Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:32, 18 March 2012

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This page is for reporting possible breaches of the external links guideline. Post questions here regarding whether particular external links are appropriate or compliant with Misplaced Pages's guidelines for external links. Provide links to the relevant article(s), talk page(s), and external links(s) that are being discussed. Questions about prominent websites like YouTube, IMDb, Twitter, or Find a Grave might be addressed with information from this guide. Sections older than 10 days archived by MiszaBot. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcuts WP:ELN WP:EL/N If you mention specific editors, you must notify them. You may use {{subst:ELN-notice}} to do so.
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Confusion regarding some links

I added an external link from a copyright website to different articles, basically they were from the same website, but totally in context with the articles, but a senior Wikipedian removed them. I don't say that he is wrong but I am a bit confused. He guided me to the Misplaced Pages:External links page and I read it. I have noticed a point, following which I can add the links under the external links heading in all the articles. I just wanted any senior editor to help me out in this regard and guide me. Just wanted a neutral opinion of some one who is an expert.
The point that I am referring to is Point # 3What can normally be linked. They are a lot of articles (May be 10 I guess) so I am going to mention a few of them.

• Marathon asset management
• Paul Tudor Jones
• John W. Rogers, Jr.
• Mohnish Pabrai
  

Thanks --Inlandmamba (talk) 06:43, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

To me this looks like a misunderstanding of how to address copyrighted images. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the external links were added to address the concerns that images were under copyright.

Misunderstanding aside, most of the links were unrelated to the article topic itself. The links added to biographical articles of individuals were to profiles on the companies associated with the individuals, rather than articles on the individuals themselves. The links added to articles about corporations should be evaluated against WP:RS criteria, and if acceptable, added to the article talk pages as potential sources for verification or expansion. --Ronz (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

If this is the case then the links should have been only deleted from the pages of the individuals and not from the companies.--Inlandmamba (talk) 05:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. So you seem to be adding links like http://www.hedgefundletters.com/category/marathon-asset-management/ to articles like Marathon Asset Management, along with images like File:Bruce Richards, Marathon Asset Management.jpg. Misplaced Pages needs the URL—but it needs it only on the File page, not in the article, and never under the ==External links== heading. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, but it is not for any advertisement and I have placed a copyrighted source. I agree with User:Ronz that caricatures don't belong in an encyclopedia, but can't these links be used as references? And as far as the external links heading is concerned The point that I am referring to is Point # 3What can normally be linked. Isn't it supporting what I am saying. You can correct me if I am wrong in understanding the meaning. I'll really appreciate that.
Thanks--Inlandmamba (talk) 07:36, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Let's not try to justify bad links after the fact. We've established they were added in an attempt to address copyright problems with images. Such links simply don't belong.

If someone wants to use some of the links as sources, it would be best to check at WP:RSN. I'd say don't use them since the letters might be confused as secondary sources rather than primary and self-published. (From a brief skim, it looks like the site collects and republishes letters from hedge fund organizations, and includes their own profile of each organization.) --Ronz (talk) 21:08, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Inlandmamba, ELYES #3 simply doesn't apply. There are two reasons for this:

1. Nothing in the entire guideline applies to material that has been added to the article—say, an image placed in the article.
2. ELYES #3 specifically says it applies to "material that...cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues". You can add these image into the Misplaced Pages article—you arranged permission—so ELYES doesn't apply. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

So User:WhatamIdoing, that means that I can add the images to the articles but not the links? Because I have taken permission from the copyright holder and the OTRS volunteer has allowed me to use them. And if I want to add the links I would have to send a permission to Misplaced Pages?
--Inlandmamba (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

More precisely, the Misplaced Pages:External links guideline does not prohibit you from adding either the images or the links as part of the article content (that is, not as part of the ==External links== list). Of course, the EL guideline never prohibits any image or link or other type of article content. It only prohibits (or allows) things that belong under the ==External links== heading.

Whether you can add the images and/or the links as part of the regular article content (not part of the ==External links==) is a question for another page. Material added to the regular article content must comply with all of the sourcing and content policies, as well as having general support ("WP:Consensus") from the editors at that particular article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology

Could I ask for some input on the Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology as an EL at sexology? It appears to have some useful material in a wide range of languages.

Recently an EL to sexual-medicine.org was added, apparently by its President. I commented on the article's talk page, asking for other's thoughts, but was leaning toward removing it eventually. Another editor responded by removing all of the ELs except for sexual-medicine.org (and adding DMOZ). Granted, many of the other ELs were long dead or non-English, but the one page I questioned is the only one still there. This seems strange. Should sexual-medicine.org be kept and www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/index.html removed? BitterGrey (talk) 05:10, 4 March 2012‎ (UTC)

The DMOZ link has a link to the MH archive . WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 12:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I would say MH is much more widely known that sexual-medicine.org. Not sure it is of much use for a casual reader though. -- Richiez (talk) 13:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Is this resolved, or do you need more help? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussions are explicitly closed at AN/I, but I wasn't aware that was the practice here at EL/N. I thought they simply were archived after a while. WhatamIdoing, might I ask why you asked? Since you have joined the conversation, please feel free to share your thoughts on the ELs being discussed. BitterGrey (talk) 02:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The general goal at ELN is for everyone to get the help they need. It's not always obvious from comments here whether that's happened, especially when the disputants have a long and fractious history.

I haven't looked at the links and therefore have no opinion. If Richiez's comments are sufficient to resolve the dispute, then I see no need for me to form an opinion on the links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

"long and fractious history"? I'm curious about why you write that, WhatamIdoing. Sure, I've had past disagreements with the editor who most recently re-added the EL to Magnus Hirschfeld Archive, but it seems hard to imagine a more suitable EL. Another particular editor has included the EL as an RS source in another article. Are you suggesting the EL's removal might not have been about the EL?

Frankly, I'm feeling singled out, and am concerned by the number of comments in this discussion that aren't about the ELs. I accept Richiez's comment, but was hoping for something more explicit. BitterGrey (talk) 07:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

If you've a serious disagreement with me or James Cantor, bring it up at a user request for comment or some other noticeboard dedicated to behavioural issues. The MH link is still included as a link via DMOZ. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:11, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

(This is where WLU declared the discussion closed.)BitterGrey (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I posted here seeking input on some external links; 'edits not editors' and all that. (Although at least based on that past edit, Cantor and I seem to agree about the Magnus Hirschfeld Archive.) WLU, please be aware that the harder you and WhatamIdoing try to end this discussion, the more it will look like there is something you don't wish to discuss. BitterGrey (talk) 14:59, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

You haven't raised any points that justify linking to the archive despite it already being a link in the DMOZ page. You have brought up the contributions of James Cantor (talk · contribs) from 2009, and my changes to a completely different page - both of which seem completely irrelevant given why I removed it. If you think it's worth re-including it on the page despite being included in the DMOZ, I would suggest justifying it's inclusion per WP:EL. Sexualmedicine.org isn't included in the DMOZ, and is a world-wide agency, I think it qualifies under WP:ELYES point 3. The DMOZ is mentioned specifically in WP:ELMAYBE point 3. If you have a question for the noticeboard, you need to formulate it more clearly because I have yet to see anything requiring a clear comment. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 22:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... I hadn't appreciated that Dr. Chakravarthy was both the founder and current president of Sexualmedicine.org as well as the media coordinator. (In addition to, as noted originally, probably also the editor who added the EL.) By what measure is it international?

While it might be a worthwhile EL among many, I don't think it should be the only non-DMOZ EL. Additionally, I don't recall inclusion in DMOZ being an WP:ELNO. Were it so, that would be a reason not to get on DMOZ. I think Sexualmedicine.org should go and Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology should be restored, but posted here seeking other opinions.

If you'll check, WLU, you'll find that it was WhatamIdoing that brought up some "long and fractious history." She has yet to explain what she meant. I would still welcome an explanation for that, in addition to an explanation about why my request is being handled in a unique fashion. WLU, you were first to mention Cantor, although I added a diff to him reinserting the EL that I think should be reinserted again. Of course, WhatamIdoing and all others are more than welcome to comment on the ELs.

Unless, of course, this was never about the ELs... BitterGrey (talk) 05:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

If this is not about ELs, take it elsewhere. If you're just concerned about the EL, stop bringing up motivations like you do in your closing line, which is an obvious accusation of bad faith. An EL stands or falls on its own merits, not on who adds it. I think inclusion in a DMOZ makes a duplicate link on the main page unnecessary, but that's a question that can be answered at ELN - you may have to start a new section.

Looking into the IASM further, you are correct in that it does seem to be a pretty limited to really just India. The International Society for Sexual Medicine seems a better choice - it is an umbrella organization for four other international organizations (Europe, Asia, South and North America) and sponsors a large number of international conferences . WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 13:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

(This is where WLU might actually have checked the ELs being discussed. He had edited to make IASM/Sexualmedicine.org the only non-DMOZ EL eight days before. BitterGrey (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC))

Actually, WLU, I think you've just demonstrated that your side of this conflict was never about the ELs. You repeatedly asserted that Sexualmedicine.org was "the international page" and "a world-wide agency". Then, you might actually have checked the EL, and found it was not international, exactly as I stated in the original post on the article discussion page. Did you stop to ask why WAID was pushing for closure instead of supporting you on the ELs?

Sadly, this follows the regular pattern of WLU's year-long wikihounding of me. Last time, he stated his intention to cite an article he hadn't read, and only conceded after the edit war that I was right. Like this time, he thoughtlessly reacted to my talk page comment by doing the exact opposite, arguing a lot, and wasting a lot of our time. An absurd example of his argument-for-arguments-sake is WLUs fighting to cite 47 pages of the DSM, then 5 pages (4RR/28 hours), (and hijacking a 3O), then zero pages,, and then finally one page at the same article. He claims to have read that source seven months into the conflict. He'll claim AGF for himself, but has stated the conclusion that I should be driven off Misplaced Pages.

And now, WLU and WAID have hijacked my request here.BitterGrey (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Attempting to un-hijack this discussion

Might I be able get some more input about the external links? Please check the ELs BEFORE commenting. I continue to believe the Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology is a worthwhile link, with a broad range of resources in multiple languages. It should not be penalized for the absence of the word "International" in the title, or its presence in DMOZ. I didn't add the EL originally, but believe it should be re-added. (I'm open to input about Sexualmedicine.org as well, but now that even WLU has actually checked it and supports my original position, there doesn't seem to be much point to discussing that EL further.) BitterGrey (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Resolved. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 21:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I've unhidden and reopened this discussion (reverting WLU's edit to hide and add yet another resolved tag - the second of two) in case others would like to comment. Getting input from a range of other editors was my initial intent for opening this discussion. Please note that the Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology EL has been restored and Sexualmedicine.org removed. However, since WLU's position is not the only one that matters, he should stop trying to close it merely because he has now abandoned his position. BitterGrey (talk) 14:54, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

If you want others to comment, I would suggest leaving out posts like the one above where you claim it's personal. If you are genuinely interested in further comment from other editors, I suggest deleting or hiding it because leaving it up there pretty much guarantees you're not going to get any of the "range of other editors" you claim you want input from. Conflict drives away uninterested parties.

Since I was under the impression the issues were whether the Magnus Hirschfeld archive and sexual-medicine.org articles should be included on the page, I assumed that by pointing out the MH archive was in the DMOZ (and later adding it to the page in spite of this) and removing sexual-medicine.org, the issues were resolved. You haven't actually brought up any new issues relevant to external links, just a bunch of editorial commentary irrelevant to the purpose of this board, I thought things were resolved.

Could you restate the issues relevant to this noticeboard you are seeking input on? Otherwise everyone else might get the impression that the issues are the failure to include the Magnus Hirschfeld Archive and the inappropriate inclusion of the sexual-medicine.org link. Just a note to any other editors, both of Bittergrey's suggestions have been implemented. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 00:32, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

A painting at Daphne

On March 5 an IP (75.87.129.242) added an external link to Daphne for a Kansas City-based artist's interpretation of the myth of Apollo and Daphne. (It should probably be noted that the IP is in KC, both where the artist lives and where the painting is in a private collection; this IP has not added any other links to the artist's work.) I immediately reverted with the none-too-friendly edit summary "Spam". The IP kindly asked my rationale instead of just re-adding the link, to which I replied: "I deleted the link because the painting by Mr. Goodrich does not contribute to an encyclopedic understanding of the topic itself and is not (by Misplaced Pages standards) notable enough to warrant inclusion based upon the its own, or the painter's, notability." Since the IP is clearly editing in good faith, I bring the discussion here, just in case I'm way out of bounds. — cardiff | chestnut — 02:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Overall, I think I agree with you: Your first WP:edit summary was not especially friendly and probably inaccurate. However, the link really doesn't belong on that particular page, since it doesn't really tell the reader anything encyclopedic (e.g., useful, informative, factual, etc.) about Daphne. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

The page has three other paintings of the myth, the most recent more than a quarter millennium old. My intention in including Goodrich's treatment of the subject was (and is) to show that the subject matter is still being painted. Would it be acceptable to get a CC release for Goodrich's image, upload that to the commons, and include it as a fourth illustration, showing the continuing trends in painters' treatments of this myth? Because right now it looks like an old myth that nobody has bothered to do anything with since the reign of George II and that is erroneous. 75.87.129.242 (talk) 16:20, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The general threshold for works of art and links thereof is (in my opinion) the notability of the artist. Otherwise everyone with a website and scanner can link to any example even tangentially related to the page. To avoid being a soapbox for everyone who can post something online, we must maintain fairly rigid standards for what can be included as an EL.

If there is evidence that Goodrich is a notable artist, that s/he has received sufficient interest and acclaim to merit a wikipedia page, I would suggest creating that page, uploading that image an then discussing whether to include it on Daphne. Only if the painting itself has been particularly lauded is it worth using an external link. This is how we distinguish between "society still expresses interest in the subject matter" and "one artist still finds the subject interesting". Putting in an external link to a non-notable artist's webpage is indistinguishable from spam, irrespective the intent. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:11, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I think this thread might now be considered closed as it is no longer an external link issue. The IP has pursued its proposed solution at Talk:Daphne: having uploaded the image to Commons, it now asks for opinions about the inclusion of the image. — cardiff | chestnut — 01:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Barry Minkow

"Barry Minkow Beneath the Iceberg" is a multipage website exposé written by Len Clements and hosted at his website marketwaveinc.com. Is this appropriate to be listed as an external link (or under heading "Further reading") in the article about Barry Minkow, perpetrator of a famous case of investment fraud? Since Minkow is a living person, this question appears to raise issues under WP:BLPEL and WP:BLPSPS. User:Mwave, who states that xe is the author of the work in question, and I have been discussing this on the talk page, and additional perspectives would be helpful.--Arxiloxos (talk) 01:37, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

mb-soft.com

This site has been added to (and then removed from) a large number of articles, e.g. . Although the IP editor doing the removal is suspected to be a banned user, I think his point is essentially correct. This is a self-published source unsuitable in most Misplaced Pages articles. Is it possible to configure the edit filer or a similar tool to reject or warn about adding links to this site? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, yes: you can see about having it WP:BLACKLISTed, or if it's just being added by anons, then XLinkBot (talk · contribs) is a possibility.

But if that diff is at all typical, you're in the wrong place: ELN only deals with stuff that is (or should be) underneath the ==External links== header, and the EL guideline directly permits links to non-RS websites. Web pages being used to support article content are definitely out of scope for ELN. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:14, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Link from "panspermia" to panspermia.org.

The Misplaced Pages page on "panspermia" formerly had an External Link link to panspermia.org. It is the number one Internet resource for the topic. This link was approved after a lengthy discussion a year or two ago. Now one of your pseudonymed editors has removed it. Can it be restored?

<A href="http://www.panspermia.org">Cosmic Ancestry</a>

Yes, it was removed per consensus because it doesn't meet WP:Reliable sources, and because of the obvious WP:COI. OhNoitsJamie 16:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

All of that was already discussed and the link was approved. If you say it is unreliable, you should say where it is unreliable, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrigKlyce (talk • contribs) 16:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC) How do I sign? I'm logged in with my real name. Brig Klyce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrigKlyce (talk • contribs) 16:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The issues with reliability were already covered in the ANI discussion I linked to. I don't see anywhere in that discussion that the link was given consensus approval. OhNoitsJamie 16:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The link was kept following that discussion of c. Feb 2011. It was only removed by a new party in Oct 2011, if I am understanding the edits log correctly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrigKlyce (talk • contribs) 17:02, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Unless you can provide a link to a diff showing where this "approval" was, I'm going to chalk this up to a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. OhNoitsJamie 17:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The External Link to panspermia.org was actually not the topic of the year-ago discussion. The link sat there known to all, while another link, to a specific page that had content not otherwise available, was ruled out. I am a leading expert on the subject of panspermia. The Wictionary definition of panspermia, linked from your panspermia page, is the one I wrote. Your page lacks a link to the oldest (older than Misplaced Pages), best-maintained and most complete Internet resource on the subject. If you disagree, please say why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrigKlyce (talk • contribs) 19:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Jamie, the WP:External links guideline explicitly permits the inclusion of links to non-reliable sources at WP:ELMAYBE #4. Spam's a problem, and self-promotion is undesirable, but "it doesn't meet WP:Reliable sources" is irrelevant.

In fact, Headbomb removed it a few months ago not for being "unreliable", but for being "self-published", which is kind of a silly excuse, because nearly all websites are self-published: anything that is written and published by the same entity is self-published. For example, coca-cola.com is written and published by Coca-Cola, Inc., and thus the official website for that company is self-published. If we had to exclude all self-published sources, then we'd have to remove all websites that weren't run by traditional publishers (like Random House and newspaper websites).

Brig, you should not take my bureaucratic comments here as implying the least bit of support for including your website(s). I support WP:ELBURDEN (all disputed websites are always removed), and I have no reason to believe that these websites are desirable for Misplaced Pages. But I'd like to have the archives reflect the guideline and the reasons for the URL's removal accurately. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:26, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

BrigKlyce, the link was NOT approved. You are (at best) mistaken, but given some of your other behavior and your declaration that you were leaving the site, I'm inclined to think you know what really happened. The archived discussion may be found here.

WP:ELNO excludes:

2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting. -- That site is not the source of the panspermia theory, it is just one believer's collected opinions.

11. Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority -- That site is BrigKlyce's own blog, nothing else. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

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