Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:03, 30 July 2004

Sanctification

Thanks, Geogre, for adding a useful point to Sanctification. I thought your prose was fine, no need to apologize. Cheers, Opus33 15:12, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• It's certainly one of those areas where people have beliefs so strong that they can't hit NPOV, even if they want to. In particular, it's one of those magic words that means a lot more to the speaker than to some listeners.

Vicar of Bray

George, thanks for your valuable additions to Annotated Lyrics to The Vicar of Bray. I didn't want to mussy the waters on VfD, but I'm not particularly strong on Stuart Age history, so please don't hesitate to correct any misapprehensions I may have inadvertently introduce in my gloss of the song. orthogonal 18:37, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Deleting from Cleanup

Hi Geogre. Thanks a lot for helping to fix articles on the cleanup page! However, it would be really great if you could delete the entries on the cleanup page- just to help keep it as small as possible. Just a friendly reminder, so please don't take it as an insult or anything :) -Frazzydee 23:10, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• You bet. Normally, I do delete. When I don't, it's because I think that the article could benefit from other cleaners coming along behind me. CU is getting extremely ponderous, and that's either because more good people are nominating bad pages, or because WP's increasing popularity is leading to more bad people writing pages. I suspect the latter as well as the former.

Vicar Puritains

Geogre, you spell "Puritans" "Puritains", a form I've never seen. What's the origin and significance of this form? (And oh dear, I apologize, I've been calling you "George" not "Geogre") orthogonal 18:00, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake, then. As for the spelling (the orthography, so to speak), it's actually a spelling used by the Puritans themselves. Throughout the 17th and 18th centuries, you see the spelling more often than "Puritan." One thing that happens to me is that I can internalize period spellings. I think that "Puritain" was an acceptible British spelling into the 20th c., because I'm relatively sure that I've seen it in secondary literature. It is, regardless, just a spelling mistake. (I've got it better than my friends who were Middle English specialists. Those poor folks ended up entirely unable to spell anything).

Yeah, I saw the "Puritain" redirected to "Puritan". If you would, please consider adding to the "Puritan" article a brief para. on the alternate spelling; I can see this helping both readers of period works and transcribers, such as those over at Distributed Proofreaders. And once gain, you're doing a great job on Annotated Vicar. One problem with Wiki is the lack of articles that giving a broad overview and tying together more specific article; Annotated Vicar, thanks to you, is really becoming both an overview of the period as well as a specific gloss of the song. orthogonal 00:13, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. I really love the early 18th century. Given a choice, I'll talk about it all day (and these days I spend all day talking about instructional technology, so that's no fun). I've put a poorly worded paragraph at the beginning of "Puritan" about the two spellings. I actually tried not to read the "Puritan" article. If I read it, I'll end up reaching for the Cross Dictionary of the Christian Church Hill's Experience of Defeat and other things lying around. (My subjects of study are all Establishment figures, and it's hard to escape taking sides in the polemics they fought.)

Question: The VfD vote seems to have gone, generally, for "merge with Vicar of Bray." This is possible, though it will make the VoB pretty long. Is that the direction this should go?

Damn it! Now I've read the Puritan article. I knew I shouldn't have done that. It's a greivous article.

BTW, for anyone reading this, I'm now trying to write some of Puritan. I'm having to go slowly, because it's an enormous topic...staggeringly huge, and the present article is far too short. Let anyone who wishes complain about article length: it just plain gots to be long. Geogre 01:09, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• I understand your reluctance to read Puritan; I find vetting articles I'm too close to a bit exhausting. (Take a look at the Dolphin Brain history for an example -- and that was tangential.)

As far as merging Annotated Vicar (AV) with Vicar of Bray (VoB), I'm not particularly concerned. I think (especially with the work you've done) that we can argue that the person The Vicar of Bray, though made famous by the song, is a different entity (not to mention it's a matter of debate which historical Vicar was the song's model). Also, the use of VoB as population genetics metaphor deserves to stand out, and it won't if the two pages are merged. (It's actually via that metaphor that I first heard of the VoB, which made me notice and listen to the song, which lead me to enjoy the song -- I love songs of political satire --, which lead me to share my joy by glossing it here, and thus our present mess. ;-) ) -- orthogonal 02:16, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's a good argument. I'm not prepared to document it, but I believe that "Vicar of Bray" was a tag as early as 1673. I know that Dryden was taunted with it, and I think that it goes way, way back, possibly to that first Vicar, the Elizabethan one, and was rediscovered in the late Restoration and then amplified in the very tuneful 1720-30's. (It was tuneful, too. You'd be surprised.) Geogre 02:19, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I've been listing to the song, on continuous repeat, since I started the article. For several hours a day. Can't say that it's period instruments, but... -- orthogonal 02:31, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Then you don't want to ever hear "Lillabullero." The thing is a historically famous ear-worm, and its lyrics require as much annotation as "Vicar of Bray." Like VoB, it's a song about the religious convolutions. Essentially, it's an English taunt of the Irish. The song is considered by Irish people as just slightly less offensive than the Deutschland Uber Alles, and yet the BBC World Service still uses it as its segue music because it's so damned infectious.

Oh, and for Cheney Bush Ashcroft, it beggers the imagination. I concluded some months ago that we've got a parody-proof administration. Anything you'd make up as a reductio ad absurdum, they'll do in seriousness. This came to mind when I was reading Catch 22. Milo Minderbinder says, in that book, "I think the government ought to get out of war altogether and leave it to private industry." That's funny. That's supposed to be shocking. Now we find that most of what's being done in Iraq has been contracted to private industry! Instead, I have a definition: "Buch/Cheney: A strange creature with one head, two rectums, and known for practicing autosodomy."

Sid McMath

Thanks for the comment. Any NPOVing of that article is a major undertaking. RickK 20:47, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

George--Thanks for your and Rick's suggestions for cleanup on Sid McMath. I assure you there are no copyright violations. All the writing is my own except for the brief attributed quotations. This is not hagiography but fact. While certainly not a "saint", the guy was as close to Olympian as a pol can get. Rather than peck at the paragraphs piecemeal, I am "sandboxing" my revisions per your suggestions and will submit them together. 'Am away preparing for trial (yes, another lawyer) and doing some fishing for a few weeks but will try to submit by end July. Thanks for the help. Best, Elia.

You know, I wrote to RickK much the same thing about McMath's qualities. I told him that McMath is as close to a saint as we get in southern politics. He's also the inspiration for Clinton, or cited by Clinton, I believe. Anyway, I did some little editing of the language, more to tighten it up, since it had been listed for POV cleaning. My first reaction on reading the article was, "Well, yeah, but it's true!" My only recommendation, if you'd rather not have me reading over your shoulder, is that you indicate a little bit of the fact that McMath was a political fighter. He wasn't purely altruistic, although I think he was virtuous. Also, some of the language about handsomeness and great victories, etc., will set off people not familiar with the status of McMath. Geogre 00:06, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

George-Good advice; will comply. 'Just checked here before heading out the door, so I won't be getting back to you for several weeks. I will look back here before submitting my revised copy for any further ideas or suggestions you and Rick may have. Thanks. -Elia 6/30/04, 1320 ET

Line numbers in Annotated Vicar.

Geogre, I deleted your line number "5" because I thought it was an inadvertent typo. If we're going to keep the line numbers, can we find a way to set them to the left of the line's beginning, or in some other way distinguish them from the text itself? Even realizing now that they're intentional, they look wrong and distract from reading the line. (Admittedly, I've been playing the song on continuous repeat pretty much since I first started the article two and a half days ago, and reading the lines as I listen. And they say my life's not exciting.) orthogonal 00:23, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I saw that they were a nuisance. I thought that having them would be a way to cut down on the number of amendations at the bottom of the page, but heck if I know how to code the spaces without going into table/indents. I think the best strategy might be hard coding spaces and putting the line numbers to the right of the lines. I'll try that and see if it's still ugly.

Nope, I see that they won't work on the right. They also won't work when I tried to be clever and do a new

5: line like this. Oh, pish. I'll edit the notes instead to try to avoid line number references or wait for a good idea. (Sound of wind blowing across the praire.) Geogre 00:59, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How back linking back to the line rather than giving the number, like the footnotes but in the opposite direction? That's easier on anyone who hasn't memorized the whole thing along with the each line's number. orthogonal 01:05, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

More concerned by the VfD debate now. I don't believe in arguing there. My vote's in, and that's that, but folks need to read the article before they vote. (I also think this is not a Wikibooks article, because there is no literary analysis. It isn't an explication of a poem. It's an annotation of the history/politics.) Anyway, a consensus there seems now to be blob-o-text/blob-o-notes, repeat. That would seem to suggest stanza/note, stanza/note.... That solves some problems, but I don't think it makes a readable or singable text. Geogre 12:53, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gordon Freeman

Errm, the G-Man doesn't talk about it when Gordon die, it actually *is* a message in the screen. I'd be able to extract it from the strings file, so.. Mind reverting changes? -- towo 09:13, 2004 Jun 30 (UTC)

• Not at all. I was trying to shorten and clarify the sentence (which had an independent clause in a parenthesis and switched from indirect to direct discourse), but I didn't remember the game (more of a Baldur's Gate person, myself).

gulliver

You made the same mistake I made last week: you put your vote for deletion (for gulliver) on the VfD page itself, rather than the gulliver deletion page which is automatically incorporated into the VfD page. That is, you used the link rather than the "Discuss this" link. I move it, but then there will accusations -- technically correct -- of a "forged" vote. -- orthogonal 02:46, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Aha. Well, I was just too damned eager. I was the first vote, and I think the nominator put the nomination in in a funny way at first and then fixed it. I'm happy to see that it's going to be a landslide vote, so the loss of mine won't matter anyway. Thanks for the move. I couldn't figure out what that was about with your vote getting removed earlier by Wile E., but it seemed like something technical. Geogre 11:41, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) (I'm waiting for someone to observe that any kid who handed in a book report about a N64 character deserves what he gets. I feel the same way, secretly, but I know for a fact that Misplaced Pages is starting to get used by high school classes.)

Precise naming

Thanks for your diligence about avoiding ambiguity. You may have seen someone else take issue with song-related cases, but i thought it worthwhile to provide precise references. & for yr attention, i've copied here (emphasis added here) an entry i added to on WP:CU:

Kill or Cure (film) wikify, expand + Moved from Kill or Cure to clarify namespace use and disambig from common use of phrase. Still needs significant CU. Geogre + Moved back. Per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (precision)#Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (last sentence), "The basic rule is that, unless you are absolutely sure that a related usage deserves or has an article, no disambigutation is necessary." This is established WP practice, even tho Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions#Be precise when necessary is less clear. Jerzy(t)

I've notice you are a steady contributor & responder to CU entries. Thanks, and hope you'll continue. --Jerzy(t) 19:42, 2004 Jul 8 (UTC)

• • I don't have a problem with not making moves, but there are certainly occasions where I know that another entry is warranted, though it does not yet exist. For example, the first person to write about a favorite school in Windsor, Ontario named Winchester will get that name space. The problem is that, even though at that time no other Winchester entry exists, others are more notable. It seems to me that it isn't a case of calling for a disambiguation page, so much as avoiding future needs to go to VfD and ask for a redirect by being as precise as possible in advance. If "Hound Dog" (a recent example from CU) is in there as the Elvis/Thornton song, then we know that Hound dogs are going to hit against that. A little prevention is worth a lot of cure, here. In "Kill or Cure," it's a common phrase for medicines, as I'm sure you know. Is there a song by the title, a book, a political program in Austria? I don't know, or I'd have objected straight off, but I see value in being clear in advance. I'm very concerned about schools at present: they're simply a mess. I'm also concerned about novels and their film adaptations. Then we have song titles. If it's WP policy to be laissez faire and wait for a problem before fixing it, I'll comply, but I cannot agree that our taxonomy should be catch as catch can. Geogre 20:43, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sex position quote

You wrote on the VfD page on Spoon sex position "To me, this is no different from a recipe for a food for which I haven't the ingredients at hand." LMAO, can I have this quote unattributed under GFDL? That made my morning. Have a nice day. --Buster 18:51, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)

• You betcha. Do I have to utter magic words, or can I just tell you that I hereby release those words and quote to the public for free use, with or without attribution exactly as it pleases? Geogre 00:40, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

re: Concealed ovulation

Thank you for your comments on Talk:Concealed ovulation. You raise some very good points. I tried to address a few of them based on my limited knowledge of the theory. I would appreciate your continued thoughts and feedback as you have time. It's an article that still needs a lot of clean-up. Rossami 22:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Geogre, I had no idea you'd listed my screed on VfD -- indeed, I missed the whole VfD debate. Of course the article needs cleanup, it was written ex tempore on a tight Slashdot discussion deadline. But the concepts are supported by serious research by a variety of scientists of diverse specialties. -- orthogonal 00:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• First: yipes, orthoganal. I didn't check authorship to see that it was yours. My apologies. I got the nickname "ge-ogre" for a certain pugilism that I can adopt in academic matters.
• Second: my objection is so much the verb of the title that I can hardly say. I do know that there is anthropological research on the matter. I believe that it's there, but I'm personally getting more and more suspicious (and possibly polemical) about evolutionary biology. It's not because I think it's wrong, but more that it's unverifiable and nondisprovable. It ends up, as I've said elsewhere, saying, "Whatever is, is right." One can look at any behavior or fact of the present and construct an evolutionary biological scenario that would explain it. In that way, it can be like Freudianism: once you possess the approach, you can make everything fit. For example, if male standards of beauty are for thin, then we can say that thin represents wealth, and if they're for fat, we can say that that represents wealth, and if female selection appears to be based on leks, we can say that the cell phone waggling in bars is a lek, or that the drug use is a lek, or that the car is a lek, or, well, whatever we wish.
• Third: I mean no disrespect with my skepticism, nor do I mean to suggest that it came without foundation. All along, I've wanted there to be a good discussion of human fertility and the Anthropology and evolutionary biology explanations of it. I didn't like the implicit hide and seek of "concealed" fertility.
• If no one takes offense, I think that a sort of skeptical (and that's how it's intended, just as skepticism) line on the discussion page is more than enough. The POV of the page is not in dispute. Nor are the facts.

I apologize again if I've given offense. In political and social matters, you'll be hard pressed to find someone farther left, but on academic matters I tend to be more conservative than most. Geogre 00:38, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh, no offense taken. Your apology, if it's even needed, is of course accepted. And yes, evolutionary biology can, at its worst, consist of constructing Just So Stories. But a lot of it provides illumination that would not otherwise exist, and some of its conjectures (e.g., on the universality of emotional as shown in facial expressions, names for colors, sexual attraction) have been validated by subsequent research by researches unaffiliated with evolutionary biology.

And understand I wrote the "essay" in some thirty minutes, from memory -- and thus some claims are overstated and none are supported with cites. Still, I felt that it would -- with much work -- serve as a basis for a wikipedia article, especially with the aid of more diligent editors. And let be clear: I'd not implying any Intelligent Design. ID is bunkum and crypto-Creationism. -- orthogonal 00:57, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As I've indicated on that Discussion page, now, I didn't think you were implying Intelligent Design, but I was and am concerned that coincidental mutation that serves an adaptive goal must never be confused with being because of the goal. The closer evolutionary theory gets to behavior, the more uncomfortable I get with it, because humans keep demonstrating a mutability that defies all categorization.

I hope the Slashdotters got it. If it doesn't have a Groklaw reference in it, I'm not sure... :-) (Yeah, I'm a reader of /., usually.)

Also, though, I went to a Ph.D. program where the official line was, "We make American scholars" (with that last word lasting about 8 syllables). The emphasis was academically conservative (fact fact fact history history fact, interpretation on your own time, Buster), where all innovations were subjected to intense scrutiny -- not because of the "culture wars," but because of the old, European, positivistic emphasis on "rigor." Detractors said "rigor mortis." Stanley Fish said, "Soon, all English Departments will be obsolete, except for that museum over in Chapel Hill." The CH response was, "We ought to make that our motto." Geogre 03:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Good evening. I think your suggestions for an opposition section would be good for this article. I tried to incorporate your thoughts and realized I was doing a bad job so I took them back out. I'll keep trying to research it though. Thanks again. Rossami 23:04, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Received Pronunciation

Sadly, having to be politically correct forbids the answer I would like to make. However, glad my warped sense of humour is appreciated somewhere Giano 21:52, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Now I'm wondering what non-PC thing it is you want to say. At any rate, it was a good laugh. Geogre 01:58, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC) (with an advanced degree in unemployment)

Spires

Glad I came here if only to read the above message, which I think you meant to leave on my talk page not your own!

I read the Spires page earlier and thought what a good job you had done on it. Antoni Gaudi, in Barcelona and Salisbury Cathedral spring to mind but that's about it on spires, I don't want to spoil what you have written which sits quite well. All I can think of is a long list of 'spires I have seen' and their architects.I will have a think and add something at the week-end.

Incidentally, I am always PC correct, all Sicilian males are! Giano 21:00, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ahem, I did live in da Bronx (in that area of it, in fact; found out later that I had two "capos" living on my crime-free street), and I will take your word for it and assume that those guys were only pretending to be Sicillian. :-) Thanks for the compliment on the Spires. Geogre 21:47, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It must be something to do with the American influence on us, we are all good church-going boys who love our Mamas and treat our neighbours with respect when in Sicily Giano 06:19, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Spire as promised: I've added a few words (quite a few actually) on spires. Tried to make it a follow on to your work, as I think its great as it stands. Delete what you don't like, (Personally I hate spires) the lot if you want - I don't take offence, but probably have a cousin in your street! Giano 19:28, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Giano: Fantastic work! Sheesh. You put in massive amounts, and a new picture. It looks great. Seriously, I think it's "Featured Article" good now. (I'm not a fan of spires that much, either, and my discussion, with the obelisk, is kind of out of order, since the funerary/obelisk stuff came later than the Gothic stuff, but that's a matter for a later edit.) I did a little language stuff, but it wasn't much. Thank you for the great stuff. Dem guys on my street were all in one *family* as it were. Very interesting. Geogre 21:29, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Geogre: Yeh, I'm pleased with that too! The obelisk stuff is fine - all comes from the same theory. Wish I had a few photos, all the one's I have, have miserable looking kids posing in front! Give me a call, we'll team up again sometime. I'll call the guys off!! Giano 07:20, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

P.S: I did'nt put the second photo on, some-one else slipped that in, while we were talking, perhaps with luck they will add some more Giano 07:30, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

IRC

You ever go to Wikipia IRC chat? Misplaced Pages:IRC channels -- orthogonal 00:57, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No. I'm going to sound ignorant, but I've never done IRC before. I know there's a wiki mailing list, but I figured that would eat that :15 a day I don't spend on Misplaced Pages already. :-) How does one do the IRC? Never mind. I'll click the link & see what happens. Geogre 01:11, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you're using Mozilla or Firefox as a browser, the Chatzilla extensions free, clan, and easy to use. -- orthogonal 01:15, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am, indeed, using Firefox. Off I go to mozilla.org, then, and plug-in Hell (maybe not...they've been getting better about it). I ought to have the thing going by tomorrow, if'n I don't get dazzled by the pretty lights (or end up thinking myself in possession of a clever retort on VfD and thereby blow the time). Geogre 01:18, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And now I've gotten it. Don't know about this...never used IRC before. It'll be installed next time I start up Firefox, it says. Geogre 01:38, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Cool. Drop me a note next time you're on, orthogonal. It's pretty easy to use, it seems. Thanks for the tip. Geogre 04:05, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

God of the gaps

I've re-written this page so that it now makes sense(?). In the circles I move in on the web, it is quite widely used. See what you think. Noisy 14:42, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Looks good now. What's been nagging me, and I can't say for sure and so didn't want to edit it, is that I think I've heard the term used outside of the polemic as a reference to a vague "something" that rules the interstices. "This is being proposed (whatever theory it is) as a god of the gaps," for example. That's why I thought the origin of the phrase was journalistic. I once knew someone who was taking a practical electronics class. His teacher, explaining the energy state jump in transistors, said, "It's elves pushing electrons." His point was that the exact "why" was a huge topic and that all they needed to know was that it happened, and elves were as useful to the class as quantum theory. I've heard "god of the gaps" used in that way -- as a kind of "mysterious thing, and all we need to know right now is that it happens, but we'll keep investigating." Good work on the article. I'll add a section, if you wish, on the "mysterious force" usage. Geogre 15:20, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard that other version, which is why I changed the slant of the article away from that viewpoint. The debate between creationists and their opponents is very fraught, and catch-phrases such as this are handy to sling around to dazzle the eye, rather than dealing with fact and logic. It is very journalistic, I agree, but the target audience in that sort of debate deals at that level. It does, however, put the idea that the realm of religion is shrinking across quite succintly. Noisy 16:10, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Schools on VdF

Re your comment on the wikipedia "line" on school articles in the Sidney Lanier Middle School, Houston discussion, Geogre: did you my see my reply about this in another school discussion, Freetown Elementary School? I don't think there is a high school/middle school line, and I thought jgm's reply to me was cogent. The subject just goes round and round :-(.--Bishonen 15:37, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• I missed it, but I will look now. The line is informal and consensual. I know there isn't a policy, and I'm thinking about contacting folks and trying to find out where I can go to propose a criterion for schools. I'd like for it to be on notability, insist on naming strategies, and have notability include alumni only if the school was vital. If no one else had ever graduated from Eton, it would be notable because Orwell is writing in hatred of it in several places. Even that, though, will go round and round. I also want it clear whether we vote on what something is or what it could be. People tend to go off and do independent research on VfD listings and vote "keep" because an article could be written. That's why I review (and change my votes) on the days that entries are set to roll off the list. If these people have fixed the articles, fine. If they haven't, I still vote delete. Geogre 16:47, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Logo

Hi,

I need a vectorgraphic logo with the French text for printing T-shirts for the French local chapter. Here are the instructions i got from the printer . Yann or yann (at) forget-me (dot) net . Thanks for your help. Yann 16:47, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for fixing my userpage problem, Geogre. --Bishonen 18:29, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No problem. Can't have you going around with a redlink. Geogre 19:35, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Constantia Jones

Just thought you might like to see my findings at Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Constantia Jones. Never mess with a family historian... -- Graham ☺ | Talk 23:43, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• • Whoa. Thanks a ton. I only claim a few years and only England, but I do rather know that period as well as I could be taught it, and the whole thing set me on edge. It was such patent nonsense, but, of course, we were put into a position of trying to prove a negative. "Prove it didn't happen," in the face of people who have Hollywood understandings of the 18th century. What a mess! Because people are not changing their votes, I think the best move would be if the article were speedy deleted for being patently false information. If it survives (which it currently will do), then there will have to be a dispute message on it and a long-ish disproof on the Discussion page. All of that would amount to saying, "Dear reader, the article you have just read is untrue." Geogre 01:32, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Listen, I don't doubt your knowledge of the time period (presumably 1720–50, under Walpole), but Linebaugh makes the argument (p. 147) that this person was notable for illustrating that it wasn't so uncommon for prostitutes and women to be hanged (over 80 at Tyburn, for a variety of offenses). There were others, of course, but he chose Constantia Jones and a couple others for purposes of demonstration, and the story certainly tickled me enough to write up an article about her. If you dispute the conclusions of significance as presented in the article, you're welcome to edit the page. But if I may ask one thing, please don't dismiss an article as "patent nonsense" because it describes an incident of which you were previously unaware. Forgive me for saying this, but that can seem a little pretentious. Wikisux 06:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• • The article requires far more information. I suspect, given the fact that she doesn't show up in any of the records for Tyburn, that either you are giving out the nonsense or that Linebaugh was. Someone is very wrong. Further, writing up the article without a date of execution puts the rest of the world in a position of having to demonstrate a negative or of supplying this information. As written the article is nonsense. As written editing it requires people to go get the exact same book to supply what you did not. You can assume it to be pretention or not, but the article should have failed the VfD vote. Since it passed, largely on quick votes from people who, I think, were looking at the writing rather than the facts, there is no other way except for people to go get exactly the same one book to supply the defecit or to nominate for a speedy. That's why I said 'nonsense.' Those are the grounds left. I also ask why, in all the time on VfD, you never came back to be helpful and explain, either in the article or in the voting, the context. BTW, 80 in the whole line of Tyburn does make it uncommon. I know there is this welter of idiotic penal history going on right now. What year did she get hung? Just give us the year, and we can confirm it. Geogre 13:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) P.S. Note that my specialty is more 1680-1745. The Walpole era is a strength. That's why I kept asking for the date of the execution.
  • Also, if Linebaugh, as you say, picked Jones out of a line up as an example, then there is no notability to this particular execution. The information, therefore, if it must be included, would be in Execution of women. Geogre 13:54, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Wikisux, you have done a great job of improving the article. As it is now, I really don't have much of a problem with it. The problem of whether it's true (see Graham's point about lack of Newgate records) remains, so it's likely that Linebaugh was pulling this example either from thin air or got his details wrong. I can sure argue the conclusions he draws, and I stand in serious opposition to history by anecdote -- something he's guilty of, IMO. I consistently change votes when articles get improved. I'm not as opposed to this article, though I still think it's not significant. Geogre 14:44, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi mate, I'm afraid I've had to concede to Wikisux on factual accuracy because I found a reference (see Talk:Constantia Jones) that shows she actually existed. It also gives an execution date for her, which I've included in the article. However this reference still does not provide proof of any bias against prostitutes in 18th century London as it only shows her crime as pick pocketing: harsh laws certainly, but no mention of anything else. That part of it is going to be very hard to prove one way or the other. I have changed my vote to a very weak keep (and it is a very weak one) simply because my only objection beforehand was that she was fictional. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 16:56, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

With a reference, and an actual date of execution, I have less trouble with the factuality of the article. It was still irresponsible to create an article in the form it was. I still don't see notability of the figure, and I would argue that there wasn't any bias against prostitutes. The numbers of prostitutes taken in is simply staggering. They weren't hung. She was hung for theft. Thieves got hung. Petty thieves didn't. 300 pounds is substantial. In the US, $500 makes "grand theft," which is a felony, so 300 pounds would pass that value. In other words, I think it's not notable, but I won't call it BS, if it has facts. Thanks for digging & finding a ref. Geogre 19:11, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi, wow... thanks for your contributions to CJ. I think you're probably right that it's more illustrative than significant, but I really learned a lot from reading your changes to the article (is it weird that I'm totally fascinated by this subject?) Anyway, great work. And thanks for the benefit of the doubt. :) Wikisux 20:41, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Latest de novo articles

Love the new articles, great work there, Geogre! I've remembered the book on Jonathan Wild that I was rambling on about: Gerald Howson, Thief-Taker General (1970), a real classic but out of print and not easy to find in libraries, either. But I'll check as soon as I get back to see if I've still got it (I've a bad feeling about having lent it to somebody), and if it's there I'll mail it to you. How're you doing there? Any more news?--Bishonen 07:24, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• • Cool. Thanks for the titles. You remembered the book *and* the author? I can never hope for my memory to get more than 1:2. Well, news.... My brother called, and things are dark, but there is no real news. It's "could you move in 30 days" at present. Geogre 13:11, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What's that singing?

Singing "Happy happy joy joy"? How come? I hope that's not a song of sarcasm. --Bishonen 19:03, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)