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The Signpost: 19 December 2011

• News and notes: Anti-piracy act has Wikimedians on the defensive, WMF annual report released, and Indic language dynamics

• In the news: To save the wiki: strike first, then makeover?

• Discussion report: Polls, templates, and other December discussions

• WikiProject report: A dalliance with the dismal scientists of WikiProject Economics

• Featured content: Panoramas with Farwestern and a good week for featured content

• Arbitration report: The community elects eight arbitrators

• Technology report: Visual editor demo launched, hailed as "most important change to our user experience ... ever"; but elsewhere over-hasty deployments criticised

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 03:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Gio

But in your first post, you said, "a site like MLB.com". MLB.com said the trade was official. Sorry for the harshness, if any, but I think the trade is official.Gibberish77 (talk) 00:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

From the article, "The deal is official pending a physical." It's almost there, but not 100% done.--Giants27(T|C) 00:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

NFL player info box

hi i have a little question about the nfl player info box. are there any specific id for each player for the link to their stat on nfl official website "|nfl={{{playerid}}} i'm try to figure out each player's id. does it have to begin with the first 3 letter of each last name and followed with 6 numbers? where can i get this "6 numbers"? Daonguyen95 (talk) 00:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

On the article Doug Baldwin, you had the right info there (his name and those numbers after it), but a few months back, NFL.com changed all their links to the ones they have now (the dougbaldwin/2530747 kind). However, to avoid re-doing all the old ones which still work (the kind you referenced where it would something like BAL2530747, rather than what it is now), we created a new field which can work along with the nfl= field. The new field is nflnew=. If you feel like it, you can change it to that one whenever you see it, but personally, it probably won't be worth it since the nfl= one works fine with the old way. However, for articles with non-functioning links or ones that don't yet have one, you need to use the nflnew= field rather than the nfl= field. Hope that helps!--Giants27(T|C) 00:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! if convenient, i would like to know more about the old way with that id thing--Daonguyen95 (talk) 01:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure. Basically, an example is Captain Munnerlyn's link. The code looks like |nfl=MUN472912, compared to the one I showed you for Baldwin. I'm not sure why they switched it, but they did. You can also see by clicking on the link on Munnerlyn's page that the old one still works. It could always be moved over, but for now, since it works, like I said, it wouldn't make sense to do so. However, if you click it, the link reverts to the new one on the the NFL site.--Giants27(T|C) 02:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

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The Signpost: 26 December 2011

• Opinion essay: Openness versus quality: why we're doing it wrong, and how to fix it

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• News and notes: Fundraiser passes 2010 watermark, brief news

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• Featured content: Going through the roster with Killervogel5 and a plethora of featured content

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 03:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Hideki Okajima

You changed the New York Yankees roster template about a second before I was about to finish my edit. I'm always beat by you or Eagles247 when I edit, for some reason. RevanFan (talk) 16:24, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

A small thing, but please don't write that "X is a...member of the X of Major League Baseball" when in reality they've just signed a minor league contract. The likelihood of a player like Okajima or any minor league free agent of making an opening roster is slim and it is just plainly inaccurate to say a minor league deal is the same as a guaranteed contract in MLB--TM 16:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

It is accurate because he is a member of the Yankees. Not sure what else it could say.--Giants27(T|C) 16:41, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

But he isn't a member of the Yankees anymore than any other minor leaguer. I change these to "X is a Y professional baseball pitcher with Z organization. I'd appreciate it if you saved me the work did something similar.--TM 18:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If you're going to do that, it should be "X is a Y professional baseball pitcher with the Z organization". For most teams, just saying with won't work grammatically.--Giants27(T|C) 18:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

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2012 WikiCup

Hi! As you've previously expressed interest in the competition, I'm just letting you know that the 2012 WikiCup is due to start in less than 24 hours. Signups are open, and will remain so for a few weeks after the beginning of the competition. The competition itself will follow basically the same format as last year, with a few small tweaks to point costs to reflect the opinions of the community. If you're interested in taking part, you're more than welcome, and if you know anyone who might be, please let them know too- the more the merrier! To join, simply add your name to Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/2012 signups, and we will be in touch. Please feel free to direct any questions to me, or leave a note on the WikiCup talk page. Thanks! You are receiving this note as you are listed on Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. Please feel free to add or remove yourself. J Milburn (talk) 01:45, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Julyan Stone

On 31 December 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Julyan Stone, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that current Denver Nuggets basketball player Julyan Stone holds both the University of Texas-El Paso and Conference USA record for most assists in a career with 714? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Julyan Stone.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 05:02, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Florida Gators football helmet.gif listed for deletion

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Knicks task force

NYCRuss ☎ 20:25, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 02 January 2012

• Interview: The Gardner interview

• News and notes: Things bubbling along as Wikimedians enjoy their holidays

• WikiProject report: Where are they now? Part III

• Featured content: Ghosts of featured content past, present, and future

• Arbitration report: New case accepted, four open cases, terms begin for new arbitrators

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

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DYK for Carldell Johnson

On 5 January 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Carldell Johnson, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that University of Alabama-Birmingham basketball player Carldell Johnson led all Division I college basketball players in assist–to–turnover ratio as a sophomore? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Carldell Johnson.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Casliber (talk · contribs) 16:01, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

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The Signpost: 09 January 2012

• Technological roadmap: 2011's technological achievements in review, and what 2012 may hold

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Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot

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Articles for Creation Appeal

Articles for Creation urgently needs your help! Articles for Creation is desperately short of reviewers! We are looking for urgent help, from experienced editors, in reviewing submissions in the pending submissions queue. Currently the are 1748 submissions waiting to be reviewed. Do you have what it takes? Are you familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines? Do you know what Misplaced Pages is and is not? Do you have a working knowledge of the Manual of Style, particularly article naming conventions? Are you autoconfirmed? Can you review submissions based on their individual merits? If the answer to these questions is yes, then please read the reviewing instructions and donate a little of your time to helping tackle the backlog.

Francis Beltrán

I don't know about you (although I do know you are a respected author), but I don't think it's that clear as to Beltran's earning of an invitation. On the Orioles template? I don't know if this is considered a reliable source, and you may have easily have found something posted later today but NBC Sports posted something earlier today, saying "It's not clear if he's been given an invite to spring training." http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/46005215 - the link for the article. Sorry for your troubles. Gibberish77 (talk) 02:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, you're right. I misread the update on Rotoworld. My apologies,--Giants27(T|C) 02:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Acknowledgement...right here (it feels weird not to say anything) Gibberish77 (talk) 02:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 January 2012

• Special report: English Misplaced Pages to go dark on January 18

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 06:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Mychel Thompson

On 20 January 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Mychel Thompson, which you created or substantially expanded. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Mychel Thompson.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Allen3  00:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 23 January 2012

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• Featured content: Interview with Muhammad Mahdi Karim and the best of the week

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 18:15, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

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The Signpost: 30 January 2012

• News and notes: Update on Global Development, Misplaced Pages Day NYC is a success, JFK audio on Commons

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 03:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiCup 2012 January newsletter

WikiCup 2012 is off to a flying start. At the time of writing, we have 112 contestants; comparable to last year, but slightly fewer than 2010. Signups will remain open for another week, after which time they will be closed for this year. Our currrent far-away leader is Grapple X (submissions), due mostly to his work on a slew of good articles about The X-Files; there remain many such articles waiting to be reviewed at good article candidates. Second place is currently held by Ruby2010 (submissions), whose points come mostly from good articles about television episodes, although good article reviews, did you knows and an article about a baroness round out the score. In third place is Jivesh boodhun (submissions), who has scored 200 points for his work on a single featured article, as well as points for work on others, mostly in the area of pop music. In all, nine users have 100 or more points. However, at the other end of the scale, there are still dozens of participants who are yet to score. Please remember to update your submission pages promptly!

The 64 highest scoring participants will advance to round 2 in a month's time. There, they will be split into eight random groups of eight. The score needed to reach the next round is not at all clear; last year, 8 points guaranteed a place. The year before, 20.

A few participants and their work warrant a mention for achieving "firsts" in this competition.

• 12george1 (submissions) was the first to score, with his good article review of Illinois v. McArthur.
• 12george1 (submissions) was also the first to score points for an article, thanks to his work on Hurricane Debby (1982)- now a good article. Tropical storms have featured heavily in the Cup, and good articles currently have a relatively fast turnaround time for reviews.
• Sp33dyphil (submissions) was the first to score points for a did you know, with Russian submarine K-114 Tula. Military history is another subject which has seen a lot of Cup activity.
• Sp33dyphil (submissions) is also the first person to successfully claim bonus points. Terminator 2: Judgment Day is now a good article, and was eligible for bonus points because the subject was covered on more than 20 other Wikipedias at the start of the competition. It is fantastic to see bonus points being claimed so early!
• Speciate (submissions) was the first to score points for an In the News entry, with Paedophryne amauensis. The lead image from the article was also used on the main page for a time, and it's certainly eye-catching!
• Jivesh boodhun (submissions) was the first to score points for a featured article, and is, at the moment, the only competitor to claim for one. The article, "Halo" (Beyoncé Knowles song), was also worth double points because of its wide coverage. While this is an article that Jivesh and others have worked on for some time, it is undeniable that he has put considerable work into it this year, pushing it over the edge.

We are yet to see any featured lists, featured topics or good topics, but this is unsurprising; firstly, the nomination processes with each of these can take some time, and, secondly, it can take a considerable amount of time to work content to this level. In a similar vein, we have seen only one featured article. The requirement that content must have been worked on this year to be eligible means that we did not expect to see these at the start of the competition. No points have been claimed for featured portals or pictures, but these are not content types which are often claimed; the former has never made a big impact on the WikiCup, while the latter has not done so since 2009's competition.

A quick rules clarification before the regular notices: If you are concerned that another user is claiming points inappropriately, please contact a judge to take a look at the article. Competitors policing one another can create a bad atmosphere, and may lead to inconsistencies and mistakes. Rest assured that we, the judges, are making an effort to check submissions, but it is possible that we will miss something. On a loosely related note: If you are concerned that your nomination, be it at good article candidates, a featured process or anywhere else, will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Reviews. However, please remember to continue to offer reviews at GAC, FAC and all the other pages that require them to prevent any backlogs which could otherwise be caused by the Cup. As ever, questions are welcome on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiCup and the judges are reachable on their talk pages, or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start receiving or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn and The ed17 00:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 06 February 2012

• News and notes: The Foundation visits Tunisia, analyzes donors

• In the news: Leading scholar hails Misplaced Pages, historians urged to contribute while PR pros remain shunned

• Discussion report: Discussion swarms around Templates for deletion and returning editors of colourful pasts

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• Featured content: Talking architecture with MrPanyGoff

• Arbitration report: Four open cases, final decision in Muhammad images, Betacommand 3 near closure

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Could you help me out here

This guy was kind of rude to me and I need help convincing him that ESPN can be trusted for baseball rosters. RevanFan (talk) 18:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I hate to break it to you, but MLB.com is king for rosters. You may be getting hell from one guy here, but you'd get hell from most MLB project regulars as well. That project relies on one site for everything and that isn't ESPN. Cheers,--Giants27(T|C) 22:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I was remembering that the LoHud Yankees blog was used last year for numbers when they made a post on it, so I though that other sites were also acceptable. I'll leave the template the way it is, but I still would love to see an apology from him because of his nasty threat (at least it came of as nasty and rude to me.) RevanFan (talk) 22:47, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

You may be interested...

...in this. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

How can someone actually suggest this...--Giants27(T|C) 22:01, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

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WikiCup 2012 February newsletter

Round 1 is already over! The 64 highest scorers have progressed to round 2. Our highest scorer was Grapple X (submissions), again thanks mostly to a swathe of good articles on The X-Files. In second place was Tigerboy1966 (submissions), thanks an impressive list of did you knows about racehorses. Both scored over 400 points. Following behind with over 300 points were Ruby2010 (submissions), Cwmhiraeth (submissions), Miyagawa (submissions) and Casliber (submissions). February also saw the competition's first featured list: List of colleges and universities in North Dakota, from Ruby2010 (submissions). At the other end of the scale, 11 points was enough to secure a place in this round, and some contestants with 10 points made it into the round on a tiebreaker. This is higher than the 8 points that were needed last year, but lower than the 20 points required the year before. The number of points required to progress to round 3 will be significantly higher.

The remaining contestants have been split into 8 pools of 8, named A through H. Round two will finish in two months time on 28 April, when the two highest scorers in each pool, as well as the next 16 highest scorers, will progress to round 3. The pools were entirely random, so while some pools may end up being more competitive than others, this is by chance rather than design.

The judges would like to point out two quick rules reminders. First, any content promoted during the interim period (that is, on or after 27 February) is eligible for points in round 2. Second, any content worked on significantly this year is eligible for points if promoted in this round. On a related note, if you are concerned that your nomination, be it at good article candidates, a featured process or anywhere else, will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Reviews. However, please remember to continue to offer reviews at GAC, FAC and all the other pages that require them to prevent any backlogs which would otherwise be caused by the Cup. As ever, questions are welcome on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiCup and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start receiving or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn (talk • email) and The ed17 (talk • email) 23:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

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What exactlly is "right?"

G27, your last edit summary to the Cooper Carlisle article stated: "look at my edit before undoing; everything I did was right." Well, not exactly:

• Per MOS:ABBR, second section, second paragraph: "Unless specified in one of the two tables below, an acronym or initialism should be written out in full the first time it is used on a page, followed by the abbreviation in brackets (e.g. Millennium Development Goals (MDGs))." An example of this would be the first use of "National Football League (NFL)," with the initialism "NFL" defined in a parenthetical following the full expression "National Football League."

Your edit did not do this.

• Per first paragraph of MOS:CAPS: "Misplaced Pages avoids unnecessary capitalization. Most capitalization is for proper names or for acronyms and initialisms. Misplaced Pages relies on sources to determine what is a proper name; words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in sources are treated as proper names and capitalized in Misplaced Pages." For pertinent examples from American football, please note that "free agent," "nose tackle," and "offensive tackle" and similar two-word football terms are not proper nouns. That means when they appear in an infobox, only the first word of the phrase is properly capitalized, in the same manner as capitalization of section headings per MOS:HEADINGS.

Yankees10's edit included the improperly capitalized "Free Agent" in the team parameter of the infobox.

• Per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Bulleted and numbered lists, "When the elements are sentence fragments, the list is typically introduced by a lead fragment ending with a colon. When these elements are titles of works, they retain the original capitalization of the titles. Other elements are formatted consistently in either sentence case or lower case. Each element should end with a semicolon, with a period instead for the last element. Alternatively (especially when the elements are short), no final punctuation is used at all."

Again, Yankees10's edit included the improperly capitalized "Free Agent" for the Team parameter in the infobox.

• Per second sentence of MOS:HEADINGS: "Spaces between the equal signs and the heading text are optional, and will not affect the way the heading is displayed." Please note that "optional" means "permitted."

Your edit removed the expressly permitted spaces as being "right."

• Per fourth sentence of MOS:HEADINGS: "Include one blank line above the heading, and optionally one blank line below it, for readability in the edit window. (Only two or more consecutive blank lines will add more white space in the public appearance of the page.)" Again, please note that "optional" means "permitted."

Your edit removed the expressly permitted spaces (hard returns) after the section headers as being "right."

• Per MOS:LEAD, "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article. That last sentence means if any fact is not recited in the main body text, it should not appear in the lead section, i.e., if a football player's draft status is not explained in the main body text, it should not be recited in the lead.

Your edit attempts to enforce the so-called "standardized" WP:NFL and is misguided. A player's notability is virtually never based on the fact that he was drafted in the fourth round of the NFL Draft. Try to explain why he is notable or why his fourth-round status is significant in a 12-season career; you can't.

• Per WP:OPENPARA, the first section of MOS:BIO, "The opening paragraph should have:

1. "Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility));
2. "Dates of birth and death, if known (see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death);
3. "Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);
   1. "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.
   2. "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.
4. "The notable actions or roles the person played;
5. "Why the person is significant."

Your edit attempts to enforce the so-called "standardized" WP:NFL and is misguided. Again, a professional football player is virtually never notable because he was drafted in the fourth round of the NFL Draft, nor is such fact significant in the context of a long NFL career. There may be a justification for including the draft history of first-rounders and very late-rounders; there is none for including the draft history of third, fourth and fifth-rounders, etc. Reciting the fact that Tom Brady was a sixth-round pick is notable because it provides significant background to his hugely successful pro career. Reciting that Cooper Carlisle, a 12-year NFL veteran, was a fourth-round pick is meaningless and has virtually no significance to his overall career. It's trivia that has nothing to do with Carlisle's notability and little other significance to his career, and random trivia has no place in the lead section. When a player's draft history is mentioned in the lead, and never explained in the main body text, it also contravenes the explicit requirements of MOS:LEAD.

Moreover, the fact that a professional football player was an All-American or won a major national award while he was in college is usually far more significant to the player's career history and a much greater contributor to the player's Misplaced Pages notability than the fact that he was a middle-round NFL Draft choice. NFL players are presumed notable, but many NFL players are equally notable or even more notable for their college careers (e.g. Danny Wuerffel, Ricky Williams, Ron Dayne, Matt Leinart, Troy Smith).

• Per the second paragraph of WP:PARAGRAPH, "One-sentence paragraphs are unusually emphatic, and should be used sparingly. Articles should rarely, if ever, consist solely of such paragraphs."

Your edit attempts to enforce the so-called "standardized" WP:NFL, which often includes such oddly placed and awkward one-sentence paragraphs, are misplaced.

• Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." That means that the opinion of two or three WP:NFL regulars does not trump the MOS or other Misplaced Pages-wide policies.

No matter how many times Yankees10 or any other editor reverts edits that were made consistent with MOS and Misplaced Pages-wide policies, pursuant to the supposed consensus of him and one or two other old-time NFL editors, the "way we have always done things" and local consensus do not trump the MOS.

I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm being a know-it-all (yes, I know I'm being a pain in the ass). But a lot of us have worked too darn hard to upgrade the content and formatting of college football player articles to have some goofy localized "we've always done it this way" consensus of two or three long-time WP:NFL editors get in the way of Misplaced Pages-wide consensus and MOS formatting.

BTW, there's an RfC being prepared to address the semi-illiterate "standardized" WP:NFL lead—and do away with it. Major points to be addressed will include those mentioned above, as well as the presumption that a lead section that is arranged chronologically is generally easier to follow and therefore generally better. The major thrust of the RfC will be what facts of the player's career should be included in the lead section of NFL player biographies, not whether another so-called "standardized" lead should be adopted by WP:NFL. Needless conformity is the hobgoblin of small minds, and it often gets in the way of good writing. The so-called standardized NFL lead is a perfect example—especially when it is expressly contradicted by the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style on multiple points.

Thanks for listening to (reading) my vent. I hope you will read and consider the cited MOS sections. I've taken the time to explain these points, at some length, because Eagles247 and others seem to think a lot of you as a productive editor. I've practically given up on two or three other unnamed NFL editors who persist in flouting Misplaced Pages-wide formatting and style points, effectively claiming that some unwritten local "consensus" trumps project-wide formatting and style. I'm hoping you will actually read the MOS sections cited above, think about them, and eventually decide to help edit and improve college and NFL football player bios in a manner consistent with the MOS. I've reverted the Cooper Carlisle article to its last stable version, but I have incorporated the recent updates regarding his free agency status, as well as the link to "guard" (not "offensive guard," as we have discussed previously). I'm done venting for the evening. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:29, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I was not referring to the headers. I was referring to the use of "active" in the infobox and your removal of a category, both of which were right. As for the lead, your lead is not good to me or anybody else in the project. You drag on in it and as such, I've edited it again. Cheers,--Giants27(T|C) 00:43, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, are you seriously going to go all hardcore over some spacing? It's annoying as hell from an editing perspective, but if you want it in the articles you apparently think you own, go for it.--Giants27(T|C) 00:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

For your benefit, I'll list what was wrong with your introduction.

• "American professional football player who has been a guard and offensive tackle in the National Football League (NFL) for twelve seasons." Have fun updating this one every season he plays. Also, offensive tackle as a link in and of itself if fine. You also unnecessarily dragged on that he played American football, even though it's completely unnecessary to mention his nationality in the lead, as has been decided by consensus.
• "He is currently an unrestricted free agent." See every other project. You can just say free agent in the first sentence. Waiting until the end is asinine.

Otherwise, I pretty much just re-worded yours to fix those issues.--Giants27(T|C) 00:52, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh and I forgot to reply as to why his draft status is important. It's important because it's how his career began. I have no clue how you don't see/understand that.--Giants27(T|C) 00:54, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I'm still laughing about the "University of Iowa"; if that were the case, we would not be having this conversation. Now, that we're talking, I readily concede the "unrestricted free agent" point. Brain fart on my part. Next.

Per WP:LEAD, the first sentence of the lead should be a statement of why the person is notable. Cooper Carlisle is not notable because he is a "free agent"; he's notable because he's been a starting offensive lineman in the NFL for most of the last 12 years. The rest of the lede should summarize the major point of the article, preferably in chronological order. Sticking the player's college history at the end is not chronological and is confusing to anyone who is unfamiliar with American college and professional football. Misplaced Pages is not written for CFB and NFL fanboys; it is written for a general audience. A housewife from California or someone from Australia should be able to read one of our NFL player bios and understand most of it without reference to random wiki links. Which is why we are supposed to introduce acronyms and initialisms like "NFL," and avoid using American sports jargon like QB, WR, TD, etc. in text.

BTW, I DO update the articles of former Gators every season, and I am tracking all of the currently active Gators in the NFL, so I don't fear the work involved of updating 1,500 or so NFL actives. I'm only tracking and updating two dozen Gators; Carlisle's article will either be updated when he resigns with the Raiders or another team, or the 12-season career summary will stand until we can say that he has retired. In this case, Carlisle is notable because he has played 12 seasons in the NFL, not because he is a free agent. Again, the first sentence is supposed to be a statement of the person's notability, and free agency has virtually nothing to do with the player's notability—it's just a brief, passing transition in the player's career. Remember, Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTNEWS.

Finally, the biggest problem I have with the "standardized" lead, or even your better version of it in this case, is that it's not chronological. In the first sentence, the lead should summarize the reasons for the person's notability ("American professional football player"). The next chronological element is college career history (university, major awards). The next element in time is the draft history, if it contributes to the player's notability or was significant to the player's overall career history. Finally, the lead should include a summary of the NFL teams for which he played, followed by a quick summary of the highlights of NFL awards and honors. For significantly longer articles of players like Emmitt Smith, these elements may be expanded into a multi-paragraph lead section; Cooper Carlisle is a hometown hero, but his relatively brief article does not rate a multi-paragraph lead.

As for the statement of draft history in the lead, the question is whether it contributes to the particular player's notability, or is otherwise a significant career milestone in the context of the particular player's overall career. If not, it's trivia that doesn't belong in the lead. The fact that Carlisle started his NFL career as a fourth-rounder is neither a reason for his notability, nor a career milestone. Moreover, it's stated in the infobox six inches to the right, and described in detail in the professional career section of the main body text. In the case of Carlisle, that's about right.

All of that having been said, if you will put your improved version of the lead in chronological order (free agency being the last event), I can live with it for the time being . . . I expect Carlisle will either sign with an NFL team or announce his retirement in the next few days, and the article lead will be restored to something closer to what it looked like yesterday. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Giants27, I waited two days for a response to my comments immediately above as a temporary compromise. Following a clear aqnd concise statement of notability in the first sentence of the lead, I have now arranged it chronologically: (1) college career; (2) draft history; (3) pro career history; and (4) current free agent status. As I said above, the first sentence should be a statement of the person's notability; his transitory status as a free agent has nothing to do with his notability. He's notable because he's a professional football player. With some consideration, I hope you will see the correctness of that per WP:LEAD. Regards. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I do hope that you know you're going against age-old consensus amongst every sports project by not stating his current playing status in the first sentence. But, like Yankees10, I'm giving up. I'll let you handle all the Florida Gator player articles since you don't want to listen to anybody who disagrees with you on it. Cheers,Giants27(T|C) 15:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

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