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Shame

Jimbo, you take credit in the media for starting this project, so you should take responsibility for allowing it to be misused as it is to give living people a hard time. Take some responsiblity. Ayn Rand's philosophy didn't absolve you of taking responsibility, did it? Come on...do the right thing. Cla68 (talk) 08:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you point to any problems in the current article? I have engaged directly with Mr. Hawkins about the article, and personally went through it line-by-line looking for any inaccuracies or errors. I additionally courtesy-blanked the deletion discussions, reprimanded an editor who was rude, and asked another editor who the subject finds annoying to steer clear of the article. So, what is the 'right thing' that you think I've failed to do?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Delete it. That's the decent thing to do, given the history. Kevin (talk) 11:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Given what history, exactly? I've looked into this case in pretty close detail, and I see nothing from the history of the situation that would warrant deletion of the article today. Can you be more precise about why you think that's the right thing to do here? Also, to be clear, I think Cla68 is asking me to overrule community consensus, which would be extremely controversial to say the least. So, obviously, I'd need to have a really really good reason. Even if I agreed that the article should be deleted, that's no different from many hundreds or thousands of votes every year on the site where I might find myself voting in the minority of some issue. If I acted with special powers every little time I disagreed with something, we'd have a huge mess on our hands.

So why is this case not just one in which you (or Cla68, at least) thinks that the community has come to the wrong decision, but that the decision is sufficiently and importantly wrong to such a degree that I ought to do something dramatic about it? I just don't see how that makes sense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in part a question of precedent. This is not a household name. Practically all the sources are primary, and regional, sources. There is no national coverage of him. Someone with that level of notability should have an opt-out from Misplaced Pages, especially if they feel distressed by the way their biography and its associated talk page have been handled by Misplaced Pages's anonymous editors.

The number of biographies rises daily. The number of editors looking after them does not. If we allow that trend to continue, the problems caused by BLP violations will increase. --JN466 13:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Judging by comments on Wifione's talk page, I believe the Hawkins AfD is headed for deletion review. JN466 13:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been in lengthy discussions with Jim Hawkins via his FaceBook account, identifying myself as a WP admin and asking if I can help. Principally, I wanted to know what errors he had detected in the article about him so that I could correct or remove them. Jimbo has asked him the same questions. However he's unwilling to answer that question, instead asking that because of unspecified inaccuracies the article as a whole should be deleted. I've stopped my dialogue with him and left it that I'm willing to be contacted by him at any future date if he wants corrections making. I don't think we can say fairer than that. He has asked me "Why does there have to be a Misplaced Pages article about me" and I suppose the answer is, "there doesn't". By which I mean, it would not be compulsory for us to have one if none existed. However one does exist, obviously. So the question really becomes "Why should it be deleted?" to which the AfD has responded "it shouldn't". There we leave it, unless Jayen wants to propose that WP should not host any BLP's because of the difficulty of maintaining them. Kim Dent-Brown 15:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There simply isn't the secondary-source coverage demanding that we have an article. All the sources bar one, which is a bare mention of his name, are regional and primary sources. There is no national, let alone international, media coverage. The dozen sources cited in the article are pretty much all there is. Someone with that level of notability should simply be able to say "I don't want an article", and we should comply. Why should the man have to worry constantly whether the annual stalker of his tweets will have been busy on the talk page again overnight, or whether the article will again declare to the world which yahoo group he hangs out in, or whether he likes Marmite? Whose business is it?

By the way, I do think we should abandon anonymous editing of little-watched biographies like that. And if not that, we certainly should have flagged revisions for them. The simple fact of the matter is that we are plainly unable to maintain minor biographies and their talk pages in a policy-compliant state, and it's the subjects of those, who are not in the news on a daily or weekly basis, that are most affected by any questionable material. JN466 19:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

@Jimbo - the history of vandalism, of petty revert warring over his DOB, and his clearly stated desire not to have an article. Then when he states that the stress of not knowing what will be said about him next is causing health issues, instead of acting with compassion and decency, we have editors fighting to include where he lives, and Silver Seren with his aggressive demands that the subject justify his feelings. Those are the things that make this different. Kevin (talk) 22:35, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in part a question of precedent: yes, it certainly is. And the precedent some people seem to want to set, is that if you don't think the coverage of you in Misplaced Pages is sufficiently flattering, you can whinge in your blog, on your TV or radio show, and by e-mail, until it's deleted, without ever making any coherent case for why it should be removed instead of improved. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:31, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

That comment is simplistic and offensive. --JN466 19:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

And accurate. -DJSasso (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Accurate? No, not in the slightest. Those who called for deletion did so because they felt his notability was marginal at best and the subject made it known that the existence of a Misplaced Pages article is something he finds distasteful. Whether he was spiteful, angelic, mean, or a perfect gentleman about the matter should not be a concern to us; anonymous and pseudonymous editors have no moral or ethical standing to make value judgements about publicly identifiable people. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"Tarc" (whoever you are) I am known to most people by the same name I use here; and my legal name is right there on my userpage for anybody to see. I reject and spurn any accusation that I'm "hiding behind" the name most people know me by. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:20, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Certainly people can't make those judgments in the articles themselves. But people certainly are able to have their opinions on the actions of a public figure. And it clearly appears that he is just complaining where-ever/however he can to try and get an article he can't control removed. He has been approached by numerous people including Jimbo to clear up any so called inaccuracies and he refused to even reveal what they are. Thus it would be setting a precedent that complain enough if you have a public forum on which you can do so (such as a radio show) and your article will be removed. So yes it is accurate to say that it would set a precedent that complain enough on a radio show and you can get your article removed. -DJSasso (talk) 20:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

If Hawkins is a non-public figure, then his radio show must surely be a non-public forum. So where's the problem? FormerIP (talk) 20:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah? Have you done a study of the edit history and think that it stands up to encyclopedic standards? (And it should not be inferred that any of these editors was the subject.) --JN466 20:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There is vandalism on tens of thousands of articles. It gets fixed usually fairly rapidly. Still doesn't change the fact he appears to just be complaining because he can't control it completely. -DJSasso (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Says an editor editing from behind the veil of anonymity, whose name is not affected by any of this, and who does not give a shit if someone identifiable is harmed. What a model of behaviour. --JN466 20:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in the article at this point is harmful, anything that is harming him at this point is of his own doing and own actions since he started getting upset at wikipedia. If you don't want to be a public figure you don't take a job as a public figure like he has and you don't tweet/post your personal information out into the web like he has. It really is that simple. -DJSasso (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

He is a local radio guy, in Shropshire. No national media coverage, most of the 12 sources are primary sources. That simply isn't a "public figure". There are hundreds or thousands of local radio guys like that who don't have an article in Misplaced Pages. And the argument that tweeting makes you a public figure suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, or that tweeting is something that ought to be punished by anonymous editors creating an article on the person in Misplaced Pages ("anything you tweet can and will be held against you in Misplaced Pages"), is bizarre. The fact of the matter is that people only started looking at his tweets because there were no sources. JN466 22:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

A local radio guy who used to be a national radio guy. But even if he was still just a local radio guy being a host on the radio makes you a public figure. Whether or not it makes you notable is another matter, but it does make you a public figure. And I didn't say that tweeting made him a public figure. My point was that he tweeted or otherwise posted the information that is in the article on the net, so he can't really complain that it is now public since it was him who made it public. -DJSasso (talk) 22:46, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

One-dimensional thinking. A tweet is transient. A Misplaced Pages biography is permanent, and the no. 1 Google link for someone's name. People don't expect random tweets to end up there, nor should they. And when biography subjects tell Misplaced Pages to stay the fuck out of their tweets, that's what Misplaced Pages should do. --JN466 02:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Further, I would note that an IP purporting to be the subject has posted this at the Deletion Review]. Tarc (talk) 20:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• And there is now further meltdown on the article's talk page, with the subject being asked to explain to anonymous editors why he does not want Misplaced Pages to list his birth date (even though per BLP policy, he has the right not to have it listed), and Pigsonthewing making a return to editing the article and its talk page. This has nothing to do with writing an encyclopedia. JN466 20:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Can you stop repeating that the birth date doesn't have to be listed. You've said that a number of times already and i've also acknowledged it a number of times. I merely asked because, as far as I can tell, he has yet to explain why anywhere or to anyone. And I also specifically said that he doesn't have to answer it. But if he's going to keep repeating psychological stress without explaining why publically available information is doing as such, then it rather lessens any weight we give to him. Silverseren 21:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Why the fuck do you think it is any of our business why Hawkins objects to information about him appearing on Misplaced Pages? This seems to be nothing more than hounding of the subject, for no good reason at all.I think we can take it as a foregone conclusion that Pigsonthewing is going to be topic-banned for this - and I'd suggest we consider doing the same for Silver seren. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

He does not have to explain, because you do not have a right to know. JN466 21:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• I wasn't involved here but having read the discussion it is fairly obvious that someone's privacy has been violated (again) and in contravention of Misplaced Pages's rules. Cla68 asked for someone to be accountable, not for a specific action to be taken. Jimmy Wales responded, if I may paraphrase, "it's not my fault; the community did it". The question is, if not Jimmy Wales, who is accountable? Alex Harvey (talk) 02:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • This whole site is set up to ensure that, as far as possible, no one here can be held accountable. Not the Foundation, because they are hiding behind Section 230, and not the editors, because they are (mostly) hiding behind their pseudonyms. The only people who are all in here with their real names are article subjects. JN466 02:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • Can you explain how exactly Hawkins' privacy has been violated? I don't think that has anything to do with this discussion, as we're discussing public information, all of which is available from his section of the BBC website. Silverseren 02:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • There is a reason BLP isn't called WP:SLAVISHLYMAKEAFUTILEEFFORTTOSTUFFTHEGENIEOFFREELYREVEALEDINFORMATIONBACKINTOTHELAMPIFTHESUBJECTBITCHESLOUDLYENOUGH. There's absolutely nothing being discussed here tha isn't already quite well-known, and as usual I wholeheartedly agree with Orangemike. I find it amazing that we are so hard on COI editors when it comes to criticizing products and organizations they create, but god forbid we take such a hard stand against vague complaints with no substance in these sorts of situations; there's no difference save the article in question. And if you don't think people feel as strongly about their creations as they do about themselves/family members, do read what Frank Zappa, Dee Snider, and John Denver said when the PMRC went on their foray into trying to foist their personal views on what was "offensive" on the US. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

We have a far greater responsibility to understand BLP subjects than they have a responsibility to communicate. It's not their fault that we created an article about them, and it's unfair to expect all such subjects to be experts at presenting their case. If they make vague complaints, then it's up to us to figure out how to express those complaints in terms we can apply policies to. Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, we're not mind readers. If they refuse to say what their objections are, and the article appears to be BLP compliant, it's beholden on them to specify what they feel is wrong with the article. We can't just guess. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

UK law enforcement requests article removal

Apparently, UK law enforcement has recently requested (not ordered) removal of a crime article, or part of the article, so as to mitigate pre-trial publicity and ensure a fair trial for the defendant.

In the community discussion, so far the majority of commentators are saying "Tough if someone outside WP wants it removing", even though Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Crime_perpetrators recommends giving serious thought to excluding such content.

Thoughts? --JN466 14:57, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You are conflating two distinct issues. WP:BLPCRIME advises omitting material on the suspect. That can be accomplished without deleting the entire article; it can also be accomplished without deleting most of the content of the article (and then fully protecting it, as an admin has now done). We can adhere to Misplaced Pages policies without deferring to a single country's law enforcement officials. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Two thoughts come to mind. First, whatever they want removed is obviously covered elsewhere on the net, so removing it from our article won't help much. Second, Streisand effect. If this case is big enough that UK police are asking for a change or removal, then it is big enough that the media could well turn the removal into a story, thus ensuring greater coverage. Resolute 15:36, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

This looks like a rerun of the Murder of Joanna Yeates‎. The sub judice rules in English law can prevent the media from reporting certain information while an investigation or trial is in progress. Provided that material has appeared in reliable sources, such as the BBC, there should be no problems.--♦IanMacM♦ 15:55, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

To Resolute, given that it is all collected in one place here, rather than spread out across a hundred sites, it clearly does make a difference. Secondly, if we simply comply, in the interest of doing our bit as socially-minded citizens to help ensure a fair trial, there need be no Streisand effect at all. Thirdly, to Nomo, it's a UK case, and as such hardly of any vital interest to readers in the US or New Zealand. Fourthly, to Ianmacm, I do recall that in the wake of the Yeates murder, we, along with the UK tabloid press, for several weeks defamed a wholly innocent man. It was not one of our finest hours. We proved that we are no encyclopedia, but just a tabloid aggregator. --JN466 16:10, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree that the conduct of the UK tabloid press following the murder of Joanna Yeates was disgraceful, this is why it led to successful libel action and contempt of court proceedings by the Attorney General. However, it would be worrying to prevent the mention of material that is already available in reliable sources. The same man (CH) has been charged with two murders, this cannot be easily hidden.--♦IanMacM♦ 16:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

There was a courteous request to OTRS to remove detailed reports of the investigation of the case in order that the defendant could have a fair trial. I was not sure what could be done although obviously the information may be not only inadmissible and prejudicial but wrong. I initiated a request for deletion, which is what the matter amounts to if all or nearly all references are removed, but realized Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Crime_perpetrators applied. In fact, I can think of nothing that applies more than publication of a criminal investigation prior to trial. There are no court orders regarding this matter that I am aware of. User:Fred Bauder Talk 16:31, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Fred and Jayen on this. The reason I wrote Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Crime perpetrators and included it in our BLP policy was exactly for these reasons, so we could strongly come out against including material that - even though adhering to NOR or V - could purport a living person to be guilty of a crime before an actual conviction is secured. My suggestion would be to strongly ensure the non-inclusion of any such material within the article, irrespective of the course the AfD takes. Wifione 17:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It is arguably reasonable to omit information about the suspect. But in fact the article has been stubbed by removing significant amounts of information that had nothing to do with the suspect. It would be possible to have an article here that does not refer to the suspect, and in my view it's improper to accede to the request of a law enforcement official that there be no article at all. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:11, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Without a court order, this request has no legal validity. The suppression of material freely available in reliable sources is not what Misplaced Pages is about. The man CH has not only been arrested, he is facing two murder charges, and this has been reported by the BBC and other mainstream media outlets. The UK police have exceeded their powers with this request. There are no problems with linking to news coverage.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

So yet again it comes down to 'WP:NOTCENCORED' blah, blah, blah, 'free speech' blah, blah, blah - and no consideration whatsoever to the fact that we shouldn't have had the article in the first place, per multiple policies... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:22, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Although I am not convinced about the WP:GNG angle at the moment, the UK police should have read Streisand effect before making such a poorly thought out request. It would be a sad day if ongoing court proceedings could not be mentioned at all.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Any Streisand effect is due to my efforts to initiate a policy discussion, and our anarchic response as a community. It is our encyclopedic content which is not censored, we do not, as a matter of policy, include news reports of criminal investigations, see Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Crime_perpetrators. We are a reference work not a news outlet. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:29, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It would be a sadder day if the only reason that Misplaced Pages chose to include anything and everything was just because it would be 'censorship' to omit it. If people wan't to read about 'ongoing court proceedings', there are plenty of other sources to assist. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

If we can make progress on this matter at the cost of only one serial killer going free it is worth it. Not going to England anyway... User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:32, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Ahem... 'alleged'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:35, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Image:CensoredRhodesiaHerald.jpg

What you see on this front page of the Rhodesia Herald is not censorship. It is overt opposition to censorship. Real and effective censorship always works in secrecy. -- Petri Krohn (talk)

None of you seem to understand how censorship in Britain works and I cannot blame you, as none of this is explained in any of the articles on Censorship in Britain. There is no lack sources for this case, it has been extensively covered in all of British media, with the name of the suspect splashed all over the news. British censorship law prevents not only publishing new stories on the subject, but existing on-line sources are being taken off-line and disappearing from Internet as we speak. This should not be a problem for Misplaced Pages, as there is no need for sources to be on-line. Even printed sources are known to have been used in some articles. Removing the on-line articles does not remove the information from the internet, much of the material is available through Google cache. Of the 20 references in the original article the five that first went off-line seen to be the ones suggesting a link between the murder and another body found.

I have voiced a strong objection to the way this has now been handled. This was a British "request". Will we abide by similar requests from Russia or China? Most likely not. If the article stays censored, it should be made clear this was NOT a community decision. The hat-note should explicitly state that the article has been deleted / censored as a result of a gag-order from British authorities.

As for Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Crime_perpetrators, I believe the necessary action would at most be removing the suspects name from the article. We are not making accusations, we are not even sticking to "facts", we are only reporting what reliable sources have already stated. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:39, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The links to news reports introduce details of the investigation which may be both inadmissible and prejudicial, to say nothing of possibly being wrong. News reports are notorious for getting things wrong and placing inappropriate emphasis on details. We are better than that. User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:01, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no court order, just a courteous request. We are just following policy by not publishing defamatory information about a living person. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:43, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It is not defamatory to report court proceedings in reliable media sources.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:55, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Why would they bother with a trial when it is obvious from the Misplaced Pages article that they are guilty? User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:57, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

This type of "gag-order" does not require a dedicated court order. British authorities can censor the media without going to court. Only if this was a civil case would a super-injunction be needed. (And if that was the case, we would never hear about it either.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:06, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Having read through the version of Death of Sian O'Callaghan that was suppressed, it did not have any major BLP issues. It pointed out that CH has been charged with two murders (Sian O'Callaghan and BGE), but did not imply guilt. The link of CH to the death of another woman, MH, is more speculative, and CH has not been charged with her murder. Since all of this information is on the BBC website, this would be covered by the now standard advice of a judge for jury members not to research the case on the Internet. --♦IanMacM♦ 18:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Reports of the investigation contain information which may be inadmissible or prejudicial, or even plain wrong. User:Fred Bauder Talk 19:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

In many commonwealth realm countries it's generally considered questionable if instructions to the jury to not research cases independently is sufficient, as evidence sometimes evidence emerges that juries have ignored such instructions. Plus you still run the risk of juries coming across the info inadvertedly. Nil Einne (talk) 01:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Petri, if we accede to a request to remove the article we retain the freedom to republish it at any time, and in particular to republish it after the trial is over (and update it). If you feel diminished by acceding to such a request, made in the service of a greater good, your reaction is simply not that of a responsible adult. Moreover, you are fetishising our freedom to regurgitate popular press statements and speculations – which, as the Yeates case proved, are often complete rubbish – to a degree that is completely disproportionate to their actual encyclopedic value. (That fetishisation of Misplaced Pages content was a worrying tendency equally apparent in the recent Hawkins AfD.) By the way, the SPI is a nice April Fool's joke! :) Sorry to break the festive mood. --JN466 19:05, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

How does service of a greater good differ from WP:ACTIVIM? What other greater goods and good causes should Misplaced Pages take up? Maybe bringing "freedom" and "democracy" to all the worlds oppressed peoples?

In reality I do not object to censorship of the article. What I object to is the way this is done. What I would like to see is that the hat note be changed to something like: "This article has been redacted to comply with the Sub judice requirements of British law." -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:41, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Why? It hasn't been. Nobody has suggested that it has. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The article was modified to comply with Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Crime_perpetrators. The request from English law enforcement just brought the problem to our attention. User:Fred Bauder Talk 19:52, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

This is not the case and you know it. I am not going to take your word for it and neither has the community. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:00, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I see a pretty obvious difference between activism and enabling a fair trial. You don't? --JN466 20:39, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any particular reason to think we won't abide by a similar Russian or Chinese request. Yes we'd get some objection just as we are getting some now. In fact, I'm pretty sure this issue has came up before and I said the same thing, we should abide by a similar Russian, Chinese or whatever request. Note 'similar' is a key word. If they are asking us to temporarily remove information to ensure a fair trial that's fine. If they are asking us to permanently remove stuff which they feel is prejudiced against them or untrue, that's not a similar example. Since China has a jury system similar to a number of other countries uses a jury system where a judge is involved and in Russia there is only very limited use of juries and I've seen no evidence they have a similar system of subjudice, it's unclear to me whether a similar request is likely. Nil Einne (talk) 02:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I remember now there was the case of Peter Tobin, see Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 20#Current legal cases & Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive177#Admin deletes article per Scottish police (probably more discussion in other areas) Nil Einne (talk) 02:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Articles which make "allegations" make bad encyclopedia articles, especially when any sort of POV can be attached thereto. I suggest that articles subject to WP:BLP in any manner which make allegations be strongly constrained. Collect (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Is this an April Fools thing? FormerIP (talk) 20:02, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. --JN466 20:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

As this has been apparently referred to WMF legal, I won't do anything until such time as they respond. But I do have a view on this. As is well-known I take a strong view on the necessity to uphold the highest standards of dignity and responsibility on biographies of living persons. We ought not to repeat tabloid speculation in most cases. I think there are a number of newspapers, particularly in the UK, which we should (almost) never accept as sources due to their ongoing bias, inflammatory exaggerations, etc. But I think that the article it its current form is much too restricted. We have a valid report in the BBC, which among the popular media is at the very pinnacle of quality and reliability. The information that Mr. Halliwell has been accused of murder, the accusation coming at an open court hearing at which he appeared, is a fact that couldn't possibly prejudice his trial. (I mean, the fact that he's going to go on trial for murder will already be apparent to jurors when the case is heard, since he'll be on trial for murder!) I really like Collect's formulation, above: "I suggest that articles subject to WP:BLP in any manner which make allegations be strongly constrained."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure where this request came from; but it sounds highly suspicious and in my (unfortunately lengthy) experience of the UK justice system, is not something they would do (or try). The police have specific avenues to apply these measures to the press - which they have not used in this case (having checked). --Errant 08:50, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• If this is a "courteous request", why is the article locked down pending evaluation by WMF legal? That doesn't sound like a very courteous request to me. And I think that there can be no question that different governments are treated very differently here. I imagine the Chinese government has complained a few times about the Tian'anmen Square protests of 1989 article, but we still include febrile imaginings about the number of killings by the living persons of the 27th Army ranging up to 10,000, even though these early rumors are anything but confirmed. Even Amnesty International has called the deaths 1000 or hundreds, yet the infobox there still says 2,500. And nobody cares - even when it gets Misplaced Pages blocked for a billion people. Because China is a Bad Country and Britain is a Good Country. I wish we could strike an average somewhere nearer the middle, neither featuring fringe points of view to embarrass bad countries, nor excluding free-ranging coverage of reliable sources from the media when a "good country" asks "courteously". Wnt (talk) 22:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of Touré's surname in his article

Hi, Jimmy Since the matter of whether to include Touré's surname has come up again, can you cast your vote here? If anyone here would like to participate, we could sure use your input to get a bead on the community consensus. If you're unfamiliar with the arguments for and against doing including the surname, you can read them just above that section, or click here. The discussion is of considerable length, but not too long to get a gist of the primary arguments for and against. I really appreciate it. Thanks. Nightscream Nightscream (talk) 16:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I commented over there. I hope we can get more eyes on the situation, as it's an interesting one and, I think can and should be handled with respect and dignity... but only so long as people don't get wound up and into "WP:NOTCENSORED!!!111!!! is ALL!!!" mode.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

April Fool's pranking policy?

Editors should be able to have fun once a year. However, some pranks are disruptive. I seek to strike a balance between those two aspects. I propose the following:

1. There should be one April Fool's prank in article space. This should be clever, well-designed and funny, like Google's pranks. It should not be immediately obvious as a joke, but neither should it be so plausible that it lasts until after April 1 is over.
2. Other pranks are OK so long as they stay within the community namespaces (project, user, and talk namespaces) and do not affect article space. For example, joke AfDs would be fine, as long as the joke-nominated articles didn't have deletion templates on them.
3. Ruining of (legitimate) jokes by exposing them can result in a block after a warning.
4. The best April Fool's pranks should be commemorated in an April Fool's Hall of Fame, the worst in an April Fool's Hall of Infamy.
5. Editors should try to come up with original pranks, rather than repeating the same ones year after year.
6. Standard vandalism remedies will be applied to violators of this policy.

What do you think? ChromaNebula (talk) 22:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:VPP is the best place, as this is a community concept. I was inches from blocking some folks this morning due to horrifically idiotic AFD's, BLP vios. It's already being discussed at AN wrongly (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:30, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Just for reference, this year's April Fool's DYKs included:

... that in 2007, the owners of a hairy Fabulous Willy were criticised for being homosexual?

... that Nintendo owns the rights to a pornographic film?

... that Santa Claus was a stud?

... that in 2009, the urinal known as "The Carousel of Love" (pictured), a well known place for gay cruising, was declared a Norwegian Cultural Heritage Site?

... that an Italian Protestant fathered The Virgin Mary in 1950?

... that T. vagina have eyes hidden behind their skin?

... that a Baker went into outer space with sea urchin sperm, later receiving a rubber duck and many bananas for her efforts?

... that if you want to talk to the anal it helps to speak their language?

... that Ralph Dewey (pictured) blows up animals for Jesus?

... that a Roman Catholic priest got five Super Bowl rings with the 49ers?

... that Nuns can fly at high altitudes?

... that red hot penises can be pickled, but it is recommended one not eat them? JN466 23:05, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The first one and the last two are obviously BLP violations...--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:07, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

BLP regards unsourced criticisms of particular persons, which does include misleading statements. The Ralph Dewey one is concerningly misleading, but I see no issue with any of the others. Miss Baker is a monkey, not a person. Nuns are a group, not a person. Santa Claus is a fictional character, not a person. And Nintendo really does own the rights to a pornographic film. Dcoetzee 02:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, maybe not exactly BLP for the last two, but still, these aren't going to be found funny by many people.--Jasper Deng (talk) 03:37, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

For the last one, see what a penis pepper is. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 12:20, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal practically in its entirety. To begin with, the Misplaced Pages April Fool's tradition doesn't (or at least shouldn't) involve any deception; the jokes must be obvious because the way the hooks are worded is practically all people have to work with. The article information is quirky because it just is quirky. Having all the hooks be something nutty is part of the tradition, and a good one.

The obsession with sex affects censors and productive editors alike; this is an illustration of the Hodge-Podge principle from The Illuminatus Trilogy. Trying to ban sexual content (including humor) only makes it more on editors' minds when creative ideas are called for; likewise the desire to flourish it defiantly provokes the would-be censors. Wnt (talk) 05:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There is a difference between censorship and exercising good taste. The former is imposed from without, the latter is a sign of intelligence and sensibility. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

That's 100% correct. The idea is not to censor things, but to actually be funny. To actually be funny takes more than cheap sex gags. We should always aim higher.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:31, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Like I said on AN (because someone moved WP:BEANS and could not move it back): "So then create WP:Don't stuff Lima beans up your friend's nose, use pinto beans instead; make it humourous. Then nominate it for MFD - you then draw people's attention to your humour. Mindless MFD's are not positive, and are truly a disruption in all cases" (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:28, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I rather liked Ron Ritzman's "leaving in a hissy fit", and of course I liked my addition to the top of RfA and my Temple of Artemis AfD. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 12:27, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Disagree with the proposal. Firstly there should be no April Fools pranks in mainspace (and if we did allow one who would get to decide which one?). As for the rest of the pedia some jokes are funnier than others, if you don't think a particular joke RFA is funny then don't participate in it. The mainpage is an institution, I doubt if we have consensus to move away from our strange but true tradition. If you don't think that this year was particularly good then please help make next year better. ϢereSpielChequers 12:49, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• I think it just may be time to move on from the April Fools' "tradition" here, honestly. It may have been cool and hip 5-6 years ago here, but as the population has grown significantly since then its just no longer a case of "oh I know Person X, he wasn't being serious". There's too many names, too many admins for that familiarity to stay rooted. This year's run of jokes came across like a bunch of late 20-somethings who still hang around the college campus and get hammered every week. Sooner or later it is time to mature. Tarc (talk) 13:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

We shouldn't expect Misplaced Pages's userbase to get older just because the project gets older - if we do that, eventually we'll be moaning about "demographic catastrophe". We'll always have lots of twenty-somethings reading and should have no shame about entertaining them. Provided, of course, that we don't damage any core principles in the process. It may be that some of the jokes weren't funny enough; if so WP:SOFIXIT applies. But to be fair, some of the previous April Fools pages were masterworks, very hard to beat, especially with a decreasing editor base. Wnt (talk) 22:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Histogram graph of editor retention

Due to limited time, I have created a simple text histogram, in an effort to show how the editor-retention pattern stabilized at 34,000 active registered users during 2010-2011. After examining the data, I noticed how the "stair-step" drops have become shorter each year. During 2011, the seasonal drops during April, June, September and December were very small.
The following chart shows the level of active editors (with >5 edits) during 2008-2012:

Years: _ _ _ _ _ _2008 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2009 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2010 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2011 _ _ _ _ _ _2012
47,000  _ _ M
46,000  _ _ MM
45,000  MMMMM
44,000  MMMMM
43,000  MMMMM _m _ _ _ _ _ m _M
42,000  MMMMMMMM _M _ _ M _M
41,000  MMMMMMMM _M _ _ MMMM
40,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMM _M _ _ m _M
39,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMM _MM _ M _M
38,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMmMMM MmMMM _ _ _ _ _ _ _ m _M
37,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM _ _ _ _ _ _ _ MMM
36,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMM _ _ _ _ MMMMMm _m
35,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMM _ MMMMMMMMMM _ _ M _? ? ?
34,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMXXX
33,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
32,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
31,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
30,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
Months: J F MA MJ J A S ON D J F MA M J J A S ON D J F MA MJ J A S ON D J F MA M J J A S ON D  J F MA M
Years: _ _ _ _ _ _2008 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2009 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2010 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2011 _ _ _ _ _ _2012

By truncating the histogram below 30,000 editors, the stair-step pattern is exaggerated to show how the step height had decreased to varying by only 1,000 editors during April, June, and September 2011. In fact, the editor count for 2011 returned to the level of December 2010 (34,000 editors), unlike all the prior years. That level was continued into January & February this year (2012). I am working on an essay to better explain the seasonal drops, each year, during April, June, September and December.

The full histogram (shown below) reduces the exaggerated effect of the stair-step drops during each year, to show the extent of the solid support of the core average of 34,000 active editors during the past 16 months.

Years: _ _ _ _ _ _2008 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2009 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2010 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2011 _ _ _ _ _ _2012
47,000  _ _ M
46,000  _ _ MM
45,000  MMMMM
44,000  MMMMM
43,000  MMMMM _m _ _ _ _ _ m _M
42,000  MMMMMMMM _M _ _ M _M
41,000  MMMMMMMM _M _ _ MMMM
40,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMM _M _ _ m _M
39,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMM _MM _ M _M
38,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMmMMM MmMMM _ _ _ _ _ _ _ m _M
37,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM _ _ _ _ _ _ _ MMM
36,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMM _ _ _ _ MMMMMm _m
35,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMM _ MMMMMMMMMM _ _ M_? ? ?
34,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMXXX
33,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
32,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
31,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
30,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
29,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
28,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
27,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
26,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
25,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
24,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
23,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
22,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
21,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
20,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
19,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
18,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
17,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
16,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
15,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
14,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
13,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
12,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
11,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
10,000  MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 9,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 8,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 7,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 6,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 5,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 4,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 3,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 2,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
 1,000   MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMM
Months: J F MA MJ J A S ON D J F MA M J J A S ON D J F MA M J J A S ON D J F MA M J J A S ON D  J F MA M
Years: _ _ _ _ _ _2008 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2009 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2010 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _2011 _ _ _ _ _ _2012
November & December 2011 had 34,353 & 34,024 active editors, then January 2012 had 34,916, and February 2012 had 33,998 (despite being a short month where some editors perhaps had barely less than 99 edits during those 29 days).
The counts of 3,500 highly active editors ("busy" editors), although not shown here, has a similar pattern of stabilizing during 2011. So there is "no massive exodus" either of the busy daily editors, as if work were being left to people who only edit a few times per month. Instead, the core of 3,500 busy editors still tend to edit daily, as they have, on average, for years now. The essay I am writing will contain charts for those 3,500 editors as well as the occasional 34,000 active registered editors. Gotta run! -Wikid77 (talk) 14:44, revised 22:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

These are fairly difficult to read, and the proportional font isn't helping. Why not plot simple bar or line graphs and upload them as images? 71.215.74.243 (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Due to limited time: I plan on creating graph images later. These are just "texting graphs" to explore ways to display the data, with histograms in limited time, by just cut-paste copying some parts of the whole picture to focus on certain parts. I reset the style="font-size:75%" to avoid the proportional spacing. I think I should expand the histogram to include at least 2007, as a broader comparison of the data. I try to allot more time to discuss issues here, and I do not want to seem like I intentionally ignore replies for 8 hours, it is just due to being so busy elsewhere. -Wikid77 22:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

That's an odd interpretation of the data. In early 2010 you could have argued, using the same rationale, that there had been "no massive exodus" because Misplaced Pages had the "solid support of the core average of" 39,000 editors. That was 5,000 (15%) more than now, mate. JN466 10:53, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

No solid support in 2009: But the data in 2009 does not show solid support of 39,000 editors, with those drops in September 2009, December, and February 2010. If the count in December 2009 had retained the level of December 2008, then the pattern would be similar, but it did not (it fell by 2 thousand). The difference now is that December 2011 & 2010 have the same level, plus September 2011 and Feb. 2012 did not fall thousands lower (they stayed at 34,000 editors). It is so obvious (just kidding!). Look for that subtle pattern among those 50 months: where no month in the year drops below December of the prior year. That happened in 2011, and the level stayed above 34,000. However, that stability might be temporary (caused by special efforts to retain editors in 2011), and there might be resumed drops in June/September 2012, losing thousands below the 34,000 threshold. I was just noting "no mass exodus" which stopped during 2011. Ideally, there would slow gains, rather than drops each year. -Wikid77 12:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

While I find all of this very interesting indeed, I'm not sure that roughly eyeballing histograms is a very accurate way of doing this. It'd take a good statistician to propose a completely valid hypothesis test, but in terms of getting our heads around some trends, I'd like to see the slope of the trend line over time. Since we know there is a strong annual seasonal component to the numbers, I'd propose looking at a 12 month trailing moving average as a super easy to calculate first glance at the data.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The Jim Hawkins saga

RE: Alexa Bot

Hello, Jimmy. I left a replay to your suggestion regarding the Alexa bot here.--OsamaK (talk) 06:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Request for Jimbo's opinion on Main Page proposal

Dear Jimbo, about a week ago, I made a proposal to the Village Pump about essentially having a new feature of the main page where we have the "Top 100 articles of the week" for users to edit. The specifics are given in the proposal but essentially by having a discrete number of articles in a fun engaging way, we can make uninteresting topics engaging to the public in much the same way that, say, Horrible Histories inspires children to learn history, or Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego inspires children to learn geography. I can imagine a team behind it much like the OTD or INT to write "short snappy pitches" to catch user's attention and get them in the mood to edit. The fact that they know they edits will be contributed by many others during the week is a major incentive to get involved. I for one know that one of the greatest joys of Misplaced Pages is seeing your edits grow and be altered by other users, and then to edit theirs in return. It will channel new article creation into articles that we know for a fact are notable. It will get newbies or non-editors into the groove of editing. It will make editing cool. Instead of being overwhelmed by the monstrous project, they have a set about of articles to focus their attention on, which I truly feel will get users thinking about resolving major content holes in Misplaced Pages. It is much easier to create an article that expand an already made one, so I think this will really get people involved. Later on, we might have the "50 articles to be created" and the "50 articles to be made that little bit better", just to provide budding editors with that option to test themselves if they so choose. The proposal is still in it's initial stages, and discussion has been almost non-existent for a couple of days now, so I would greatly appreciate your critiques and comments :D. My aim is to prepare an official proposal page.... although I really have no experience in this area. FYI, to make the discussion easier to read, and to therefore encourage passersby to comment (I understand that seeing a great confusing lump of text can deter people from reading/commenting on a discussion), I have split the convo up into its different individual discussions, including the slightly non-relevant ones that for some reason ended up in there.--Coin945 (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

A radical idea; BLP opt-out for all

Every time some borderline notable person complains about their article, we have to have these nasty, drawn-out fights in order to actually get it done...or not done, as that is the regrettable direction that the Jim Hawkins bio is heading. Huge wars over if the person is really notable or what degree of sorta kinda non-notability the person has in order to qualify for WP:BIODELETE, then we have to deal with the spite, both from editors here who see the deletion as a grave travesty and those off-wiki who may be friends of the person or just interested parties.

So rather the same fight over and over about how much of a sliver to open BIODELETE and all requests through, here's what we do.

Throw it open. All the way.

Any living person, subject to identity verification via OTRS, may request the deletion of their article. No discussion, no AfD, just *poof*. In its place is a simple template explaining why there is no longer an article there, and a pointer to where the reader can find information on the subject, a link similar to Template:Find sources at the top of every AfD.

Yes, this is radical and yes "for all" really does mean for all, so as unlikely the chance is, if Barack Obama requested deletion of his article, yes, it will be gone. This is encyclopedia that people come to to find information about a subject. That doesn't mean that that information has to be here all of the time, and I think the actual number of people who would take advantage of this would be so vanishingly small as to be inconsequential. Let the Jim Hawkins' and Don Murphys of the world be at peace, for once. I realize that to many, the Misplaced Pages is a paradise, but we have to face the truth of that matter is that sometimes some people just want to find the exit. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

An interesting idea. Somehow, I can't see that getting approved as policy though... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I am minded to support this idea. This is a serious problem for Wiki - we cannot be seen, as a project, to be putting our fingers in our ears to serious requests by people because of a high-minded idea of 'value' or 'worth'. doktorb _words 20:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose with a side order of WTF? This is a proposal to abdicate any responsibility, because one or two individuals a year get antsy about the content of their articles. I reject any such move, although I certainly will accept that it's meant in good faith, however incomprehensible it may be to me as a historian and journalist; and it's certainly, ummm... bold! --Orange Mike | Talk 20:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support - I have long supported giving people of marginal notability the option of "opting out" of Misplaced Pages. For me, the question was always where to draw the line, and I know that I would draw that line in a different place than others, but I never suspected that anyone would suggest that Misplaced Pages could not do without the biography of Jim Hawkins (radio presenter). I support Tarc's ambitious and futile proposal. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• hell no and this isn't the forum for the discussion. We need to be fair and careful with how we deal with BLPs...but all out deletions for anyone who requests it shouldn't even be considered as an option. --Onorem♠Dil 20:30, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

"it shouldn't even be considered as an option". why not? Do we have a policy on things we aren't allowed to think about? How we decide that something is unthinkable without thinking about it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Clearly I'm offering an opinion. Think about whatever the hell you want to. Offer up whatever ideas you want to. I think this entire argument is a non-starter. If a person is notable, we shouldn't feel obligated to delete their bio just because they ask us to. When it comes to borderline cases, the input might make a difference. This proposal is simplistic and unrealistic. --Onorem♠Dil 20:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'd go along with default to delete for the marginally notable. But this would just be a recipe for newbie biting. Who would like the task of explaining to people that various arrested murderers and war criminals couldn't have wikipedia articles written on them because they had requested it? And then what do we do if a bunch of senior US politicians decide they'd rather have their bios on their own sites and Conservapedia but not here? ϢereSpielChequers 20:37, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - would make life much easier for some editors (and even more exasperated admins), but also for any celebrity or politician wishing to quickly hide any kind of unflattering indiscretion or major scandal? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:42, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Silly nonsense from a Misplaced Pages Review activist. Prioryman (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • No, I think they call themselves something like Wikipedocrats now they have signed up to the all new agenda. Though I'm probably being unfair, we should probably check with the Arbcom members and Oversight members that are active supporters of the Wikipedocracy and hence are themselves promoting Greg Kohs. --Fæ (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

In practice, when I get a complaint from someone who wants their article deleted, I'll look at the page. If the page is not verifiable, then this is easy - I'll delete the page on those grounds. If the page is verifiable, but either not notable or only marginally notable, I will likely choose to delete the page for them. Obviously this involves a judgement call about what constitutes 'marginally notable'. Most of the time no one complains about the deletion, and all is well. If someone does object to the deletion then I'd first let them know why the page was deleted, and then we can go to DRV or AfD as needed. This approach handles most BLP deletion requests fairly nicely. However, there are some articles where the inclusion of the page is important to the project. For these highly visible, people I would not agree with deleting these pages simply because the subject doesn't want a factual, neutral piece (as determined by our consensus process) written about them. Unlike for articles about minor figures, attention to their article should be sufficient to prevent the addition of disparaging material. I'd argue that the desires of the readers looking for this article outweigh the desires of the subject. It would be impossible to make this site work if we cared only about the subjects of pages, or only about the readers, or even only about the editors. A balance has to be struck, and this proposal does not do that. Prodego 20:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Applications for free, full access, 1-year accounts from HighBeam Research officially open

Just a reminder that 1000 free accounts are available from the internet research database HighBeam Research. HighBeam has full versions of tens of millions of newspaper articles and journals and should be a big help in adding reliable sources--especially older and paywalled ones--into the encyclopedia. Sign-ups require a 1-year old account with 1000 edits. Here's the link to the project page: WP:HighBeam (account sign-ups are linked in the box on the right). Sign-up! And, please tell your Misplaced Pages-friends about the opportunity! Cheers, Ocaasi 20:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)