Misplaced Pages

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This page has archives. Sections older than 1 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Declining number of editors and donations

Here are some reasons for the declining number of editors, and for the difficulty in getting enough small donations each year without longer and longer fundraising periods:

The lack of enough moderators and arbitrators drives away editors and donations. More info.

Non-admin closures of articles and categories drive away editors and donations. See also.

Rude or speedy deletions of articles and categories drive away editors and donations. See also.

User:Timeshifter/Userboxes

One thing that may change things over time is more community understanding of these problems. Hopefully, more community understanding will generate more support for change to occur. Userboxes are one way to help initiate discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:39, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm intrigued by the 2nd userbox. How exactly do non-admin closures drive people away from the project? Wouldn't they have no impact because non-admins can't close deletion or category discussions as delete? I would have thought deletion would be more likely to scare people away than closing a discussion as "keep" or "merge", or have I completely misunderstood? --Mrmatiko (talk) 16:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

More to the point, these userboxes seem to be expressing opinion as fact. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow. That's the first time I think anyone has suggested that having hundreds of arbitrators would be a positive change. Risker (talk) 16:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the first box, but the 2nd and 3rd are spot-on. We could add the tolerance of incivility from the regulars. Yopienso (talk) 17:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I will keep that in mind the next time I delete articles such as Allah and his jews, Justin Bieber Sucks, Misplaced Pages:Jack off, or my favorite, John R. Niggerlover. --MuZemike 17:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I am always fascinated by the idea that new editor retention is the fault of New Page Patrollers. It isn't our fault that newbies create articles that look like shit, and it's not our fault that someone chose to write about their kindergartener or spam their resume 9 times (I am not making these examples up). At my RfA, people commented on the fact that I was the first NPP admin candidate in a long time, and that my kind is a dying breed; when you're on the receiving end of the comments that we're baby-mutilating deletionists responsible for most or all of our editor retention problems, it's not exactly surprising. Of the very few who stick with it, most of us either never become admins after we lose it once or twice or we eventually leave Misplaced Pages. It happens that I like being here enough that I can put up with it (there are a few things that make all the downsides more than worth it), but I'm sick of people who've clearly never done NPP bitching about how evil we are. I've said as much to Sue Gardner (not my most tactful moment, but it got the message across), and though I and a few other users came up with a solution, it wasn't implemented, so we were left with the status quo; what else do you want us to do? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:15, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The Blade, please review this advice. I find your comment, "It isn't our fault that newbies create articles that look like shit," as failure to uphold the fourth pillar. Yopienso (talk) 02:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

It's simply WP:SPADE. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:31, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

It's borne of a year and a half of witnessing the same story replay itself; I know it's not the nicest way of putting it, but I've found in that people don't take it seriously if I don't use a little extra emphasis every once in a while. And while I try very hard to assume good faith with people who are merely misguided (although even that wears on you after a while; if you don't believe me, tell me how you feel after cleaning up the 10th Indian/Pakistani village article you see), people like this or this (the article was mistagged A7 at first, it was a rather vicious attack page) don't need anything but a swift block and a template showing them out the door. In addition, as is apparent from my comments in other fora, I'm still unhappy about the outcome of this, which would have alleviated much of the problem. Instead of having that since August or September, we're spinning our wheels looking for a more complex, harder to implement solution. If I sound extremely frustrated about this issue, it's because I am, and while I'm all for civility experienced editors need to vent too sometimes. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the specific number of "hundreds" is somehow strange, but a faster and more efficient resolution of arbitration cases will certainly be benefitial. FkpCascais (talk) 18:20, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I too agree that 2 and 3 are valid. Add to this the distasteful RFA process, the bitey attitude of many of our editors, the assumptions of bad faith of good faith, etc. It tries the nerves of many editors. Not to mention the massive IP blocks that are in place including the one blocking the IP series of the entire Department of the Navy including the Marine Corps. --Kumioko (talk) 18:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm with The Blade on this one, of course; I'm still surprised he passed RfA, given some folks' attitude to those of us hardened enough to actually do NPP (a/k/a "drinking from the Magic Firehose of Sewage"). Could someboy create a userbox that says, Blunt or speedy deletion of worthless articles and categories drives away spammers, cranks and vandals? --Orange Mike | Talk 20:05, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I am also. Nice to see we have at least one Admin who came up through NPP. I think good editors are driven away by bad editors (in my experience at least). Dougweller (talk) 20:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

True. To dig up Jimbo's old metaphor: just because we don't cage people in in our restaurant doesn't mean we are obligated to let them go on rampage if and when they pick up the knife. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:41, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not a matter of caging editors but of retaining a sufficiently large enough group of genuinely-public editors to maintain a "patrolling effect" on articles. Without enough people, the article content will become biased due to companies out there selling services to create public-relations type of articles, modify articles in order to provide quotable material to support a public-relations article, "sanitize" negative yet truthful material, remove the results of criminal cases by using the tactic of combining multiple sections into smaller ones, and revisioning of scandals.AnimeJanai (talk) 01:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Err... have you looked at the donation-statistics over the years? 2007: $1.5m, 2008: $4.7m, 2009: $8.5m, 2010: $14.5m, 2011: $18m... Doesn't exactly look like there's something "driven away," does it? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 18:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

According to their latest financial report WMF has cash and investments on hand of about $17M, roughly equal to a full year of expenses. And contributions exceeded expenses by a very comfortable margin (about $23M and $18M, respectively). So the argument that contributors are being driven away is untenable in both relative and absolute terms. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, you two, for the stats. This article has a timeline chart of active editors over the years: Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2011-12-26/Opinion essay. This table has monthly page views for Misplaced Pages over years: Page Views for Wikimedia, All Projects, All Platforms, Normalizeds. Here are fundraiser stats over years: Fundraiser statistics - Wikimedia Foundation. It looks like the total monthly page views for all Wikimedia projects in all languages has almost doubled in around 4 years. Pages now have more images, audio, and video. People viewing Wikimedia pages are more widely dispersed. This wider distribution of the viewership increases server, hosting, maintenance, and staffing costs beyond just the number of page views. More and more video hosted on Wikimedia servers add a considerable burden to the system over time due to the high bandwidth needed for video.

We need a lot more money for all the Wikimedia projects in all the languages. It seems like we never have the money to develop global, integrated watchlists that work well. Nor do we have the money to develop a quality visual editor. Wikia has tried for years, and their visual editor is very inadequate. I am an admin/bureaucrat on a Wikia wiki. With the declining number of active editors on Misplaced Pages I see a lack of quality in many articles. I don't see that great of an increase in small donations this year. We have some large donations. If those are taken out of the fundraising total this year, it puts the number and total money from small donations in a different perspective. I think Wikimedia is losing its creative juice. I find it less and less interesting to edit here. Registered vandals waste my time. Arbitration is very inadequate. I tend to post and run more, because registered vandals make editing such a pain anymore. We need hundreds of arbitrators. We also need more developers. More volunteer arbitrators could be found. More year-round MediaWiki developers costs money. I don't think donations will ever be enough. See Misplaced Pages:Advertisements for various ideas. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, that — is different from what you started out with. My conclusion is that we need alot more enforcement, and more stringent rules to fight the vandals that are annoying you so much. As for arbitrators, I don't know what that would do. Do you really believe that the kind of people who don't give a damn about coming to a consensus will suddenly be all tame and nice just because someone with an arbitrator-hat or medal tells them to? And what the heck do you want gimmicks like global watchlists for? Is it really so difficult to have two or 3 tabs open simultaneously? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:20, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

You obviously are a newb as concerns the longstanding request by many people for integrated watchlists. We need hundreds of more arbitrators to settle edit wars. We need more money. We still do not have watchlisting of talk page sections. That is something people have wanted for as long as I have been editing on Misplaced Pages. Developing that requires money for developers. How can you settle article editing disagreements efficiently if you can't see when there is a reply on a specific talk page section? For busy article talk pages with multiple sections it is a basic need. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:30, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree with Timeshifter, as many articles are stuck in long-disputes and POV-pushers too often abuse and get to remove good editors because of lack simple and faster arbitration tools. For exemple, a RfM takes often months to be accepted, takes too much time, and when it is concluded, it lacks means to enforce decitions. My experience with it ended up being quite painful, where 2 years were lost with the same issues still being unsolved. This ends up being frustrating to serios good-will editors (not to mention possible scholars, who certainly don´t want to loose time with editors gaming the system and no one to enforce policies and decitions). FkpCascais (talk) 03:02, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how more Arbiters of the current breed would settle edit wars (which often at least start as content disputes, although they sometimes turn into personal vendettas). Arbitration as done on Misplaced Pages is not arbitration in the classical sense. In theory, it does itnot handle content conflicts. In practice, it sometimes does so in rather arbitrary and unpredictable ways (pun noted, but not intended). Mostly, arbitration has evolved into a petty crime court of last resort, which mostly deals with fairly minor and, in the end, not very consequential violation of WP:CIV. Arbiters have a hard job, and they provide a useful service, but arbitration as a process is far from where it needs to be to settle long-standing content disputes (which are often rooted in real world conflicts). I don't know exactly how and where we should evolve our dispute resolution process, and how to manage to resolve content conflicts in a way that is both encyclopedic and consensual, and that avoids WP:RANDY as well as truth by committee. But simply adding more Arbiters is not a constructive step. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:22, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

My first reaction is "You're kidding, right?". We have enough arbitrators? Allowing content disputes to go on for years is a good thing? By the way, I updated the userbox. Separating civility issues from content issues might be a good thing to do. Maybe use different arbitrators for each. That of course would require more arbitrators. But the bottom line is that most arbitration concerns content in the end. Truth by committee is better than truth by whoever edit wars the longest. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe my typo threw you off. ArbCom does not currently have a mandate to handle content disputes. It never had. It sometimes uses conduct issues as a pretext to overstep its mandate (which may or may not be a good thing - on the whole I'd rather have a community process for that). Getting more arbiters would not change the lack of a mandate. And as long a s ArbCom hears every case en banc, more arbiters would probably slow down proceedings even more. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

No matter how it is dressed up, ArbCom is handling content disputes. It is handling them poorly, because it ignores the content disputes, and blocks those in disagreement over content from the topics in question, usually for a year. It is an ignorant process, and severely abusive to all involved. It oftentimes blocks those currently most knowledgeable about a topic in the hopes that other knowledgeable people will show up. Who oftentimes will again disagree on content. Then the whole topic is put on WP:1RR and some admins are requested to monitor it on an ongoing basis. That last part, the admins monitoring the situation, is actually a good thing. That is what should have happened from the beginning. It took years for this to happen with the Israeli-Palestinian topic area. See WP:ARBPIA (see under "Further remedies"). Admins should be requested to enter into content disputes and make suggestions on how to specifically settle the content dispute, and not just the conduct methodology. Then if that doesn't work, then arbitrators should be requested to make suggestions about the content dispute, not as a whole group of arbitrators though. The focus should be on the topic of content. This of course will require many more arbitrators. Finally, if the content dispute is still not settled, and no content solution is found, then we go to group arbitration of some very specific content. A group of around 5 arbitrators is big enough to be fair, and small enough to work quickly. There is no need to have all the dozens of arbitrators involved for these group arbitrations. There are too many unresolved content disputes that will reach this level. So that would not be possible. And it is unwieldy to have more than around 5, 6, or 7 arbitrators working on a content dispute. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to thank the new page patrollers and admins like MuZemike and The Blade who spend quality time repelling nonsense. I don't do NPP but I spend time combatting vandalism, spam and other misguided stuff, and I am convinced that the most important factor is speed. If a spammer/vandal/troll gets a link (or better still, a page that is indexed instantly by Google) to stay for even a couple of hours, they think their time is very well spent, and they are encouraged to repeat the process indefinitely. Removing their nonsense immediately is the only way to convince them that Misplaced Pages is not a ripe fruit waiting to be plucked. There are two points of reality in the three user boxes above: First, a small number of marginal new articles are deleted too quickly, and the speedy delete notices are too stupifingly bureaucratic (in a small number of cases where the editor shows promise). Second, it takes far too long to get relief from problem editors who are not clear vandals or other really blatant trouble makers. It should be far easier to get a temporary topic ban or page protection (of the right, that is, established version)—yes, wrong bans/protections would occur, but that problem would be far better than the current problem where good editors are driven away by misguided nonsense. If a page were protected to the wrong version for a month, at least the good editors would have relief, knowing they can turn their attention elsewhere while engaging in a limited amount of discussion regarding the problem page. Johnuniq (talk) 22:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You and the other veteran editors/admins here certainly should know what you're talking about. I agree speedy deletions are often necessary and helpful. Rudeness never is. A good friend of mine is famous for his speedy deletes but is always gracious and gives tips to those poor souls who have no clue what they did wrong. I did not mean to condemn such useful editing. Yopienso (talk) 01:23, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. I tried wading through some of the various article creation proposals spread across multiple wikis. I believe that article creation should only be allowed for registered users after they have been registered a certain period of time, and after a certain number of edits. Rude and speedy deletion of articles occurs for many articles created by new editors. Why put them through that grief? Let them learn about wiki culture a little bit first. Trying to figure out the various article creation proposals is difficult. Trying to follow the discussions is even more difficult. Why do people insist on using obscure wikis like the meta wiki, the strategy wiki, and Mediawiki.org? They have much less participation than the English Misplaced Pages. Without a global watchlist it is difficult to follow the multiple discussions. Also, I find that the outside people hired or consulted by the Wikimedia Foundation are out of touch with the reality of editing. It reminds of how Wikia hired some bean-counters, and outside CSS experts, and tried to revamp Wikia for more ads. But the hired guns had little editing experience on wikis. Ruined Wikia. I feel some of the same cluelessness from some of the consultants to the WMF. Excuse my bluntness, but it is extremely frustrating dealing with people who are newbs, and those same people are trying to improve the article creation process for newbs. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:19, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

For articles created by unregistered editors, how about creating some sort of sandbox articles waiting to be patrolled first before turned into articles? In case of everything being OK, the patroller could have the possibility of taking it to the next step and turning it into an article, but, in case of having problems, leaving a note at the "article-candidate" about the necessary improvements (including links of policies and time limit for the improvements to be performed), or simply explaining why the articles fails and deleting the sandbox after a few days.

About the foundraising issue, I honestly doubt that the newcomers make any important part of the donators. I would rather guess that well established dedicated editors make much more contributions, am I wrong? Is there any study avaliable about the type of editors and their contributions? FkpCascais (talk) 06:20, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

You mean a bit like Articles for Creation? --Mrmatiko (talk) 08:20, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

We direly need a tutorial for new editors. I propose two levels: one for people like me who just edit existing articles and another for those who intend to create new ones. We should all be required to walk through a tutorial and pass a simple quiz before being unlocked to edit. I sure learned some things the hard way. This would pose no difficulty to the savvier newbies, as they could quickly check off the correct answers if they really are so smart. Here is a case in point; this happens all the time and most certainly discourages new editors. Yopienso (talk) 08:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

From my personal experience, tutorials suck (or at least requiring them would suck); for instance, when I play a new video game, I want to play the game and not sit through some tutorial or "Level 0". I certainly wouldn't want to take any quiz on basic gameplay stuff. Why expect the same here? --MuZemike 08:33, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm proposing a one-time tutorial and quiz for first-time editors. Allowing those who think they don't need it to hit an override button could work. The quiz would be on the six bulleted points on the welcome template. A first-time editor experienced with wikis elsewhere could skim through that and hit the button. He/she should still have to read the Pillars and understand WP:VNT, WP:COI, and WP:PSTS before being unlocked to edit.

What I find so senselessly sad is the wanton flouting of the 4th Pillar; it does keep new blood out. If editors received basic instruction and demonstrated competence before being allowed to edit, we would have much less frustration among the established editors and virtually eliminate the vandalism by kids who would never bother to take the quiz. (No, it would not eliminate all vandalism, but would prevent "joy-riding.") Yopienso (talk) 09:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

It would be quite easy if talk-page and main-space edits could be sorted; then require new people to have a certain number of talkpage edits before letting them loose on main-space. One learns much more from the discussions than from some tutorial. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:32, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

We experience here Orwellian practices like arbitrary destruction of content, even if it is legitimate. http://www.wikinfo.org is much better and allows things banned here like original research, fringe theories, etc... Wikinfo plans to import Misplaced Pages and expand it in directions disallowed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.22.141.217 (talk) 09:23, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Is that why it shows a 503 right now? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

It's the middle of the night in the USA; I'd guess they're just down for nightly maintenance.

So, do you think there's merit in pursuing some sort of "licensing" before editing? I would think a new editor would at least have to say (truthfully or not) that s/he had read this page. Or is this impossible drudge-work I'm proposing? Yopienso (talk) 09:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

(Asking me? My suggestion is above. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:53, 31 December 2011 (UTC))

Yes, asking you. I can't tell if "It would be quite easy if talk-page and main-space edits could be sorted" means it's easy since the edits can be sorted or if it's difficult because they can't be sorted. User:Timeshifter makes a good argument. I'm serious; if you are, too, I'd like Jimbo and page-watchers to hear a concerted voice requesting basic training for first-time editors, thus reducing frustration and saving time on all sides; I would do well to get my "certificate," too. (Now, that's an idea as the very first level for WP:SVC.) Don't know what to suggest for unregistered users. Yopienso (talk) 10:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I wasn't clear: I'm against tutorials; I never learned anything from any tutorial. I am serious though about the idea of requiring new people to engage in talkpage-conversation first and learn from that. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 10:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Wikinfo's back online. And I'm over and out. Zzzzz. . . Yopienso (talk) 10:37, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

While I agree that there should be some form of barrier to article creation, having some extra requirement before editing would prevent wikipedia from being the encyclopedia where "anyone can edit almost every page". How would you accommodate IP editors within this idea? --Mrmatiko (talk) 10:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Not at all. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 10:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Can you just confirm which part of my comment you were replying to please. --Mrmatiko (talk) 12:30, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

The "accomodating IPs"-part. We're talking about article-creation here, and they can't do that anyways. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:53, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of a tutorial being offered when a new article is started (a tutorial for all editors). But I believe that an editor should be able to override the tutorial completely if they so choose. Tutorials turn many people off. I think the main way to limit the biting of new editors, and the overwork of new page patrollers, is to only allow articles to be created by editors with a certain number of edits and after a certain period of time after registering a username. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

A fine tutorial has long been offered, as well as a detailed guide to writing a first article and a most helpful primer (an essay to guide the perplexed). Since all Wikipedians (despite accusations of troglodytism and worse) are modern human beings, most of us never look at it.

Quote from WP:CREATE: Articles may only be created by registered users. If you are not a registered user, you may either register now or ask for your article to be created at Articles for Creation. I suggest we further require either hands-on training, as those who hate tutorials prefer (which takes longer), or a quiz for the more academically-minded, which requires plowing through instructions and internalizing them.

This, I suppose, makes me an evil, undemocratic pedant, like all those horrid officials who insist on licenses to drive, to own weapons, to marry, etc. Time, however, has proven that building a wall and inviting the whole world to write on it results in a great deal of graffiti.

Happy New Year, Jimbo and all Wikipedians!! Yopienso (talk) 19:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Going back to Timeshifter's last comment for a second, we did propose what you have recommended and got consensus for it; however, as we all know the WMF vetoed it. --MuZemike 19:45, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I kinda disagree with Timeshifter´s last proposal. It would basically mean that new users would have to vandalise some existing articles before having the right to make their own masterpieces :) I´m exagerating, of course...

I fully agree with MuZemike that large tutorials suck and they will end up being ignored. What I propose is much more simple, that in cases of new articles being OK, there wan´t be necessary doing anything; however, in cases of new articles having flaws, the patroller will provide only the necessary recomendations.

Happy New Year to all! FkpCascais (talk) 19:56, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Click: Test article 2. It suggests reading Misplaced Pages:Your first article. I think that article should open up anytime anybody clicks a redlink. At the top of that opened article would be a link called "Skip this article, and go to the edit window." --Timeshifter (talk) 22:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes!! Here I go labeling myself as a pariah--I created one article years ago as an IP to demonstrate to my students why I would not allow them to use WP. (Then I got hooked.) Now I don't even know how to start an article! (Gulp.) But having that header pop up takes care of the trouble we're addressing here. The only refinement would be to have a radio button or box to click saying the new editor has read the heading. That makes her/him responsible for its contents without forcing a tutorial or wait time. Yopienso (talk) 00:07, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe. The bottom line is that NewPages will still be full of junk. Anyone with a minimal amount of braincells has looked at a few given articles and will probably have noticed the refs and formatting that most of them have. I, at least, concluded from that (before I even started anything here) that that's what I will be expected to produce. Alas, there are people whom this logic escapes. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, I don't mind cleaning up some of the formatting, because it can be extremely confusing (just figuring out how to put the infobox in on Noh Poe, without the pushpin map, took me 30 minutes); however, the vast majority of the time I share your disbelief. That's why I waited 10 1/2 months to create a new article, because I wanted to be completely sure I knew what I was doing. I don't suggest that long of a time to wait, but... well, my position on that is above. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment. There is another recent discussion about the declining number of active editors, and editor retention. See: Misplaced Pages talk:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-01-02/Interview. The discussion is in the comment area after the Sue Gardner interview. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Editors for hire

Hi, JW. I'm looking at what you said a few years ago about editors hiring themselves out to write articles for the hiring organisation. It appears at that time you rather strongly considered the practice somewhere between unseemly and corrosive. That is more or less my opinion, though there are obvious questions of how it can be policed if the editor involved doesn't disclose. Has your opinion changed? I'm looking at WWB Too (talk · contribs) in particular. At least he's disclosing that he's being hired by various companies and individuals to write or edit "their" Misplaced Pages articles (here, here, here, and here, for example), but…h'mm. It appears the community has struggled with the question of whether or not this sort of hired-gun editing is acceptable, so far without consensus. I ask you for your current opinion primarily out of curiosity over whether and how it has changed since your earlier statement on the matter, and without intent to use whatever comments you might have to whack anybody over the head, about the ears, on the kneecaps, or on/in/around any other body parts. Happy gnu ear! —Scheinwerfermann ·_C19:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

My view hasn't changed at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:35, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave space for Jimbo to reply, directly, above here. However, before letting this topic ramble too far on assumptions, let me repeat that Jimbo said: the COI editors should limit edits to talk-page comments only, and not edit the articles directly. The COI editors need to wait to convince other volunteers, on volunteer schedules, to voluntarily modify articles to state COI-fostered claims. It is not acceptable to play some implicit-consensus games, such as, "If no one objects in 2 days, I will edit the article to state this is the best product since sliced bread, and buy 10 or more for maximum benefit". Please read other editor comments below. -Wikid77 05:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

WWB Too is always very up front and honest about any COI he may have, as he completely was in this case. He is a wikipedia contributor in good standing since 2006. I have worked with him previously and he is a good NPOV writer that closely considers policy. Youreallycan (talk) 19:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, count me as curious, too. As Youreallycan notes, and Scheinwerfermann at least acknowledges, I always disclose my involvement where client matters are concerned and, as a matter of course, seek consensus on Talk pages before considering direct edits. I'm very careful and cautious in this regard—in fact, I wrote a favorably received COI compliance guide earlier this year.

That said, I am well aware that the spirit of Misplaced Pages is in volunteership—and I have been a volunteer here myself since 2006—so I am respectful of the fact that editors will sometimes be skeptical of this activity. In the interests of transparency, I keep a list of past client projects on my user page to make it easy for anyone to see what articles I've been involved with. My goal is always to make Misplaced Pages better, and I believe any fair appraisal of my work in this regard will find this to be the case.

Actually, regarding your (Jimbo's) comments from 2009, I very much agree with them, and consider my work along these lines to be consistent with your suggestion: "Now, could it be perfectly fine for someone to set up an independent writing service for GFDL / CC BY / CC BY-SA content, to be posted somewhere else, and for completely independent wikipedians to find it useful in some way? Of course." I think that describes my approach very well. Cheers, WWB Too (talk) 22:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm very reluctant to even create the appearance of bringing a contretemps onto JW's or any other uninvolved contributor's page, so I will keep my comment here narrow and brief: I don't understand how your activity can accurately be described as writing and posting comment somewhere else for completely independent Wikipedians to incorporate in articles. No, you are writing Misplaced Pages articles for hire, right here on Misplaced Pages. Is it possible one or both of us is misunderstanding what JW meant? —Scheinwerfermann ·_C03:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

As long as you're asking, I may as well answer: the somewhere else in this case is my userspace, where these drafts begin and remain until completely independent Wikipedians agree to their inclusion. I aim to follow all Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines as I do so, with special care given to WP:COI, WP:SCOIC, WP:PSCOI and WP:PEW. Cheers, WWB Too (talk) 03:27, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Well WWB Too I looked at your work for one of clients, Cracker Barrel. I'm not Jimbo and you didn't ask for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway: what you are doing is really wrong and bad and you should stop doing it.

After looking at this article, I'm just really mad at you, and just generally appalled. Rather than going medieval on you here I'll continue over at your talk page.

As for the rest of you, it's appalling that this kind of whitewashing of egregious corporate malfeasance (and for pay!) is tolerated, at all. It's just horrible. Herostratus (talk) 08:02, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I've reviewed three of WWB Too's articles and they seem to me to be neutral in tone, well referenced and balanced. What they are certainly not are whitewashes, as for instance Herostratus would have us believe. I fear it is true to say that unpaid editors can have far greater and more deleterious biases than do the better of the paid editors, and that we might do best to concentrate on worrying more about the content of the article and the approach of the editor, and less about seeking to stigmatize the input of paid editors merely because they are paid. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:19, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and I am sure that Rupert Murdoch would attempt to maintain the illusion of NPOV, at least for a time, if he were to somehow purchase editorial control of Misplaced Pages. If paid editors are allowed free reign on Misplaced Pages, it will not be long before they dominate Misplaced Pages. Being paid for their editing, they will be able to spend far more time and effort supporting their client's interests than volunteers will be able to spend defending Misplaced Pages's impartiality. This is a slippery slope, and the final result could be the end of Misplaced Pages as we know it. Ebikeguy (talk) 17:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree in part. This is why paid editors don't (and shouldn't) have "free reign"—expectations for such editors should include disclosure, a high standard of behavior (and perhaps guideline familiarity), and a strong encouragement to seek consensus before going beyond non-controversial edits. Cheers, WWB Too (talk) 19:06, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, WP has a history of editors paid to represent the disreputable as reputable. This is not a thought experiment, we've been on the slope for a while already. Ironically, at least the paid POV pushers are forced to do a better job "sourcing" their content under the guise of credibility to collect their paychecks. The issue is how long will reputable editors stick around to counter questionable (at best) content in areas of contention where opinion is elevated to the same level as fact--since WP policy explicitly states that it does not matter whether or not something is true (meaning simply factual, not arguing over "truth"), only that it is sourced. Ye reap what ye sow, folks. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 22:15, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

• Slippery slope and crack in the dam: Fostering a culture of paid-editing is more likely to be a crack in a dam, breaking wide-open to a flood of self-promotion edits. Look at the ocean of adverts in Google Knol, to the point that many common subjects were written as short introductions to long commercial ads. It obviously did not matter to enough Google Knol editors that the whole place was swamped with commercial ads, regardless of whether the claims were sourced, or even still current claims made against competing products. Meanwhile, the long-term WP editors are likely to react poorly, if they think Misplaced Pages is becoming overrun with self-paid adverts to be updated and polished by time-consuming volunteer efforts. Few editors I have met want self-written vanity pages to be left in Misplaced Pages, and I have seen them WP:AfD-axe such articles in recent months. I wish volunteers could adequately police self-promoting editors, but volunteers cannot even fix claims that some former religious leader was the "most influential person in leading people to salvation" during 1950-1970. Misplaced Pages is not staffed with enough people to moderate self-paid claims in numerous articles. -Wikid77 05:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Am I a bad person? I stumbled across this discussion, because I am a paid editor. I was never paid for editing WP. Since age 16, I was paid by newspapers, magazines, advertising agencies, publishers. They paid me, because I did a good job. I did not have to sell my soul, I simply had to write well. Until I did read these pages, I never thought I was a bad person for accepting the money.

Misplaced Pages is the 💕 that anyone can edit. “Can” – yes. “Should” – no. You should not edit Misplaced Pages if you don’t know the difference between “it’s” and “its,” if you consistently spell “their” as “thier,” if you are an all-around lousy writer. Good writing is a gift, and not all are gifted. There are people who have something to contribute, but due to their nonexistent writing skills, they better don’t. It is perfectly OK for those to pay a writer to do a better job.

What we have here is a case of no good deed going unpunished. So there is an editor who fully disclosed that he was paid for writing, and he gets nailed to the cross for being honest. His offence? He broke a rule that never existed. There is no policy against paid writers on WP. The statement by Jimbo Wales was a statement by Jimbo Wales. It was not carved into two slabs of marble and carried down Mount Sinai. It was part of a veeeeeeeery long discussion about paid editing, which ended inconclusively. Instead of a policy, an essay was written.

That essay says that paid editing “is not currently prohibited on Misplaced Pages. The community has to date, attempted twice to ban the practice, with the outcome twice being no consensus. It is however been made by consensus that editors who are paid, represent a clear Conflict-of-Interest and are Strongly Encouraged to state this on WP:COIN what articles they are being paid to edit and declare whom they are working for before doing so.” It’s an essay, not a policy. Usual disclaimers apply.

If there is a need, we can reopen the issue of paid editing, with the goal of finding a policy. I recommend caution. Disallowing paid editing will not stop paid editing. It will simply drive honest paid editors underground. WP already is being edited by reams of undeclared PR agencies, lawyers, “company employees in their free time,” and what have you. I would rather deal with someone who openly states that he is doing this for a meager living than be flummoxed by an army of irregulars and their sockpuppet drones.

I don’t think we are having an issue with money changing hands. We are having an issue with WP being abused as a propaganda instrument. WP should not be abused for advocacy, paid or free (the latter can sometimes be much worse). There already is a policy for that, we don’t need a new one. BsBsBs (talk) 15:37, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Now, wait, some spelling errors are OK. At the WP:GOCE Guild of Copy Editors, we deal with many thousands of grammar or spelling errors, often correcting 50-150 per article, in many cases. It is a staggering amount of work, but I say let a subject-matter expert expand an article, even with spelling errors. -Wikid77 12:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if you're a "bad person" BsBsBs. There's good and bad in everyone I guess. I do know that User:WWB Too is a corrupt hack. He might be kind to animals or have other redeeming qualities, though, and I don't think casting these issues as "not a bad person" is helpful.

I don't know if all editors in the "Misplaced Pages COI community" are corrupt hacks, but I don't see how they couldn't be. How many are willing to fairly present negative information about their clients? I don't mean "Yeah I'll put in some of the bad stuff so I look fair, and because it's going to go in anyway, so might as well be my weasel-worded minimize-the-harm version". I mean actually doing it fairly and correctly, featuring it if its called for, adding important and damning details, and like that.

If they don't, they're bad Misplaced Pages editors and should be shown the door by Misplaced Pages. If they do, they're bad PR people and should be fired by their clients. Either way they shouldn't be here, period.

One of the problems is that it's practically impossible for humans to be fair-minded in this way. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it". You know, if someone is signing your checks and helping you feed your family, well of course he's a fine fellow. Of course all those bad things they say about him are overblown. It's only fair to clarify this. You see what I mean? It's only human to feel this way.

Public relations is an honorable profession. Trying to persuade the New York Times to cover your client's speech is honorable. Hacking into the New York Times database to alter the coverage of your client's speech isn't. Do you see the difference? One is fine and useful. The other brings disgrace to you, your profession, and your client.

Gaming the fact that Misplaced Pages is volunteer-written and has an open database isn't an excuse. If you pervert the essence of what the Misplaced Pages is for, for personal gain, you're hacking our database. You should probably stop doing that.

Incidentally, you're exposing your client to opprobrium by doing that. We're a public charity. That taxpayers aren't supporting us so we can whitewash the facts. Paying someone to corrupt our database is shameful and might be illegal. You want to expose your client to that kind of ignominy? Maybe you don't care.

Driving bad things underground is a good thing. It is an excellent way to minimize bad things. It doesn't eliminate them. That it doesn't is an argument could be used against all laws and so is essentially a nihilistic argument.

Declaring one's COI does approximately nothing. If I declare that my COI is that I'm a flaming nutcase and hate Jews, is then OK for me to write "Jews did 9/11!" into an article? After all, I've declared my COI, so no problem! Not having a COI -- as in, not editing the Misplaced Pages for pay -- is what's called for here.

Sorry to be harsh but this is bad bad bad and a potential "game over" for the Misplaced Pages if this gets out. This is much much worse than if we accepted advertising, for instance. I see a lot of honeyed words surrounding a lot of weak arguments and bad behavior. Furthermore, there is apparently a self-sustaining "COI community" here. They're clever and ruthless (after all, they're professional writers and their livelihood is at stake, so why wouldn't they be) and there are also a lot of editors who think that whitewashing malfeasance is not a big deal. I think this is weak-minded, but between these two elements we are screwed, I would say.

I'm not sure what can be done about this. I certainly can't compete with paid editors and corporate bankrolls. I have my own job. Jimbo probably can't do anything. ArbCom can't set policy so they probably can't do anything even if they wanted to.

It's sad. It's a nice project and a nice website. It's just sad to see it go down this path. Herostratus (talk) 04:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Calling someone names is bad, uncivilized behavior. It also automatically disqualifies everything that follows. Lose your cool in a discussion, you lose.
• There is no policy against paid writers on WP. If you don't believe it, read this long discussion from 2009, where everybody from Jimbo on down weighed in and which led to no policy.
• It's not game over. There had been two official attempts on bannig paid writers, both fizzled. The game is still on.
• Read the essay on the topic. It was triggered by the discussion. The editor in question seems to have followed the recommendations of the essay to the letter. Executing someone for violating rules that aren't there, and for observing recommendations that are there is lynch mob behavior, plain and simple. BsBsBs (talk) 07:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The above is a classic evading-the-message response. Do you have anything to say about the points made? Johnuniq (talk) 07:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no need for a point-to-point rebuttal if the premise is wrong. The correct premise is that there is no policy. No policy, no violation. End of story. Calling someone names totally closes the subject. Stringing someone up for a non-existent crime is lynching. BsBsBs (talk) 09:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Well perhaps "calling someone names" is a civility issue, but there is a long-term precedent, "If it's true, it ain't libel" (search in Google or Bing). The recent concerns of COI editing have included contacting other editors to support the fight, and then when those editors badger opponents with multiple, repeated talk-page demands, then not stating that such badgering was out-of-line nor apologizing for contacting them to fight. Those actions seem corrupt. -Wikid77 12:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

In regular life, the "truth" defense works only with slander or libel. It does not apply to insults. In other words, even if the other person is an asshole, you can't call him one. By claiming that it is the truth, one is simply perpetuating the uncivil behavior. Also, badgering has nothing to do with being corrupt. If it would, hordes of badgering edit warriors on WP would be corrupt. cor·rupt, adjective: Having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain. BsBsBs (talk) 14:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment. Last time I found Misplaced Pages in the news, I posted the link here on Jimmy's Talk page and eventually someone told me to post these links on Misplaced Pages:Press coverage 2012. This time I added the link there, and just found this discussion. At any rate, I watched C-SPAN this evening, and WWB/William Beutler was being interviewed about his work on Misplaced Pages on the Q&A show. You might want to watch it here, includes transcript. 99.50.186.111 (talk) 03:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, thats a really interesting and well presented interview. William's blog is also worth a look - http://thewikipedian.net. Rather than attempting to vilify people like this, who are upfront and intelligent proponents of the project, the project would do better imo by employing them. Youreallycan (talk) 12:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Great interview, sure, but having paid editors here is really the opposite of what the project is about. The articles in question (Association of Global Automakers, Cracker Barrel) both read like marketing blurb and WWB Too has now moved on to spending incredible amounts of time following up and making sure that the articles conform to his bosses' desires. I have a full-time job and a wife and school and don't have the kind of time necessary to protect articles from yet another problematic user with an agenda - a user with waaay much more time available than the rest of us. For instance, the majority of the sources used in AGA are not available online (at least they're not linked) - it smells to me as if AGA simply handed WWB Too a pile of articles that they liked, and then asked him to write a nice article for them. And naturally no one can then demand that he somehow find new articles, especially on a topic which doesn't interest him, but on a topic about which he is writing only because he is getting paid for it.

I really find this a threat to the entire project. If being a skilled WP editor means that you can then become available for hire to push various companies agendas, then I don't see how there can be any room for independent thought left. But I really don't have time to deal with this kind of nonsense, something I thought we were protected from here at WP. I would rather edit an interesting article than spending hours trying to display the obvious bias in a bland-as-pudding article about a crappy restaurant and a crappy lobbyist group. Here in Misplaced Pages, an editor for hire is worse than no editor at all.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 15:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, you guys. I am disappointed to learn that User:WWB Too is a paid editor. He posted to my talk page and, call me dense, even with his disclosure there I didn't guess. Based on information in the video, he expects to earn his living doing this. Gee whiz, a lot of us (including Misplaced Pages) could use a source of income, but he was Johnny-on-the-Spot. I urge Jimbo to post his preference. Mine is definitely to keep this place all volunteer. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:47, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

From the look of the whitewashing job for Academy of Achievement that WWB Too is proposing on your talk page, as well as the article that began this discussion, it appears that he is being paid primarily to rewrite articles on organizations that have things they would like to hide from the general public. WWB Too uses his expertise to write articles that appear to conform to Misplaced Pages rules, while removing all the "bad stuff" that his clients would rather not see. This is truly deplorable, and I reiterate that it is a slippery slope into a Misplaced Pages that is dominated by spin doctors and other PR professionals. As a professional journalist who understands the difference between promotional writing and objective writing, I beg my fellow members of the Misplaced Pages community to prevent this from happening. Thanks, Ebikeguy (talk) 04:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes and according to this at Association of Global Automakers he's running a tag-team op -- presumably with other paid editors in the burgeoning "COI Community" -- to prevent his odious drivel from being redacted or properly tagged. Herostratus (talk) 17:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Anyway. Well, this guy is pretty amazing. Looking at the Cracker Barrel article, the level of mendacity, cherry-picking facts, misrepresenting sources, and other egregious offenses in service to his corporate paymaster is pretty breathtaking.

He quadrupled the size of the article (here's the diff] from 710 words to 2818 (the not-s0-nice stuff was reduced from 320 words (45% of the article) to 290 (10% of the article, buried deep) and balanced by 410 words of lying flackery. Anyway, I thought this was kind of funny:

• Added: "here are two separate menus: one for breakfast, the other for lunch and dinner"
• Added: " group of friends had eaten breakfast at the Lebanon location each Tuesday for over 20 years"
• Added: "Cracker Barrel's mission statement... states that 'everyone who walks in our front door gets a warm welcome and a good meal at a fair price'"
• Added: "specialties include... a breakfast platter named 'Uncle Herschel's Favorite'"
• Removed: All mention of the fact they were indicted for giving illegal contributions to Tom DeLay, part of this highly notable scandal which ended DeLay's career.

LOL. One of these things is not like the other! Which one of these is of actual encyclopedic value in getting a encyclopedic understanding on this entity? But I understand. Something's got to go! Can't have the article be too long! Anyway. If you want to find out that kind of information, why are looking in the Misplaced Pages? Our editors have to eat, you know! They know what side their bread is buttered on! And why do you want that kind of information anyway? What are you, some kind of commie? This is a Fortune 500 company here, my friend. Let's have some respect! If you want that kind of information, the internet is that-a-way, chuckles.

As I say, that's far from the worst of it, very far; that's just removal of information as opposed to outright lying, which is also plentiful. But I don't have worlds enough, or time, to detail all of that.

But I love this in the "Alleged racial discrimination" section: "In 2004, Cracker Barrel signed a five year agreement with the U.S. Justice Department to introduce effective nondiscrimination policies..." Why did they do that? It doesn't say! You can't find out by reading Misplaced Pages! Maybe they called up the DoJ and just asked to sign a five year agreement because they're just nice fellows!

Oh wait. "More specifically, the United States alleges that, on account of race or color, Cracker Barrel has segregated customers by race; allowed white servers employed by Cracker Barrel to refuse to wait on African-American customers; seated or served white customers before seating or serving similarly situated African-American customers; and treated African Americans who complained about the quality of Cracker Barrel’s food or service less favorably than white customers with similar complaints. The United States further alleges that in many cases, Cracker Barrel managers directed, participated in, or condoned the discriminatory conduct described above."

Oops.

This was covering 50 stores in seven states by the way. Nice outfit.

To be fair, some of us suckers volunteers later cleaned up some of User:WWB Too's work, so hopefully it's better now. Hey, we've got the free time!

Look. Apparently User:WWB Too is this person William Beutler. He speaks real nice. He's got a nice suit. He's super polite. He makes it all sound so reasonable! I'm certain that he's sincere. So what? Have you never heard of "doing well by doing good"? Look it up.

I get it: there's no policy against this corrupt hackery. As long the person is out front about it, no problem.

Oh well then. Herostratus (talk) 17:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Herostratus, it's very clear that you don't think much of Cracker Barrel as a company. That is a perfectly fine opinion to have. However, the information that was removed was done so consistent with site policy. Likewise the positive information I've added came from reliable sources, and was handled in an encyclopedic manner. It so happens that Cracker Barrel has a very positive public image, in spite of its historical blemishes. Both are appropriate to include, and so they are. Is it more legitimate for Misplaced Pages articles to adopt an adversarial position with regard to their subjects? I suggest that it is not the case, and in fact that it is contrary to Misplaced Pages's guidelines to do so. Relevant controversies should be dealt with dispassionately, and material included should be carefully considered.

As to Global Automakers and Academy of Achievement above, I'm seeking to work openly with the community to create or revise articles in such a manner that they are more consistent with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, not less. That said, there is often room for disagreement, and this is why I state my affiliations up front. As I mentioned at the top of this thread, I always make sure I am careful to follow relevant guidelines and essays related to paid editing, including WP:COI, WP:SCOIC, WP:PSCOI and WP:PEW. I hope you can agree you would rather have paid editors like me than those who would operate anonymously. If I really was a corrupt hack, you probably would never have heard my name. Best, WWB Too (talk) 20:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, you're holding up the works for everyone involved. Do I have to read WP:COI, WP:SCOIC, WP:PSCOI and WP:PEW just to interact with you? I have to wait for your drafts, and then make your edits for you, otherwise Jimmy Wales will block you. You could have just made your comments like anybody else can and gotten just as good results. Come on. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

WWB Too, you keep telling us that you are being transparent about your status as a paid editor, but several editors, including SusanLesch who has interacted with you significantly, did not realize that you were paid for your work on Misplaced Pages until they read this thread or another thread in which you explicitly stated that you were paid for your work here. I strongly recommend that you include a disclaimer stating that you are paid for your work on Misplaced Pages in every comment you leave on any talk or user page, and that your Userpage contains a bold banner at the top, stating "I am doing Misplaced Pages editing for clients who pay me for such services." THAT would be truly transparent. Ebikeguy (talk) 00:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

With this suggestion of a WP variant of the yellow star, this discussion now officially jumped the shark. This farce needs to end. With there clearly not being any policy against this, the discussion should never had started. The editors who started this were negligent. They accused someone of a crime that does not exist. Those who want to change the rules can attempt to change them, through regular channels, not by running to Mama. Before this is done, current rules (such as WP:COI) should be re-read. Editors also should refrain from behavior which clearly violates existing WP rules, such as uncivil behavior, wikihounding, and more. If there are things to be improved in an article, improve them. BsBsBs (talk) 16:34, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Your equating my suggestion that paid editors identify themselves as such to the actions of the German Nazis against the Jews during the Holocaust is a clear personal attack. WP:NPA specifically states that "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons" is a personal attack. I demand that you redact this comment and apologize immediately.

I did not compare editors to Nazis. Referring to a suggestion that certain classes of editors should have huge warning banners on their Userpage, and disclaimers in every comment "on any talk or user page," I opined that this would be "a WP variant of the yellow star," and I stand by this assertion. BsBsBs (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The "Yellow Star," of which you accused me of using a variant, was a badge the Nazis forced the Jews to wear during the Holocaust. Thus, you directly compared me to the Nazis who were persecuting the Jews. Ebikeguy (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

This is turning into a broken record. I am sorry, I will have to ignore you. BsBsBs (talk) 20:31, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

BsBsBs, you are clearly equating Ebikeguy's comment with Nazi actions. You brought up the yellow star, no one else.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 23:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Brandmarking individuals, or whole classes of people is inhumane and cruel. Throughout history, it was used to cow, to denigrate, to single-out for mistreatment by frenzied mobs. I shall exercise my right to speak out against it, even if others feign outrage about the words, while lacking the outrage about the reprehensible actions. BsBsBs (talk) 11:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Academy of Achievement Contact Information

Although it is difficult to find contact information on their website, I was able to find this email address for the Academy of Achievement, one of WWB Too's clients for whom he is doing paid editing on Misplaced Pages:<email address redacted - spambots read Misplaced Pages too Risker (talk) 23:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)>. I encourage editors who feel strongly on this matter to email the Academy of Achievement and let them know how you feel about their using a paid writer to edit their Misplaced Pages article. Thanks, Ebikeguy (talk) 04:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I am not a thin-skinned guy. However, if the above does not clearly violate WP's no personal attacks policy, then I don't know what does. BsBsBs (talk) 16:34, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I have not personally attacked anyone. Please be more specific. What aspect of WP:NPA do you feel I have violated? Ebikeguy (talk) 16:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

If you can't see that the above was an egregious, direct personal attack, then you have no business on WP. Would you feel personally attacked if I would find out who you are, and then I would write nasty letters to your boss or customers, and I would urge others to do the same? That's a real, nasty, hurtful personal attack. WP:NPA, which you just cited, strictly forbids "Threats or actions which deliberately expose other Misplaced Pages editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time, which may be applied immediately by any administrator upon discovery."BsBsBs (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I've done nothing that will result in persecution of any Misplaced Pages editor by their employers, or anyone else. Note that Misplaced Pages defines "persecution" as "the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group." I have not violated WP:NPA. Ebikeguy (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

You have imo crossed the line of Misplaced Pages:Harassment and you should be blocked. You have encouraged wikipedia editors to take action off wiki to affect another editors real life detrimentally. I want to request you retract the encouragement for editors to do that.Youreallycan (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. I have not broken any Misplaced Pages rules by encouraging editors to contact a company using paid editors on Misplaced Pages. I did not encourage any harassment whatsoever. The email address I posted was publicly available on the company website. Ebikeguy (talk) 18:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Note to Involved Editors - Youreallycan has brought me up at ANI for publishing the contact information for the Academy of Achievement. I would like to encourage the editors following this discussion to weigh in at the ANI discussion. Thanks. Ebikeguy (talk) 19:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who is inclined to do so should also consider that the number of my direct edits to the Misplaced Pages article about the Academy of Achievement, at this point, is precisely zero. What I have done: I've prepared a suggested alternative draft that is posted in my userspace, commented on the article and user Talk pages to involve all recently involved editors in a discussion, which is ongoing, and disclosed my connection to the Academy at the top of every thread. I would also invite anyone here to consider the content issues under discussion on the Academy Talk page, which are legitimate. Ebikeguy, that goes for you, too. WWB Too (talk) 13:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

We simply don't have the kind of time at our hands to compete with a paid editor, especially one who has the skills to keep following the "letter of the law" of Misplaced Pages, while violating what WP is supposed to reperesent. Volunteers may have their own axes to grind, but at least the personal opinions of various editors represent a democratic effort. It doesn't make me happy to harm someone's ability to earn a living wage, but this must be dealt with now, before WP is nothing more than yet another corporate playing field. If some guy happens to love Cracker Barrel (I eat there on most road trips) then I welcome his edits. If WWB Too is paid to whitewash Cracker Barrel's article, then I feel personally threatened. I have provided thousands of hours of free labor, hundreds of free images, to a project which is democratic. If this is to turn into a contest of which company has the deepest pockets, then I feel utterly betrayed. Thoroughly sickened,  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 23:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it is perfectly appropriate for members of the general public, including active Wikipedians, to contact companies who are funding inappropriate behavior at Misplaced Pages to let them know that it is not appreciated. I think such activity can and should result in public scandal for the perpetrators and I am happy to facilitate exposure of the facts in the media. Here in the UK, Member of Parliament Tom Watson has been working to expose problems in the media generally (he was a driving force in the hearings about the phone hacking scandal here) and with PR/lobbying firms attempting to undermine and subvert the basic principles of Misplaced Pages. I'm happy about that and think we need a lot more of it. Those who throw up their hands and say "Ah, there's a lot of this going on, so give up" are the people I want to reach with this message: we have the power to do something about this, so there is no need to despair. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo, as I replied to a user on my talk page, my opinion is that it is not ok to harrass a Wikipedian's employer. It is bigger than this one issue. If you let the line slip here, you'll enter a grey area where it is "OK in some situations" which will greatly discourage editors from contributing when they fear harrassment at the office. Contacting a company that does paid editing is one thing, but when it's just one person than we either need to enact a policy and block him or leave his employment alone. I, myself, have editing METC and several other Air Force articles. Should I fear someone is going to call my Commander about my Misplaced Pages editing? Don't let this be a grey area.--v/r - TP 13:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I am proud of you for taking a firm stand in the face of prominent opposition. Harassment and pillorying is wrong. Encouraging mob rule is wrong and downright real-life dangerous. Publicly countermanding volunteer peace officers who try to establish order is bad leadership. You are absolutely correct that this is bigger than this one issue, and it takes people like you to stand up for what's right. Thank you. BsBsBs (talk) 08:45, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Sorry to have to throw a pan of water on such a warm and fuzzy lovefest amongst the "COI editor community", but the attempt to place this what Ebikeguy was done under the rubric of "harassment of an editor's employer" looks disingenuous at best. It conveniently disregards the discouraged, highly contentious, and problematic nature of hired/paid editing, and elides the corrosive effect thereof upon the basic precepts on which Misplaced Pages operates. It is a fatuous, circular piece of contrived PR spin aimed at keeping the necessary spotlight of scrutiny off bought-and-paid editors. This is not even vaguely close to one editor finding and publishing personal contact information of another or posting the fact that such-and-such an editor works at thus-and-such a company. It is more akin to bigots bleating about the intolerance of those who will not accept bigotry. —Scheinwerfermann ·_C09:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I am not talking about the "COI Community." I am talking about acts of harassment and canvassing for real-life mass harassment against one Wikipedian. TParis was absolutely right to put a stop to this. People are free to THINK and SAY that WWB is a sinner or a prostitute. But they are not right to take direct off-wiki action against anyone for anything. We all have conflicts of interest, somewhere, somehow. Did you and I write about car parts and their regulations while you and I were in the car part business? Were these bad articles, just because we violated the amateur status and knew what we were talking about? Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. BsBsBs (talk) 09:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Considering I am the editor whose contributions are under primarily under scrutiny here, I feel like I should weigh in. I'm in complete agreement that PR firms should not, as you say, be allowed to undermine and subvert the basic principles of Misplaced Pages. There are too many bad actors, like Bell Pottinger and surely many others, who operate anonymously, and with ignorance (or worse: contempt) for Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. But I think there are also good actors—as I try to be—and constructive interactions are possible. Specifically, I agree with your June 2009 comments on paid editing, and believe the fourth paragraph describes my approach very well.

Meanwhile, I'm afraid that issue has been conflated with my actions, and I'm concerned that my efforts have been misrepresented. For example, in the case of the e-mail address posted above, I have made zero direct edits to the Academy of Achievement article; I have only raised content issues on the Talk page. There are legitimate disagreements over, say, the content in Cracker Barrel's article. But it was a bad article before, and is a pretty good one now. It was certainly not a "whitewash" (although that term is AFAIK undefined here; cf. WP:WHITEWASH).

In a nutshell: When I come to an article that is relevant to a client, and I find material that is poorly written, under-developed, unsourced, or POV, I look for agreement between my client's goals and Misplaced Pages's, consistent with WP:COI. Where there is a difference, I always intend to put Misplaced Pages first (and yes, this means lots of telling clients "no"). What I do is prepare alternative language to address these problems, which I post in my user userspace, as if userfied. I then bring the issue to attention of uninvolved editors on that Talk page, perhaps also at a relevant WikiProject, and frequently at WP:COI/N. I always disclose my connection to the subject matter, accept feedback and work with volunteer editors to find consensus.

The thing about being a PR professional and Wikipedian: one can be both, and I am. I've spent a lot of time thinking about the two in relation to each other, I think I would be in a good position to help work out acceptable and unacceptable interactions between the groups. Jimmy, if there is any role I can play in doing so, I'd very much like to. Cheers, WWB Too (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC) (also User:WWB in non-COI contexts)

Where's the rule?

Jimbo: I have a serious, honest question about your last comment in this thread. Let's say you or someone else does sit down and talk with these PR firms. What happens if there is a PR firm smart enough to read all of our rules looks who notices we don't have a single rule preventing someone from being paid for editing? Not one. No policy forbids it, no guideline restricts it, and the last community discussion we had on the issue ended up without any consensus forbidding paid editing. WP:COI (the closest thing) in fact, very explicitly allows people to edit when they have a conflict of interest, though it recommends extreme care and using the talk page rather than editing the article directly, but it doesn't actually forbid it. Won't it be very difficult to make a case when our own rules don't restrict the behavior? As I said the last time this flared up, if you want paid editing to be forbidden, please either get the Foundation to make a top-down rule overriding community consensus, or, as an editor, start another RfC and see if consensus has changed since the last time this was discussed at a community-wide venue. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:33, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Well said, Qwyrxian. This sham needs to stop. It is clear that there is not a single rule preventing someone from being paid for editing. However, this fact is swept under the carpet, and straw-man arguments are brought up by the minute, while civility falls by the wayside, and harassment is condoned. At least the Founder should know, but he engages in the same misleading campaign. He also - scary, scary - mentions it in the same breath as the UK phone hacking, which was clearly criminal. What is done here is spinmeistery of the first and crudest order. It goes to show that spin and flackery are not combated by keeping the paid ones out. The unpaid ones can fill the void just fine. You are right: Get a new rule handed down from Mt. Sinai, or start another RfC, or forever hold your peace. BsBsBs (talk) 13:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's the thing. BsBsBs is a paid editor. It's one thing (and bad enough) to influence articles for money. But BsBsBs (and other paid editors here) are participating in governance discussions for money. They're not doing it at the behest of a particular client (maybe; not sure what's billable) but they're doing it protect their livelihood. BsBsBs is not saying "This sham needs to stop" because he believes this. He's saying it to put food on his table. (He may also believe it but that's only human and is irrevelant.) The question is, should editors participate in governance discussions when the result affects their bottom line? If there's any sham that needs to stop it is that. Herostratus (talk) 17:29, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it! (Upton Sinclair) —Scheinwerfermann ·_C18:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Problem with anonymous IP editor on Kobe Bryant sexual assault case article

Happy New Year, Jimmy. I hope my past mistakes do not preclude my asking you for advice on a troublesome matter. I'm having some difficulty with a problem IP editor with a history being blocked for edit warring, and who seems to have difficulty following WP:AGF and other guidelines, in regards to his insistence on adding the name of the woman who accused Kobe Bryant of rape some years ago to the Kobe Bryant sexual assault case article. I'll try to summarize in five succinct questions:

1. BLP policy clearly states that Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. This description would seem to fit the name of Bryant's accuser quite clearly. Because of this, and other arguments brought up during the discussion on that article's talk page, as well as other precedents such as Star Wars Kid, which omits the name of that subject's name even though it appears in sources that are cited in that article, I removed the accuser's name from both the article and the talk page. Was I correct to do so? The other editor, 70.245.209.94, argues that the article talk page discussion shows only five people in favor of omitting her name, and eleven against it. Now putting aside the fact that I count it as four to six, and not five to eleven, and that this is a problematic endeavour when some editors participate from anonymous IPs (which could allow single editors to chime under different ones), my understanding is that while we do build consensus, editorial decisions are ultimately not based on voting, particularly when policy is clear. Am I correct in concluding this?

2. Editor 70.245.209.94 takes issue with the phrase "widely disseminated" by arguing that her name has appeared in The New York Times. Now I apologize to have to ask you this, since I think this is obvious, but since he insists on splitting this hair, I want to make sure that you agree with my response: My understanding of the phrase "widely disseminated" means that her name is mentioned commonly, across many news publications, particularly reputable ones, to the point where her name becomes a household name, at least at the time that the case first made news, and not that it is merely reported in one publication, even a widely read one like the The New York Times, since that would mean that "wide dissemination" essentially has the same meaning as or criteria as the Verifiability Policy. Am I right here?

Nightscream (whom, full disclosure, I am acquainted with in real life through our common participation in Wikimedia-NYC events) has asked me for opinions on his questions 2–5 here, since no one else seems to him (or me) to be addressing them.

Here, no, I don't think that publication in a single outlet, even one with the stature of The New York Times (probably one of our most frequently cited sources), counts as "widely disseminated". Daniel Case (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

3. Editor 70.245.209.94 continues to include the name of Kobe Bryant's accuser on the article talk page, and the IP talk page. If you summarily agree with the above that removing her name is necessary, then is it a blockable offense for someone to continue mentioning her name on the talk page in new talk page messages? And if it's not so clear-cut, would that mean that it's okay to mention it?

I think we're entitled to some latitude on a talk page discussion while the issue is being resolved (much as we allow the temporary use of a fair-use image there if it is relevant to a discussion, while that discussion is taking place). Daniel Case (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

4. Editor 70.245.209.94 repeatedly violates WP:AGF by accusing me of harboring a bias against Bryant, that arguing that omitting the accuser's name implies guilt on Bryant's part (even though it's common for reputable news organizations to omit the names of alleged rape victims). Although he continued to do this during his block, I decided not to extend the block or ask another admin to do so because I hoped that I could show him how assuming intent on the part of someone, without eliminating other possible motives, is an ad hominem logical fallacy. He responds that "ad hominem is not a logical fallacy if it is to establish bias". My efforts are probably futile, so I need to ask, if an editor continues to violate AGF with repeated accusations, is this a blockable offense?

Yes, especially with a response like that indicating an appeal to logic would be completely lost on the respondent. However, get someone else to make the block. Daniel Case (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

5. I know that talk page etiquette allows editors to respond to other editors' messages by placing responses to certain passages in the middle of the first speaker's message-- that is, responding to a sentence or comment directly after it. I dislike this practice, as it appears to mutilate my messages, and makes it difficult to discern the authorship of the individual messages at a glance. When this happens, I tend to remove the responding editor's responses and place them after my initial message. Is this acceptable? Shouldn't the initial editor have some say in that? If so, and editor 70.245.209.94 continues to mutilate my messages, is that a blockable offense? Nightscream (talk) 04:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

My interpretation of this practice is that it's easier to interpolate responses between paragraphs where there's naturally space. If I want to fisk someone's response, I put it in quotes and italics within my own grafs. At the very least, if you do this, Nightscream, I'd put in a note of some kind noting the refactoring. Daniel Case (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The name should be included; a long paragraph going on about the accuser's admission to "lying" when neither her handwritten letter nor the paragraph blurb introducing it in thesmokinggun.com puts it that way (the two sources), not so much. I made an edit to that, but the rest of the article could bear checking. Wnt (talk) 16:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

No, the accuser's name should not be included - she's a clear BLP 'one notable event' case - and I have to admit that that article is doing a fine end-run around BLP by basically listing off everyone the accuser knows: Poor woman's going to have to move to a new town because everyone who reads wilkipedia will know intimate details of her personal life. This is not a scandal-rag, this is an encyclopedia. stick to the facts of the case. --Ludwigs2 16:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:BLP1E is the threshold for creating an article about her, not the threshold for naming her. "Avoiding victimization" in BLP is a statement about pulling names out of primary court transcripts or the like. Once there's a body of published work about a person, including them becomes a relevant detail for an article. Wnt (talk) 16:57, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

WNT, the spirit of BLP is that we are an encyclopedia, not a scandal rag. We avoid unnecessary defamatory or embarrassing material except where it's necessary to describe some notable event. This woman is not notable in her own right, and is only notable because she accused someone famous of assaulting her sexually. We do not need detailed information about the woman herself (her life, her character, her name) because the woman is not significant to the article. The only reason to talk about her at all would be to try to argue Kobe's side of the case; but he had lawyers to do that, Misplaced Pages doesn't need to.

All this article needs to say is that Kobe (the notable individual) was accused of the crime but the charges were dropped because the accuser refused to testify; maybe present some of the surrounding analysis of the media frenzy surrounding the case. trying to drag the woman into it is irresponsible and unencyclopedic. --Ludwigs2 18:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

You're justifying your position with an inexcusable lack of imagination. Certainly I can think of a reason why we'd want to know her name - to know what happened to her. Was she hounded to her grave by Kobe fanatics? Did she take the undisclosed settlement and retire happily to a private island? Or is the truth somewhere between? Now that she's a public figure we have a right to ask such questions - we have a right to ask how damaging the sort of character assassination that came up at the trial really is, how damaging the prospect of lawsuits over alleged rapes is, and to use such information to inform our opinions about public policy and whether the rules of evidence in rape trials should be changed. Wnt (talk) 02:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Since we seem to be discussing only Point #1 from my original message at the top, and not Points 2 - 5, can we move this over to that article's talk page? I've responded to Wnt's most recent post above there. Nightscream (talk) 04:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

In the context of a male-dominated world, in which there is a stigma (or even deadly sanctions) attached to being a rape victim, we may need to actually create a policy. Balanced against the (Western) right of the accused to "confront their accuser" is also a woman's right to have a private life. It is not for Misplaced Pages to out LGBT's nor rape victims, is it?

Some contributors have been trying to conceal the facts about blaming the victim and honor killings. It's bad enough to get raped; let's not pile on. --Uncle Ed (talk) 22:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has a policy WP:BLP#Avoid victimization; the point is, it prohibits outing rape victims from obscure filings, as opposed to naming people who have 55 pages of results on Google about the case already. Wnt (talk) 13:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

About man, who makes lobby for EMI or Apple Corps.

Hello, many time we can see, that not good man makes lobby for EMI: User:Freshacconci. But today he showed self completely. He created a great shame for a large number of organizations, that use the open data platform of Socrata. Including, the United States government (data.gov - Socrata). I ask punish the person who creates the damage to the Misplaced Pages, including, I ask undo of his last violation (illegal rollback) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Please_Please_Me&action=history , to provide: no trace of this terrible disrespect. He must be punished for lobby. Exist many cases, when this user made his black business. This is the saboteur. I recommend learn his activity for last 2 years. To look for info (is simply) can be used tag: The Beatles. Thanks for attention! Tom111 Born111 (talk) 19:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC).

• Probably, this user is abnormal, because when he used TW, he calls (me) and my actions as spam: this violation is directed to the Socrata only (not me). On the page of open data placed not The Beatles 1963, but absolutely other versions of songs, for education and culture (purposes), interactive usage must be (there is info - HOW to do it rightly and legally). These songs were created yesterday only (read introduction there). Now I will make rollback of vandal and offender. I ask support of Jimmy on this issue. Because man, who makes lobby, is bad man. I agree even to change text of the link. Such will: (Redacted). I hope that the honor of Misplaced Pages is not in danger now. Tom111 Born111 (talk) 19:28, 3 January 2012 (UTC).

Note

I have notified Freshacconci (talk · contribs · count) of this thread. Not that I expect it to stay open very long, but you never know. I am certainly not going to get involved myself, except of course as a spectator*. Egg Centric 19:29, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

*right to heckle reserved

This is a long-term vandal problem, a Russian user who insists that his website that makes Beatles mp3s available for download is 100% legal and cleared by EMI/Apple. Obvious BS, and these links to the changing-url-of-the-day get deleted and the socks blocked. A sock of Crazy1980, I'll file an SPI now. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't imagine why you would doubt that assertion.  :) Neutron (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I've also made a suggestion that this socrata.com website be blacklisted, since they a host for user-contributed content and are being used to house pirated works. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Er, wikipedia is a host for user-contributed content. Socrata seems perfectly legitimate to me, even if some of its users are misbehaving. Egg Centric 21:46, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be a user uploaded site that is not a wiki reliable source, just like Scribd. Youreallycan (talk) 22:29, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

A reliable source uploaded to Scribd could still be used as a source. Same thing here - Socrata itself would not be being used as the source, it would be being used to host the source. A crucial difference. Anyway the discussion Mike started hic est. Egg Centric 22:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, "could" is your primary position here and as such just a supposition and not that you are using such sources to cite content in articles? I oppose and remove any such user uploaded sources on sight - the "host" as you call it is not a reliable "host" .Youreallycan (talk) 23:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe I have used such a source in an article but I wouldn't rule it out. So long as the original source is reliable it doesn't really matter who the secondary host is. Of course if the source is something someone came up with in the shower and uploaded while at work, and was never reliable in the first place then that is a different matter, but I wasn't talking about that. In my view if the source is only online on one of these websites (and it isn't an egregious copyright violation) then not only can we link to it, but we should. There is no such thing, in my view, as a "reliable host". Egg Centric 23:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

A reliable host would be similar to a secondary source with editorial control. There is no editorial control with uploads to scribd or to this other site - or any evidence of permission to upload it - copyright violations et al. Please let me know when you use one of these sources in a wikipedia article so I can open a discussion there, regards, - Youreallycan (talk) 23:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I will if I remember! How about starting a discussion about interpretation of policy on the Reliable sources noticeboard? Or you can just stalk my edits... Egg Centric 23:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to take it to the RSNoticeboard - I think I have had this discussion there previously. - A specific desire to add something would be good to give a focus - I will absolutely not be stalking your edits though, if you want me to join in the discussion please let me know - I have a very small watchlist these days with less than twenty pages on it. Youreallycan (talk) 23:28, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok there is a particular page (local trader - Jimmy may be interested as I think he was one once) I keep planning to get around to writing from scratch - when I eventually do I'll try to insert a source from scribd. In return, have you got any daughters of marriageable age? I won't be taking it to the noticeboard myself as I don't particularly care about the issue to make it an issue - I'll defend my position if needs be but I won't actively try to change others' minds otherwise. Egg Centric 23:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Scribd is an interesting one that introduces a number of issues. First they scrape documents from the web, and allow anyone to upload. Which means that much of the content is unlicensed or a copyright violation (and so we can't link to it). Stuff that is uploaded directly by the copyright owner would fall under the definition of "self-published" (which limits its use, especially for notability purposes). Unless of course the material is published elsewhere, which begs the question why not link there? :) Indeed it's definitely much more preferable to link to the RS because it's possible to edit PDF's and Scribd doesn't validate documents. --Errant 10:00, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• For Jimbo text mainly, with grammatical mistakes, because other nation only: Jimbo, bad boys are in your team. My team consists of people which better of your helpers (my team, is your team in the same time, and CC): http://my.mail.ru/community/linksruspower . Your not very clever boys loves make rollback of any edits of my people. They can not understand, that this is a very big damage for the reputation of Jimbo Wales and Misplaced Pages. You and me want the only one (and CC): THE OPENESS. It never will happen if your boys again will be fools. I have 7000 of humans, my partners else have near 15000. I am the part of your system and I ask you to say for you bad boys, that they are often is very stupid. One of Russian made contribution related to Socrata yesterday: Why he was blocked.......I ask. Nonsense. He the such sock like me (plus 15000-20000 else). Can not help any checkers and pings (all develops every day more and faster - progress). Impossible to stop it. Common provider and many of other aspects. Ping - nonsense. As you partner I ask you unblock my human and save his edit. He is not looking for of profit as wolf from Canada. Friend of EMI. Jimbo, you can block me if you want, but this is can become very dangerous mistake. HTML5 and ship with Kaltura ..... My journalists began looking for interesting detals of this ailans. I suggest frienship to you. If no: ..to show me that all right you need restore edit related to Socrata. Be my friend, not enemy. In last case do not wait of good. Give me reply via email (in community displayed) or here. 2.92.61.209 (talk) 05:05, 4 January 2012 (UTC), Александр Болдин.

• To all participants in this discussion - the individual concerned previously conceded to me that he is a troll. He is not here for anything other than the tedious waste of precious volunteer time; I suggest you give that the respect it deserves. :) WilliamH (talk) 05:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• You can become member of my community and will have provider CORBINA, including. No problem. Useful thinkings: My recommendation is to appoint responsible person (for understanding of codes, licenses and so on in different scopes). In every article must be own specialist (master with big box of knowlege by topic). The problem is ignorance of the question exists: they can not understand - legally or no, but rollback of different changes, is easy. Often this is a big mistake. It is the plague of № 1. 2.92.61.209 (talk) 06:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC).

• Socrata is one of many foreign sites with user-generated content that Misplaced Pages would probably be forced to put on a strict automated blacklist in a desperate attempt at compliance if SOPA passed. That wouldn't be the end of it, though - we'd have to blacklist the IP number version of the URL, we'd have to blacklist tinyurl and its competitors entirely so that they couldn't be used to point to something like this, and there would still be fresh URL redirects popping up all the time, etcetera. This troll, perhaps accidentally but I think on purpose, illustrates that a random user can indeed link to copyright violations on such sites. I think that the copyright clergy should content itself with the fact that we have policies against such links and take them out pretty quickly, without demanding the kind of hermetic seal that "not violating a court order" implies. I think we should be able to keep Socrata off any blacklist in the hope that easy linking to it will encourage someone to link out to some useful specialized collaborative project there which is informative to readers long after this troll is forgotten. Wnt (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Do not call me troll, you must respect me. My suggestion in force. Other helpful suggestion: international interaction between language sections at Misplaced Pages, by different topics: English and Russian section, for example. In this context can be cultural and educational exchange, including: different materials, ideas, links by topic and so on (via talk pages of article for example). This is interesting for users and else more, is helpful. Is there anyone among the British and Americans here who are not afraid to discuss topics slippery? Briefly: he brave and not afraid of any responsibility. Such human must not be afraid of displaying of its ideas in any form for the attention of big public, he must be frank in the same time). Nothing illegal. Simply Misplaced Pages on 50% consists of cowards and faint-hearted people. This is the one of the biggest problems here, also. As I spoke already: a big problem in the lack of professionalism that is the cause of illegal rollbacks (and careerism - the number of edits). Lobby - terrible problem. In Misplaced Pages much of agents of EMI and Apple. Cases which we saw 2 months ago is .... (better to silent). Hero from Canada is one of main actors in the show. OTRS with gladness took permission from hands of one of my humans... and.... I have much of good ideas and hope to discuss them in the peaceful environment. Here, including. In addition. Large problem also: struggle with spam became the madness and nothing more. This thing lost any control absolutely and is a danger only. Copyright for some people is thing, for which human must be destroyed. This madness must be stop at international level. My point: if somebody makes money on creative work, he become not autor automaticly (loses moral right to be in such status and loses right be respected). We all respect Jimbo and his non-profit activity! 2.94.224.44 (talk) 19:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC).

It's a sad thing when even Wnt is calling you a troll. In any case, you cannot threaten us, nor can any of your other "comrades". You know what you are doing is illegal (with or without SOPA, though not just illegal in the United States), but you do not care. Your actions and veiled threats are becoming rather disruptive to say the least, and I ask you to stop. --MuZemike 19:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I should apologize - you're right that I didn't "assume good faith" as I should. But your claim that Misplaced Pages was showing "terrible disrespect" to every user of Socrata by rejecting one link seemed absurd, and I unwisely used the phrase others were saying here. But I remain suspicious that there's some scheme afoot to make it look like Misplaced Pages is committing some "abuse" that SOPA has to fix. I want to see the copyright system ended, but I want it ended by reasoned proposal of better alternatives in a political way, or by aggressively exercising Fair Use rights when we have a firm legal leg to stand on, not by asking the flagship of free culture to make your links to this stuff for you and see what happens to them. Wnt (talk) 01:49, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• I do not want listen sush things. Do not write this again, please. These (your words) threats and some else (if not positive) are not actual currently. The only constructive interaction is interesting as for me, as and for other normal people. To delete old problems in new already year. Be creator (not rollbacker) is very great thing. Believe. 2.94.224.44 (talk) 20:10, 4 January 2012 (UTC).

The only thing you're creating is problems for us with your wanton disregard for copyrights and property rights that The Beatles hold. I will ask once again nicely – please stop. --MuZemike 21:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Bad issues not actual. Read above. Are there any restrictions for use of audio OGG at Misplaced Pages (band, duration of song and so on)? 2.94.224.44 (talk) 21:31, 4 January 2012 (UTC).

You're not getting it – a copyrighted song is still copyrighted, regardless if it in the free OGG format or the non-free MP3 format. Putting a song into OGG does not change the copyright status (or any other license in that regard) of the media. --MuZemike 21:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Which ways are allowed? 2.94.224.44 (talk) 21:44, 4 January 2012 (UTC).
  • None, it's copyrighted.--v/r - TP 21:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• You wrong if you refer to only this. Millions of limitations are exist (damage to holder by order of government). Do you want fight with it .....Simply I badly know English language (reason of question from me). If not this problem, I would have left them (holder) with no pants on legal grounds. Because I hate when anyone make money creating millions of problems for simple people. These people want learn be cultural and so on. About specialist (opensource, licenses, mark up and so on in this scope). I have idea: Lawrence Lessig can become such specialist (need to try ask him). He is the most brave of all. Highest (MAIN) pro in this context. What do you think? When will appear doubt in editing of such articles, nobody has right make rollback till his expertise and resolution (within a reasonable time). And chaos become smaller. It's the indulgence, including. I have many ideas. 2.94.224.44 (talk) 23:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC).
  • To claim that any Beatles song is free to download or to stream or whatever is a lie, that is the plainest way that this can be said to you. Tarc (talk) 23:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• I disagree. I will read materials more intensively (in the relation of any works): http://www.copyright.gov (there much of useful information). If say about The Beatles, my opinion is such: EMI and Apple not have right for The Beatles in moral sense, because The Beatles is the history, songs were written many years ago. But new collections are not more, than trying to get full pocket of money. Not respectably. Copyright is respected when holder has opportunity to give good and new material (in this case holder has right get money without problem). But EMI (and Apple) lost such moral right (in the relation of songs The Beatles and movies: 1962-1970 nearly). The only rip-off of own works. Nothing more. And fighting with Goolge and Amazon. Our Beatleman thinks the same. Question: Why Amazon sells discs of EMI (albums of The Beatles, for example)? Amazon offender or all lawfully, I can not understand this. Thus: if Amazon has right, why others can not do it. Miracles. 2.92.61.54 (talk) 01:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC).

I don't know if there's any way to interpret the copyright law of the Russian Federation to claim this usage is actually legal in Russia, and I don't know the legal details of lawsuits for contributory copyright infringement in the U.S. when foreign nations do not prohibit hosting of works still copyrighted here. You might have some legal loophole here for all I know. But this definitely isn't the policy Misplaced Pages follows in WP:EL, and we certainly would need some comprehensible explanation of the case and a careful decision about it before proceeding. Wnt (talk) 02:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• This is not a dispute on the subject of copyright, but peaceful debate. It so happens that it is the flag of this theme (title). Do not look at the topic title. This is not actually. Now we are interacting, finding each other's mistakes, it can be helpful in the context of difference between countries, when exists opportunity to find contradictions, trying delete them in the same time. It should be note, Russian law is not interesting for me strongly. I am jurist (was many years ago). American and international legistation are interesting now. Because Wikimedia Foundation and Creative Commons are in United States. I focus your attention again: I do not try currently to defend alien edits in article Please Please Me. Also I want to know in nearest time about opportunity for foreign humans to make a big step via borders of copyright which in motherland, and to become a part of our (Russian) interactive communities after this action, where creative work is free of copyright protection fully. For example: full-length movies with The Beatles (famous example anywhere) are in the public domain in Russia. It means also: almost all video clips (little part of big movie) become open and free for alien citizens (and big films). Our main Beatleman knows better topic related to films. I want to find legal method. Chinese wall is more easy, probably. Not trouble, something may to do. Will see. I will work above this task. 2.92.61.54 (talk) 03:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC).

Your last posting is incomprehensible, at least to me. I have no idea whether you are suggesting that copyright doesn't apply to the Beatles works, or that it shouldn't - but in either case, your views are clearly not accepted as being relevant to the question as to whether we allow links to Beatles materials that we understand to be copyrighted. We have to assume, unless given actual evidence to the contrary, that they are - and your grasp of the English language seems wholly inadequate to present such evidence. You appear to be trying to argue something that you cannot express in the language of this website, and on that basis, I suggest you try elsewhere... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I just spent two minutes on Google and found, alas, "After the breakup of the Soviet Union, however, the Russian Federation enacted a new copyright law in 1993 that has a duration of life of the author plus fifty years. Id. at 393, 436. Because the 1993 law was retroactive, id. at 525–35 (analyzing the problem and concluding that retroactive application was intended), the films were no longer in the public domain in Russia on January 1, 1996, the date of restoration." Of course, it is possible that this prohibition of previously public domain material is contested by other lawyers. Though this may not be directly relevant to what Misplaced Pages can get away with, the point is, us linking to a Russian site that somehow manages to keep up a Beatles production so that people who type in the name at the search bar can quickly find it and download - this is exactly the thing SOPA would be claiming to ban. The thing is, I think Misplaced Pages would already be vulnerable to legal action about contributory infringement in such a cases if done as a deliberate policy, and passing SOPA would lead to untold collateral damage as private entities demand by court orer that people like 2.92. can't log in and post such links even for an instant, even to a talk page, under penalty of law. It would demand Misplaced Pages to be more autocratic than "an encyclopedia anyone can edit" can possibly be. Wnt (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• SPLITTING THREAD: I have split to #Russian copyright laws (below), because this talk-page thread was wandering into general copyright issues. -Wikid77 16:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Russian copyright laws

(continued from: #About man, who makes lobby for EMI or Apple Corps.)

Russian copyrights are personal only and 50-years after: There is extensive text about the post-Soviet Russian copyright laws (1993 and 2008) in WP article "Copyright law of the Russian Federation" (with many source footnotes). According to that article, a copyright can only be held by a person, not a corporation (etc.). For example, a work solely by The Beatles member John Lennon (1940-1980) might become public domain in Russia on 8 December 2030, as being life plus 50 years. However, if a song had multiple writers, such as Lennon/McCartney, then the date is pushed more than 31 years by the longer life span of the additional author. It seems that any so-termed "moral" restrictions in the copyright are reserved for the living person, and would not affect the life-plus-50-years term of a copyright. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Old Town Canoe

Hi Jimbo. I'm curious if you think this is a notable subject. I also wonder why you think this type of article is attacked for deletion aggressively. Do you think this approach to good faith contributions from editors is part of the reason why so many contributors are being lost? Yes, I put if up for deletion so I would at least have a few days to work on it. Almost all of my previous contributions have been put up for speedy deletion which doesn't allow much time for building. I thought this was supposed to be a collaborative enterprise? With cooperation and assumptions of good faith? That hasn't been my experience in dealing with the administrators here. Take care. Candleabracadabra (talk) 23:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I know nothing of the subject matter (Old Town Canoe) and so I have no opinion about whether it is notable or not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:42, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Afd here...looks like a keeper.--MONGO 04:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

@Candleabracadabra: I though many editors are too sensitive about article regrading to not-so-well-known companies so any articles of this kind will get lot of attentions so if they are not well written, they will be tagged speedy deletions or be bought to AFD. Therfore, if you want to write about companies, you should try to write a good article with WP:RS.--AM 04:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

IRC

I have just been informed that the freenode IRC channels that freenode believes are owned by wikimedia are not actually projects of wikimedia, but rather of some unappointed self-sustaining "group contacts." Is that correct? Why are these "group contacts" permitted to use the registered marks wikimedia/wikipedia? Hipocrite (talk) 13:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a clear picture into this situation. But rather than "going meta" about it, can you tell me what specific thing you think should be changed? What I mean is, there is a complicated question of who is in charge of the Wikimedia IRC channels. I am 100% sure that the people at Freenode will do whatever I or the Foundation ask them to do, so there's no possibility of a power struggle or crisis from that angle. But I also see no real reason to go that route unless there is some kind of specific plan of action that the community agrees is likely to improve IRC in some material way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:37, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I want wikipedia-en and wikipedia-en-admins logged. I want the wikipeda-en log available for public perusal. I want the en-admins log available on demand to any admin. Hipocrite (talk) 14:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I have been threatened with an on-wiki block for publishing any logs on-wiki. See . I intend to file an Arbcom case regarding this abuse of administrative authority. Hipocrite (talk) 15:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I recommend against that. It's been longstanding policy. I'm not averse to a change, but simply breaking policy isn't very helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't intend to post logs to get blocked - that's a violation of WP:POINT. However, there's no way to have the "policy," (which dosen't exist in any form, except from said "group contacts") discussed by the community. Hipocrite (talk) 15:45, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

As demonstrated - I attempted to start an RFC on changing our page regarding IRC, and the very first response was that because the so called "group contacts," say no logging, any publishing of a log would be copyvio. Hipocrite (talk) 16:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Which policy says that you can't post IRC logs on Misplaced Pages? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:55, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The one where two admins said they would block me if I did. Hipocrite (talk) 16:57, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I have now been kicked out of IRC as a result of the discussion in question. Hipocrite (talk) 16:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

My IRC spy (I remain banned) now informs me that I am the topic of discussion in the public channel (which I don't have access to, as I've been banned). Apparently one "Fluffernutter" has called me "very angry," one "Barkingfish" has stated that I am "pro-everyone who is theoretically in the wrong." You see nothing wrong here, Mr. Wales? Hipocrite (talk) 17:50, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

"Barkingfish" has now reportedly called me a "unscrupulous little twat who likes to rule break." This was humorous to one "Fluffernutter." Hipocrite (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

And has now, apparently, threatened bodily harm upon me. Hipocrite (talk) 17:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if it would be productive or advisable, but assuming that Fluffernutter is User:Fluffernutter, a en-Wiki administrator, oversighter and an online ambassador, you might want to raise this issue on his/her talk page.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Your IRC spy, whoever he/she is, is sorely misinformed, Hipocrite. I have made comments that "I don't use channels which publicly log. What I say in here is meant to stay in here, not be sent to unscrupulous little twats who like to rule break." and that, knowing as the users do, I have a bad temper, " I'm all like "fuck with me once, no problem. fuck with me twice, have lunch through a straw for a month >>>:(" - NONE of the comments I've made in those statements referred to you or mentioned you directly or indirectly, Hipocrite. If you have a problem with me, you're welcome to take it to whoever you think fit to deal with it, but don't rely on second hand bullshit.  BarkingFish  18:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I suggest further points are raised at Wikipedia_talk:IRC where there has been an active discussion of the topic, rather than this user page, where if any good points are made they will probably be lost in the ether of archives or need repeating all over again. Thanks Fæ (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't do that. It's not clear that the community has any authority over IRC - while it is clear that if Jimbo told freenode to give him the channel (as he rightly points out), they would. As such, I don't know how to solve the problem without him. Hipocrite (talk) 17:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

PeterSymonds doesn't cite a policy. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Might makes right, dosen't it? Hipocrite (talk) 17:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

(Hipocrite) As several channel ops have posted at Wikipedia_talk:IRC, it seems an entirely appropriate forum. I would expect that Jimbo will check it over if the various discussions reach any conclusion, or indeed ask for him to get more involved on supporting a policy amendment if it is needed (which as it happens, I also think needs improvement in this area, one way or the other). Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll wait for him to say that - thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 17:10, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, in the meantime you may want get on with filing that Arbcom case, as Jimbo has already encouraged you to do. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

No, he said, and I quote "I recommend against that." He has given no positive solution as to how to go about changing the problem over the objection of the entrenched (another one showed up) "Group Contacts." Hipocrite (talk) 17:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh thanks, weird I read that the wrong way around. I still think you would make more progress by looking carefully at the arguments put forward at the IRC discussion page and engaging there. The contributors know quite a bit about policy and the technicalities. --Fæ (talk) 17:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

It's very clear what the IRC admins who are talking there are saying - they have been saying it for years - Jimbo and the WMF don't own the channels, you can't mess with our playground. Do you see anything different? Hipocrite (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)