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Name (part 94)

How about "Praha Hlavní railway station"? This has the advantages that it

• includes the words "railway station" for people who don't like "nadrazi".
• includes the key part of the official name, which will be needed by anyone who wants to find out more about the station, or to actually use it
• is unambiguous.
• reflects the English-language WP:COMMONNAME we can WP:VERIFY from WP:RS in industry, books, local English media, and international media.
• matches the local common name.
• avoids using a contrived description instead of a name
• avoids creating a Misplaced Pages-only neologism
• is consistent with the approach taken for similar railway stations in Germany (all those Hbfs), Italy, Slovakia, Poland, France, Hungary etc.
• is intelligible for English speakers (OK, so English-speakers who have never been to the Czech Republic might not know what "Hlavní" means, but they won't know what "Holesovice" or "Masarykovo" mean either. Southern Cross is less than obvious to outsiders, while countless London commuters survive without knowing much about Dominican friars.

Wheeltapper (talk) 22:02, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I certainly like this name, at least in the sense that if I was chief naming dude for Czech Railways I would be partial to it. If you have seen other station names, you can figure out that the first word is the city name, even you have never seen the word "Praha" before. This represents a big improvement on the current name. You link to a guidebook that use Praha-hlavní nádraží and to railway schedules that use "Praha hl.n." But neither of these support the idea of splitting "hlavní" and "nádraží", treating as one as an integral part of the name and the other as a translatable descriptor. However, I did find an example in Google Books here. Kauffner (talk) 07:58, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thomas Cook's European Rail Timetable uses "Praha hlavni"
• Railway Gazette International uses "Praha Hlavní station"

A name that some wp:rs use strikes me as a better choice than one that none use. Wheeltapper (talk)

• The worst suggestion so far. It fails to use the English term for the city and fails to treat the station as a proper noun. Either we use the Czech name for the station, or we use an applicable English name which follows English grammar. Arsenikk 23:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Surely it is hardly going to surprise anyone that something in a non-English speaking country has a non-English name? I'm not sure why it fails to treat the station as a proper noun - can it get more proper-noun-like than using its name? It also seems to fit with (British) English grammar; <location> <specific title> is a common format for station names (London Victoria etc). Who would actually benefit if we did invent a new name which only Misplaced Pages uses? 22:03, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I can agree that a non-English speaking country has a non-English name. However we are not living in that country, we are using (living in) the English wiki. The non-English name used by the non-English country is under normal circumstances translated into an English version. An example would be the 'Česká republika' which was translated into 'Czech Republic'. Go figure out why. Flamarande (talk) 01:12, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm getting sick of these patronising messages in these discussions constantly reminding us that "this is en.wiki". Yes, we're aware of that. We're aware that Česká Republika has an English name. I have no idea what this has to do with this discussion. Just because a name is foreign doesn't mean we have to translate it. We could comfortably translate Háje to "Groves", Łódź to "Boat" or Divoká Šárka to "Wild Charlotte", but we don't, because those names don't exist. - filelakeshoe 04:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Good work Filelakeshoe. Keep it up.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:51, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Use of tourist guidebooks as sources for naming RS?

There may be (I'm not sure that there is) a problem with over-emphasis of tourist sources in showing that the name in English is Hlavni Nadrazi. Such sources inevitably must give the Czech name for disambiguation to avoid people going to the other station, Praha-Holešovice railway station, and I know from personal experience that the metro doesn't (didn't) have English on the metro Hlavni Nadrazi name. Yet the other approach per Frommer's Prague & the Best of the Czech Republic Hana Mastrini - 2006 "There are four express trains from Prague's main station for 224Kc ($9.30) (trip time: 2 hr... " is simply "main station" no caps. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Naming conventions (geographic names) says not to use guidebooks to establish an English-language name since they may be attesting to local signage. Foreign-language names need to be translated, according to WP:UE. Kauffner (talk) 03:05, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Requested Move:Praha hlavní nádraží → Prague main railway station

It has been proposed in this section that Praha hlavní nádraží be renamed and moved to Prague main railway station. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Praha hlavní nádraží → Prague main railway station – This is a proposal to move a title from a non-English form few readers will understand to a straightforward translation, per WP:UE. None of the words in the existing title can be found in Merriam Webster, American Heritage, Oxford Dictionaries, or even on WordNet 3, which boasts the “largest English dictionary and thesaurus”. So we must conclude that they are not part of standard English vocabulary. This Czech-English dictionary defines hlavní nádraží as “main station.” Radio Prague refers to this station as "Prague's main train station," "Prague's main railway station," or "Prague's main station." So the proposed form modestly adjusts the official usage to conform to Wikistyle. Now that Germany's "Hauptbahnhofs" have been moved to "central stations," I think this is worth trying again. C.f. Berlin Central Station. Kauffner (talk) 15:15, 12 June 2012 (UTC) Addendum: The proposed form gets 48 post-1990 English language GBook hits. Kauffner (talk) 02:20, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Guidelines

• “If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader.” (WP:UE).
• "When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say;" (WP:NCGN) Kauffner (talk) 15:15, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Survey

Oppose this, but I would support a move to Praha Hlavní railway station (which I can tell you is used by the Thomas Cook railway timetable). The name of a railway station should be treated as a proper noun, and the nomination yet again fails to identify the difference between "Prague Main railway station" and "Prague's main railway station". Birmingham New Street station would be correctly described as "Birmingham's main railway station" and surely is by sources. I see no real reason why this should be moved, but not Hlavní nádraží (Prague Metro) to "Main Station (Prague Metro)" - which really would just be stupid (although I wouldn't be against merging the metro articles to the station articles, which seems pretty conventional).

As for Czech stations, I'm apparently the only person actually doing any work in this area, but why not agree on a naming convention - I've been using titles like Praha-Smíchov railway station, Praha-Holešovice railway station - those who've worked in this area before me have been using Strašnická, Můstek and Muzeum, not Strašnice street, Bridge (Prague Metro) or Museum (Prague Metro). My proposed convention would therefore be to translate "nádraží" or "stanice metra", but not what precedes it, because then we'd just be making stuff up. There is English signage all over Praha hl.n., but not one mention of "Prague Main railway station". I think the sentence from WP:NCGN is being taken too far here - the fact is few people will know the name of a station without having travelled there or seen it on a map, whereas it's more common knowledge to know München as Munich (does anyone else find it ironic that this guideline uses the word "autobahn"?)

Finally, Brno hlavní nádraží, Pardubice hlavní nádraží and Bratislava hlavná stanica should probably be nominated here for discussion as well. And FWIW, I strongly disagree with this Cologne Central Station stuff, I see no one has moved anything to Cologne Deutz Fair railway station yet... way to make Misplaced Pages station articles woefully inconsistent.

TL;DR: It would be more productive to come up with naming conventions than randomly RM single articles. - filelakeshoe 15:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thomas Cook also gives "Praha" as the name of the city itself. They have "London • Paris • Munchen • Wein • Budapest • Bucuresti". Tell me this isn't your usage model. Kauffner (talk) 09:11, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Certainly is, not to say that "Praha" is the English name for the city, but to say that "Praha hlavní", "Praha-Holešovice", "London Victoria", "Paris Nord", "Wien Westbahnhof", "Budapest Keleti" and "Bucureşti Nord" are the names of the stations. - filelakeshoe 09:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Give the stations names that don't correspond to those of the cities....to confuse everyone? At very least it misleads readers as to what English-language usage is. The name is either Praha or Prague, but there is no issue of the station having a different name than the city in any language or reference. BTW, should Beijing Railway Station be "Beijing Zhan" or 北京站? Kauffner (talk) 09:50, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
      • No, obviously not 北京站. The question is what station name is given in railway literature, I don't know whether "zhan" is a name or the word for "station". I'm all for translating "nádraží", but I think translating what comes before or after it is setting a dangerous precedent, once I get out to zone 3 of the PID system I expect to be writing Beroun závodí railway station, Nučice zastávka railway station and Kladno město railway station, not Beroun Racecourse railway station, Nučice Halt or Kladno Town railway station. These names do not exist, and "Prague's main railway station" is as much as a "name" as "the subway station next to the national museum" is for Muzeum. Also we don't have to give the city name in the station article, see Gare du Nord. - filelakeshoe 10:07, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
        • Kauffner, what was the purpose of "BTW, should Beijing Railway Station be "Beijing Zhan" or 北京站?" I suggest you strike that through, at least strike through "or 北京站?" In ictu oculi (talk) 01:11, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
• Alternative. Following the normal naming convention suggests this should be Prague Central Station or Prague Central railway station. See Central station. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Praha Masarykovo nádraží (Prague Masaryk railway station) was Praha střed (Prague Central) until 1990. Kauffner (talk) 02:20, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Strongly oppose on the grounds of WP:Commonname and WP:Reliable, but would support Praha Hlavní railway station. WP:UE says "follow English-language usage", not "invent new and potentially ambiguous or even misleading translations if English sources in the real world outside Misplaced Pages use the local name". It has been pretty comprehensively found that English-language reliable sources use the Czech name when naming (rather than attempting to describe) this station in English. Even if we ignore official sources such as

• České dráhy, the Czech railway company: "Praha hlavní nádraží"
• Deutsche Bahn: "Praha hl.n."

and ignore specialist sources such as

• Railway Gazette International (industry magazine): "Praha Hlavní station"
• Today's Railways Europe (enthusiast magazine): "Praha Hlavni Nadrazi" (July 2011, p21)

and ignore travel sources such as:

• Thomas Cook's European Rail Timetable: "Praha hlavni"
• Rough Guides "Praha hlavní nádraží" (The Czech & Slovak Republics, 6th edition, Nov 2002, p57)
• Lonely Planet "the main station, Praha-hlavní nádraží"

there are still sources like

• Radio Prague: "Praha Hlavní nádraží"
• Living in freedom: the exhilaration and anguish of Prague's second spring by Mark Sommer (1992, p31): "Praha Hlavni nadrazi"

WP:TITLE says "Titles are names or descriptions of the topic that are recognizable to someone familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic." Obviously the real name comes under that heading; while someone "familiar with" the subject might be able to guess which station Misplaced Pages had deemed to be "main", "central" would be very problematic. Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness: again, the real name surely fits. Consistency: inventing new names for stations is going to cause huge problems - would Pennsylvania Station (New York City) become New York Main railway station or Gare du Palais become Quebec Central?

The (unreferenced) Central station article looks like wishful thinking rather than a reflection of European reality. If Misplaced Pages can cope without creating new English names for the Arc de Triomphe, Sagrada Família or Reichstag (building), a station which is known by its local name shouldn't be problem. Plenty of us have even managed to use the place with no knowledge of Czech beyond ordering a beer. Wheeltapper (talk) 22:55, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• Question - After reviewing the last attempt to move Talk:Praha hlavní nádraží/Archive 1, and seeing that Google Books gets zero hits with that capitalisation I'd like to ask how capital "M" was arrived at for this proposal? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks, I fixed this. Kauffner (talk) 02:20, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Okay that's an improvement, but doesn't increase the hits much if any. This is by no means an easy move since Prague Central Station should redirect to Praha střed as it was, not Praha hlavní (in Kafka Prague Franz Josef Station), despite what Grandi Stazioni are using on their webpage. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:27, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
      • I would say Prague Central Station, if this must exist, should be a disambiguation for both stations, as Bristol station. - filelakeshoe 19:35, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
        • Yes probably. I was just pointing out that "central/Central" isn't an option, would have to be either Hlavní/hlavní or Main/main. I'm generally in favour of WP:EN when it's being used correctly for things, places, not waved around to anglicize François Hollande etc. But this one really is tricky. There is no common English name, not even close. And yet nádraží in particular isn't helping anyone.
• Oppose. I can't imagine why Kauffner would go looking for place-names in dictionaries - a search guaranteed to yield the fewest results! I just went to RGI (since they're anglophone and they know about railways), searched for articles on Prague, and got results like this and this and this and this and this. I'd be happy with Praha Hlavní railway station though, as that strikes a reasonable balance between clarity, accuracy, and usage by sources. bobrayner (talk) 01:02, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
  • One might think it obvious that hlavní nádraží is not English. But I have found that the obvious often needs to be proven, hence dictionaries. Kauffner (talk) 02:20, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Sure. I didn't find Łódź or Fabryczna in an English dictionary either but I found them in a Polish-English dictionary translated as "boat" and "factory". Boat Factory railway station anyone? - filelakeshoe 19:46, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Railway station names are not forcibly translated even if the place itself has an English name. Praha Hlavní railway station on the other hand would follow sources and consistancy.Agathoclea (talk) 06:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

  To further comment on the "confussing" issue. Mikhail is translated into English as Michael and that is where it redirects to. Nevertheless when used as part of a personal name we don't. But again we might translate his title ie President Mikhail Gorbachev. Agathoclea (talk) 11:01, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

• Strong oppose per Wheeltapper. I travelled many European countries and never heard of any other name for the station than the current one. - Darwinek (talk) 18:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
  • On the train schedules, this station is "Praha hl.n." So the railway people don't expect non-Czechs to be able to handle three Czech words in a row. Kauffner (talk) 02:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Kauffner, I don't know about others but I'm beginning to get a bit tired with some of the arguments you will use in RMs to anglicize things - even when in this case there'd be support for an English common name if we could find one. This argument "So the railway people don't expect non-Czechs to be able to handle three Czech words in a row" ranks with "or 北京站" above; "the railway people" are who? http://czech-transport.com will be some ticket agent with a PC and his girl assistant in a box room somewhere in Prague. And "don't expect non-Czechs to be able to handle three Czech words in a row."? Are we mind readers? Common sense might suggest the exact opposite - clearly to this irrelevant website "Praha hl.n." is something they assume everyone will know. Please come up with some meaningful use in reliable printed sources for an English name (your 48 results are for apostrophe-s 's not for what you've proposed), though too late am now registering an Oppose below. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, but provisionally support Praha Hlavní railway station as per Filelakeshoe, Wheeltapper, Bobrayner and Agathoclea. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

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