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Neo-Isolationist or Non-interventionist?

Mead has made an error describing "Paulites" which I corrected. A neo-isolationist, does not trade with others a non-interventionist does. since ron paul is the latter, do we really need a source claiming "paulites" are as well? my edit was undone with the following, "no source provided to show Paul uses that description for his supporters in the Tea Party movement" Darkstar1st (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

We discussed this before. Isolationists called themselves "non-interventionists", but neutrality requires us to use the terminology generally used in academic writing and newspaper reporting. TFD (talk) 23:29, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

the two are not mutually exclusive, isolationism means no trade, the other does not. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/26/news/la-pn-ron-paul-diplomatic-relations-with-cuba-at-florida-debate-20120126 Darkstar1st (talk) 00:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

It's time to set wiki-lawyering and other agendas aside and get that really stupid statement (that everybody here knows is wrong and nobody here has claimed to be correct) out of the article. North8000 (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Darkstar1st, your source mentions neither term. In any case, your qualification of the descriptions used by Mead, which are presented in quotes, is POV-pushing. TFD (talk) 05:10, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

i reject the premise one needs a source to clarify one's supporters believe the same. the link i provide was an example of Paul being the opposite of an isolationist, opening trade with long time enemy Cuba hardly fits that definition, would you agree? Darkstar1st (talk) 11:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Historical examples of supporters of non-interventionism are US Presidents George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who both favored nonintervention in European Wars while maintaining free trade. Other proponents include United States Senator Robert Taft and United States Congressman Ron Paul.

Nonintervention is distinct from, and often confused with isolationism, the latter featuring economic nationalism (protectionism) and restrictive immigration. Proponents of non-interventionism distinguish their policies from isolationism through their advocacy of more open national relations, to include diplomacy and free trade. Darkstar1st (talk) 12:12, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

No one is calling Ron Paul an isolationist, so your concern is misplaced. Also, please note that "Paulites" is a term created and defined by Mead in his essay, to describe a particular set of views held by some Tea Partiers. Finally, please note that Mead refers to Paulites as isolationists only with respect to military actions and alliances, not trade and economics, which is basically the same thing as calling Paulites non-interventionists. Xenophrenic (talk) 09:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Darkstar1st, can you try to have your edits conform to Misplaced Pages standards? Thanks! — goethean ॐ 18:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Mead obviously made an error about Paul; nobody here is defending it, just wiki-lawyering to keep it in. If the error stays in the least we can do is put in accurate material as well, doubly so since it is a living person that Mead mis-characterized. Actually, extraordinary / contentious claims about living person need multiple sources. The erroneous material should be taken out until multiple sources are found for it, and it's very unlikely that multiple sources will repeat what is an obvious error. North8000 (talk) 18:52, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The claim made in the article is that is what Mead said. Only if we stated as a fact that Paul was a neo-isolationist would the issue of contentiousness arise. Although certain writers have tried to re-define "isolationism", that information properly belongs in another article. TFD (talk) 19:22, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

So the erroneous statement about Paul belongs but the correct one is off-topic? If this article is specializing in allowing only erroneous statements, we should re-title it.  :-) North8000 (talk) 19:37, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Gothean, which specific policy did my edit violate? which policy did you cite to undo my edit? Darkstar1st (talk) 20:05, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

• Mead obviously made an error about Paul... --North8000

Mead refers to "trends" by large groups of people, not specifically to Paul's politics, although he does choose to name subgroups after Paul and Palin -- probably not a good practice in the long-run. Politicians are known, individually, for their shifting stances — especially on foreign policy — while large groups tend to be more stable in their defined demographic. Mead's essay studies large subsections of the tea party movement, not a particular politician. Does anyone know if Paul has responded directly to Mead's analysis yet? Xenophrenic (talk) 17:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

We've discussed this exact issue at length previously, so this discussion is a bit tendentious. I'll repeat that Mead is a highly regarded expert in his field. It's not the job of Misplaced Pages editors to correct "errors" made by credentialed academics writing within their field of expertise in the most prestigious publication on the issue of foreign affairs. If there is a different view we can add that, but we should not second-guess the experts.   Will Beback  talk  21:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

By "tendentious" I assume that you mean that your preferred version is still in there so you would prefer that there not be further discussion?  :-) North8000 (talk) 23:22, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a reference to WP:TE.   Will Beback  talk  23:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Ron Paul has repeatedly rejected the term isolationist. evidently large groups of the population do not understand the difference. "The lead story in today's The New York Times refers to Ron Paul's "non-interventionist foreign policy views," in contrast with the paper's usual description of his position as "isolationist," which is both pejorative and inaccurate. Isolationism suggests not merely a bias against the use of military force but a desire to avoid any engagement with the rest of the world, including trade, diplomacy, immigration, and cultural exchange. Paul has never been an isolationist in that sense.", Jacob Sullum,Jan 2, 2012 Darkstar1st (talk) 23:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC).

This article is not about Paul. It's about the TPM. Mead is not writing about Paul, he's writing about the "Paulite wing" of the TPM. Also, if you're going to cite a webpage please add the URL. It's inconsiderate to make your fellow editors hunt down the text.   Will Beback  talk  23:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

See: http://reason.com/blog/2012/01/02/ron-paul-does-not-call-himself-an-isolat Fat&Happy (talk) 00:18, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a brief mention of the Tea Party, but none of Mead. If folks want to summarize what the NYT and Reason have to say about the TPM's foreign policy views that'd be fine. But that doesn't alter what Mead says about those views.   Will Beback  talk  00:27, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Will, the original link i found the article set off wp spam filter http://www.opposingview*.com/i/politics/2012-election/ron-paul-im-no-isolationist. the larger issue is Mead is just wrong and i think most people realize such. the two terms have vastly different meanings. Darkstar1st (talk) 00:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

So you have said. Repeatedly. If most people who are considered to have expertise in the subject → the only "most people" that really counts here – realize that Mead, considered an expert on the subject, is wrong in an important point he made in a premier journal on the subject, it shouldn't be all that difficult to provide an article of equivalent reliability to refute his conclusions. Personal opinions of any of us on this page don't constitute effective refutation (or confirmation, for that matter). Fat&Happy (talk) 00:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Mead is not writing about Paul, he's writing about the "Paulite wing", that would be like saying Christians do not believe in Christ. Darkstar1st (talk) 00:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If we have sources which say that Mead is wrong on this issue then let's include them.

Christians believe all kind of things (not all the same), including things which Christ never expressed opinions about.   Will Beback  talk  00:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but this is clearly an implied (erroneous) statement about Ron Paul.North8000 (talk) 12:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Recent addition of anti-TPM material

99.112.212.201 recently added a comment from an intelligent op-ed (and sourced to it) which was critical to the TPM. To the folks who are forever warring to maximize anti-TPM material here, putting in intelligent high level stuff like this is the way to do it, not warring and wikilawyering to keep in stories on a twitter comment, BBQ grills or spending forever to keep in what you know to be an mis-characterization (isolationist) of Ron Paul that even you know is in error. Do you really want to list "I wikilawyered to keep the the TPM article in junk status" on your mental list of Misplaced Pages accomplishments? North8000 (talk) 12:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

This maybe a useful addition in the vein of North8000's comment, Will the Tea Get Cold? (March 8, 2012 issue) by Sam Tanenhaus of Skocpol's and Foley's books (in Further Reading) and the book Tea Party Patriots: The Second American Revolution by Mark Meckler and Jenny Beth Martin of the Tea Party Patriots. The current review relates to the Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Ron Paul, and Mitt Romney.

And here is a Review Essay by Reihan Salam in March/April Foreign Affairs The Missing Middle in American Politics; How Moderate Republicans Became Extinct, regarding the Skocpol book and Rule and Ruin: The Downfall of Moderation and the Destruction of the Republican Party, From Eisenhower to the Tea Party by Geoffrey Kabaservice, who writes for the National Review. 99.112.212.147 (talk) 08:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is the wikilink for a FA article already included, David E. Campbell. 99.112.212.147 (talk) 08:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Bias

I don't even know where to start on this. There is a few feet long of critism, based off of Non-Neutral Sites. But when you see the Occupy Movement's page, there is not even a critism section even though they have a worse track record. WTH. Left Wing Bias as usual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Mentlegen (talk • contribs) 00:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Worst Article EVER

Without even going into NPOV issues, this article is so filled with pettiness and irrelevancies it is completely UNREADABLE. I suggest setting a (low) maximum byte limit and going from there.--24.42.159.214 (talk) 03:40, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Needs to be completely rewritten. I'm wondering if Misplaced Pages has a place where the disparity between what is being done to this article and the Occupy Movement article could be examined. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

actually it's a good article on a controversial topic--the critics here are expressing their own political views about the movement, rather than sober analysis of the article. They have no specific complaints. The article covers all the major points, uses good sources, has a balanced tone, and is quite thorough. Rjensen (talk) 20:08, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I consider it to be 90% junk and the article to be in junk status. Most of it is trivia (tweets, BBQ grills etc. 2nd hand rumors that someone in a crowd might have said something bad etc) gamed in to leave a negative impression. POV warriors have made it so difficult to fix that most people have either given up or aren't trying to fix it. Yes, probably the worst article ever, at least on a major topic. North8000 (talk) 20:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

the problem is that the Tea Party is not an organized anything--it's a mood among some voters, and that rumors are what it consists of and what gets covered in an encyclopedia. Rjensen (talk) 20:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I think that you are getting closer there. I think that it is an agenda,a mood, an identity and name associated with it. In a very loose sense a movement. Certainly can't treat or cover it as an organization. North8000 (talk) 21:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I must disagree with both of you. The TPM is well-organized into different groups around the country and the core belief that unifies them is fiscal conservatism. Malke 2010 (talk) 21:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, it IS true that the one common theme everywhere in TPM is fiscal conservatism. I guess that what I meant was that the organization aspect is secondary and that it is not monolithic. And that pretending that everything that everyone with that agenda does is ABOUT the TPM is how all of the trivia got gamed in. North8000 (talk) 22:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Either way, I'm thinking its time to try to fix the article North8000 (talk) 22:08, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

agreed, a total rewrite is in order. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:15, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

My own concern (and extensively and an ongoing one in feedback here) is the amount of trivia. To take out all of the "one low level guy did this" and "one low level guy might have done or said this" stuff. North8000 (talk) 23:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

The TPM is mostly a collection of personal activity --such as wearing costumes (is that trivial or representative?) --as for issues they mirror standard conservative themes. "fiscal conservatism" for example covers multiple contradictory themes (cutting budgets, cutting taxes on rich, cutting taxes on middle class, cutting deficits, cutting benefit programs, reduce borrowing from China, cutting waste, cutting the cost of medical care--all very different themes that show no TP unity. As for political unity their first big hero was a Massachusetts liberal (Sen Brown)--and one of their more famous candidates kept insisting she is not now and never has been a witch. Rjensen (talk) 01:21, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Also TP elements not in favor of stopping tax breaks for fossil-fuel interest, per Talk:Tea Party movement /Archive18# Energy Policy resource: Get the Energy Sector off the Dole. 108.73.113.5 (talk) 03:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

My answer to your question is in my proposed fix below. In short, editors would not put in trivia because they think it is representative. North8000 (talk) 11:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

If you use biased sources, you get a biased article. Use sources from here. – Lionel 01:51, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be a bit confused. Misplaced Pages is not a conservative political outlet. It is not owned by Koch Industries. It does not have to toe to party line on the Tea Party's agenda. It will use neutral sources such as The New York Times, not your partisan bullshit rakers. — goethean ॐ 16:23, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't be a dick. Arzel (talk) 00:36, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Arzel's thoughts are mine exactly. Plus NYT isn't exactly a shining example....it's about as unbiased as Rush Limbaugh, and less than many of the sources that Lionelt linked. North8000 (talk) 02:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Bias, perceived or otherwise, isn't an issue. Reputation for fact-checking and accuracy are the defining characteristics of a Misplaced Pages-compliant reliable source. Many "sources" on Lionelt's list comes up a little short in that department. (I'm tempted to quote Arzel's comments about WND from just a few days ago, but I'll refrain.) The New York Times meets Misplaced Pages's requirements. As for "trivia", I won't be relying on North8000's fine opinion as to what is or isn't "trivia" (or "junk", or "ABOUT the TP"...) until he has been published, and has developed the requisite reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Legions of equally unsubstantiated "Me too!" responses, with nothing more to advance the discussion, will be similarily considered. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

By "trivia" I meant putting specially selected local (specially selected from the millions of things that have been said or done at the local level) and putting into the top level national article. North8000 (talk) 12:01, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

"local"? "top level national"? "local level"? Interesting flip-flop there. TP apologists cry foul when the corporate and big money interests backing, promoting and steering the "movement" are pointed out, insisting the TP is just individual "grassroots" Americans organizing at the local level with no hierarchy or leadership. Yet when the focus is on these individuals, especially the ones who step up and take the reins in this movement (like the ones mentioned in this TPm article), the TP apologists throw the buggy into reverse and instead cry foul, insisting that these are just "low level" individuals, and dismissing them as not representative of the "top level national" movement. Yes, North8000, it is quite transparent what you really mean when you refer to particular article content as "trivia". Why do you suppose the WSJ, NYT, CSM, WaPo, Politico et al, "specially selected" these things to feature in their reporting, and which of those "millions of things" would you prefer to add instead or in addition? Xenophrenic (talk) 17:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Further response to Malke 2010. I guess my one other thought about treating it more as an agenda than an entity is that the latter has been used as a false premise to game in other material. Imagine that someone coined a term for people in favor of Obamacare, the "Careites". And pollsters found that people who favored Obamacare were also more likely to favor getting rid of laws against pedophilia. Considering the Careites to be an entity could be used as a basis for saying that the pedophilia poll material is germane to the Careite article and gaming it in. Such is obviously unrelated, but such has happened in this article. (for example, poll data on topics that have nothing to do with the TPM agenda)North8000 (talk) 11:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

North8000, you make an excellent point. The article is loaded with that. Let's work-up a plan for a complete rewrite. We can start with an outline. Also, Lionelt has made a very good point about the biased sources. The article is top-heavy with them. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:21, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Lionelt has indeed made a point about biased sources, and has even provided a link to some. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Xenophrenic, why are Lionelt's sources biased but your source, the NYTimes, is not? The left leaning bias of the NYTimes is legend. I agree that they do check their facts, but they are very selective about the facts they present and are very artful at how they present that selection. Mitt Romney will always be presented on the front page in a negative light, and Obama will always be presented in the positive. Mitt Romney could personally save the life of Mr. Salzberger, and his newspaper would find a way to make it sound much less than what it was. If you don't appreciate that, you haven't been reading the same NYTimes I've been reading here on the Left Coast. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Your issue appears to be with Misplaced Pages's reliable sources policy. Misplaced Pages does not buy the right-wing theory that the New York Times is a leftist rag, and that right-wing sources are more reliable. Please bring up your issues at a more appropriate venue. — goethean ॐ 17:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The comment was that NYT is biased just like the others noted. Wp:rs does not require objectivity, so biased sources can still pass wp:rs. So that doesn't mean exclude them, it just means that we have to recognize them for what they are. North8000 (talk) 18:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Quite right.Malke 2010 (talk) 20:42, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

You think that right-wing sources are more accurate than mainstream media sources. Misplaced Pages does not adhere to your world view. This is the source of the conflict. I suggest that you work out your differences in an appropriate forum. — goethean ॐ 20:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

@Malke: You asked me, "why are Lionelt's sources biased but your source, the NYTimes, is not?" I commented about Lionelt's source list; I don't recall making a comment about the NYTimes and bias, nor is the NYT "my source", so I'm not sure what you are asking. I did remark that the NYTimes is a reliable source. As a wise sage once remarked, "Reality has a well known liberal bias". Xenophrenic (talk) 21:14, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

@Xenophrenic, hello my friend. Love your quote. That is so you. Then we're all agreed that Lionelt's sources are just as reliable as the NYTimes? Malke 2010 (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

When evaluating where we agree and disagree on sources, please recall my above comment; I'll repeat it here: Bias, perceived or otherwise, isn't an issue. Reputation for fact-checking and accuracy are the defining characteristics of a Misplaced Pages-compliant reliable source. Many "sources" on Lionelt's list comes up a little short in that department. (I'm tempted to quote Arzel's comments about WND from just a few days ago, but I'll refrain.) The New York Times meets Misplaced Pages's requirements. I would also add, having participated in many discussions at WP:RSN, that the reliability of specific sources for specific material often needs to be reviewed on a case by case basis. A source deemed unreliable for assertion of fact, for example, might be suitable as a source for attributed opinion. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

@Goethean, please show me where I said that right wing sources are more reliable than left wing sources? Malke 2010 (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I intended to reply to User:North8000 (there seems to be very little different between your positions), who said that 'the NYT is about as biased as Rush Limbaugh.' No offense, but that's a crazy statement. — goethean ॐ 22:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, maybe my equating NYT degree of bias to Rush Limbaugh was a bit much, but implying that NYT is an unbiased (vs. left-leaning) source is also pretty crazy.  :-) North8000 (talk) 23:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Talk to people who are not Republicans sometime and you may find that the NYT is among the most respected publications in the world. By the way, this discussion right here is indicative of why we are making zero progress on the article. In the FOX News universe, the NYT is obviously left-wing propaganda. In the real world, it is a highly respected publication. Misplaced Pages is not part of the FOX News universe, and someone who lives in that universe will never be happy with this article. That's just due to a clash of worldviews. — goethean ॐ 01:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Worst article ever- proposed step 1 of fix

Take out the trivia and non-germane material. Anything that is not somehow ABOUT the TPM in general or some national (or at least regional) level aspect of it should go. This criteria would apply to the core topic of the coverage in the sources. North8000 (talk) 11:44, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I replied above. Let's start with an outline for a new article. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:23, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

My idea was to start nuking out the trivia and items not ABOUT the TPM per above. Then's we'd have an article 1/2 the size of the current one. And then rbuild with quality relevant stuff. North8000 (talk) 20:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay with me on the nuke thing. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:57, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

The first two that came to mind are the "propane grill damaged by a mystery person" and the "twitter tweet" items. Looks like the grill one is already in progress and so I plan to take the twitter tweet (by a low level guy) one out next. Meanwhile we should all look for some real quality material that is actually ABOUT the TPM, pro or con. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:19, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

on the propane grill incident--I read the articles and no person accuses the Tea party of any vandalism. The TP vigorously denounced vandalism. While Democrats accused REPUBLICANS of stirring up trouble--they did not accuse tea partiers. Rjensen (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Our Misplaced Pages article also does not "accuse the Tea Party of any vandalism". It does, however, accurately report that a Tea Party organizer from one city in Virginia, and the Chairman of a Tea Party organization in another Virginia city, posted what they thought was the home address of a representative who was voting for the health care bill -- and urged fellow TPers to visit him personally at his home to express their anger. It was relevant enough that other TPm leaders felt compelled to denounce the action.

Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, who has a following in the Tea Party movement, called the posting of Perriello's brother's address "appalling." "I think that is way over the line," he said. "I don't think it's close. It's an appalling approach. It's not civil discourse. It's an invitation to intimidation." (Link)

The section deals with more than just a cut gas line. It also is not about what Democrats accuse Republicans of doing; it is about the perception left with the public about the Tea Party activists, and how they handle it -- as noted in the first source article cited. (IMHO, they handle it with the pat response like all the others: denounce it as "not representative" of the whole group.) Xenophrenic (talk) 01:13, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, the "propane grill" was just the brief tag for it. It's also about 10 other things that have nothing to do with the TPM other than a Misplaced Pages editor wanted to put them in there for effect. North8000 (talk) 01:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

And even if all of that were not true, and everything that you said true, it still wouldn't belong. This is the top level article about a national US movement. Local items, much less local items seletected by wp editors for POV effect do not belong in there. North8000 (talk) 01:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

posting a mistaken address on its web site -- this seems to be the strongest attack ever made against the Tea Party. Rjensen (talk) 02:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

We need to delete that. And over the objections of the approx 2 folks who have kept this article locked down in POV junk status because they like it that way. North8000 (talk) 02:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Malke 2010 (talk) 07:02, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. I prefer to abide by Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution process, instead of your proposal to edit war your POV edits upon the article over the objection of other editors. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• the core belief that unifies them is fiscal conservatism

Not exactly, but that is the POV some editors have gamed into the article. The actual core belief that unifies them is the pretense of fiscal conservatism while Obama is in the White House. There was no "national movement" against fiscal irresponsibility until after Obama was elected, and poll after poll show TPers to be quite split (and even contrarian) on taxes, deficit and other fiscal matters.

• accused REPUBLICANS ... did not accuse tea partiers

Oh, yeah ... totally separate folks there. The sources must have been confused.

• posting a mistaken address on its web site -- this seems to be the strongest attack ever made against the Tea Party

You appear to have misread. Neither Rep. Perriello nor his brother are TPers, and the intimidation attack wasn't "against the Tea Party".

• Meanwhile we should all look for some real quality material that is actually ABOUT the TPM, pro or con.

Finally, a common sense suggestion. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. The edits North8000 is attempting to make are legitimate. Nobody is suggesting an edit war. Please don't throw around labels like that. Everything mentioned above is nonsense junk that has been gamed into the article. These are legitimate edits and should stand. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:00, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm finding it difficult to take your comment seriously when you say "don't throw around labels" in the same breath where you accuse editors of gaming "nonsense junk" into Misplaced Pages articles. North8000's proposal to delete content he doesn't personally like, over the objections of other editors, is the very definition of edit warring. A word-search of "nonsense junk" in Misplaced Pages's policy pages comes up empty, so I'll have to ask you to be more specific in describing your concerns (besides the obvious dislike of unflattering information usually exhibited by POV editors). Xenophrenic (talk) 20:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The cited articles DO connect, for example, the BBQ grill incident to the Tea Party Movement. To wit:

At the same time, the vandalism threatened to be a public relations disaster for the fledgling Tea Party movement, which has tried to argue that it is, in the words of Dick Armey, the chairman of the umbrella group FreedomWorks, “more well-mannered” than protesters on the left.

Leaders of the movement tried to contain the damage on Thursday, denouncing the violence and distancing themselves from those behind the acts. Some suggested that outsiders were responsible. In Colorado, where Representative Betsy Markey was among the Democrats reporting threats, Lesley Hollywood, the director of the Northern Colorado Tea Party, said, “Although many are frustrated by the passage of such controversial legislation, threats are absolutely not acceptable in any form, to any lawmaker, of any party.”

Much of the media coverage of the Tea Party Movement was negative. Media coverage of the movement regularly featured people bringing loaded guns to political events, people calling politicians racist names, people comparing the President to Adolf Hitler, etc. Misplaced Pages reflects the media's coverage of the movement. The fact that conservatives want to eliminate coverage of this material, and to make Misplaced Pages reflect the conservative media's coverage of the TPM, is unsurprising but irrelevant. — goethean ॐ 21:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Worst article ever- second attempt at step 1 of fix

My proposal is to take out all of the local trivia. Everything where the core of the item refers to actions by people who are not of national stature in the TPM or of national stature. And specifically to start with removal of the twitter tweet and propane grill paragraphs. North8000 (talk) 20:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support (as nominator) Per extensive supporting arguments over the last 6-8 months. WP:undue, massive POV problem, not germane, wp:synth violaitons by juxtaposition, not relevant, emblematic of the junk loaded-with-POV-trivia state of this article, and too narrow (specially selected from tens of thousand of local item) to be included in the top level article of a national US movement. North8000 (talk) 20:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
• I don't think that you are supposed to vote for your own proposal. — goethean ॐ 20:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
• Actually, no one is supposed to vote for the proposal. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
• Take out all of the local trivia? So there goes the whole Early local protest events section. And no-name Ryan Hecker's whole section would need to go; definitely no "top level" stuff in that section from that low-level solo-artist. Zack Christenson? Who the heck is he? The Gadsden flag stuff; a whole paragraph about just one of the many flags waved at protests -- too narrow, and has nothing to do with the national agenda -- gone. The sections on Herman Cain, Michelle Bachmann and Christine O'Donnell -- all national stature figures of relevance to the TP -- should probably have their presence in the article doubled, or perhaps tripled for WEIGHT parity. Overall, it sounds like a loss of a lot of good information to me. I disagree with the proposal. Could you please provide a link to the most persuasive "extensive supporting argument" for your proposal, so that I may review it? Perhaps that will give me a better idea of the reasoning for your proposed deletions. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support Agree with North8000. Xenophrenic, my friend, relax. Time marches on, new things arise, and the article must change to keep up. There's far to much here that is undue weight, etc. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite relaxed, Malke :-) Reclined, in fact! And yes, while time marches on, and articles change, Misplaced Pages's policy against POV-pushing has not changed. Let's keep all editing policy-compliant, shall we? Xenophrenic (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• support the article has several errors:
  • 1. the word "movement" is a distraction from the common usage of "the tea party"
  • 2. the tea party was born on dec 16, 2007 by Ron Paul supporters, 100% grass-roots, small contributors.
  • 3. undue weight given to what others think about the tea party. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

• Editors have always been encouraged to improve the article rather than removing sections which contain material which editors personally dislike. That invitation stands. Find prominent scholarly analyses of the movement and summarize them fairly and neutrally. I doubt that anyone will stop you. — goethean ॐ 20:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Everybody who is doing it please stop with the invented "personally dislike" criteria crap. Persons say that are missing wp:agf by two levels....BIBF- Baselessly Inventing Bad Faith. My proposal is to take all trivia out. And dozens of people have said that the main problem with the article is that it is loaded with trivia. So, central to improving the article is removing the trivia. North8000 (talk) 21:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know, your near-constant advocacy, which has lasted for how many months now, of removing all of the critical material from this article, and replacing it with a more sympathetic narrative, has absolutely nothing — nothing, I tell you! — with your personal devotion to the Tea Party political agenda. I know. — goethean ॐ 21:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, that baseless guess at an insult has already been proven wrong. See above when I applauded putting in higher level criticism of / material negative on the TPM (rather than gamed-in trivia) North8000 (talk) 22:01, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Take out all of the local trivia? So there goes the whole Early local protest events section. And no-name Ryan Hecker's whole section would need to go; definitely no "top level" stuff in that section from that low-level solo-artist. Zack Christenson? Who the heck is he? The Gadsden flag stuff; a whole paragraph about just one of the many flags waved at protests -- too narrow, and has nothing to do with the national agenda -- gone. The sections on Herman Cain, Michelle Bachmann and Christine O'Donnell -- all national stature figures of relevance to the TP -- should probably have their presence in the article doubled, or perhaps tripled for WEIGHT parity. Overall, it sounds like a loss of a lot of good information to me. I disagree with the proposal. Could you please provide a link to the most persuasive "extensive supporting argument" for your proposal, so that I may review it? Perhaps that will give me a better idea of the reasoning for your proposed deletions. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The tactic here has been to make too difficult / time consuming to fix the article so that nobody does it. In that light I'm not playing the game of dealing with your last few sentences literally as crafted. On the other items, anything where the core of it is about a national figure would not fall under the "local" criteria. North8000 (talk) 21:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The "tactic" here is to understand what you are really proposing. If you can't point me to an argument in support of your proposal, then I think I now understand perfectly. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:18, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Pointing you to anything will not change anything. A year has shown that you flatly want to keep the trivia in. To put it nicely. North8000 (talk) 03:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

You exhibit the same lack of care in reading the past years events as you do in reading reliable sources. I ask you for a reasoned argument behind your proposal, and you balk -- more of the same. Let me know if you ever want to work on article improvement. Until then, I'm not interested in participating in your games, North8000. Xenophrenic (talk) 05:18, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, Xenophrenic, stop going on about all that. The trivia North8000 is talking about is nonsense junk blown out of proportion. The article should better be titled, "What the Left-Wing Wants You to Believe About the Tea Party Movement." It's that obvious. One article from the New Yorker, and suddenly the Koch Industries has some kind of conspiracy going. Some nutty neighbor sabotages a guy's gas grill and suddenly the TPM is all about terrorism directed at Barack Obama (by way of a gas grill in Maryland? Seriously?) It's nonsense junk, and it needs to go. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

We must be talking about two different things, Malke. I don't see any content about a sabotaged gas grill. I don't see any content about a nutty neighbor. I don't see any content about terrorism directed at Barack Obama. Are we even discussing the same Misplaced Pages article? If your outrageous characterizations of what is really in the article is an attempt to argue North8000's position by employing the logical fallacy of appeal to ridicule, well, you failed -- I see through your attempt. The content North & I have been discussing is not attempting to convey anything about gas grills, nutty neighbors or terrorism against Obama. The content we're discussing is about the serious escalation in threats, violence and confrontational rhetoric coming from the TP movement as observed by the public and reported on in countless reliable sources. From the disruption of the town hall meetings (remember those?), to the tangible anger at the health care protests and the countless specific reported incidents from TP "leaders" -- if it were "trivia", it wouldn't be so widely covered in the news report sections of reliable sources. You began your comment with the word "Seriously", yet as I read your post it became evident that you had no intention of discussing the actual content seriously. Please let me know if you change your mind.

Oh, and as for your proposed article name change, in order to meet your description we would have to rewrite the article based on left-wing commentary sources, and it would look nothing like what we have now. What we have now could accurately be retitled as "What the Words and Deeds of the Tea Party has led the Public to Believe About the Tea Party Movement". Xenophrenic (talk) 04:17, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Xenophrenic, I find the combination of your intense disdain for the TPM (as you have communicated many times here) combined with saying that the negative trivia inclusion is "intended to convey" (or similar "to show that" type comments on prior occasions) to be very indicative of the problem that we need to fix here. North8000 (talk) 11:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

North8000, I used to find your expressed personal comments about editors to be caustic and disruptive; I see them now as part of your routine here at Misplaced Pages, and as they are unsubstantiated and unwarranted (Watch this: Hey North, please provide just one diff indicating "intense disdain for the TPM" from me. Golly, you can't? What a surprise! Rinse & repeat -- routine North8000.), a form of trolling that has become sadly humorous through repetition. To the rest of your comment, here is what I said: The content North & I have been discussing is not attempting to convey anything about gas grills, nutty neighbors or terrorism against Obama. If you see that statement as "very indicative of the problem we need to fix here", then I am anxious to hear your description of what that problem is. I made that statement to fix the problem of Malke misrepresenting what the TPm article actually says. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

That is exactly what needs to be fixed here. Xenophrenic, you've got to relax and stand back and let other editors offer their views and suggestions. You react so strongly and so quickly to him that it seems to be keeping you from hearing what North8000 is trying to say. Compromise is the only way to function on Misplaced Pages as you well know. I've seen you do it before, my friend. There's nothing on Misplaced Pages that is that important that it can't be revisited, reexamined. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Malke, as I'm sure you'll agree, compromise between two equally valid but competing ways of doing or saying the same thing is good and productive -- and you are correct, I frequently compromise in such situations. However, compromise between Misplaced Pages policy-compliant editing competing with policy-violating editing is not a good thing. We wouldn't say, "For the sake of compromise, go ahead and violate policy just a little bit this time..." POV-warring over the objection of editors is policy-violating editing. I don't do that kind of compromise, and I really hope that you are not suggesting that I should.

To the rest of your comment: why are you getting so wound up about this, Malke? Just take a deep breath, separate yourself from your emotional involvement, and review the present discussion from a detatched perspective. Here is the current status:

1) North8000 proposed the deletion of content from the article that he considers "negative" and "trivia". He claims, "Per extensive supporting arguments over the last 6-8 months."

2) I disagree with his proposal. Having witnessed the discussions during identical previous attempts to remove negative information, and not recalling "extensive support" for his proposal back then, I asked North, "Could you please provide a link to the most persuasive "extensive supporting argument" for your proposal, so that I may review it? Perhaps that will give me a better idea of the reasoning for your proposed deletions.

3) North has balked at the simple, polite request for his supporting argument. Apparently, it's either "too difficult / time consuming" to justify his proposal or point me to one of these past supporting arguments, or he feels that "Pointing to anything will not change anything". Perhaps by that, he means he expects that his suggestion to remove unflattering information from an article will garner as much support as it has previously, when his "supporting arguments" are reviewed.

I would like to understand "what North8000 is trying to say", to use your words, and I've opened the door to that discussion. But I can't have that discussion solo. And I am 100% with you in an effort to "revisit and reexamine" the article. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Here's how the game goes. The way to prevent fixing it is to make it so time consuming so that people give up and go away. I've spent many many hours giving many reasons why the trivia should go. Xenophrenic, who has contempt for the tea party and does everything based on that, is never going agree to take the trivia out. So, instead of looking at all of the reasoning that I have spent so much time writing out an explaining, they say "point me to a convincing argument". Then, if someone points to one, Xenophrenic will say "that one's not convincing", and if they don't they can say " "xxxxx" wouldn't even do "yyyyy" " and try to get mileage out of that......sort of a win win situation for blockading progress. North8000 (talk) 22:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining how your game goes. I'm not interested in playing. If you ever develop an interest in article improvement instead of POV-pushing, I would be interested in working with you toward that goal. Sincerely, Xenophrenic (talk) 23:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

But what constitutes 'article improvement' in your view? That's the problem North8000 is telling he's having. All he encounters are reverts and circular arguments. You can't claim he's got a POV and pretend you don't. You can't claim all his ideas are POV pushing and your ideas, and resistance to his ideas, is not. POV pushing can also be claims that certain edits can't be changed, etc. And turning everything into a battle is definitely not the way to improve the article. There has to be give and take. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

What constitutes article improvement in my view? You could review that way back in Archive 13 (search for the phrase: from an article-improvement position). Or for a specific example, look at Archive 14 (search for the phrase: If we can rewrite the article so that the content). Here is a cut&paste from Archive 15 of a suggestion I have made more than a dozen times (just search the archives for "laundry list" to see them):

North8000 and I share a dislike for the series of "This TPer said/did this bad thing" example list in the article, but for markedly different reasons. If I understand North's position correctly, he feels the list of examples is a POV attempt to create an "artificial construction", or a false narrative about the movement, implying that the movement is racist, bigoted, intolerant, etc., — and he would like to see much of that content removed outright. I, on the other hand, have watched that list of examples develop as a clumsy and inadequate attempt to convey by example what some studies and polls have asserted: that TPers have distinctively reactionary views on racial issues, and demonstrable correlation between the political positions they espouse and their views on race. I've been pushing for a replacement of that laundry list of embarrassing behavior with a more informative and encyclopedic treatment of the related underlying issues. Xenophrenic (talk) 00:42, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

North8000 keeps "encountering reverts" because he keeps attempting to simply purge content that he dislikes from the article, instead of replacing that content with a more encyclopedic treatment of the information. (There have been no "circular arguments" from me, by the way; perhaps you are confusing me with one of the many other editors that have also reverted the inappropriate attempts at white-washing.) I have never claimed that he has a POV and I don't; I have merely insisted that this article is no place to be pushing it. (It is no coincidence that this is also a Misplaced Pages core policy). Xenophrenic (talk) 10:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

In case that there is anybody who truly hasn't noticed that I'm out to get non-germane trivia out of the article (not to slant it) there is an incident above which is the proof of the pudding. See "Recent addition of anti-TPM material" section above. Someone put in some non-triva, germane anti-TPM material and I applauded it. Xenophrenic, you can't say the same. The clear common theme of practically everything that you have done and said here is to make this article as anti-TPM as you can. In the item that you quoted above, you basically said the YOU know that the TPM is bad on race, and that the article should show that, that the trivia was a clumsy attempt at that righteous cause, and that higher level material supporting the POV would be better. Aside from the obvious Misplaced Pages problems with that, if that higher level material exists, why haven't you put it in? North8000 (talk) 12:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Someone added a single sentence, attributed and properly sourced, and North8000 didn't revert it! Stop the presses; he has saved his soul! Oh...wait, this just in: that's how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work. Yes, North8000, I can say the same. I applaud, and do not revert, properly added material as a matter of routine; something I've never felt the need to hold up and trumpet as some sort of exceptional accomplishment. In the item I quoted above, what I said (note: not "basically said", which is North-speak for 'misrepresented version') was that the content attempted "to convey by example what some studies and polls have asserted: that TPers have distinctively reactionary views on racial issues, and demonstrable correlation between the political positions they espouse and their views on race." Note that I made no mention of what *I* know. Your conspiracy theories that every editor who ads unflattering content to this article must be an anti-TP operative on a righteous crusade to destroy the movement are rather absurd. Get over yourself already, North -- not everyone is as emotionally invested in silly politics. To your question about why I haven't researched scholarly materials on this subject and added them, I'll just quote myself: Been there, done that. I, and other editors, have posted good sources here many times over the past two years. However, I'm as guilty as the next editor of not finding the motivation to do the heavy-lifting required to improve the article. ... how shall I evaluate them to determine which come from "operatives of their political opponents" and which do not? Shall we just assume that any source that says anything critical or unflattering about the movement has obviously come from political opponents? Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 01:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC) Xenophrenic (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, who wants to do hours of real, scholarly work which will simply be rejected out-of-hand because it hurts the feelings of Tea Party adherents? — goethean ॐ 13:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Goethean I don't know whether your stated misreading of my intentions is accidental or on purpose, but my intention is only to have a quality article, not to have it biased. As indication of my credentials regarding this, when it has jeopardized article quality and npov, I have locked horns with people who want to push MY POV at the article to prevent them from doing so. A few bigger examples of that were at the Libertarianism article several times over the last month and the Intelligent design article about a month ago. Further proof/credentials regarding this is my post about 1 inch up from this one. So, if you sincerely, mean what you said, we're on the same page. If not, not. North8000 (talk) 16:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I do believe that you sincerely want to improve the article, just as I do. But your beliefs and actions are a product of your belief system and world-view, as are mine. And as has been demonstrated again and again, our views on the Tea Party are in different universes. I think (with good reason, I believe) that the Tea Party was the result of astroturfing dollars contributed by the Kochs and other corporate billionaires, which played on people's fears, xenophobia, racism, and other regressive impulses like selfishness and tribalism. You believe, I gather, that it is an authentic expression of grass-roots concern about the national deficit, government spending, perhaps about the Obama administration's encroachment on freedoms, and other high-minded ideology. Yours is broadly similar to the view from inside the Tea Party, while mine is a view (although not the only one) from outside the Tea Party. Both of us are probably too close to the subject to write about it fairly. Me, because I can't stomach the sympathetic view (which I would characterize as gullible, facile, inaccurate and a tool of corporate/oligarchic powers) and the converse is (I imagine) true of you. In any case, it is probably true that any text which I produce, no matter how well-sourced, would be rejected by your 'side' as undue, non-neutral, biased, etc. And the converse is true of any text that you produce (assuming that it generally lines up with my summary of your beliefs).

That said, I do believe that my view is closer to what is acceptable on Misplaced Pages, and the recent conversation above demonstrates that. Conservatives think of the NYT as a left-wing rag, and just as biased as Rush Limbaugh. Apart from the fact that this is nonsense, more importantly, it completely inappropriate to Misplaced Pages, which is not a outlet for conservative/corporate talking points, and which needs to use the highest standard for reliable sources, a standard which the NYT passes, and which the above-linked list of approved conservative sources does not. This point is not up for debate, and needs to be discussed at WP:RS, if at all. — goethean ॐ 16:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Your view of the NYT only shows your bias is so strong that you are completely unaware that it even exists. Journalism in general is heavily populated by liberals, this is a fact. The NYT is read predominantly by liberals and feeds to their beliefs. It is not to say it is not a reliable source, just that it is very liberally biased. While it is inappropriate for WP to be an outlet for conservative talking points, it is eqaully inappropriate for WP to an outlet for liberal talking points. Only when you on the left argee to the second part will WP be an unbiased source of information. Example of Liberal bias for the day. Rush does his bit and the world blows up. Mike Malloy says that "God" killed those killed by the tornadoes last week, semaring them into greasy little spots on the concrete, and nary a word is spoked about it. Arzel (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Your attempts at media criticism are off-topic and not of interest. — goethean ॐ 18:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Mike who? Hey, my neighbor (a flaming liberal if I ever saw one) once remarked that one out of every three registered Republicans is a closeted, conflicted homosexual ... and now that I think back on that, I realize not a single word was printed about my neighbor's remark in the liberal press! Definitely proof that Arzel is on to something here. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit conflict, responding only to Geothean's previous post. The NYT thing is a sidebar. On to the main stuff...well, after hearing all of that, if we have any fundamental difference it's that for your analysis you are treating the TPM as an entity. I, quite the opposite view it as a phenomena, mood, theme, agenda and catchphrase, maybe a bunch a disparate groups and organizations. And the agenda is only what is in common to all followers. (lower taxes, smaller government). Every possible thing that you are talking about about probably exists. (people trying to help launch it or make it bigger, people with other agendas (e.g. social conservatives, Republican party, people seeking to further their non-TPM-agenda goals/views, trying to co-opt it, make it their own, utilize it etc.). You seeing it as an entity leads to then considering it valid/useful to characterize that entity by all of these other things. Me seeing it as (for this sentence , for simplicity call it just) and agenda makes me say that the idea of such characterization is not useful or valid. But either way, this article goes beyond that, it incorporates trivia which editors have selected to try to build the case of that characterization. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I, quite the opposite view it as a phenomena, mood, theme, agenda and catchphrase, maybe a bunch a disparate groups and organizations.

Do you have a source for this? — goethean ॐ 18:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

But either way, this article goes beyond that, it incorporates trivia which editors have selected to try to build the case of that characterization.

It incorporates episodes which were highlighted by the media. The state of the media coverage of the TPM is not the fault of Misplaced Pages editors. — goethean ॐ 18:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

"a phenomena, mood, theme, agenda and catchphrase, maybe a bunch a disparate groups and organizations" ... North, that's basically an informal definition of a "movement". But something you said made me recall an article I read that began with the sentence, "The 'Tea Party' is less a classic political movement than a frustrated state of mind..." I remember that article had a lot of information and analysis based on recorded facts, an interesting sidebar and plausible summaries; I would like your (both of you) opinions about it's quality as a citable source. It's located here Xenophrenic (talk) 20:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

So far I just did a fast read but that looks like an excellent article. North8000 (talk) 21:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It does look good. I'm talking for writing stuff that summarizes it, not pulling out selected bits. North8000 (talk) 22:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking that an overview or analysis that draws heavily from that source might make a good new subsection and of trying to build that. Rather than build it in a sandbox and drop it in I'm thinking of building it slowly in place. Any thoughts? 23:38, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

PS: not to delay our effort to get the trivia out, but to work in paralell with that. North8000 (talk) 23:38, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I can certainly see why you like the article. It takes everything at face value without asking any questions. It presents the narrative that Tea Party funders would like to project --- of a completely organic, grass-roots movement inspired solely in response to Obama's alleged overreach. The article is dishonest in my opinion.

The implication of the article is that, one year after Obama won the election, tens of millions of Americans spontaneously decided that he was a socialist. The only cause mentioned in the article is Obama's liberal economic policies. No mention is made of the tens of millions of dollars contributed by conservative billionaires and spent by Americans For Prosperity and FreedomWorks, or of the constant promotion of the Tea Party Movement by FOXNEWS. — goethean ॐ 18:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Certainly there are a lot of people either promoting it, supporting it trying to use or co-opt it, just as with most movements. North8000 (talk) 20:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

North8000 expressed a sentiment that I think has traction: " ... the agenda is only what is in common to all followers. (lower taxes, smaller government) ... " This strikes a chord with me. Surely it is reasonable to differentiate between what TPM speakers at rallies say as opposed to what the home-made signs of individual spectators declare or insinuate? It would (for example) be unfair to associate Senator Harry Reid with some of the signs that have been held up at his rallies, as it would be to associate the individual actions of SEIU members with President Obama. TreacherousWays (talk) 19:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

How is it determined what is common to all followers? If public opinion polls are used, then I think that anti-abortion sentiment is just as prevalent as concern about deficits, etc. Also, your Harry Reid analogy is flawed, because we are describing a movement, not a figurehead. If the article was about the Harry Reid Movement, then presumably homemade signs would be fair game. — goethean ॐ 19:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

OK, common to all followers is probably incorrect. But the logic is (I think) sound. What the speakers say on stage at rallies can be reasonably assumed to be the message of the movement. The same cannot be said about the messages printed on signs by spectators, no? All we can deduce from that is the belief of the individual carrying the sign. TreacherousWays (talk) 20:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the TPM more as an agenda than an entity, the answers to the questions become simple. Whatever the group is demanding/advocating is the agenda. North8000 (talk) 20:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the Reid analogy was flawed. A better analogy would be if there is a a pro-gay marriage movement, and a pro-gay marriage parade, and gay-marriage supporter in the crowd has a pro-pedophilia sign. The content of that sign is not what the movement is about, it is simply not in their agenda. Even if a poll showed that 60% of pro-gay-marriage people where in favor of pedophilia, the movement is defined by it's agenda which does not include pedophilia. North8000 (talk) 20:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be correct to say (in this hypothetical situation) that advocating pedophilia is not part of their agenda, in the same way that I think everyone here would agree that it's not part of the agenda of the TPM to advocate racism. However, if there was a wikipedia article on the scenario you've presented, and the pedophilia aspect had received significant media attention through public opinion polls, statements from individuals associated with the movement's leadership, and incidents that had happened at rallies (like signs promoting pedophilia), I think we'd see that covered in such a hypothetical article as well. AzureCitizen (talk) 20:45, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you're headed towards our main dispute there. Rather than go there, at the moment I was more making the observation that things make a lot more sense and lots of complicated questions get simple if one treats it as an agenda rather than as an entity. North8000 (talk) 22:02, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

That's because treating it as an agenda only gives the view from inside the Tea Party. Misplaced Pages needs to give a neutral view, not one strictly from within the organization. Would you want the article on pedophilia to only describe pedophilia from the perspective of a pedophile? You are advocating that we use an analogous approach here. — goethean ॐ 22:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't reaching that far. I guess what it boils down to is saying to cover the Tear Party movement as a movement rather than as an entity. This is easy to forget/ get mixed up on because the most commonly used label ("Tea Party") makes it sound like an entity rather than a movement. North8000 (talk) 22:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

i hear the tea party often in conversation and media, not once have i ever heard "the tea party movement". I suggest we remove the term "movement".

...and another lazy, inscrutable non-sequitor by the class clown caps off another discussion. — goethean ॐ 05:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

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