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| You need to find a good source to add a claim like that. Just adding a sentence like that is a big dispute to scholars all around, find legitimate sources that state something like as you wrote than maybe we can discuss further. To what my knowledge only Azerbaijan sources usually claim that Azeri people are descendants of Albanians. A source that is neutral and with reliable author is what we need to go with that claim. --] (]) 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC) | You need to find a good source to add a claim like that. Just adding a sentence like that is a big dispute to scholars all around, find legitimate sources that state something like as you wrote than maybe we can discuss further. To what my knowledge only Azerbaijan sources usually claim that Azeri people are descendants of Albanians. A source that is neutral and with reliable author is what we need to go with that claim. --] (]) 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC) | ||
| The sentence was almost entirely taken from the "Origins" section at the page ] and it seemed to me that certain page have went through enough of discussions. That's why I thought those sources I gave are reliable enough. ] (]) 23:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
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Confusion between Parthian and Caucasian Albanian
Twilight-chill quotes from this source: The author is Murtazali S. Gadjiev which is fine (I do not know his expterise), but he is not stating that Caucasian Albanian had an Aramic based script. The Aramaic based script is about Albania not Albanians (two extremly different things). He is talking about Parthian which was based on the Aramaic script. As Gadjiev states: “It is possible therefore, that the establishment in Albania of Arsacid Parthian dynasty, which ruled Iran from the late third century BC through the early third century AD, that the language and literature for the administrator and the record-keeping of the imperial chancellery for external affairs naturally became Parthian and that the system in turn was based on the Aramaic script” Note the Parthian language is an Iranian language and not at all related to Caucasian Albanian. The Aramaic script described is for the Parthian language.
About the actual Caucasian Albanian script, the book (incidentally same page states): “The first independent or original Caucasian Albanian script dated from the beginning of the fifth century AD, where Mashtots, in conjunction with the priest and translator Albanian Benjamin, worked with the consent of the higher secular and religious authorities of the country, King Ahswahen and Bishop Jeremy, to create the original Albanian alphabet”. I believe if a source is presented, it should be presented in its full here. The alphabet of Albania (not Albanians) described by Gadjiev is the Aramaic script of Parthian and not the Caucasian Albanian alphabet. In conclusion Gadjiev states very clear that Mashtot created the first and independent original Caucasian Albanian script in the same page. So one must not confuse the Parthian language based on Aramaic script with the Caucasian Albanian language (which we hardly know about) and whose script was created by Mashtot. That is script of Caucasian Albania (geography) is a different concept than the Caucasian Albanian script. About the map that users are disagreeing with, the map is during the Parthian rulers of Albania who were part of the larger Sassanid empire. They were either Vassals of the Sassanids or under direct control of the Marzuban, and either way, they had intermarried heavily with the Sassanids. Anyhow, that is another issue, but please do not confuse Parthian language which is an Iranian language written in a modified Aramaic script with Albanian. Thanks. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 01:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC) Also I noted that the same author Gadjiev stats about Middle Persian: "To summarize the argument briefly, it is evident that the Middle Persian language and writing had official status in early medieval Albania.". Note I do not know about the scholarly quality of Gadjiev but he is not stating any different with regards to Parthian and Albanian script than other books. The Aramaic script was used for Parthian and than Middle Persian, not Albanian. However, he does affirm that both Parthian and Middle Persian (which are very close and to large extent mutually intelligble languages) were official languages in Albania. Consequently, I have found higher quality sources (Western ones and Toumanoff (who is a well known expert) in order to avoide the disputes above) and have added both languages in the infobox. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Middle Persian and Parthian
Middle Persian as the official language of Sassanids is a well known fact and Albania was part of the Sassanid empire. A source has been added with this regard. Here is a quote from the same source as Twilightchill was using with regards to Middle Persian. Gadjiev states about Middle Persian: "To summarize the argument briefly, it is evident that the Middle Persian language and writing had official status in early medieval Albania).
The same book again states:"It is worth emphasizing that the official seal of the Christian church of Albania was inscribed with Middle Persian writing, for it clearly demonstrates that the large cultural and political influence of Iran and shows that Middle Persian language and writing permeated not only the Albanian elite but also the ecclestial elite" (pg 105, ibid). Note usually the elites were actually Parthian (like the Arsacid dynasty of Albania) and not Albanian (speakers of Caucasian languages). The same with the elites of Armenia and Georgia at the same time.
As per Parthian, again Albania was ruled by the Parthians. The same source twilightchill highlighted is clear about the Parthian language and its usage in Albania: "“It is possible therefore, that the establishment in Albania of Arsacid Parthian dynasty, which ruled Iran from the late third century BC through the early third century AD, that the language and literature for the administrator and the record-keeping of the imperial chancellery for external affairs naturally became Parthian and that the system in turn was based on the Aramaic script” " .
As I personally do not know how reliable the author is, however, I brought the more exact statement of the well known scholar Cyrill Toumanoff: "Whatever the sporadic suzerainty of Rome, the country was now a part—together with Iberia (East Georgia) and (Caucasian) Albania, where other Arsacid branched reigned—of a pan-Arsacid family federation. Culturally, the predominance of Hellenism, as under the Artaxiads, was now followed by a predominance of “Iranianism,” and, symptomatically, instead of Greek, as before, Parthian became the language of the educated"(Toumanoff, Cyril. The Arsacids. Encyclopædia Iranica). See also Arsacid Dynasty of Caucasian Albania. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 12:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
WP:CHERRY and NPOV claims
TwilightChill has been disruptive deleting parts of the article appealing to WP:CHERRY and NPOV policies. concerns do not apply. The chapter on Caucasian Albania and Azerbaijani revisionism are about a well known academic subject that is reported in works of a number of unrelated, unbiased Western and Russian scholars from reputable academic institutions. These are: Robert Hewsen, Thomas de Waal, Victor Schnirelmann, George Bournoutian and Yoav Karny. All of them have the same opinion that Azeri revisionism is a nationalist doctrine that misuses the history of Caucasian Albania. So, NPOV is covered. In fact, I omitted their more expressive language to keep the chapter on the neutral side. WP:CHERRY does not apply because there are no NPOV sources which would refute or question the assessment of the above mentioned academics. TwilightChill shall collaborate with other editors and refrain from disruptive tactics. Gorzaim (talk) 19:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
- The entire section on the so-called Azerbaijani historical revisionism is a blatant NPOV violation, written without impartial tone. As for Mashtots, his invention is challenged in at least two primary source-citing work, one of which is given above, and as such should be paraphrased accordingly. Twilightchill t 23:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
- According to Kamilla Trever: Mashtots' biographer... Koryun reports that Mesrop Mashtots upon his arrival "to the country of Albanians renewed their alphabet". Twilightchill t 12:15, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- Trever in the source that you mentioned says that Mashtots invented the three alphabets before saying that he renewed. This source is already internally contradictory, and primary sources are more important that various "opinions" by this or that scholar. Any other non-self-contradictory source confirming that? You also say that the chapter is "blatant NPOV violation." This is a groundless assertion. I see no reasons why it is, see my paragraph above, and it is clear to me so far that you can bring no evidence that it is. Gorzaim (talk) 20:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- That seems kinda problematic, but the section titled "Caucasian Albania and Azerbaijani historical revisionism" departs anyway as a manifest NPOV breach. Twilightchill t 23:42, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- My feeling is that this "Azerbaijani revisionism" section is too long and mostly off-topic for this article. The article is about Caucasian Albania, with (we hope) content derived from credible and acceptable sources. Large sections of content should not about what propagandistic or popularist sources have claimed Caucasian Albania is/was, nor should they be about what neutral sources have said about those claims. Wouldn't it be better to put it in a new article, titled "Azerbaijani historical revisionism" or something like that, with just a summary and wikilink in this article? Scribblescribblescribble (talk) 23:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- That seems kinda problematic, but the section titled "Caucasian Albania and Azerbaijani historical revisionism" departs anyway as a manifest NPOV breach. Twilightchill t 23:42, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree but agree as well. Caucasian Albania is by far the largest topic about Caucasian Albania by coverage, and the most important context in which Caucasian Albania is mentioned. However, your suggestion about creating a separate article about Azerbaijani historical revisionism is reasonable. Gorzaim (talk) 19:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Trever in the source that you mentioned says that Mashtots invented the three alphabets before saying that he renewed. This source is already internally contradictory, and primary sources are more important that various "opinions" by this or that scholar. Any other non-self-contradictory source confirming that? You also say that the chapter is "blatant NPOV violation." This is a groundless assertion. I see no reasons why it is, see my paragraph above, and it is clear to me so far that you can bring no evidence that it is. Gorzaim (talk) 20:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Please do not add POV claims, the wiki articles are not a place for propaganda. Also, there's a lot of Armenian revisionism described by the same Shnirelman and de Waal, why the section should be only about Azerbaijani and not Armenian revisionism? How about describing revisionist claims by the likes of Mnatsakanyan and Ulubabyan, etc, I can write a large section about Armenian revisionism. I just see no point in adding to the article info that has no direct relation to this ancient state. Grandmaster 08:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please do not vandalize this article, and do not voice unfounded accusations of propaganda, which is violation of WP:Civility. You are free to add to the content of the chapter if you feel it is incomplete. Politicization of history of Caucasian Albania is a key identification of this topic, as per numerous sources. Also, primary sources of C.Albania are constantly manipulated and all those who are interested in the history of this territory should know who manipulates them and why. Please assume cooperative attitude. Vandorenfm (talk) 19:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please reach consensus for your controversial edits first. Even admins at WP:AE agreed that this section is not in line with WP:NPOV. If we are to talk about revisionism, lets talk about Armenian revisionism as well. All the mentioned authors, including Shnirelman, de Waal and Hewsen, talk in length about Armenian revisionists. How come that the section only concerns Azerbaijani authors? Plus, what does it have to do with Albania anyway? If you insist on having it, we will need to dedicate it to both revisionists, and present the Armenian revisionist position as well. Grandmaster 08:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- You are alone in your claims that the edits are controversial and this is because you push POV. Your contributions in this article show that. You came late and now put forward an ultimatum about consensus. Admins said it "looked like" this edits are controversial but they remained silent when counterarguments were made, and they admitted they are not subject matter experts. Also, I see that the chapter has already been modified to satisfy such concerns. One editor clearly said that discussion of revisionism is relevant for Caucasian Albania. Shnirelman, de Waal and Hewsen do not talk "in length" about "Armenian revisionists." I do not see evidence of that. But if you feel that they do, you may suggest to modify the text on talk pages. I am telling this to you for the second time but you are not listening. What you do is disruptive editing. You remove portions of the article to hide a particular subject from the public eye? You reach consensus with all other participants who support(ed) these edits, and then we will think how to incorporate your contributions. Now you are repeating Twilight Chill's mistakes who was banned for disruptive behavior. Vandorenfm (talk) 21:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- I went over all the sources mentioned by Grandmaster earlier in the thread which supposedly criticize Armenians as well for distorting history of C.A. for political reasons but found only one reference in Schnirelmann. de Waal or Karny and others do not have anything. So, Schnirelmann's opinion does not triangulate. I think he blurted this about Armenians in order not to look too anti-Azerbaijani, i.e. for "balance." However, I mentioned his opinion in references. If there are serious sources supporting Schnirelmann, this mention could be moved from references to main text of the chapter. I also added more references where Azerbaijani political (mis)use of the history of C.A is discussed. These sources are available from Google Books and are easily verifiable. Gorzaim (talk) 19:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
- Somehow this seem to be out of balance. One way to deal with the problem: create a separate sub-article, specifically about AA revisionism controversies (as on ruwiki), and only briefly mention it in this article.Biophys (talk) 22:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions
Because of the continued nationalistic edit-warring about this article and associated disruption, I am imposing the following sanctions:
| Under the Arbitration Committee's decision at WP:ARBAA2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement, the following discretionary sanctions apply to this article:
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These sanctions are also logged on the case page and displayed to editors in the article and talk page's edit notice. Sandstein 21:33, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Islamic era split
Any input regarding this split? I found this on an old backlog.... Or can this simply be removed Tiggerjay (talk) 06:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
- Split declined. No rationale given. SilkTork * 11:29, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
26 tribes ? who are they ?
Strabo was talk about 26 Alban tribes. Can anyone write their names here ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.106.135.192 (talk) 17:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Strabo (XI.4) just says that in his time the Albanians were united under one king although in the past they were divided on account of their 26 separate languages. He just calls all of the people Albanians, though, and doesn't go into detail. — LlywelynII 22:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Albania, not Alvania
Just as a reminder, Ancient Greek -β- is transliterated /b/, not /v/ as it often is in Modern Greek. See: Romanization of Greek. — LlywelynII 22:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Possible sources for article expansion
Seeing the above, not sure if the guy is coming with too much baggage, but
seems to be pretty knowledgeable about the subject. Even if his findings (e.g. on etymology) are questionable, I would think his research and theories could be incorporated, given the appropriate NPOV tone. — LlywelynII 03:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- This is farther out there, but still interesting:
- 180-181: “Pliny says, “when Alexander the Great was on his Indian expedition he was presented by the king of Albania with a dog of unusual size,” which successfully attacked both a lion and an elephant in his presence. The same story is repeated by his copyist, Solinus, without any change in the name of the country. Now, we know from the united testimony of Strabo, Diodorus, and Curtius, that the Indian king who presented Alexander with these fighting dogs was Sophites, and he, therefore, must have been the king of Albania. For this name, I propose to read Labania, by the simple transposition of the first two letters. Alban would, therefore, become Laban which at once suggests the Sanskrit word lavana, or ‘salt’, as the original of this hitherto puzzling name. The mountain itself is named Oromenus by Pliny, who notes that the kings of the country derived a greater revenue from the rock salt than either gold or pearls. This name is probably intended for the Sanskrit Raumaka, which according to the Pandits, is the name of the salt brought from the hill country of Ruma…”
- Reference - Sastri, Surendranath Majumdar. 1924. Cunningham’s Ancient Geography of India. Chuckervertty, Chatterjee & Co. Ltd. Calcutta.
- cited on this discussion list. Strabo puts Albania in the right place but also goes on about their salt production. Conflation of two different polities, maybe? More sources? — LlywelynII 03:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Please add to the Article !
Anthropology Caucasian Alban
During the construction of Mingechaur reservoir in western Azerbaijan, have been found skeletons of ancient burial certificate of the fact that the physical type of the ancient population of Caucasian Albania was the same how modern. It was a thin-faced miniature Caspians. Direct descendants of which are Azerbaijanis. Historically, it looked like this: some ancient people with the characteristics of Indo-Afghan race moved from their original habitat - from Afghanistan or a North India - to the north: in the desert oases of Central Asia and Eastern Transcaucasia. Thus, the origins of physical characteristics of the modern population of Azerbaijan go back to the early Iron Age. --Elgun.babayev (talk) 10:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Present day Azerbaijans descendants of Caucasian Albanian
You need to find a good source to add a claim like that. Just adding a sentence like that is a big dispute to scholars all around, find legitimate sources that state something like as you wrote than maybe we can discuss further. To what my knowledge only Azerbaijan sources usually claim that Azeri people are descendants of Albanians. A source that is neutral and with reliable author is what we need to go with that claim. --Nocturnal781 (talk) 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
The sentence was almost entirely taken from the "Origins" section at the page Azerbaijani people and it seemed to me that certain page have went through enough of discussions. That's why I thought those sources I gave are reliable enough. Azerbek (talk) 23:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- В.П. Алексеев. "ДАННЫЕ АНТРОПОЛОГИИ К ЭТНОГЕНЕЗУ ТЮРКСКИХ НАРОДОВ". imp.rudn.ru. Archived from the original on 2011-08-25.
- исследования в Азербайджане
- М. Б. МЕДНИКОВА, А. П. БУЖИЛОВА, М. В. ДОБРОВОЛЬСКАЯ, Г. В. ЛЕБЕДИНСКАЯ АНТРОПОЛОГИЧЕСКИЕ МАТЕРИАЛЫ ИЗ ВЕЛИКЕНТА (РАСКОПКИ 1995—1998 гг.)
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