) 22:48, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Your impression is mislaid - it is taken seriously, it's being discussed in the appropriate places, and I would be surprised if a technical solution won't be established. WilliamH (talk) 00:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that assurance, but can you say where discussion is occurring?. I strongly agree with RolandR's point: it is unacceptable that MediaWiki has no ability to stop an idiot from abusing editors in such an obvious manner. Johnuniq (talk) 01:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I mean, all I can say is that "anybody can edit" is a double-edged sword – letting good faith people to edit implies letting people to abuse it at the same time. I doubt the WMF will allow that to happen anytime soon, I'm afraid. I don't personally see how anything can be done about it. –MuZemike 08:51, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure, but resources will never be used for issues like this unless the community demands action. How many emails can an abusive new user send? There should be an edit filter system based on things like account age and edit count, whereby an established editor can email anything, a moderately new user is subject to some filtering, and a new user is subject to strong filtering and rate limiting. I understand that blacklisting mail systems is a never-ending game, but allowing mailinator accounts is obviously stupid (any reply to such an email is posted to a public website). Johnuniq (talk) 09:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

But then, you start shuttering out newcomers, which the WMF will not allow on their money or watch; they shot down the proposal for only (auto)confirmed users to create new articles for a reason – that is the direction in which they are going. –MuZemike 09:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages operates by consensus...except when WMF doesn't want it to. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Just received a further 70 such abusive messages from Esechicano12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). That makes 150 so far this month, and nearly 600 in the past six months. I can't believe that there is no way to prevent this abuse, and I am angry that the only solution offered is that I disable my own email, thus preventing legitimate editors from contacting me. It's all very well to worry about not alienating new users; but what about alienating well-established editors?

It seems to me this isn't really the same thing though. The email function isn't needed for creating articles. For those who do need to contact relevant places, email addresses are published so there's no real need to use the email function. Perhaps most importantly this isn't just about problems in our content creation but about editorss suffering unacceptable harrassment and abuse. It seems to me it's something the WMF should consider worth spending time on unless they want to alienate editors. I haven't received any of these emails but if the WMF really considers this something not worth worrying about this sends a message to me they don't care about editors. I presume WilliamH has an idea of what they're talking about so I'm guessing this isn't the case. The Captcha idea would hopefully at least make it more difficult for mass emails like the 70 at once. Or rate-limiting new users (even if the WMF really considered new users need to have access to the email function, I can't see why they need to be able to send 70 in I presume a day or 2).

Also I wonder whether the IPs involved are open proxies or belong to ISPs? Oviously for privacy reasons the details can't be revealed, but what I'm thinking is while I suspect the WMF probably doesn't consider it worth the time of checkusers to attempt to pursue normal abusers with their ISPs (WP:Abuse response shows that often doesn't work) it seems to me if the problem can't be resolved technically they should seriously consider contacting ISPs in cases like this if there's a chance that may work (i.e. it's not open proxies). ISPs are also much more likely to be cooperative when it's persistent harassment and abuse of individuals rather then simple but persistent vandalism. (The privacy policy seems to allow this.) ~

Nil Einne (talk)

And now I have received a further 70 vile racist emails from Kahanadada (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), with specific death threats and links to a website attacking me. Misplaced Pages must take steps to prevent such harassment of editors. RolandR (talk) 10:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Another interim suggestion: if it's all from the same domain, why not simply block the domain in your e-mail account? The filters in Gmail can be highly customised. WilliamH (talk) 12:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok so to be pro-active about this I sent an email to the ops mailing list to see if there is a quick way to resolve this (obviously it is an urgent matter!). If that falls through I guess the next step would be to make the Foundation aware - getting it on their radar as an issue will be a good thing. --Errant 12:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the step to inform the developers (wikitech-l is the developer's list, generally you can only get ops attention directly on IRC). I'm not sure ops can handle this, as we shouldn't block an entire email service, since it could also block email for legitimate users. The developers may come up with some technical solution. I recommend continuing to block the sockpuppets are they pop up. --Ryan lane (talk) 21:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason for anyone to be able to send 70 emails a day thru wikipedia, without an advanced permission. I'm surprised there aren't much worse spam problems with wikipedia email than there already are. The default limit should be 2 destination addresses per day and 2 emails per destination address (all email after the 2nd automatically discarded unless the recipient clicks a link opting into accepting more). The WMF shot down limiting new article creation? Blech, they are silly. Getting their first articles and images deleted frustrates newbies incredibly. 66.127.55.52 (talk) 13:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that this account has been sending far more than 70 emails a day. That is just what I am receiving, and I'm sure I'm not the only target. As I noted above, I am aware of at least two editors who have disabled their email access as a result of this harassment. RolandR (talk) 16:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

And I've just received a further 80 90 abusive emails from Thossmeyer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This thug is trying to bully me into disabling my email, which I will not do. But I expect Misplaced Pages to take some action to put an end to this harassment. RolandR (talk) 20:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to quickly mention in this thread that the very second you feel the foundation isn't doing enough to help, you should check to see if anyone has even told them about the problem yet. We don't see every thread, and it's easy for things like this to get missed. If we aren't taking any action, there's a good possibility we don't even know it's happening (because no one has informed us).--Ryan lane (talk) 21:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

This problem has been raised repeatedly over the past six months. This is the noticeboard for users to advise admins of problems; if you didn't know about the problem, then you should have done. And I never stated that "the foundation" is not taking this seriously; I said that Misplaced Pages (ie all of us collectively) was not. RolandR (talk) 21:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I very infrequently check my e-mail associated with this account, but just noticed I received some too, a few dozen messages titled "FREE ISRAEL AND END ISLAMIST APARTHEID!‏" from Cermugin on 12-4-11. The e-mail name was a slur and threat against RolandR, address was the same site mentioned above, mailinator.com. The WMF needs to step up and protect its editors from trolls using its e-mail capabilities to send anonymous harassment and death threats. Tarc (talk) 21:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

There has been a low priority bugzilla ticket (bugzilla:7518) open about this for 5+ years. It might be worth pinging it. 66.127.55.52 (talk) 07:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Rude etiquette, name calling, and swearing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No immediate administrator intervention is warranted. Take the matter to WP:RFC/U if further discussion is needed. This noticeboard isn't a good place for lengthy dispute resolution. Jehochman 13:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC). I have left the community interaction ban proposal open in a section below as that seems to have some hope of achieving a consensus. Jehochman 14:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

User Orangemarlin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has recently entered into the discussion pages in Evolution as fact and theory. This user is swearing, accusing other editors of being "creationists" POV pushers, and being disruptive instead of contributing to the discussion. Several of the editors, including myself, have been working in the evolution pages and contributing without incident. I posted a kind letter to the user and it was deleted with the following comment: "Etiquette in Evolution as fact and theory: Stay the fuck off my page." see here: . This is the kind of behaviour that has also been exhibited in the discussion pages: "See WP:FUCK. So I can use whatever fucking language I want to fucking use at any fucking point in fucking time." and "Why the creationist POV-pushing here?" - while no user is pushing any such view. Some editors have made genuine contributions that can be backed up with WP:V and have made legitimate posts. However, OrangeMarlin is resorting to other kinds of attacks: "Creationists POV pushing attempt to use the English language to conflate real science with their false "beliefs". Period. And Clavicle...spare me your personal attacks. I have NEVER fucking accused you of being a Creationist or a POV pusher. However, your and Thompsma changes may unintentionally assist the creationist POV.". The reality is that Thompsma and I have made lots of contributions to other science articles. This user has come in as a bully and is using foul language instead of contributing in good faith. I've asked the user to cooperate and to get along, but this is not working. Hoping to find someone's assistance. Thank you. I will now notify the user that this is being discussed here.Claviclehorn (talk) 23:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The user has been notified, but deleted the notification from their talk page here . Stating: "(→Administrator's notice: Like I've ever fucking cared about AN/I's)"Claviclehorn (talk) 00:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I am involved. I can understand that the bad words are upsetting, and they should not be used. However, this report is premature and misguided. First, things like this should be discussed at WP:WQA—there is no incident which requires admin intervention yet. Second, if there were some actual engagement with the comments at Talk:Evolution as fact and theory there would be less need for loaded language. While some are offended by the bad language, others (myself at least) are offended by the pointless discussion. Primer for anyone interested: the article concerns scientific responses to the creationist dismissal of evolution: it's only a theory. A large amount of discussion has arisen around a poorly defined proposal to remove one of the standard arguments (i.e. gravity is only a theory). Johnuniq (talk) 00:16, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm an editor who believes such language in inappropriate in a professional environment, even if - and perhaps particularly if - it's virtual. However, the editor has a long history of using the word fuck, admitting he is cranky, and I think enjoying the hell out of himself for being blunt.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The foul mouth is not needed and just plain ignorant and rude. Oh well. --68.9.119.69 (talk) 00:27, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Claviclehorn has only made substantial contributions to Evolution and Evolution as fact and theory.

Thompsma has edited a wide range of articles on biology, but since July 2011 the majority of his edits are related to Evolution and Evolution as fact and theory.

Orangemarlin is.... a bit forceful when it comes to defending the represention of science from the mainstream point of view. He should learn to tone down his language.

This is probably related to a disputed merge. Uninvolved commenters are needed at Talk:Evolutionary_biology#Shouldn.27t_be_merged_with_.27evolution.27.

Someone familiar with the topic area should look at Talk:Evolution and Talk:Evolution as fact and theory and discern if there is creationist POV-pushing going on or not. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:33, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I am an editor and involved. I am finding the posts by OrangeMarlin disruptive, rude, and inappropriate. The proposal to change gravity is only a theory is not poorly defined, it has been written with extensive citations by myself. This is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and can be reserved for the talk pages. OrangeMarlin is being disruptive to that discussion and accusing others of being creationist POV pushers when this is far from the truth. Editors, such as myself, are working in earnest and trying to make an honest attempt to raise a legitimate point. I have made many contributions to the article, including a significant amount of work on the lead - and the body of the article. Things were going well, until OrangeMarlin jumped in. I am flexible with other editors and generally get along. I would prefer to get along with this user, but I think OrangeMarlin is not willing to move in this direction and has instead resorted to being foul mouthed and wasting the time of editors who would like to discuss the actual topic.Thompsma (talk) 00:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Good thing I'm not evolved enough to be familiar with the topic area. I don't suppose WP:INVOLVED and WP:EVOLVED mean the same thing, do they?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I've read (quickly) the discussion at Evolution as fact and theory, and, frankly, I find OM's comments to be productive. His language could be toned down, but he makes valid constructive points. Even if I didn't think that, I agree with Johnuniq - there's no basis for administrative action - this topic should be closed.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:52, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not exactly a fan of Orangemarlin and have gone on record saying very bad things about him. But here I am absolutely shocked to see him arguing reasonably and constructively against what does appear to be creationist POV pushing. Not calmly, but he is calmer than I would be in that discussion. Hans Adler 01:06, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and maybe someone can tell Georgewilliamherbert to stay the fuck off that page, in words that he understands? His trademark method of escalating disputes by painting everything as a pure matter of superficial civility is the last thing that is needed there right now. Hans Adler 01:10, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the vote of confidence there, Hans, but I did not paint anything as a superficial civility issue. My point was - and was apparently taken by the participants there - that grossly UNcivil discussions on actual content or behavioral issues degenerate and don't solve the underlying problem, in addition to being unpleasant to be around. Nowhere did I dispute that there was an underlying legitimate set of issues to have a serious talk about, and hopefully all involved there are on track to do so. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 08:51, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I am new to that article's discussion. While OrangeMarlin does use language I wouldn't use myself (well, not here, anyway), I can understand his frustration. Thompsma, while claiming to not support the creationist view in any way at all, wants to remove one of the of the most effective retorts to those ignorant creationists who say "...but evolution is only a theory". He presented what he claimed was an alternative proposal, but which was really a bunch of unclear reasons why he thought change was needed, then got cross with me when I kept asking exactly what his proposal was. I really don't think he had one. He just didn't like that section of the article. Maybe what Thompsma is doing is done in good faith, but his efforts are not very helpful, and seem to largely comprise "I and my nice friends have been quietly playing here for a long time. Don't bring strong thoughts into our lives." He cannot express his position very well, which may be just a lack of skill, or he could be hiding something about his true motivations. But all very frustrating. HiLo48 (talk) 01:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

A glance at Talk:Evolution_as_fact_and_theory shows "discussion" that would try the patience of a saint. And Orangemarlin is no saint (he likely would protest against accusations that he is one). The article needs input from a wider audience to offset the not necessarily helpful approach of certain individuals now participating there. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I have not in any way forwarded a creationist POV. I am a scientist and I have contributed greatly to that article. Let's make that clear. "Thompsma, while claiming to not support the creationist view in any way at all, wants to remove one of the of the most effective retorts to those ignorant creationists who say "...but evolution is only a theory" - this is also false. I have suggested integrating the material and getting rid of the section heading. I've suggested an alternative - a section on belief that more broadly covers other literature. This is the problem. OM has created a distraction and others are misinterpreting the text I post. For a creationist I have made quite a few significant contributions to the main evolution article. I've also wrote a significant portion of the evolution as fact and theory article. For someone who hasn't helped, if we were to remove the work I contributed - the article would not be very far along. People must be free to make honest contributions without being accused as a means to bully or obstruct legitimate contributions.Thompsma (talk) 02:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I shall make my point even more strongly. The gravity comparison is THE most effective retort to those ignorant creationists who say "...but evolution is only a theory". It should not be buried in the article without its own section heading. You may well be a scientist, but you haven't made your reasons clear. THAT'S the real problem here. HiLo48 (talk) 03:39, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I’m uninvolved here, but I’ve been aware for a little while of OrangeMarlin having a persistent problem with incivility across a broad range of articles, and I think it’s overdue for administrators to take a closer look at his behavior in general. Here are four recent diffs of some of his incivility outside of this topic area:

• “Jclemens is full of shit”, subsequently changed to “Jclemens has something up his ass”.

• “Jclemens is absolute douche. Probably a little pussy that would hide in his mommy's basement. Wouldn't have the balls to talk to me like a man. GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU TINY LITTLE MAN JCLEMENS.”

• “So, Jclemens, the pathetic little pussy who probably thinks being a janitor is a step up in life, gets to cast lies against me and get away with it? Then I can't even tell him he's a fucking asshole?”

• This one’s too long to quote, but it’s directed at both me and Jclemens, and has the phrase “Go fuck yourself” four times in one paragraph.

Jclemens is a member of ArbCom, and OrangeMarlin’s grudge against him appears to be because Jclemens suggested that OrangeMarlin be sanctioned for incivility during the abortion arbitration case. The proposal didn’t pass because OM was unable to participate in the case due to illness, but it probably would have passed if not for that.

I’m kind of amazed that OM has been able to get away with this sort of thing for as long as he has. I’ve seen editors get indef-blocked for less than this, and that was when comments like these were being directed at an ordinary editor, not a member of ArbCom. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

In that very unique context, Orangemarlin's language was perfectly defensible. In OM's situation I would have preferred stronger words to describe the behaviour of Captain Occam and Jclemens, such as "grandmother-selling pea gamecock" for the latter. The two of you should just be happy that OM prefers the more generic, more common and less stinging scatological and sexual insults, and leave it at that before we get an ANI thread on this precise incident, examining all participants in it. Hans Adler 10:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

If you’re thinking of posting such a thread yourself and you think it should be separate from this one, I think you should go ahead. I consider OrangeMarlin to be something of a test case. If you’ve been following the ArbCom election this month, you’ll be aware that one of the questions is about the concept of vested contributors. “The vested contributor is someone who believes they are entitled to a degree of indulgence or bending of the rules because of the duration and extent of their past contributions. In some cases, this view may be shared by other community members.” OrangeMarlin is one of the most obvious examples of this I’ve seen, and the question is whether the WP:CIVIL will ultimately prove unenforceable in his case because of the number of other community members who think he’s entitled to ignore this policy. Since this is apparently an issue that ArbCom is particularly paying attention to now, I expect that how the community handles WP:CIVIL in OrangeMarlin’s case will influence ArbCom’s future decisions in this area. --Captain Occam (talk) 11:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Orangemarlin is also a test case for whether we really want to treat superficial incivility as worse than much more efficient polite bullying, Arbcom cangaroo courts, practical demonstrations that one doesn't give a shit for other editors' continued physical existence, and IDHT crusades. Hans Adler 11:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
It just occurred to me that not everybody reading this will be familiar with the background. I am not claiming that Arbcom is typically a cangaroo court, but years ago there was a spectacularly bad case of arbitrator misbehaviour, and recently we had a pretty bad one. Both directed at Orangemarlin, who I am not a friend of. Hans Adler 21:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Great, now it's marlin fishing season. Anyone following the situation knows there was a particularly good reason for Orangemarlin's outburst, and since everyone's aim should be to improve the encyclopedia, there would be no benefit from discussing that background. Please wait for another outburst and start a new section at a suitable noticeboard if warranted. It's a little unusual because Orangemarlin has definitely breached CIVIL, but would someone familiar with recent activity please close this section as unproductive. Johnuniq (talk) 04:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I've got enough experience with AN/I to know that what you're expecting here goes against how this noticeboard is normally used. If admin intervenation is warranted based on OM's incivility, then whatever action is taken will be based all of the recent history involving this user; not just what was mentioned in the original post. Therefore, there's absolutely no reason why these issues can't all be discussed in the same thread. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:28, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

There's often more than one side to these issues. OM was provoked. OM (over)reacted. But does the provoker not deserve censure? HiLo48 (talk) 04:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I really don't see how any of what Jclemens did can be considered provocation. Jclemens suggested that OM be sanctioned for his incivility in abortion-related discussions, particularly this comment and this one. And he also expressed the opinion that these personal attacks were indefensible enough that whether or not he could participate in the case shouldn’t affect ArbCom’s response. For an arbitrator to suggest sanctions for an involved party in a case is a standard part of what happens during arbitration. If we consider that “provocation” now, how many other times would we have to overlook editors bashing the arbitrators who suggested that they be sanctioned? --Captain Occam (talk) 04:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not speaking about provocation in the alleged priors now being dredged up. I detest that aspect of these "enquiries". Someone reports someone for a recent sin, and others jump on the bandwagon and complain about earlier sins, with declarations of "I don't like him either!. It becomes a personal_attack_fest. Anyway, my comment about provocation referred to the incident(s) discussed at the start of this thread. HiLo48 (talk) 04:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

As someone who has interacted with OrangeMarlin, Thompsma, and Claviclehorn, I just want to say that all three editors are without exception, diligent and earnest in their attempts in wanting to improve and protect the integrity of Misplaced Pages science articles. That said, the assertion that there is "Creationist POV pushing" is baseless and a red herring. The issue was mainly about reorganization. The current rift between Thompsma/Claviclehorn on one end and OrangeMarlin on the other, results from the lack of familiarity by the former of the latter's use of very colorful language, which I admit, can be a little unnerving to those who are not use to it. danielkueh (talk) 05:03, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the problem also stems from the inability of those seeking change (Thompsma and Claviclehorn) to present a clear, rational, coherent case. I'm not saying one doesn't exist. Like OM, I haven't seen it yet. And it's not a matter of reading the case and disagreeing with it. It's a matter of reading the "case" and saying "What?" It was not well presented. I'd offer to help but, as I said, I don't understand it. HiLo48 (talk) 05:17, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• Per Johnuniq above: I guess I'm too involved to do any threadclosing, unfortunately, and too disgusted by Captain Occam's unsavoury vendetta against OM. If recent history is indeed relevant, everybody should get a load of this whole thread, where they can take stock of the discreditable roles played by Captain Occam and JClemens. Note input from other arbitrators, and complete lack of support on the committee for JClemens proposals in the matter. Bishonen | talk 05:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC).

When you refer to my "vendetta against OM", are you implying that you think I'd been involved in an earlier dispute with him? I haven't, and I challenge you to find anywhere that I have. I had literally no history with him before Jclemens asked me to help identify the editors who had been most uncivil on the abortion talk page, and OrangeMarlin stood out as the worst of the bunch. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I wasn't implying that. It would be quite a trick to "dispute" with somebody off having major surgery. I challenge you to stop compulsively replying to everything on this thread. Please just give people a chance to read the thread I linked to and make up their own minds about your role on it. The questions you've been asking on JClemens's talkpage are relevant to the "vendetta" issue, too. Bishonen | talk 05:44, 10 December 2011 (UTC).

I would like to clarify one point: I did not intend my words above to express any opinion about the merits of the Orangemarlin vs. Jclemens issue: I'm not endorsing the incivility—just letting anyone interested know that there were some very unusual circumstances behind the comments, and there is no point rehashing that matter. Johnuniq (talk) 05:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I would also like to call attention to the ongoing problems with User:DMSBel on OM's talk page. For those unfamiliar, DMSBel was one of the editors sanctioned in the recent Abortion case. It is clear that DMSBel has not withdrawn from the WP:BATTLE but has merely shifted the fight to another front. (I haven't checked meticulously, but he may be at 3RR on OM's talk page.) I am increasingly of the opinion that a vacation from Misplaced Pages would do DMSBel considerable benefit, and that an admin should step in to help bring this about. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:30, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I need a vacation? Perhaps I do. Who can take the kind of antics that go on around OM and is bunch of admirers for long period without a break. I'll be the one to decide though when I have had enough thanks, thanks for your consideration. So cut the bull about me needing a vacation, only I know when I need that. Also you talk about me in a thread about another editor and don't even have the decency to notify me, even though it says to do this in a way that you could hardly miss. Try turning the thread round if you like, but let me know if you want to make a pretence of being civil, so I can answer. Were you trying to get me banned without me even knowing it was under discussion? A Fait Accompli? To bad I spotted it then. If OM or anyone else has a problem, let them talk to me on my talk page, and not make snide comments with their friends behind my back. Manly? Not in the least.DMSBel (talk) 08:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Johnuniq - my track record speaks for itself. I have been a civil editor in here since 2008. I have contributed tirelessly to articles on science. Ecology in particular is one article where I have labored and wrote most of it from top to bottom - a subject with close relations to evolution. The point is that I have contributed tonnes of material in science articles, including the main evolution article. I recently made some major contributions to Evolution as fact and theory - rewrote the lead and made significant contributions to the body of the text and was given praise for this work. Suddenly, somehow, Claviclehorn and I make some suggestions that OM doesn't like and we are being bashed for creationist POV pushing!! It is absurd. The proposal may not have been worded at its best at the onset, but the proposal is taking form as others are discussing it with the genuine intent to understand and help. Other editors, not just Claviclehorn and I have also felt that a change in the gravity section would improve the article. Certainly the points we raise did not merit the response by OM. My issue with OM is the foul language, threats, and accusations that are used to discredit editors that are working diligently to improve the article. It is harassment. I can ignore the fowl language, but the juvenile comments and threats to delete whatever I put because I'm being called a creationist POV pusher is too much. My history of contributions in here, as Danielkueh has noted, have been positive. There is nothing untoward going on here with the changes I want to make to the article - my goal is to improve on the topic, because I am interested in evolution and I have published peer-reviewed papers on the topic of evolution. I'm not making a plea to my credentials, the point is that this has turned into a witch hunt by OM for anyone who changes the article in a way that looks suspcious. The accusations of creationist POV pushing is false and offensive. I have no personal vendetta and would like to get along. However, I agree with Claviclehorn that the posts by OM are problematic and disruptive.Thompsma (talk) 06:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

What you're missing is that Orangemarlin is an intelligent person and it would only take a couple of comments that engage the issues raised on the talk page to avoid the whole mess. Yes, your qualifications and work are excellent, but you have a pompous and verbose style that make it hard for someone dropping in to the page to work out where you are coming from. Sorry for the plain talk, but sometimes less is more. One thing that many evolution editors will not be aware of is that there is a continual back-and-forth about civility on the wikidrama boards. I strongly support WP:CIVIL, but dealing with bad language is easy—a far bigger danger to Misplaced Pages are the WP:CPUSH users who drive good editors crazy with dumb persistence (that's not relevant to the issue at hand—I'm just trying to explain why the plainly uncivil language is not exciting a lot of attention here: it's because experienced editors know that issues are often more complex than counting rude words). Johnuniq (talk) 07:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it’s important to keep in mind that incivility and POV-pushing are mostly separate issues, and the presence of one doesn’t excuse the other. Civility is one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, and editors are required to abide by WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA regardless of whether there’s POV-pushing going on or not. As Panyd has mentioned in her Arbitration Candidacy, incivility also has at least as much potential to drive away new contributors as POV-pushing does.

If there’s both incivility and POV-pushing going on, ideally this thread ought to address both issues. That’s what the outcome will most likely be if this dispute ends up in arbitration, and ending up in arbitration seems to be a fairly common eventual outcome for disputes like these. But it would save everyone a lot of trouble if the community could resolve this without needing ArbCom’s help. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

"I think it’s important to keep in mind that incivility and POV-pushing are mostly separate issues" This may be true in general, but it certainly isn't true in many particular situations. The classic case is civil POV pushing, where disruptive civility is often used as a fulcrum to frustrate reasonable editors. When faced with civil POV-pushers, some users tend to become angry as a result of the seemingly never-ending problems these articles cause, become uncivil (quoted from WP:CPUSH). That you've continued your crusade against incivility after being sanctioned for your own civil POV pushing only illustrates just how problematic this broad issue has become. aprock (talk) 22:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I’ve reminded you about this multiple times before, but I may as well remind you again: if you look at the finding of fact about me that you’re referring to, you’ll see that I haven’t been sanctioned for POV pushing. I was sanctioned (in August 2010) for edit warring and false claims of consensus, and my finding of fact doesn’t mention POV pushing at all. For you to bring this up isn’t just a red herring; it’s also false.

In any case, I never claimed that POV pushing isn’t a problem, if that’s happening here. What I said in the comment above is that we need to deal with both. Dealing with both is what happened in the case that you brought up: I was sanctioned for edit warring, David.Kane was sanctioned for POV pushing, and Mathsci was sanctioned for incivility. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:33, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

From the WP:ARBR&I findings of fact: " has gamed the system by claiming consensus for article versions which support his point of view." . aprock (talk) 03:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that’s exactly what I said in my comment that you’re replying to. “I was sanctioned (in August 2010) for edit warring and false claims of consensus, and my finding of fact doesn’t mention POV pushing at all.” Are you disagreeing with me? All you’re doing is quoting the finding of fact that I summarized above. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:54, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I've encountered both OrangeMarlin and Thompsma in my edits to Misplaced Pages. Both are diligent and energetic editors. I knew Thompsma was not a creationist POV pusher immediately but his failure to use quotes around one of OM's comments to indicate he was quoting OM set off OM's signature temper. OM has violated WP:CIVIL but I believe his real violation was in WP:FAITH but that is understandable given the subject. There are non-stop incursions by creationists to undermine the evolution and periphery articles. In my dealings with Thompsma he was a verbose debater but I have come to accept that from professors and adjust to it. OM was out of line in this debate by going straight to suggestion of nuclear options with his 'revert button'. Thompsma needed to just rewrite the section and put it up for all to review instead of spending 1000's of words just talking about a potential change. Alatari (talk) 21:30, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm staying out of it. HOWEVER, (Redacted)

Since this has gotten off topic. GWH bitched at everyone and it's quieted down. The creationists have shut up. I'm good with that. OrangeMarlin 23:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Anyone care to explain how this has not been actioned in a similar way to this comparatively polite edit summary where the user received a block? Leaky Caldron 23:39, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Leaky...have you spent a nanosecond looking up the diffs? First of all, the point about the article was settled. Everyone got their point across. The creationists decided that had to get consensus. Everyone else calmed down. Then Captain (Redacted) or Occum or whatever decided to put his $0.02 in here. Now, I would have ignored it, except he made the most outrageous, heinous, vile, unacceptably rude accusation, along with Jclemens, Arbcom (Redacted), against me. Without any retribution from said Arbcom. Without anything period. (Redacted). PERIOD Case fucking closed. His sociopathic behavior is reprehensible. So that is what prompted my remarks. Badger Drink was not wronged. He just went batshit. I went batshit because of the lies against my person by Captain Occam. Different story, different place e. OrangeMarlin 23:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

(ec)One explanation is the community has not had time to evaluate the situation -- the block you reference occurred about 3 hours after the corresponding edit. OM's edit has not been "live" very long. So I'm calling out your question as premature and pointy. However, I do understand the deeper question and have previously addressed it here Gerardw (talk) 23:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Orange Marlin, the language in your statment above is utterly unacceptable. I would suggest you redact it, now, before you are blocked for egrerious civility violations and personal attacks. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:59, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

A new language low for ANI (based on my limited experience). You should have carried through on your threat.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)An entirely unconvincing response. The community in the case I referred to had almost reached a mediated resolution. Then a drive by admin., likening himself to a traffic cop saw and immediately blocked the editor concerned. Where is the consistency? By the way, Orange has just repeated the abuse above. What you going to do, redact that as well before anyone else can read it? Leaky Caldron 00:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Bushranger threatened to block OM. No block has taken place. --GraemeL 00:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Captain Occam's claim of uninvolvement is not true and has not helped content discussion in the first instance, and moved discussion from a prospective to a retrospective focus. Just because someone loses their temper does not mean we sweep over the antecedents. Most of us are grownups here. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

(Response to GraemeL) - it looks like Leaky was referring to the Block of Badger Drink, not to the warning given by Bushranger to Orange.Nigel Ish (talk) 00:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Where have I ever interacted with OrangeMarlin outside of the abortion case, where my involvement was solicited by Jclemens? If I've ever been in a prior conflict with him on any article or noticeboard, I have absolutely no memory of it. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

So that I don't offend Bushranger's sensibilities, I will make this clear. I don't care CO where you did or did not interact with me. I have no clue who you are, but I know that you sit behind your veil of anonymity and cast aspersions against another editor's good name. You stated that I manipulated an Arbcom hearing, one that really didn't matter to me, since I was only peripherally involved, by lying that I was deathly ill. In fact, I was deathly ill for six months, give or take a few days. You got away with that without a single admonishment, save for one or two comments, because Jclemens, an Arbcom member, said the same thing, and we know that Arbcom is protected from any criticism whatsoever. You made up a story with no facts whatsoever. And that is not fair. And that you come here, to something that is none of your business, and get on my case when you made such a horrifying accusation against me is beyond belief. It is simply one of the most offensive acts I've seen on here, and I've seen a lot. Your accusation was a lie, pure and simple. I'm willing to prove that it was. Then what? Will you be blocked? I doubt it. OrangeMarlin 00:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Here's the use of a tool that you showed me Captain Occam: User Intersecting contributions Alatari (talk) 00:34, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You need to understand something about how the tool I linked you to works. A page will be listed there even if OM and I edited it months or years apart. (And in fact, some of the pages listed there are pages I only ever edited once or twice.) I mean, do you really think it means something that OM and I have both posted at some point on the 3RR noticeboard, on requests for page protection, or in Jimbo Wales' user talk? You could enter any two reasonably experienced editors into this tool and get a similar result.

This tool is meant to be a method to search for diffs. In order for the results of the tool to be meaningful, you need to find diffs of OrangeMarlin and myself actually interacting, not just that he edited a page once this year and I edited it once in 2009. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

What Captain Occam says here is absolutely correct. I don't know if Alatari's post was meant that way, but it can be understood as saying that there were further interactions between the two, of which I can see no evidence. Hans Adler 01:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand the tool is spatial and not temporal. It was up to your own Recognition memory to place when you two could have interacted otherwise. It seems OM remembered that you two had. The tool was not meant to be a 'smoking gun'. I don't know the history between you two but I hope that even if you two never like each other you can agree to ignore each other and perhaps at some later time be able to work together. Alatari (talk) 04:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

There really isn’t any history here. My issue with OrangeMarlin isn’t a personal one; it’s just a matter of what he represents. If what the community ends up deciding about him is that his personal attacks should be overlooked because of how many useful content edits he’s made, what that’ll mean to me is that WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA become unenforceable once a person has a certain amount of experience and a certain number of friends. There is nothing that bothers me more about Misplaced Pages than the way editors are held to inconsistent standards of civility based on how long they’ve been around, and OM is the worst example of this I’ve ever seen. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

My issue with OrangeMarlin isn’t a personal one; it’s just a matter of what he represents. - that's probably more telling than was intended. Anyway, these "this-person-who-has-contributed-a-buttload-to-Misplaced Pages-is-being-uncivil-to-my-POV-pushing,-or-my-fellow-ideological-brethren's-POV-pushings" and therefore "people-who-have-contributed-a-buttload-to-Misplaced Pages-should-not-use-that-fact-as-an-excuse-for-getting-irate-when-dealing-with-blatant-cases-of-WP:Civil POV pushing-gaming" kind of arguments would be helluva lot more credible if they originated from people who had actually done some contribution/content work themselves, rather than... you know. Volunteer Marek  05:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it’s disappointing, but not really surprising, how much this thread has become focused on whatever ignorant claims other editors want to make about me, which I can either ignore (and thereby invite others to believe them) or respond to (and thereby invite more of them). We’ve had two thus far: the claim that I have a history of conflict with OM, and the claim that I accused him of faking his illness. And now in a backhanded manner, you’re making two more:

1: That creationists are “my fellow ideological bretheren.” Have you realized where the name “Captain Occam” comes from? If you had, you would be aware that calling creationists “my fellow ideological bretheren” is about as far from the truth as it’s possible for anything to be.

2: That I’m not someone who’s “done some contribution/content work themselves”. Do you suppose it was someone else logged into my account who wrote the articles William Beebe, Bathysphere, or… do I need to keep going, or are you willing to admit that you know basically nothing about me?

That’s two more spurious claims about me I’ve had to respond to, in a thread that was originally intended to be about OrangeMarlin’s personal attacks. Are there going to be any more of these, or can we get back to the topic that this thread was intended to be about? --Captain Occam (talk) 05:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Captain Occam, so you are trying to argue that this wasn't enough, in the light of this and this? Maybe you will get some hyperactive idiot of an admin to block Orangemarlin without looking at the background, but then this will go to Arbcom, and you will be toast. And your buddy Jclemens, who doesn't seem to care about the number of bodies he has to trample over while playing to the galley in his pursuit of another year in Arbcom, will sit beside you on the defendant's bench. Hans Adler 00:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

What is the significance of the links that you posted? One is just OrangeMarlin's contributions, and the other is an old version of his user talk that doesn't contain any posts from me. As far as actual diffs are concerned, is this the only evidence you can find that I've interacted with OM outside of abortion case?

If you think this should go to ArbCom, please just request a case. At this stage, I think there's a very good chance the community isn't capable of dealing with this at AN/I, and I would appreciate ArbCom's involvement. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The last two links that I posted show that there is extremely strong prima facie evidence that in early July Orangemarlin was undergoing an experimental heart surgery procedure and was by no means sure that he would return, that in early September the notification of an Arbcom case in which he was involved reached him while in intensive care, and that he did not resume editing before 26 November. The first link speaks for itself in this context. I can understand the technical point that you were trying to make, but I cannot tell you how strongly I disapprove of your having made it in this form.

The decision regarding Orangemarlin was: "Because Orangemarlin has been unable to participate in this arbitration, including answering findings of fact about his editing in the topic-area of Abortion, potential remedies are suspended until he returns to editing. He is instructed to contact the Arbitration Committee upon his return and before participating in the topic area." This was perfectly clear and sufficient, and there was no need whatsoever to try to bully Arbcom into making a topic ban against someone who is recovering from heart surgery more explicit. Hans Adler 01:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You need to understand something: at no point have I ever claimed that OrangeMarlin lied about his illness. The only thing I claimed was that after he had recovered from the surgery, I suspected he might have additionally delayed his return until he could be sure that ArbCom wasn’t going to sanction him because of his absence. All of the places OrangeMarlin accused me of claiming that he had been lying… I never actually said that about him, and if you closely read the thread that you linked to, you’ll see that I didn’t.

It's not a crime to want to stay away from Misplaced Pages for a while especially if it angers and stresses you. It's volunteer work after all. Alatari (talk) 05:07, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Just like the accusation that I have a history of conflict with OrangeMarlin, this assertion that I accused him of lying about his illness is an example of a rumor that keeps being repeated despite having no factual basis, and it seems that there’s nothing I can do or say to make people stop repeating it. The justification that's being given for why OM's personal attacks against me are acceptable is something that I never actually did. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

If you believed him, your behaviour was even worse. So Orangemarlin is assuming that you thought he was lying. So what? Do you want to hold it against him that he is assuming good faith? That he thought that you were not intentionally trying to stress an editor who was recovering from heart surgery, but were for some reason convinced that he was dissembling and just didn't want to admit it? Ethically challenged ten-year olds (or impersonators of such) such as you are a much bigger threat to editor retention than swearing. And yes, the swearing is also a problem. We can address it once some of the major causes have been eliminated. Hans Adler 02:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin isn’t making an assumption about what I thought, OrangeMarlin is making an assertion about what I said. He said, “You stated that I manipulated an Arbcom hearing… by lying that I was deathly ill.” OrangeMarlin’s claim about me is false; I never said that. OrangeMarlin said the same thing in your user talk: “he called me a liar”. I’d never called him that, although I suppose he’s one now for claiming I said something that I never did. You might be able to frame this as an AGF issue if OM’s comments really were about my motives, but that simply isn’t the case. OM is defending his personal attacks by making factual statements about what I’ve said, and those factual statements are false.

I think you’re the person who’s having an issue with assuming good faith here, by assuming that I was deliberately trying to stress an editor who was recovering from surgery. (Incidentally, at the time I didn’t know the details of his illness; all I knew was that he had been in the hospital.) Isn’t there a simpler explanation for how I felt about this? OM evidently wasn’t in the hospital yet when he left this comment, and my perspective is simply that these sorts of personal attacks are inexcusable regardless of what unfortunate events occurred to him in during time after he made them. You aren’t providing an explanation for what’s wrong with this perspective. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Once more we see the triumph of WP:CPUSH over good editors. What benefit may arise from continuing this? Winning a battle? Crushing an opponent? Johnuniq (talk) 03:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Why can’t we sanction both the personal attacks and the POV-pushing? That’s what I’ve suggested a few times in this thread. It doesn’t seem reasonable to say that since POV-pushing an incivility are both problems, we therefore shouldn’t do anything about either of them. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Checking some recent edits, OrangeMarlin does seem to have a bit of a potty mouth, eh? Without commenting on the accuracy of OrangeMarlin's statements, a wee bit of restraint qua form would be nice. If you absolutely must call people names, at least be creative about it. (Adding "fuck" every few words does tend to get a tad stale after a while) --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC) incorrigible editor, please do not incorrige

The Evolution article has been on my watchlistfor a while. My view is that a handful of editors are spending too long trying to push the article in their favoured direction (cf their wish to have no separate article on Evolutionary biology). Only when outside editors came in (eg Dave souza) could the History section of Evolution be written properly for a general readership: that was largely because the subject is the province of historians of science, not biologists. The discussions on Evolution and "Evolution as fact and theory" do show vague signs of WP:OWNERSHIP. The civility issues seem far less important in comparison. Mathsci (talk) 02:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not an admin, and I respect Hans Adler, but the comment that action shouldn't be taken against OrangeMarlin is ludicrous. People have been indef blocked for less than what OrangeMarlin said above. I've honestly never seen a clearer breach of the five pillars. Regardless of whether OrangeMarlin is right or not, he clearly needs to get out of this discussion and stop throwing words like "fucktard" and "sociopathic" around Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 03:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  Agree with Purplebackpack89. Regardless of OrangeMarlin's choice of words, the personal attacks he made about other users on this page should not go without some kind of action. Kcowolf (talk) 05:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  The action that should be taken is to close this section. The circumstances behind the nonsense are such that only bitter feuding involving many good editors would arise from a drive-by admin giving a bureaucractic response to incivility. If there is a problem, it will recur and can be dealt with then. However, kicking someone under the current circumstances would be very counter productive for the community. Johnuniq (talk) 06:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a problem here now, it should be addressed. This concept that the Community shouldn't address "surface incivility" because it doesn't have adequate techniques to deal with insidious incivility makes as much sense as a police force saying "I'm sorry you were assaulted and robbed. But even though we have video footage of the crime, we're not going to do anything because we have an unsolved murder from last February." Gerardw (talk) 09:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Agreed. This has degenerated into a continuation of the mess that occurred on Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Proposed decision. Mathsci (talk) 07:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The eventual decision whether or not to sanction OrangeMarlin needs to be made by people who are completely uninvolved in this issue. That means not you, not me, not Johnuniq, and not any of the other people who’ve been involved in other disputes involving OM. That’s how noticeboards are meant to operate: as a place to get input from the rest of the community. Let’s leave this part of the discussion for uninvolved people to offer their opinions. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, I am not involved in any way. On the other hand you are involved to a very serious extent, as it seems you were one of the two people who gathered evidence against Orangemarlin while he was seriously ill and have militated for sanctions against him ever since. Mathsci (talk) 08:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

…And both during the abortion case and in Jclemens’ arbitration candidady, you showed up to object to that. I can find earlier disputes where you and OM both argued for the same position, but your objections to my involvement in the abortion case alone ought to be enough to show that you have a personal stake in this dispute.

Of course, even just the fact that you’re challenging me about this forces this to become yet another discussion where our own comments crowd out the uninvolved editors who ought to be deciding the outcome of this thread. I’m going to create a new section that’s just for comments from uninvolved editors. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You just attempted to move around various comments. Please stop doing this as it is disruptive. Thank you, Mathsci (talk) 09:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing unusual about this. Having discussion among uninvolved editors in its own section is completely commonplace in threads like this, and I don't believe you're not aware of that. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It's disrespectful to the community, please stop. Gerardw (talk) 09:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It is WP:UNCIVIL. Please stop. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Gerardw: If others don’t approve of that particular solution, I won’t attempt it again. But does anyone else care about the underlying issue I mentioned? I think the comments from involved editors, and these circular disputes, are drowning out any input from the uninvolved people who ought to be resolving this thread.

I’ve probably made this worse, but I’m not sure how at lot of my comments here (such as in response to multiple sequential accusations of misconduct) could have been avoided. If we want this thread to ever be resolved, we’ll need to find a way to make it possible for the closing admin to review the viewpoints expressed by uninvolved editors without having to pick them one at a time out of tens of KBs worth of text. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I have made no comments about Orangemarlin at all on-wiki; Captain Occam's diffs above are comments about the administrator MastCell. Perhaps Captain Occam has his wires crossed. Mathsci (talk) 12:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

In this discussion, you and OrangeMarlin discussed corresponding with one another via e-mail. Even if you think your statement “I have made no comments about Orangemarlin at all on-wiki” doesn’t include e-mail correspondence, I don’t see how you can possibly claim that you’re uninvolved in issues related to a user you correspond with via e-mail. And in any case, your statement is false in a literal sense as well: you commented on OrangeMarlin here, only around two weeks ago. Another example of your past interaction with OrangeMarlin is this thread.

All right? You’re wrong, and that should be the end of this. Can we stop wasting time with this now, or are you going to demand that I waste even more of it by finding additional examples of your and his interaction? --Captain Occam (talk) 13:28, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight. Captain Occam, a known POV pusher, in dragging thsi on and on in the hopes of getting an ideological opponent blocked. And Orangemarlin is falling for the bait and making uncivil comments about Captain Occam and DSMBel, who is prodding and baiting him in his talk page. Until Orangemarlin is pushed to make some really uncivil comment and gets blocked. Why don't we apply interaction bans here? --Enric Naval (talk) 12:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is possible to be more uncivil than this so a block for incivility seems a long way off as there are no admins. willing to suffer the storm of protest that such a ban would generate. Leaky Caldron 12:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

That's because factual accurate descriptions of the behaviour of editors are not violations of WP:CIVIL (OK, not exactly factual, and probably written while being very angry due to their prodding). Specially when the editors being described having prodding the describer in order to provoke an uncivil coment and get him a WP:CIVIL block. Now let's throw interaction bans to stop the baiting and prodding. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, another attempt to sidetrack this with more of the same unsupported nonsense that’s been discussed to death earlier in the same thread? It’s certainly interesting how much of this is coming from the same small group of editors who’ve tended to oppose me in every dispute I’ve ever been involved in. Honestly, given what your past interaction with me has been like, I don’t expect anything I say to change what you’ll be claiming about me here. But for the sake of the rest of the community, I probably have to repeat it anyway:

I’ve had no interaction with OrangeMarlin before the abortion case a month ago. We’ve never been involved in the same articles at the same time, and all of the positions he’s advocating (abortion, evolution) aren’t ones that I disagree with. If you knew anything about me or where my username comes from, you’d know that already. In a situation like this, for you to suggest an interaction ban looks like nothing but vendetta. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:28, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You made a thoroughly unethical attempt to turn an implicit topic ban of an editor (Orangemarlin) who is recovering from heart surgery into an explicit one. Amazingly, a spineless arbitrator encouraged you in this attempt (and made a personal attack against another arbitrator in the process). Just as amazingly, given this community's obsession with superficial incivility, you were not taken to task for this reckless behaviour. Then someone started this thread on Orangemarlin, and just as a consensus began to develop that while his language is, as usual, too strong, there isn't really a problem here, you hijacked it for a general discussion of Orangemarlin's well known civility issues. I am sure I am speaking for a lot of editors when I say that this is by no means the right time. And you will have to live with WP:BOOMERANG. Hans Adler 13:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Look, there are only two possibilities here: either the community is capable of dealing with this, or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then this belongs in arbitration, and you (or someone else) should request a case. But if the community is capable of resolving this issue, there will have to come a point when the community decides that despite the complications involved, the issue needs to be addressed in its entirety.

I’ve been looking through some of the archives here, and OrangeMarlin has been periodically reported on AN/I for making personal attacks at least since 2008. It’s almost always gone the same way: because the issue is complex and it isn’t clear whether editors other than OM share some of the blame, the possibility of any action gets deferred to some indeterminate future point, and then the exact same issue ends up on AN/I again a few months later. The most recent example of this was here. Given this history, for you to say that now isn’t the right time to deal with this is basically just repeating the same attitude that’s caused this conflict to continue festering for the past three years. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:34, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The reason for the continued festering. This supposed to be the "incident" board -- if you want to do an RFC/U, this is not the forum. Gerardw (talk) 14:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

More and more, I think what’s needed at this stage is arbitration. In the discussion below, multiple people are expressing the opinion that this issue is too complex to be resolved at AN/I. Resolving conflicts that are too complex to be dealt with by the community is what ArbCom is there for.

Do you agree with that? If anyone else agrees that this issue belongs in arbitration, I’d appreciate it if someone else could request the case. I feel like I’ve gotten more involved in this than I ought to be, and I’ve also kind of got my hands full at the moment. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Modest proposal

As a bystander, let me make a suggestion. Proposed User:Orangemarlin is blocked indefinitely until such time as he accepts that his behaviour has been well beyond the limits of civility and agrees to conform to the letter and sprit of Misplaced Pages:Civility policy. Cusop Dingle (talk) 13:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. The extreme incivility in this very discussion is already enough to justify such a block, irrespective of any history of similar behaviour. Cusop Dingle (talk) 13:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. We don't block people mechanically but to achieve a result. Nothing good can come from blocking an habitual swearer for swearing in response to a deliberate attack to affect his physical health in real life. Hans Adler 13:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The proposal is not referencing the swearing but the personal attacks. Gerardw (talk) 14:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The proposal is intended to achieve a result: to give OM time and space to reflect on his own behaviour; to accept that community norms apply to him in the same way as everyone else, and to explicitly affirm that acceptance. Cusop Dingle (talk) 14:28, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. This issue is too complex and there are too many people involved to pin it on just the one protagonist and just block him - there's a wider picture that should be addressed -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I think this is a cop out, for the reasons I've outlined Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Simple_civility_principle below. Gerardw (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose/Support The comments have been redacted. If Orangemarlin, by not reverting, accepts the community consensus that personal attacks are not acceptable, a block is unnecessary now. If Orangemarlin insists on re-affirming the remarks in defiance of community standards a block would seem to the only remaining option. Gerardw (talk) 14:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Note that OrangeMarlin has already reverted the first attempt to redact his comments. Did you mean if he reverts this a second time? --Captain Occam (talk) 14:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

and it needs an Admin. willing to do it....... Leaky Caldron 14:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per BsZ, because situation is too complex and includes various ethical issues. Mathsci (talk) 14:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose We don't block good content writers when they have an outburst because of POV-pushers' baiting and prodding. This doesn't take into account any context, nor what is better for the encyclopedia. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Strongest possible oppose Orangemarlin's produced content work. I don't think that an editor should be blocked indefinitely for using "fuck" and calling an arbitrator a "tiny little man" to fuck himself offensive. HurricaneFan25 14:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

For clarification: I oppose any block of a content-creator or a net positive to the encyclopedia, uncivil or not. HurricaneFan25 15:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

"Indefinite" does not mean "infinite". It means until such time as OM explicitly agrees to abide by community norms. Cusop Dingle (talk) 15:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - in addition to all the reasons given above this smells of both a witch hunt as well as some agenda driven axe grinding. Volunteer Marek  15:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: in light of the fact that there isn't a consensus for an indef block, I counter-propose a two-week block instead (see "Even More Modest Proposal" below), as recent diffs indicate that his swearing continues Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 16:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose this is excessively draconian. Swarm 18:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too harsh, too little appreciation of good content work and good debating skill. Binksternet (talk) 18:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'd sooner block Captain Occam, or — since I'm not much of a one for blocks altogether — at least ban him from ANI for three months or so, for his unabashed attempts to game our good faith in this thread. He starts by introducing himself as "uninvolved" and merely "aware for a little while of OrangeMarlin having a persistent problem with incivility". Compare Casliber's brisk comment on this flying start: "Captain Occam's claim of uninvolvement is not true". Considering Captain Occam's very frank push for JClemens as extra respectable for being an arbitrator, I should perhaps remind people that Casliber is one, too. Then CO wikilawyers Orangemarlin's factually very accurate charges (that CO has accused him of being dishonest and manipulative) by responding on the approximate level of "I didn't actually say 'you lied about your illness'". (See this post for CO's actual words.) Oh, right, CO merely made his "suspicions" that OM is a crook very clear. And, gee, CO is certainly a fine one to complain about "unsupported nonsense that’s been discussed to death earlier in thread"! Comes well from the guy who has bloated up the thread by posting 40 times to it, much of it unsupported. Not counting minor edits. By posting 3 649 words to it, 25% of the total thread. (When CO made the remark about "discussed to death" it was a 30% percentage, which has since been evened out somewhat by people chiming in on all the "poll" threads.)

I won't try people's patience by posting Yet Another Poll, about ANI-banning CO. Also, I won't do that because I do give him credit for his unforced acknowledgement that "I’ve probably made this worse". (Even though he makes out that his excessive posting is really other people's fault for contradicting him so much. I guess that's human. :-)) Bishonen | talk 23:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC).

• Oppose While I would side with CO on content issues in general, and have on occasion cringed at various postings of OM's (in apprehension of the backlash rather than having my delicate nature offended); I would opine that civility is a two-way street. When taken out of context, indeed OM can be quite an eye-opener; and yet to suggest that a venue of passive aggressive baiting, snide asides, and heartless innuendo would pass for civility would be a massive fail. That an actual sitting arb would act in the fashion that he did amazes me. I was shocked and utterly disappointed that any human being shown enough trust that he be allowed to sit in judgment of others should behave in such a manner. I am completely flabbergasted that anyone seeking reappointment would behave with such a lack of compassion. It is true that this project is an endeavor to impart knowledge, but it is people that make this project work. When we put the "project" above our own humanity, we are ultimately dooming the project to failure. Taken in its entirety, and in context - I am unable to support such a sanction at this time. — Ched :  ?  04:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Simple civility principle

• 'Simple civility principle: 'Every editor, newbie, veteran, admin, bureaucrat, puppet, blocked banned, POV pushing, deceitful or otherwise dickish editor should be treated with respect.' Quoting what is supposed to be one of five fundamental principles: "Stated simply, editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. In order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment, editors should behave politely, calmly and reasonably, even during heated debates."

If "civility" only means having to be civil to those who are not dicks, it's not a principle, it's a banal description of the obvious.

The concepts that retaliatory incivility is acceptable, or that an editor can be "provoked" into incivility and therefore not culpable, is childish. Adult editors endowed with free will can make choices, and adults accept responsibility for their choices. They started it is not a justification.

The concept that the community shouldn't address "surface incivility" because it doesn't have adequate techniques to deal with insidious incivility makes as much sense as a police force saying "I'm sorry you were assaulted and robbed. But even though we have video footage of the crime, we're not going to do anything because we have a murder from last month we haven't been able to solve."

The concept upholding standards endorses so called "baiting" makes as much sense as saying prosecuting an individual who blows away a punk because they keyed their car is endorsing keying cars.

The parroting of "blocks are not punitive" is a shallow interpretation of the Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy. The legal jurisdiction where I reside posts highway signs that say 65 and maintains a police force which issues tickets at approximately ≥ 72 -- most folks drive at 70. It's not just about the specific editor; more importantly, both blocking and not blocking sends signals to the entire Misplaced Pages community about what is and what is not acceptable behavior. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Burke, attributed.

"Not punitive" implies others means of resolution are preferable; in the case of personal attacks, redaction or striking. "Not punitive" implies a generous reading of unblock requests, contrasted with "do the crime, serve the time" gestalt. An "editor X is such a dick they won't change, so a block would be punitive" reading is a ludicrous Wiki-22. Gerardw (talk) 14:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Play nice - or go play somewhere else. Its OK to loose one's temper if you apologize put the issue behind you afterwards. It is not OK to argue ad hominem, or use disparaging language as a matter of routine. Especially not against particular editors that one has just taken a disliking of. These practices damage the project much more than the departure of a constructive but ill behaved editor. Civility matters. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose as too weak. Doesn't really give a handle to block Captain Occam and Jclemens for their severe incivility. Hans Adler 15:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You're actually saying you're opposed to treating everyone respectfully? What is your proposed alternative, "Editors who violate community norms in persistent subtle ways we're just not good at dealing with will be driven off the project with heaps of verbal abuse?" Gerardw (talk) 15:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

No, that's not what Hans said at all. He's noting that we also need to deal with other editors who are disruptive and uncivil. (As an aside I consider misrepresenting someone's words to be far more uncivil and disruptive than using expletives, but that's another issue for another day.) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It's unclear to me what specifically you're opposed to. The basic premise is treating everyone respectfully. It seems to me the alternative to supporting that principle that is being implicitly sanctioned here is "Editors who violate community norms in persistent subtle ways we're just not good at dealing with will be driven off the project with heaps of verbal abuse," which doesn't seem reasonable. Gerardw (talk) 17:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I am opposed to turning Misplaced Pages into an environment with zero tolerance for superficial incivility and zero interest in much more harmful actions. Hans Adler 18:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. All editors should be capable of civil behaviour. Civil but unconstructive conduct can be dealt with in another proposal. Cusop Dingle (talk) 16:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Misplaced Pages can only work if it is a collaborative environment where others are treated with respect, which includes not being subject to personal attacks or abuse. Everybody should be held to the same standards of behaviour. If standards of behaviour are more clearly enforced it will (a) help to stop editors beiong driven off who do find such behaviour offensive (anbd may will find such attacks offensive), (b) reduce the potential for accusations of double standards and (c) hopefully reduce the potential for the sort of catastrophies like the one above - If people know what's intolerable and that action WILL be taken for persistant offenders, then it may constrain some editors who would otherwise eventually exhaust community goodwill and get kicked out.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with all of that. But what are you proposing? --JaGa 16:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• I don't even know what I would be agreeing with, let alone supporting or opposing.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that problem as well. Hans Adler 18:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support with addition This is very well done, Gerardw. It is toothless without enforcement guidelines. We need a civility pillar that is similar to WP:3RR. If you are brought to ANI with 3 civility claims that are not dismissed immediately and have merit (as in this case) then there is an automatic block action that any admin can say he is obligated to do. Alatari (talk) 13:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC) Alatari (talk) 13:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - these arguments about "civility" and all that always end up reminding me of this "Loud is not allowed!". Volunteer Marek  13:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Except Hank admits in later episodes that his anger was out of control and changes his behavior... :/ Alatari (talk) 13:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Even more modest proposal

As noted by this diff, OrangeMarlin's swearing attacks continue. Since above it was demonstrated that there wasn't a consensus for an indef block, I propose a two-week block for his swearing only, leaving out the greater Orangemarlin-Captain Occam feud Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 16:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

But that diff is several months old.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

This was really cheeky. That diff is from July, when Orangemarlin had left a farewell message in case he wouldn't survive his experimental surgery. Hans Adler 18:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Compromise proposal

Consensus is as important a principle as civility, and a reading of the comments in this section indicate their is not currently sufficient consensus for block due to the totality of circumstances which have occurred.

1. The interaction ban should be approved.
2. The following text be placed on Orangemarlin's talk page (text, of course, subject to discussion):
"While not justifying the personal attacks and lack of good faith to which you were subjected, the wikipedia community has a responsibility to uphold the its principles, including civility. Personal attacks cannot be condoned, and future attacks may result in blocking." Gerardw (talk) 17:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is essentially saying, "You've doing something wrong, and we're still not going to block you" Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 19:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Definitions

Do we have a clear definition of what constitutes swearing? Or what constitutes uncivil behaviour? One that works all around the globe, for all social classes, in all contexts? You should note from my spelling of behaviour that I am not American, and I repeatedly run into cultural differences of what is acceptable or not in language here. HiLo48 (talk) 16:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately not. Gerardw (talk) 16:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Swearing is irrelevant - it is possible to swear while being civil and to be uncivil without swearing. What matters is civility. We have quite useful definitions of the concept of civility. It is uncivil to communicate in ways that are intended to disparage other editors or which can reasonably be expected to be felt as disparaging. Basically civility is encapsulated in the concept of "don't do unto others" - with the corrollary that you actually have to take into account that some people may want to be treated differently from you and that you have to employ the faculty of empathy to make an educated guess at how they want to be treated. Its no mystery really.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Good point, but not the only problem. It's a fact that swearing is socially acceptable in Misplaced Pages's de facto culture. Otherwise I wouldn't do it, because I have never done it in real life except for an occasional "shit!" and I don't think I would ever do it on the German Misplaced Pages. But here it feels natural. I slowly acquired the habit here because it's normal.

It's a good idea to change this, but it's a bad idea to just pick some random method that involves a lot of blocking of users for what is perfectly normal and natural at the moment ,and to hope that it's going to have any effect other than causing a lot of disruption and making a number of editors leave the project forever. Hans Adler 18:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Absolute requirement

Clear definitions and clearly stated boundaries. We have to have one universally acceptable and accepted standard. A bright line, or a set of bright lines, so that everybody knows, without a shadow of a doubt, where we all stand. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 13:08, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but for many reasons (see above) this is not time/place or instance in which to draw the line. In hindsight, I regret inserting the "Simple civility principle" section above, not because I don't believe it entirely, but part of our responsibility -- a necessity -- is to build that consensus. At this point, I sincerely believe the best option is an acute "stop the bleeding" interaction ban followed by a consensus driven, inclusive approach to addressing the much greater chronic problem. It is my incredibly arrogant intent to try nudge the community towards that end, but being hasty will be counter-productive. Gerardw (talk) 13:15, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Close now

Propose that this entire thread be closed with no action at this stage as it is clear that there are strong feelings on both sides; any significant issues that occur after a month from closure should be raised at ANI. Johnuniq (talk) 03:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support as proposer: Normally I would enthusiastically support sanctions or last-chances for egregious incivility, however under the circumstances (false suggestions of faking a prolonged near-death condition) no benefit to the project would result from following those paths. There will be opportunities in the future to enforce WP:CIVIL if required. Anyone interested in maintaining CIVIL should spend some time at WP:WQA where assistance to reach swift conclusions on more obvious cases would be very helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 03:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

“false suggestions of faking a prolonged near-death condition”

Wow. There’s really nothing I can do to stop people misreading my comment about this (even after Nil Einne also pointed out that this is a misreading of it), is there? --Captain Occam (talk) 04:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

As Hans pointed out earlier, believing that there was a prolonged near-death condition, and still persisting to push for sanctions would be particularly reprehensible. Johnuniq (talk) 06:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Deciding to not sanction someone because they can’t participate is one thing, and that’s what ArbCom decided. But nobody on ArbCom has ever made the argument you’re making here: that an editor’s publicized health issues (however severe they may be) should make them exempt from any criticism of their behavior. I have health issues periodically—nothing as life-threatening as what OM experienced, but last year I went for a week during which I couldn’t go more than four hours without vomiting—and you know what? While that was happening I never even mentioned it here. I also have a much more long-term health issue that I tend to not talk about in general. And that’s because I think every editor has a responsibility to comply with policy regardless of their physical condition.

Why are you linking to the POV-pushing essay now as something you think I’m doing? Do you actually believe that I support the creationist POV of OrangeMarlin’s opponents here? --Captain Occam (talk) 12:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose until consensus is reached; not every editor edits daily (especially on weekends) so let's let the discussion run its course. Closing will not alleviate strong feelings, they'll merely migrate to other parts of Misplaced Pages. Better to continue to discuss and reach consensus. Gerardw (talk) 03:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose: Lets settle this.DMSBel (talk) 04:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, others have suggested that an interaction ban with DMSBel, who narrowly escaped a one year site ban on wikipedia, would also be appropriate. Mathsci (talk) 05:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

By all means. All I ever did initially was suggest an RFC on an image he was keen to see removed from an article. That was it. He went ballistic at me for suggesting it. From that he took a disliking to me, I don't recall saying anything to offend at that time. But I certainly didn't get into any argument at that time with him. DMSBel (talk) 05:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Holy handgrenade Batman, I just came back to this on this morning after having to work yesterday... how much damn time do you think we have to spend on here??? Alatari (talk) 14:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Organgemarlin and Captain Occam

• Orangemarlin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Somebody please go through the above section and post a concise and neutral summary of the facts and diffs so that newly arriving editors can familiarize themselves with the issue. There is an above section "Rude etiquette, name calling, and swearing" that may get archived. If that happens we will place a link to it here. Jehochman 15:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Propose Interaction Ban

• I think the best solution here may be an interaction ban between OrangeMarlin and CaptainOccam(and possibly other editors mentioned: User:DMSBel?). I am frankly appalled by OrangeMarlin's behavior, but there seems to be a history behind his failure of selfcontrol that runs deeper than a simple pattern of rude editing. If I believed that OrangeMarlin would act like this randomly without being provoked I would have issued a preventive civilty block myself. But I don't I think it is clear that the problem is between OrangeMarlin and a coupe of other editors with whom he has a history of mutual hostility - the fact that one part can keep their temper checked and the other can't shouldn't be what determines who is sanctioned. In short I propose an interaction ban - which will be enforced by blocks if further uncivil interaction ensues.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

See WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Proposed decision#DMSBel topic-banned. It seems that the user is narrowly missing an indefinite site ban and will instead get away with a one-year site ban and an indefinite topic ban. But under these circumstances an interaction ban involving DMSBel doesn't make sense. The user should simply be blocked when they are disruptive under these circumstances. Hans Adler 18:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

There were no site bans in the final decision. Mathsci (talk) 18:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I don’t know if you saw where I mentioned this above, but I had no prior interaction with OrangeMarlin before I commented on ArbCom’s decision regarding him in the abortion case around three weeks ago. He and I have never been involved in any of the same articles, so when and if the current issue is resolved, I doubt I’d ever interact with him again. For that reason I’m not going to actually object to an interaction ban, since after the end of this thread it probably won’t have any affect on me at all, but I don’t really see what it would accomplish either.

However, mutual interaction bans with some of the other users who’ve been his perennial adversaries might be worthwhile. Perhaps it should cover some of the users that he listed here. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually that makes me think that perhaps it doesn't run much deeper than a simple lack of selfcontrol... Without knowing the context that edit really makes me lean towards an indef block. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:12, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

That diff should also probably be seen in the context of this diff three days later. Mathsci (talk) 16:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

That is useful context. It is certainly human to not show one's best sides when under that kind of stress. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

That and the subsequent serious operation create special circumstances (you can read about that higher up). That's why unfortunately this is not quite as simple as it might seem. Mathsci (talk) 16:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Nonetheless, I think what we need to see is Orangemarlin coming forward and saying "I'm sorry my conduct has been unacceptable recently, there were special circumstances, I recognise that I need to do better in future, and will do so". We would surely all welcome that. Cusop Dingle (talk) 16:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Maunus: does what I mentioned change your perspective on whether an interaction ban is the right solution? Although I wouldn’t object to the interaction ban itself, it would bother me to see the community decide they think that’s enough to resolve the issue here, when what we really need (in my opinion) is arbitration. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 16:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support Unwrapping Captain Occam's comment here ; the insidious implication was that Orangemarlin was a liar and faking a near fatal medical condition; it is a reprehensible personal attack and a stunning lack of good faith. It is disappointing that JClemens essentially validated the comment. This alone is sufficient grounds for an interaction ban. Gerardw (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I find it really strange how many people are misreading what I said in that comment. In that comment I said, and I quote, "I believe him that he really was in the hospital." As I said in that comment (and clarified further in my subsequent comments), the only thing I was suspicious about is whether after he had recovered from the surgery, he might have delayed his return for longer than necessary until he could see that ArbCom wasn't going to sanction him because of his absence.

Most of my comments there stated this explicitly, and I've also pointed it out multiple times in this thread. Why is it impossible to stop people seeing something in my comment that isn't there? --Captain Occam (talk) 17:07, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

One alternative is many people are all very stupid. Another is that you choose your words poorly to the point of offensiveness and said something you didn't mean to say. Gerardw (talk) 17:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

the only thing I was suspicious about is whether after he had recovered from the surgery, he might have delayed his return for longer than necessary until he could see that ArbCom wasn't going to sanction him because of his absence.; the issue here is that it violates the idea of "assume good faith". Whether or not you hold that suspicion it is not possible to prove - so rather than voice it you should assume good faith. The problem you have identified is that by being absent for some time Arbcom may not apply sanctions; so rather than question whether that was the intention, simply point out that he is back and query whether this means he will be sanctioned. This would be acceptable :) or to put it another way; you've identified a problem, and in expressing it you've unfortunately mixed in a theory as to why the problem exists. The former is fine, the latter less so. --Errant 17:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Isn’t it generally accepted that there are limits to when assuming good faith is possible? If everyone always assumed good faith in every situation, nobody would ever be banned from Misplaced Pages. In this case, one of OM’s last comments before leaving was this, posting virulent personal attacks against six people whom he considered his adversaries. That (along with some of his earlier comments) pretty much exceeded the limit of my ability to assume good faith about him.

Am I unusual in this respect? I didn’t think I was, but in this thread it seems like everyone else’s limit is a lot higher than mine. Maybe I’m the one who’s unusual here, but I have trouble believing that the limit of my own capacity to assume good faith isn’t at least somewhere in the range of what’s reasonable. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

No. You threw mud at Orangemarlin while he was down. You imputed a bad faith motive for his observed inaction. That is outside the limit. Binksternet (talk) 18:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The Arbcom motion on Orangemarlin says very clearly that if Orangemarlin wants to start editing in the area that he would otherwise have been banned from explicitly, then he is to contact Arbcom first. What do you think that means other than that Orangemarlin is banned from editing in that area except if he can present evidence that this is inappropriate? At the time when you posted that section, Orangemarlin had made a single-digit number of edits after his operation. From hospital. From a mobile phone. It's unfair to treat an editor under these circumstances as if they could defend themselves, and given that there had earlier been a famous secret cangaroo court case against Orangemarlin, it was of the utmost importance not to blatantly break any of his procedural rights. (It's amazing how Jclemens could be so stupid as not to see this.)

What advantage did you hope to get from an implicit topic ban against Orangemarlin being turned into an explicit one that Arbcom would have had serious trouble to defend as fair if challenged?

As you say, it is generally accepted that there are limits to when assuming good faith is possible. And I find it impossible to assume anything other than that you were doing it out of spite. Because you were angry that Orangemarlin is still alive and wanted to kick him. Hans Adler 18:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, you know... And I find it impossible to assume anything other than that you were doing it out of spite. Because you were angry that Orangemarlin is still alive and wanted to kick him. is another example of where theory of motive is being mixed with the actual problem. I was with you till the last sentence or two... sheesh. --Errant 18:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Fully agreed there, ErrantX. Captain Occam's knowledge of Orangemarlin's editing most probably started when he was gathering evidence/diffs for the abortion case in early September at Jclemens' request. That provides context for Captain Occam's posting on the talk page of the PD. Mathsci (talk) 19:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, HA's last sentence is unacceptable. Cusop Dingle (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

What??? To quote Captain Occam: "Isn’t it generally accepted that there are limits to when assuming good faith is possible? If everyone always assumed good faith in every situation, nobody would ever be banned from Misplaced Pages." Can anyone give me an explanation of Captain Occam's (and Jclemens') bizarre behaviour that is consistent with good faith? Why was it so important to them to get closure on Orangemarlin's topic ban? Hans Adler 19:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

We are currently discussing the sentence "Because you were angry that Orangemarlin is still alive and wanted to kick him", written by you, Hans Adler. To have any reasonable justification for making this statement, you must at the very least to establish that this is as plausible as any other explanation for his behaviour. Since you can't look inside his head, you would have to adduce evidence for CO knowing that OM was gravely ill and a level of hatred (no other word for it) on the part of CO towards OM equivalent to wanting OM to die. You did not trouble to produce any evidence, it is inherently implausible, and MS above shows that the facts are against it. That makes it a very serious personal attack on CO, and rather than attempting to justify your misconduct by reference to the purported misdeeds of CO or others, you would do better to admit you were wrong to make such a disgraceful allegation and withdraw it right away. Cusop Dingle (talk) 20:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to confess something I haven't done. My assumption on the motivations behind Captain Occam's behaviour is just as well connected to the visible facts as Captain Occam's assumption on the motivations behind Orangemarlin's. In both cases AGF requires that we self-censor such thoughts. The difference is that I did so and assumed good faith. (To make it completely explicit, my AGF explanation goes as follows: Captain Occam had somehow convinced himself that OM was just simulating. He was aware that he could not say so because that would be an assumption of bad faith. Maybe he really tried to assume good faith but failed, or maybe he thinks AGF is just about public appearances. In any case he was unable to see the situation from an AGF angle at all, leading him to make this grave mistake in good faith. An alternative, less likely theory is an astonishing degree of ethical blindness. Assuming this theory is arguably assuming good faith.) When I AGF, I AGF in my mind and build my whole mental model of Misplaced Pages on it. That's the whole point of. If you don't do that, you might as well not AGF at all. Actual AGF prevents misunderstandings and is the grease that Misplaced Pages needs for smooth operation. Pretended AGF is a form of dissembling and may well cause more problems than ABF because it's impossible to respond to an accusation that was never made explicit. Hans Adler 12:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

(EC) I agree as well. Given the sensitivity of the situation, I think people should be careful about making accusations without good evidence, and of course this goes both ways. I don't think it's acceptable to say an editor wishes/d another editor dead. IMO, it's helpful to consider what if you're wrong, in a case like this, it's generally going to be be extremely offensive. Was much evidence presented about significant ill-will between OM and CO before the case started? (It seems CO wasn't a major participant in the case so seems unlikely to me.) If not, does HA actually have any evidence for such an illwill? Not that evidence would make it much more acceptable (well it goes some way towards a suggestion CO was kicking OM out of spite), but if neither are true then the accusation is even more perplexing.

Note that this doesn't mean I agree with CO. As I said, it goes both ways. Even if the timing was slightly suspicious, this is far from sufficient evidence to claim someone is making up a near fatal medical condition. Again, I think it should be obvious many people are going to find it really offensive if you say they made up the claim they were suffering from a near fatal condition, if they really were suffering from one. (I'm reminded of a case here where a university lecturer accused a student of making up the claim their father died. I'm simplifying, there was other stuff wrong on both sides. But one of the obvious problems is directly accusing someone of making up such a thing is likely to be very offensive if you're wrong which AFAIK, he was.)

Also I would suggest CO failed to look in to the timing properly. OM annouced their problems in early July, the case started in early August. Perhaps there were inklings of problems in July. But suggesting someone made up that they needed surgery which could very well kill them because of the possibility of a future arbcom case is an extreme claim and needs more evidence then the timing of return. If the intention was solely to suggest that OM was delaying their return, then CO's comments weren't sufficiently clear and even then still a bad idea. If someone really suffered from such a serious condition, it's resonable to let them return when they feel up to it, and IMO it's not even unresonable if they don't wish to engage in an arbcom case (but this doesn't mean that they shouldn't have to accept limitations on their editing arising out of it until such time they are willing to engage, nor does it excuse poor behaviour). If CO wasn't aware what OM was recovering from, then they shouldn't have brought the timing issue up without proper investigation.

Edit: I see CO has already clarified and re-reading the comment I realised I misread them, not helped by some of the earlier statements by others including OM's comment on AGF. However part of my answer still stands. If someone is suffered from a near-fatal condition, it's simply a bad idea to say they are delaying their return unnecessarily.

Nil Einne (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support This should stop the behaviour and baiting problems, and let the content editing continue. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support Frankly, I've seen enough in this wider thread to suggest an interaction ban is a good idea. Nil Einne (talk) 20:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I’m not sure how much I should care about a proposal that probably won’t affect me, but if Swarm’s “last chance” proposal below gets consensus (and it looks like it probably will), what exactly is an interaction ban going to accomplish? I had no interaction with OrangeMarlin anywhere on Misplaced Pages before three weeks ago, and the only reason I began paying attention to him is because I can’t stand the way he’s able make blatant personal attacks and consistently get away with it. If his behavior is going to improve, which it’ll have to do if the proposal below ends up passing, I’ll have absolutely no reason to interact with him beyond this point. If it’ll make the other people here feel better, I’m even willing to make a promise about this: As long as OrangeMarlin follows the instructions to refrain from personal attacks, I promise to completely disengage from him. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment (e/c with Captain Occam, who AFAICS still thinks that direct interaction is the only issue here). I'll support as long as it's made extremely clear that "interaction ban" doesn't just mean actual interaction, but also bans mentioning (=badmouthing, in this case, but CO doesn't seem to understand when he's calling somebody a liar, so "mentioning" it is) the other person anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Captain Occam has several times pointed out above that a mere "interaction" ban wouldn't affect him, as he has never confronted Orangemarlin directly, and isn't planning to start now. CO seems quite pleased with himself for having "only" talked about OM behind his back, not to him. Therefore, mentioning (or of course hinting at!) the other person needs to be also outlawed. This is perhaps obvious, but with a guy who introduces himself as "uninvolved", I presume for not having been in a direct "dispute" with OM, all bets are off. Oh, and re CO's comment just above, no you don't get to consider yourself released from the interaction ban if you find PAs, either real or perceived, by Orangemarlin, are you kidding? That's not how interaction bans work. Bishonen | talk 22:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC).

The promise I made above was meant to be as an alternative to an interaction ban, not in addition to it.

I don’t think you understand the point I’m making above. When I talk about having not been in any prior conflict with OM, I am specifically not referring to the last three weeks. I’m completely aware that starting three weeks ago, I’ve been trying to get the community to pay attention to his personal attacks, and I don’t have any problem with people referring to that as being a conflict with him during that time.

Here’s the point I was making: I’ve been active on Misplaced Pages since June 2009. From June 2009 until November 2011, I never interacted with OrangeMarlin or mentioned him or talked about him behind his back. That changed about three weeks ago, because I felt very strongly that he shouldn’t be getting away with his personal attacks. But if he’s going to stop making personal attacks (and get blocked immediately if he fails to stop), then I’ll be happy for things to return to the way they were for 29 of the 30 months I’ve spent here. That means not interacting with him or mentioning him in any context. Do you understand the point I’m making now? --Captain Occam (talk) 23:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand it, and it's a foolish suggestion (I quote myself: "are you kidding"?). You're never going to get any support for an offer to ignore OM but only as long as you're happy about the way he edits. Why exactly would you want to discuss him under those circumstances? It's precisely for the times people are not happy with each other, and do feel very strongly, that interaction bans are put in place. (They're usually suspended for giving evidence in an arbitration case, if that's of interest.) To assist self-restraint. I'm sorry, but you have given us ample reason to believe that any comments of yours on OM would enflame the sitation and make things worse.

OK, I wasn't going to nag on and on about this, but as long as you responded to my post, you might have explained what point you were making when you introduced yourself as "uninvolved"a couple of days ago? Not "three weeks" ago. Please compare my discussion of that claim above, and, if you will, address Casliber's comment on it. Bishonen | talk 14:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC).

I meant it the way Swarm meant it in this comment. I’ve never been involved in the dispute that led to the original complaint (or any other content dispute with OM, for that matter.)

Here’s an analogy that might make this distinction easier to understand. When an admin has observed an editor’s policy violations and tried to get the editor sanctioned for them, but has never been in a content dispute with that editor, for the purpose of something such as an AN/I thread that admin can be considered uninvolved. This standard of WP:INVOLVED is most often discussed in the context of admins, but it can be applied to regular editors also. That’s the sense in which I was uninvolved prior to this complaint, and the sense in which Swarm also considered me to have been uninvolved. By the same standard, Jclemens could also be considered uninvolved if he were to comment here, since Jclemens’ only interaction with OrangeMarlin was as an arbitrator judging a case in which OrangeMarlin was one of the parties. But that doesn’t mean Jclemens doesn’t care about this issue or hasn’t tried to get OM sanctioned, as he obviously has. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support While still recovering from a serious medical operation, Orangemarlin is understandably angry with Captain Occam for his inability to show empathy and finds it hard to control that anger. His personal attacks, however, are not excusable. Captain Occam on the other hand shows no awareness of how unethically he has acted; even in these very special circumstances, he apparently felt under no obligation to assume good faith. Having prepared evidence against Orangemarlin for the abortion case in September, Captain Occam's own edits and statements recently, as well as his past editing history, make it unlikely that he has abandoned his single-minded plan to bring Orangemarlin to justice on wikipedia. As further indications of this, Captain Occam has claimed above that he would disenegage from Orangemarlin, but afterwards he went straight back to lobbying an arbitrator on her talk page with suggestions of an arbitration case to impose sanctions on Orangemarlin. Thus there are reasons on both sides for an interaction ban. Mathsci (talk) 06:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment - My problem with this is that it distracts from the overall problem. The OP calls it "the best solution here", but I don't see how it's a solution at all. CO wasn't even involved in the original complaint. Swarm 08:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Captain Occam involved himself, escalating matters, which gave rise to a further incident on this page (the now redacted post of Orangemarlin). After that Maunus talked with Orangemarlin on his user talk page and proposed this solution as a consequence. Mathsci (talk) 08:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Look, I'm fully in support of this interaction ban, but I'm strongly against any notion that this is "the solution". That, if this and maybe a couple other interaction bans are put into place, OM's long term pattern of incivility is going to disappear. Getting provoked by an asshole editor is not a remarkable thing that happens only to OM. It happens to everyone. Swarm 09:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• (ec)I don't think the notion is that this is "the solution." Civility is important but so is consensus, and the overall consensus as I read it is that while OM has made unjustified personal attacks, there is sufficient suboptimal behavior by others involved that stronger sanctions beyond the interaction ban and (possibly) warning aren't justified here and now. OM will either proceed in an adequately civil manner in the future, which will be good for the encyclopedia; or they won't, at which point stronger measures can be taken. So I'd suggest this is "the best solution we're going get now." Gerardw (talk) 11:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I’ve been looking at some of the past discussions regarding OrangeMarlin in preparation for possibly requesting arbitration about this, and there have been eight other AN/I threads about him that ended with either no decision, or a decision to wait and see whether the problem continued before making a decision. There have also been eleven WQA threads about OM, including four in the past year. Even if at the moment it seems sensible to say that stronger measures can be taken in the future if the problem continues, I think the history makes it obvious what that outcome would actually amount to, because that's how almost every other AN/I or WQA thread about him has ended. This only means it’ll be another few months until this issue ends up back at AN/I again, at which point everyone will be back in the same situation they’re in currently.

I understand your point about how it isn’t possible to do more than there’s a consensus to do, but we shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking that what you’re suggesting is a solution at all. It’ll only be the latest iteration of the same cycle that’s been occurring since 2008. --Captain Occam (talk) 11:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• If a mutual interaction ban between myself and OrangeMarlin could be combined with similar bans between him and the other editors who’ve been targets of his personal attacks, I’ll accept that outcome as accomplishing what I wanted to accomplish. I think it’s important that we include all of his perennial adversaries, though. Based on his comment here, those seem to include Dreadstar, Fences and Windows, DMSBel, Ludwigs2, FT2, and Cla68. It might also be worth including Jclemens, since OrangeMarlin feels and talks about Jclemens the same way that he does about me (, ), and for basically the same reason. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Discussion about possible interaction ban between OrangeMarlin and DMSBel

• Strongly support As DMSBel had previously limited himself to only editing about C.S. Lewis (now that his battlefield mentality, edit warring, and tendentious editing have gotten him topic banned from Human Sexuality and Abortion generally). I mean, for someone who had never overlapped with Orangemarlin suddenly showing up after their topic ban and taking an interest in, say Bigfoot out of the blue, would be an OBVIOUS sign of Wikistalking, right? Hipocrite (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Is it? Following another editors talk page to see what is going on from time to time is fairly normal on here, is everyone doing it considered to be stalking? The big-foot comment was a joke, I added (humour) after it in case someone took it seriously, not that i didn't think the editor wouldn't get it. But there it is, my sense of humour obviously sucks. Besides I seen the discussion about Bigfoot on MastCell's talkpage, not OMs, and the reason I was there was that I had been looking back over earlier comments from TenOfAllTrades that he made there, which were relevant to a discussion I was having with him elsewhere. So is that stalking?DMSBel (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Last chance?

Sorry to pile another section header onto this, but I don't see how any of the above solves anything. I assume most of us know that OM's pattern of incivility is nothing new; I recall a discussion with them over some of their comments earlier this year. A big problem here is that the community by and large let's him get away with it. They've only had one block for personal attacks back in 2008, and they were almost immediately unblocked. OM has always been given a hell of a lot of leeway in light of his positive contributions to the encyclopedia. But I hope we would all agree that calling other editors is too far. It's clear that no administrators so far have felt a block is warranted now (or that none want to see him blocked, myself included). But I think it's time to give OM a formal, final warning that his behavior needs to shape up before he is going to be facing a block. We're really not asking much of him at all. He doesn't need to start being jolly and cheerful and friendly to everyone. He doesn't even need to refrain from swearing. He just needs to stop making personal attacks and other blatantly uncivil comments. Swarm 19:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Support, along with interaction ban (reasons previously stated). Gerardw (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Really? I share my opinion about a possible course of action to solve this problem, and your response is an 'oppose' vote? With no comment? Really? Can I ask what exactly you're opposing and why? I could care less whether people agree or disagree with my opinions, but when good faith attempts at discussion and are responded to with an oppose votes with no rationale, it's pretty frustrating and a bit condescending. Swarm 09:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Silly, illogical suggestion!!! Immediately after a sub-section where it was made obvious that we have no clear definition of the crime you want to prosecute someone for, you want to warn him about committing it. We have to do better than that! HiLo48 (talk) 19:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Orangemarlin has engaged in personal attacks. The lack of a specific generally agreed understanding of civility does not preclude reaching consensus in a particular instance. I can not know how far I can swim without drowning, and simultaneously know I can't swim twenty miles. Note: there is no crime and no prosecution here, Misplaced Pages is privately owned and therefore there is no violation of civil or property rights if an editor is prohibited from editing. Gerardw (talk) 20:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Personal counter-attacks, to be precise. Hans Adler 20:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand this simply as saying that from now on Orangemarlin will no longer get the special treatment that he got so far (he was basically exempt from blocking, whatever he did). In fact, whether we make it official or not, the situation is already much worse: By now he is under the same scrutiny as Giano and Malleus. I am not sure what prompted this change. Maybe so far Orangemarlin wasn't a good target of envy because he has never been engaged in serial production of extremely high quality articles, and now people envy him for the sympathies he got when terminally ill... Hans Adler 20:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Support with the proviso that OM responds by explicitly acknowledging that his behaviour has been unacceptable and agrees to abide by community norms of civility (which was the point of the "Modest Proposal" above). Cusop Dingle (talk) 20:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

This a bad idea and shows little insight into human psychology; it is more likely to provoke a final outburst. It would be better to just place the block than try to coerce into some self-flagellation rhetoric. Place the warning. He'll indicate his acceptance or refusal by future behavior, and future behavior is the goal. Gerardw (talk) 20:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

If so, then so be it. That's what a "last chance" looks like. Cusop Dingle (talk) 21:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do you feel simply instructing him not to repeat the behaviour, with a clear cut warning it's likely to lead to a block, isn't sufficient? Nil Einne (talk) 21:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Because some people are more likely to feel that they should keep their word once given. Cusop Dingle (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Support I've seen a few examples of problems with OM's behaviour before, but OM's comments in this thread seem to sufficiently demonstrate the problem. OM may be a good content editor, etc, but unless they can start to moderate their comments and drasticly reduce the personal attacks, they're not an acceptable editor in a colloborative environment like wikipedia. (Someone earlier suggested OM is a good debater, I would have to disagree. My views on many matters are probably closer to OM then their opponents. But from what I've seen here and in some of the comments which started this thread, OM style is more likely to alienate then convince me they are right.) Nil Einne (talk) 20:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support Another editor was blocked indefinitely two years ago for suggesting that OM was a troll. He's still blocked while OM uses far worse language continuously. This lack of natural justice is offensive. What seems especially troubling in the latest outbursts are the threats of violence. As Wikipedians get together at Wikimeets and Wikimanias, it seems quite unacceptable to have such threats being made casually as they may well lead to real harm. Warden (talk) 23:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Firefly was blocked for BLP violations and longer term disruption (including deleting other users comments in an AFD), not for calling OM a troll. Nformation 23:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Firefly was given a "last chance" warning, just like we are discussing here. The issue was OM was crying because Firefly had linked to WP:TROLL. That had come about because OM had been nominating Firefly's articles for deletion (the articles were kept). None of that had anything to do with BLP — it seemed to be more a case of lese-majesty as OM was an admin at that time. OM expected that other editors should restrain their language when referring to him. Per WP:SAUCE, the converse now applies. Warden (talk) 07:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Agree with Gerardw's reasoning above. Obviously most arbitrators felt we are at a badly chosen moment for poking or cornering OM (see discussion here), and so do I. This is terrible timing for a "last chance". Bishonen | talk 23:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC).

From my reading of that discussion, a topic ban lacked consensus due to OM's inability to participate in the proceedings. I don't see how that discussion is directly applicable here. Can you clarify? Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Orangemarlin got a new lease on life, if you allow me that cliché, and returned to Misplaced Pages in what seems to me a much more constructive mood than before. That's not a good time to punish him for his past. Keeping up a topic ban is one thing (and it appears that de facto he is under one), but blocking him for overreacting in the way one would expect to an extreme provocation is another.

To put it differently: Punishment can only have a corrective effect when it comes for things that people can actually help doing. Taking into account the provocation, his recent outburst is nothing compared to his pre-surgery behaviour. If we punish even that, he has the choice between just living with a series of escalating blocks or leaving Misplaced Pages entirely. It's the same principle that made Giano's 'civility parole' such an effective tool for escalating disruption. Hans Adler 00:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Hans: What do you mean? I find the argument that "he's changed, this was just an isolated outburst" laughable. He's engaged in blatant personal attacks in this very ANI thread! (In the what, two weeks since he's been back?) No one's talking about "punishment" at all, much less for past behavior. It's quite clear this behavior is very current. Swarm 08:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

What reasoning? Gerardw has opposed any attempt to force OM to promise they will be better (but only CD is suggesting that), but supported a last warning. Nil Einne (talk) 09:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Still blindly enforcement of civility without any consideration for baiting or other circumstances. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per Bishonen and Enric Naval. Mathsci (talk) 04:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• @Mathsci/Enric: "Blind enforcement" would be a block with no discussion. It's absurd that you're willing to reduce all this discussion to "blind enforcement" of policy. This is clearly one of the more deeply considered case of civility we've had in some time. Secondly, you can't possibly justify a long term pattern of incivility and personal attacks because a user was baited in the ANI thread. Thirdly, since when does being baited give one a license to make personal attacks? It's happened to all of us; the vast majority of editors here follow the standard advise or, if needed, report the problematic user at ANI. We don't call launch personal attacks on whatever asshole editor happens to be getting on our nerves. We deal with it like adults are expected to do in real life. Swarm 18:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Support: I have listened to enough and seen enough. OMs very first comments to me were by any standards not just ignorant and rude, but an attempt to poison the well against me in discussion by bringing up a topic ban that I had, and was abiding by, and had been given permission at the time to edit the topic he clashed with me on. He's not simply un-civil, he has become a consumate gamer of the system. Rudeness is the least of the problems. He does his own fair share of provoking, in fact he seems to enjoy it. Intelligent he may be, but the time wasted on these disputes is too much, the annoyance too much. Most every other editor here has equal intelligence, and is more civil. I thought it was just an temperament problem with him, and that he would calm down, but he manipulates as can be seen from his comments in this thread and has pulled a fair little circle of supporters around him who enable him to go on, and make excuses. No. It's OM who baits others. Ultimatum time is here. Last warning before total site ban. No more crap taken.DMSBel (talk) 04:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

DMSBel is a far more problematic editor than Orangemarlin and has been nibbling at the fringes of his topic ban by poking Orangemarlin on his talk page. Because of a procedural loophole, DMSBel narrowly escaped a lengthy site-ban himself. The comments above are a clear indication of why ArbCom was vassilating between a one year and an indefinite site-ban for DMSBel. He now appears to have brought his abortion-based battles to this page in a thinly disguised form. Mathsci (talk) 05:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Time to request an amendment to the Abortion case? By now it has become painfully obvious that DMSBel simply has moved his WP:BATTLE to other fronts. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Not at all, others brought me into the discussion before I commented. Thanks for your comments though. You say I am more problematic, how exactly, since the thread is not about me, despite yours and a few other editors attempts to make it about me? I offered OM an apology for earlier comments. DMSBel (talk) 05:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

You have been mentioned already in this thread because of the poking. Your rant above suggesting a site-ban is one indication of the problems with your editing. The rest is summed up in Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion. As written on WP:AE, you come here with unclean hands.

@ SBHB: since DMSBel is editing as if the abortion case has not been closed, probably some kind of amendment should be requested. Mathsci (talk) 05:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I was asked to discuss at an amendment discusion, I haven't edited abortion or any of its topics since the arb closed. What procedural loophole were you refering too? I come here with reputation smeared by others mostly. But ok my hands are not perfectly clean, are yours? Let me try again then. OM I apologise for instances where my comments have been provocative, I didn't actually propose any measures to be taken against you at the Arb. though I did cite some evidence. I'd certainly like to let the past go. I'll strike my support above, providing you refrain from making comments about me elsewhere on wikipedia. DMSBel (talk) 06:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

DMSBel, all of this is quite inappropriate, Mathsci (talk) 06:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

In what way exactly? I have removed my support comment and offered an apology, in what way is that inappropriate? DMSBel (talk) 06:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Also I am not sure what the reference to WP:AE is about but if you mean by unclean hands, i have been involved in a dispute with OM then I plead guilty, I should not have commented or supported any motion. I have struck the comment.DMSBel (talk) 06:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

"Unclean hands" is explained in the rubric at the top of the WP:AE page: please read it. Your statements here - "I'll do X provided you do Y" - to someone who's not even present are a further indication that there are unresolved matters. On a technical note could you please indent your comments properly for readability? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 06:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

OK yes that was inapropriate, so I have already done X, I'd like if OM did Y. But as regards not being here, I wasn't notified either when I was brought into this discussion, I just happened across it, and found myself being discussed, not exactly proper was it?. If someone wants to take the support comment right out by all means do so.DMSBel (talk) 06:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure I fully understand the unclean hands thing, I'd need to read it again when I am less tired. I thought you meant since I'd made comments on OMs page, I was not entitled to support any action here. Is that what it means? Whatever it means, I have struck my support. I am done here for tonight.DMSBel (talk) 06:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. I have a high tolerance to editor's rants, frequently expressed out of anger at being deliberately provoked by others. However, the strength of feelings expressed by OM and repeated with apparent equanimity are a bit rich, even for me. They were not, as someone foolishly stated "factual accurate descriptions of the behaviour of editors". They went much further in their personally targeted, repeated vitriol. If this is allowed to stand as an example of acceptable behaviour, which anyone can then use as a defence precedent, we are beyond the slippery slope. Leaky Caldron 13:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support I did not know that OM had been reported here for personal attacks at least 3 times now and no matter how much I like the guy it is a disservice to him to keep allowing him to think he can treat anyone he wants in anyway he wishes. When my mother was dying in the ICU and I had an argument with the security guard and I ended up throwing him against the wall after he broke my cell phone... I did some community service and shelled out cash for a lawyer and sat in jail for a night with a broken rib. My emotional state about my mother's death did not get me out of doing the time. Alatari (talk) 13:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support. I was away for the weekend and surprised to see all the action that came out of my efforts to put this issue on notice. I'm disappointed that this is the least action that can come of this, because OM's actions are inexcusable. OM's contributions can hardly be counted as positive, perhaps in the way that a heckler is to a comedian helps with the comedy. Even now, OM spits in the face of the actions that we are taking here. It is not just the profanity, I can take that - it is the general nature of OM's approach to things. It is clear that OM does not want to work with other editors once OM takes issue with someone that's it - OM will become your albatross and a nuisance. I'm a relatively new editor in here and if this kind of thing is not addressed, there is no way I will remain on wikipedia. I'm not going to work on pages in earnest to be heckled by a nuisance. OM's posts are like spam in the discussion boards. In the evolution as fact and theory discussion pages - OM is still up to the same tricks, just dropped the profanity: "Everyone understands why the gravity analogy is there. Well, everyone that is a real scientist." = insult. "I do not get why you keep bragging. It doesn't impress anyone." = insult. These were not launched at me, but at Thompsma who is verbose (I know this), but this is not helping. Clearly, OM has an alternate motive that is not in line with the pillars of Misplaced Pages. I hope that we find a way to address this uncivil obstinacy, heckling, and a nuisance - because it is not doing anyone a service.Claviclehorn (talk) 17:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: Apart from a few comments of mine on OMs page which I admit (though made in responce when I seen some comments about me) didn't help to defuse the situation, and later apologised for. I am not sure who is baiting OM. I don't see it as a baiting issue. I see it more as a problem not with one or two editors but with a group of enablers who take and defend one side rather too much and probably feed the problem as much as anyone baiting OM does. Not taking action on compassionate grounds, as Arbcom did in this instance, was not support or encouragement to continue in the same way. But many comments on OMs talk page after his return in support of him I believe gave the wrong impression that the earlier personal attacks and general lack of civility were pretty much no big deal, and so continuation of the same would not be a big deal either. That is as big a factor here as any baiting, and I believe largely why things don't change a lot. Very few of his friends tell him straight and plain when he is going to far.DMSBel (talk) 18:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support - The guy is contributing to a very hostile atmosphere, particularly for new users. He has contributions of value to make but he needs to stay in line like everyone else. - Haymaker (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Is this some kind of rerun of the abortion case? Mathsci (talk) 22:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm not going to vote here, because I am involved in the current disagreement with OM in the Evolution as fact and theory talk pages. However, I would like to add that I have been editing in here since 2008 and never have I been inclined to get involved in any form of administrator dispute resolution. The posts by OM have been very disruptive. I don't appreciate being heckled by other editors, as Claviclehorn has correctly identified as a trait consistent with OM's posts. I would offer to OM any form of reconciliation possible to get along as an editor for the purpose of moving forward on the article. It is frustrating to feel as though I have to defend my character prior to posting an edit in an article with the threat imposed that my edits will be deleted. Plus OM's comments are infectious - once you have been labelled or targeted I note that other editors have used this to gang up on my posts. This is a new experience for me and it has been very unnerving. If I were not a more experienced editor I would have surely quit given the nuisance OM has caused. Since the dispute that started this thread I have entered into discussion with other editors and it seems like some of the more level headed editors (although they don't agree with me) are entering into the discussion and we are actually making progress. We need a positive community spirit to build on the Misplaced Pages model so that new editors will remain and continue to contribute. I believe in Misplaced Pages and have for the most part had a tremendous amount of support, patience, understanding, civility, and respect from other editors. There are a few editors I hold regular disagreements with, but even with those disagreements I respect their posts and value their contributions. I am finding it very difficult to afford this same degree of levity toward OM and feel that something needs to be done. The ultimate aim would be to find some kind of resolution that brings OM into the fold of cooperation and to stop with the personal attacks. The profanity is not the issue, it is the heckling and personal attacks that are distracting and have nothing to do with the articles. It makes it difficult to keep the talk pages focused on topic.Thompsma (talk) 23:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Amazing!! Just after posting this thread, I returned to the talk pages to find a new post by OM: "ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Thompsma....apparently in between your personal attacks on me and your long-winded POV pushing here, you're not listening to anyone. You're quote mining. You're pushing a creationist POV. And you're getting very tendentious." - Once again, I'm being labelled as a creationist POV pusher, despite the fact that several editors who know me from experience that I am in no way a creationist POV pusher. I am a scientist with a MSc in Zoology, I teach science classes at a university on evolution , and I have published peer-reviewed papers on evolution. Clearly, OM is doing this not to contribute to the discussion, but to piss people off in a juvenile way.Thompsma (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree - it is annoying and disruptive. Thompsma is not a creationist POV pusher and is not launching personal attacks on OM. OM is being a nuisance. I strongly support some kind of action toward OM.Claviclehorn (talk) 23:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Orangemarlin has been blocked by an arbitrator who has not taken part in this or the previous thread. Well, I have to go to bed, I'm sure she'll be made aware of the ongoing discussion soon enough without any need for me to tell her. Bishonen | talk 23:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC).

• What makes you think she is not fully aware? This is my first comment in this topic but I've been following it. Awareness does not require participation.--v/r - TP 02:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Resolution

Based on review of the edits of the three editors primarily involved in this "concern", as well as these threads, I have taken the following actions:

• Orangemarlin (talk · contribs) is blocked indefinitely until he is prepared to edit without making personal attacks. Any administrator may unblock once Orangemarlin has made the necessary undertaking to cesae making personal attacks.
• DMSBel (talk · contribs) is banned for one year as an arbitration enforcement action under discretionary sanctions with respect to the Abortion arbitration case. Appeal is to the Arbitration Committee.
• Captain Occam (talk · contribs) is banned for one year as an arbitration enforcement action under the discretionary sanctions with respect to the Abortion arbitration case. After three months, his ban may be modified to permit editing to content-only areas of the project; please see the block notice on his talk page. Appeal is to the Arbitration Committee.

I have made this blocks in my capacity as an administrator, not as an arbitrator. Should either of DMSBel's or Captain Occam's blocks be appealed to the Arbitration Committee, I will not participate in any non-public discussion of the block for as long as I remain a member of the Arbitration Committee. Risker (talk) 04:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

User Novaseminary reported for obsessive battling and disruptive behavior

This is the first time that I have ever reported anybody anywhere for anything in Misplaced Pages. Regarding this individual, after hundreds and hundreds of interactions and observations over approximately 2 years, there is no more “assuming”, there is “knowing”. I am going to describe the general situation for context, and then describe a specific small situation where I have decided to finally take a small stand and request a small action.

User Noviseminary chronically exhibits obsessive battling behavior with other editors. Also, certainly in my case, this includes following to other articles where I've edited do this at those in response/retaliation for standing my ground at another article. This is mostly focused on the individuals rather than actual content disputes. The pattern is to go after the targeted individual and do very aggressive deletion, tagging, and very aggressive editing strongly and directly focused on the work of the individual. And, if someone stands their ground with them they follow them to other articles where the victim has edited and start similar activities.

Due to their extreme cleverness:

• wiki-saavy in general
• misusing (and, to newbies, misrepresenting) policies/guidelines (rather than violating them) to conduct warfare
• often a small overused/ misused shred of legitimacy in many of the battling edits
• continuously rapidly erasing (not archiving) their talk page so that it would take hours for someone to see their history there
• knowing how to sound wikipedian and pretending to be (sound) reasonable when doing this
• mixing in legitimate housekeeping type edits with the obsessive battling edits and pointing to those to refute complaints

it would take me 20 hours (including hundreds of diffs) to fully communicate what this individual has been doing, hence I'm only noting this for context in a "IMO" framework, and then asking for and supporting a remedy on a particular situation as taking a small stand on a big problem. Most of this is conducted against newbies, I was also a newbie when it started. This chased many of them out of Wikipeda but I survived.

In my case, it started about 2 years ago with a brief head butting at the Carrie Newcomer article, my first interaction with them, where I ended up leaving it as they preferred: and branched out as they followed me to article after article from there. ALL of my subsequent conflicts with this individual have been at articles which they subsequently followed me to, and each “following” was generally preceded by (and in response/retaliation to) me standing my ground with them at another article

These sections of the talk page at the Machine vision article provide a tiny but very typical/representative glimpse:

• Talk:Machine vision#I reverted deletion of 3/4 of the article
• Talk:Machine vision#Processing methods section
• Talk:Machine vision#Please discuss on talk page before removing large amounts of material
• Talk:Machine vision#Proposed plan to expand / improve
• Talk:Machine vision#Phoenix
• Talk:Machine vision#Removal of direct interface section

Another very representative slice can be seen at the small talk page and edit summaries of the Feast of the Hunters' Moon article.

I leave my talk page as an “open book”, I don’t delete anything except broadcast type items, and I only archive two types of things, one of them a special archive for this individual due to the length and nastiness of those items. This can be viewed at User_talk:North8000/Archive_N

I have not followed them to any articles. The only time that I’ve ended up at one of their articles was about 2 times (only) when one of their many fights showed up on a notice board that I watch and then I made only low key moderator type comments.

In response to recent renewed clashes at the Machine vision and Feast of the Hunters' Moon articles they followed me to an article (Weld monitoring, testing and analysis) where I have been doing some rescue type work.

The rescue work article started out at an article called Signature image processing. (SIP) I originally brought up the idea of deleting this predecessor article. My concern was that that it was overly narrow and focused on one company's particular method of doing weld monitoring and testing, and that the generic-technical-sounding title was not such, it is a term only for that particular company’s product, and that it had a somewhat promotional tone. Other editors disagreed, making good points saying that it was a heavily sourced article on a legit topic. During ensuing conversations, it became clear that none of the editors had a coi. Over a three month period it was decided to redirect/expand this article into a broader, uncovered topic which is Weld monitoring, testing and analysis where the subject of the previous article became merely a section in the new article. I sort of "warned" ahead of time that the other sections would temporarily be stubs, hopefully temporarily as other editors built it over time. I researched other articles, especially the Welding article to make sure that this topic was uncovered. Also it was clear that real coverage of Signature image processing at Welding which is a top level article on a even much broader topic would be ungainly/undue. Recently I rechecked with the 3 other editors (also see their talk pages on this)....100% agreed and I made the move. As anticipated the new sections were stubs. I posted a note at the talk page of the Welding (which, structurally, this is basically a sub-article of) article about this article and solicited editors. I did some work and the intended to leave the article (for development by others) until Novaseminary assaulted it.

Then Novaseminary followed me to the article in immediate retaliation for me standing my ground with them at the Feast of the Hunters' Moon and Machine vision and did the following:

• First they proded the article (and tag bombed it, I’ve left all of the other tags in place) saying that it did not meet notability and that the SIP section was “seems not much more than a vehicle to promote the academic whose photo appears below and whose work is the only work profiled here.” I removed the prod tag, saying that the subject has EXTENSIVE coverage in sources, plus referring them to the extensive talk page discussion which led to this.

• Second So then they put a notability tag on the article. To be doubly safe I put more material & sources in. I responded and removed the tag.

• Third So then they nominated the article for deletion. (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Weld monitoring, testing and analysis) As of this writing it is still open, but I think that it became obvious to Novasemianry that the deletion is wp:snow prompting them to take the next actions.

• Fourth So then (with the AFD still open) they gutted the article and undid the whole consensused rework by moving the SIP material back out into a separate article, undoing the redirect. I reverted this

• Fifth So then(with the AFD still open) they edited the redirect back into a competing article which duplicated the SIP material. Mind you, this competing article is the same content and topic which they originally said "seems not much more than a vehicle to promote the academic whose photo appears below and whose work is the only work profiled here” I reverted this

The articles for deletion page is very informative on this Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Weld monitoring, testing and analysis

Again, regarding this individual, after hundreds and hundreds of interactions and observations over approx 2 years, there is no longer a matter of “assuming”, it is a matter of “knowing”

I have decided to, on behalf of Misplaced Pages and their other current and future victims to invest the time to take this small stand on a big problem. I am not asking for action on the larger problems because I have not spent the 20 hours it would take to fully communicate and support what I have said that this individual has been doing. I ask that the proportionally microscopic but important measure be taken of blocking Novaseminary from editing the Signature image processing and Weld monitoring, testing and analysis articles for one week or one month and warning them to, after that, obtain consensus before doing such aggressive, controversial major changes on these. It is important this bigger problem of abuse of editors with clever so-far impunity be confronted, even to this very small extent. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:37, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I am very sorry to say that I have observed the same sort of things with Novaseminary. The response to newbies has been particularly disturbing. This edit is a good example of what I have seen. The Strict Baptists article had been subject to vandalism in the past, and Novaseminary might have thought the newbie editor was the vandal. But Novaseminary's actions were also based on a dubious interpretation of WP:IMAGE, and worst of all, there was very little explanation or encouragement on the article's talk page, the offending user's talk page, or even in the edit summaries. Perhaps a mentorship would be appropriate. StAnselm (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• There is a colossal amount of history to read through here, but my initial impression is that Novaseminary is a valuable contributor with a deep understanding of wikipedia, but who can be prickly and difficult to deal with. He also seems to have problems working collaboratively, and struggles when not getting "his own way". More seriously, a quick look at the deletion discussion presented by North above reveals what looks like an attempt by Novaseminary to subvert the result when he realised the discussion wasn't going his way. That said, he does a lot of good work and is valuable to the project; perhaps mentorship would be of benefit? Basalisk ⁄_berate 01:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  I'm pretty confident that I know this individual the best of anybody in wikipedia. This is a people-chemistry-with-editors driven situation; content battles are the trigger and the result of this, but these battles are not driven by the usual clash of ideologies or content agendas as most other Misplaced Pages battles are. And they do have a very nasty streak in one area that I have not discussed. I am also guessing that a small action might have a substantial impact with this individual, but some type of mentoring would be better. North8000 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

North and I obviously have a history. I prefer to focus on content, however, so I will briefly address the recent content episode North mentioned.

• I think Weld monitoring, testing and analysis is not itself a notable topic (as such), though it may contain many notable topics. It seemed to me to be several concepts strung together. I sent it to AfD here. This article had been created when North moved it from Signature image processing, leaving behind a redirect. I do think Signature image processing does meet N on its own (if barely), so I spun it off in its recent edited form from Weld monitoring, testing and analysis at Signature image processing. I then edited Weld monitoring, testing and analysis using summary style, adding a link to the main article (Signature image processing) and adding a source I took from the amin article so the new summary was sourced. This also had the effect of bringing the Weld monitoring, testing and analysis into proportion among the topics. Anyway, if North thinks Signature image processing fails WP:N, the way to delete it or enforce an alternative to deletion is through AfD. He should not continue re-redirecting and removing talk where I explained myself. Regardless, none of my edits to either article have been disruptive, nor is the AfD (even when North went personal at the AfD immediately).
• Unfortunately, I am personally being called into question here. To that end I would note the following:

• StAnselm, himself sometimes prickly to work with, sometimes great to work with, was blocked a few weeks ago after I reported him at WP:AN3. There is also a minor disagreement between us that is the subject of an RfC (here) that is not going his way.
• And North and my real history turned sour at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Traveler's Dream where an article he created was deleted after I put it up for discussion. He went so far afterwards as to create a section on his talk age for my posts, User talk:North8000/Archive N (where there is no nastiness on my part). I would summarize our main philosophical disagreement as being that I feel strongly that material should not be added until sourceable (preferably sourced) and North is fine with more personal knowledge and synthesis in the hope (honestly held, I believe, but wrong, I believe) that this will elad to better articles. The is exemplified on one of the examples North gave above, here. But it needn't get personal.

So if I hurt North's or StAnselm's feelings, I wish I hadn't and I am sorry. But disagreements about content, however strongly held our positions may be, should not get personal. For any part I had in turning them that way, I am also sorry. I hope you all are, too. I have done my best to avoid them both as of late, but that is not always going to happen. I'd say we all get back to editing constructively.

Novaseminary (talk) 04:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The AFD at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Traveler's Dream is another place which Novaseminary followed me to and exhibited this behavior. If I were spending the 20 hours preparing the overall presentation, that would certainly be in there. Not as tidy of an illustration due to its hugeness and the fact that the other 1/2 of the material is no longer available to view (extensive relevant talk page content lost with the userfication) but a read through the AFD shows the same obsessive battling behavior. Gutting the article and removing references and notability-related information simultaneously with nominating it for AFD based on notability, and they probably spent at least dozens of hours to attack it and every detail in it from every possible angle. North8000 (talk) 08:37, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It is further instructive of the cleverness of this individual to note what I already said that the special ARCHIVE was due to a combination of me never deleting and seldom archiving editor conversations from my talk page and wanting to get theirs off of my main talk page. After explaining this they described it as "so far afterwards as to create a section on his talk age for my posts". And they implied cause-effect by "afterwards" whereas it actually happened 10 months later. North8000 (talk) 08:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The described "philosophical disagreement" does not exist. I 100% agree with Novseminary's description ("I feel strongly that material should not be added until sourceable (preferably sourced)") of "their side" of the non-existent philosophical disagreement. North8000 (talk) 11:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

A minor but very clarity-creating example that this is person-focused battling rather than about such differences is when, as the first edit to the article in three months, with this edit ] I added an additional "medium quality" reference to the article. It was from a national website on events, not such a high quality wp:rs to be assault proof, but I added it only as a second source supporting a statement that was already in there. Within a day Novaseminary showed up and began battling to eliminate the new source, with no challenge of the statement which it supported. In short, they battled to reduce the sourcing on a statement because it was one of their targeted victims (me) who added the source. North8000 (talk) 12:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Further to my previous comment, it is instructive and illustrative to note that in order to continue the "come after me" process at the weld monitoring article Novaseminary in essence did a complete reversal of their position on the SIP material. When the way to "come after me" was to attack the overall article, they in essence criticized the SIP material as unworthy of even being a section in the article. When that failed, in order to continue to aggressively go after my work they took the material that they essentially said wasn't even worthy of a section in the article and instead made an entire article out of it. This dramatically illustrates that it was about coming after me via aggressive and obsessive targeting of my work rather than anything else. North8000 (talk) 08:37, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Given the depth of material here, would a RFC/U not be a better venue? --Blackmane (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

{small|Someone screwed up somewhere and my comment was moved somewhere else. --Blackmane (talk) 09:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)}}

What I strongly request

1. The creepiest, nastiest and most concerning me-focused stuff from this individual I can't and didn't talk about here and received partial help on from oversight on. As a remedy, a complete ban against this individual doing or writing anything even remotely raising privacy concerns regarding myself, including anything that involves or is focused on or based on even guesses/imaginations about my RW identity.* As an aside, by my initiative and choice, I gave an oversighter my RW identity in relation to this.
2. A warning to generally dial back their targeting me and my work for aggressive activity at articles that they followed me to.* North8000 (talk) 16:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

*These could have wording that does not presume a determination of past behavior. Like a preface "Whether or not such has occurred, do not......" North8000 (talk) 10:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

What I suggest

1. A 1 week block at those two articles, and a warning to go to talk and get a consensus before making any major controversial changes there after that.
2. Some type of mentoring or at least mentoring-lite regarding this type of behavior. North8000 (talk) 16:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I never violated any policy at those articles and only made a handful of edits at them anyway (and left North's version after he started to edit war, and haven't even edited there recently). There is no ”incident” to discuss here. And I would suggest that North be warned to not make personal attacks as he has from the first AfD at which we crossed paths (Traveller's Dream). At least that would be based on policy. But North, instead, why don't we just get back to editing constructively instead of wasting time here so you can win a point? Novaseminary (talk) 14:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, there are the usual mis-characterizations, several in one paragraph, but a change there is not expected or essential at this point The items under "what I suggest" are more for the good of Misplaced Pages and I don't have any pressing personal concern to have them implemented. With resolution of the other items, I would let others judge (and would be comfortable with any decision) without pursuing or discussing them further here.

But the items under "what I strongly request" are of great importance to me. If you would truly agree to those things, then from my standpoint, I would be ready to move on. It would be OK to word them differently in a way that does not imply any conclusions about past behavior such as: #1 Completely avoid doing or writing anything even remotely raising privacy concerns regarding myself, including anything that involves or is focused on or based on even guesses/imaginations about my RW identity. #2 Not exhibit any pattern of aggressive edits, tags and other activities that is focused on me or my work, particularly where you follow(ed) me to an article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

In response to your requests, I have noted that you have claimed on more than one ocassion to work in an industry and have edited that article. You made one of the statements on the article's talk. Me asking you to confirm no COI, when you are editing an article to add unsourced mentions of particular products and services, is not a ”privacy violation.” Neither is me asking you to confirm (which you did) that you were not inappropriately citing yourself when you do add sources. This is not the place to ask for warnings about things you are unwilling to talk about. And as for targeting you, I always focus on content (except here and user talk pages). The number of articles we overlap on is tiny compared to the number we have each edited (ever or recently). You ad hominem attacks on me personally, here and elseshere, is the only targeting going on. But again, this is not an appropriate forum to beat each other up. Novaseminary (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Those utilizing-COI fishing expeditions/attacks were not the worst of such problems, and I already gave my real world name to an oversighter and asked for a review of myself in those areas which you were using as an attack method. This was further double covered by when I said "And if you see any company-specific product or process promotion in either article specifically bring it up as such at the articles(s)." And it was triple covered on the Weld inspection article where I said many times that it is not my area of expertise or interest, that I was only doing short term rescue work there, planned to leave the article for good, and was forced to come back to it when you assaulted it. You still trying create an interrogation style conversation where it is beyond-baseless ludicrous for the welding article is beyond-disingenuous and illustrative of your clever-tactic obsessive battling which I say based on immense experience with you.

If you won't agree to the above things, even with the substitution of simply "not do" wording for "stop doing", wording, then we have more work to do here. North8000 (talk) 16:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Or, we could go 10 steps beyond that and say lets genuinely be friendly and friends, which presumably would resolve everything. North8000 (talk) 21:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

North, I have tried to be friendly from our first interactions. Take a look at what I said early in that Novaseminary talk archive you created. Go back and read what I (not other eds who agreed with me) actually wrote at the Travellers' Dream AfD, and despite being called some pretty nasty things by you, DougT, and various folks you invited to that AfD from the outset. You have consistently said terrible, personal things about me.

I have not done so to you (and I am sorry if there are examples to the contrary), and at most questioned whether your bank of knowledge and experience and employment in certain fields could lead to less objectivity; this is an encyclopedia, afterall, not a technical forum. And only because I was concerned it might affect content. (I practice what I preach, never editing anything even remotely related to my day job.)

I've tried to stick to the content. Unfortunately, we have not always seen eye-to-eye there. There is no reason for the vitriol. Everytime you have tagged me as ”obsessed”, you have been equally interested or more, otherwise our disagreements would have withered on the vine. My only interest, and the places where we have had disagreements, have been where I (rightly or wrongly) thought text you added or reinserted was promotional, otherwise POV, or OR. I feel strongly about that (otherwise the value of WP goes downhill fast).

Anyway, I say bygones.

Novaseminary (talk) 21:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to read between the lines in the best possible way rather than take and respond to all of that literally. But really don't know what you are saying/think about my "10 levels up" idea. North8000 (talk) 01:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Climate_change_alarmism

By AFD and DRV it was determined this page should be merged. A couple editors are attempting obstructionist tactics to keep the page up, despite losing the arguments art both processes.

In particular, this edit:

is basically a declaration of plans to act in bad faith.

The AFD closed with a merge result, the DRV said there was no consensus to overturn that result. At the DRV, several users engaged in attacks against the closing admin, claiming that 12 days was too early to close, and thus attacking that admin. Examples:

This is AFTER the relevant part of the AfD closure instructions ha d been pointed out to him:

Oh, my. 86** is prone to misstating other's arguments, and does so here in saying that I was "claiming that 12 days was too early to close". He has kindly pulled out my exact words; let's read them together: "The correct criterion for closing discussion is not some number of days, but whether there is consensus." How could I be any clearer? As to "thus attacking that admin" – wow, what can I say? Is it an "attack" to point out a misstep?

86** would also fault me for commenting "AFTER the relevant part of the AfD closure instructions ha d been pointed out to him". Which is nonsense. If you think that is a valid complaint, open a subsection citing specifics, and let's examine it. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

More can be seen on the talk page of the article and at the DRV, but it's clear that a small cabal of editors are determined to use any tactics to prevent any action being taken.

Users will be notified when this is up. 86.** IP (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

DmcQ, J.Johnson, and Talk:Climate change alarmism notified. 86.** IP (talk) 01:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

As I pointed out above (see Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2011 December 2#Tally of_actual votes_at Afd), JJ's argument is bizarre. He suggests that an AfD should be kept open until there is a consensus. This would (a) mean that any 'no consensus' closures were invalid, and (b) that the admin would have to assess the AfD first, and then decide whether to close it. Not only is it not the way it is done (regardless of arguments over the wording of policy - though I think current practice is in accord with this), but it would make a nonsense of the whole procedure to have repeated assessments of 'consensus', by (presumably) multiple admins, with the first to call 'consensus' making the decision, regardless of how other admins saw it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yet another misstatment. I never suggested "that an AfD should be kept open until there is consensus." My "suggestion" (based on the cited policy) is that if there is no consensus when the AfD is closed, there is no consensus. And that is was a misinterpretation to claim otherwise. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

An action to improve the encyclopaedia is not an act in bad faith. I am not a part of any cabal and I give no favours to anyone. And that includes admins here too if you don't do your job properly. So the admins decided to go with the people who wanted a merge even though they gave no arguments why they wanted it and didn't even look like they investigated the place they said the merge should be to. And now this person just sticks the stuff somewhere else unrelated because they've found it really shouldn't have gone where they said. Well it doesn't go in the other place either as would be obvious if they looked at it for a few minutes instead. If they didn't have ants in their pants to merge it some where anywhere else and remove the article perhaps they could do something useful with it instead. Dmcq (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You're sseriously claiming that the section about "...alarmist language is frequently employed by newspapers, popular magazine and in campaign literature put out by government and environment groups..." isn't appropriate discussion for Media coverage of climate change? 86.** IP (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I most certainly am. The article media coverage of climate change is about how the media cover it. For instance how they try to be even handed by bringing in a representative of both sides so giving an impression of parity between arguments. It's about how the media in different countries differ in their coverage. It has section headings like nattive distorions and factual distortions. It is not about what government and campaign groups say. And it is most definitely not about what the Koch crowd do or meteorologists wrote never mind military contracytors or think thanks like you just stuck in the media article. May I also point out that you violated the 3rr rule and now have the result of your third violation protected by an administrator? I realize it is always the wrong version which is kept but could someone discuss 3rr with this editor please rather than go along with his accusation of bad faith against me and the silly merges to wrong articles? Dmcq (talk) 03:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

If the decision was to merge, the 'wrong version' is one that doesn't do this. Can I ask an admin to do the obvious here, and close this, now that the article has been redirected? A decision has been made, and the previous history of the article is easy enough to access for anyone actually prepared to conform with the decision, and merge whatever useful content there is in the article. If it has been decided that the article isn't valid, it isn't, and arguments that there is nowhere for content to go are irrelevant. Ignoring decisions because you don't like the consequences of complying with them is hardly justifiable... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Weel that would be nice if the original closing admin had checked the arguments properly. Or if the review was an actual review. However it checked if the original decision was 'egregiously wrong'. I didn't want it to be a decision about admins. I wanted it to be review of the points in the deletion debate by someone else. But it was decided they hadn't acted egregiously wrongly so it is a case of admins covering each others asses. And it is right to create a stink about people doing that rather than checking what is best for the articles in the encyclopaedia. Dmcq (talk) 04:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

(Just to note, I haven't violated 3RR; though in the confusion of today's edits I did come close, for which I apologise.) 86.** IP (talk) 03:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Count them

• (cur | prev) 00:46, 11 December 2011‎ 86.** IP (talk | contribs)‎ (46 bytes) (Undid revision 465206328 by KimDabelsteinPetersen (talk) Undo bad-ffaith action)
• (cur | prev) 00:42, 11 December 2011‎ KimDabelsteinPetersen (talk | contribs)‎ (16,998 bytes) (Reverted to revision 465205436 by KimDabelsteinPetersen: rv. Please engage in discussion before doing things. You *have* been bold - now discuss!. using TW)
• (cur | prev) 00:38, 11 December 2011‎ 86.** IP (talk | contribs)‎ (46 bytes) (Undid revision 465205436 by KimDabelsteinPetersen (talk) DRV. You lost it. YTour views did nbot hold sway. You are not arbiter)
• (cur | prev) 00:34, 11 December 2011‎ KimDabelsteinPetersen (talk | contribs)‎ (16,998 bytes) (Reverted to revision 465197073 by Dmcq: rv Please do not go unilateral here. Discussions are active on both talk pages.. using TW)
• (cur | prev) 00:32, 11 December 2011‎ 86.** IP (talk | contribs)‎ (46 bytes) (Undid revision 465197073 by Dmcq (talk) Fix to correct link)
• (cur | prev) 23:33, 10 December 2011‎ Dmcq (talk | contribs)‎ (16,998 bytes) (Reverted to revision 465149117 by William M. Connolley: Topic is not dealt with at the indicated place. (TW))

Certainly seems like three to me. Dmcq (talk) 04:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you're allowed three. Read WP:3RR. You aren't allowed more than three. 86.** IP (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I guess your other edit removing everything at

• (cur | prev) 17:26, 10 December 2011‎ 86.** IP (talk | contribs)‎ (46 bytes) (←Redirected page to Media coverage of climate change)

just counts as a normal edit then. Well even if one is allowed to remove stuff four times with impunity it isn't something I'll be going in for. Dmcq (talk) 04:28, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

More simultaneous postings here and on WP:FTN by 86.** IP. Plus this. Hmm. Mathsci (talk) 03:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The post on FTN is on a different subject (asking for help with sourcing); it has nothing to do with this ANI report. I don't know what on earth you're getting at with the homeopathy thing. If you want to accuse me of something, do it, don't make these vague insinuations that innocent behaviour is somehow evil. 86.** IP (talk) 03:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, we all know who Mr. 86 is. But so far as I am aware none of his previous accounts are under sanction, nor has there been any double-voting or other misuse of the alternate accounts. I'm willing to be corrected if there's evidence to the contrary. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find I only edit under this account. 86.** IP (talk) 04:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of that statement as parsed in a strict grammatical sense. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:07, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You were advised before not to post on multiple noticeboards, no matter whether the issues are slightly different. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, you're trying to claim I can't ask for sourcing help on FTN, when I ask about this here? That's not "slightly" different, Mathsci. 86.** IP (talk) 04:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The advice concerns the frequency with which you post about climate change articles. No administrator could help you here. And also your editorializing of others' comments is quite unhelpful. Could you please calm down? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

...You know what. Every sentence of that is wrong, but it's not at all clear what any of your points are meant to be, if you have any, and it's not worth dealing with you. Please don't talk to me again. If the rest of us can get back on topic: Dmcq has announced his intent to not be bound by admin rulings on issues that he dislikes. What should be done? 86.** IP (talk) 04:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry, 86.** IP, you can request me not to edit on your talk page, but not here. As I wrote, the frequency with which you open topics on climate change articles is unhelpful. It is perhaps not the right way of going about things. Mathsci (talk) 04:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Well I'd like to have had a proper review of the decision at the AfD rather than a check that the closer was not 'egregiously wrong' or that it was numerically close so there is no consensus to overturn the decision. There's so many things wrong with that. There were twelve editors who said keep in the AfD and 12 who said delete or merge. That should have been no consensus especially given the weakness of the delete/merge arguments which said things like it was a fork without pointing to content tat was forked and said to merge to a place which really wasn't suitable. It was turned into a decision about admins rather than about the article so here it is for admins to look at the results of their handiwork. If something is called a review it should do a review. It should not act like a court which needs overwhelming evidence before overturning a verdict of an admin. I think I read something about Misplaced Pages not being a moot court? Dmcq (talk) 04:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. 12-12 does not automatically equal "no consensus". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:28, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I never said anything about democracy. I said the closer didn't check what was said properly and should have for something close like that. And the review was a sham just to see if the reviewer had done something 'egregiously wrong' rather than to have a second opinion by someone else. Have a look at the AfD at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Climate_change_alarmism_(2nd_nomination) and the review at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2011_December_2#Climate_change_alarmism_.282nd_nomination.29. Though I guess that's too much to ask for here. Do any admins do anything useful about content policy or are they quite content to have any amount of silliness and policy violation provided it is done with civility? Dmcq (talk) 10:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Note: The AfD was closed and the DRV did not overturn the close. At this point those who opposed the AfD close should simply stop fighting old battles and simmer down for a spell with a nice cup of tea. IT is continuing this sort of battle which causes the most grief on Misplaced Pages. And I think/fear ArbCom might step in and reinstate the sanctions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Have nice cup of tea?? Perhaps you should convince 86** to "simply stop fighting and simmer down", to stop trying to prosecute us with his undocumented (and quite spurious) accusations of a "cabal" and bad faith, his continuing misstatements and ridiculous misinterpretations? (Just look at his opening statement in the next section.) I am amused by his apparent view that "AFTER" he made an assertion and waved his hands about a bit – without actually pointing to or quoting any specific text – my alleged failure to shutup and sit down was so egregious as to warrant a complaint to this noticeboard. I am not amused by his continuing uncivil behavior. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Dmcq

dmcq (talk · contribs) Dmcq has reaffirmed his plans to continue using edit warring to try and overturn the AfD by force. - and that after he was told to stop refighting old battles here and on the talk page of where he's fighting. I suggest he be blocked, or at least wwarned that if he continues, he will be blocked. When an editor announces he is not going to be bound by Misplaced Pages's decisions and rules, as he did there and here, that user is not acting in good faith, and no amount of discussion will help. 86.** IP (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Ridiculous. I have a pretty good imagination, but I can hardly imagine what kind of offset or twisting is needed extract such interpretations from the statement cited. 86**'s decoding key must be seriously corrupted. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Safa Khulusi - a review of my actions please

I came across what appeared to be an edit war at Safa Khulusi. It looked like one side (User:David Dawoud Cowan) thought that the large quote in the section Safa Khulusi#Shakespeare theory had undue weight and was removing it, and the other side (User:Paul Barlow) saw that as censorship and was reverting the removal. At that point, it looked like a content dispute to me, and not blatant vandalism, and I thought both viewpoints may have merit (A quote may well be justified, but it was also longer than the rest of the section). I gave both parties a warning - Paul Barlow did not appear pleased with it, but I felt I had to give exactly the same warning to both to be fair. (I accept I could have left a hand-crafted message with both).

Both ignored the warnings and continued to edit-war to include the whole quote/remove it entirely, without either side seeking consensus or compromise. I felt I had little alternative but to impose a block of 24 hours on both - I thought the essential first step was to halt the edit-war. User:Folantin expressed disapproval of my block. (And at that point, after I had suggested an SPI report, Paul Barlow explicitly stated that the issue was not one of sockpuppetry, and so subsequent claims by others that he was merely dealing with a sock would not appear to be valid).

Paul Barlow requested unblock, but it was declined by User:FisherQueen.

As soon as the blocks expired, both sides resumed the edit war, with both Paul Barlow and Folantin on one side, and this time User:Simon Salousy (who may be an SPA/sock - I don't know) on the other. Paul Barlow did explain his position on Talk page, but resumed his part in the edit-war just a few hours later - Simon Salousy had not engaged in Talk page discussion, but had used edit-summaries, so he wasn't being entirely uncommunicative, and consensus on the content had not been reached.

I felt I had little alternative but to impose blocks again, and blocked all three for 48 hours. (I did not issue Folantin with a warning first, as it was clear that they were fully aware of the edit war and the previous sanctions, and appeared to me to be deliberately continuing the edit-war. Folantin went on to claim a right to 3RR, and that I was involved and should not block - which I thought at the time was an attempt at gaming the system.

Folantin appealed the block, and User:Antandrus accepted the request and unblocked - and left me a message on my Talk page. (Which is fine - I openly say that anyone can revert my admin actions if they think I'm wrong, and I just request that I'm informed). Antandrus also implied that I should unblock Paul Barlow too.

I'd appreciate your thoughts, and if you think I was wrong or heavy-handed, I'll be happy to apologise and make whatever amends I can.

I will now go and inform the people mentioned here - I also think I need to unblock Paul Barlow (and Simon Salousy, so be even-handed) so he can freely talk here. But the edit-war still needs to be stopped, so I will temporarily protect the article. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• My initial take on this is that a protection might have caused less drama than blocks. However I have no problem with blocking contributors who exceed 3RR when BLP is not an issue and they are aware of the rule. --John (talk) 11:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  With hindsight, yes, it would, but I really wasn't expecting such drama to unfold - and I've always thought that blocking was the preferred option when the protagonists are few and easy to identify -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  Yes, and I am not suggesting that you have done anything wrong as such. Your interpretation of policy has some merit. But by posting here and asking for review, you are implying that you are prepared to learn from what happened and perhaps do it differently the next time. Again, there is no problem with blocking for 3RR (and I weakly disagree with what Antandrus said at your talk on the subject) but it would perhaps have created a better outcome with less hassle if you had protected rather than blocked. Kudos for bringing your action here to seek feedback, I should have said that the first time. --John (talk) 12:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  Yes indeed, I am grateful for your suggestions. It does sound like more care in deciding the best way to stop an edit war would be better, including a deeper look into the protagonists' longer term backgrounds -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• I haven't had time to review the back-and-forth in any depth, but it appears to me that User:Paul Barlow exercised due diligence by seeking engagement on the discussion page. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Automatic 3RR blocks are standard for non-BLP, non-obvious-vandalism cases. So there is no problem with that. But in the case of blocks for general edit warring I would like to see more admin discretion used. When both positions are reasonable, and one side is in the majority and trying to discuss on the talk page while the other isn't, then symmetric blocks aren't really appropriate. I think it would have been best to protect the article on the version that encourages communication (per IAR and what I am sure is common practice, even though nobody will admit it), or to just wait for the single editor to break 3RR and then warn the others. Hans Adler 14:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  After taking a closer look, I think you should have spotted that SPA David Dawoud Cowan (talk · contribs) is an obvious sock of SPA Simon Salousy (talk · contribs), and simply blocked both accounts for the socking (one indefinitely). I have made a report at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Simon Salousy. Hans Adler 15:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  Well, Paul Barlow explicitly stated that socking was *not* the issue. But I do appreciate your taking the time to offer your thoughts, thanks. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  It doesn't matter what Paul Barlow stated. He has more than twice your experience, but purely as a content-oriented editor, and doesn't seem to have much experience with POV conflicts and edit wars. As an admin who is about to block people he doesn't know well, you should look at their contributions first. Then it could not have escaped your notice that these SPAs with 13 and 7 edits, respectively, are obviously operated by the same person. Hans Adler 19:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  Yes, I appreciate that, and I do not mean to argue it as a justification for not investigating further - I'm just explaining that it is the (possibly flawed) reason why I did not pursue that angle -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  Ah, sorry for not immediately getting that. I didn't mean to rub it in. Hans Adler 20:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• You would probably have been better to protect the page if you weren't prepared to sanction the SPAs. The problem was that the new SPAs simply kept deleting the content using the same rationale, which was not based on any Misplaced Pages policy (in other words WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT). There was also the obvious WP:DUCK issue that these were sock or meat puppets of one another and it was extremely likely they had a conflict of interest. I made only two edits to the page, both with edit summaries citing valid policies. That is nothing like edit warring in my book. I felt you dealt with Paul, an experienced writer with over 55,000 edits, in a heavyhanded manner which didn't assume good faith, and that also annoyed me. However, my edits to the page were motivated by protecting sourced content against unreasonable censorship. Paul attempted to engage the SPAs in dialogue. They were not prepared to listen. You would have done better to try to get them to enter into dialogue and one way would have been protection of the page. A bit more tact, clearer communication on your part and this might have been solved with less drama. I don't bear you any personal ill will as a result of this incident, it's only a website after all. I just wish you had played things a bit differently. Paul and I are long-standing editors who have dealt with some of the more difficult areas of Misplaced Pages (though not often in collaboration). I'm not asking for a completely free hand, but I think we deserved a bit more of the benefit of the doubt.--Folantin (talk) 15:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  Hi, and thanks for your thoughts - I agree now that page protection would have been preferable in this case, and I should have approached it more sensitively. On the subject of good faith, I never suspected anything else from Paul. It just seemed apparent to me that he was going about things the wrong way - even a well-meaning edit war is a bad one and has to be stopped. (And on the same subject, do you honestly believe that "I suppose this is just revenge for calling you a 'jobsworth'", "an admin with a personal vendetta", and "Off you go to IRC to get your buddies to endorse this for you" were shining examples of good faith on your part? I'm not bothered by them, but just sayin') -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Maybe you weren't bothered by Folantin's comments, but I sure was. Acting like a jerk seems hardly the way to resolve an editorial dispute. Boing has been the utter model of politeness and civility in this matter - indeed, he appears to possess precisely the sort of level-headedness that the mop requires. Quite a few admins could learn a thing or two from his behavior. Not pointing fingers, of course.

    That said, Hans correctly pointed out that protecting the page and warning both (or all three, once Folantin caped on in to 'save the day') to head to the talk page and some sort of informal mediation of the matter would have caused a lot less drama. Blocks and block logs are forever in the user history, so they should be handed out with care. Boing has pointed out repeatedly that he suggested to both Folantin and Paul Barlow that they submit a SPI regarding their suspicions of the third user; both, however, chose to ignore them, preferring to edit war and snide insinuation to actual work. Kudos to Hans for actually doing what neither accusing editor took the trouble to do by actually filing the SPI.

    The thing that bothers me about all of this is that Folantin and Paul Barlow are going to see their unblock or the results of the SPI (if it is in fact the same user) as legitimization of their behavior. I think it vital they do not walk away feeling they were right to act the way they were. They were edit-warring and tossing accusations about a user without bothering to do the legwork to support them. We block people for that sort of crap, period. Hopefully, the next time they encounter this sort of situation they will act differently, though judging from the actions of the involved users (returning to warring immediately after coming off a block for same), I have little hope for that. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:54, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

    Different people are bothered by different things. E.g. I am personally more concerned when I see a notorious fringer grave dancing on the talk page of what appears to be a serious content producer, and when the grave dancer subsequently comes to ANI to agitate. Hans Adler 19:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

    Indeed, Hans. But I'm sure Jack's comments have nothing to do with his long-term grudge against Paul Barlow and this sudden interest in the pronunciation of J. Thomas Looney's name is purely coincidental and in no way any kind of stalking. --Folantin (talk) 10:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

    I have not been contributing for the past day, since I have been away. I've no idea what is meant by the assertion that I "resumed edit warring". I have repeatedly attempted to engage the editor Simon Salousy in dialogue. With regard to "Boing"'s statement that I said it was not an issue of socking - that was when I believed that the editor had abandoned one account and started another. There may be many reasons for that of course. As a new editor he may have forgotten how to log on to the old account, or mislaid his password. However, as soon as activity on the old account resumed, it, of course, became apparent that socking was indeed the issue. It was absolutely obvious that this editor had no intention of following any form of resolution procedures. There was no dialogue. I had put a very polite message on his page. Yes, I subsequently reverted his edits. That's normal procedure when an editor is behavaing like a vandal. I did not get anywhere near 3RR and I added repeated explanations on the article talk page. I am really at a loss to understand what I am supposed to have done wrong. As for the ever endearingly disingenuous Jack Sebastian, I can only endorse what Folantin said. Paul B (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Paul. You and the other editor had been repeatedly reverting each other over a period of at least several days, and even if you had not specifically violated 3RR (which is not an entitlement anyway) that did not mean it was not edit-warring. I also don't think the vandalism exception applies, as the other guy's edits were not blatant vandalism - he just had a different opinion on the content to you, and what looked like a complaint of overdue weight by use of a large quotation is not automatically without merit. He was not discussing it on the Talk page, that's true (though he was using edit summaries, so there was at least some input to go on), but that also does not mean that continuing the revert/revert/revert/revert was the right way to proceed - on either part.

I think what you needed was an actual consensus on the Talk page (ie more than just you explaining your preferred version). As it was, there actually wasn't a consensus, just your comments on the Talk page and his in the edit summaries. And I thought you both had to be stopped from warring until such a consensus had actually been found - help from a related project, for example, would have been a way forward, where someone else could have examined your Talk page comments and the other editor's edit summaries, and added to the consensus. Or help from this forum if you thought the other guy was violating policies.

Anyway, I felt I had to be even-handed, so I gave you both exactly the same warning (and with hindsight, I made a poor choice - I should have used a personal message rather than a template). But as you both ignored my warnings to stop edit-warring and immediately continued, I felt you had to be forcibly stopped (again with hindsight, protecting the article would probably have been better in this case). And after the initial blocks had expired, you both carried on as you had left off. The bottom line as far as policy goes is that being right does not allow you to edit war, and being the only party in the dispute to use the Talk page does not allow you to edit war - you should have reported the other editor for edit-warring, or sock-puppetry, or perhaps general disruption here at AN/I, and then with community support we could have blocked only him (had that been the outcome).

But as I say, an edit-war that's been simmering for days simply has to be stopped, and I believe I was right to stop it - but after the feedback I've had here (for which I thank everyone), I now believe I should have found a better way to stop it.

Going forward, what I think is the best way is to continue the Talk page discussion and get that consensus (and from what I've seen so far, it isn't 100% obvious that one side is 100% right here), and once that has been achieved, editors reverting against it can be blocked. (Oh, and I'd suggest you don't revert any new edits by the same editor until consensus has been achieved, just report him for edit-warring if he does it again, and leave it for the proper channels to conclude). Any bad edits can be cleaned up in due course - there's no urgency to fix things immediately. And, erm, sorry for rambling more than I intended -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course there were only my comments on tne talk page, because he wasn't adding any, and it was increasingly obvious that he had no intention of doing so. I find your argument really rather absurdist. I am supposed to wait for a "consensus on the talk page" with an editor who has no intention of leaving any messages on the talk page or his own user page, despite being repeatedly asked to do so. Meanwhile his edits should remain while I just twiddle my thumbs like Vladimir and Estragon, eternally expecting him to turn up. That's a recipe for rewarding uncooperative editors. Paul B (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm suggesting that you should have sought input from third parties to review the content dispute and help build consensus, and sought help from appropriate forums if you thought the other editor was acting improperly. Or do you really, honestly, believe that a non-stop revert war was the right way to solve the dispute? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to an admin who needs to stop edit warring—quick action is all that can be expected in most cases. While I agree that the edit warring was clear and some other remedy should have been employed (e.g. asking for opinions at a relevant WikiProject), it is also clear that our ultimate objective is to develop content, so special efforts are required when dealing with a very prolific and valuable content creator (e.g. enter into lengthy user talk page dialog to explain the situation and the alternatives, or if short of time, protect the article and post a quick article talk page explanation). Paul B has created hundreds of quality articles, and he created Karl Bleibtreu four hours before the block. Being a content creator does not provide an edit-warring exemption, but I suggest it does warrant extra effort from admins. Johnuniq (talk) 03:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

User Orwiad10

Orwiad10 (talk · contribs · logs) has made exactly ten trivial changes to articles by adding invisible characters (such as %C2%AD) to them. I noticed only because by doing so he broke a link at East Germany. I'm reverting all these supposedly trivial changes. I'm not familiar enough with the list of banned users: does this look like anyone any of you recognize? I'll be notifying the editor as soon as I post here. --NellieBly (talk) 17:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Should part of the above comment be removed as per WP:BEANS? No sense handing the car keys to someone looking for a joyride. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. --NellieBly (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The edits are suspicious. The character inserted was a soft hyphen (the character is hex 00AD which is represented as C2 AD in UTF-8). Johnuniq (talk) 01:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Trying to become autoconfirmed possibly? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what was redacted from the OP per WP:BEANS... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit war at Occupy Marines

Sorry I don't have time to deal with this myself - such time as I'm donating today is going to another project, and I'm simultaneously dealing with some real world stuff. Occupy Marines seems to be the site for an edit war: 72.152.12.11 (talk), 77.100.209.249 (talk) and JohnValeron (talk · contribs) are caught up, with JohnVaeron apparently having ownership issues whilst others try and clean up this article, which is in a sorry state. Blood Red Sandman 20:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• The article certainly is in a truly dreadful state! JohnVaeron appears ready to edit-war over the inclusion of a needless section, sourced to a web page mirror of a tweet, urging people to believe the so-called Occupy Marines "work with Misplaced Pages"—it's a dreadful circular reference "trick" to try and give this vanity page an air of authority and encourage people to protect and expand it on Misplaced Pages. --77.100.209.249 (talk) 20:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Geez, that thing is a bad joke of an ad campaign masquerading as a genuine Misplaced Pages article. "...an online entity of unknown origin and uncorroborated membership that materialized a month after the inception of Occupy Wall Street" ? Really? Tarc (talk) 20:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
    • I think a bit of both. Same with the Press Release posted there 72.152.12.11 (talk) 20:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Is this even notable? There seems to be almost no independent coverage of "OccupyMarines", aside from brief mentions of the existence of the facebook group in relation to the Occupy Oakland incident. The article itself seems to rely primarily on first party sources, which only exacerbates the problem of notability. Resolute 20:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think it's notable, and I pulled the references to their Facebook page which has a total of 41 fans. Plus the interview conducted with, and by, Occupy Marines. --77.100.209.249 (talk) 20:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It's a shame that you guys are prepared to jump on the bandwagon here making me a scapegoat, obviously without even bothering to read the lengthy Discussion page on the article in question. If you'd done your homework before rushing to judgment, you'd have learned that this page was nominated for deletion on November 23, 2011—2½ weeks ago. The result of the discussion, in which I was not involved, was Keep. It's not because of me that this page was retained. I've simply been trying to improve it.

Moreover, if you'd care to check the revision history of this Misplaced Pages article, you'd find multiple edits in November by a user identified as OccupyMARINES, suggesting that entity was allowed to contribute repeatedly to an article about itself—again, long before I got involved in this.

But, no, none of you has time to actually dig into the background here. You're too busy reporting me to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. JohnValeron (talk) 20:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Er, some people have an eye for legitimate content, and this does not fit the bill. To-date, I see you making little-to-no effort to improve the article in any way, shape or form. You've defended the inclusion of what others agreed is navel-gazing and inappropriate nonsense. And, you were going to edit-war over the sane and reasonable removal of primarily-sourced drivel. That is not working to improve the article, that's protecting the bottom one percent of Misplaced Pages content. --77.100.209.249 (talk) 21:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The reason you see me making "little-to-no effort to improve the article" is because you haven't looked at the history of my contributions. You weren't even involved in this until a couple of hours ago. Like I said, rush to judgment without doing your homework. JohnValeron (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The fact of past edits is irrelevant. We're dealing with the article AS-IS. What happened in the past is not germane to the issue at hand now, which is the CURRENT state of the page. The CURRENT state of the page is that it's almost entirely self-referential, with no clear basis to establish notability. In fact, that we're 'newcomers' to the page means we have no investiture of effort into it, and so can look at it objectively, with a NPOV. What we can see is that there's little but self-referential guff and no real substance. And so, perhaps you can see that there is no need for a Misplaced Pages page, because there's nothing there to have one of, YET. Now, if the group becomes notable for something, then yes it may be deserving of a page then, but right now, the most notable thing about it is that it exists, and existentialism isn't a basis for wikipedia articles. All I have to ask is, name ONE notable thing this group has done. 72.152.12.11 (talk) 21:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

My past contributions to this article are relevant because the issue you raise—that of removing the article due to lack of notability—was decided 2½ weeks ago. Faced with that fait accompli, and respecting the collective judgment of Misplaced Pages, I resigned myself to improving the article, not refighting battles already decided. If those skirmishes are now to be re-waged by you and the others on this thread, I wish you luck. But until the dispute is resolved, I'll continue doing my best to improve the article. JohnValeron (talk) 21:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

So, why were you prepared to repeatedly revert a sane removal of irrelevant content? My gut-instincts tell me the Occupy Marines website is a "tentacle" of Anonymous, and—content wise—you were, possibly still are, defending the indefensible.

This is why I infrequently edit Misplaced Pages; some people would rather talk the hind legs off a donkey than be a little ruthless and slash out obvious self-promotion. The article is a confusion of weasel-words, overloaded with cherry-picked quotes that appear all-too-often to have been swallowed by naive, lazy, journalists, or cribbed from the Occupy Marines website In Their Idiotic Up-Style Crazy Talk.

By all means, improve the article; at present, that would involve slashing at least 50% of the content, removing the confusion of weasel-words, eliminating the Up-Style Idiocy, and improving the grammar beyond kindergarten level. These faults may well not be yours, but you have repeatedly defended the offending content.

I doubt, once an honest, neutral cleanup of this article is complete, there would remain anything that gives it sufficient import, or notability, to remain on Misplaced Pages. --77.100.209.249 (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I concede that, as a Misplaced Pages editor, I am not as "ruthless" as you say you are. I'd rather work for consensus with other editors. My reversions earlier today resulted from not understanding why you removed entire sections of the article without explanation. Once you did explain it on the Discussion page, I stopped reverting. I can certainly live with the revised article as it now stands. I await Misplaced Pages's collective decision on the three issues outstanding on this article: neutrality; notability; and sources too close to the subject. I look forward to participating in that debate. I hope you will find time to join us. But it's a debate that ought to take place on the article's Discussion page, not here at Editing Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. JohnValeron (talk) 22:12, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Delete? For what it's worth, I'm tempted to open another deletion discussion. The last one did indeed end in keep but after reading over it a lot of the reasoning from those !voting keep was pretty anaemic, and based largely on invalid criteria such as "...an article about an organization which indubitably exists" and (I kid you not) "...20,000 people like it ". Comments from uninvolved editors? Basalisk ⁄_berate 23:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm with you on this Basalisk. 77.100.209.249 has done some further source research in the discussion page of the article and it appears that the sources are very very thin for any sort of notability. I realise I'm an 'invovled editor', but still. 72.152.12.11 (talk) 01:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yesssss, I'm an evil deletionist (/sarcasm). I'd readily support deletion, but prefer not to nominate under an IP; and, I believe I've reasonably made the case on the article talk page. This article was—seemingly—brought to Misplaced Pages by Henry Trawlins, Anonymous member 9,000.

I'll freely admit I was asked to look at this, but was given absolutely zero direction as to keep or kill; it was atrociously written, contained huge swathes of original research and propagandistic puffery. Perhaps common sense (which is rather uncommon) might prevail in a new VfD. --77.100.209.249 (talk) 01:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

77.100.209.249, you write: "This article was—seemingly—brought to Misplaced Pages by Henry Trawlins, Anonymous member 9,000." According to its history, the article was created on Nov. 20 by user Nowa. If you have information to support your charge that Nowa is a troll and member of Anonymous, please report it to the proper Misplaced Pages authorities. Otherwise it looks like nothing more than reckless insinuation on your part, and if so is quite unfair. JohnValeron (talk) 05:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Grow a sense of humour, John; you'll live longer. Thankfully, someone has re-nominated this silliness for deletion—perhaps saner heads will prevail this time, despite your canvassing. If, as you say in the Vfd and below, you were "notifying those involved in the discussion re deleting this article 2½ weeks ago", you also notified those who voted for deletion? --77.100.209.249 (talk) 11:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

AfD page not created

I don't know how to do it manually, and I don't know what reason the nominator gave. Phearson (talk) 02:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I was just in the process of creating the page. The AfD can be found here. Basalisk ⁄_berate 03:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

AfD canvassing

User:JohnValeron would appear to have gone on a Canvassing spree with relation to the new AfD - see Special:Contributions/JohnValeron. Mtking 06:08, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:CANVAS: "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus."

That's exactly what I did. I simply notified those involved in the discussion re deleting this article only 2½ weeks ago that it was again under the gun. I made no attempt to influence anyone as to how they should participate in this new debate. As it happens, in my notifications I overlooked both of those who voted last time to Delete, for which I apologize. Please do not assume bad faith. It was an honest mistake. JohnValeron (talk) 09:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

For the record, it should be noted that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Occupy_Marines_%282nd_nomination%29 user Dream Focus, who was allegedly "canvassed," removed the accusatory template inserted by user Mtking, commenting in revision history: "There is no possible justification to have that there." Nevertheless, user Mtking reverted Dream Focus's change, insistently assuming my bad faith even though I've repeatedly confessed my mistake and apologized. User Mtking is waging a vendetta against me out of spiteful pettiness, and will not be deterred even by those who he falsely claims have been victimized. JohnValeron (talk) 10:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• It certainly looks like canvassing to me; working systematically through a list of all those who !voted keep before (even though most were repeating WP:ITEXISTS), but not contacting those who thought the article should be deleted. That wasn't about broadening participation; it was votestacking. bobrayner (talk) 11:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

My intent was to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus. How on earth can you pretend to know that my intent was otherwise? JohnValeron (talk) 12:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• • It's also unfortunate that IP addresses arrive to paste a keep vote as their first edit. Hardly surprising, though, because there has been blatant offsite coordination in addition to the onsite canvassing - just look at the Facebook group. bobrayner (talk) 11:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
• We can deal with this. I'm going to be watching the AfD closely. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy and I will not allow the closing admin to close as "keep" this time if the keep arguments are just WP:ITEXISTS. Basalisk ⁄_berate 12:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Basalisk, if it's a foregone conclusion that the article will be deleted, why waste everyone's time and energy with such a silly thing as discussion? Simply close the AfD now and be done with it. JohnValeron (talk) 12:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It is not "a foregone conclusion that the article will be deleted"; however, it would be more reasonable, and less childish, to interpret Basalisk's comment as "it will not be closed as keep on the basis of vote-stacking arguments based on WP:ITEXISTS." That such is the only real argument put forward to-date, and the article fails to really meet any other criteria, is likely to be deleted. --77.100.209.249 (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Return to subject at hand

Practically all discussion on this thread—under its initial heading "Edit war at Occupy Marines" and subheadings "AfD page not created" and "AfD canvassing"—is about the legitimacy of the article Occupy Marines and how its second AfD within 2½ weeks has been conducted, not about Blood Red Sandman's original, unsubstantiated allegation of an "Edit war."

It's telling that after registering his phony charge, Blood Red Sandman ran away from it post haste, claiming "Sorry I don't have time to deal with this myself." In the ensuing 24+ hours, Blood Red Sandman has not seen fit to return to this forum and give us the benefit of his unquestioned wisdom on a matter that purportedly so concerned him that he was compelled to introduce it here.

It's also worth noting that, even though Blood Red Sandman complained that the article Occupy Marines "is in a sorry state," he himself has contributed exactly nothing to either the editing or discussion page of said article. No doubt that's because he's so pressed for time.

I suggest that this thread return to the subject at hand, which is "Edit war at Occupy Marines," and suspend irrelevant digressions. In other words, put up or shut up, all ye sanctimonious Wikipedians. JohnValeron (talk) 02:28, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Kwamikagami move warring again

User:Kwamikagami is move warring again. This time on the articles: P'urhépecha language and P'urhépecha people. I tried to make him discuss and selfrevert pending discussion per BRD here and at the talkpage. He just reverted the move again. Some admin please move the article back and give him a warning or a block for this continuedly disruptive move warring behavior. Evidence for previous discussions of the same behavior here: ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I did not "move war" at P'urhépecha people, and I did not "revert again" at P'urhépecha language. There had been no prior discussion on moving to P'urhépecha as you claimed on my talk page. The COMMONNAME convention you cite supports Tarascan, and even if we were to go with the autonym, it would be Purepecha, not P'urhépecha. — kwami (talk) 20:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I contested your move and moved it back - you reverted in violation of BRD. That is move warring and you do it all the time and now it has got to have a consequence. I am sorry to say that you obviously don't have the expertise to know what is the commonname here. Move the article back where it was, get consensus for the move then move,. Thats how we work here. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

COMMONNAME is decided by common usage. You're not even accepting linguistic sources if you don't feel they're specialized enough. P'urhépecha (or perhaps Purepecha, which appears to be the more common form) may get there eventually, but it's not there yet. — kwami (talk) 21:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Old sources. In any case what is the common name is decided by consensus not by you unilaterally. You are move warring. Move the article back.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:17, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted back to the pre-move version. I don't think Kwamikagami should have moved to their preferred title again when it was dispute the first time, but while I'm not an admin, but I don't personally see the need for anything else here provided no further moves are undertaken. I agree per WP:BRD, keep the article at the original title until consensus is achieved for a new title, probably by starting a WP:RM when you're ready. Nil Einne (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• I think it is reasonable to note that Kwami has a long history of making controversial unilateral moves, and that I approached him amicably asking him to move it back pending discussion and that he refused - claiming the right to decide unilaterally what is the common name. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
• I find Kwamikagami's behaviour disturbing; for such a long-standing sysop to be engaged in this kind of move warring is surely inappropriate. A quick look at his talk page shows that this isn't the first time even this month that he's been accused of this kind of disruption. There are also a few other issues, such as this talk page where he implicitly accuses another editor of racism and bigotry, and his apparent oblivion to the edit summary "rvv" being an acronym for "reverting vandalism". Basalisk ⁄_berate 00:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

He was also blocked in October for edit warring. All from an admin of 7 years? Seriously? If he went to RfA now, I strongly suspect he would fail. Basalisk ⁄_berate 00:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Basalisk. This is a personal attack, which is never justifiable (even if the other person in the dispute is making negative assumptions, which he was). Barring an occasional exhaustion of patience, admins should be above that. Master&Expert (Talk) 10:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks

user:Ambelland has been making extreme personal attacks at Inter-Services Intelligence. He has accused me of vandalism, being biased, editing in bad faith, twice . The information he is removing I added several weeks ago after similar content had been reverted out as not reliably sourced It is well sourced and written in a neutral manner so I cannot imagine why Ambelland thinks I am being a vandal. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I've left the user a note about throwing vandalism accusations around; apart from that, perhaps you should take this to dispute resolution. Basalisk ⁄_berate 00:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi the reason I said it was vandalism is darkness removed 4 paragraphs , and has made a number of edits in bad faith . I requested Darkness to move with consensus in the page , but instead he has decided to make unilateral changes . The points you are bringing up are already discussed in the article, and are not as clear cut as you make them out to be . Whilst you have "sources " you haven not give the exact extract of what the sources say, and the points you are making are not main steam views I have not accused anyone personally , personal attacks would be me calling you a lying swine but I have not said such a thing --Ambelland (talk) 03:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• He has continued his personal attacks on the article talk page Darkness Shines (talk) 20:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Block Review requested

I would like someone to review this block I've made. I've blocked Alarbus indefinitely because I believe very strongly that he is using sockpuppets to deceive and harass a group of editors that he has been in a dispute with. He has been proven to have used several undisclosed sockpuppets in the recent past - seemingly for non-problematic reasons. However:

Last week User:Alarbus and User:Truthkeeper88 were involved in a dispute revolving around the use of colors in templates on the Ernest Hemingway pages. The dispute was rather heated. In my administrative capacity I chastised Alarbus for his confrontational behavior. Otherwise I have not been involved with Alarbus before that dispute - so I do not see myself as involved, except that I have dealt with the user in an administrative capacity before.

December 11 Truthkeeper88 (talk · contribs) and Modernist (talk · contribs) create and in the process which 186.73.132.154 promptly reverts. The IP then follows modernist to various templates reverting his edits over a minor color issue. Modernist suspects that the user is Alarbus, who is known to have a grudge against Truthkeeper88 and has a record of editwarring over template colors - he posts to my talkpage. I block the IP at 02.33 and at 02:36 Alarbus makes his first edit in 6 hours to the IP's talkpage. This makes me suspicious and when I confirm the pattern in their edit histories I decided to block Alarbus per WP:DUCK. I request some other admins review this block, to see if they are perhaps less convinced by the weird string of coincidences than I am.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I am going to bed now. I've filed a C/U request. There is also possibility that he is acting in concert with the IP for trolling purposes of course. I am happy to defer to the judgment of another admin - do what you think the evidence requires - I will not consider it wheelwarring.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

This appears to have spilled over from my talk page to SPI and now to here. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes here, or who's-trolling-who, but Alarbus (talk · contribs) appears to be  Unrelated to the IP in question here and, in fact, doesn't appear to have any additional accounts beyond those we found last week. It's possible that someone is having some fun using the IP - either to troll Alarbus or Maunus and co. - I can't tell which - Alison 04:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

If it's the IP doing the alleged stalking, and User:Alarbus has been shown to be unrelated to the IP, then it seems to me that Alarbus should be unblocked -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, I am still convinced of foul play - then either with a proxy or a meatproxy doing the trolling. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

A terribly bad block of both Alarbus and the IP - who are unrelated. The IP is clearly in Panama, and you can ask a checkuser or Alarbus himself to see that he's not there.

Maunus is an involved admin. His friendship with Ceoil led him to comment twice on last week's ANI report of Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive729#User:Ceoil and User:Truthkeeper88 which complained that Ceoil had reverted Alabus 4 times on Alarbus' own talk page in the clearest case of WP:HUSH that I've seen in some time. In the first comment, Maunus calls Alarbus' reasoned objection to removing harvard references "hassling her with irrelevant objections condescension" . Ceoil's behaviour on 3 December between 05:32 and 17:39 included 4 consecutive reversions and aiming the following invective at Alarbus: 'stupid', 'tool', 'prick', 'worthless tools and pricks', 'simple', 'ass', 'condesending prick', 'you severe judgemental prick', 'fuckwit', 'motherfucker', 'dangerously stupid', 'liar' - capping it off with an edit summary at AN/I of 'fuck off prick'. Maunus' comment on that was "I heartily commend his intentions which may have prevented wikipedia form loosing a valuable editor, although I don't condone the way in which he acted on those intentions" . So we know who are Maunus' friends. What is astonishing is that he then decided to close the ANI thread 2 hours from its start with a summary that begins "No action" . He then amends that to include "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" , and in an amazing display of forgetfulness goes on to Alarbus' talk page to harangue him about his behaviour!

Maunus clearly does not understand that from an accessibility and usability view, colours need to be sufficiently different from their backgrounds, and preferably user-changeable (i.e. not coded inline with the HTML). This is a world-wide web standard, and not unique to Misplaced Pages. If more than one editor makes that point, it only means that they know something about web design, It does not mean they are sock-puppets. Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Alarbus proves the point, despite Maunus' selective recollection of who was "editwarring".

At this point, I'd be content to see Maunus unblock and offer whatever grudging apologies he's prepared to make. I don't think that a sensible admin would dig the hole any deeper by pushing this. --RexxS (talk) 11:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not a friend of Ceoil - that comment you refer to was my first ever interaction with him. It is possible that with the comment I made him a friend - but he wasn't before. So I am not involved. Alarbus has been proved to use sockpuppets - several of which have editwarred over template issues. The IP may not be him - but I remain unconvinced. Also Note that RexxS is himself "involved" in that he took exception to my commending Ceoil for standing up in front of Alarbus harrassment of Truthkeeper last week. Like Modernist and Truthkeeper88 below me he is just here supporting a friend. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

You are involved. Your denial does not make it so, nor square up with the facts. You commented in defence of your friends at ANI, closed the report yourself (a violation of INVOLVED in itself) and then harangued the person who made the complaint. You've since tried to deny that any harassment of Alarbus took place, despite all the evidence and diffs presented, and are making 'blanket' criticisms of him with no evidence whatsoever - where are the diffs of his "harrassment of Truthkeeper last week"? They don't exist. Yes, I'm "involved" as a friend of Alarbus because he can't speak for himself here, but I'm not the one who is closing AN/I discussions or blocking one side in an argument - so what has "involved" got to do with me, other than a vain attempt to 'smear' someone who disagrees with you? As for taking exception to your commending Ceoil's behaviour, I would expect that any right-minded Wikipedian who read Ceoil's contributions of 3 December would be severely critical of your judgement in commending that. --RexxS (talk) 14:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Whether I am involved is decided by consensus - not by you saying I am and me saying I'm not. That's why I brought this for review. Ceoil is not my friend and I spoke against Alarbus at ANI because he was clearly and obviously hounding another editor. I did not at any point condone Ceoil's use of invective. You are lying and making personal attacks about me now. I would like you to stop that. Meanwhile, Alarbus' unblock request has been declined by Daniel Case (talk · contribs) - who apparently also wasn't convinced of the evidence.

No, your involvement is a matter of fact and is established by evidence. No amount of pseudo-consensus from your chums changes that evidence or the fact. "clearly and obviously hounding another editor"? Diffs please. This is AN/I and there is a policy against making unfounded accusations.

Maunus: "Ceoil stepped in to support Truthkeepers efforts against Alarbus' aggressive approach. He should be commended for this."

Diannaa: "Maunus, you can't seriously think Ceoil should be commended for this kind of behaviour."

Maunus: "I heartily commend his intentions which may have prevented wikipedia form loosing a valuable editor, although I don't condone the way in which he acted on those intentions."

Feel free to refactor the 'lying' comment above if you feel that you've stepped over a bright line. --RexxS (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I know what I said and what I did not said. And your talk about "my chums" is nauseating, why are you here again?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Did I touch a raw nerve? You know that I'm here because you made an appallingly irresponsible block of my friend, so why do you ask? "Chums" may be a cultural mistranslation: I'm British and it just means "friends", "pals", etc. --RexxS (talk) 16:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I know what the word means thank you, it is nauseating because of the hypocrisy implicit in accusing someone else of "looking out for chums" when that is the only reason you are here yourself.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The wording of WP:INVOLVED clearly requires interpretation in context; as such determination of involvement is a matter for consensus. I have not reviewed the context here in any depth so I make no comment on the appropriateness of the block. Gerardw (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

For what its worth Maunus acted in good faith. Both the IP and Alarbus had never edited at the same time; as soon as the IP was blocked, Alarbus appeared. There was a clear circumstantial case for looking into whether or not the were socks - given Alarbus's history, and both seemed to be aggressive and hostile when it comes to editing templates; seem to consider themselves to WP:OWN templates and whether or not the colors can or cannot change - which they can. The comments above underscore the recent problem of Alarbus's stalking the work of various editors last week and the animosity that was stirred up. I think Maunus acted correctly and in good faith in this case...Modernist (talk) 12:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

RexxS is also involved and I haven't posted because I'm involved. I'm off to work but will post diffs later in the day. As for Ceoil and Maunus being friends - they've never interacted as far as I know until last weekend when Maunus responded to the AN/I report posted above. I haven't interacted with Maunus for probably more than a year, although in 2009 I did do some copyediting for him. Alarbus has been edit warring on many nav templates. Anyone going through his history can find that. Diffs to follow later in the day. Maunus made a good block. Truthkeeper (talk) 12:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, Modernist, you're believing the nonsense that is being spread. And you end up repeating untruths. The IP has a short contribution history so there's not a lot to have to check, but Maunus didn't do that. Because if he had, he'd have spotted that as recently as 02:57 on 10 December 2011, the IP was editing - and so was Alarbus at the same time. I think in all fairness, you ought to take back your assertion, and accept that Maunus was a long way short of due diligence when he based his block on the timings of edits. --RexxS (talk) 14:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• I realize the Checkuser didn't prove my suspicion of foul play. But as I noted that was not the only evidence on which I based the block - rather it was behavioral evidence - which to me is highly suggestive that Alarbus may in fact be hounding a specific group of editors either through an internet proxy or by collaborating with a person in Panama. I do not buy for a second that a Panamanian editor just happened to take up an interest in Hemingway and Van Gogh templates just a week after Alarbus and Trutkeeper88's conflict and happen to disagree with the same minor issues on the same templates that Alarbus does. I brought the issue here to be reviewed because I am aware that this is a judgment call and that others may disagree. I am not swayed by disagreement from Alarbus' friends RexxS. And I cannot myself unblock Alarbus while I remain convinced that this will enable future harassment. If another admin reviews and decides to unblock I am fine with that, but my conscience does not allow me to unblock untill I am convinced that this will not cause damage to the project in the future. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the sum of the contributions by the (now blocked) IP, I note that the majority of the edits by this unregistered user are in the area of template cleanup and template deletion commentary. The majority of edits by this IP do not relate in any way to either Hemingway or Van Gogh, and the edits made to the relevant templates do not have any effect on content but correct a series of minor style errors and make them consistent with similar templates. I think everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath: there was no disruption at all with the edits, they were entirely consistent with policy, they improved the template by making it consistent with other templates throughout the project, and unregistered users are not only permitted but encouraged to improve our project. Please reconsider this block. Risker (talk) 14:22, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The block to be reviewed was not the IP's but Alarbus'. The problem was not with the IP's edits - but with the way he went straight into conflict with the same editors Alarbus have had conflicts over the same issues with. Alarbus unblock request has been declined by uninvolved admin Daniel Case. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Was Daniel Case aware of this thread? There is no link to Alarbus and the IP, either technically or by their editorial tendencies. And no - as far as I am concerned, we need to review *both* blocks, since you brought this here. Please unblock the IP. Risker (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if he was - he could have been since I mentioned the ANI thread on the talkpage. He was aware of the Checkuser results. I have unblocked the IP per your request. Please note that RexxS and Diannaa are both involved at least to the same degree I am.

For the record, I was not aware of this thread. In retrospect it may have been mentioned there, but not linked. Had I known the block was under discussion here, I might well have deferred a decision. As it was I declined based on the fact that not only had the account had previous sockpuppetry issues confirmed by a checkuser (to which I do not have access), and that the contentious behavior of the editor, behavior similar to that which led to the sockpuppetry in the first place, did not, as I said, suggest that the problem which led to the block would not soon recur. Daniel Case (talk) 18:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• I have given full explanation of my actions, and I have brought the issue here for community input. I do not believe that I have acted outside of what is expected by an admin and I believe I have acted in the community's best interest. I am not going to comment here again, and I am not going to take further administrative action in relation to Alarbus whether or not he is unblocked by someone else in the future. I leave it to the community to decide how to proceed. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Maunus, please reconsider both of these blocks. They are based on someone correcting style errors in widely used templates: for example, deliberately changing a hyperlink to be in black rather than the standard blue that all users and readers immediately recognize, and removing "bolding" markup on group headers that do not require bolding. I'm not seeing a justification for blocking *either* the IP or Alarbus for this. Risker (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not blocking either for their edits to templates, but for their unfortunate tendency to get into reverting and getting into disputes with the same editors about the same issues. You can unblock Alarbus if you wish - I will not complain or hold it against you. I will not unblock Alarbus unless some kind of new evidence convinces me that this will not lead to future disruption. I do not consider the fact that the IP and Alarbus have edited at the same time in the past to be evidence either. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to be posting once more, but I seem to have to defend my friend from multiple attacks here. Maunus, I am not asking you to be swayed by my disagreement but by my evidence. The IP and Alarbus are unrelated beyond any shadow of a doubt. Different countries, simultaneous edits, and a lack of related edits. Please understand that both Alarbus and I have been deeply involved in improving the accessibility of both lists and templates from a technical viewpoint, and we are as zealous about promoting WP:ACCESS as you and your friends are about promoting content. I commend you for defending those who have such a strong focus on improving quality content, so please do not dismiss me for defending an editor who improves the 'nuts and bolts' behind that content. Policies on accessibility abound in web design, but they enjoy common themes, such as embedding colour into CSS, not into html. It is therefore unsurprising that you may encounter more than one person who holds that view - it is a widely accepted tenet of design. Nobody has produced diffs of Alarbus harassing anybody (although his responses to Ceoil's taunts and insults were predictable), so I cannot accept your judgement on this. Revising a clearly incorrect block rationale to a different one, based on a sort of "gut feeling" that unblocking "will enable future harassment" simply demonstrates further the weakness of your judgement. Now, please, the original block reasons have been shown to be utterly spurious; two productive editors are blocked for no good reason; and your credibility is leaking away post-by-post. I'm normally a mild sort of person, and I hope not unreasonable, so I'm sorry to be so blunt with you about this, but it really is time you swallowed your pride, worked out what is right, and got on with the unblock. --RexxS (talk) 14:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

If they were embedding color at different templates, and were not being confrontational with a particular group of content editors this would not have evolved into an issue. People who improve nuts and bolts are valuable to the encyclopedia - people who use multiple accounts to incite conflicts are not - regardless of what areas they like to work in. I am not revising the block rationale - I am just saying that my conscience does not allow me to unblock. Someone else can do it of they wish. One admin reviewed the block and did not wish to. Oh and I do respect your standing up for your friend - but when you accuse me of having clouded judgment because of previous involvement the same question falls back on you - which is why I request a third party to intervene. Oh, and it is not about pride - I am proud to say that always I recognize my errors - when I am convinced that I've made one. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I can see I'm not going to convince you. I should say that both the IP and Alarbus were actually about removing spurious colours from templates, but that's a crimson clupeid. The confrontation actually only exists in the minds of a few people. Review Talk:Ernest Hemingway with a fresh mind and you'll see what I mean. I accept that I view my friends' contributions with rose-tinted spectacles, but I'm not equipped to close AN/I threads or block editors that I'm in dispute with, so it's probably less important in my case, wouldn't you agree? Let me take back the 'pride' remark, that was uncivil of me, and I apologise. --RexxS (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I was not in a dispute with Alarbus when I closed the ANI thread - or when I blocked him. If I am now it is because of those administrative actions exactly - not because I have ever taken an interest in editing templates. I am not going to take any future administrative actions against Alarbus (or anyone else). ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Risker and Boing and Rexx; Alarbus and the IP both need to be unblocked. They have overlapping edits at 02:57 to 03:02 on 10 December. They live in different countries. The Panama IP is not a proxy and cannot be in Alarbus' control. --Dianna (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and HelloAnnyong and Alison also said they were unrelated. --Dianna (talk) 15:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes they were commenting on the C/U evidence not the behavior. And you are of course at least as involved as I am.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am very involved. Alarbus and I have has much overlap on editing of templates, and I was there on Template talk:Ernest Hemingway when the edit war started. As were you. What drew you to the template talk page that day, Maunus? I can see no record of anyone informing you on your talk page that there was a problem, and asking you to comment. --Ninja Dianna (Talk) 16:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I had Truthkeeper88's talkpage on my watchlist. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense then. So your block was based solely on behaviour, and the IP's knowledge of Wiki markup, css, and the like? I am not seeing how Alarbus's time-of-day contributions fits in with Panama, as most of his edits were between 0400 UTC and 1200 UTC, which would lead you to believe he lives where? Hawaii? Japan? I can't figure it out, myself. To be honest, I think the IP could be a troll, even Grawp. --Ninja Dianna (Talk) 16:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I based it on his knowledge and interests, his known history of using multiple accounts to make similar but non-overlapping edits, and his tendency to be abrasively revert edits to his adopted templates made by content editors such as Modernist and Truthkeeper88 - that and the fact that Alarbus arrived on the scene 3 minutes after the IP was blocked - after not having edited in 6 hours. I don't pay much attention to negative CU evidence since using proxies to get around that is easy - had the CU been positive it would have been conclusive evidence of course. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading

I haven't had time to read this entire thread, but here are some diffs to show Alarbus' tendency to edit war on nav templates. I'll be adding to these as I have time:

• Hunter Thompson 4 reverts
• Ernest Hemingway 5 reverts
• Physical oceanography edit warring as One Ton Depot using WP:Deviations as a reason
• Western art movements IP edit wars using WP:Deviations as a reason
• Alabus shows bad faith when talk is initiated on Ernest Hemingay regarding citation styles for an FA with which he disagrees, ,
• Alarbus posts a very aggressive and bad faith remark to my page
• Alarbus removes olive branch from his page made in good faith,
• RexxS asks me to control Ceoil
• Unwillingly I ask another editor to tone it down . I also send email to ask him to tone it down, which he's done.
• I haven't edited any content since these events. Two nights I ago I started a page, to which Modernist added a template . 12 hours later the template was changed by the IP with the edit summary "css".
• By the way, since I'm being discussed, it would have nice for someone to notify me. What I'd like to see is Alarbus to stop the aggressive edit warring, and if all templates are to changed then the community needs to be told and preferably an RfC should be held. If one has been held, please link it. Thanks. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Maunus should have notified you, as is required. He neglected to notify Alarbus as well. Jeez. Some days I despair, I really do. --Ninja Dianna (Talk) 17:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

No I did not and no I should not. Geez some days I despair. Assholes abound.< notice the unveiled personal attack, at least I'm honest. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Maunus didn't bring up my name - RexxS did from what I can tell and you continued. We can do without the sarcasm. Thanks. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

That is not true. Maunus mentioned you in his opening post. --Ninja Dianna (Talk) 17:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

You don't have to notify everyone who is mentioned- especially not in a block review you moron.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Maunus left a message for Alarbus: . But that's entirely beside the point, the point is the behavior shown in the diffs above. I'll be leaving a message for Risker as well. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Checkuser is not magical. It cannot detect ephemeral open proxies, nor VPNs. Subject to that caveat, if Alarbus or the IP did something that warrants a block, so be it. Otherwise, I think that absent stronger evidence linking the accounts, we ought to only allow accounts to be blocked for their own behavior. It is easy for any troll to impersonate an editor in conflict and attempt to ruin their reputation by posing as a sockpuppet. Jehochman 17:15, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• I am hereby requesting to be blocked for at least a month as a preventive measure as I am becoming increasingly incivil.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Last time I checked, we didn't do self-requested blocks. If you want a break from wikistress, just edit your raw watchlist and delete everything. Then start editing something else. Jehochman 17:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Well fuck you very much then.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Why are you so upset? Jehochman 17:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Just do it man. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

He's upset for exactly the reason I've been upset. No one has bothered to look at the aggressive (shall we say prickish) behavior that Alarbus has shown, and the coincidence of the IP is a very great coincidence indeed. Furthermore this event has gone very far to pushing a female content editor with subject expertise out of the project. People need to have cool heads and actually examine the behavior instead of this pile-on behavior. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, these types of comments from Alarbus are not acceptable. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

That was a response to Maunus's comment "Hope you get gonorrhea", which was obnoxious - and well deserving of a block, I think. (And it's especially egregious coming from an admin, and demolishes any pretense of his being uninvolved) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

That didn't come from an admin as I point out. At this point I can be as involved as I fucking well please.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It came from you, and you are an admin - and as your block was still in force and you refused to lift it, you were very much still in an admin capacity at the time. Now, I seriously would recommend you leave this alone for a while and stop escalating your obnoxious comments, as of you carry on it won't come out good for you -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I think I know better than you do whether I'm an admin or not. I was not when I said that or I never would have said it. Doesn't matter much now. I would leave you with some gratuitously abusive comments, simply because it feels so good, but I suddenly feel I am at peace with the world. Thanks to everyone involved - this was all for the best. I have an thesis to defend tomorrow. Goodnight all you beautiful people. Even you Alarbus. Now you can have the templates all for yourself - no one will interfere with your choice of color.138.16.112.187 (talk) 18:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Apologies for not spotting that you have handed in the admin tools - if you told us of that somewhere, I didn't see it -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Before this is closed and you all walk away smugly, patting yourselves on the back for job well done, consider the damage that's done by editors who edit war and refuse to engage in talk page discussion. Also please consider the timesink that is AN/I at a very busy time of year for many. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Unblock

• Given that there is no clear consensus here supporting the block, the blocking admin is responding increasingly emotionally rather than rationally (and being extremely uncivil in the process) - and has agreed that another admin can unblock, that there have been no diffs forthcoming to support all the allegations of misbehaviour, and that the socking accusation has not been upheld, I've employed WP:AGF and WP:BOLD and have unblocked Alarbus -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Well done. Being rational is great isn't it? It just sucks that its so difficult to sleep at night afterwards.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

You're burning out, dude, and you need to back off and go do something else for a while - your "Hope you get gonorrhea" comment was vile, and worthy of a block (if not a desysop) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

If I could block myself I would have. Now its up to you to put some action behind your words. I hope I don't have to call you names too, since you haven't done anything to me.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Listen dude, I really don't want this to turn out any worse for you than it already is, so please, can you listen to some sensible advice and just go away for a while? Switch off the computer, go read a book, have a beer, whatever - carrying on arguing with everyone here is harming only you! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Not really - I am out of harms way at this point. Thanks for caring though!138.16.112.187 (talk) 18:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• I'm just curious - have you had time to read the diffs and really think about them. I only just now posted them. And have you given other admins the opportunity to study the diffs? Please answer in all honesty. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• I did look at them (in fact, I'd already examined some of Alarbus's past edits), and while edit-warring is not good, it seems like an attempt at post-hoc justification for the block after the original reason had been clearly refuted (and the blocking admin refused to unblock, insisting that his gut feel was more important than evidence). (As it happens, with what little I know about tables, templates, and colours, it looks to me as if Alarbus was actually improving things, but that's an aside) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you for your answer. I just wanted to remind you that we don't edit war and that we discuss to reach consensus. I've been seeing precious little of that. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mention you, Truthkeeper, as I have genuinely felt an empathy with you and for your forlorn defence of your friend Ceoil. You've done nothing that I wanted to object to and never wanted to see you dragged here. Heaven knows, I never wanted to be here myself, but I felt somebody had to bat for Alarbus and the IP.

Would you do me the kindness of looking at Alarbus' 4 reverts to Hunter Thompson where he and Dianna are trying to implement WP:HLIST and shorten the over-long list items in a navigation template against an IP who is fighting tooth-and-nail to retain the outdated, inaccessible forms, please? How would you have handled it differently? Is "rv; unhelpful; those are not the articles titles, anyway, just the originally-published-as; such detail more appropriate to the article than a navbox. And you didn't use {allow wrap}. See page widening" the edit summary of someone who is looking for a war, or that of a very competent technical editor trying to educate an intransigent opponent?

Do you now accept that having a "background:#C2B280; color:black;" or a "background:#E1A95F; color:black;" colour scheme badly fails WCAG standards for accessibility? and that WP:HLIST is an accessibility improvement over the old {{middot}} style? Because that's what Alarbus was fixing ("remove colour that fails colour contrast analysis") and what you ("undo; baby blue doesn't seem appropriate for the macho guy") and Modernist("Reverted edits by Alarbus (talk) to last version by Modernist") were shoving back. Aren't these the poorest examples possible to be asking for an indefinite block of Alarbus? --RexxS (talk) 17:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

RexxS, as you well know, I have bent over backward to try to bring rational discussion to this - to the point that it's interfered greatly in my personal life. At this point the issue of the navigation templates needs to go to an RfC in my view to prevent the loss of more editors and more content production. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

You have. I feel for you, I'm sorry you've been involved (although not by me). Honestly, TK, you need to step away from this. I didn't want to make a big deal about it, but I'm increasingly concerned about how this is affecting you: Look at the Physical oceanography evidence you offered, there's no sign of edit-warring there by Alarbus (=One Ton Depot), and the only revert is when Epipelagic corrects my error and credits Alarbus/OTD with understanding the problem (edit summary: "no, we've been over this before. This change breaks the display states set for all the articles on the template. One Ton Depot understands the problem. There are other issues as well"). Also Alarbus never edited Western art movements template. We have WP:ACCESS#Color, WP:HLIST, WP:DEVIATIONS already enjoying considerable consensus. Are you really asking for an RfC to revoke these? --RexxS (talk) 18:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I have been away - Both the IP and Alarbus have not removed spurious colors - they removed perfectly good colors from those templates. Their contention is that the only good good color is the default color. The contrast was okay in several that the IP reverted, without any remark at all concerning contrast and readability. Those concerns are legitimate concerns and they were not made, and they were not made clear. Alarbus seems to have a grudge against Featured articles and featured article editors and writers; the IP and Alarbus only coincident edit was the one at 2:57 - where Alarbus checked out and the IP checked in - so it is not impossible. I do not want any carry over edit wars from Alarbus or the IP. In my opinion maunus did a good job, I have had no contact with him that I am aware of before this issue and I think he did his best...Modernist (talk) 18:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Alarbus did remove spurious colours: "background:#C2B280; color:black;" & "background:#E1A95F; color:black;" fail the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines that we have agreed to adhere to on Misplaced Pages as well as on the rest of the web. So please correct yourself. Your opinion of what "Alarbus seems to have a grudge against" is a classic assumption of bad faith. It's that sort of assertion that leads to conflict instead of resolution here. And finally, your theory is now that Alarbus made 27 edits from 01:51 to 02:57 on Campaignbox templates, (plus a note to User:Edokter about a rule for Campaignboxes), then somehow instantaneously appears in Panama as an IP and makes 6 out-of-process closures of totally unrelated templates at Templates for discussion (Nebraska Cornhuskers football award navbox??) then between 03:02 and 03:03 gets back home and carries on as Alarbus with Template:Campaignbox British airborne forces operations, and edits for another 30-odd minutes before logging off. Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds compared with the alternative possibility that they are two different, unrelated editors? --RexxS (talk) 19:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth - you misread what I said. I said that the IP and Alarbus only coincident edit was the one at 2:57 - at the time it was unclear who was where, the IP was in Panama and the sock probe was determining where Alarbus was. The IP deleted reasonably usable contrasting colors - and Alarbus did the same during the earlier Hemingway dispute. As you know I talked with you at the time about our willingness to use properly contrasting text and colors in the templates. I would appreciate you refraining from any further attacks against the editors involved in this dispute...Modernist (talk) 21:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

That's odd, I was under the impression you were the one doing the attacking, and I was the one doing the defending. Nevertheless, I'd be more than happy to refrain if you will also, or is that not part of the deal? --RexxS (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, given the line above, you don't seem able to stop. I suggest that you try...Modernist (talk) 00:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I noticed this thread belatedly. My experience with Alarbus, in his earlier incarnation as One Ton Depot (talk · contribs) was most unpleasant. It was a protracted experience of relentless attacks from One Ton Depot as he ran over dozens of templates I created and attempt to look after, refusing to give any solid rationale for what he was doing while shouting at me that I didn't "own" them. When, in exasperation, I attempted to remonstrate with him, I was warned by Diannaa, who appears to be the administrator presiding over the template blitz, that I was not to discuss his unacceptable behaviour. At the time, the guidelines did not support what One Ton Depot was doing. In a subsequent saga of frustration, Diannaa dismissed my every concern by stonewalling, just parroting her position over and over in a patronising way, refusing to give any rationales. I too, like Truthkeeper and others above, got to the point of thinking it wasn't worth trying to add value to Misplaced Pages. This heavy-handed blitz on templates has been going on for some time, and I see other editors appear to have resigned.

None of this drama was necessary. I suggest that much unnecessary strife would be preempted by providing a decent essay somewhere which sets the issues out clearly and rationally, and provides a sensible forum for dissenting views. My concerns were not acknowledged, and templates are now under the control of a handful of technos. I know Misplaced Pages is "not a democracy", but just how far are we going with the current process of whittling away meaningful participation by content editors? --Epipelagic (talk) 21:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that none of this drama was necessary. In my case it was because of a simple edit - I didn't understand why the color had changed. I also think edits such as these that show assumptions of bad faith , while at the same time complaining that bad faith has been shown is problematic and doesn't add to a collaborative editing environment. I'd like to see links to where the nav box changes were decided and I think the entire community needs to know about these changes before more of this happens. If necessary we should run an RfC. At the least, the changes should be well publicized and explained. It's been explained to me that it's for WP:Access reasons, very ironic since I have quite poor eyesight, but nobody has explained any where that all the nav templates in the entire project are being changed to the same color. The tool to choose compliant colors is here, and many colors, other than the baby blue that formats on my screen, are available. If every single template is to be the same color, I think it's a change that needs to be well-discussed and explained. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

184.100.94.240 and Free Radio Santa Cruz

There seems to be an issue with Free Radio Santa Cruz and an editor (User talk:184.100.94.240) who believes in removing sources claiming they are "leftist". I see this as a POV issue, and am requesting some assistance with an administrator. I have informed the IP editor of the POV issue, and that Misplaced Pages has a neutral policy. The editor believes that he/she is justified in removal of the sources and other content because of the ideological beliefs of the sources on the article. If it sounds confusing, it is. I would like some help. Thanks --ḾỊḼʘɴίcả • Talk • _{I DX for fun!} 04:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Resolved – CrustyPores blocked indefinitely. --GraemeL 14:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Resolved: User blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Resolved: User unblocked after retracting threat. m.o.p 20:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Resolved – Maunus blocked for a while per his request; I think there's no need to worry about this particular incident, we all lose it sometimes. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

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