Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:45, 20 January 2012

Psychology B‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PsychologyWikipedia:WikiProject PsychologyTemplate:WikiProject Psychologypsychology B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Medicine: Psychiatry B‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Psychiatry task force (assessed as Mid-importance).

Archives
Archive 2004 Archive 2005 Archive 2006-1 Archive 2006-2 /Archive Feb 2006 - Oct 2007 /Archive Nov 2007 - Dec 2008 Dec 2008-August, 2011 /Multiple personality controversy

Information needs to be updated to include the newest information

I still do not like how this fore part is worded. It gives too much credit to those who do not understand DID and therefore do not believe it occurs.

Here is an outline that might be of help. See books published in 2011 such as E. Howells book for more information.

From E. Howell's book: Once in a GREAT while a "bad therapist" can lead someone to create an temporary and extremely limited alter, but it is not like the real thing.

ANP - Apparently Normal Parts EP - Emotional Parts

Complex Dissociative Disorders

DDNOS-1 Dissociative Disorder-Not Otherwise Described - (One ANP and Two or more EP's)

DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder - (At least Two ANP's and Two or more EP's) 1. Time Loss. 2. There are at least 2 Apparently Normal Parts. 3. Epileptic-like seizures and somatic issues. (proposed additions in the DSV-V)

• Some parts might be fixated in traumatic memories (as in the Simple PTSD and C-PTSD) and are chronically aroused while others are hypo-aroused

Also of importance:

Secondary Structural Dissociation. (SSD) SSD - Includes DDNOS-1. This is characterized by dividedness of 2 or more defensive subsystems. For example, there may be different EP's who are devoted to flight, fight, freeze, total submission and so on.

Tertiary Structural Dissociation (TSD) This is DID. There ARE 2 or more ANP's who perform aspects of daily living, such as work in the workplace, child-rearing, and playing as well as 2 or more EP's. ~ty (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard of this, and this is not what I understand to be proposed for the DSM-5. The proposed third criteria for DID is "Causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." reference here It was added in an effort to acknowledge multiple personality in non-western cultural contexts. If "E. Howell" is a real doctor or psychiatric researcher, there's no reason his ideas can't be included. However this is pretty long and the article is already pretty long, so you might want to put in just a reference to the book at the end. --Bluejay Young (talk) 22:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You mean her ideas. Elizabeth F. Howell, a psychoanalyst at NYU. They aren't particularly new claims, just newly printed books, so it's kind of cute that the person who brought it up presented her work as some new understanding that ultimately demolishes all criticism and everyone who disagrees is just out of touch. She's written and coauthored some books and papers. The critics of DID are already well aware of them. There's no reason the article would need to be rewritten in any way. DreamGuy (talk) 20:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Correct, it has nothing to do with the proposed DSMV, and yes it is not new, it is however well excepted by many who study trauma and is another way to identify DID.~ty (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The Haunted Self is a book by the original researchers. The Haunted Self: Structural Dissociation and the Treatment of Chronic Traumatization (Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology) Onno van der Hart (Author), Ellert R. S. Nijenhuis (Author), Kathy Steele (Author)

E. Howell discusses this subject in Chapter 3 of her 2011 book and that chapter can be found online in PDF format. Understanding and Treating Dissociative Identity Disorder: A Relational Approach (Relational Perspectives Book Series) Elizabeth F. Howell (Author) ~ty (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Strongly agree. So much so that I'm posting a separate section at the foot of this page about this and related matters. Thanks for your interest and concern, and I hope you've mounted up for a long ride!Tom Cloyd (talk) 02:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Controversy Section Removal

I strongly suggest that the entire section on Controversy be eliminated. It can go elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, but it does not belong on this page. DID is a dissociative disorder, it is in the DSMIV and proposed to be in the newer DSMV. The topic might be a controversial pop culture topic, but as far as a mental health disorder it is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tylas (talk • contribs) 20:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. The emphasis given this minor issue (it is NOT an issue in mental health professional circles) in this article, is disproportionate to it triviality. It suggest that the article was written by individuals lacking adequate familiarity with the serious literature on this topic, where the controversiality of the diagnosis is simply not taken up - because it is no longer controversial.Tom Cloyd (talk) 02:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

There are a significant number of sources published in reliable journals and by respected publishing houses indicating that there is a strong belief that at least some DID patients had their symptoms produced iatrogenically through therapy. A lot of those sources are already included in the page. Sources are not removed because editors disagree with them. A lot of professionals apparently think, and publish their thoughts, that DID may not be real - this should remain on the page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of external links

I have had a couple of links that I added deleted as spam. http://www.dissociation.org.uk/ is a UK educational site for those affected by DID. The other http://www.firstpersonplural.org.uk/ is a UK charity for survivors of DID. I am not affiliated to either organisation. Neither are particularly controversial sites and both are helpful for anyone researching DID. I would like to put them back up, but will not if it can be explained to me why they are unsuitable for entry. petitvie (talk —Preceding undated comment added 05:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC).

External links are for encyclopedic-level sources of information, not advocacy groups or geographically-based organizations. If we were to include these we'd have to include every a ton of others, and there's no good reason for it. DreamGuy (talk) 22:32, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Mental health professional's first reactions to this article

Warm greetings to you all! I'm signing on as a new editor to this article. I'm not new to Misplaced Pages, having been here for a few years, during which I've had a variety of involvements, as my user page documents. Two things that might be notable about me, though: I'm a mental health professional who treats DID, and I'm a formalist when it comes to rhetoric in general and writing in particular. I have extensive formal training and experience in social science and psychology research. I value clear thinking, cogent writing, and good sourcing.

So...first reactions:

1. Copy editing and rhetoric - I see major problems here, and I'll deal with those first.

2. Sourcing - more current literature, including some of the recently published literature surveys, needs to be brought on board, and some of the older references dropped. There is a lot of archaic and simply misinformed literature in print and on the web re: DID. NONE of that should be referenced here, I would urge. We want the good stuff, and that comes from professionals. "DID" is a concept THEY invented, and they do the research and theory development on this topic.

3. Priorities - as a clinician and someone very concerned in community education re: major public health issues (and I consider dissociation and dissociative disorders to be such), I consider it our first obligation here to correctly and fairly represent the topics and assertions in the current professional literature on DID. In that area in particular, major work needs to be done on this article. All else (e.g., "controversy", should be dealt with later, if at all.

4. Article form - I think there are some improvements which could be made that would present the material in a more useful way. I'll make specific proposals, and ask for comments, in the future.

I do have other commitments, one of which is to the PTSD article, in which I have taken a major interest for several years. This means that I'll be proceeding here with deliberation and calmness, and that allows plenty of time for community discussion, which I invite, appreciate, and enjoy.

It may interest you to know that I have surveyed the major contributors to this article in the last 2.5 years. There are four. Two are self-identified multiples, one is a bit of a science nut like me (hello there WLU!), and the fourth, like the first three, also appears NOT to be a mental health professional. One thing that means is that there is a real chance that I can be helpful here, due to my training, experience, and perspective.

About editor/contributors who are multiples: I think it is particularly valuable to have involved here individuals who are living with DID. That they are doesn't make them experts, any more than my having a brain tumor (which I don't!) would make me a neural surgeon, but they do have a highly valuable perspective to offer, part of which is their encounter with the gross misinformation about DID that continues to make it into popular culture AND their experiences with various aspects of the health care delivery system in their locale, wherever that may be. We are fortunate to have some people with DID participating here. If there are other editors here who have not so identified themselves, consider doing so, if you are comfortable with this and see value in this action.

This topic is both complex and important. I'm showing up to make this article better for both clinical (multiples and clinicians) and non-clinical readers. We owe them no less, I think. And...I'm glad I'm not alone here! (Comments welcome!)

Tom Cloyd (talk) 03:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

If you are going to be removing sources, you need to provide more current sources indicating why - particularly, indicating that the opinions of the professional field have changed. Your opinion of "what's current" is inadequate. Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball, we normally lag several months to several years behind what is discussed during conferences. Please do not remove information unless you can indicate why, and verify this with a reliable source. Generally controversies are explored rather than eliminated. Accordingly, if these old sources have been criticized, please provide citations and summaries of these criticisms indicating the professional literature has changed. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:19, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

You know, if you treat DID patients you already come in to the topic with a very strong bias that what you are doing is not some outdated belief system like phrenology or snake oil. You have a natural desire to let the world believe that what you are doing is valid and scientific. That's fine for your personal beliefs, but it's not something you can rewrite the article to say. We need to follow the policies here, and we cannot let the article become the mouthpiece of a person who is promoting a specific belief for the basis of his job. DreamGuy (talk) 23:49, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Dream Guy

The leaders in research in the area of Dissociative Identity Disorder are not just personal beliefs. The information that is being cited is from those who are writing and working in this field to day and who understand it. Have you read current science based information from experts such as E. Howell, James L. Spira, Suzette Boon, Deborah Bray Haddock, Onno van der Hart, Ellert R. S. Nijenhuis, Kathy Steele - past president for the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation. The ISSTD is also a great place to read about current research on DID.

Reply to Dream Guy

I was the one that removed and/or moved the items in question. I believe Tom Cloyd just put them back, for the most part, to what I had done. Granted I went too fast for the soldiers that guard this page. People come to Misplaced Pages, in this case, to see what DID actually is. They were hit, and are now again due to your undo's, with a bunch of China and Sybil stuff and controversy. When I go to a Misplaced Pages page on DID, I want to know what the leaders in the field say DID is, not a bunch of journalist, book writers or movie makers.~ty 04:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Re: changes made to heading levels and structure

Many people do not understand that headings in an article give it an outline structure, and in proper English, one can never subdivide a section of an outline into just ONE sub-section. First, that is illogical (dividing something must at least split it). Second, inasmuch as this rule is taught in all English classes of which I know, in the English speaking world, AND evidenced in every modern printed book and encyclopedia I've ever seen (and with a couple of masters degrees, I've seen a few!), disrespect of this rule makes the article appear illiterate. (Read the article linked to in the first sentence for a longer discussion of proper outline form.) Therefore, I have, by various means, corrected in this article all such singular subdivisions (if the phrase even makes sense, which it doesn't). Tom Cloyd (talk) 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is bound by it's manual of style, which may differ from other professional standards. Please refer to the MOS when adjusting headings (see also WP:SECTION). WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Good advice, surely. However, your references are overly general. If you are to object to what I have proposed, you need to provide specific policy or guideline references to support your objection.

WP:MOS (about which I do know, of course) does not cover everything.

Misplaced Pages:SECTION does not address the issue I delineate above, and, in fact, contains clear logical inconsistencies. To wit:

A page can and should be divided into sections, using the section heading syntax.

This is the opening sentence. Then, the very first section of the article is subdivided into section <- note the NON-PLURAL. As I have said, it is logically impossible to subdivide something into one thing. Yet I see this all over Misplaced Pages. Again, repeating myself, that this is flatly NOT the convention in standard English can be confirmed simply by looking at the next 5 randomly chosen English books you may pick up: Their contents listings will NEVER make this error.

WP:MOS itself, including specifically Section headings, does not either.

By default, then, the guidelines that apply must be those of the recognized style manuals for English currently in use. This is just common sense. To put it somewhat differently, the recognized style manuals tell us what to do, and Misplaced Pages does not contest their advice. Therefore our headings need to be corrected.

Any problems with this?Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what specific edit you are proposing, so I can't comment. What section headings are you thinking of adding, removing or changing? Are you adding, removing or changing any text within any of those headings? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:30, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Your response: Absurd, obstructionist, baffling. What part of this (the very first sentence above) is unclear?

"...headings in an article give it an outline structure, and in proper English, one can never subdivide a section of an outline into just ONE sub-section."

That assertion is then supported by the text following. Did you even read this?

This version is correct, according to standard English. The current version is not, and I will be correcting that.Tom Cloyd (talk)

Reply to Tom Cloyd

Thank you Sir. Your services are greatly appreciated. I have DID and am interested in cleaning up this article as well. I found many things in it offensive. I do not know all the ins and outs of Misplaced Pages as you seem to, but I hope I can offer some insight from where I stand. ~ty (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding my reversions of 2012.01.13 and 2012.01.14 concerning DID and "controversy"

Reason for reversions

"There is a great deal of controversy surrounding the topic of DID." Bunk. This lede paragraph, one of several addressing "controversy" and DID which were recently removed by an apparently well-read editor, were recently reverted by another. I have reversed these reversions. This material simply does not belong here. Much of this article clearly is coming from writers who are insufficiently familiar with both the professional literature on DID and the present state of the diagnosis in the professional community. "Multiple personality" is a lurid topic in some regions of the popular press, and those seeking the lurid (e.g., some journalists who write books on DID) can fan the flames forever. This doesn't make the topic controversial, nor does it qualify such writings for inclusion in this article about a clinical psychology/psychiatry diagnosis that is gravely disabling and challenging to treat. Pop culture does not belong here.

In the professional literature there is little or on controversy regarding the legitimacy of the diagnosis. There is certainly discussion about which model of its etiology is most accurate (excluding the model which suggests that it is created by the suggestion or manipulation of a therapist - an idea which has NO standing in the professional community). There is also difference of opinion about which treatment approach is best, and...about a number of other things. This discussion is normal, healthy, and is NOT in any way indicative of "controvery". All diagnoses in the consensus diagnostic protocols of the DSM-IV and OCD-10 receive such discussion.

The sheer column inches devoted in this article to the purported "controversial" nature of DID, when I arrived here a few days ago, was appalling to me. There has been a great struggle in the profession to delineate the nature, bounds, dynamics, and legitimacy of this diagnosis, and the struggle has led to its full legitimacy in the professional mental health community. Yes, you can find professionals who still dispute the diagnosis, but that is true of virtually every diagnosis in the DSM-IV and the ICD-9-10. There will always be such outliers. The clear consensus, however, is what is expressed in those same authoritative documents, where there is no suggestion that the diagnosis is questionable or controversial in any way. That settles it.

Why do I say that? Because "DID" is a term and concept OWNED by the professional mental health community. AND because it is our agree-upon obligation here at Misplaced Pages to summarize the best literature on any topic which is available. That means that the noise of the popular press, if it is relevant to this article at all, should get attended to ONLY after the professional literature receives full, fair, and adequate treatment here. The article as it presently stands does not meet this standard.

Lay opinion and should never trump professional literature on any mental health topic, and especially on the topic of Dissociative Identity Disorder. If this were not so, we should expect to see insertion in the Misplaced Pages article on lithic stratigraphy (OK, I don't know if this article exists, but the example stands) several column inches about the theories coming from some Biblical literalists that it was the Devil who laid down all those rock layers, to lead men to doubt the Word of God which clearly says (and it does NOT) that the world was created in 5000+ years ago. Oh...and those fossils which appear to show evolutionary progression - we must make very notable mention in various paleontology articles that they too are the work of the Devil!

We do not allow such nonsense because we have agreed that Misplaced Pages articles should present a synopsis of the best thought we have on any subject. That current best thought re: DID is summarized in the professional literature coming from the clinical psychology and psychiatry communities. I cannot recall ever seeing mention of "the DID controversy" in this literature - not in 3 years of graduate school and 25 years of clinical practice.

It is a matter of priorities, pure and simple. Material about "DID controversy" might belong in the article I understand exists on "DID in popular culture", because that's where the controversy lives on - popular culture. In the professional mental health conmunity, the consensus is clear, and expressed in the DSM-IV and OCD-10.

Justification of my position

Let's look at some major references on the topic:

• Merck (2010) - No mention of controversy at all. But Merck is always synoptic, and maybe there just wasn't room. Let's look further.
• Steinberg, M. (2001). The stranger in the mirror: dissociation - the hidden epidemic (316 pp.). This major work on dissociation and the disorders in which it is prominent, by the psychiatrist who developed the SCID-D diagnostic inventory, addresses the "controversy" in her ch. 3, under "Myth #6 - DID is not a real illness" (pp. 26-27). Her summary is that multiple scientific investigations have validated the reality of the disease and its symptoms, and that assertions to the contrary are based solely on anecdotal evidence and hearsay. She backs up her assertions with careful sourcing. But this was written over 10 years ago, and may need updating. Let's investigate further, after a brief digression...

One of the topics taken up in graduate program in clinical psychology/psychiatry is symptom faking (factitious disorders) and iatrogenic causality. Basically, we are advised always to be initially skeptical of a clients' symptom presentation, until we can reasonably rule out causes OTHER than legitimate etiology. Some diagnoses are more vulnerable to this problem than others, and several have unique problems associated with them. Then, too, there is the problem of differential diagnosis - e.g., depression due to a medication side-effect is not legitimately termed "clinical depression". The DSM formally addresses this problem in diagnosis after diagnosis, including the dissociative disorders.

If there is indeed a real problem with faked or iatrogenic symptoms relative to DID, serious professional literature on DID should validate this problem and address it. We already know that Steinberg (2001) does not. Let's next consider...

• Haddock, D.B. (2001). The dissociative identity disorder sourcebook. (311 pp.) Written for professionals and informed laypersons, this book was very highly praised when it was published, and is still an essential reference. Haddock writes (p. 129) of clients' possible rejection of a DID diagnosis (not all are ready to accept a diagnosis this grave), but not of any professional controversy about the concept. Her discussion of differential diagnosis (pp. 76-77) makes no mention of there being a problem with faked or iatrogenic symptoms.
• Spira, J. L., Yalom, I.D., eds. (1996). Treating dissociative identity disorder (388 pp). Note that this was published well before both Steinberg and Haddock, which simply means that it was written closer to the time when there WAS a debate in professional clinical psychology/psychiatry as to the legitimacy of the DID diagnosis. It is also a very notable publication because of the outstanding roster of contributors the editor rounded up, most of whom are still very prominent in the field today. However, we see here exactly what is seen in Haddock: possible client rejection of the diagnosis is addressed; professional controversy and iatrogenic or faked symptoms is not.

WHERE is the alleged "controversy"? Maybe it took a while for the profession to catch up with something the popular press already knew. Let's look at some more recent major publications...

• van der Hart, O., et al. (2006). The haunted self: Structural dissociation and the treatment of chronic traumatization (418 pp.). This extraordinary synoptic treatment of DID and other trauma-related disorders (PTSD, Borderline Personality Disorder, etc. is a major milestone in the history of thought about such disorders. It has received exceptional reviews by a number of luminaries in the field. In the book's detailed index, there are no main entries addressing conceptual controversy relative to DID, nor any for iatrogenic symptoms, symptom faking, or factitious symptoms. The entries in the index under "assessment" take up almost an entire column on a two-column page, and there is no mention under this subheading of any of these topics, either.
• Howell, E. F. (2011). Understanding and treating dissociative identity disorder (308 pp). This work, both articulate and scholarly, is one of my personal favorites. The author has previously authored a well-received book on the topic of dissociation, and here addresses treatment of dissociative disorders in a manner that is both accessible to educated laypersons and exceptionally valuable to professionals. The first rule of treatment is "get the diagnosis right". She devotes 18 pages to assessment, producing the most useful statement on the subject I've yet seen. Interestingly, she does address factitious disorders (pp. 159-160), and as is her treatment of many things in this book, her remarks are detailed, thorough, and very useful. But she does not suggest that this issue is a significant problem, or that it is due to iatrogenic causes.

There is one other reference I'd like to review - Dell, P.F. & O'Neil, J.A., eds. (2009). Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders: DSM-V and beyond (898 pp). This award winning book is a review of the literature which aims to supplant all others. My copy is due to arrive any day. I'll add to this review what I find when it arrives, but I honestly don't expect to see a deviation from the pattern already established: Professionals don't take up the alleged controversy surrounding DID because there is none.

So, why should this article? It shouldn't. Readers should not be misled, nor be forced to wade through inches of summary of the irrelevant ruminations of idle journalists, people out to disparage clinical psychology/psychiatry in general, and others who simply haven't anything useful to say. Let's stick the good science we do have, and theories based on that science, and on actual clinical experience. We can do no better, and our readers deserve no less.

We do not shrink from controversy in professional mental health - witness the ongoing flap about (alleged) overuse of anti-psychotic and psycho-stimulant medications. That there is none to be seen regarding DID should be noted and respected. The controversy is over, and has been for years.

If someone can come up with a professional quality reference that treats this alleged controversy with any real seriousness, let's consider referencing it in the article. But, we still have to content with the fact that the vast majority of serious thinkers in this field simply see no need to address the topic. Why should we? I can think of no good reason to do so, other than in the history section, and there we should not let the material use up valuable article real estate which would better be used addressing topics like assessment, treatment, and outcome, all of which are presently given seriously inadequate coverage in this article. I, for one, intend to redress this.

I have taken some very real time to write this because I want to dispense with this issue once and for all. We have important things to do with this article. Rehashing old issues is surely not one of them.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 07:21, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Only two of the books linked appear to be published by an academic publisher (Routledge). My preference is generally to draw from the published literature (i.e. journal articles), though of course books are also permissible. The fact that there are so many sources that actively criticize DID indicates that yes, at least historically there was a controversy. It may be ongoing, which also requires demonstration via sources. That'll take time to dig up. It's possible the field has polarized, with neither group citing or discussing the other. That still means there are at least two sides and a controversy. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I cannot agree more with this statement! KUDOS!

Professionals don't take up the alleged controversy surrounding DID because there is none. ~ty (talk) 18:06, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

, , WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

"References" - plural? Uh...no

This is a mistake an undergraduate might make. It would be distressing for a grad. student to make it. To wit: When you have a document with a single note or reference, the list itemizing such is singular, for it contains only ONE element. When there is more then one, the plural form is called for. WP:LAYOUT does NOT take a position on this, but discusses ONLY the later case (read it - carefully, please). Since it is not covered, the issue reverts to "common law", which in this case is "common practice". My knowledge of such practice derives from the fact of my seven years of grad. school, and my experience teaching, and grading research reports written in, undergrad. experimental psychology.

Also, it's just common sense. If you have one, don't refer to it in plural!

Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:06, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It'd be simpler to call the "Footnotes" section "References" (for that is what they are and any scientific/medical journal will call them this) and include the single item listed as "reference" in them. WP:LAYOUT specifically excludes "reference" (it clearly takes a position on this: "With the exception of "Bibliography", the heading should be plural even if it lists only a single item"), because articles are supposed to have multiple sources. "Reference" is discouraged, because it will become inappropriate as soon as some other editor adds another one. And: yes, I have seen that "Sadock 2002" (which properly should be "Sadock and Sadock 2002", think) occurs twice in the "Footnotes", but with two almost adjacent pages (681 and 683). Either merge the two ("681-683") or, if page 682 really is completely inappropriate to include, just make two separate references. Makes things simpler and less dissociated... Apart from this (in the end rather minor) quibble: kudos for vastly improving this article! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 09:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Ha! I yield on the "References" matter - how could I have missed that in WP:LAYOUT? But I did. I still think my line of thought makes more sense, and I KNOW it to be the practice at least some of the time, but I don't know what the style sheet of a random sample of peer-reviewed journals would say. Interesting question, but we do have bigger fish to fight than this (I just love mixing metaphors!). Glad you like the rest of what I've done. It's early in the day, and others have yet to be heard from.

Haven't considered the format of the article's end-material, as I've been too busy being annoyed by the main article content, although surely not by all of it. Some is quite acceptable, or even better, I'd say.

I don't yet have access to my copy of Sadock (which I think is actually "Sadock, Sadock, and Kaplan") - I just moved. So, I can't respond to your comment there. I didn't add the original reference. Thanks for your comments. Tom Cloyd (talk) 11:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Controversy and History sections - in need of a major re-write

"Controversy"

First problem: It's way too long. The topic, if addressed at all, is properly seen only as historic, and minor mention may be made of it in the history section. It's simply unbalanced to give it this much space. It suggest lack of familiarity with the professional literature.

Second problem: That it appears at all! The existence of a FEW professional papers arguing that the diagnosis is illegitimate, etc., etc., is far outweighed by the clear consensus in the profession that the diagnosis is legitimate, period. DID is controversial ONLY in non-professional circles, and certainly not always there, either. This article should not read like a tabloid presentation of this topic.

That this is taken up here at all cannot be justified by NPOV (see quoted lede sentence below), which does NOT require that we bring into the article every hair-brained idea in print. If so, then I want to see a major section on my favorite bogus DID etiological model: space aliens have implanted their children in various people's brains, and the kids won't shut up. I read it on the Internet, so it must be true!

"Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." Significant is the key term here. I have demonstrated in my section above re: "Controversy" that this topic is not currently significant, and hasn't been for a long time.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow. Just wow. Your opinion on this topic is so strong you falsely believe that an opinion you disagree with must be "hare-brained" and "insignificant". Claiming it's not currently significant is just nonsense, as there are more and more books, articles and other reports coming out supporting that idea that DID/MPD is either nonexistent or hugely misdiagnosed coming out all the time. You simply are either not familiar with these works (and ignored the references made to them in this article) or dislike them so much you want to ignore them. That's your own personal POV. That cannot be made to take over the article. DreamGuy (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Dream Guy

The first thing I ever learned in Graduate School is to disregard popular media. I think you are off base Sir. How is a story in the popular media relevant to DID. Is a war story relevant to PTSD? I do understand when people think of MPD they think of Sybil, or Tara, or Fight Club or any of the other media based stories, but again, this has nothing to do with a serious page on DID. I have DID. It is not nonexistent. Bringing stories such as Sybil into this has nothing to do with if it is misdiagnosed or not. ~ty (talk) 18:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

What popular media are you even talking about? The critics of MPD/DID have been published in respectable journals, and have produced mainstream books. It is laughable for someone to claim that these are only popular media and are not significant. Someone would either have to be colossally ignorant or outright lying. Considering that Tom Cloyd claims to be a professional, I would hate to think he is that ignorant, but of course I don't want to believe he is a liar either. But simply claiming it is only popular media and insignificant because you say so doesn't make it so. As far as Sybil goes, this was a hugely famous case. It was not fiction, it was a real therapist making professional conclusions. The publication and popularization of those conclusions can be directly linked to a massive increase of diagnoses for multiple personalities. It is one of two cases that all therapists who know anything about MPD/DID refer back to, and it is frequently cited in professional books on the case. We aren't talking about some TV show here. Of course this topic belongs on this article, and it is frankly mind-boggling that anyone would seriously try to argue otherwise. Oh... well, of course the therapist in the Sybil case has since been proven to have fabricated much or all of the claims, which makes all the people who promoted it as the best example of this alleged mental illness looks silly, so now of course they want to come up with any lame excuses they can to pretend it never existed. That's intellectually dishonest. Now, "Ty," you appear to be here to try to vindicate your own personal belief that you have more than one personality. That's not how Misplaced Pages works, but I can see how you would not know that. I can also see maybe how you never heard about Sybil and don't understand it's importance in the history of this topic. But someone we are supposed to believe is a professional in the field shouldn't be ignorant of the case and its importance. Misplaced Pages cannot ignore this topic and censor it from the article just because some people with strong biases want it to be removed. DreamGuy (talk) 20:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to dreamguy

"As far as Sybil goes, this was a hugely famous case. It was not fiction, it was a real therapist making professional conclusions."

This I will agree with.

• As for your next point --- in all the professional books I had read on this topic, and there are many, not once have I ran across mention of "Sybil." I have read accounts of many cases however.
• Now the arguments on this page are starting to make sense. You, dreamguy believe the bunk in Nathan's book, but I sure hope you are not part of http://www.fmsfonline.org. That would be an extreme POV and COI to be sure! You are not part of that organization are you?
• As for your next point, I have no need to vindicate my personal beliefs because I don't fall for the mumbo jumbo of the popular media. I know what I have - dissociated parts of the self, not multiple personalities and I am not as weak as you seem to think.
• I really doubt that Misplaced Pages supports fanatics that try and promote popular media over current science.
• As for the next matter you bring up, of course I have heard of Sybil and read articles on it, but no I have not read the actual book (1974 pub) and have no interest in it either. I do understand the book/movies importantance to the popular media version of MPD, yes.
• I say the opposite from you - Sir. Misplaced Pages should not keep popular media dribble in the article just because two old time editors want it here and those same two are guarding the gates and not allowing anything on the page they do not deem acceptable.

~ty (talk) 18:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

No, I am not part of that organization. But if I were it would make no difference to my right to edit this article. Your declaring them to be extreme and unacceptable only proves that you have no basis upon which to make judgments about what is acceptable here or not. Some of that group's members (or former members, I have no idea who is currently involved with them) are highly respected, reliable sources. Elizabeth Loftus, for example, is the world's foremost expert on recovered memories and is extremely well respected around the world. I believe she was associated with that group. Coincidentally (?), in the past this article had someone trying to edit Misplaced Pages with an agenda to discredit that organization in every way possible. That editor was banned from Misplaced Pages for constant POV pushing and the use of multiple sock puppet accounts. Now we see some new accounts acting in much the same way. And, again, the claims that this is popular media are nonsense. Anyone who claims to know anything about this topic would be very familiar with this case and its importance to this topic as a whole. It is, unquestionably, one of the most famous cases and certainly the most influential, both in the minds of the public as well as the actions of professionals. The content in the article is well cited and in fact already conclusively demonstrates its importance. All we have are two naysayers who have expressed extreme POVs just trying to declare whatever they want to believe to be the absolute truth. With bias that strong you should not be trying to edit an encyclopedia. If you want to make activist stances on topics, you are in the wrong place. DreamGuy (talk) 02:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Update: about my edits in the "Controversy" section

I HAVE decided to dive into this section and try to fix a number of problems. I've tried to document my changes carefully.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Is it "controversy" or is it "professional ignorance"?

This "controversy" topic is a great example of the reason why we need professional involvement in this article. As a mental health professional, I can offer a couple of relevant facts I'm aware of which well may not be common knowledge:

1. Clinicians are casual, to put it mildly, about keeping up on research literature. Many are 15 or more years behind (depending upon when they left graduate school). As a class, they are very busy with practice management (their business), clinical activities (their clients), and families. Many never cared much about research to begin with, which is why they went into clinical practice rather than academia. Even academics have trouble keeping up with the research journals; clinicians usually just give up, unless, like me, they're a bit fanatical (and unmarried, which really helps). THUS, it is likely that as a group clinicians, most of whom do NOT treat trauma or dissociative disorders, are NOT up to date about the scientific status of these topical areas. A couple of studies cited in the first paragraph of this Controversy section reflect this, although the studies do have some serious methodological issues (small samples, in the face of consider parametric variance, coupled with significant subject non-response).

This doesn't mean there is controversy about DID. It means there is ignorance. The two are hardly the same, and to call one the other is to completely mis-characterize the problem. Why am I so confident? Read on...

2. Very little mention is made, even in professional clinical circles, of the science behind the diagnostic categories published in the DSM-IV. Behind this well known tome there is a published set of research reports (multiple volumes, I'm told) documenting the research done SPECIFICALLY to validate these categories. The diagnostic categories do not make it into print until adequate validity is achieved in a clinical setting. When there are problems, the categories are re-conceived, and the research is done again. THIS IS THE REASON WHY THE DSM-V HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR YEARS - they are working to tighten up some of the diagnostic categories.

Conclusion: If it appears in the DSM, it has demonstrated diagnostic validity.

This doesn't mean that clinicians, much less the general public, knows or appreciates this. Nevertheless, it's fact. This demonstrated validity is a major, major development in the history of clinical practice, and it all began with the DSM-III. Again, not common knowledge, but a fact nevertheless.

So, again, don't mistake ignorance for controversy. I can find people who still think the earth is flat. Does that mean that we have controversy on our hands? I'll let you decide...Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Yet more personal opinions being presented as fact. As far as point one goes, lots of people are behind on current research, many decades behind, yet you seem to want to believe that only those people who do not support DID/MPD are behind and those who do support it must be up to date. Many people would argue just the opposite. As far as point 2, lots of things in the DSM have been controversial. Homosexuality was in there as a disorder for a while, for example. This article is not supposed to be the mouthpiece of the DSM. Similarly, the DSM is very very slow to be changed to meet consensus of the outside world of professionals, and those professionals themselves are slow in changing their minds. By the time the DSM is finally released it reflects already very old ideas. DreamGuy (talk) 17:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to All Editors

I do not want to be as brash as Tom Cloyd in this point, but he is right. I am sorry, but please give those of us that would like to work on this a chance and with an open mind read it. You might end up agreeing with us in the end. ~ty 04:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

If the controversy section is titled Professional Ignorance, then I will agree that there should indeed be one.

~ty (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of paragraph beginning "It is suggested that on rare occasion symptoms that mimick (sic) DID can be created iatrogenically..."

This paragraph is simply incoherent, and concludes with citation (including quotes) of a study that has NO bearing whatsoever. If there is an argument actually asserted here, it escapes me. I refuse to attempt to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. "Out, damned spot..." And so it came to be. Good riddance.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

"History"

This contains much interesting material, but some of it is off-topic, and the narrative flow is jumbled in spots, such that the article would benefit from a significant rewrite. I do appreciate the meticulous sourcing in evidence here, though. Someone put some real work into this section. I respect that.

There are some interesting sources used, but I fear that some are more cherry-picked than representative of the literature. Some also look suspiciously likely to have been mis-characterized. I have elected to leave this mostly alone for now, until I can acquire the sources (some of which are due to arrive in my office very soon). I can then do the rewrite with the proper materials in hand.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding my removal of "Sybil" material from "History" section

This is not relevant to the history of this diagnosis. No detailed history of the concept of dissociation, or of the dissociative disorders, that I have yet been exposed to takes up this materials. We should follow this model and omit mention of it here.

The implication that the book about Sybil had influence upon the mental health profession is unlikely, and in any case this assertion is the opinion of the writer - no citation for it is given. It is more reasonable to assume that the case arose, was treated, and was written about because of the growing professional interest in the subject, which began in the 19th century with Janet, than to assert that some trade press book had a magical influence upon academic, research, and clinical psychotherapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists.

In any case, this is a popular culture topic, and irrelevant to the development of thinking and practice relative to the diagnosis of DID. It can be treated in an article on DID and pop. culture, or DID and literature, or whatever.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It's very relevant to the history of the diagnosis, as described in several books of the topic. Only someone trying to whitewash the history of it could possibly make such a statement. Plenty of citations were given for its inclusion here. DreamGuy (talk) 17:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Dream Guy

I am sorry Mr. Dream guy. Can you tell us why you have such strong feelings about keeping things like the Sybil story here. I don't understand at all. I must agree with Tom here. I know the story of Shirly Mason, but she is just one of many who had DID. There was a brilliant book written by Flora Rheta Schreiber about "Sybil" as well as two movies, but this has nothing to do with a serious page on DID anymore than any other story of "multiples." Schreiber might have brought the disorder to the public but that is all. As a compromise, I do think Sybil should have a page all about her and the controversy can go there, it is after all a controversy of popular media, not the science world. Then there could be a link to that from this page for those interested in pop culture rather than science and what DID really is. ~ty 04:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

DreamGuy and Tom Cloyd

I am not a[REDACTED] editor. I am someone with DID who is just about as knowledgeable as a layman can be about the topic (if I do say so myself). My POV is not neutral but be that as it may. I have never read the book Sybil, nor seen the movie (add a point in the column of it being not important to the diagnosis presently), but I know much information about the case. It is mentioned tirelessly whenever DID comes up. I think it needs to have some space in the article as it is a valid part of the modern history of the diagnosis. However, the controversy re: Debbie Nathan's book and possible fraud allegations on the original Sybil has no place here, discrediting Sybil does not discredit DID or any part of the history and the way it is written now it is being used as a proxy to bring in controversy to the article that certainly is not warranted or weighted enough to be included. If this wasn't a new book it would not be notable at all and it has not proven it has any importance or significance in any field at all let alone psychology. This is doing a huge disservice to this article. Let that be on the book's own personal page where people can read all about it. Please consider this. I am also thinking of doing some slight editing myself but I have no experience so bear with me if I do. Forgottenfaces (talk) 08:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Forgotten Faces

I would love to see your edits. I would also like to see Tom Cloyd's and my own put back that were ALL reverted back to a very incomplete historical version by Mr. Dream Guy. I give no credit to Nathan's book at all and I too have never read the book Sybil, but I have read other information about it recently. I tend to enjoy reading science based books. I think however that the subject of Sybil will always bring controversy and as stated before that one case does not have anything to do with what dissociative identity disorder is. Its' one story of so many that could be told. I again suggest that the topic of Sybil has its own page and this page can link to it for those who have interest, but it does not have a place in a serious page on Dissociative Identity Disorder.~ty (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Tom Cloyd II

Impressive Sir! Thank you for bringing this article to a state that Misplaced Pages can be proud of. I enjoy your writing style, your knowledge on the subject of Dissociative Identity Disorder and your knowledge of Misplaced Pages itself. I have been looking at your work on Misplaced Pages and I am impressed. Thank you for taking DID seriously. It's difficult when so many see this as interesting so they want to fuel the media and mis information. Thank you for bringing science to this page. ~ty 04:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't ever edit anything on[REDACTED] i find it all too intimidating but i wanted second Tylas's thank you. I am very impressed. Thank you very much. -Bug — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.178.225 (talk) 17:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Bug

I totally understand Bug. It's like trying to fend off bullies in the playground. The page on Misplaced Pages should be a serious page and as free as possible from the conflict that is only based in a lack of knowledge. I have read all the books that Tom Cloyd has referenced and totally agree with those references and authors who are some of the experts in the field of dissociative disorders. ~ty 04:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reverted back to consensus version

While Misplaced Pages appreciates new input from editors, editors new to a topic should refrain from making massive and controversial changes to an article that has been written and rewritten following a long standing discussion of several points through a consensus building process. This is especially important as above comments make it clear that these changes were made to push a specific POV and to minimize another well documented POV. Calling the controversy based upon ignorance may be the opinion of the editor who made the changes, but Misplaced Pages does not take sides.

In the upcoming days I will try to go through each edit one by one to restore any individual changes that might be good, but the changes as a whole simply will not stand. Another editor besides myself already removed them, and I would caution the editor who made them to try to find consensus for any changes before making them again. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. DreamGuy (talk) 17:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Dream Guy

Just because I don't have tons of edits on Misplaced Pages, that does not mean that I don't have a right to work on a page that interests me, but this page I am willing to fight for. I am tired of mis-information out there on DID. On your personal WP page you state the following: "Usually what I end up doing is undoing really bad edits by other people: spam, hoaxes, trying to put their own opinion into an article as if anyone else cares, and so forth." In this page you are trying to do the opposite. You are trying to keep hoaxes and POV rather than allowing the page be one of science and real psychology. Just because you have positioned yourself as guard of this page does not make you an expert on DID and the one who should decide what is on the page. This is not meant to be rude, but dang it, you keep deleting everything!~ty (talk) 18:09, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus Version

Oh my! I would not call what was here a "consensus version", but then I am not well versed on Misplaced Pages. To me the page seemed half thrown together, lacking in real and up to date data and sporting popular media instead of science and psychology. I don't want to be rude by any means, but let go of the ego a bit guys and let us do some work on this page. I really am embarrassed when someone goes to Misplaced Pages to read what Dissociative Identity Disorder is. It needs some real hard work. Please help us make a page we can all be proud of and all those who have DID can be proud of. :)

~ty (talk) 18:09, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Who's consensus?

Could someone direct me to where Misplaced Pages talks about consensus? Or explain Who's consensus. I want to understand this better. -Bug unitybicycle 10:03 16 January 2012

WP:CONSENSUS. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Re: editor Tomcloyd's possible "conflict of interest" here

It has been suggested on my user account talk page that my edits to the DID article may violate Misplaced Pages's COI guidelines. Anyone suspicious of this should now make that argument, here. Vague allegations annoy me. Stand up where I can see you.Tom Cloyd (talk) 21:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

<deleted by original editor>

PS And the fact that you tried to explain your edits at length here on the talk page make things even worse, why couldn't you just be BOLD. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Guillaume2303, I have restored your comments, which you deleted in an apparent fit of despair. Despair not. Misplaced Pages editing always has room for satire, I will assert, and yours, here, absolutely nailed it!

This spurious "You're in the field, therefore you're advancing a personal agenda, and have no place here, dammit!" argument has been thrown at me before. I'm more than ready to deal with it. What DreamGuy SHOULD have done is what I did, care enough to take the time to really make an argument, which he didn't, so he's still lost in his dreams, apparently. He might well consider that there will be no more dreamin' around here.

You're damned right I have some biases, and they are on full display at my user page, by design. I'm ruthlessly transparent, which by the way is a cherished value in my profession. We make our living by our reputation for honesty, part of which means we try to keep up on the literature so we can actually defend the assertions we make. I actually do this, which may make me a bit unusual.

Vacuous, ill-considered assertions hurt, and in some cases, kill people. They have no place in articles relevant to professional mental health, such as this one. This is non-negotiable. Part of my transparency, it may be noted, is that I use my real name here, and provide links on my user page to other places on the Internet where I have expressed myself at length regarding professional matters. The idea that all this should in some way disqualify me is laughable!

As for my biases, they are the biases of scholars and thoughtful people the world over, and yes, even of good Misplaced Pages editors. I value and will promote:

• the highest levels of scholarship attainable;
• the best argumentation achievable;
• orderly consensual development of knowledge (science as social process).

Anyone having a problem with these biases, I will be bold to suggest, needs to get their attitude adjusted!

Stay with us. Do not despair. Fight the good fight. Why? Because there are those who cannot who will greatly benefit from our good work here. Also, because this sort of activity requires practice if real skill is to be attained. One of the great things about Misplaced Pages is that it provide a laboratory for such skill development.

I look forward (he says hopefully) to your continued participation here.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom, I must say I was a bit worried when I saw you had done such a big edit especially with the possible NPOV problems with this article. I have not reviewed all of your sources for edits but they all it seems fine to me so far, at least the majority of your edits should be kept imo. There needs to be some discussion on this on why this is NPOV if it is indeed that, not just edit reversals. Thanks Forgottenfaces (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to User:Guillaume2303

Someone needs to stand up for those of us that have DID and write the real facts instead of popular media mumbo jumbo. Misplaced Pages is a scary place for many of us. I think without Tom here many would run off the rest of us. That is very sad. Those of us with DID would just like a page that we are proud of. A page that people can go to and get the real facts about Dissociative Identity Disorder. ~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Guillaume! I got it now. I too am learning Misplaced Pages. Forgive my ignorance of your satire. It was brilliant!

~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Ty - thanks for the support for my effort. I have been laying low today to allow people who wanted to to react to my long series of edits last night. Misplaced Pages is a community. We work together, even when we fight. I absolutely respect that, because it is an accurate reflection of how our larger society works. I will respond to the reactions being posted here soon enough. There's no hurry. Things are proceeding exactly as they should.

I do believe you misread Guillaume2303. While monitoring my watch list page today, I saw him make the post above, then remove it with the following "edit summary" - forget about it, won't change anything anyway. I was instantly sad to see his discouraged point of view. I also enjoyed his comments, which, and this is what I want you to understand, I recognized as a satire of a particular point of view which appears on Misplaced Pages too often, and always with destructive effect. I appreciated the injection of some humor (which we all need from time to time), and want to urge him that there is really no reason for discouragement - not here at least. I'm a Misplaced Pages veteran, and I'm not worried about the outcome here. Furthermore, I want everyone, and I mean everyone, to put forth their best arguments here, so that the best thought we can produce will carry the day. People who retreat in discouragement take their views with them, and it's better that they remain here for us all to consider. So, you see, you and Guillaume2303 are actually pulling for the same thing!

No need to apologize to Guillaume, by the way. I'm sure he understands. And your misread is also completely reasonable. Sorry I didn't post a flag of some sort making it clear that this is satire.

Finally, you make a VERY important point when you say Misplaced Pages is a scary place for many of us. This is especially so when the DID article appears to be hostile to the concept that DID is a fully legitimate diagnosis, and suggests that there is continuing (much less growing!) controversy about the diagnosis. It pains me to imagine someone with DID reading the article and thinking "So they think I'm faking this disaster?". That just should not happen, and that's one of the major reasons I'm working to upgrade the article. I will address this particular issue in a separate section I'm going to add soon to the Talk page.Tom Cloyd (talk) 05:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I am someone with DID and I do read this page as it is now and wonder how many people think i am a fake. I look forward to the page getting back to how you had it Tom and maybe even improving it more than that. Especially making the section about controversy smaller or getting rid of it completely. -bug

Hello Bug

I could not agree with what you stated here more. The page needs a lot of work and Tom just started to make a dent in it. This somehow seems to threaten Dreamguy's position of power. ~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Dream Guy

Those of us speaking here are not here to wield a POV or take over your power. We just want a Misplaced Pages page on DID that is something we can be proud of. You accuse me of wanting changes to prove I have DID. This is no more true than I want to go to a Misplaced Pages page on anything and find correct information. I will respond more to this where you posted it.

~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Tom Cloyd!

YAY! I like that whole paragraph. Trust me! This is a fight I will not quit on. It's so important! Thank you for explaining all that! :)

~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Nice Guy

I think that was Tom Cloyd being so nice rather than Dream Guy. I will get this all down. I should have known it was too good to be true, but my fingers are still crossed you will let us fix this page. Tylas 17:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Forgotten Faces

It's nice to see someone of reason speaking. I have read all the books that Tom Cloyd has listed. They are fascinating and some of my favorites - mostly because they are quite current and written by some of the leaders in the field of DID. I think you will also find them enjoyable when you are able to read them. ~ty 04:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Ignoring all the useless chatter from the new "editors" above, it is pretty damn obvious that someone who says he professionally treats people with DID and comes to the talk page saying that there is no controversy has both a strong bias on the topic as well as an interest in protecting his source of income. The controversy section here basically shows that many experts on the topic think that what you are doing to earn money is basically hurting your patients instead of assisting them. It's not a stretch at all to see why that is a conflict of interest. Your comments have shown very clearly that you are way off the charts biased, as you want Misplaced Pages to say whatever *you* happen to believe and nothing else. That's completely against how things are done here. People editing article with a demonstrated bias and doing so to support their own professional standing get blocked. DreamGuy (talk) 20:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Dreamguy You are saying that we new editors are just posting useless chatter? Let us edit the actual page and this chatter will halt. You ask for discussion then you call it useless.~ty 04:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

'Dreamguy States the following:

"The controversy section here basically shows that many experts on the topic think that what you are doing to earn money is basically hurting your patients instead of assisting them."

Professionals are accused of making page better for profit by an editor

I cannot begin to express how inappropriate I find this statement. You are making a blanketed statement that all healthcare professionals that have interest in making the Misplaced Pages article on DID better are doing it to extract money from potential patients! This is the sort of statement I would expect from the False Memory Society, not an experienced editor on Misplaced Pages. I am floored at this!

~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Funny, you should already see that my earlier response below shows exactly what I meant. I certainly did not say all healthcare professionals who want to make an article better are doing so to extract money. Hell, healthcare professionals who are real professionals would agree that the topic is controversial even if they disagree with the people on the other side. It is not professional to try to censor opinions you do not agree with. And again you seem obsessed with FMS - that's a trait we have seen here before. Bringing it up randomly just makes you looks suspicious. DreamGuy (talk) 02:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• DreamGuy, are you really saying that Tom Cloyd is hurting his patients to make money? --Guillaume2303 (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I am not saying that, but I am pointing out that the experts who say MPD/DID is primarily caused by therapists do say that these therapists cause more harm than good while at the same time making money of the treatment of something they themselves put into their clients' heads. So it would not be surprising that someone who is a proponent of MPD/DID would want to remove anything these experts critical of the diagnosis and their work have to say. There is a clear and obvious COI here. DreamGuy (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

DreamGuy are you saying none of Tom's edits are appropriate? Why not hash out what exactly the discrepancies are, isn't that what this page is for? I may be new but I believe what I addressed re:Debbie Nathan is valid. Please tell me why it is not. I may not know exactly how to edit and not have enough time this weekend to learn sufficiently, but I can still input ideas. Debbie Nathan's book maybe deserves a sentence about it's existence related to Sybil. let's see here:

"The highly influential book Sybil (which was purported to be true, but has since been identified as likely heavily fictionalized) was published in 1974, which popularized the diagnosis through a detailed discussion of the problems and treatment of the pseudonymous Sybil. An October, 2011 report on NPR included discussions with Debbie Nathan, author of the book "Sybil Exposed: The Extraordinary Story Behind the Famous Multiple Personality Case", and other psychology professionals, about the allegations that the "Sybil" story was, if not a fraud, then a case that involved questionable or duplicitous behavior by the patient, as well as by her doctor, who was interested in the theory and who wanted to believe this was an actual case and who may have been intent on making sure it would be seen as such, and also by the original "Sybil" book's author, who had a large amount of money involved in the book contract"

First of all, for someone who wants to put Sybil in the history section you are devoting way more space to talking about it being a hoax then on it's actually place in history when it happened. In fact I don't believe Debbie Nathan's book should be here at all but if it must you are giving it a lot of influence. This is a blip on the radar that will be gone in six months. It is not a scientific book and in fact Ms. Nathan attributes all kinds of thoughts and feelings to people she never met who are long dead. Again I have no opinion on the Sybil case, it may be false it may be true, but this article makes it overwhelmingly seem false. Debbie Nathan's book is sensational journalism. Why is it on this page?

This is not idle chatter and I would appreciate a good faith response. Thank you Forgottenfaces (talk) 21:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, none of his edits are any good, as detailed below and mentioned in the new section. The entire point behind the edits were to censor facts he doesn't want people to know about and to slant the article. Your personal opinions on Nathan's book are less than a blip on the radar. Her book is a reliable source, and it has been covered extensively in other reliable sources. DreamGuy (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Consider this diff. Among the changes I object to:

• Removal of the "controversy" paragraph from the lead, despite a total of seven references to verify the text
• Replacement of "Unexplainable headaches and other body pains" with "Somatic Symptoms". Keeping in mind the audience of[REDACTED] is a general one, and that the merck reference specifies "severe headaches or other pains", the former is most appropriate in my mind.
• Change of "Physiological findings" to "Physiological research on DID", which duplicates the page name, which MOS:HEAD urges against
• Movement of the possible iatrogenesis of DID out of the "Causes" section - considering a considerable number of sources support people thinking DID is at least in part iatrogenic in at least some groups, this is inappropriate.
• The inclusion of a subheading of "prevalence" in the second level heading of "epidemiology" is not appropriate, since there are no other subheadings. Nope, I was wrong - WLU
• The removal of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde as an image is not appropriate in my opinion; we can't get many images in a page like that, and Jekyll & Hyde is considered a classic example of DID in popular culture. Popular culture is how findings like this reach a broader audience and a place in the general cultural consciousness. This means we should mention notable works of literature, particularly when sources have explicitly made these links for us.
• Ditto for Sybil. This could be shortened, but not removed - Sybil was enormously important in introducing DID to the world, and it's debunking is also important. The discussion of how Sybil led into the introduction of DID/MPD into the DSM followed by increased media coverage is also an important part of this, and again appeared to be removed not because of sources or other concerns. It looks like a single editor decided they didn't like it and removed it on the basis of personal taste or disagreement.

...and that's why I did a full revert to the previous version - there are too many reliable sources being removed, not because other sources have criticized them but instead because one editor doesn't like them. Professionals can disagree, both publicly and privately. This is only an issue when one professional uses their opinion to edit the page and ignore the opinions of others. I would venture this is the problem in the current page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 22:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate your response. I don't think Sybil should be removed, I just don't think Nathan's book debunks the story as the language of the article seems to imply. She is not a mental health professional. She's not a doctor. She's not qualified to debunk the story, if it needs to be mentioned that it exists I don't think there should be so much space devoted to it. Feel free to debunk with published articles or books by professionals, this is not even really a non-fiction book, it has at least as many problems as the original book is purported to have (I didn't read the original book but have read Nathan's). Regardless, take away all of that and it is just unnecessary knowledge. It does not add anything except that one doctor and one patient's stories might be false. This is the problem with the book itself and the problem with putting it in the article. It will not matter in six months and even people who believe DID is iatrogenic should see that. One (possible) example does not make a rule or even a suggestion of a rule that may exist. This will take us to further topics so I will stop there.Forgottenfaces (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

And forgive my rustiness on logical fallacies, but isn't this whole thing begging the question? DID is controversial/fake so Sybil must be fake <-> Sybil is fake so DID must be controversial/fake. Perhaps I am misunderstanding? Forgottenfaces (talk) 23:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Sybil doesn't prove or disprove DID, it's merely part of the phenomenon. It deserves a mention, how it impacted DID entering into popular consciousness. Its debunking deserves a mention. But the entire page doesn't hang on it. If we want to discuss how Sybil is used on the page, I suggest using a new section since my comments above have a much, much larger breadth than a simple book. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 23:51, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU - Debunking of Sybil

Debunking of Sybil has yet to be proved. This is a debate in itself. It is not part of a serious DID discussion. Nathan presented evidence that supports what she WANTS her audience to believe and not even being a professional, she diagnosed Shirley with pernicious anemia instead of the MPD. Everything about this book is shaky and it certainly does not deserve room on a serious page on DID. ~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

You are quite correct, I will create a new section asap with more complete criticisms and suggested changes. Thanks Forgottenfaces (talk) 01:13, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

If you bring up Sybil then many other books need to be presented such as Dr. Suraci's book. Again, the topic of Sybil has no place in a serious discussion on DID, but I agree with much of what Forgotten Faces says.Tylas 01:01, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Suraci's book publisher was Abandoned Ladder, which has published a total of three books and might be vanity press. Nathan's book was published by Free Press, an imprint of Simon & Schuster. Though not scholarly, since the topic is essentially how Sybil impacted popular culture's perception of DID through a popular book and movie, it's quite relevant. Numerous scholarly sources mention Sybil, for instance , , , , , , , , , and sometimes within the context of Sybil starting a DID/MPD epidemic. Based on this I would say Sybil is very relevant to the page, as is its debunking. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU

Yes, Nathan's book is not scholarly as you point out and has no place in a serious discussion on Dissociative Identity Disorder. That we do agree on. The book is Nathan's interpretation of how the book Sybil impacted popular culture. Please site experts in the field for references. I don't think you will find any that do site Sybil. You can all talk all the pop culture and Sybil you want, but please do it on another page than this one. This page should be a serious discussion of Dissociative Identity Disorder. ~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Nathan's book is relevant. I'm not saying we spend a large amount of time discussing Sybil and Nathan's debunking. I'm saying Sybil deserves a mention, as does Nathan's claim that Sybil didn't actually have DID. Nathan's book is a valid source for this sort of thing, and even medical pages allow for history and impacts on culture, see WP:MEDMOS. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU and Sybil

Perhaps under the culture section. I could give a bit on that, but when I see this sort of thing it takes over conversations. I would really like a good page here. I have read a great deal about Nathan and her work and I know she does not have a clue how the brain works or what DID actually even is. I cannot give her any merit, I am sorry. The original work "Sybil" I could slide on, but that brings with it all the pop culture garbage. Again, I would like to see Sybil mentioned, but then a link to other pages where people with that interest can discuss it to their hearts delight! Thank you for being reasonable. I can as well. I have read many of the Misplaced Pages rules and I do not like people throwing out their interpretations of those rules. I am not saying you are doing this, because I have not gone to your link yet, but it what I keep seeing happening here. ~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Sybil should be discussed in the history section, particularly since it preceded introduction of DID into the DSM-III and sources appear to link these two incidents causally. I don't care what you think of Nathan's work or abilities, I care what reliable sources say. Completely discard the notion that your personal opinion matters, because it doesn't and nor does mine. You need to use reliable sources to verify text, not your opinion. Also, please stop chatting about irrelevant tangents, we are not a forum. The current section could probably be trimmed, but it certainly should not be eliminated. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

DID was in the DSM prior to Sybil The problem is that "Sybil" has no effect on the scientific community. I believe this current Misplaced Pages page already talks about how DID was in the DSM under the heading of hysteria, prior to the book "Sybil." I have seen a great letter written by Kathy Steele about this. Kathy Steele is without a doubt one of the leaders in the area of DID research and knowledge. It is not only my personal opinion about Nathan, but also that of experts in the field like Steele. I could link to those letters if you like. ~ty (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, nobody is saying Sybil had a significant effect on the scientific community (yet, the sources may actually say otherwise). That's why it's in the History section, not diagnosis, epidemiology, symptoms or treatment sections. There are a multitude of sources that point to Sybil being historically relevant to DID; I've linked 9 above and you have yet to provide any sources saying otherwise. "A letter from Kathy Steele" is not a source; even if it were a letter to the editor of NEJM it's of very limited use on this page. If you've done a lot of research, prove it by linking to the sources that verify the text you want to change. Anyone can say they've done lots of research, it's a whole other world to demonstrate it. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Will do Sir! Can I now actually edit the DID article? I have hope that Mr. Tom Cloyd will keep my editing up to Misplaced Pages standards, but I will review the rules and do my best to abide by them. ~ty (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I am perfectly willing to jusify my own edits and explain my actions, and I will ensure that any edits to the actual article are in compliance with the policies and guidelines. Given your lack of experience, I suggest you propose edits in advance on this talk page or on a user subpage. Always refer to policies and guidelines, and I will ensure I point out any that will make your edit better or why your edit shouldn't be made. Anyone can edit, but not everyone can edit well. Competence is required. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:56, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I concede to you that you have fine editing skills, but I do have a lot of knowledge on this subject. Misplaced Pages states that one try to clean up material rather than tossing it completely. I will work on my Misplaced Pages editing skills if you will work on your professional knowledge of DID (not pop culture). I will follow Tom Cloyd's methods. They appear unbiased and clear and easy to understand. He has a fine balance of real knowledge of DID and Misplaced Pages editing skills. I shall attempt to follow in his footsteps! Peace WLU. :)~ty (talk) 20:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not enough to assert you have a lot of knowledge - you have to demonstrate it through the citation of reliable sources. Ironically, what you are accusing me of doing - tossing out material - is what I have been undoing. Most of Tom Cloyd's edits consist of removing well-sourced material with no good rationale I've seen. Don't mistake the fact that you agree with Tom Cloyd with him being right. Misplaced Pages requires verifiability, not truth. If Tom Cloyd is correct about DID, it is expected he cite the appropriate scientific journal articles and books to demonstrate it. Note that I never ask anyone to simply take my word for things - I cite sources. I expect everyone else to do the same, per WP:PROVEIT, WP:V, WP:OR and WP:NPOV. This is why I am sharp and caustic in this dispute - you and Tom Cloyd keep asserting you are right, that I should just trust you because you know what you're doing. Bullshit - show me with sources. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Comparison of full text of two versions

As promised, I said I would look line by line through the changes to the text made recently to see if any part of it was salvageable or improved the article in any way. I just went through the whole thing, and I can honestly say there was nothing in it worth keeping. There were no improvements, no added reliable sources, no new information, or anything of the sort. The sole purpose of those edits appears to be to remove large amounts of text about the controversy to try to hide it and to remove historical facts that would be impossible to deny were important historically except for the fact that they were later used within examples of why the topic is controversial.

In short, the article was not edited in any encyclopedic sense, it was outright censored.

Again, as there is consensus to make these controversial changes, and indeed the changes quite dramatically violate our policy against slanting articles to a particular viewpoint, I can safely say they will never be acceptable without extremely solid and numerous reliable sources proving that there is no substantial controversy anymore. We can't just take the word of some random people on the Internet swearing that there is no controversy, especially when those people have not been shy in demonstrating the extent of their bias. DreamGuy (talk) 00:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Dreamguy

If you will give us some space and allow those of us who are interested to edit this article, by giving us some time and leeway to work, we will put in the work to do as you have stated above. I for one wanted to see if any work and research I did would just be met with the delete button and it was. Therefore, yes, most of the editing done, at least by me (I can't speak for others) was deleting and moving of things that should not be in a serious article on Dissociative Identity Disorder - in my opinion, yes, but also I have not seen this sort of thing in any of the academic books, journals and papers I have read.Tylas 00:46, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU

Please don't swear. That was a very bad word you used! I don't like that type of language and I am sure many others here do not either. You deleted a link to complaints about Dreamguy. That is relevant to this page because he is exhibiting the same behavior here that he did in those past complaints. ~ty (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Is there any reason I can't say fuck, cunt, twat or douchebag? Can you point to a policy? No? Alright then. While I am prohibited from calling a specific editor a fucktard or moron, there's no such prohibition I'm aware of against using the words shiteater, asspenguin or fucknugget. Want me to stop swearing? Engage on substance, cite policies, guidelines and sources. Stop using your opinions and assertions in the absence of those three things.

If you have a serious issue with DG's actions, take it up at the appropriate venue, not here. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Swearing on Misplaced Pages

Misplaced Pages rules aside there is manners. Bullying and swearing are inappropriate anywhere. I shall file a formal complaint against dreamguy. Thank you for the suggestion.~ty 16:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you cite any policies? If not, why are you wasting my fucking time. Cite a policy and I'll strike those bastards. And you better have a good fucking idea of what the "complaint" will say or you're wasting your goddamn time too.

Again, opinions are worthless, what matters is policies, guidelines and sources. I don't give a pile of steaming dogshit about manners, and you sounding off about nonsense and bullshit with no understanding of what the community mores are is a whole fuck of a lot ruder in my opinion. Jesus Christ, stop polite-trolling and learn the fucking rules. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

• WLU, please tone down and remain civil. This kind of behavior is unwarranted and continuation on this path is going to get you blocked. Thanks. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 17:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Mr. WLU

I see these 3 rules have not been put to good use here. All I want is to work on the DID page. I am not trolling or fighting. I simply want to contribute to this page and have been met with strong objection. I will read Misplaced Pages rules, but I will not blindly follow your interpretation of these rules. WLU, is it inappropriate to ask you why you are so dead set against me and other working on this page? Thank you Guillaume for your post and the link to Civil behavior.

Be polite, and welcoming to new users Assume good faith Avoid personal attacks ~ty (talk) 17:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

What personal attacks have I made?

User reliable sources to verify actual or suggested changes to the main page.

Link your signature.

Thread your posts per the talk page guidelines.

When I give a policy-based reason for why a change, comment or suggestion is a good or bad idea, do me the courtesy of actually reading the link I'm providing, and don't make the same suggestion again. You may consider profanity to be rude - I consider wasting my time to be far, far ruder, and it pisses me off. You are an extremely inexperienced editor giving lectures that betray your ignorance of the community. Learn the rules, post something mores substantive than your personal opinion, and respect will follow. Continuously lecturing about politeness while not bothering to understand why your edits are inappropriate just irritates me further. Pretending to be concerned about politeness while doing the[REDACTED] equivalent of pissing on my flowers won't help you anywhere. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

History re: Sybil and Sybil Exposed

I made a minor edit, changing the language to be less loaded in this section. It being 'likely' fictionalized has one source, and likely is too strong of a word. Also I changed the sentence to say the book helped popularize the diagnosis and not that it was the only thing that did.Forgottenfaces (talk) 18:06, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Blarg, I'd rewritten much of the section to shorten it and hit an edit conflict my web browser is currently choking on. I'll re-rewrite. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you WLU, I appreciate your time. Forgottenfaces (talk) 18:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU - Let others edit too and what does Blarg mean?

Why is it that no one else is allowed to rewrite. This is a community. Let others do work on the page. Forgettenfaces has a right to edit if they want! ~ty (talk) 18:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe he was expressing annoyance on the fact he lost his edit, not the fact that I am attempting to edit the article. I didn't take it as personal and am in good faith hoping we can make this section more balanced. Let's all calm down and take a deep breath. :) Forgottenfaces (talk) 18:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I am cool and not upset in the slightest. I totally enjoy debate and it does not bother me at all. I just want to be able to edit the actual article instead of spending days talking on the talk page throwing out Wiki rules, which is were we all seem to be stuck! ~ty (talk) 18:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

We aren't here to debate. Saying things like "throwing out wiki rules" is yet another indication that you don't appreciate the importance of policies and guidelines in this debate. I am upset that you've the gall to lecture us on the appropriate contents of the page without any indication you know what governs their contents. We are not a place to chat. We are not therapy. We are not a place to promote a viewpoint. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. I will be a lot calmer when Tylas shows some indication of understanding that this page is not the place to publish his or her own ideas about DID. I take a lot of time and effort to justify my edits and talk page postings with reference to policies, guidelines and sources. It's a point of pride for me. It's in my signature. I do this because they are important. For someone to blithely wave them away is more than aggravating, it makes it difficult if not impossible to arrive at a consensus because we're working with different sets of rules. So stop "enjoying the debate" - that's not why we're here. Learn the rules, cite sources and this will go much, much more smoothly. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Mr. WLU, as soon as you allow others to edit the actual page you might be rewarded with our ability to follow the[REDACTED] rules. I just ask for a chance. You have been debating and citing rules instead of just letting us work on the page.~ty (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

(unident) Guys, let's keep this section about this specific topic. I don't know the policies on conflicts like this but it sure doesn't belong on this talk page. Forgottenfaces (talk) 19:04, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you WLU, the section is much more neutral and condensed. I will let you know if I have any other changes, right now I am satisfied with the changes. Forgottenfaces (talk) 19:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Status of this article - clarification of my position

G'morning boys, time to rise and shine. We don't allow people sleepin' in our gutters, and it's daylight now anyway. Decent people are waking up and headin' off to work. It's time for you get yer boots back on, find your horse (I sure hope ya got one), saddle up, and head on back to wherever ya came from. I know you had a good rowdy time here over the weekend, but the saloon's closed now, and it's time for ya both to skiddadle.

I know that some of boys are getting a posse together and they're going to come lookin' fer ya. I just think ya should at least have a head start. They do love to shoot varmints, ya see, and some of 'em aren't real good shots, so they could hit just any part of ya. If I were you I'd ride out of here like there's no tomorrow, 'cause for you there just might not be!

So, here's a quick synopsis of what I see happening:

Article page activity

• FRIDAY NIGHT AND SATURDAY MORNING (2012.01.13-14 - USA Mountain time zone):Over a period of about 6.5 hours, I make about 20 carefully thought-out edits, all with edit summaries and the whole explained in length on the Talk page. I then retire for the weekend to observe reactions of the community of editors interested in this article.
• SATURDAY (2012.01.14):
  • At about 9:30AM (MST - USA Mountain Standard Time), Editor DreamGuy reverts all my edits, in a single reversion, with the edit summary: "highly POV edit from editor with few edits on Misplaced Pages - there is no consensus to make these controversial changes)
  • At 7:22PM (MST), Editor Tylas reverts the reversion, with the edit summary: "(The new edits are in order with the newest information on DID. Controversy is (sic - she means "if") really needed can be added to that paragraph.)
  • At 7:46PM (MST), Editor DreamGuy restores his initil reversion, with the edit summary: "highly POV edit from editor with few edits on Misplaced Pages - there is no consensus to make these controversial changes."
• SUNDAY: At 2:45PM, editor WLU removes a reference from the "Controversy" section, with the edit summary: "removed primary source used to debunk secondary, per WP:MEDRS)"

Talk page activity

A large number of entries have been made to this page. It's clear to me that Editors DreamGuy and WLU are extremely rejecting of my edits, and apparently even of my presence here. Their intent appears to be to defend the status quo text existing prior to my arrival, which is fine, if the defense is legitimate, and properly carried out.

In contract to this reaction, Editors Tylas, Bug, Guillaume2303, Forgottenfaces post to the page a variety of comments in support of my work and my revision. Several reveal that they have DID and want the page to be more reflective of the current state of knowledge about DID in coming from the professional psychology community, as do I.

Of particular note is an extended attempt by Editor DreamGuy to mount an ad hominem attack on me by asserting that I am illegitimately advancing a personal bias.

Overall summary

By a 5 to 2 margin, we have a consensus supporting my revisions, or most of them. I will be restoring this new consensus version shortly.

The idea of "consensus" in Misplaced Pages is interesting and crucial. The core source document makes the following critical statements:

• "Consensus refers to the primary way decisions are made on Misplaced Pages, and it is accepted as the best method to achieve our goals."
• "Consensus on Misplaced Pages does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. This means that decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Misplaced Pages's norms."
• "A consensus decision takes into account all of the proper concerns raised."
• "...often we must settle for as wide an agreement as can be reached."
• "Editors may make changes without prior discussion."
• "Repeated reversions are contrary to Misplaced Pages policy under WP:Edit warring.

There is much more of value in this article, and I encourage all interested parties to study it carefully, while remembering that it has not the status of "Misplaced Pages law". It is the normal way things are done here (by consensus - pun not intended), and there are exceptional cases where non-normal solutions are best (although I don't expect that will occur here).

About restoration of the new consensus version

We do have a new consensus clearly expressed, but it is a consensus-in-progress, and discussion of core ideas behind my revisions should certainly continue, in a thoughtful and civil manner.

I ask that DreamGuy and WLU respect the expressed views of the very clear majority (by more than 2 to 1) of editors in this conversation, and NOT initiate an edit war over my revisions. Let's have a discussion, instead.

PLEASE NOTE (and this was one of your initial mistakes, DreamGuy, in effecting your single massive revert), that my edits have been very deliberately made serially, expressly so that each may be considered on its own merits. I have tried very hard to thoughtfully justify my edits. The attempts I have made at justification may NOT merely be sidestepped. You must address them as to their merit.

That will involve not mere gratuitous assertion of conclusions, for which you offer no argument, but rather engaging in proper argumentation. For every assertion of importance you offer, I expect to see recognizable premises and some kind of logic which produces the assertion. Failing that, your assertion has no merit, and will properly be ignored. This sort of discussion is, indeed, work, I know, but it is essential work. It's how thoughtful people decide things productively. Neither my several degrees and vast clinical experience nor your presumed good looks and magnetic charm count at all - only our argumentation. This is not negotiable.

Behavior

I see on the Talk page, and also on at least one editor's user Talk page which is on my watchlist, some completely improper and indefensible behavior, by both Editors DreamGuy and WLU. I will address this in another section, which will serve as the mandatory "discussion of the issue" that must ensue before I report you both to the Administrators' Incident Noticeboard, and ask that you be blocked. I warn you that if either of you preempt the discussion here of my individual revisions which I have asked for for, it will but serve as additional fodder in support of my request that your accounts be blocked, or in the case of one of you, banned. You have mistaken me for a newcomer to Misplaced Pages. You have not done your homework. I suggest you visit my user page and do a little reading, and check into my edit history. Informed action is more likely to produce fruitful outcome than impulsivity.

So, now, good luck boys, 'specially the one a ya that's walkin'. What happened - ya get kicked in the butt a while back? Oh well, it's today you need to pay worry 'bout. I know there's not much comfort where ya headed - up there in the hills with the coyotes, snakes, and scorpions. I just heard someone say "Well, at least they'll be with their own kind..." But I don't think that's very charitable. Coyotes are fine animals, once ya understand how they think..."

Tom Cloyd (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:TLDR. What specific changes do you propose, based on what sources? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I read every bit of Tom Cloyds post. It was very informative and helpful. Thank you Sir! I would love to review your individual edits! Progress at last! YAY! ~ty (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

What sources did he present that you found convincing and should be used in the main page? Since I didn't see any sources, the whole thing looks like a lengthy opinion and the mere opinion of an editor is not sufficient to adjust a page. What do you think about the removal of a large number of sources in his edits? Pseronally I think this removes what is at least a significant minority opinion, as there appears to be a significant number of skeptics who have published several articles in peer reviewed journals regarding the actual or potential iatrogenic nature of DID. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

My edits are individually documented. There were almost entirely cleanups (OBVIOUSLY). It is totally legitimate to remove material that is not relevant to this professional topic (although it may be to some popular culture topic). I am NOT required to find substitutes (although I may well in the future, where the topic is relevant to the article). In many cases, if not all, the sourcing was illegitimate, i.e., not professional literature. But, these edits must be discussed individually. This global discussion is not useful because it does not deal with specifics. I will NOT accept wholesale reversion. That is disrespectful of me, of the other editors here who like my revisions as a whole, and of the critical nature of this topic. You simply have no idea how out of order you are. Yet. Tom Cloyd (talk) 20:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

How is the controversy over the potentially iatrogenic nature of dissociative identity disorder not relevant to dissociative identity disorder? Why should I accept wholesale reversion? Why should I respect you when you are doing the exact same thing to me and my edits? And how do you propose to resolve this, through the fringe theories noticeboard? Through the reliable sources noticeboard? Via a request for comment? Mediation? Are my actions sufficiently destructive you should seek help from the administrator's noticeboard? Some other form of dispute resolution? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 21:00, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom's post was not too long, and your assertion that it is not worth reading is very good evidence of your unwillingness to participate in a constructive discussion. I agree that a mass reversion of many individual, carefully made, documented changes is highly inappropriate. —danhash (talk) 21:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Considering only one of his posts above contained sources, it's a lot of reading for not much benefit. I actually went over those carefully made changes and found a lot of problems with them. I'm also not the only editor to revert them . I can't see any reason to remember the controversy over iatrogenesis from the lead, or move it out of the "causes" section into a ghettoized "controversy" section. Since iatrogenesis is a theory about how DID develops through faulty therapeutic technique, "causes" seems appropriate. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 23:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

My restoraton of the consensus version of 2012-01-14T02:36:14

This had to be done manually due to edits made to the reverted version; this is regrettable, but unavoidable. Some of these edits may still be relevant to this new version, and I will be sure they are included in this version. Also, there appear to be some errors in the reference list; I will chase these down and fix them - don't know why this happened.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 19:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

...except you've got at least two editors who disagree with your edits, thus it does not represent WP:CONSENSUS. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

You are not reading carefully or interpreting correctly - either my comments above or WP:CONSENSUS. I do not need to repeat what I've already written, but to summarize, per WP:CONSENSUS, Perfect consensus is not required. Your actions are inappropriate. I have warned you multiple times. I'm finished with warnings. I'm placing the matter in other people's hands. Tom Cloyd (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Please alert me to where you are raising this issue with a notification on my talk page per WP:NOTIFY. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:46, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course. I read carefully and understand quickly, and I am well aware of the procedure. You will be notified when it happens. Am very busy tending to other matters just now. Soon...Tom Cloyd (talk) 20:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

What Tom Cloyd states above is how I am reading the Misplaced Pages rules that I have been directed to. The rules clearly state that a consensus need not be "perfect". I will also join the complaint process against WLU and Dreamguy. Working on this article should not be met with such abrasive resistance. Tom Cloyds carefully done edits should be restored.~ty (talk) 20:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that's fine and dandy - but irrespective consensus we have to adhere to the policies and guidelines as a whole. Those policies and guidelines require even minority opinions have a place on the article, per WP:UNDUE. Hence, my objections to scholarly sources being removed. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

• "...we have to adhere to the policies and guidelines as a whole" - No we don't, and you know that; they are recommendations. Furthermore, this is irrelevant. The issue is consensus. We have one and you won't recognize. You're bullying, again.
• "Those policies and guidelines require even minority opinions have a place on the article, per WP:UNDUE." - Incorrect. Again, you have the appearance, but not the substance, of authority. What is required (i.e., recommended/advised) is that all "significant" points of view be represented WP:NPOV. WP:UNDUE says precisely the same thing: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources," As I have said previously on this page - the operant word is significant. By that criteria, the material I deleted will have to stay deleted. More on this later.

Pop-culture literature is NOT significant in a professional topic. It's that simple. Sybil is not relevant to the professional world. I address this issue at length in my reversion documentation. You're simply ignoring me. I can promise you that this tactic will not work, and I will not allow you to ignore my argument. Stay tuned.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I could not agree more Mr. Tom Cloyd. It is nice to have someone here working on this subject that knows the different between a professional topic and pop culture. I am greatly relieved to have your presence here. Mr. WLU, please let others also work on this page. You are very much trying to dominate and bully and scare everyone away. I am not leaving no matter how hard you try.~ty (talk) 22:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Funny that the thing you are calling pop culture is one of the two most famous cases in the history of this diagnosis. Repeating the same lie over and over does not make it any more true. DreamGuy (talk) 01:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU is being too polite here. The heading of this subsection is nothing short of a lie. There is no way that revert can at all be considered a consensus version, and the editor who did so damn well knows it. While we do not need a perfect consensus (And on this topic that would be impossible), but putting a version that he knows multiple long time editors say is wholly unacceptable on all levels is the complete opposite of consensus. To claim otherwise is to engage in WP:WIKILAWYERING, and badly at that. This kind of behavior is the sort of aggressive editing that can lead to topic bans and blocks from WIkipedia. It is patently dishonest and violates several core policies of this encyclopedia.DreamGuy (talk) 01:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know whether to go apoplectic or laugh. "...we have to adhere to the policies and guidelines as a whole - No we don't, and you know that; they are recommendations. Furthermore, this is irrelevant. The issue is consensus. We have one and you won't recognize." Put simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Take that point up at WP:ANI and see how far you get. WP:CONSENSUS clearly, clearly, clearly states that local consensus on individual pages does not override the site-wide consensus that is embodied and exhibited in the broader policies and guidelines. You don't know what consensus is or what it means, or you wouldn't be discounting the opinions of two experienced editors. Do you even know the difference between a policy and a guideline? How do we as editors determine what views are "significant" or not? How can you claim that Sybil isn't relevant to the history of DID when there are many, many, many reliable sources that make an explicit connection between the topics? Even medical pages have history sections, per WP:MEDMOS, and that is exactly where topics like Sybil should go. What policy- or guideline-basis do you have for these claims you are making? I haven't seen anything that bears a remote resemblance to how[REDACTED] has functioned despite my 5.5 years and 47,000 edits. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Sources

• Paris, 2008, Prescriptions for the mind: a critical view of contemporary psychiatry
  • This link doesn't work Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It does for me, google books previews are pooled with your IP address. I have a gmail account I am logged into, therefore I don't share my "pool" with others on my IP address. I can stil read the page, and have already integrated in into the page. The citation is to the book, always, the google books preview is merely a convenience link which makes it more accessible. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Farrell, 2011, Dissociative Identity Disorder: Medicolegal Challenges
  • This is a legal article. That the abstract asserts DID to be controversial is hardly an argument. The author's credentials are nowhere in sight. Merely being a physician doesn't count for much. Not very useful.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It's published in a reliable source, I've yet to read it and I'm assuming the body will have more information. Since it's published in a peer reviewed journal, the author's credentials don't matter and it's perfectly acceptable to discuss any legal ramifications. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Boysen, 2011, The scientific status of childhood dissociative identity disorder: a review of published research
  • This is an interesting abstract, looking only at the question of etiology in childhood DID, and its findings are reported as inconclusive. The iatrogenisis hypothesis was not disproved. Not too surprising, considering how difficult getting good histories are for early childhood.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

If the iatrogenesis is not disproved, why was it removed from the lead? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Foote, 2008, Dissociative identity disorder and schizophrenia: differential diagnosis and theoretical issues
  • This addresses the co-occurrence of psychotic symptoms in dissociative identity disorder and schizophrenia, relative to the problem of differential diagnosis. Interesting, but does not speak to the validity of the DID concept in any way. Psychosis co-occurs with a number of disorders, including grave depression, mania, drug intoxication, and so on. Are we to question the validity of these as well? Absurd.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I would suggest we integrate them in the section on Differential diagnosis or Comorbidity. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Reindeers, 2008, Cross-examining dissociative identity disorder: neuroimaging and etiology on trial
  • This abstract raises questions that it does not answer (although the article itself may). Useless.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

How is it useless? It's a pubmed-indexed journal article. If nothing else, it'll be useful discussing neuroimaging and DID. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Khilstrom, 2005, Dissociative Disorders (pubmed)
• Pope et al. 2006, Tracking scientific interest in the dissociative disorders (integrated)
• Manning 2009, Convergent paradigms for visual neuroscience and dissociative identity disorder
• Brand et al. 2011, A survey of practices and recommended treatment interventions among expert therapists treating patients with dissociative identity disorder and dissociative disorder not otherwise specified.

This article does list a nice selection of experts on DID: Brand, Bethany L.;Myrick, Amie C.;Loewenstein, Richard J.;Classen, Catherine C.;Lanius, Ruth;McNary, Scot W.;Pain, Clare;Putnam, Frank W. I reviewed the rest of the list and they are not from anyone that would be considered a leader in the field of Dissociative Identity Disorder. Most argue methodology.~ty (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

That's not how WP:MEDRS works; these are all peer-reviewed reliable sources that directly address the topic of the page. There seems to be a perception that sources can be dismissed because people personally disagree with them. This is not the case. Reliability is made up primarily of the degree of oversight found in publishing - in this case the reputation of the journal for peer review and in the case of books, the reputation of the publisher. In some case, the author alone can provide an opinion if sufficiently notable but that's quite rare. If these authors are genuinely seen as experts in the field, if any of them are, then that adds more credibility to their opinion. If you have a genuine issue with any of the sources here or on the main page, they can all be presented for review at the reliable sources noticeboard. Again, individual editor opinion doesn't really matter much regarding whether the source is reliable or not, the policies and guidelines do. Publishers and peer review are what matter here. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• (PMID 19724751) Gillig, 2009, Dissociative Identity Disorder - A Controversial Diagnosis
• Lowenstein, in Vermetten et al., 2007 (ISBN 158562196X), Traumatic dissociation: neurobiology and treatment
• Weiner & Craighead, 2010, The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology
• Weiten, 2010, Psychology: Themes and Variations (integrated)
• - ISSTD advising against "truth serum" interviews
• NPR story, probably better for looking into sources rather than actual citation

It's great to have a pile of sources to look at, and I do love reading abstracts. However, so far (and I will return and read the rest) there's nothing here that really useful.

What I see you doing is what we call "shotgunning". You've pulled up a pile of abstracts which involve some kind of question about DID. To what extend this pile has been cherry-picked is not easy to determine, and in any case, so far I see nothing of much import. Ultimately, any group of sources must somehow hang together, to support an argument. I don't see any consistent thread here, yet. THAT is "shotgunning", and it's an amateurs tactic.

The real problem here is that you do not appear to understand some basic concepts in psychology, much less the need for systematic literature synthesis. THIS is why we need to rely upon systematic reviews of the literature done by recognized experts. I will be bringing some more of this material into the discussion, to add to what I have already presented.

You are not recognizing what I have already done. Look at those several books I reviewed in my edit documentations - I looked for any sign of "controversy" and simply couldn't find it. Individual articles rarely count for much, and if you had graduate training you'd know that. Sorry to have to say that, but it's true. You simply don't know your own ignorance, which makes you hard to argue with. When a good source is produced, you declare it "biased", and discount it. That is simple demagogy. It won't fly here, I can promise you.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I too will spend time looking through this list of articles. So far I agree with your conclusion on each and will review the others as you do. I have read ALL the books Tom Cloyd listed, in fact, I have them all here in my home library, plus more. I have found them to be excellent sources of professional information on DID.~ty (talk) 23:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a list of pubmed-indexed and otherwise reliable sources that I found searching for "dissociative identity disorder" and "iatrogenesis". All can be used as integration is determined by reliability. You may disagree with the content, but your opinion doesn't determine which can and can't be used. You may see nothing of import, I disagree. I haven't even read most beyond just the abstract. The important thing is they are all reliable enough to verify information on the page. If you have sources that contradict them, then that's fantastic - we can use them to describe the controversies that exist. What we can not and must not do, is decide a priori what is the "right" answer, and exclude the rest. Calling something "useless" doesn't make it useless. I don't want the page to only give the iatrogenic perspective, but I do want this notable controversy to be included, per our policy on neutrality. Neutrality is demonstrated by reference to reliable sources, and includes both majority and minority opinion. It is not asserted by editors and significant minority opinions, as demonstrated by being able to support sources that support them, must be included. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

One problem is that professional researchers do not address the types of things that are listed here because they are as Tom Cloyd said - useless to real research on DID. LSU, you just don't get it. The page should include real research on DID, not things like this. They need to be eliminated, not debated.~ty (talk) 00:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read WP:MEDRS. Misplaced Pages should be based primarily on secondary sources - review articles, books, consensus statements and the like. I've deliberately selected these types of sources. It's not like there's one central question to be answered here - wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It should include a summary of all major issues relevant to DID - of which iatrogenesis is one, but only one issue. I don't know where anyone got the idea that these sources would somehow "resolve" things - there are a multitude of sources, most can be used and it is important we document the controversy, not pick a side and selectively cite only sources on that side. These sources are real, they're not any less real because anyone disagrees with them. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no side. There is pop culture and there is professional research by those that study DID. Pop culture should be presented on its own page on Misplaced Pages, just as a professional paper on DID should have its own page. They can link to one another, but they are very separate things.~ty (talk) 00:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

What sources here are "pop culture"? What supports a professional paper having its own page? I can't think of any "papers" that merit a separate[REDACTED] page, can you point to any policies or guidelines that support your assertions? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Canvassing

Following guidelines in WP:Canvassing, I have posted notices on the Talk pages of the following three users, inviting them to join the discussion under way about my revisions. Please note that I DO fully understand the guidelines, and also that I am NOT required to post this notification at all. It is, however, good practice, and courtesy to other editors.

I give reasons for my selections, below:

• User:Bluejay_Young - this editor has made a number of edits to this article in the recent past, and declares at his user page that he is a "healthy multiple".
• User:Danhash - this editor has posted here from time to time and very recently posted to the article page. Because of his interest in trauma disorders, evidenced by his involvement in the PTSD article, I thought his opinions might add some perspective here.
• User:Jmh649 - this editor is an ER physician with a sustained serious interest in improving the quality of health care articles. He also well knows the ropes in the Misplaced Pages world - he's an admin.

I do not think I'm in any way out of order with my recent contributions to this article, but I'm certainly open to reasonable suggestion. I don't perceive that I've received much so far. Perhaps these folks may offer some.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 21:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Your talk page notices are appropriate. WLU either has not read WP:CANVAS or else was assuming bad faith. In any case, I have read your talk page notices and the policy and it is obvious that your notifications fall well within what is accepted and reasonable. Any objections to your attempted recruiting of other editors should be specific and grounded in policy and reason. —danhash (talk) 21:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I too just finished reading Misplaced Pages policy on Canvassing and this seem to be perfectly in order. Thank you for posting this Tom Cloyd, even though you did not need to.~ty (talk) 22:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I've read canvass. I would simply have preferred to use some form of dispute resolution in which neutral editors were solicited. Alerting specific editors is allowable, but it is much, much easier to abuse the process by being selective.

I have absolutely no issue with Doc James being involved, he's an excellent and scrupulously fair editor. In the past he has also been very generous in providing me with sources, which could be very helpful here. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

What you would have preferred has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Tom's actions were illegitimate canvassing. They weren't, and that is very clear, so there is no need to defend yourself. —danhash (talk) 17:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

They obviously were, as he sought ought people he thought would agree with him and did not make any attempt to get anyone else involved. Claims to the contrary are plainly false. Certainly your actions here do nothing to disprove that either. DreamGuy (talk) 04:50, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

"They obviously were, as he sought ought people he thought would agree with him and did not make any attempt to get anyone else involved. Claims to the contrary are plainly false."

Evidence, please??? This is yet more argument (and I use the term very casually here) by slander. You don't belong here. I will see what I can do about that.Tom Cloyd (talk) 10:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

DreamGuy, Tom explained who he mentioned the discussion to and why. You don't like what he did, but that doesn't matter, because (politely) policy doesn't care what your opinion of the matter is and neither does anybody else. Also, it doesn't matter because it didn't even make much difference. I was already planning on joining the discussion, which I have already said. I do not have to do anything to disprove any ridiculous idea you choose to believe; indeed proving anything to you is totally unnecessary. Until and unless you have anything relevant to say about the issue we can consider this chapter of discussion closed. It is quite obvious that at least as far as the canvassing issue is concerned, you only care about wasting time with needless discussion about baseless claims in order to keep the focus of discussion from the issues that matter. —danhash (talk) 16:09, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Does it matter anymore? Numerous editors are currently engaged on the page. If we need further input, we have dispute resolution available to us. Shall we move forward? Unless someone is going to take this issues to a noticeboard or request for comment, deciding who is "right" is pointless. Nobody is going to get blocked over the appropriateness or inappropriateness of the canvassing that took place, why perpetuate the drama? Does anyone have any suggestions regarding how to improve the actual DID page? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:26, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Editing of the DID Article

LSU, I see you are making many edits. Are the rest of us yet allowed to edit without being reversed? I have read many Misplaced Pages rules now and am ready to proceed. I am sure others feel the same way. I would like to see Tom Cloyd's edits replaced, then let others of us read through and see what we think. Right now it seems hopeless to try until you stand down a bit.~ty (talk) 22:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, of course. But if significant changes, and in particular removal of a single perspective on DID, occurs then I will oppose it and there is a good chance I will revert.

I sincerely doubt anyone could spend a day reading policies and grasp them all but I appreciate you familiarizing yourself with them. For instance, if you understood WP:UNDUE and WP:LEAD, you would have noted that removing the information on iatrogenesis from the lead was inappropriate because a significant opinion on DID's etiology was completely eliminated. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Again, as Tom Cloyd has stated - popular culture does not belong in this article. The research from experts in the field of Dissociative Identity Disorder is what should occur. So - I still disagree with you. Newbies should be give room to work without being harassed. Misplaced Pages Rule Assume Good Faith Rule ~ty (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

LSU, also at least twice today you have reverted Tom Cloyd's edits if I read this correctly. Please restore those so that we are not writing over each other. If I read the rules correctly, if you revert once more you are banned for 30 days. Please restore his edits or I will. Thank You. Edit Wars~ty (talk) 00:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no pop culture section, it's linked as a {{main}} article. What sources were removed that supported "pop culture"? I can't see any text that I replaced that was "pop culture" so please be specific.

AGF doesn't mean "let new people keep making mistakes". I pointed out why I reverted, I pointed to policies, I pointed out that the edits inappropriately removed sources and text that represented at minimum a significant minority opinion, and the only responses I got were "trust me, I'm an expert" and "I think the expert is right". See the Essjay controversy - experts don't get to make edits because they are experts, experts must use the same reliable sources to verify text. It should in fact be easier for them because of their familiarity with the literature and access to the sources themselves.

Also, you are somehow miskeying my name repeatedly. I don't care that much, but it can be confusing to figure out who you are addressing your comments to. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh no! I am sorry sorry! That was not intentional! I do have some dissociative problems. I will try and pass that on to my 200 plus parts and demand they all get that right! WooLoo = WLU I can remember it like that. Can we play nice yet? I fixed your spelling on culture. Does that make us even. :) ~ty (talk) 01:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Sir, you can fix all my Misplaced Pages edit mistakes you want. I only want to fix the information on the DID article. If you will let us work on the article, we will reference things. Give us a bit of leeway. A little trust. Okay? :) ~ty (talk) 01:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

You can claim that "pop culture does not belong in this article" all you want, but you are ignoring two important things: 1) your claims that the material in question is pop culture has been disputed (and in fact the claim is laughable on the face of it) and 2) YOU NEED CONSENSUS for any conclusion you come to, and you don't have it. Furthermore, as a new editor to this page you (and Tom) seem to be filling this page up with commentary that frankly doesn't do anything toward progressing toward any consensus. All yoga re doing is saying the same things over and over, and you know you do not have consensus for what you have said so far. Please consider either saying something different or refraining from repeating the same exact things. DreamGuy (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Please do not edit others' comments, even to make minor corrections to spelling and grammar. It is rude, and can result in misrepresentation (see WP:TPO). I don't care if you misspell my name, I just want it to be clear who you are addressing comments to you. In order for me to trust you, I need an indication that you understand the rules. Most importantly, I need you to understand that the page will contain information you won't like and personally disagree with. It is inevitable, because the iatrogenesis hypothesis is a significant part of the DID debate. As I've said repeatedly - your opinion, like mine, is worthless. The only important things are finding and integrating the best reliable sources available. Simply by finding and integrating the best and ideally most recent secondary sources on this topic available, a neutral version giving appropriate weight to all sides should essentially drop out naturally. That should be our primary focus, and as DG says - all this pointless, source- and policy/guideline-free bickering helps nobody. Dismissing obviously reliable sources helps nobody. Removing obviously reliable sources and relevant texts from the lead helps nobody. Reliable, secondary sources are the bones, heart and blood of any decent article, so please focus on them. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Bogus threatening edit comments

A person who has been edit warring on this article left the edit comment: "partial consensus is fine; final warning - do not revert; discuss)" This kind of comment is frankly UNACCEPTABLE. You cannot give a "final warning" when you are the one editing against consensus. YOU need to discuss and GET APPROVAL for something controversial BEFORE adding it. The language here seems threatening as if you think you are capable of handling out warnings -- to the contrary, it is your behavior here that is a violation of[REDACTED] policy and can and will likely lead to blocks if it continues. 01:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Sir, Dreamguy - That is not threatening. His edits keep getting reverted. There are 2 of you that stand here like police and won't let anyone do anything on this page. That is threatening! :( ~ty (talk) 01:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

How is "final warning" not intended to be threatening? And OF COURSE his edits get reverted! He KNOWS they are controversial AND that he does not have consensus to make them. Editing the article under those circumstances will OBVIOUSLY lead to being reverting. If you or he want to contribute something to the article and not see it reverted I would suggest either making sure it is a noncontroversial edit or getting consensus first. It's simple, and you can't say you haven't been told already. DreamGuy (talk)

This has already been discussed. Quit writing things that have already be done please. (Not being rude, just repeating what you guys wrote.)~ty (talk) 01:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

You and Tom must come to a common understanding regarding the policies and guidelines, or this whole thing will end in blocks, bans and tears - and I'm very, very sure that I will not be on the receiving end of them. You and Tom give every indication of not understanding why I and DG object to your edits - not because we have personal dislike of you, but because your posts show little indication of the applicable policies and guidelines; to whit, dismissing obviously reliable sources without any reasonable reason. Neither DG nor I are admins, so we can't block you - but both of us have seen POV-pushing accounts blocked because of a refusal to edit according to the same rules. That's why I keep emphasizing things like NPOV, RS, OR, UNDUE, NOT and MEDRS. If you are going to discount a source - you need a rule-based reason why. As I've said many, many times - mere opinion is not enough. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I issued that "final warning". I'd already warned you about your behavior; I was not willing to do it again, hence "final". What word would you have chosen? It was a courtesy, and of course you want to recast it as some kind of behavioral or procedural transgression. I am required, by the policies of the Admin. Board to which I will shortly be going, to attempt to resolve disputes about behavior before initiating formal disciplinary action. I'm following procedure. You should love that. I have no control over what you feel threatened by or not. I can certainly say that my intent was not to threaten. I very rarely feel any need to do that.

I'm not edit warring, you and DG are. I initiated discussion by documenting my original edits, at length, on the talk page. The response was simply to revert my edits, which are now buried in a flurry of updates. It's probably rather obvious to all here that you are feeling threatened. A calmer, more thoughtful response to my edits would have been to respond immediately to my initiation of discussion, which would have led to some kind of consensus, and THAT could have been followed by reversion or by further edits. But you appear simply to want to bury any opinion but yours. That's not playing fair, and that will have consequences, as I've said elsewhere.Tom Cloyd (talk) 04:08, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

From my understanding of the Misplaced Pages rules that WLU has so kindly directed me to, Tom Cloyd is again correct. He made some small and well thought out edits and there was a full revision of them by WLU or Dreamman?, then updates were made over the top of them by WLU. Tom Cloyds edits were made in small sections so they could be talked about, but the revisions were in bulk.~ty (talk) 04:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring takes two sides. If you have reverted (and you both have, , , , ) then you have engaged in edit warring, as have I and DreamGuy (not Dreamman). Tom Cloyd's edits had both large and small issues that need to be addressed.

Both of you need to realize that you can't just claim you're correct and we're wrong. That's not how it works. Everybody thinks they're "right" and the other version is the wrong version. We resolve these disagreements through reference to reliable sources - not by edit warring and assertions. Feel free to make minor changes, but please do not repeat the errors I pointed out earlier - ghettoizing information on iatrogenesis and removing it from the lead; including unnecessary subheadings; overly-technical language, removal of significant aspects of the history of DID. It's not enough to think you are right; everyone thinks they are right. Demonstrate it through sources, reference policies to back your edits and seek outside input when disagreements can not be resolved here. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom: hate to say it, but we already have a consensus. The fact that you disagree is unfortunate to you, but not really relevant. Trying to lecture highly respected, tenured editors on this encyclopedia about policies you have routinely misinterpreted and ignored makes you look kind of silly. Claiming you haven't edit warred shows you do not understand the term, because you clearly have. The difference is the "war" you have been waging is to introduce highly controversial changes that violate policies, and others have edited to restore the status quo of the long-supported, well-demonstrated consensus version. You seem to have the misguided idea that any action you do is fine and can be rationalized because you are so obviously right that what you do must be right and that anything anyone does to deny that must be something they are doing wrong and that they will get into trouble for. You are sadly mistaken, just as some previous editors who thought the same thing and got banned for being unwilling to follow policies have learned. It is the height of hypocrisy to complain about others allegedly trying to bury opinions when your stated goal is to remove well documented, reliable expert opinions from the article itself. DreamGuy (talk) 04:47, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Introduction on the Article

I would like everyone reading the page to see where we are at. WLU, is this the sentence in the introduction you are fighting to keep? What other text - exactly are we debating over. This discussion as it is will get us nowhere. So to keep or loose this paragraph it's all about validating the references. Correct? I understand that what we want is references and we want secondary and tertiary types rather than primary.

Another point. Is cause of DID something that goes in the intro?

Let's look at the paragraph and it's references. This is a page from the introduction of the article, not something I agree with: "There is a great deal of controversy surrounding the topic of DID. The validity of DID as a medical diagnosis has been questioned, and some researchers have suggested that DID may exist primarily as an iatrogenic adverse effect of therapy.DID is diagnosed significantly more frequently in North America than in the rest of the world." ~ty (talk) 03:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The lead section should be a brief summary of all significant issues in the article; the lead follows the body and the current lead is less than ideal. A major controversy and source of disagreement within the scholarly community is whether DID is caused by trauma, iatrogenesis, both or neither. This is readily apparent based on the number of sources that mention or discuss this disagreement. Removal of the above sentence from the lead was inappropriate and that is indeed something I object to. Another point of disagreement is regarding Sybil in the History section. I think the current, brief, well-sourced summary is adequate and would not support substantially expanding it. I would also strongly disagree with removing it. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The quoted text has been supported through constant discussions over the course of this article. It also is extremely well sourced and accurately summarizes the rest of the article and it's reliable sources. To even suggest it should be removed shows a clear attempt to push a POV and not to edit Misplaced Pages per its policies. DreamGuy (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Lack of Consensus on Consensus

This information is from the Misplaced Pages page: Consensus on Misplaced Pages does not mean unanimity nor is it the result of a vote.

So this means that just because there are 2 editors here that act like they police the page, WLU and Dreamguy, you two are not the consensus. Anyone argue that?

I go down the list of things to try and none of those are working here.

1. We have 2 men who refuse to allow any changes to what they deem is their page. 2. We have others here who would like a chance to edit the DID page.

Rationally the 2 police would stand down and let others edit and the others would find references as suggested in the talk above and try and work together.

I am willing to do this. Any others willing?~ty (talk) 04:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, harrumph. You've just made, again, the point I have already made, and was about to repeat. (The article to "Misplaced Pages page" to which you refer, is, of course, here.)

So, for your viewing pleasure, and for the third time, is my original point (it's so very economical to quote yourself!):

By a 5 to 2 margin, we have a consensus supporting my revisions, or most of them. 

(That's five editors who have expressed support of my edits, by the time of the original writing, versus two who have not.) But, of course, we're forgetting something critical here: We're all equal here, but some are more equal than others. There's apparently a default seniority system in place. The old-timers, or at least two of them, have considerably fine opinions...of themselves.

So, we have a NEW CONSENSUS, by the stated standard in general use at Misplaced Pages. And, you see, it is it not me who is ignoring or acting in ignorance of "Misplaced Pages Policy", which I did study, and then quoted and discussed above. It is WLU and DG, who have not even entered into the discussion I initiated. THAT is refusal to discuss, refusal to engage in the consensus development (as in "improvement", 'cause we already have one) process. THAT is bad behavior, and bad behavior has consequences. Oh...did I already say that? Sorry.Tom Cloyd (talk) 04:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Misunderstandings happen. Everyone take a deep breath! I think we are all getting our back against the wall for no reason. I think we are not all that different in our ideas for the DID page. WLU and DG - I believe you misunderstand where I am coming from. I don't want to remove all controversy even though I do find most of it objectable and not for the reasons FF said on DG's talk page - but because anyone that agrees with the work of top researchers in DID would see those controversial things as I do. I think you both might be more reasonable than I first thought after reading your talk pages. I see you both sort of like over zealous lawyers too lost in the law to see what is best for the page. Granted I made a clean sweep of a couple of things at first, being new to editing and all, but I will go slower this time around and accept some controversy. I learn fast. I have read a lot of scholarly texts and most that have come out recently (and have in fact read all those that Tom Cloyd listed and more) and it is the opinion voiced in those scholarly texts written by experts in the field of DID that I mirror when I talk of DID. I will site those references when I make edits on the article. Now that I have read your talk pages, I think WLU and I we will have few problems. DG, we might have a bit more to disagree on. Tom, I really like most things you have posted and attempted to communicate.~ty (talk) 05:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus means evaluating the quality of arguments, not merely the number of adherents. If only two people disagree with ten, but those two cite polices, guidelines and sources while the remaining ten don't, the two "win". That's why I keep hammering on the WP: links. I would ask, for instance, who are the "five", what policies do they cite, and was one of them this guy?

The central points are - if you can't cite a source to support your edit, you shouldn't make it. If a policy disagrees with your edit, you shouldn't make it. If you can't cite a secondary source, you should be very, very cautious to use a primary instead. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

She, not he, wants to express her opinion, but she has felt bullied. I can't blame her a bit. This has been the problem here WLU and DG run potential editors off. Don't discount her. She will be here when you stop being a bully and probably so will others. This page has been run by whoever has the biggest bark and that needs to stop. Those with DID can't always stand up to bullies, but I can. I have a strong system of protectors that many with DID do not have.~ty (talk) 15:41, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The account asked a question and I provided a link to the relevant policy. Hardly bullying. The problem is that you and Tom Cloyd need to accept that you can't discount sources based on not liking their conclusions. All I'm asking is that you become familiar with, and adhere to the policies, including WP:RS and WP:NPOV. After dozens of posts basically repeating myself, I've yet to see an acknowledgement of what started this - the removal and minimization of an active and notable controversy and perspective regarding DID; to whit, the potential for iatrogenesis. Sources are not removed because editors disagree with them. Can we agree to that? If so, we can move on. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:48, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Frankly, besides focusing on the quality of arguments, we also don't just count votes because it is trivially easy to stack votes through use of sock puppets, meat puppets, canvassing and tag teaming. This article has seen numerous attempts to do so in the past, and it's quite clear that some of that is going on now as well. There is nothing like a new consensus, not even close. The consequences of trying to falsify consensus and make bad faith comments are pretty severe. Tom keeps making veiled threats while at the same time participating in behavior that has already gotten people banned from this article and Misplaced Pages in general in the past. Others of us have been here a long time because we are actually following policies. DreamGuy (talk) 04:36, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Per the request on my talk page

I have been asked to comment:

• In this edit the source in question http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=9653418 is a primary source rather than a secondary source such as a review article or major textbook. We should use secondary sources per WP:MEDRS especially if content is controversial. Also we should be trying to use sources from the last 5 years (ten years at most). Would this ref de Ruiter, MB (2006). "Dissociation: cognitive capacity or dysfunction?". Journal of trauma & dissociation : the official journal of the International Society for the Study of Dissociation (ISSD). 7 (4): 115–34. PMID 17182496. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) be useful?
• I notice a fair number of other primary sources which will need replacement with secondary sources before this article can be brought to GA. For an overview of a major topic there are few reasons for primary sources. Hope this helps... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Wonderful suggestions Doc James. So much has changed in the area of Dissociative Identity Disorder including knowledge and research in the last 5 years that this is essential. I also agree with using secondary sources for references.~ty (talk) 06:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it's painfully obvious that too much of this article is based on a small number of primary sources. One reason for that is that it's the only way one can provide documentation for trivial assertions. Only important topics and assertions about them are taken up in review articles. Scholars know this. I know this. It's why I offered substantial reviews of the literature from current (and some older) major books by authors of known reputation. But...there's a problem: See my next post.

Thanks for your thoughts.Tom Cloyd (talk) 06:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I also agree secondary sources should be used, which is why I removed it in the first place. Tom, based on Doc James' comment would you please undo the last edit to the page?

Also, I would venture that the one place where primary sources could be used judiciously is the Dissociative identity disorder#Epidemiology section to indicate preliminary levels of dissociation within the populace. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Beware of the trap of focusing too much on journals specifically devoted to a particular POV -- for example, the Journal of Trauma & Dissociation, which just from the name you know has one viewpoint only and won't even entertain papers with contrary views -- you've already stacked the vote. It's like trying to populate the Astrology article with papers from the Journal of Astrology is Real and Everyone Else Is a Poopyhead. It's a sure fire way to try to minimize all contrary views, which has the end result of significantly bias. DreamGuy (talk) 04:31, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that, at minimum, we'd need to draw from other journals and sources that don't have at least this particular POV. I would personally never rely on the JTD for anything - but that's personally. For wikipedia, the trauma theory of DID does represent a distinct, at least minority and possibly even majority, viewpoint. I would suggest bringing this up at the RSN for comment. However, the real "heavy lifting" for this kind of thing would be finding sources that actively disagree and integrating them. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I would not be at all surprised if the field has divided into two acrimonious camps that completely disagree with each other and essentially ignore each others' work. That means a lot of work for everyone involved, in terms of gathering and integrating a lot of sources, as well as discussing how much weight to give each one. That was what happened in the field of memory and child abuse regarding the SRA moral panic and repressed/recovered memory controversy, it could still be echoing down through the years at a slower boil. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Erroneous assumptions I've been making - but need not any longer

I've just realized some serious mistakes I've been making in my thinking, here at the Misplaced Pages DID article. I've been at this so long that I've lost some needed perspective. I'm basically a 7-day a week psychotherapist (either clinical or academic), and have been for years. Not realizing some of my blind spots, until now, has resulted in some needless chaos and acrimony here. My fault, and I'll gladly assume the blame. I have regrets about this now.

First erroneous assumption. I've been assuming that those most invested in this article understand professional culture in psychology and psychotherapy, and basic research and scholarly method, not to mention the fundamental literature in the field. I could see how minor contributors to this article might not, and would basically be functioning at some "undergraduate" level of understanding, but not 'major' contributors.

I'm "projecting" here, in that I myself just would not attempt to be a major contributor to, say, a sociology article, because while I do have considerable graduate training in cultural anthropology, a related field, I have NOT invested the time studying and learning (two separate tasks) the most important thinkers and literature in sociology that one must invest to attain a reasonable level of competence.

This has a critical implication: not only do I not know some essential facts, I do not know essential values in the field. Combined, this means I lack informed perspective.. I know, from painful experience, that this means that it would be quite easy for me to make a major mistake, to over-reach in some statement or action, and not even know it. I used to do this, when I was young and eager, and green as grass. I got "clipped' more than a few times, and now I'm a healthy bush (as it were), but only in about three fields: philosophy (my weakest), anthropology, and clinical psychology (including research method, where I'm especially strong). Outside of those areas, I can get in trouble fast.

Second erroneous assumption. Given the erroneous assumption above, it was easy for me to think that basically all I had to do here was show up and remind the major players here of a few things, which they already basically knew, and things would soon be on the right track. Well, this sure hasn't been working, and it's been baffling and frustrating to me. However, it is precisely what has led to my making statements which it never occurred to me needed backing up. To me, what I have been saying is just obvious. Not true.

My major insight came when it occurred to me that Misplaced Pages policy and guideline articles (P&G) are procedure laid out to substitute for lack in editor's minds of the knowledge I assumed (first assumption above) was already there. Now I get it what without the P&G, we'd have major chaos here. I've been thinking to myself "You really don't need the P&G, 'cause it's already clear how to do this right."

When I make these "obvious", unsupported statements, it appears that I'm expressing personal opinion. I know that in a way I am, but it's an opinion I've had to develop, to earn, refine, over many years. It did not seem to me to need explanation or justification, in good part because I know that it is the opinion of my field. This is a huge blind spot I've been displaying, to be sure.

Needed remedy. Actually, WLU's been trying to tell me this, and it just didn't make sense until now: I need to be more lawyerly, as it were (not the way he put it, but that's the way it makes sense to me.). He's been stressing the essential value of the P&G, and I've been thinking (yeah, yeah, sure...) and running right on past key problems. That clearly won't work, I now see, and it hasn't been working. So, I will become a scholar of the P&G - that's certainly something I know how to do. I've a high degree of confidence about that.

Example: "reliable sources in psychology". Now that's obvious, yes? Research and theory articles in peer-reviewed journals, and most particularly review articles. But what is not obvious is that material of approximately equivalent value can be found in book chapters. Indeed, what is and is not a peer-reviewed journal, or a quality review article, is also not obvious.

So, from now on I'm going to go forward more slowly and deliberately. I'll cover myself with the P&G. We may have interpretations difficulties at times, and can, if needed, consult guidance groups at Misplaced Pages already set up for this purpose. This all feels, quite frankly, just a little strange, but I can get used to it. I just need to adjust my thinking.

I think that if I had to justify the P&G to a newcomer, now (something I actually do, in my other role at Misplaced Pages), I'd simply say that its role is simply to show us how to work together to produce excellent results. It allows people to become major contributors who otherwise would become baffled, or discouraged, or produce bad work, or be unable to work with others. Rather like democracy, I suppose - doesn't look all that great, until you consider the alternatives!

I'm HERE because I'm a professional, and I NEED the DID article to be a reliable source of summary information of the best that we know about DID - for my clients, for interested laypersons (some of whom have relatives or loved ones with DID, and for my fellow professionals who are not DID specialists and need a quick, reliable overview, with some quality references to follow up with. Having this at Misplaced Pages would be a great service for all. THAT's what I want.

So, let's see if we can get there. If I start to lose my newly gained perspective, feel free to remind me.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 07:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I have absolutely no issue with books and book chapters being used, several of the #Sources I listed above are books. Books are generally secondary sources, and many books discuss the possibility of iatrogenesis in DID. More caution must be used however, because while journals generally have visible peer review and pubmed-indexing to indicate reliability, the reliability of books is based more on publisher and author.

The policies and guidelines are indeed a substitute for expert judgment. If you want to use your expertise much more liberally, Citizendium is a project that welcomes experts and encourages them to use a judicious degree of original analysis. Misplaced Pages does not. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom Cloyd, this is beautifully written. I look forward to when you edits are put back in place and you are able to lend your numerous skills to this article. I could not agree more with what you wrote. ~ty (talk) 15:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom, your first "erroneous assumption" is that you are in any way more qualified to edit this article than other editors here. Another is that you and you alone get to choose who the experts are. While discussing sources above you routinely immediately dismiss anyone regardless of their credentials when they disagree with what you want to believe. Yet another is that the goal of this article is to represent what *you* and people you approve of "know" about DID. Frankly, based upon some bizarre comments you have made I think it's safe to say I have a more rounded professional background in psychology and this specific topic than you have demonstrated. Any of the sources you want to censor from the article have a more valid and valuable opinion than you do, at least as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned. You can't smugly insist that you know what is best while professing to be a professional while at the same time saying monumentally simplistic and unprofessional things about the topic. All you have demonstrated is a dedication to removing all content you disagree with. That's not allowed here. That's all the perspective you need. DreamGuy (talk) 04:20, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Response "Tom, your first "erroneous assumption" is that you are in any way more qualified to edit this article than other editors here." A conclusion, with no supporting argument. Worthless. Here, however is a conclusion that is not:

Premises -

• Assertions derive their value from argumentation.
• Argumentation is a process of stating premises, operating upon them with correct logic, and deriving a conclusion.
• Conclusions (which are always in the form of an assertions) of such argumentation are correct if the logic is correct, and true if the premises are true.
• When an assertion is presented without supporting argumentation, the assertion has no demonstrated meaning.

Argument -

• Your assertion has no supporting argument, therefore it has no demonstrated meaning.

If you are to refute my conclusion, you attack my premises or my logic. This is basic, and I won't even attempt to document it. It should have been a part of your education, formal or informal.

I do make that assumption - that I am more qualified, because I have made known my background. Yours is unknown. You may or may not be more qualified than me. We just don't know. Your behavior, globally, indicates to me that your less qualified. Just my impression. However, all my qualifications should do is support an obvious argument that my expressions and work here ought to be thoughtfully evaluated, NOT summarily dismissed. That is, of course, not what happened. I went to obvious effort to support my original group of edits, and you responded with outright arrogance, and a specious explanation for your action. If there is support in the P&G for your peremptory reversion of my work, give the reference. Failing that, admit you erred, and seek remedy, if you have enough character to do this. I should have been given minimal respect, and was not. That minimal respect would have been visible in a thoughtful consideration of the documentation I offered of my edits, BEFORE they were reverted. Didn't happen.

My edits do not necessarily have more value than anyone else's. Of course. No issue there. They have to stand on their own merit, else we have a visible ad hominem fallacy, right? You are failing to distinguish the issue of my qualifications, which are a rare and precious thing here, or ought to be (how many clinical hours treating DID do you have?), from that of the inherent value of my edits. My edits MUST (of course) stand on their own merit. I have NEVER argued otherwise. If I thought they needed no justification I would not have provided any. Please reread this paragraph and see if you can't get your thinking straight about this. It is irritating to be accused of something egregious which is manifestly untrue, and for which you offer no support whatsoever.

The rest of your assertions aren't worth my time to discuss. I'd rather work on the article. You have in effect attempted to slander me by asserting things for which you offer no support. I responded with a single example of your poor thought which is well supported. Enough said.

As for the value of any particular reference removed or inserted in this article, we'll deal with that issue in a while. It's a fair and essential question, and needs to be handled correctly. What you don't seem to have any appreciation for at all (I wonder why?) is that professional graduate training makes very very clears to its participants that conclusions have value because of the method used to reach them. Nothing else counts. You can assume that any professional knows this (although after a while some need to be reminded). Person opinion is the method of demagogy and the uneducated. To suggest that I work that way is simply ignorant, especially when I have bent over backward to justify what I did with reasons having nothing to do with me. But enough of this. I know I'm wasting my time.Tom Cloyd (talk) 10:11, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The use of logic on wikipedia, at least in article space (not talk or project pages) is pretty much a no-go per WP:OR. We don't get to criticize articles, we only get to cite criticisms that others' have published. Edits to articles must stand on the reliability of the source - that's pretty much the sole measure of merit (though the weight given to the scholarly prestige of the source is also something to consider). Tom, your actual background and training matters much, much less than the number and quality of sources you can cite. As a professional, I have no doubt that you are familiar with the literature and have access to a lot of it. Please demonstrate this through citations, not assertions. I'm not going to give your arguments any credibiltiy becuase of your educational background - and why should I when I have no less than three PhDs in psychology, psychiatry and the psychoneurobiology of stress and coping, and four prestigious post-doctoral fellowships at such august institutions as Johns Hopkins Hospital, McGill University, the Veterans Health Administration Office of Research and Development and Oxford University?

Of course, I have none of those qualifications - my point is that anyone can claim expertise and it doesn't matter (again I point you to the Essjay controversy). The important issue is that you demonstrate your expertise through reference to sources - again,[REDACTED] is about verifiabilit, not truth. I am perfectly willing to consider any source you present, the text it is used to verify, and the wording you would like to use, but I'm not willing to take at your word any edit you wish to make. You must verify with reliable sources. You must give consierations to neutrality, which means giving space to ideas you professionally disagree with so long as they are sourced to reliable sources. We must explore controversies, we can't simply ignore the bits we don't like. From the perspective of our readers, we do them the greatest assistance by including, in detail, the back-and-forth on issues, the bitter disagreements, the publications criticizing different ideas and so on. Feel free to "champion" one side and focus primarily on one aspect of DID or set of disorders - but don't dismiss other sides if they have genuine reliable sources to cite. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Let's please stop editing article until consensus dispute is resolved

It seems obvious that Tylas has hit upon a key issue: We have a dispute to resolve about which version of the article to go forward with. I'm not sure how we resolve this, but I imagine that can be worked out OK within a reasonable period of time. Autocratic resolutions, in either direction surely are not the way to go.

My request is simply that ALL edits to the article stop until we resolve this dispute. Continuing to edit creates problems if we reach a non-unanimous consent to revert to my version. It also assumes that there is no dispute to attend to, and that is plainly wrong and disrespectful to one side of the dispute.

I expect this editing hiatus will be reasonably brief. It will also give us a single question upon which to focus, and in relation to which we can all work on our dispute resolution skills. I think that might be a very good idea, yes? We can let all other matter slide while we try to do this one thing reasonably well.

If we can agree to this, then the logical next question is 'how to resolve the dispute'. Agreed?

Tom Cloyd (talk) 09:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Please remove your last edit to the page as it replaced a primary source.

In practice, once the basic policies and guidelines are agreed to, WP:BRD works quite well. The basic issue here for me is that you have been discarding or discounting sources because you personally disagree with them. If you accept that most, if not all reliable sources are at acceptable at least in potential then editing should be much easier in practice. Nobody gets to discount a source solely based on their personal opinion - and that includes me.

How to resolve this dispute is easy - agree to use only reliable sources to verify text with due weight given to their prominence and reliability. Don't discount sources because your personal opinion disagrees with them - and in this case "personal" includes your personal opinion as someone working in the field. Psychiatry appears to have split (and changed since the mid-90s publication bubble, see here) regarding the question of iatrogenesis, which might be why some sources completely ignore it. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Again, Tom Cloyd, I could not agree more with what you wrote. It goes back to your introduction to this page saying something about Ignorance of the topic does not mean consensus. This page is like working from a 3rd world country. It's possible to make progress, but while so policed that progress will be slow. I do strongly ask that the two police on this page introduce themselves to new literature and research on DID that has been done and wrote about by the respected experts in the field. WLU and DG might be upset at my lack of Misplaced Pages knowledge, but I feel the same about their lack of knowledge on DID.~ty (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Do I need to repeat myself again? Read the policies! All I'm doing is insisting on complying with the core content policies including WP:NPOV, which requires all significant viewpoints, majority and minority, be represented. Lack of knowledge can be corrected, but blatant unwillingness apparently read the policies or abide by them can not be. You may agree with Tom Cloyd, that doesn't mean he's right and it doesn't mean we get to selectively ignore policies that we don't like. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU, this is not my take of what consensus is. You are stating YOUR interpretation of the Misplaced Pages Consensus Guidelines. Both Tom and I have stated our take of it above.~ty (talk) 16:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

What is your interpretation of the statement "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope"? It's from WP:CONLIMITED. I have yet to see any justification for ignoring WP:NPOV's insistence on including all significant perspectives on the subject. Do you have one? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Mr. WLU, Please see Tom and my posts above. Tom wrote out a LONG explanation of it. You discounted it - saying something like it was too long for you to bother with. There is no need to repeat it. Go back and read please. I can understand how possessive you appear of the work you have done, but this is WP and its meant to be a work of a community, not just those who positioned themselves as guards of a page - your idea of guard is again your own OPINION of how this page should be edited and its very extreme. I have read several times your interpretation of consensus, the WP rules of consensus and what Tom wrote. Quit quoting the same rule over and over again please! We strongly understand your OPINION of the WP rules and guidelines. You don't have to keep ramming them down our throats. And I say this in a nice way. :) This is crazy how hard you are making it for anyone to work on this page! You are not going to run me off at least. I am staying.~ty (talk) 17:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Which section? There's more than 300 edits to the page in the last couple days. Also, how is providing a verbatim quote from the policy page "my opinion"? I will cease repeating myself when there is an indication that you understand my point - most substantially, that NPOV applies throughout[REDACTED] and supports the inclusion of information on iatrogenesis. If you'd like to get into more specifics, please do so and I'll indicate specifically why I think an edit is appropriate or not, mine or someone else's. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Mr. WLU, you are discounting the work again that Tom Cloyd did and saying just your work matters. That is your opinion and your extreme POV and you can have your opinion but it does not belong on the page. You can't just keep reverting others work like this. You act like a bully. You have swore, shown anger, voice your opinion over and over and claim that everyone does but you. Would you like me to find the WP rules about that or do you understand the word without them? I hope you do. Try working those of us that want to edit instead of trying to block every single move please! Your actions are irrational and self important. ~ty (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying your work doesn't matter. I'm saying the specific issues raised here are problematic and should not be repeated. Don't repeat them and I don't have a problem.

The rules on civility do not specifically forbid profanity, or showing anger. If I'm wrong, please point me to the appropriate policy or guideline. At this point, I don't know whether you want to edit. While I've made a variety of improvements to the page, and limited myself because of the activity on the talk page, the only substantive edits I've seen are minor edits , , full-fleged reverts claiming "partial consensus" is adequate, and the return of a primary source which I think is inappropriate, as does Doc James. What do you think of including Jang et al PMID 9653418 in the page? I would still like to remove it because it is a primary source. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh my! WLU! You know full well what you have done. You have bullied those that want to edit, so all editing was stopped except YOURS! We have agreed time and time again to follow WP rules and yet you still have not brought back Tom's version! That is the version we need to work on. You need to allow others to work here and not just you and those you approve of!~ty (talk) 18:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

If you have a problem with my conduct, feel free to bring it up in an appropriate venue such as WP:WQA or a WP:RFC/U. Please indicate why the issues I raised in this talk page posting are not legitimate. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU - I am working on that, don't rush me. All good things come in time. In the meantime, I still have hope you can be reasonable and actually let others, who would like to work on this page, do so. You appear so lost in rules you cannot see clear anymore. You need to step back and take a look at your obsessive behavior. While I agree you have some good purpose here, you have taken it way too far, which happens often when someone gets too close to a subject. I have as much time as you have to devote to this page and I am not going anywhere. I am a writer, so I stay home all day and have nothing more pressing at the moment.~ty (talk) 18:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

How is asking people to adhere to the core content policies unreasonable? How is asking people not to remove reliable sources and significant controversies unreasonable? How is adding recent, reliable sources and removing primary sources unreasonable? How is asking people not to add unnecessary section headings unreasonable? How is asking for a short summary of Sybil, which several reliable sources indicate was a significant part of the history of DID, be included in the page unreasonable? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

If people need high quality refs drop me a note.

If all stick to high quality sources I am sure problems will decrease. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, my issue is not with the inclusion of high-quality sources. It's with high-quality sources being removed or excluded. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I enjoy your input Doc James. I would like to repeat what you mentioned before. Those references should be new. As you know the area of trauma research has gained enormously the last few years. The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation is a great site to find new research by respected professionals. www.isst-d.org The ISSTD seeks to advance clinical, scientific, and societal understanding about the prevalence and consequences of chronic trauma and dissociation.~ty (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

A standard starting point is PubMed at , which selects for pubmed-indexed and thus more respected journals and allows for review articles to be selected. The ISSTD is one notable source on DID, but I would guess its perspective is heavily weighted towards DID being solely or primarily the result of trauma - naturally other opinions published in reliable sources should be included.

Newer sources are important, and right now there are a considerable number of sources produced during the DID "bubble" () from the mid-90's. I agree that updating and replacing older sources with newer ones is important and should be a priority. However, that doesn't mean old sources can be discarded based solely on age; better is to replace them with newer ones, which has the advantage of demonstrating a more current perspective and weight on the relevant issues. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:00, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU - The problem with old sources is that they support old information that is now known to NOT be true. This is a rapidly changing area of psychology and either you stay current or you are just handing out incorrect information. Please consider reading some of the information at the ISSTD. This will help you with your knowledge base of current knowledge of DID and trauma issues.~ty (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Great, point me to sources that indicate the old information is not true. Point me to secondary sources that state there is no controversy over iatrogenesis. Point me to sources where scholars who formerly supported the iatrogenic hypothesis have now publicly stated they've changed their mind. If you can do this, then the information on iatrogenesis could be moved into the history section, or referred to in the past tense with qualification and exploration of how people used to think DID had iatrogenic components but now do not. I've found and integrated newer sources that discuss the iatrogenesis hypothesis, suggesting the issue is not dead .

A front page of a website isn't a specific source. I don't plan on reading an entire website. The most relevant sources are secondary - review articles and meta-analyses, as well as book chapters from respected mainstream publishers. Please don't point me to primary sources (i.e. single experiments and surveys) unless there is very good reason to integrate them, based on the restrictions found in WP:PSTS and WP:MEDREV. Misplaced Pages lags behind the cutting edge, we can only cite the most recent secondary sources available. In addition, we have to cite a balance of sources - it's very possible the ISSTD ignores or discounts the iatrogenesis hypothesis, and reading only sources published in their journals would completely ignore the other side of the debate. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Laughing - But MR. WLU! You have to first let us edit so we can do this! You revert edits then put your own edits on top of those so it's hard to do anything. You are holding up progress with your own opinions and extreme POV's! The ISSTD is the place were current information can be found on trauma and dissociative identity disorder. You should read it and educate yourself. The ISSTD is far from a primary source!~ty (talk) 17:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead and edit, just please do not repeat the edits I raised here. If you wish to repeat them, please raise them specifically on the talk page.

The ISSTD is an organization, it is not a source. It publishes reliable sources, but we link to each one individually - you can't just say "it's on the website". WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Saluting - YES SIR! Thank you for your permission oh General, but you keep forgetting Tom Cloyd's edits you reverted! I will first see what Tom Cloyd has to say since it is HIS edits that are in question that should be put back first before more editing is done. I did not suggest the ISSTD for a place to link, but for a place for you to go and read and learn about what Dissociative Identity Disorder is and is not. A place to read up to date information and the knowledge of experts.!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tylas (talk • contribs) 18:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

My rationale for the revert is here. DreamGuy appeared to agree with it here. I prefer to do my research on pubmed and google scholar; the former is a rough measure of reliability and the latter is very accessible. In this case specifically, I doubt the ISSTD presents a comprehensive picture of the opinion of DID within the entire field. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU, You discount the ISSTD by saying you "doubt". This means to me that you have not even bothered to go there and look. It is a wonderful place to find references to up to date material on DID and dissociation by the leaders in the field. See this ISSTD page and the following sources.

• Literature Searches
• PubMed Literature Search: Dissociative Disorders (pdf + links)
• PubMed Literature Search: Epidemiology, Comorbidity Dissociative Disorders
• PubMed Literature Search: Neurophysiology, Dissociative Disorders (pdf + links)
• The PubMed Search Engine at the National Library of Medicine ~ty (talk) 17:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

As I said above - linking to a front page proves nothing (nor does linking to a bunch of raw search results) and I think the ISSTD is a possible, if potentially biased, source of information. At no point did I say "anything published by the ISSTD is unacceptable". Feel free to integrate any of the more recent secondary sources found in the above searches into the main page (pubmed has an option on the right to select only review, i.e. secondary, articles). WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:21, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Editing Start Point - Restore Tom Cloyd's Edits

I suggest that Tom Cloyd do this himself so it is done correctly. ~ty (talk) 15:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

This statement by Tom Cloyd is powerful and bear repeating! "I NEED the DID article to be a reliable source of summary information of the best that we know about DID - for my clients, for interested laypersons (some of whom have relatives or loved ones with DID, and for my fellow professionals who are not DID specialists and need a quick, reliable overview, with some quality references to follow up with. Having this at Misplaced Pages would be a great service for all. THAT's what I want."

I hope this is what we all want. WLU, your interpretation of the rules and guidelines of WP bears no more weight than others interpretation of them. We have agreed to follow WP rules as we read them - not as you define them to us however. You need to compromise as well and put back Tom Cloyd's edits and work with us to improve this page.~ty (talk) 16:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, as I mentioned two days ago there were several issues and problems with "his" version that I consider problematic and should not be replaced. The page is not "correct" merely because one or two editors agree it is, the page must be in compliance with our core content policies of neutrality, verifiability and no original research. Neutrality is most relevant here, and NPOV requires all significant majority and minority views be represented. Do you agree to this? If so, most of the issues I have with your and Tom's edits will disappear.

The relevant body regarding interpretation of policies is the community as a whole. The consensus and interpretations of the policies by the community can be independently sought at a variety of noticeboards, including neutral point of view. I would suggest reviewing the NPOV tutorial, in particular the section on one-sided presentation. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU - As we proposed. His version was well done, but you had some issues with it. Restore the version and we will work on it from there. Your OPINION that your version is better is simply an opinion. Misplaced Pages is set up to allow improvement to the page, which you are stopping Tom Cloyd and others from doing. The page as it is not in compliance with compliance with our core content policies of neutrality, verifiability. The page is a mess, to put it mildly. It needs work. This is the ongoing process of WP, to IMPROVE a page. Please allow this process to move forward. Again, for the UMPTEENTH TIME, we are not going to remove all your precious controversy, but we do ask that you educate yourself in the area of DID please. The rules you keep posting we are following. Stop accusing us of doing otherwise! This same argument is getting so old!~ty (talk) 17:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, as I stated aboved and linked to via diff repeatedly. Your opinion is also an opinion and I don't see any reason that it is superior to mine. I propose you work with the current version to make incremental improvements that do not discount or remove criticisms of the iatrogenesis hypothesis and are in compliance with the manual of style.

How is the page out of compliance with WP:NPOV? You keep saying it is, but how do you know? What specifically is wrong with it? What sources support your claims? How is the page out of compliance with WP:V? Are there any unsourced statements? Feel free to remove them per WP:PROVEIT. Are any sources misrepresented? Please indicate which ones and how they are misrepresented.

Editing[REDACTED] isn't easy, it takes time, reading and experience and is based on specific sources and citations. So let's get specific. What, specifically, do you want to change on the page currently? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Does every editor for every page have to go through such policing to edit anything? I think not. Stand down and let others do work on the page. Nothing would ever get done. You can object if the edits do not meet WP criteria. This is getting ridiculous! Tom Cloyd did a lot of work and those edits need to be replaced! We can start from there. Your reverts of those edits were done because of your own OPINION!~ty (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

No, most pages work on the much more simple principle of WP:BRD. To date, I've made eight revisions to improve the sourcing with more recent textbooks and some citegnoming of the references to {{cite pmid}} which improves page loading speed. The next edit before this block of eight was Tom Cloyd's replacement of a primary source, which I and Doc James thought was inappropriate. Before that was one substantial reversion followed by five edits to replace a deleted source, add a point verified by a book published by Oxford University Press in 2008 and the addition of a 2006 study that describes the "bubble" of publishing on dissociative disorders in 1990. So, what, specifically, do you think was wrong with any of those edits? Feel free to make your own improvements as well. The issues I had with your previous edits can be found here; if you don't repeat them, I don't have any issue. If you do, I request you discuss them on the talk page first and include references to policies, guidelines and sources saying why you think they have merit. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:48, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

No offense Tylas, but your sole comments here seem to be to parrot anything and everything Tom Cloyd says, no matter how much they violate policy or how little sense those comments make. By now you have demonstrated a strategy consistent with sock puppetry or meat puppetry. It's odd that you call yourself a proponent of multiple personalities when you don't even seem to have a personality separate from Tom at all. DreamGuy (talk) 04:00, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I do take offense to that DG. Everyone on this page has made huge progress and you come and start problems again! Tom Cloyd and I agree on many things because we both understand DID and logical thinking. You and WLU could be said to mirror each other and be sock or meat puppets in that you are both ignorant of what DID really is and you try and wikilawyer and bullying everyone you do not agree with into leaving this page as stated by other contributors. You are like two guys pulling each others strings! You both gang up and try your best to eliminate editors you do not want contributing to the page. I am someone with DID who has read a great deal on the subject and am a writer. Tom Cloyd is a learned scholar, writer and seasoned therapist. Just because we are both rational thinkers and have a vast knowledge of DID does not make us what you claim! Quit throwing around threats and get with the program! Everyone here right now was trying to work and had made progress until you came back and start slamming people again! ~ty (talk) 05:11, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Consider the fact that you and Tom Cloyd may be wrong. DG and I mirror each other because we have a common understanding of the policies and guidelines, while you and Tom and DrJem don't appear to. For an experienced editors, the kinds of changes made by Tom Cloyd and your self and reverted by DG and I are both obvious and apparent in their errors. I have tried to point out why they were wrong by citing policies and guidelines - not using obscure interpretations, but in some cases exact quotes. I don't want to eliminate editors - I want my fellow editors to adhere to the same rule set that I do. For instance, I want Tom to use his expertise to find and summarize sources; if he stuck to that, I'd have no issue. However, using "expertise" and personal opinion to change the page without referencing sources, policies or guidelines is flatly inappropriate. You wouldn't write a review article, or even primary article, without reference to the extant literature - why would it be OK here (it's not per WP:V)? If you were submitting an article to a peer reviewed journal you'd have to format it according to their guidelines, why the objection to having to do so on[REDACTED] (it's not per WP:MOS)? And any expert can be biased by ignoring specific sources or viewpoints because they think the viewpoint lacks merit - however on[REDACTED] that's not appropriate per WP:NPOV. And why is it OK for yourself and Tom Cloyd to "echo" each other but if DG and agree - somehow that's different? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:43, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

disruptive editing

So much for "assume good faith". Personally, I have had it with WLU and his throughly disruptive ways. I have been following this discussion for a while. I too am a physican editor who has been the recipient of WLU's disruptive editing. See Abram Hoffer, where the same thing that is going on here went on, substitution of questionable sources for good ones, and so forth. Clearly, this editor is quite skilled in tying things in knots and at wikilawyering. Perhaps he hopes to make editing so difficult for expert editors that we leave. Enough is enough. Much more signifcant admins than him have been tossed off of here. Drjem3 (talk) 18:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikistalking, delightful. Individual character conduct should be dealt with through other venues than article talk pages, including WP:ANI, WP:WQA and WP:RFC/U. Do you have any specific concerns regarding this page, or do you have a specific concern regarding dissociative identity disorder.

I'm not an admin. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Your accusation of wikistalking is interesting given your stalking of Tom and his posts to other people's talk pages (which were inappropriate in content as well). —danhash (talk) 18:59, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Your recent edit replaced a link to the Merck manual that doesn't verify the text it is attached to, replaced The Skeptic's Dictionary which is not sufficiently reliable to be on the page anymore, removed two new recent and reliable sources verifying the text, replaced a large number of very old sources, undid considerable citegnoming that improves page performance, replaced the DSM as verifying text it doesn't actually verify, removed a secondary source and replaced it with a small sample primary source that was two years older and replaced added an unsourced block of text (per WP:PROVEIT, please provide a source before replacing it). I have reverted your change.

This looks like little more than an importation of an unrelated, pre-existing dispute we have on a totally separate page. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground, please do not carry grudges across pages.

Danhash, Tom Cloyd indicated he was going to be contacting other editors in #Canvassing. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom created that section after you posted on two talk pages. —danhash (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

See here, specifically "I'm placing the matter in other people's hands", which suggested a noticeboard posting was forthcoming. Note my first comment on a user's talk page based on Tom Cloyd's contribution history is here, which my timestamps puts 15 minutes later. Do you have any substantive comment regarding the policy, guideline or source-specific issues on the talk and article-space page? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

My comment is that you stalked his contributions and placed warnings on other people's talk pages in order to try to bully other editors out of the discussion that you are intent on dominating. Whatever you call it, that is inappropriate. —danhash (talk) 19:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

This is exactly right Mr Dan Hash, or at least it is how I see it. I am glad new people like you and Dr. Jem are here to speak up. Maybe you can get WLU and DG to listen to reason. :) ~ty (talk) 21:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope, I noted my preference for an independent review from one of the noticeboards. Where do you see bullying in my two brief comments indicating I would prefer an independent review? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The page has been reverted, which simply doesn't make any sense. It wasn't reverted to the version which eliminated iatrogenesis from the lead. All that was reverted were my citation improvements. Can anybody justify it to me? I could understand if it were reverted to this version or this version, but the latest revert by Tylas looks like little more than spite. Is there any policy or source-based reason why this is the version reverted to? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Your bullying is an obvious pattern continued by those two edits. And your bullying includes throwing CANVASS around like there's no tomorrow when Tom's actions were clearly within the limits of CANVASS. —danhash (talk) 19:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU has been a very,very, bad boy. The shrinks here likely have already made a diagnosis. As I note above, he has performed the same disruptive activities on other pages such as the bio of psychiatrist Abram Hoffer. Easily documentable-- same techniques, same spinning. Might be time to see just what else he has done. FWIW, I'm a physician, trained in the neurosciences. Far from cyberstalking, I have been following this page with interest, but holding off editing it because of him. What is the point when he disrupts everything and bullies everyone ? Only now have a decided to say something. Unfortunately, editors like him run off other editors who have better things to do. Needless to say, I agree with the concensus that WLU keeps trying to disrupt. Drjem3 (talk) 19:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Cue WLU's holier-than-thou response to every single word in your post... —danhash (talk) 19:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Danhash - yes, it was - but it was also questionable. For instance, he didn't alert DreamGuy, who he could be reasonably expect to disagree with him - part of canvas is not alerting a biased selection of editors as indicated by the "audience" column. I expressed my opinion and preference for a neutral opinion in a brief, polite fashion - hardly bullying. I didn't threaten, I linked to the relevant behavioural guideline, I didn't insist on my preference and based on his first two posts, there was a risk of attracting a partisan audience. It didn't turn out that way.

Drjem3, can you provide any diffs or policies that I have contravened? Can you point to a mainstream source that supports megavitamin therapy as anything but a fringe theory? An irrelevant question I shouldn't have to ask here. Can you explain why you have reverted to the page you did, aside from you disliking me personally?

So everybody is convinced that I'm a terrible, biased editor who is breaking numerous rules and can't work with others. Can anybody point me to those rules? Is there a reason my conduct hasn't been brought up by anybody in the appropriate venue, either WP:ANI, WP:WQA or WP:RFC/U? Can anyone point to any policies or guidelines that illustrate problems with my edits to mainspace or talk pages? And most importantly since it disrupts the actual point of[REDACTED] (we're an encyclopedia) can anyone justify why the page is on its current version? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have no wish to expand the current discussion beyond its current venue (here and a limited number of user talk pages), and I also am not trying to get you blocked or otherwise "in trouble". Even if I wanted to, your actions haven't risen to the level of "giant dick" yet, so there would be no point in advocating a block. I think it would be helpful for the discussion and edits to slow down quite a bit for a while, and for you to stop policing so hard and give others more of a chance. —danhash (talk) 20:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Check out Abram Hoffer and Talk:Abram Hoffer for another example of the same thing WLU is doing here. Complete to the same pleadings, misleading references to the wikirules, etc.. Drjem3 (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Please, by all means put together a general post to discuss my conduct. I've provided numerous venues that could be appropriate. I have no issue with it whatsoever and I will happily demonstrate how my actions are in line with the policies and guidelines. In the mean time, please do not let dislike of me affect the quality of the actual[REDACTED] page. Please justify how this revert improves the page, how the removal of sources and replacement with lower-quality, older sources, makes[REDACTED] better. I can't see it, it just looks like pique and spite. I get that people don't like me and find my approach high-handed, dickish and offensive. None of which are reasons to make the main page demonstrably worse. If my edits and references to the policies and guidelines are in any way misleading, please feel free to bring them to the attention of the larger community or point out how they are wrong. Please give specifics, diffs and links to policies and guidelines. Assuming I am wrong and everyone else is right - this will help me become a better editor. Vague pronouncements doesn't help anyone and doesn't help the actual page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU, I reverted your revert because Dr. Jem made edits and 2 minutes later you reverted them - if I read the stats correctly, even if I did not, you need to let others edit as well. I don't need to point out WP policy on this I hope. It's rather obvious. Don't accuse me of spite. Have I shown once bit of that in any of my posts? I have been kind and easy going but still trying to get my point across. You had no chance to even examine what Dr. Jem did before you reverted his edits! You did the same to Tom Cloyd and this is why I don't bother to try and edit yet, and I have a feeling it's the same reason others don't as well. Please stop your bullying! It would be very nice if you would stop it on all pages (as Dr. Jem points out) where you are doing it, not just this one. As I said early today, you serve a purpose, but you don't have to have such a strong hold on everyone! I think it's often referred to as control issues. I can deal with controlling people, but you are taking it to extremes! This is not an insult, but you wanted to become a better editor. It's about cooperation and all of us working together. To begin you must let go of your stranglehold a bit please and for you I am working on learning WP rules. :) ~ty (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

So your reason is that I reverted quickly? There is a substantially poorer version of the page, with worse referencing, unsourced text and longer page loading because of the replacement of {{cite pmid}} because you don't think I had time to review the changes? Can you point to a policy that would support it being OK to revert a change based on how long it was standing? I really, really think you do need to point the policy out here, more specifically I don't think there is a policy that supports your revert. Please do me the courtesy of linking to it. I know exactly what Dr. Jem did - he reverted to the last version before me by Tom Cloyd for no policy or guideline-based reason whatsoever . My edits demonstrably improved the page, both your reverts worsened it for no reason other than you dislike me personally. There's no policy or guideline that justifies "I don't like the editor who made the edits" as a reason to change the page. None. However, both WP:BATTLE and WP:POINT strongly suggest both of your edits were flat-out wrong. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 21:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't dislike you at all! I don't dislike anyone! I don't like some of the things you have been doing here however. I would be even nicer, but you hammered me even for that, so I stopped. It's your opinion that was a better version. It is apparently not Dr. Jem's.~ty (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Neither you, nor Drjem3 has explained why the previous version is better. Can you please do so? I have provided several reasons why it is substantially worse. Why is The Skeptic's Dictionary superior to two textbooks? Why is {{cite journal}} better than {{cite pmid}}? Why is a primary source from 1998 better than a secondary source from 2000? Why is an unsourced block of text better left in the page despite WP:PROVEIT? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 21:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Stepping back and applying shrink-skills-- if it is attention that WLU seeks, he is quite sucessful at getting it. Like a kid acting out, but well-practiced. In case anyone needs further examples of WLU's WP:ownership, he is also at it right now over on Abram Hoffer. Typical history-- I originally got tired of tussling with him, no cites were good enough, etc.,straw arguments (a speciality), and so went away (which was likely his intent). Got to allow that the boys has got staying power. Came back, half-expecting him to do the same behavioral repertoire, and was not disappointed. As before, miscites wikirules, rationalizes everything, etc.. And then dares anyone to call him on it. Drjem3 (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

This might be appreciated on this page. All normal brains have parts of the self. WLU, you seem to have a part that is disruptive when allowed to run to wild. It is of course not your entire personality at fault, but a part of it needs some guidance. If someone like me with DID and well over 200 parts of the self can control her-selves, I would think that you could. Please try and smile :) some today too! By the way, I agree that you should manually get rid of that reference to the Skeptic Dic. That's an awful link, but the page needs to stay where it is and let everyone work on it. ~ty (talk) 21:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Abram Hoffer was a proponent of megavitamin therapy, a form of quackery with no mainstream respect and no reputable evidence base. If you want to discuss that page - do it over there.

Not a single person has cited any meaningful policy, guideline or source based reason to revert the page, though you're spending an awful lot of time ignoring my arguments and playing psychologist. Tylas' suggestion of "getting rid of Skepdic" addresses only one of several improvements I made to the page. What about the inclusion of Rubin, 2005 and Weiten, 2010? What about the information verified by Skepdic that would be unsourced if removed, but sourced to Weiten if reverted? What about the use of the DSM to verify that DID is iatrogenic in suggestive individuals, which the DSM doesn't actually say? What about the use of a small sample primary source used to verify a list of comorbidities, which was replaced by a secondary source that was two years newer? What about the placement of Rhoades & Sar in a citation template that links to a google books preview? What about the use of Rubin, 2005 to verify proponents believe DID is underdiagnosed and lacks a population-wide assessment of incidence and prevalence? Why is the removal of Skepdic, a minor change that didn't substantially alter the content of the page but merely improved the referencing, more important than these changes? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 23:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WUL - Thank you for your patience. Of course, go in and edit what you deem fit, just lets all do things slowly and let everyone work on the page. I do appreciate you! ~ty (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Fine, I'll revert to the improved version while keeping the subsequent changes made by other editors. Note that I was very scrupulous to retain subsequent edits . WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:09, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Reverting everything back to your version again is not what the rest of us here were working towards and you know it. You just do not seem to be able to control yourself. You keep reverting the page. I would have to call this an edit war and you are the one doing it. This is against Wiki rules and you know the one I mean.~ty (talk) 17:14, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Tylas, can you provide me any reason why this version is better than this version? If you can't, I would venture that reverting to the former version was a bad idea and ended up making the page worse in the process. If you can give me any reason why the former version is better than the latter, I will gladly listen and give you my opinion. Insisting that I am simply wrong without giving any actual reasons serves only to perpetuate the conflict and takes time away from actually improving the page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, listen. Accusations of wikistalking are very poor form here. Also, trying to justify edits here by attacking someone for allegedly improper edits on another article are also not cool. All this wikidrama accomplishes nothing. Please focus on this article and this article only. Editing here to complain about edits on another article is not editing in good faith, as it appears solely to be revenge edits. Furthermore, claiming someone should not be allowed to edit by claiming they made improper arguments about canvassing rules only works if they actually made improper arguments. There is very clear vote stacking going on here through extremely blatant meat puppetry and tag teaming. The new editors magically showing up here to weigh in don't see to have anything on topic to discuss and only occasionally manage to stay on topic long enough to repeat back word for word what was already said. This is not editing in good faith, and it is not any sort of informed discussion. The ones screaming the most about bullying here are the ones clearly guilty of it. DreamGuy (talk) 04:06, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

So the only way to make DG and WLU happy is to use their version of the article and discount all that Tom Cloyd did. For the umpteenth time - please return the version to Tom Cloyd's version and keep edits since that point. WLU, your reversion of all those edits and work he made was wrong and you won't give an inch! You are forcing him to do all that work again, just so you get your way. His edits were excellent. DG, you just back up whatever WLU says, so yeah, I know you disagree with this already. No need to pop in later after things are working again and cause trouble. You are both still playing Wiki police and not allowing anyone do to anything other than minor clean ups. This page in is major need of work, as even WLU has said on his talk page - if I remember right.~ty (talk) 05:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

No, the only way to make us happy is to adhere to a common set of policies and guidelines. You're right I won't give an inch - but you keep ignoring why. You claim Tom Cloyd's edits are "excellent", what about the issues I pointed out here? Or my objection to your revert here? You claim we're biased and mean, yet we're not the ones making edits without reference to policies, guidelines and sources. Competence is required, understanding the policies and guidelines is required, and some degree of understanding, at this point I'd settle for evidence of my posts even being read, is required. Edits like this aren't minor clean-ups, they're the very opposite. You removed a series of unarguable improvements to a main page, and never, ever gave any justification despite multiple posts both pointing out the improvements and asking for a justification , , , , , . If you genuinely want the page to improve, you need to focus on the specific edit, no the editor who makes it, and why the edit does, or does not, improve the page - based on the policies and guidelines.

Yes, I did say the page needed an overhaul, here. This is a diff, they're very important to use when referring to other editors' conduct and bring broad statements down to specifics. It would be very helpful if everyone used them. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:59, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Developmental theory - #3

tylas, I kept in the spirit of your small edit but I believe the way I've written it is clearer. Thoughts? diff Forgotten Faces (talk) 23:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, see this one. I forgot something. Forgotten Faces (talk) 23:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you FF! You Rock!~ty (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I have a question about the source used. Google books does have the book, but does not have a free preview, only search inside . The developmental theory section of the page mentions sects and torture, which tickles the part of my brain keenly aware of the satanic ritual abuse moral panic. I've done keyword searches in the book for torture, tortures, cult, cults, sect and sects and none returned anything within the appropriate page range of 266-7. Does anyone here have the book handy? Can you confirm, and ideally provide a quote, of the section in question? The idea that DID can be deliberately and reliably induced by torture is a pretty far-out claim and I'd like to make sure the source isn't being misrepresented. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:22, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

An extreme claim? Hardly. Once again, you show how little you know about this subject. This is why we spend years in graduate school doing supervised reading, until we master enough of the literature to be able to speak with authority, and to be able to continue our study post-graduation without driving ourselves into some kind of intellectual ditch. I'm not addressing the specifics the above reference, or the assertion which it is supposedly supporting (which I haven't looked at). I'm just saying that your ignorance is showing.

That said, kudos for how you're handling this, for once. For the most part, I find your response to Tylas refreshingly appropriate. I like what I'm reading, a lot. Good job.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:14, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm asking what this source has to say about this point. Can someone provide me with the relevant quote? Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. If you can't link a specific piece of text to a specific and explicit statement in a source - the text should be removed. Rather than lecturing me on the benefits of a graduate education, I would appreciate it if you had spent your time looking up the source to find the appropriate page number and quote because I have a genuine concern that it doesn't actually verify the text it is attached to. Your graduate education didn't include a lecture on how to edit wikipedia, or you'd realize why I'm asking for the clarification I am. The relevant quote, please, or a substitute reliable source, or I'll remove the entire section for failing verification. That is what I am asking for and why. Again, you don't get to change the page because you agree with a point, like it, or have a vague idea that it's true - you need a source. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:21, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU, check out this (reference 40 in the current article) - pg 5 right up corner. "A related phenomenon is encountered in those MPD patients, often alleging a history of ritual abuse, who have had the experience of having had their dissociative structures deliberately shaped and influenced by their abusers." There is an example of Kluft mentioning it, although I don't know if it's enough to be a reference for developmental theory. I'm trying to find more references, in any case. What do you think everyone? Doing my best, still learning. Forgotten Faces (talk) 13:51, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, see here. #10 listed on page 46 Forgotten Faces (talk) 13:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC).

And #3, pg 16 Forgotten Faces (talk) 14:04, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The PDF by Kluft is from 1989, which makes it 23 years old - and it was a busy 23 years. The SRA phenomenon itself went from a major and serious concern to the general conclusion that it was a huge moral panic. I'd really, really rather use a newer reference than that one.

Link two is, astonishingly, to a book focussed on satanic ritual abuse published by Springer. I'm frankly astonished to see such a prestigious and respected publishing house turning out something giving this topic credibilty. There is indeed a list on page 46 and the whole chapter, probably the whole book, discusses the ability to create DID through torture and ritual abuse. The section in question cites no references, in fact the entire chapter doesn't seem to cite any. The book doesn't even seem to have a references section, just a list of resources . My preview cuts out, so perhaps the start of the references list is on page 288 which I can't see.

Is your third link actually a journal? I think it's a google books preview (a convenience link) for this article. Karnac as a publisher makes me leery because they published an astonishingly credulous book on, again, satanic ritual abuse in 2008. The section I think you're alluding to actually starts on page 15, and cites Noblitt & Perskin's 2008 self-published book on satanic ritual abuse. I had thought Karnac was the only mainstream publisher that's still putting out information on SRA that actually takes it seriously and on that basis alone I would be very cautious to use them - though the second reference makes me question that statement. The greater problem is that this is a "throwaway" mention in an article on a substantially different topic. If we're going to discuss the potential to deliberately induce DID through torture, I'd want a source that discussed it in detail (#2 for instance). I'd only use this source to verify something like "some people believe DID can be induced by torture" and even then I'd rather find something of higher quality and more detail.

2 and 3 could be used to verify text that DID can be created by torture, but if we were going to use it I would like a comment from the reliable sources noticeboard before integrating anything. I also would use #2 rather than #3 since it's specific and lengthy. I had thought the SRA issue was dead and buried, only of interest to people operating outside the mainstream. Perhaps I'm wrong - I'm curious if there are any more recent peer reviewed articles on the topic, not just books. Books are good, they can be reliable sources, but they're also easier to use to push fringe and minority ideas.

However, the issues for this section specifically would be that integrating 2 or 3 into the developmental theory section is that the numbered list is currently sourced to Carson et al. and just sliding in these extra references would be original research (specifically, a synthesis). If this is a genuine, credible theory (deliberate torture can be used to actually induce dissociative identities) it should be part of a separate section section of Causes. We can't just slide it into that list.

This opens a whole different topic, my original issue was this - does Carson et al. 2006 actually contain this list, or more specifically the idea that DID can be induced by torture? If so, fine (though I would prefer a quote if at all possible - otherwise I'll try to find it at my local library). If Carson doesn't say this, the idea should be removed from the list and reworded to be closer to what Carson actually says. If not, the idea that DID can be deliberately induced via torture should be discussed in a different section with different references. It's a section that I'm currently extremely uncomfortable with including, but if the appropriate sources can be found and RSN gives the OK then my only consideration would be the weight given, with particular consideration to what the current journal articles are saying about it. If we can find a lot of books, but very few journal articles, I would question giving it much space. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:48, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, WLU! I feel as if we are actually starting to get something done here after all the dramatics (on all sides) of the past few days...

I am obviously lost on weight of references and things like that - thank you for explaining your reasoning and I will learn from your remarks - and I will attempt to find more information on this. I knew you were looking for the Carson et al. information, but just had an idea in the meantime to look for other possible sources of information on the same topic. The reason I am stuck on it is despite not having the educational background and expertise of yourself and people like Tom, I do have a very good understanding of how the disorder itself works and know there are good references somewhere about deliberate creation of parts of self (as we are referring to them on the article). You might notice I am picking out rather minor things to change/work on but I am sticking to stuff I have more of an idea about for now. Everyone else can argue on the other points... I am trying to not get involved in the back and forth... thanks for your time, WLU and everyone. On another note, I can see where you are coming from on the possible weight given if it's added to causes. I'm sure we can come to an agreement on something once we have further information regarding the source materials. Forgotten Faces (talk) 19:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

If everyone provided sources as you did rather than focusing on blaming me for everything bad on the page, we'd be much further along.

I may have access to the 5th edition, if nobody else can check the text I'll see about digging up a copy.

Weight, in practice, isn't that hard to deal with - you generally just keep looking up sources until you run out. Parse them by quality of publisher (for books, if they have a[REDACTED] page, good, if that page says "scholarly", better, if there is a reference praising it for high-quality scholarship, best; articles are usually assessed on the basis of journal reputation, impact factor, number of times cited and author reputation), check for any reviews (for books), post questions at the RSN, and if it's really weird, you might try the fringe theories noticeboard. I'm genuinely curious what Tom Cloyd's assessment of the satanic ritual abuse angle is since I had thought the issue had died. To see Springer producing what I thought had been seen as patent nonsense by professionals has forced a re-assessment. My reading regarding the ability to induce DID deliberately through torture, not to mention the evidence for this, indicated it was considered utter nonsense. I'm not sure if the books represent the lonely writings of those few still nursing the theory of if there is genuine scholarly interest. From my understanding, efforts to produce Manchurian candidates were tried and failed and the original source for these rumours (specifically, RA to induce alters was developed by Dr. Greenbaum, a Jewish doctor working for the Nazis(!) who was scooped out of Europe post WWII via operation paperclip) was a patient of D. Corydon Hammond's answering yes/no questions through finger movements - and generally this is considered an extremely suspect source. I believe Dr. Hammond himself ended up declaiming it a couple years after his famous speech. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:34, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I re-wrote the developmental theory part again to hopefully be more even more clear, as I realized I missed the point about the/a caregiver which is an important one (imo) and put the part about deliberate induction at the end. I don't object to removing it completely as long as we are actively working on adding something about it wherever it'd be most appropriate based on what pans out with the books/articles.

Personally, I believe parts of self can be induced purposefully. But I have no proof of that of course and don't believe it happened to me. That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge of it, though in my experience I've met many clinicians who definitely believe it has/does happen. But then we get into further controversy so I'll stop there. Forgotten Faces (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Err, I reverted my changes. Got way too ahead of myself there... Forgotten Faces (talk) 20:06, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

(ec)As I indicated on your talk page, without the original source this is pretty tricky to do in a way that respectes WP:V. One very helpful thing would be a key word or phrase in the original source that I could pop into the snippet view avaiable to me; I just can't find any of the original keywords appearing in the relevant page range. Also, look at this version from January, 2010 (picked at random as I was trying to figure out the original context added by whoever first included it). This includes no mention of groups, torture, cults, sects or anything related. It looks like the original insertion was here, and again no mention. Somewhere between January 2010 and now the text got changed. I'll try to figure out when and by who. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:12, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I finally found the original edit to introduce this bit of information, it was added in August and not by the original poster. In fact, this person added several bits of unsourced information. On that basis, I'm going to remove the text for failing WP:V, and returning the list to a bulleted format (nothing to do with the bad info being added, I just think it's neater). WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The only thing I would like to change is any mention of 'separate personality', if that isn't too far away from the source material... parts of self or something similar is more accurate and less sensational. Forgotten Faces (talk) 20:47, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I actually managed to track down the section with the snippet view (search for "subconscious", this link might work too ) and it looks like that list is verbatim (and a copyright violation!)

I've reworded. Probably not great but possibly true to the source. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:57, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Eh, I don't really like the wording but I can't seem to come up with anything better right now. Maybe someone else can or I'll try again later. Thanks again. Forgotten Faces (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers

WLU and Dreamguy - please review this Misplaced Pages Rule

Here are some points perhaps that were forgotten long ago.

New members are prospective contributors and are therefore Misplaced Pages's most valuable resource.

We must treat newcomers with kindness and patience — nothing scares potentially valuable contributors away faster than hostility.

Observe for a while and, if necessary, ask what the newcomer is trying to achieve before concluding that their efforts are substandard or that they are simply "wrong".

When giving advice, tone down the rhetoric a few notches from the usual mellow discourse that dominates Misplaced Pages. Make the newcomer feel genuinely welcome, not as though they must win your approval in order to be granted membership into an exclusive club. Any new domain of concentrated, special-purpose human activity has its own specialized structures, which take time to learn (and which benefit from periodic re-examination and revision).

Do not call newcomers disparaging names such as "sockpuppet" or "meatpuppet".

Assume good faith on the part of newcomers. They most likely want to help out. Give them a chance!

The principle "Ignorantia juris non excusat" (Latin for: "ignorance of the law does not excuse") is incompatible with the guidelines of not biting and assuming good faith. In this case, ignorance of Misplaced Pages's guidelines can excuse the mistakes of a newcomer. Furthermore, you yourself violate Misplaced Pages's guidelines and policies when you attack a new user for ignorance of them. Try instead to follow the points set forth in this article to relieve new editors of their ignorance. Keep in mind that this is not the way many other things work, and even seasoned editors fail to follow our guidelines from time to time. Ignorance of the written law is one thing, disregarding suggested laws regarding unrestrained editorial construction of an online Encyclopedia is quite another. If you exclude editors without "Barnstars" and the like from your circle you probably diminish the final product.~ty (talk) 06:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely. This is a superb post.

These ideas were nowhere in evidence when I showed up with 6.5 hours of carefully crafted edits a few days ago. No welcoming, no invitation to assist in improving the article, no discussion of the reasons for my edits. Simply across the board rejection. So much for assuming good faith.

To WLU and co.: It's really good to know that my years of research, scholarship, and thousands of hours of clinical work are welcome here, as presenting a fresh perspective and valuable resource. THAT, folks, is how you work to keep Misplaced Pages the realm of tweeners with keyboards, and amateurs with an over-inflated sense of themselves. The people who really know a subject usually just walk away in disgust.

However, in this case, you made a huge miscalculation. Had you done the most elemental homework on me, and had you been capable of an adaptive response to what you learned, we'd be in a different place today. As it is, if I see the slightest chance to run you out of here permanently, I'll take it. I know why I'm here. I also have a pretty good idea why you're here, and I do not like what I see. I have, in the last 24 hours changed my mind about filing a complaint. You will be notified.

All my other plans, re: working for a more constructive social climate here, are unchanged.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Competence is required. Right now most of the newcomers don't actually understand the policies or guidelines. Edits to the main page don't get to stay because the person that made them is super nice. All editors are expected to use reliable sources to verify text that is summarized in the page without engaging in original research to the proportion they are found in the scholarly community. WP:BITE doesn't over-ride that. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:23, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

No progress being made on the DID article

I don't like to use the word police, because I adore these people, but when the word extreme is added to it, I think many know what I mean. I am in no way a therapist with psychology training, but WLU and Dreamguy appear to be exhibiting many obsessive tendencies such as their anger and threats. Also, Mr. WLU, I think you have a good heart and really want what is best for WP, but you appear to have become far too obsessive in this work. You have become a hindrance to WP instead of a help. One example of many that those involved in this conversation, I am sure have noticed.

You, Mr. WLU reverted ALL Tom Cloyd's edits, then instead of working to improve the citations, you instead use Wikilawyering and argue that his edits do not follow THE exact rules that you cite, (I am not saying I agree with you that he did not by the way.) no matter what the excellent content is that he added. So, you totally revert ALL Tom Cloyd's work. Then another professional shows up and reverts your edits. Within 2 minutes you revert this back to your version, so I revert it back to his version. Granted I thought I was taking it back to Tom Cloyd's version, which is where we should be and keeping all after edits.

At this point you become kin to a caged animal. You hit my talk page and rant and demand immediate revision back to your version. I can only imagine the panic you felt at this time. Then you could not contain yourself and you reverted the whole thing back to your version, but I am sure you did make sure you kept the small edits that were done after your revert since these did not really change anything you cared about on the page. Please don't use the excuse again you don't know where all this occurred and tell me that I need to go back and link to every single incident. This is not Kindergarten. As a psychologist on here mentioned - most here have probably done a quick (non-professional) diagnosis of your impairments. I again want to impress your importance to Misplaced Pages and this page, but I must point out that you have become so extreme in YOUR position that you cannot allow normal editing or progress to take place. It's become something far too obsessive for you.

As you requested many times, let me site some Wiki Rules.

Wiki Rule Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy While Misplaced Pages has many elements of a bureaucracy, it is not governed by statute: it is not a moot court, and rules are not the purpose of the community. Written rules do not themselves set accepted practice. Rather, they document already existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected. When instruction creep is found to have occurred, it should be removed.

While Misplaced Pages's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused. Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies. If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them. Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures. Furthermore, policies and guidelines themselves may be changed to reflect evolving consensus.

A procedural error made in a proposal or request is not grounds for rejecting that proposal or request. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground The fifth pillar of Misplaced Pages's five pillars: "Misplaced Pages does not have firm rules."' Editors should interact with each other in a respectful and civil manner.

One of, if not my first interaction with you is you coming to my talk page swearing at me and threatening me. As one person here said, you have been a very very very bad boy! But you don't see it! You just see us all as being non-wiki professionals and as such have no right to edit a page on DID, of which many of us are quite capable of doing!

The bottom line is you really need to let people edit. You should pop in once in a while and make sure that the page is in accordance with Wiki rules, but if you give us some leeway, we will do that ourselves. You DEMAND immediate adherence to your interpretation of the Wiki-rules thereby enforcing your EXTREME POV! - but my interpretation of all that is, you have an obsessive problem, and you bring it here and that obsession is stopping many editors from working on this page.

I will go and find more Wiki rules if you really insist, but this is getting old. To be honest I don't want to spend my time appealing to a board and dealing with more of your wiki-lawyering. I would much rather you find in yourself a way to be reasonable and let work progress on this page. ~ty (talk) 16:45, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Please do find, read and cite more policies and guidelines. Per WP:TALKNEW could you change the section heading?

It doesn't matter if you're a therapist or a professional, wikipedia's articles are not edited based on the diagnosis of other editors - only sources. Please understand - qualifications do not matter, if you can't justify an edit to an aritcle with a policy, guideline, or most importantly a source, the edit should not stand. If you are referring to Drjem3's revert of my work, I've repeatedly pointed out why that revert was a bad idea, here is one spot.

What specifically do you think should be replaced of TomCloyd's edits, and why? I will address each one specifically. If I have made an error, I will not only correct it but ensure other editors do not revert without a good reason. I've repeatedly pointed to the list of reasons why I reverted TomCloyd's edits but here it is again. Please engage substantively - do you agree with any of my points? Which ones do you disagree with? Why?

You don't think citing IAR to justify a revert to a worse version of a page is wikilawyering? You think attempting to diagnose me, calling me a caged animal and police officer and comparing me to a third world dictator is civil?

Despite all these reams of posts on the talk page, I can't recall a single edit you've suggested or source presented for review. You've spent a lot of time calling me a bad man and claiming I own the page, but you've yet to actually substantially reply to my core points - TomCloyd's work had numerous flaws. I listed them. I just re-reviewed the comparison between my revert and the pre-revert version with an eye toward any changes I inappropriately reverted. I found, and replaced one. The rest I stand by and will re-explain why each change is inappropriate if you'd like.

If you genuinely want this page to be productive and move forward - let's talk about specific edits to the main page, and the sources we should use. Lengthy posts about who got done wrong by whom when doesn't help at all, nor does comparing me to a dictator. It does nicely keep the acrimony and drama rolling forward, which I'd rather avoid. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:11, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a work in progress: perfection is not required

Perfection is not required: Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. Collaborative editing means that incomplete or poorly written first drafts can evolve over time into excellent articles. Even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcome. For instance, one person may start an article with an overview of a subject or a few random facts. Another may help standardize the article's formatting, or have additional facts and figures or a graphic to add. Yet another may bring better balance to the views represented in the article, and perform fact-checking and sourcing to existing content. At any point during this process, the article may become disorganized or contain substandard writing.

Bottom line is 2 editors here are not allowing any progress on the DID page.~ty (talk) 17:38, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, , , , , , , , .

This is the opposite of progress in my opinion, and I have yet to see anyone provide a reason why they were good changes.

The major problems I had were generally those of ommission; text was not preserved. Sometimes poorly-sourced or undue weight items need to be removed. I don't think any of the changes bar one were appropriate removals, particularly from the lead section which must summarize the key points of the body. Iatrogenesis is one such point since it is a major source of disagreement in the field. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:05, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Continued

What WLU says is unobjectionable. The problem is that that is not what he does. Sometimes a duck is a duck and every now and then "assume good faith" breaks down. Time after time, professinally-trained editors who come here in good faith and with the intent of collegial editing get driven off by this sort of thing. I myself have a lot better things to do than get into editing fights on wikipedia. Drjem3 (talk) 18:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

So take it to a WP:RFC/U, make a WP:WQA post, or start a section at WP:ANI. You're not going to resolve it here. I also have better things to do than bicker over hairsplitting over policies and arguing with accounts who don't understand MEDRS, NPOV or FRINGE but when those misunderstandings affect page quality and content, I respond.

Seriously, if my actions are so genuinely harmful to wikipedia, I'll be blocked or page banned - but only if you take it to the appropriate venue. You're wasting your time here, but feel free to complain about me on Misplaced Pages Review or a personal blog. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:35, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I have been here essentially as long as you have and have even contributed a bit to the policy pages. Same with the other editors who find your behavior objectionable. Can't speak for them, but I figure I understand what is good wikipractice about as well as anyone can. What you are doing is not it. Minimally, the concensus here seems to be very strongly against you. So stop disrupting this page. Drjem3 (talk) 19:41, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Have a look at these two links: , . Notice any differences? I dare say I've more contributions than my "opponents" combined, probably several times over. However, this matters about as much as your credentials. I've made many, many posts here asking specific questions about specific points and sources, while the response has been vague assertions of bias. You still haven't given any reason for the revert you made. I daresay you can't justify it and it looks very, very much like tit-for-tat spite editing.

You've made four minor grammatical edits to one policy page, and three edits to the relevant talk page.

Vague pronouncements are all very well and good, but[REDACTED] is built on specific sources verifying specific points. Have any specifics to comment on? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

No, WLU. Normally, the call for specifics would be welcome and appropriate. But at this point, it's irrelevant, because you do not know how to agree, to join with someone, and to make constructive consensus. You know how to argue endlessly. The problem isn't ignorance of the P&G, which after all only codifies, for the most part what we are all taught in our professional graduate and research training (if we had such training).

The problem is your behavior - your and DreamGuy's. You do make some excellent points about procedure, etc., and I'll address that shortly. But that won't help unless you grasp the real message here.

It's quite simple: Two mental health professionals have appeared here in the last few days, who, combined, surely have decades of study, research, and clinical practice. We've paid dearly for what we now have. We see value in sharing it. Were we in any way welcomed? Was it in any was articulated that there was some kind of positive response experienced in either of you when seeing our interest in the article? Did you ever think that we might be worked with so as to materially improve the article?

YOUR answer is irrelevant, because our clear subjective experience is No, No, and No. I think that's been made clear. That appears to be irrelevant to you. I was never met with "good faith", and still am not.

All you know how to do is run us off. You have no idea how to accomplish consensus, or possibly no interest in it, or more likely both. This is, to my eye, sociopathic behavior. It doesn't matter how "right" you are - if this is the EFFECT of your actions, you're wrong.

You need both to leave, immediately.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:41, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

That would be ideal!~ty (talk) 09:19, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

• Tom, just like DreamGuy's personal attack on you a while ago was not acceptable, it is not acceptable for you to accuse other editors of sociopathic behavior. Neither can you tell people to stay off a page, nobody owns an article. The level of discussion on this talk page is way below what is acceptable and usual here at WP. I call on everyone to stop calling each other names and to discuss only issues, not each other's behavior. In the last two weeks, more text has been added to this talk page than in all the years before together. I call on EVERYBODY to take a deep breath and step back for a while. Why don't you all stop editing here for the weekend, do something fun in real life, and then come back on Monday. I propose that at that time, you rationally and reasonably discuss this page, one edit at a time. Go slow, as the subject obviously is contentious and you all obviously care about it deeply. Hence: my proposal to take it one edit at a time. Don't make the edit. Propose it here and try to come to an agreement on it, then carry it out. Then go to the next edit. As everybody here has the same goal (i.e., writing a high-quality encyclopedic article), it should be possible to find consensus. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 14:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

• B-Class psychology articles
• High-importance psychology articles
• WikiProject Psychology articles
• B-Class medicine articles
• Mid-importance medicine articles
• B-Class psychiatry articles
• Mid-importance psychiatry articles
• Psychiatry task force articles
• All WikiProject Medicine pages