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:]You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the ]. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. <!-- Template:3RR3 --> The duration of the is 24 hours. ] 19:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
:]You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the ]. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. <!-- Template:3RR3 --> The duration of the is 24 hours. ] 19:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
] article
I'm sorry that you have had to deal with POV pushers alone and it resulted in a block. I should have been there to help you. ] and ] have been clearly gaming the 3RR system by working in tandem on reverting your edits. I will begin watching that page now and, although I am very busy with school, I will try help out where I can. Could you also take a look at the ] article? Johnson is a bit player in the Plame Affair. The article is yet another where political blog writer ] relentlessly reverts and attempts to bully anyone who tries to restore POV. --] 03:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Revision as of 03:28, 5 April 2006
Welcome!
Hello, RonCram, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
Now, I've only had time to take a relatively quick look at the article's talk page, and your edit in particular, but it seems to me that a) The Weekly Standard is a particularly biased source, b) the alleged link between Hussein and Al-Qaeda has always been controversial (and I know this because I've read several books and newspaper articles published prior to 9/11 on the subject of Middle-Eastern based terrorism- Hussein is certainly not a friend to religious extremist Muslims, as he's a secular dictator, not a religious fundamentalist) and c) I'm afraid that your information probably would be better suited to other articles, like the ones on Atta and the 9/11 commisison- I tend to agree with the opinion of others that it isn't terribly connected to Hussein, just because the only source that I saw you reference was a speculative piece in the Standard. If you have a better reference than that, that's another matter. That said, I'm an interested amateur, not an expert, on the subject, and my interest right now is in making it clear that edit-warring is harmful. If you cant talk it out, I suggest seeing Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution.--Scimitar14:17, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I warned you about 3RR. Don't break the rules. I've blocked you for an hour just to show you that there are consequences for violating policy. If you continue, you won't just be hearing from me- you'll be potentially facing an RfC or the Arbitration Committee. Now, if you have a problem with article content, go the proper route. Don't break 3RR. --Scimitar14:30, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
spreading disinformation
Please do not use[REDACTED] to spread disinformation that has been refuted by investigations. You seem to be trying to make it into a soapbox for your conspiracy theory. We have hashed out the arguments on the proper page and you seem to have given up discussing it there. I thought it was because you had come to your senses and realized that your edits were incorrect. Now I see you seem to be trying to slip this disinformation in "under the radar" on other pages. Adding newspaper quotes from 1998 that have since proven to be false is really poor conduct in terms of Misplaced Pages etiquette. Especially when we have already had a debate on another talk page about those very quotes. So please do not continue to conduct yourself in this manner. Put edits on the proper page and let us discuss them there instead of avoiding the debate on the issues. Thank you. --csloat19:14, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
csloat, none of the information in my edits have been refuted by anyone. I am surprised at your accusations. You are the one who has asked me to add information to other pages, such as the Able Danger page and the 9/11 Commission article. None of the newspaper quotes have been proven false and the information remains on the original page. All of my edits added value, context and information readers will find interesting and informative. RonCram01:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Ron, the connection between Able Danger and the Saddam/AQ connection has been refuted over and over by me. Stop playing dumb. I asked you to put it only on pages where it was relevant, not to add it maliciously to pages where it has no relevance so you can keep your conspiracy theory alive. Your edits add nothing of substance to those other pages except to mislead people that this conspiracy theory has credibility.--csloat01:39, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I am preparing conduct RFC's against User:Commodore Sloat and User:Ryan Freisling. They have been harrassing me because I have resisted their attempts to push POV in several articles, including Plame Affair and Larry C. Johnson. They and their POV allies have just lauched an unjustified attack RFC on my conduct. I will eventually need someone to join me to certify both RFC's. Could you please review the situation. If you agree that their conduct is becoming a problem and you haven't already done so, could you weigh in on their talk pages or one of the article talk pages (a pre-requisite to certify a conduct RFC)? It would be appreciated. Thanks! --Mr j galt00:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)-
Plamegate Dispute
Ron, I thought I would chip in my 2 cents. There are days when I find cstoat maddening, (ryanf actually much less so), but cstoat and ryanf are both willing to work in the talk pages, and I think that the debate between people who disagree is important for[REDACTED] to be fair and complete.
I appeciate your contributions too, and just want to chip in. I think you'll find that if you back off on the "You're pushing your POV" and switch to "I think it's important that we say . . .", you'll find there's some common ground. Thanks, TheronJ16:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Theron, I appreciate your trying to mediate. Unfortunately, Ryan and csloat so commonly fight over POV that ignoring their POV-pushing is not possible. I first learned the term of POV-pusher from csloat because he accused me of it when I tried to bring some balance to one of the articles he was editing. It is funny that you find Ryan less of a POV pusher. I have never seen her make a concession no matter how strongly the facts are against her. csloat will make a concession on occasion but not if he thinks the point is crucial to his POV. You can read more of my comments about their conduct on the RFC on Mr j galt. RonCram17:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
POV Brick Wall
I got your message left on my discussion page. The page changes so rapidly and the actual affair changes rapidly too. I will do what I can to bring balance to the page, but my time is for now limited. #1 on my list of changes is the Book of Honor portion of the page where it is speculated that there was damage due to the Plame leak because there is an anonymous star in the book. That is raw speculation. The assertion has zero support anywhere but for Kos and the DU. Even Kos called it unvarnished speculation. Now another page has appeared on Kos citing the[REDACTED] article in support of the position that harm was done. Kos supports wiki, whiki then supports Kos, with no documentation. It's the echo chamber effect. It is irresponsible editing and it must go. Evensong02:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Evensong is correct here. I am still around, just taking a little wikibreak. I strongly support your efforts to restore NPOV on the Plame Affair site. Let me know if I can be of any help.--Mr j galt10:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
At least try to be NPOV, Ron!
Come on Ron - you hit a new low with your edits to the Negroponte and the Shaw articles. Your entries were entirely one-sided. In the case of Negroponte you took a source with a known bias and reputation for distortion, the Weekly Standard, and used it as your exclusive source of information even though Negroponte's own office addressed the issue and you were well aware of it. Your work creating the Shaw article was even worse -- excluding all information about the fact that this guy was a known criminal under FBI investigation and instead pretending his "October Surprise" accusations that were sheer electioneering had some kind of merit. In that case you were also well aware of what you were leaving out since you included the LATimes article from July 2004 mentioning the investigation in your references. Yet you relied exclusively on the Moonie controlled Washington Times for your information and even then only used one side of the story from that source! I know you have your biases and conspiracy theories, and you are welcome to them, but at least try to write things with NPOV in mind, and when you know of another side to a story please include some reference to it. Other editors are less likely to pounce on your edits if you are more thoughtful about them.--csloat04:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The Weekly Standard is a conservative publication. That does not mean contents of the publication should be banned from public discourse. It is your extremely partisan POV that causes you to think so. If you feel information was excluded regarding Negroponte, you are welcome to include it. You know very well that I do not practice censorship in the way you do. Regarding Shaw, I included citations about the charges against Shaw as well as the charges he made, the same charges he continues to make in public. It is truly amusing to have you lecture me on writing with NPOV in mind, because that is something you never do. You never would have included citations on the charges against Shaw if you did not want readers to know that information. RonCram16:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Stop distorting my claims, Ron. I never said it should be banned from public discourse; what I said was that it was blatantly POV to only include their take on something when there is information from more reliable sources that you know is available. I did include the information that you excluded. I know that you do practice censorship by leaving out important parts of the story when you can get away with it and by deleting relevant information while disguising your deletions in other edits. You have done this time and time again. In the Shaw article you only included information suggesting that Shaw was right all along. As for your accusations about me, you are flat out wrong and anyone can see that -- I often include perspectives other my own when I know of such information, and I never censor such information when it is there. As I have said over and over again, my philosophy is that the remedy for false information is to present the true information alongside it rather than delete information that is there. You are the one who presented the Shaw entry as if he was some kind of important hero rather than a criminal, so don't tell me I would have excluded information about him.--csloat17:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not twisting your words csloat. Weekly Standard is a reliable source. CBS (Dan Rather), NBC (trucks rigged to blow up) and NY Times (Jayson Blair) are all less reliable than Weekly Standard, yet you would prefer any of these sources because they are measurably more liberal (see the UCLA study that measured media bias) than Weekly Standard. Your recent critcism of my deleting the date you provided for the Saddam Tapes is a rarity. I discussed the fact the date you provided is probably wrong and why. Your entry failed to provide a citation for the date as well. Regarding your censorship, you have a long history of deleting well-documented and relevant information. You make up any number of excuses (wrong page, not relevant, debunked elsewhere, etc.) that are simply not true. You also have a reputation for rallying fellow editors to your side to delete valid entries as well. I defy you to name one entry you made on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page that would support the idea of a link. In fact, when I first arrived at the page you wanted the article title to include "Conspiracy Theory" in a VERY strong attempt at POV. All this despite the fact the Senate Report on PreWar Intelligence admits Saddam trained al-Qaeda. I can show many, many valid entries you deleted repeatedly. Your sense of fair play needs an overhaul. Regarding Shaw, I do not view him as a criminal. No charges have been filed against him. Shaw lost his job but not because of any malfeasance on his part but apparently only because he exceeded his authority in disclosing the Russians helped moved the WMD out of Iraq. The official reason he left office was because a reorganization of the office cut his position. Calling Shaw a criminal only shows your POV. RonCram23:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
You twisted my words when you claimed that I wanted the Weekly Standard "banned from public discourse." I am not going to debate your ludicrous assertion that a weekly political rag is more reliable than daily news sources with real reporters on staff rather than "commentators." As for the Saddam tapes, please respond to my arguments where I made them if you think they are wrong; as it is you have conceded that the tapes most likely refer to 1990 and that Saddam says he warned us in 1989; you have asserted the nonsensical view that Saddam was referring to three years in the future. I have not censored things Ron and you are just making ridiculous assertions; either back these up with evidence or back off. The Saddam/AQ page is a conspiracy theory and I have put in information on both sides as you are well aware; however, the balance of evidence in nearly every case points to no cooperation between the two (as you are also well aware). The details have been debated to death on that talk page; you have had your say there, so it's disingenuous to bring up various examples out of context here to try to prove I am hurting[REDACTED] somehow by researching these things and insisting on accuracy. The Russians did not help Iraq move WMD anywhere as the evidence shows; read the articles yourself. Shaw is under FBI investigation for misuse of intelligence to enrich his friends with lucrative contracts - that makes him a criminal in my mind, yes (or at least a criminal suspect at this point). And I don't have a strong POV there - I had never heard of Shaw until reading the articles that you put on the bibliography! Anyway I have no interest in debating you on these points; it's pretty clear to me you have a tenuous grip on reality at best. I know I won't convince you, and you won't convince me. The point is not to convince each other but to collaborate as best as possible in creating accurate encyclopedic entries.--csloat23:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
csloat, you continue to attack the Weekly Standard without basis. Some of the most respected names in journalism write for that publication and your attacks against it are purely partisan. My attacks on CBS, et al had to do with the way they manufactured stories. The Saddam Tapes are thought to be from the mid-90s up to post-2000, not from 1990. You continue to make a serious error when you think I have conceded a point merely because I quit talking to you about it. It may be that work has called me away and I never got back to it or it may be that I have simply tired of talking to you. I have told you repeatedly not to assume I have conceded anything just because I have not responded to you. The truth is not established by the last man standing. Your failure to consider the evidence allows you to continue a position that has long been debunked. The assertions I have made about your deleting valid entries can be easily validated. Knowing my ability to research and back up what I say, do you really want me to support these assertions? I don't think so. Your POV does not allow you to honestly evaluate the evidence of Russians moving the WMD. The satellite images back up Shaw and so do the British. Yet you fail to give any credence or value to this evidence. It was nice of you to mention the fact I cited articles not favorable to Shaw. Given that fact, I wonder why you have attacked me for POV? Shaw has made charges against Doug Feith (you should like Shaw for that) and Feith's people have responded in kind. I do not know the full story but since none of Shaw's friends got any contracts, I doubt any criminal activity can be proven against Shaw. and whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty" anyway? Why doesn't John Shaw get the benefit of the doubt? Just because he went public with the fact the Russians helped the Iraqis move their WMD? Your POV is showing. Now, I want to ask a favor of you. Stop posting on my user talk page. If you have something to say about one of my entries, say on the appropriate Talk page. RonCram01:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
High Praise for Weekly Standard
"The preeminent political journal in America."
—Slate.com
"The oracle of American politics"
—CNN's Wolf Blitzer
"...The Weekly Standard has become a forceful presence in the world of political opinion...It is the most intelligent, aggressive and well-written publication out there."
—National Journal
"Has The Weekly Standard become the most powerful magazine, Mara?"
"Brit, it certainly has."
—exchange between anchorman Brit Hume and reporter Mara Liasson, Fox News Channel
"The Standard's editors have inaugurated one of the most interesting Beltway debates in years."
—The New Republic
"DC's opinion makers are reading The Weekly Standard."
—PRWEEK
" is the magazine I get most grumpy about when it's not delivered."
—Abe Rosenthal, former editor, The New York Times
"I don't think you can do without it if you want to know what's going on in Washington."
—Robert Novak
"Widespread reaction to the editorial proved that of the roughly 65,000 people who read the Standard each week, many are what you might call important."
—GQ Magazine
"The Weekly Standard is required reading up here. You have to see it to be a part of the conversation."
—John Kasich, former House Budget Committee Chair
" Washington's better read political magazines"
—The Economist
"The Weekly Standard is a must-read for people in Washington."
—Jack Nelson, The Los Angeles Times
"The Weekly Standard the advantage of possessing...editors whose insights and arguments are uncommonly provocative... know Washington, know politics and have demonstrated over the years a rare capacity for civil and unusually sensible argument and analysis."
—David Broder, The Washington Post
"...you speak in two very influential pulpits. You're on television a lot of the time...and you're the editor of an influential magazine."
—Peter Jennings, ABC News
"The Weekly Standard is a 'must read' for anyone interested in American politics and American life."
—William J. Bennett
Disruption of Misplaced Pages
Ron I must again implore you to stop disrupting wikipedia. You keep hurling personal insults -- that I am censoring you or stalking you -- meanwhile you are censoring valid information about the only real study of the OIF Documents in existence. You also made it clear in your requests that other people "come and join the fun" bashing me and Ryan that you consider all of this a sort of pissing contest. It is not. This is an encyclopedia. I realize you don't agree with the things I have to say here but my goal is to keep[REDACTED] accurate and well sourced. My goal is not to play games with you or anyone else. I ask that you treat[REDACTED] as an encyclopedia, not as a playground.--csloat18:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. The duration of the block is 24 hours. William M. Connolley19:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry that you have had to deal with POV pushers alone and it resulted in a block. I should have been there to help you. csloat and RyanFreisling have been clearly gaming the 3RR system by working in tandem on reverting your edits. I will begin watching that page now and, although I am very busy with school, I will try help out where I can. Could you also take a look at the Larry C. Johnson article? Johnson is a bit player in the Plame Affair. The article is yet another where political blog writer csloat relentlessly reverts and attempts to bully anyone who tries to restore POV. --Mr j galt03:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
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