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Misplaced Pages:SOPA_initiative

The Wikimedia Foundation has already hired a K Street lobbyist to lobby for "civil rights/civil liberties" but some political activists now want to use wikipedia.org as their advocacy vehicle. Besides the obvious WP:NPOV concern I see this initiative as likely to eventually undermine the philosophy behind WP:NOR if it isn't reined in. Why? Because the general philosophy behind no original research is that Misplaced Pages is passive, we follow instead of trying to blaze a trail. If Misplaced Pages turns crusader with respect to some legislation being debated in Washington, it's going to lend support to crusaders with respect to Misplaced Pages content who will use "ends justify the means" thinking to say original research is OK if it serves some libertarian agenda. I see "no original research" as a particularly "stay on the reservation" sort of instruction that would be particularly threatened if Misplaced Pages as whole has set a precedent of going off on its own. This Talk page is not the place to discuss SOPA but persons familiar with WP:NOR arguments may wish to express themselves on the appropriate SOPA pages.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

NPOV regards content of articles, and conflating that with SOPA is incorrect. People do not to think about issues outside their immediate area unless the issues become big news—it would be irresponsible for Misplaced Pages to fail to inform readers of the likely consequences of lobbyist-driven legislation that directly affects Misplaced Pages. Johnuniq (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Is aggregation of primary sources synthesis?

Hello, I was wondering if aggregation of primary sources was considered synthesis. Consider the following two examples where the citations are primary sources:

A. Studies showed that result A was attained.

B. Studies showed that result A was attained, though some studies claimed result B was attained .

My personal preference is that these are exactly what belongs in encyclopedic knowledge. Though, some people are claiming these are "border line" synthesis. What is the consensus opinion about topics like these? Gsonnenf (talk) 17:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

If are reliable sources they can be considered significant viewpoints and an article need to mention them. See WP:DUE.--Useerup (talk) 17:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

It all depends if they are primary sources or not (see WP:PRIMARY). If it's medical studies, and they're primary, then it's often synthesis to draw conclusions from different studies. Per WP:MEDRS, you should rely instead on review articles, which are secondary. Jayjg 19:23, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg, you have a conflict of interest on this subject as you are a person I am in dispute with. I recommend you let people who are not involved in the dispute answer. I already presented a strong case that using evidence and quotes from WP:PRIMARY, WP:MEDRS, WP:SYNTH and WP:DUE that aggregation is not synthesis. I came here to get a neutral POV from people not involved in the discussion. I believe your answering of the question was in bad faith because you did not state your conflict of interest. Gsonnenf (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

It can be difficult to give a correct answer with only an abstracted situation. What is the article in question, and has it already been discussed on a talk page?   Will Beback  talk  23:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The article is circumcision. There were many instances removal of primary sources added to a secondary source, or were presented when a secondary source wasn't available on a specific topic. The talk page contains elements of the most recent debate under #Primary Research and #Recent additions.Gsonnenf (talk) 23:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with citing medical studies with a form like "According to a study by X, Y is true", provided the opinion cited to X is literally the opinion X gives (i.e., without extra interpretation). Interpretation of the result beyond the words used by X requires a reliable secondary source. Zero 00:30, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

• This is illegitimate SYNTHESIS, and a MEDRS violation. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

• IMO, primary sources should only be used rarely and with great care. The best use for them is to provide an illustration to something already covered in a secondary source. The idea that it's OK to use them if a secondary source can't be found is all wrong. One big problem with using primary sources is that they often require interpretation, which we're forbidden from doing, and that it can be hard to judge all of the externalities, such as their reliability and relevance. On a well-developed topic like circumcision there's very little reason to use them.   Will Beback  talk  02:26, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

It is synthesis. TFD (talk) 07:12, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the guidlines via WP:SYNTH, i'm not really sure how it could be synthesis. Synthesis appears to be defined as follows:

"Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."

And if we look at the what synthesis is not page WP:SYNTHNOT we can review the following:

SYNTH is not an advocacy tool: If someone doesn't like what was said, and they therefore cry SYNTH, others almost certainly will be right to cry foul. Virtually anything can be shoehorned into a broad reading of SYNTH, but the vast majority of it shouldn't be.

"SYNTH is not a rigid rule :Misplaced Pages doesn't have them, supposedly. But if a policy gets enforced zealously, it can be hard to tell the difference. The solution is not to enforce policies zealously. Never use a policy in such a way that the net effect will be to stop people from improving an article.

"SYNTH is not presumed: If you want to revert something on the grounds that it's SYNTH, you should be able to explain what new thesis is being introduced and why it's not verified by the sources. You don't have to put the whole explanation in the edit summary, but if someone asks on the talk page, you should have something better ready than "Of course it's SYNTH. You prove it isn't." The burden of proof is light: just explaining what new assertion is made will do, and then it's up to the other editor to show that your reading is unreasonable. But in any disagreement, the initial burden of proof is on the person making the claim, and the claim that something is SYNTH is no exception."

with that said, it would be proper to ask what new assertion is being made by aggregating that is not supported by the sources. Gsonnenf (talk) 16:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:SYNTHNOT is an essay. It has no implications for policy, it's just someone's personal views. Since you appear to have a great deal of difficulty understanding WP:SYNTH, instead please review WP:MEDRS, which is very clear, particularly in relation to using primary sources versus review articles. Jayjg 17:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg, I'm sorry you feel the need to wp:hound all my posts. This was a question about whether aggregating sources is synth. This was not a question on primary sources in WP:MEDRS. That is a different topic entirely. If you would be so kind as to stop following me around to every topic I post on, it would be appreciated.

My question to those who disagree is: What new information is being synthesized by aggregating sources? Gsonnenf (talk) 18:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You are making a medical evaluation from synthesis of primary sources. You have been repeatedly told that you cannot do this. Your I don't hear that behaviour has become disruptive; I strongly urge you to stop it and accept that the community has established WP:MEDRS as the standard for making medical claims . Fifelfoo (talk) 22:48, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

In addition to what Fifelfoo has said, you have accused me of "wp:hounding all posts". I have, in fact, responded to your claims on this specific issue, and this specific issue only, in several (though not all) of the fora in which you raised it. You, on the other hand, have now followed me to a completely unrelated discussion in order to oppose me there. Unlike what I have done, you are now actually WP:HOUNDing me, and that better be the last time you do it. Jayjg 22:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Jaysg, you followed me here, and you followed me to an individuals talk page to harass me. Their were several arguments on the previous page. I wasn't discussing the Primary source here, I was discussing aggregation, not primary source in wp:medrs. Your inability to understand that I am asking a question far different than I am asking is unproductive and feels like harassment and bad wiki lawyering. If you have something to constructive to say about the actual question, please by all means say it, then let the discussion continue without disrupting it repeatedly. Thank you.Gsonnenf (talk) 05:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

" Is aggregation of primary sources synthesis? " yes it is illegitimate synthesis, and it is original research. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes Fifelfoo, I understand from your earlier comment that you believe it is synth. Other people have commented that it isn't synth. What I'm trying to find out is "what is being synthesized?", excuse me for being obtuse but I can't seem to figure out what would be reasonably synthesized in this case. I'm sure the people who think it is Synth have a rational explanation to this they would like to share with those people who do not believe it is synth. I'm also sure this article will stop when people lose interest., though 2 days is a very short amount of time. Gsonnenf (talk) 06:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

It is synthesis and not permitted. This is a well-documented subject and so there are ample secondary sources available which must conform to WP:MEDRS. Mathsci (talk) 09:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's my take. Assuming arguendo the sources are secondary, or are appropriate primary sources (assuming such a thing exists), and that they are not being misrepresented, it is not only appropriate but required to outline both results or points of view. The caution has to be in representing sources accurately without synthesis or new interpretation. That said, however, caution must be applied in how you list the different points. Any elaboration on the differences would be OR without a source for that elaboration. If you use a conjunction to join the two statements, which conjunction is used should be a careful choice, so as not to imply either side is more important. As a final reminder, though, it's the fact these are primary sources that requires the greatest caution. SamBC(talk) 14:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Policy on primary sources is too extreme

At present WP:Primary states:

Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors.

The second sentence:

Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully.

states a useful purpose of secondary and tertiary sources: "to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources" and suggests the reasonable position that "primary sources are permitted if used carefully". These useful guidelines are followed up upon in the last sentence:

All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors.

which very sensibly is intended to caution against introduction of "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims" based upon primary sources.

It then goes much farther stating:

Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided.

This statement requires some revision because it goes beyond the sensible purposes described in the rest of this paragraph to completely ban the use of primary sources unless secondary or tertiary sources are used. This statement is not required by the others, and is unnecessary to achieve the goals already pointed out. I believe it originates in the worry that contributors that compose an article using only primary sources will fall into the traps already identified in the other sentences of this paragraph, and rather than deal with that possibility, an iron law is being applied that goes too far.

There are circumstances when an article that uses only primary sources makes sense. As an example, suppose that an article were written to detail the various state requirements on becoming a district attorney. It could refer only to the laws adopted by each state in this regard, and therefore use only primary sources. It is purely descriptive and contains no interpretation, synthesis, or whatever. There would be nothing wrong with that article, and it could be a useful article on WP. However, this sentence: " Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." suggests such an article should not be accepted.

I'd suggest that this sentence be deleted from the policy. The other sentences in this paragraph suffice to avoid abuse. Brews ohare (talk) 18:02, 4 February 2012 (UTC)